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Access Control — Here’s Where HOAs Get It Wrong

• Raymond Dickey

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Gated communities. Key fobs. Call boxes. On paper, it all sounds secure—but many associations are far more exposed than they realize.

YouTube: https://youtu.be/kGaplSFlrCA

CEUS: You must watch on our GoToWebinar system. Go to www.AssociationHelpNow.com.

Join us for a practical discussion featuring Tom Landry (SEC Protects), a 25-year federal law enforcement veteran who retired from the United States Secret Service in 2022. Tom served as Special Agent in Charge of the St. Louis Field Office and on the Presidential Protective Division under Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama, working in nearly fifty countries. He now helps organizations strengthen real-world security environments.

Alongside Tom, an HOA attorney and insurance professional will connect **security breakdowns to legal and insurance risk**—because when access control fails, it quickly becomes a liability issue.

We’ll cover how unauthorized entry actually happens—from shared fobs and propped doors to vendor access and outdated systems—and what boards and managers are expected to have in place when something goes wrong.

**You’ll learn:**
• Common access control mistakes HOAs are making
• Where boards assume they’re protected—but aren’t
• What attorneys and insurers look for a

Dawn Becker-Durnin, CIRMS • Acrisure • dbecker-durnin@acrisure.com • www.acrisure.com

Raymond Dickey • AssociationHelpNow.com • www.AssociationHelpNow.com

John LaGumina, Esq. • The LaGumina Law Firm, PLLC • jlagumina@laguminalaw.com • www.laguminalaw.com

Tom Landry • SEC Protects • tom.landry@secprotects.com • www.secprotects.com

This content does not constitute professional advice.

SPEAKER_00

I am Ray Dickey. We are here for access control. Here's what HOAs get wrong. And we're here for South Carolina, Hudson Valley, CAI, and Association Help now covering several different states. If you are here for CEUs, everyone has a question feature. That's how you ask us questions. And that's how you send comments. I love them. I'd love to get them. You should feel free to ask whatever you like. I don't use anyone's names, so feel free to ask whatever you like. Maybe don't ask me anything too top secret in case I make a mistake. You want to use that feature now because you want to enter CEU. That lets me know if you're here for CEUs that I provide them to you. So thank you very much for being here today. Much appreciated. With that being said, we have an awesome panel today. And I'm going to start off with Tom first.

SPEAKER_01

Good morning. And uh thanks for having me on, Ray. I appreciate it. Uh Tom Landry, retired uh U.S. Secret Service agent, 25 years in the agency. Uh, I'm now a security consultant for Secure Environment Consultants based in Dallas, Texas. Glad to be here.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, Tom, I forgot to tell you, I have a new feature. Since you've been on it several times, I feel comfortable now. It's going to be called Has Tom Ever. So don't let me forget about it. We'll run it, we'll run it. Tom's like, what the heck? I didn't sign up for that. Okay. Uh, John.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I don't think he signed up for that. Yeah. John Legumina, the Legumina Law Firm. We were in purchase, New York, just outside of New York City in Westchester. We represent condominiums, HOAs, and co-ops from New York City throughout the Hudson Valley areas.

SPEAKER_00

All right. And Don.

SPEAKER_03

Hi, I'm with Akashore. We are International Israel's National Retail Insurance Agency. I am the practice leader for our East Division's Community Association division. We provide insurance in this division for all types of communities, including condos and HOAs, coastal, inland, and ones with security and access problems as well.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, Dawn this morning sent me like a thousand lawsuits related to this topic today, very quickly. You were able to put that together. Did you just do it today, really quick, Don?

SPEAKER_03

Or right before the wow, there's a lot of them. Which I think also speaks to how much is going on out there as far as litigation and cases that are arising due to injuries and property damage.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. So what I want to try to get done today is we're going to Tom will be here the whole time, but I want to spend time with Tom and Don and John. Please stay. Let's talk about we're going to talk about the technical aspects of access, and then we'll go to legal and insurance, which I think there will be quite a bit. Um, really quick, John. I want to get this. I I appreciate when people send me questions in advance. Um, if you we could do this one really quick. Looking into dredging our pond, not it's not on the reserve study and it is not in our budget. Need to get the homeowner's approval prior to starting the project. Do they need to get the homeowner's approval?

SPEAKER_02

You got to look at your governing documents, which is usually your declaration or your bylaws. Um if it's if it's common area maintenance, um, it it shouldn't should not require homeowner approval. That would because if you never get it and you don't maintain your con, the place could have serious problems. So yeah, in in general, all almost every association can maintain the common areas without having a unit on a vote.

