Responsibilities HOA Managers Should Not Accept

A homeowners’ association manager plays a vital role in the day-to-day operation of a community. However, there are certain responsibilities that should remain with the board and should not be delegated to management.

----------------

YouTube:  https://youtu.be/-pitl_9YrP0

1 Hour CEU Video Available All Day - OnDemand 1h: 
Jul 2, 2026 at: https://attendee.gotowebinar.com/register/7797773203265607008

----------------

In this discussion, our industry leader panel will explore situations where managers may need to say “no” when requests fall outside their proper role. The conversation will highlight common assignments that blur the line between governance and management.

Understanding these boundaries helps protect both the manager and the association. When roles remain clearly defined, boards can focus on governance while managers concentrate on professional community operations—helping ensure the association functions effectively and responsibly.

PANEL:

David Byrne, Esq. • Ansell Grimm & Aaron, PC • dbyrne@ansell.law • www.ansell.law

Raymond Dickey • AssociationHelpNow.com  • www.AssociationHelpNow.com

Valerie Garcia Giovanoli, Esq. • McCabe, Trotter & Beverly, P.C. • valerie.giovanoli@mccabetrotter.com • www.mccabetrotter.com

John LaGumina, Esq. • The LaGumina Law Firm, PLLC • jlagumina@laguminalaw.com • www.laguminalaw.com

Cynthia Jones, Esq. • Sellers, Ayers, Dortch & Lyons, P.A. • cjones@sellersayers.com • www.sellersayers.com

Practical insights for managers and boards who live this every day.

This content does not constitute professional advice.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Oh, looks like oh, there's Dave. Dave's back. Hello, Ray Dickey from South Carolina, Hudson Valley CAI and Association Help Now. We are covering many states. Responsibilities. Managers should not accept. There's going to be a lot of them. If you require CEUs, use your question feature. Type in, hey, I need CEUs, or just type in CEU. Or type in I need CEUs, please. Whatever you want to type in. It doesn't matter. As long as I get that, I'll know you need CEUs. Also, that question feature is how you stay in touch with us today. We love questions, especially this topic. I'd rather not use what I have. I'd rather have the audience, especially managers, tell me some of the wacky things that you've been asked to do, and I'll throw it at the panel and we'll see what they think. I don't use anyone's names, so feel free to ask whatever you like, but be careful. I could make a mistake, so don't send me anything too top secret. With that being said, let me have our panel introduce themselves with who I see first, and that is John.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Good morning, John Legumina from the Legumina Law Firm in Purchase, New York. We represent Conduminium's homeowner associations and co-ops from Manhattan up throughout the Hudson Valley areas. All right. Valerie.

SPEAKER_05 1:21

I am Valerie Garcia Giovanoli, and I am an attorney at McCabe Charter and Beverly. We're a full service firm for community associations headquartered in Columbia, South Carolina, with an office in uh Mount Pleasant, Charleston, South Carolina as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

Cynthia, did you know that Valerie put criminals in jail? She's a crime fighter.

SPEAKER_04 1:41

I mean, Valerie looks like she could just do that every day.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

Well, she was a prosecutor. I don't think she physically threw him in jail.

SPEAKER_04 1:50

I mean, she probably could. I could probably physically do it too, right? Come on.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Uh Dave. Good morning, everybody. I'll say Valerie must be like really popular with the ethnic day parade thing. She's got the Giovanni. Then I heard Garcia thrown in there. I mean, like, very busy at the very busy when ethnic the ethnic parades come around. It's very busy. We gotta get your own uh we'll get like O'Reilly at the end, and then you'll definitely be uh you'll definitely be tied up for most of the year. Um my name's Dave Byrne. I'm the uh partner in charge of my law firm's uh community associations practice, uh, and we represent condominiums, co-ops and homeowners associations in New Jersey, New York, and Pennsylvania. All right, and Cynthia, thank you so much for being here.

SPEAKER_04 2:35

Thank you, Ray. I'm Cynthia Jones. I'm a partner with Sellers, Airs, Torch, and Lions. We are located in Charlotte. We are a full service community association firm in North and South Carolina, covering anything that those communities need in both of those states.

SPEAKER_02 2:52

Now, Cynthia has warned us that she has a meeting, but she was kind enough to log in for now. So she has to leave about 10 after. So, Cynthia, if I forget and you can't, we're in the middle of something, you can just leave. We'll remember, I'll remind the audience that you had to leave. So, because people would be worried about you if you just disappear all of a sudden. So, um audience, and I love it, it's already coming in. What have you been asked? And you know, we maybe to go through today with just the audience questions. Let's see what happens. Have you it's already come in? This is from the audience. Have you been asked to do dog poop DNA for everyone and check this out when the poop is left? Have you been asked to do DNA poop for everyone for a client or at home? I have dogs at home. You know, I've been asked a lot of crazy things. We will assume that this is in regard. I think most people know this by now that you can have DNA, a DNA database of dog poop, and a lot of associations do it. And if you find dog poop on the on the common property, you can match it, and then I guess you can, I don't know, put together some kind of fine or or contact them or whatever you want to do. Um, John, can a man go ahead. Can a manager is that something? Is there any legal reason why a board could not ask a manager to do that?

SPEAKER_00 4:19

I I think you can do it. Um, I certainly would include it in your management agreement as an additional service that you should get paid for. Because um my initial response was gonna be you know, let the professional do it. There are companies that go out there and do it, but um, you know, unless your state requires a specific license to do it, it seems like something the managing agent could could do if they're if they are qualified and if they could um maintain their database, it would be pretty helpful.

SPEAKER_02 4:55

So I put this under disgusting Valerie. I knew we were gonna run into some disgusting circumstances, so we're right off right off the bat. Here we are. How about managers having to facilitate the picking up? They have to pick up the dog poop, they have to put it in a bag. Should they be expected to touch dog poop?

SPEAKER_05 5:12

Uh I would just second what John said. If a manager is gonna do that, they need to agree that that's uh part of their duties and obligations. I don't know if there's a um a cost uh high enough to get me to do that, but um there are also professionals that do that service um companies that come in and can do that for them. And then the community can help with it as well. Um, I would actually recommend that be a rule and a regulation um so that owners are picking up after their animals and have some type of enforcement remedies in case people are not doing that. But to the point, if the manager agrees to do that, make it part of your contract, get paid for it.

SPEAKER_02 5:50

So, Dave, and by the way, John and Valerie, if I misrepresent something you said previously, when I go to the next panelists, please stop me. I heard so far if the manager agrees to do it. Well, I meant can I can go ahead, Valerie? Did you want to Yeah?

SPEAKER_05 6:04

When I say manager, I mean the management company, because I think it if especially for the bigger companies, they're gonna make a decision for the company as a whole, uh, and their managers are employees. That's the only thing I wanted to specify.

SPEAKER_02 6:16

All right, so I guess there's two parts of this, Dave, right? There's a manager doing it, um, and they get instructions from the management company, which I guess if they have an issue at that point, that'd be between them and the management company. And there's a board communicating to a management company they want this service. Are they different circumstances?

SPEAKER_01 6:35

I don't I don't think so. I don't I don't know that it's like uh an employment related issue to require a manager as part of his or her job to pick up animal waste and then uh uh tag it and uh book it. Like you could make you as part of the manager's job, he or she could be required to clean the bathrooms, I guess. I mean it's unconventional, but I can't imagine you get quality people to do this that job for very long, um, unless you pay them a decent amount of money. Um, I would say that I agree with John's point was a good one. Like, you know, you most at least what I deal with, management contracts have a uh they have a fee and there's a scope of service, and then sort of there's a there's extra stuff that you charge for. So the you you obviously pass on costs for mailings, you charge extra to do mortgage questionnaires, uh, you charge extra to for to have someone appear in court, that kind of thing. I mean, I would certainly I don't see there's not there's nothing unethical or inappropriate about a management company adding that on as a fee sheet, you know, a couple thousand bucks, we'll have our we'll have a guy. I mean, it would be just even their own, even their own person. It wouldn't have to be instead of hiring out a professional company, maybe there's a person for that management company that goes around and does it and you pay 3,500 bucks to do it, you know, whatever the number is.

SPEAKER_02 7:57

All right. I'm gonna play devil's advocate, Dave, and go over to Cynthia. I think it's completely inappropriate. If you want to have a professional setting and have people feel like they're real professionals, I think asking them to pick up dog poop would not be part of their job description. Nothing against people that pick up dog poop, but Cynthia, you see what I'm getting at here? We're trying to have a professional setting. Does that play a role here?

SPEAKER_04 8:18

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. That's exactly what I was gonna say. Can the manager do it? Of course, they can be contracted to do it, but is that the highest and best use for our managers? Absolutely not. Hire a company to do it. The manager should be managing the association. They don't need to be walking around picking up dog poop, they don't need to be putting down pine straw. Let them manage the community. It's not their best use.

SPEAKER_02 8:43

I am I'm not surprised I got two comments on this already. I'm tired of getting photos of dog poop. Yes, I hear this all the time. Let me, oh, there's a lot of dog poop stuff here. Would you need something in the governing documents to do in a DNA dog poop as a requirement?

SPEAKER_05 9:01

Ray, typically the managers are getting pictures of dog poop as a complaint so that they can take whatever their enforcement policy may be, not necessarily to voice to the manager to get out there and pick it up.

SPEAKER_02 9:12

No, yeah, I understand. And then also, I've many managers have told me if people just show up with a bag of dog poop, whether they have DNA testing or not, for some reason it's not good enough to just report to the manager that there's dog poop in the community, they feel it necessary to bring the dog poop in a bag. Um, I don't want to spend too much time on this because it's off topic, but it's an interesting question. Will you need something in the governing docs to do a DNA dog poop as a requirement in regard to the owners? Very quick, John. Can that just be a rule?

SPEAKER_00 9:41

Yeah, I mean, so the so boards have have blanket, you know, like pretty broad authority to enforce the rules and regulations. And if you have dog poop rules, like yeah, this this is part of it. So I don't think you need a specific uh amendment to your government documents. I think it's we could just put in your rules.

unknown 10:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 10:02

Anyone else in the panel think that you cannot just make that a rule?

SPEAKER_05 10:05

I think the if it could be a rule if the animal is going to be in or using the common area. I think it'd be questionable if uh, you know, you had a little teacup chihuahua that you keep in your backyard and you're gonna require DNA testing. I think that would be a lot difficult, a lot more difficult to enforce.

SPEAKER_02 10:20

Well, that's interesting. Dave, what do you think? And New Jersey is would there be a difference you think possibly if someone had the dog on only on their own premises and never took it on the common area? Could they make the DNA as a rule or would they need to do something in the governing docs?

SPEAKER_01 10:34

It would de I mean it would obviously would depend. You're a lot of governing documents, declarations, master deeds, bylaws will will either preclude animals except in the following way, or allow animals without regulation, that that would be a driving force. Uh, but in the end, rules have to be reasonable. And Valerie's right. I mean, if you if if your um if your dog is kept on your own lot in a large HOA project or something and not walked on common property, then the rule might be unreasonable, I gather. I don't know what it is. I mean, you can I don't even know. And also, I don't know how unreasonable it is to get dog DNA. It may be a it may be an expensive, unreliable process. I mean, who's the guy out there that you go to? Is he like on a street corner somewhere and swabs your dog's cheek? I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 11:29

Okay, so Dynthia, I'm gonna you know how I do these LinkedIn shorts. Um you're gonna give me words of wisdom about dog poop. And if it's okay, I'm gonna put your picture, I'm gonna put dog poop, or maybe I'm gonna put a picture of a dog pooping next to you.

SPEAKER_03 11:44

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_04 11:44

Um why do I keep doing this to myself?

SPEAKER_02 11:48

Yeah, I won't do that, but give us your words of wisdom as far as dog poop, DNA testing, owners, private.

SPEAKER_04 11:56

You know, I mean, is it if it's a real bad problem? I have some communities that do do it, they've got lots of common areas, they've had lots of issues, and if they're willing to spend the money to do it, okay, that's certainly something they can do. I'm really with Valerie though. If it's not uncommon area, if you're talking about an owner's lot, I don't like it.

SPEAKER_05 12:17

Cynthia said they do do it.

SPEAKER_02 12:21

I was gonna ask you all how much how much money you've made over the years on dog poop related issues, but I won't.

SPEAKER_04 12:27

You don't want to know.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

It's okay. Um, oh, great question. I'm so glad this person asked it. My old union staff in New York wouldn't even pick up poop or dead animals. The union prohibited that. Spent a lot of time discussing discussing unionized managers. I am not picking up any trash or poop. And with that being said, I will go back the other way. I love this this question, Cynthia, and it actually ends up with a lot of debate sometimes with the audience. Audience, use your question feature. As a manager, could I remove dead geese or dead goose because the company contracted cannot get out for two days? Cynthia.

SPEAKER_04 13:10

Yeah, I mean, look, can you? Sure. But again, should you? Is that is that what you're gonna be doing as a manager? No, that's not really what I want my managers doing. I want them more high-level, but you know, maybe there's somebody else that can come remove the goose for you if you need it done before the two days are up. Who knows? It might be gone in the two days.

SPEAKER_02 13:34

Well, Dave, let's say it's not gone for two days. People keep running it over, and its guts keep getting pushed further and further and further, and it's getting on people's tires. Well, let's just make not make it not that complicated. But anyway, you get the point. Is it all right for a board to say, look, I'm sorry, but somebody's got to go do it, and you're the only person?

SPEAKER_01 13:54

I mean, this there's really two things here. First is we're talking, you're talking to lawyers, so I I don't see anything illegal or you know, if it's in a contract, if it's negotiated, it's nothing I I nothing jumps out at me as being something that is not legally appropriate. But Cindy keeps going back to the point of sort of what do we want our managers to do? And that's really sort of a not a lawyer thing. I mean, she's right about that, meaning that it's like a it's like it is it's like a thing that you would really talk to professionals in the industry about where the marketplace is, what works, can we hire good people if we make them do this? But I don't know that any nothing jumps out at me legal-wise about any of this. You know, it's more like a we really want managers coming in business suits and then going out and picking up dog poop. It just seems odd. But that's not a lawyer claim, really.

SPEAKER_02 14:46

But Valerie, these are gray areas. Not everyone is going to have in their contract, whether you need to or not need to pick up a small dead animal that cannot be picked up because the company contracted cannot do it.

SPEAKER_05 15:01

I don't disagree with Cynthia, highest best use, but um, I think I would commend anyone that would go out there, board member, resident, manager. I mean, it's just the right thing to do, be helpful. It's actually one of the core values of my law firm. And um, I I manage my law firm. I'm a partner here, and sometimes I see toilet paper on the bathroom floor and I pick it up because I'm setting an example for the people underneath me. And if I expect them to do it, then I should be able to do it. So I would commend someone going out there and cleaning it up. Um, I think it helps the entire community. It prevents um you know, maybe vultures start picking on it, uh, it getting smeared at creating some other type of mess, or maybe a pet gets over and starts eating it and gets sick. So I think it it would be helpful. But legally, I Dave's right. I mean, there's no um real legal issues in this. Um my take on it.

SPEAKER_02 15:51

Dave denies us, but don't hire Dave because he leaves pistachio and shells all over the place. I witnessed it. He did not see it. I've never eaten pistachios. I have seen our peanuts or whatever. I witnessed peanuts for sure. Peanuts all over the place. It was terrible. It was very terrible.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

You know, I I think what's interesting about this animal thing too is it's very it's a geographical thing, it's a cultural type of thing. Uh, you know, there you're uh managers that are doing high rises in Jersey City, let's say where I am, there's a if there's a dead, god forbid, I don't know, a dead bird out on the step in front of the building. I don't know that that manager doesn't, but if you're maybe in in the panhandle in Florida or in some other location, it may be a natural thing for people to do the. I mean, a lot of it depends on sort of what what comes naturally. Like the Valerie's saying, it may be natural for some people just to clean up an area because that's just always how they've done it.

SPEAKER_02 16:41

Well, uh, I'll go to John and be devil's advocate here a little bit. I don't know if I agree with Dave 100%. I meet a lot of different high-rise managers, and some of them would probably go out there and pick up a dead bird, and other ones wouldn't go anywhere near it. Um, a lot of different high-rise at different economic levels. But uh John, take us out of this with dead animals. Is it Johnny Carson accident?

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Take us out of here with dead animals.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

That was a dead animal. So if you have a bird strike on a on your high rise in Atlantic City, you just call Ray Dickey and he'll Yeah. Yeah, look at it. Um, yeah, I mean I I agree with everyone, right? It's it's it's you probably can do it unless you have specific licensing issues, or like I'm thinking like you could have a property manager exterminate, right? But you don't. Cynthia's point, like you don't, like it's not really normally part of property management duties, but like if there's like a one-off and you gotta remove a uh dead animal somewhere, you could do it, but it you know, is is it something managing agents normally do now? It's like I it's not in contracts I've ever seen.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

Well, you know, this brings us to kind of a broad concept here, though, John. When you mentioned pest control, my first thing was managers getting in trouble for performing tasks that they're not qualified to do. So, pest control, you need a license and there's chemicals involved. Also, there could be rules, laws regarding the disposal of dead animals that you may not know. You may take that geese or goose and throw it into garbage, and you may be violating some kind of government. So, why don't you run with a little bit how you know a manager for doing a good deed could be held against them?

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Well, geese, let's yeah, geese is a good example because you have, you know, it's not just animal control, you have DEC um requirements. So you can't you can't just go out. I know we have we need J Dave Chesky here, right? Talk about ADL and the eggs, but like there are certain things you can and cannot do. So you know, so that's why you you need to consult the professionals.

SPEAKER_02 18:48

Okay, all right. Let me jump around here and let me get to some of my broad strokes. A lot of stuff coming in from the audience, which I love. Knowing when to say no is part of doing your job well. Anybody on the panel disagree? Okay, good. Dave?

SPEAKER_03 19:05

No?

SPEAKER_02 19:06

Okay, just checking. Um, let's do broad strokes here. The line. If there is a line, I know these are easy questions. And if so, where? Valerie, how can a manager determine where the line is? Maybe they can't.

SPEAKER_05 19:25

Well, I don't think that's like a bright line rule, um, pun intended. But I it goes back to, I mean, the dog poop. You may ask one manager to do it that sign their contract that's beneath them, they say no. And you may ask another who says, Yeah, I'll do it. It's help it helps people out. Maybe that manager believes in going the extra mile. Um they might also um be more valued by the community, but uh I don't think there's a bright line rule to know where the line is on saying no. Um, you could arguably say, I'm only doing what's in my contract. Um, that's a safe place to be uh legally. Um again, um being helpful when the situation calls for it. You know, we usually use some type of uh third-party vendor for this service, but they are not available for a week, and this is not something that um is illegal or requires special licensing. Yeah, sure, I'll go out and help. Or I think earlier we talked about having maybe an a la carte menu for additional services. I'll help, but you know, at this reasonable fee might be a good solution.

SPEAKER_02 20:30

So this is kind of very much on a case-by-case basis because there's so many factors involved. This is a really hard one to do a broad stroke. Anybody disagrees as I move along, just stop me and and I'll I'll go back. Let's get some of these out of the way that are pretty obvious but are important. Dave, relaying legal advice. This one is kind of a tricky one too. Note the word relaying legal advice. Do you know what I'm getting at with this one?

SPEAKER_01 20:55

Yeah, probably. And I would think if you told me this, it would be manager contacts lawyer for opinion on something, and then manager has to relay it back to the board. That's what I would think it is. Right.

SPEAKER_02 21:06

So maybe it's a simple communication. I contact Cynthia. Cynthia tells, well, the answer is no. Well, maybe I can relay that to the board, but maybe Cynthia explains it. I'm not a lawyer, and then I tell it to the board, and I screwed up a couple words here and there. This seems kind of dicey for managers. Dave. Oh, and then you says Cynthia. Well, I was using Cynthia as an example of the lawyer telling me.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

Well, yeah, and I think it's a it's a it's a very big problem when the response is nuanced, which unfortunately a lot of lawyer things are, even uh with with respect to even what we've been talking about. A lot of times the answer's not yes or no, because frankly, board it's not up to lawyers to make decisions for boards. So if a board needs to know whether it can do something, the answer might not be yes or no. It might be, well, you can, but have you done, have you voted? Have you given this notice? Uh, are your motives pure? There's all kinds of different qualifications sort of things that are relevant. So it's very difficult. I from a lawyer perspective, sometimes it's almost you almost have to make those communications uh via email to make sure that um even though they it may be more difficult for the board because it's more drawn out, it'll cover you in the event there's miscommunication down the road.

SPEAKER_02 22:21

Cynthia, Dave used the word nuanced, right? But like I'm not an attorney, I'm not gonna determine whether your commentary is nuanced or not, correct?

SPEAKER_04 22:30

Yeah, I mean, but he had a great point. Like a lot of us, even if we have a conversation with either the manager or the board, we're following up in writing because we want it in writing. We don't want there to be any confusion about what we're saying. Do I want to have a conversation with the manager and have them turn around and try and relay what I said to the board? No, that's why I'm gonna want to send an email to follow up and make sure they've got it in writing so there is no confusion because they're not gonna necessarily know the nuances that we do.

SPEAKER_02 23:03

John, I think this one is important. I don't know why a manager would take this on. I don't know why they just wouldn't communicate it via writing.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

Yeah, so I agree with you. I back in the pre-internet days, it was commonplace to um yeah, I spoke to the attorney as what he said, but it's so easy to just forward an email and have the attorney put it in writing. Uh, I would say 99% of the time that's what I do. Um, even if my clients don't want it, I prefer to have it in my words. Um and as uh probably everyone on this panel will say, you know, a few months could go by, a few years could go by, and someone will say, Oh, you know, like Dave Byrne said this, and then Dave Byrne could say, I'd say no, here's exactly what I said. And you know, if you if you drop a couple of lines and it could be misconstrued.

SPEAKER_02 23:58

Valor, I'll go another angle even further, right? Maybe it's a new attorney, you don't know them, they're not very ethical, and they gave bad advice, you relate it, and they say, I never told the manager that.

SPEAKER_05 24:09

I think if the lawyer does not send the manager an email memorializing the advice given verbally, then the manager can do that, email the attorney and say, We talked about this, this is my understanding of what your legal advice is. I want to confirm that this is a proper understanding before I relay this to the board. Um, and then require that uh attorney to confirm that conversation. Um, without I I agree with everything the panel said uh before me, but I do think it's worth also maybe noting because that this happens to me a lot, and I think managers do this. The managers oftentimes know their boards better than we do. Sometimes we don't haven't ever even met them. Sometimes they may be extremely sophisticated or not sophisticated, or engineers that want more technical details. Um, and so when I relay advice, um the manager may say, instead of forwarding your email, because I know my board, they might want something a little more simple. This is what I'm gonna say. This is this okay. I I think I would recommend to the managers to the extent you are rewording or delivering it in a more simplistic manner to get the attorney's approval of that. Don't do that on your own. Don't say, okay, Valerie, I see your complicated legal opinion. I'm gonna give my own, uh, my interpretation of that opinion to the board.

SPEAKER_04 25:25

Hey, Ray, can I add something to that too that I've heard of happening recently? Sometimes attorneys we give complicated opinions because they have to be complicated. And so we fully understand sometimes they're hard to read. I've heard sometimes to make it easier for the board, instead of changing it in the manager's words, they're taking an email or taking an opinion letter and putting it into AI to summarize what we have said and then providing the summary to the board for them to read. And I just think I'm gonna say be don't do that. Please don't do that, uh, because oftentimes what we're finding is the summary is incorrect.

SPEAKER_05 26:10

And also else, let me piggyback, Cynthia. That's a great point. I piggyback off of that because one, there's a bunch of um opinions now coming out that say when you put something into AI, if it's private, that you've been disclosed attorney client, confidential communication, you've waived it. A manager doesn't have authority to make that waiver. But secondly, there was a case where um in litigation, the court actually required the chat be produced with AI. And so if the manager's putting the attorney's advice on something that may be in litigation into AI, and that somehow comes out in court, that could be disclosed to the other party as a waiver of the privilege.

SPEAKER_02 26:46

Now you guys are getting me off track. All you lawyers are super excited about AI. Oh my gosh, you're just like super excited about it. Cynthia started it. That I know that's a whole other topic, okay? But thank you for sharing.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

The lady, the ladies are bringing the truth. What are you gonna do? They're bringing it.

SPEAKER_02 27:06

Owners don't understand why we don't knock on their doors to talk to them about a violation versus mailing a notice. Also, why don't we go onto private property? People don't understand. I am not fixing toilets either. Can a manager refuse to do it even if it's in the contract? I assume, panel, that would be an issue between the manager and their managing company. Okay. Oh my god, aggravating to no end and the expectations that we have to pick it up. So a lot of people are saying, yes, yes, pick up, pick up, pressure, pressure. What if the board asked the manager to sign the violation and fine letters? Okay, let me read this one from scratch so because it's it's a really good one. What if the board asked the manager to sign the violation and fine letters? Because the board doesn't want to be harassed or threatened. Cynthia.

SPEAKER_04 28:00

Oh man, uh, I think if you're doing, I mean, I don't want just the manager signing it in their name. I mean, a lot of times the obligation for the violations and the specific process for violations is on the association itself. Can the manager do it as the agent for the association? Yeah, probably if their contract allows them to. I don't have a problem with that, but that should they just sign Cynthia Jones? No, the association itself is the one enforcing those covenants. So the they can do it as maybe the agent, but that's it, not in their own name.

SPEAKER_02 28:35

I have their name, Dave. Why not, like Cynthia saying, why not just put ABC Association or something? Why do you have to put anybody's name on there? You can have contact somebody afterwards, but you don't you don't.

SPEAKER_01 28:45

I don't think it, I don't think any of that any of this is for a lawyer to to worry about. Um I mean, I don't uh does anybody sign any anyway at this point, uh, anyway? Uh it and also I think I've seen letters that just say sincerely board of trustees or something. I mean, I management companies, I don't know that I've ever seen a management company say like, make sure you take your garbage in by four o'clock, sincerely manager. Uh you know, I mean, I I don't know, maybe not. Maybe I have, I'm not sure I don't think about it.

SPEAKER_02 29:14

Uh John or Valerie, anything to add?

unknown 29:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 29:17

Just manager sign them, and I'm I think that's totally fine. I think there's smaller communities and smaller management companies here in rural rural areas. Wow, that's a hard word for me to say. Um and um they sign it because I think they know most of the community, they're at the meetings, and um, but they they're always very clear in the body that the board of directors are per the association's policy, blah, blah, blah. It's very clear that it's not I am not finding you, I am not finding that you violated the covenants. I'm just the messenger, I'm the manager. Contact me if you want to resolve it, kind of thing. Um, and they serve as the liaison, but I've just make that note because uh some of my clients do sign them, and I don't think there's anything wrong so long as it's clear in the body. Because the reverse is if it's unclear, I've had magistrate suits against the management company saying, You find me. Well, the the management company didn't find them, they were just notifying you. So I think it needs to be clear on who is finding them. If the board, the directors don't want the blowback from that, then they shouldn't serve on the board.

SPEAKER_02 30:15

You know, John, a lot of people don't understand how things work because they're because they're dumb, right? They're owners and the manager signs it and they're gonna think like the manager sent the fine in. I just don't see why any manager or management company like Valerie just mentioned would why put your name on there? Why not just make it?

SPEAKER_00 30:32

Yeah, so I so I agree. So the point, um, there's two points, right? So manager, you're an agent for a disclosed principal, you're not personally liable, regardless of who brings a lawsuit, but you don't want to be named in a lawsuit, right? So then just to be even clearer than you than you have to be, just write like Dave said before, just write like whatever the property is, board of managers, or you know, manage an agent as agent that that's sufficient. You don't you know you make it even clearer, but uh in no circumstances is the property manager personally or individually liable for a violation notice.

SPEAKER_02 31:16

Okay, and and by the way, Cynthia had to jump off. I told her just to jump because I was never gonna be able to pay attention to time and give her a chance to say goodbye. So sorry about that. Thanks for thanks for being here, Cynthia. I appreciate you squeezing that in. Um something about more animals. Gross, I don't pick up dead animals. We insist on calling a company. This is too gross for so early in the morning. This is like nothing. I could get like bring up a lot more gross stuff than this. The only um the only issue with making an exception is that it becomes an expectation. I like it. Yes, serve and draw a line. That's really good. The only issue with making an exception is that it becomes an expectation. Did anybody hear that on the panel? I never heard that before. That's excellent. Never heard that. Uh yes, it does set the tone for the manager to pick up what they see, but it sets up an expectation from those that see it be picked up. Somebody that's a completely different person. They both sent it in at the same time. Uh interesting.

SPEAKER_05 32:15

It's different from it's like a husband bringing a wife flowers. Can't just do it once.

SPEAKER_01 32:19

Yeah, that's why I never do it because I expect it every day.

SPEAKER_05 32:23

Are you married, Dave?

SPEAKER_01 32:25

Uh I don't know why you're the way Valerie said Valerie.

SPEAKER_02 32:29

Yeah, the way Valerie said that, Dave. Like, Dave, are you married? Right. When we got when we got our next trip to South Carolina, I don't know. It's like Valerie, it was just so hard to believe for Valerie to think that you were married. Oh, you know, you took it that way. Okay. I oh I 100% heard it that way. All right. All right. Um, Dave's wife is a super nice person. She never watches this, so I should be good.

SPEAKER_05 32:53

Well, she's watching. I was not hitting on your husband. Let's be clear.

SPEAKER_02 32:56

She doesn't want to watch it, she'd be too too fringeworthy. All right. The only issue with uh different for on-site versus portfolio managers. Different for on-site versus portfolio. I assume they're talking about expectations though, because the legalities wouldn't change, just the responsibilities would. Correct, panel? Am I wrong? Okay, correct.

SPEAKER_00 33:18

Yeah, it should be the same.

SPEAKER_02 33:20

Uh I had a board mover, I had a board member remove one for me because I couldn't get it removed asap. You know, that's interesting. That's nice, right? There's a dead animal out there. The board is getting flack about it. They know that's not really fair to ask the manager, so they go up there and pick it up. Anything wrong with that panel?

SPEAKER_01 33:38

Common gentlemanly ways of living.

SPEAKER_02 33:40

You know, plus I think it says a lot about the manager. I think it, you know, they're obviously well respected, and the and the board cares about them. Um we have rats in Jersey City, we have dead deer here. And before the company comes out, the coyotes will drag them into the woods. That's unbelievable. That's in Jersey City, New Jersey. Yeah, well, I don't know where there was in Jersey City. Interesting. People commenting about where do you get rid of these materials? Is there a liability in regard to fecal batter? Um, for where to put it and dispose it. Um, this one I'm not gonna get to. It's a little, I'm sorry, it's a little bit too long. What about the fear of blue flu? I was gonna mention that too. Like you could get a disease or something if you're picking up dead animals. I think you have to know what you're doing.

SPEAKER_05 34:28

I think you're assuming that risk if you go out there and pick the dead animal up, and it's not your legal obligation to do so. Which it kind of goes into assuming assumption of risk and other capacities. So we're talking about essentially doing things that might not be in your contract and setting expectations. I think it's since we're all lawyers and we're talking about the legalities, um, that if I'm gonna go out and maybe direct traffic where there's been an accident and I direct traffic into another accident, you know, I've a kind of um good Samaritan rule, um, I've kind of assumed a risk and I've taken on something that may not have been a duty or an obligation, but now I have the obligation to perform at the required standard of care. So there are some legal issues in there. Um, I don't know about biohazards of fecal matter and the other stuff that the the commenter was mentioning. Um, but again, if somebody, if a manager is going to take it upon themselves to go out and clean that stuff up and then get sick, I I don't think they necessarily have a claim against CHOA, especially if they weren't asked to do it. They're assuming that risk.

SPEAKER_02 35:30

All right, so Vrad, let's get rid of the dead animals because the traffic one is a really great one to talk about, right? Because this one comes up. There's something going on, it's unexpected, and the manager goes out there to direct traffic. And sometimes it's like at high rises where I live, something just kind of goes on out there unexpected, and somebody does need the direct traffic. And I've seen my our manager go out there and direct traffic because otherwise it's gonna nobody's gonna be able to get in the garage. It really becomes a big deal. Um but should the manager be doing that, Valerie?

SPEAKER_05 35:59

Well, if they are gonna do that, they need to be conscientious that there's a standard of care, and I think this is uh state specific, but um, if you're gonna go out there and do that, you need to exercise the re a reasonable standard of care. Um, don't be negligent about it such that you could cause some additional injury. Um yeah, they need to be aware of that if they're taking on that uh role that they're assuming a duty. And John and Dave may have different perspectives on that based on their states of practice.

SPEAKER_02 36:30

Oh, Dave, I've heard a lot of different perspectives on this from different lawyers, managers directing traffic in a kind of an emergency situation.

SPEAKER_01 36:39

It's tough. It's tough. I don't know. I mean, I I everything you do is create a liability and could will be a lawsuit, and you'll get in trouble if it goes poorly. But a lot of people operate that way anyway, like Valerie said. If there's some issue, there's some danger and you go out and try to make it better, you have some you have some immunity from that unless you act like an idiot. But day-to-day situations present a lot of challenges. Everything you do creates a liability. You just have to decide whether it's a liability you're prepared to live with or not.

SPEAKER_05 37:10

No good deed goes unpunished, right? That's the saying. And I want to be clear that if uh I was advising a client or anybody, but call 911, get law enforcement out there to do the traffic. Um, you know.

SPEAKER_02 37:22

Yeah, but we're we're we're private property. You're not gonna call the Atlantic City Police Department to come out. You know, John Dave said something that jumped out at me. Um, you're covered somewhat, right? Um, he said some, not all the way. So a manager goes out there, tries to do the best effort they can, and it's possible they're not covered completely. Um you know that that makes me nervous.

SPEAKER_00 37:48

I mean, um my advice is just don't do it. Um you are you know, if you absolutely have to, and is you know, it's an emergency, maybe that's an exception, but you're you're as David already mentioned, you're exposing yourself. Um you also like if if it's someone some type of project going on and you're helping out, that's the contractor's responsibility. Uh site safety is their responsibility. If you take on site safety, you're you're jeopardizing the uh independent contractor relationship and maybe taking on some liability, not only just for the property manager, but for the association. So um try not to do it.

SPEAKER_02 38:36

Boy, that's a tough one, especially at a place where I live because it's just gonna get backed up right down the street, right around the block. It would just be a disaster. I feel sorry for the manager that hasn't decided what to do. Um, but you know, somebody had a good idea. Why not just let the board members do it? So um, you know, that would be nice. Good managers know where their job ends. A little tidbit there. Um, this one comes up. I'll start with John. Should a this one always ends up being a debate. Should a manager accept a subpoena?

SPEAKER_00 39:08

John. A subpoena on the board?

SPEAKER_02 39:11

You you you expand on it.

SPEAKER_00 39:13

Some kind of you know, I mean it's so like it depends what type of subpoena it is. If it's on the the manage an agent, yeah, like don't it's it's silly to play games. It's gonna you're gonna just get you know get it, get it to your attorney. Don't duck it. Um but should you accept it on behalf of someone else, like a board member? I would I would say that you need you know you should serve the board member personally, but you know, it could be that you know it's coming and you don't want process service knocking on everyone's door. So um it's it's similar, right? To to like you could accept serv as a lawyer, you could accept service. So yeah, that's I don't have a big problem with it.

SPEAKER_02 40:01

All right, Dave, let's keep it unexpected. Obviously, if the lawyer tells you you're gonna know the circumstances, but like John said, Well, you could take if it's a subpoena to this person or if it's that one. Here we are back to legal nuances, and here we are back to managers. I wouldn't know the difference between if a subpoena is for me or if subpoena for the board. Um, what shouldn't there just be a blanket rule here? Should a manager accept a subpoena?

SPEAKER_01 40:30

I I don't really I don't I don't know that it I think it depends. I don't know the I mean sometimes you can't really there's not like acceptance of a subpoena. I mean, like if it's done correctly, it gets given, it gets given to you, like it's there. Somebody knocks on the door. What door? Like uh an office?

SPEAKER_02 40:48

Okay, look at my building. Let me give you this scenario. That you may not get to the manager, you're the front desk person. They're definitely not gonna take it, okay? So you're not gonna get in here. Should the manager go out there and accept a subpoena, or should they just say no, tell them to get lost?

SPEAKER_01 41:00

It goes back to what John said. The the manager can definitely screw around, and then the guy will be out there hiding in the bushes when you leave for you leave for your car, and he'll jump out and go, hey, subpoena.

SPEAKER_02 41:11

That's not the question, though. That's like a possible scenario. Should a manager accept a subpoena? The answer is it depends.

SPEAKER_01 41:20

You may not want to accept the subpoena. It may you may, if you don't, if you refuse to accept the subpoena, the guy may go away and never bother you again, in which case you never have to be bothered with them. But if you refuse a subpoena, he might be in your driveway when you get home. I mean, it depends on the scenario. John's totally right. I've I've accepted subpoenas uh on behalf of clients because they didn't want to be bothered individually, but I didn't have we didn't, but I like, or I could have told them just keep hiding and you'll never get it, but they didn't want to be bothered. All right. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 41:48

Um of course, like all right, so Valerie.

SPEAKER_05 41:51

I think to make it a little simpler, I agree with John and Dave. I think it depends, but uh I think for purposes of our audience, maybe if if you don't understand what you're accepting, you don't have never talked about it, don't understand, don't have authority, no one's ever given you authority, you haven't been trained on it. Maybe the safest thing is to decline. Um, then go to the lawyer, tell them, ask, I would ask to take a picture of it because I want to know what it is. And and and that way um you get a breathing, some breathing room to go to the attorney and say, is this something that I should accept? We get people that show up at the law firm here and they have something for um maybe a client we represent and they want to serve us, but I'm not the registered agent. I don't know anything about it, haven't been authorized to accept service, so I decline it um pretty often. But I would say if a manager um regularly accepts service as the registered agent for the HOA, is trained to do it, understands it, then there I don't think there's anything wrong with them accepting service. But if a manager gets hit with a sabina and doesn't know, I think the safest thing for them is just to decline. I'm not authorized to do that.

SPEAKER_01 42:51

You grab it, if you grab and take a picture of it, do you guys think it's do you guys think that constitutes acceptance? I don't know what the answer is. I'm just wondering because I it might be.

SPEAKER_05 42:58

I think it I think it would. I guess what I would the way I'd handle it, at least with our deputy sheriffs around here and some process servers, um, if someone's saying, Look, you're it's it's entire it's it it's to a corporation, I am a person, I don't know if I'm authorized to accept this, and therefore, and I'm telling you that. So can I take a picture? You can come back next week, give me your phone number, I'll get back with you. If you try to make that deputy sheriff or that process server's job easier, that you're gonna look into it. Um, they may work with you.

SPEAKER_01 43:25

Yeah, yeah, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 43:26

Yeah, I I think in New York it's works a little different. Um, my understanding is that you don't really get into acceptance, it's just here it is, and they just drop it, like Dave was hinting at before. Like the process server just what's your name, Valerie?

SPEAKER_02 43:43

But that that doesn't matter though. That's not that's not the question. So I think what Valerie said, which sounded reasonable to me, if it's written out to the association, if it's not basically Valerie, what I heard if it's not written out to you and it doesn't have your name on it, yeah, let's respectfully say, you know what, it's not written out to me. I'm not gonna accept this. Do you mind if I take a photo of it? And I'll be happy to find out in a few years.

SPEAKER_05 44:05

I don't, I think they're right. There's no way around it. They're gonna get served. If it's written out to some other person, I think the process servers are trained not to serve John Smith for Jane Smith's subpoena because they don't have the authority to accept service under our rules, at least. But when we're talking about just a an HOA, an entity name on the subpoena, then yeah, I think there's a question of whether or not the person you're serving has authority to accept it or to receive it.

SPEAKER_00 44:27

Yeah, also it could be a lawsuit against the association that the insurance company is in the process of hiring attorneys to defend. So so in that case, Valerie's right, like the attorneys should actually need to know about it. So you you know it should be sent to them.

SPEAKER_02 44:46

Oh sorry, audience. I guess this one is a gray area. Check with your own. Oh, this is perfect. Check with your own individual um professional on this one because it's obviously there's a lot of different angles with it. Um a lot of more dead animal stuff. I guess this is a a pretty common thing. Somebody's a lot of somebody's asking about WAPS nests and taking. I I'm gonna assume panel, you should not be messing with any kind of bees nests or anything or trying to tackle that. I can think of a thousand reasons why you shouldn't be doing that. Does anybody on the panel not have a thousand reasons that they could communicate why you should not, if you're a manager, take down a wasp nest?

SPEAKER_00 45:23

Okay, I think that's pretty straightforward. Even if you're not a manager.

SPEAKER_02 45:27

All right, finally, not a dead animal one. All right. We are, and I'm reading them as I see them. That's why sometimes I get disjointed. We are often asked for vendor recommendations. Well, that one I like right off the bat. I supply a list of vendor homeowners. I supply a list of vendors homeowners seem pleased with. Okay, so this is for interesting, this is for recommendations for owners to have. I need a painter, I need this done. Okay, I need new cabinets. This is something where owners are asking the manager for recommendations. I love this question. It includes a disclaimer stating that the management company does not endorse any of these vendors, and it is a responsibility of the homeowner. All right, Valerie, this is kind of a common one. Should a manager offer a recommendation? Let's just stick with the manager, not an approved board list, not an approved association list, just the manager. I'm John the owner. I say, Hey, could you recommend a painter? And the manager says, sure. He just this guy just did a paint job for Mary. Everybody loves him. Is that acceptable?

SPEAKER_05 46:30

I am gonna say yes with that disclaimer that you mentioned.

SPEAKER_02 46:36

I'm surprised you said yes. Um, is that full on? Let me ask that. Is everything always a professional? Like that's something people do. Can you is there a line there? Because we're still people, right? But I if you're at work, are you always at work a hundred percent? Because you may ask me for a recommendation, right, Valerie? And I tell you a painter, but what about you know what I'm getting at. Maybe you can communicate it better.

SPEAKER_05 47:02

Yeah, I mean, it's just in what capacity are you are you uh operating? And um, I think that's in the for lack of a better word, eye of the beholder. It's kind of like an attorney. Um, I know I'm not your attorney, and I'm not giving you legal advice right now, but the recipient of that advice or what I'm saying may interpret it differently. Um, so it's like a director operating as well, I'm just a resident and a neighbor. That's how I said that thing on social media, not as a director, but it could come across as an official communication from a director. So um I think that addresses that point. But um otherwise, I think as long as you've got some type of disclaimer that you're not endorsing, and this is just a you know, uh, not necessarily a recommendation, but some a few uh vendors that could assist that you know about that have experience in the community, I think I'd be comfortable with that.

SPEAKER_02 47:53

Dave, a lot of people are just gonna managers, they're not gonna pull out a form to sign, right? Hey, I'm looking for a good painter, right? Um, well, you know, here's Bob's business card or call Bob, or sometimes they say, Have you heard has Bob done good work? Um, does a manager have to get a form? I know you guys are lawyers, so this is what you're always gonna bring up. So thank you. But Dave, does the manager have to feel they have to get a form out and sign this contract before I tell you that Bob's a good painter?

SPEAKER_01 48:18

No, I don't think so. I don't think telling giving people names and numbers of potential workers creates any liability at all. Unless even even if they're paying, even if the vendor's paying you, frankly. Uh I mean that would relate to your obligations too, like if you have a contract with the management company or kickbacks, things like that. But uh that's a real small subset. I mean, somebody just says, Hey, okay, who would they give me who are the who are guys that are doing some painting in the neighborhood? I mean, obviously about that.

SPEAKER_02 48:49

But you know, John, I'm gonna play devil's advocate. I own the management company, right? And my why would I want my manager to do this? Why go through the aggravation? Dave just said the paving company, the guy does an absolutely horrible job. Now it's aggravation for me. Once again, people aren't reasonable. Should a manager put themselves in this position?

SPEAKER_00 49:06

Yeah, I mean, I it's uh while I like I agree, like you you could do it with a good disclaimer. Um, it goes back to what we said in the very beginning. Like, is this what you want management, your management doing? You you might want to stay clear of this because um, you know, the first bad recommendation is gonna come back uh to haunt you.

SPEAKER_02 49:29

But I feel bad because these are just common things that human beings do. But I guess it's our job just to tell people all the awful things that can happen and they can decide for themselves.

SPEAKER_05 49:38

I feel bad for the managers. Imagine knowing like a really great, awesome painter who's uh efficient, economic, and you're like, can't tell you.

SPEAKER_02 49:47

Being a manager is so hard. It just you really want to be nice to people and stuff, and then you have opportunities where you can be, and then you just can't sometimes, but I don't know, it's just so hard. Um, sometimes I feel bad about these live streams, I but I feel like it's our job just to warn people that things could go bad. But um recently someone tried to serve me as an HOA president for a foreclosure lien. I refused, called my manager, and they came to the property to uh receive the summons. Okay, interesting. Any commentary on that? All right, Valerie.

SPEAKER_05 50:25

No, I mean I th I think the director probably could the process server could have served them and it would have been um effective in my state.

SPEAKER_02 50:33

I don't know. If I was a board member, you're already doing enough as it is without accepting summonses, but who knows?

SPEAKER_05 50:38

But that goes back to the acceptance part, I think. With that, a process server does it, signs an affidavit, and then the door director says, Hey, they didn't have the authority, I don't think you win that argument. You're a director, you have the authority to accept right.

SPEAKER_01 50:51

And there's a there's a heavy, there's a heavy reliance on this word acceptance. Uh you subpoenas and don't get accepted a lot of times, they just get given to you, and the guy like it. Sometimes the lawyer stuff on television is totally fake, but when it comes to subpoena service, the stuff on TV is kind of accurate, like, hey, how you doing? Are you Bob Jones? Yeah, that's me. How are you? Here, you've been served.

SPEAKER_02 51:12

I mean, it's pretty funny. It's kind of true. All right. Um, this is a really big question, but I like it. And what is a property manager responsible for knowing and doing at board meetings? All right, keep an eye on our time, but I think this is a great question. It's so broad.

SPEAKER_00 51:28

John, can you very yeah, so knowing and doing, so they there's a management agreement that lays out everything a property manager is supposed to do. Um, among the duties are to attend board meetings. Um and um, yeah, while the bylaws will have like board meeting protocol, the president sets the agenda and runs it. So the board member, I mean the property manager isn't supposed to run the meeting, but they certainly could be asked, hey, you know, um, have you gotten bids on these contracts? And um, what's the status of that? Well, all the property management duties that are in the management agreement, that's what the board, uh, the property manager should be there to uh explain and answer questions about.

SPEAKER_02 52:19

You know, Dave, we just did a great segment on this and spoke about a lot of these aspects on that. Um, should a manager play devil's advocate segment? I don't know if you remember, and we covered a lot of these kind of items. Yeah, yeah. It's not out there yet, but um, that's a good segment for the audience to pick up on. Valerie, um, I don't know if you were there for that one, but we spent a lot of time on this because this is a gray area for managers also on how when they should um step in and when they shouldn't, when they should offer advice, when they should not. This seems like kind of the same thing, is it?

SPEAKER_05 52:48

Well, I wasn't at that one, but it does sound very similar.

SPEAKER_02 52:52

Okay. Um, it is a great idea. We have a I love these ideas because people actually do use them. Thank you for sending it. We have a list of vendors that other residents have had good experiences with, but we don't personally make recommendations. Um, someone also had commented a little while back that they have a summary of vendors where um the owners can recommend people and they just give the piece of paper out. So I think that's a great idea and an easy solution. Um, I don't think any manager should recommend any vendors unless it's an association vendor. They can ask other homeowners. I will tell you that I can see managers definitely regret um recommending vendors no matter what they tell people. Look, this happens with us with our friends, right? I recommend my lawn guy and does a bad job on my buddy's house. And my buddy's like, why'd you recommend that guy? Like, who needs the activation? You know what I mean? Um, I am not recommending because I don't want the responsibility afterwards. I'm just going through this. Nobody wants to recommend vendors. Um sad.

SPEAKER_05 53:58

As a business owner, like, word of mouth is the best way you get, you know, referrals and business, and you really pride yourself on client satisfaction because you want them to recommend you. And now we're like, nobody can recommend anyone because there's liability, potential liability. Crazy.

SPEAKER_02 54:12

But it's obvious why, Valerie. They've been burned. They've been burned. They tried to help people, and it's probably the vendor probably did a good job, but then Mary runs around and tells everybody did it a bad job, so you can't win. It's awful. Oh, no, wait, some people are coming in and saying this is that's ridiculous. I recommend vendors all the time. I think this all depends on your community. Honestly, some communities you're just not gonna do it, you're gonna be um spying versus observation. This is kind of a legal one. You can't spy people, but you can observe, right, Valerie?

SPEAKER_05 54:46

I mean, that sounds like semantics because if you're observing without their knowledge, you're spying.

SPEAKER_02 54:52

Oh no.

SPEAKER_05 54:53

Uh, but I need more context for that.

SPEAKER_02 54:56

All right. I'm gonna have to skip it then because we're gonna run out of time. And I want to all right. Can anybody just I think they're referring to looking for violations and things like that. Should uh if a manager is asked to go find a violation or look in on someone, can they peek over the fence? How far can they go? You want to tackle that, Valerie? Did I give you enough? Not yet.

SPEAKER_05 55:16

I would recommend not peeking over the fence. Uh, number one, I I think that whenever you're peeking over a fence, you're probably on private property, which um there are probably in most governing documents the right to go on to find violations. But in my state at least, where there's something that's not visible, um, those are really tough cases. The judges don't really want our HOAs in saying, hey, you can only see it by going in their gate, looking over this thing into their back window. Um, it should be mostly visible from the street. Now, if you have a neighbor who can see into their neighbor's backyard and it's visible to them, then that might be a different situation. But I wouldn't recommend um going on to someone's backyard and looking over the fence in order to try to find a violation.

SPEAKER_02 55:58

Oh my gosh, that's like a whole other topic. Can you ask a neighbor to send you a picture from their view?

SPEAKER_05 56:04

Well, a lot of times you do get violations that are pretty egregious, and they the the all of the evidence is from neighboring lots. Um, it doesn't make it not a violation, and it is affecting other people in the community. Um, but it depends on the governing documents, quite candidly. There's some that actually say certain things are not allowed from the public street or the the right-of-way view. Um, so you've got to check your governing documents. But to your point, you don't go into someone's backyard and peek over their fence.

SPEAKER_02 56:33

Dave, I'm gonna make a statement because this comes up a lot. I think every plain devil's advocate, it doesn't mean it's my real opinion. It could be, but you never know. That's my job here. Dave, I think every association should have a rule on behalf of the manager that says no manager should ever go to a board member's home for HOA business. It takes a lot of pressure off the managers and it just saves a lot of aggravation down the road. A management company should have it too. Do you agree or disagree? Because this is an issue where managers are uncomfortable stopping by. Hey, I'm Bob, stop by and pick up that paperwork at my home. No, you got to bring it to me in the office, Dave.

SPEAKER_01 57:10

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the of the pop-ins, uh, manager pop-ins and uh going to people's homes for things like that. That's um that does create practical issues, but for the lawyer panel, it's it creates not liability necessarily going there, but uh a lot of really odd things can come out of that. That can be a real problem.

SPEAKER_02 57:34

Here we go. And I'm seeing it. I hate meeting in someone's house. Yeah, I get asked all the time. That's two separate managers right off the bat. But then other managers are saying we absolutely say office meeting only. So it's happening, it's happening right now, and there's uncomfortable managers. I think it's terrible. I think you should do your break and make it a rule.

SPEAKER_05 57:52

Um wait, all fairness, like the terrible, like there's some small communities where that's what they do. And uh, but I think by far, especially in the condo and high-rise, when you have the venue to meet in an office space or something else, then probably more appropriate. But let's not just say oh that's terrible. Some people uh actually prefer to do that.

SPEAKER_02 58:12

It's only good, Valerie.

SPEAKER_05 58:14

That's okay.

SPEAKER_02 58:15

It's only okay until you get the one manager that's uncomfortable with the one board member.

SPEAKER_00 58:19

Well, yeah, I mean it's for the time for my for my clients, it's it's actually very common that they meet in any in a unit because there is no clubhouse. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:29

Well, the meeting, the meeting is different.

SPEAKER_02 58:31

I think to me, yeah, exactly. We're not talking about a meeting, we're talking about just the manager coming by and dropping off stuff at the person's house or something. Not we're talking about a situation where they're alone where people are uncomfortable. Okay, soliciting discount coupons. I'm sorry we don't have time to hit this one. I know managers are constantly being asked to do this one. So um, oh, a lot of people don't they don't want to meet in the in the homes under any circumstances. I know I know this one because I get a lot of complaints about this one and afterwards. All right, let's do closing thoughts here. Um, we did not go through a whole bunch of them that I thought were really cool, but I'm I'm so glad with the audience participation.

SPEAKER_00 59:07

All right, John, watch our time, closing thoughts. Uh so yeah, so look at your management agreements, see what what you laid out that you're gonna do, and um and then if it's extra work that you it's not part of your normal duties, you should get paid for it. But you should also list that.

SPEAKER_01 59:26

Dave, very quickly, please. I agree, I um I agree with John. I think um I think and Cynthia really had good comments too about sort of the proper role of management. A lot, but a lot of these things do don't necessarily connect well with with lawyer opinions. A lot of it is very practical-based and capitalist-based. What's working out there in the marketplace, how how you can get work people to work for you and how you get clients to hire you.

SPEAKER_02 59:53

It's um and it varies from location to location. And I'm not making this up. Someone did say they would love to marry Dave. So, but I don't know. Check check with me first or Dave's wife. What's his name? I'm not saying. Okay. Uh Valerie, take us out of this, please.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:07

I was just saying this was called responsibilities managers should not accept. And I think one big one that we didn't talk about was just general decision making. Don't let a board say, hey, we don't know what the assessment should be. You decide and let the manager, or you can decide on waiving fines and late fees, just make that decision on your own. I think that you need to force boards to make decisions and you carry out those decisions.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:30

Well, thank you so much, panel. I may I think we're gonna have to do a part two on this because there's a lot of stuff we didn't get to, but I thought it was super interesting what we did. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you, everybody. Thank you, panel, and I'll see everybody soon. Bye, everybody. Bye, everyone.