SPEAKER_00

All right, and I appreciate the person that sent that in because we did not get to it during the last live stream. Don, several people are asking if they can get a copy of those lawsuits. Would that be something you could provide, or that would that be?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and you know, I hate to say it, but a lot of them are pretty easy just to put in Google and put, you know, HOA lawsuits, security. Um, that's a big one, and and you can find a variety of ones that pop up. And I sent some on case law because we're gonna go all the way back to 1986 with some of these examples.

SPEAKER_00

Well, probably not today. We only have an hour. I'm sorry. I know you love insurance, and I know you would love to spend five hours talking about insurance lawsuits, but maybe we'll get to 2005 or something. We'll see. All right, access access control, where HOAs get it wrong. You know, Tom, you could bounce around here, but I'm just starting off with I thought this was a funny quote. The gate code is confidential, but it's written on every piece of delivery receipt in town.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, no question. Let's start with that. Yeah, I mean, so so security is only as good as your process and procedures. Uh, a code that is one, two, three, four or is circumvented by every person in the units to get their DoorDash or wherever it might be, you know, you really don't have security when that's the case. And it's a real fine balance between convenience, right? You want your life to be convenient and apparently no one wants to go out and get their own food anymore. Uh, but you want your food brought right to you. But how do you do that if you live inside of a gated community or some sort of uh community that has security process? I mean, ultimately, uh once you once you let that out, then you really do you really have access control, right? And then ultimately you open yourself up to all kinds of issues. Uh, you know, I work with a lot of different clients uh from high net worth clients all the way up to HOA type uh facilities. And all of them have this problem. It is a real balancing act that I think, you know, I'd love to see from you know, coming from my background, I'd love to see the the pendulum swing more towards security, but so many people will take the easy way out, and that reduces everyone's overall security. Uh, and again, I live in a gated community and I I don't have any, I have no no pre you know, no idea that there's any security provided by that gate because I know that my Amazon package makes it to my front door. So that means they know what that gate code is. So, you know, what am I really doing?

SPEAKER_00

Why, though, the technology exists for personal gate codes, fobs exist. Why are is it is it money? Why are associations using one stick? Because they can give the Amazon Amazon driver his own gate code. They right, can you run with that a little bit? Why are we first explain what the technology is, yeah, and then explain why don't we see it everywhere?

SPEAKER_01

So there's a lot of different ways to go about doing this, but but you have you know, you have unique gate codes that go to your residence or or an individual, but then there could also be delivery codes, a generic, you know, code that all delivery individuals get, as opposed to giving you my personal code. There could be a delivery code. Uh, you know, a lot of you you could very easily set that up in your system and then at least you understand who has that code. Uh and then you also know it's not your personal code. Your personal code is safe. Um, obviously, lots of ways to balance that. Uh, I think a lot of times what you're seeing though is there's security theater, right? So people see it, they see the gate, they see that either a camera, and we maybe we'll touch on cameras here in a little bit. You know, you see that, and so you get a warm, fuzzy feeling, right? Like a warm blanket. But the fact of the matter is it's really not doing much for you from a security standpoint. Uh, I think I read somewhere that someone had said cameras, and I think in my previous times coming here, you know, I'm I'm relatively anti-camera. Uh, I'm not I'm not a big fan of cameras, because all that does is essentially record the crime in progress. It's great for the after action, but it doesn't really prevent crime or violence, which is really what we should be focused on the prevention of these things. Uh, just documenting it better afterwards, that doesn't do much for you. And at the end of the day, it won't won't stop any events from happening.

SPEAKER_00

I know that technology exists, though, Tom, where like you can produce as many codes as you need, right? So if I was a resident and I want to give a code to a delivery guy, I can almost have like a separate code just for my delivery guy. What I like about that is then if there's something happens, they know who what code that person entered on. Can you how come we're not seeing more of that though? Why are we still dealing with the standard one, two, three, four gate code? Why don't why it's these all just personalized gate codes?

SPEAKER_01

I I think there's a a little bit of a I don't want to be it to be too rough and too harsh, but laziness and the human factor come into play here a little bit, right? Your security and your security procedures are only as good as the people implementing them and holding everyone accountable for them. And accountability is a dirty word in 2026 in a lot of places. So uh ultimately you're right. Having those unique codes will give you a lot better understanding of who is coming into your properties and who is responsible for those people being granted access into those properties. I think it's just trying to go the extra step and a lot of individuals trying to understand their systems a little better. I think there's just a gap there between understanding and capabilities.

SPEAKER_00

I love the responsibility part of it. I think that's a deterrent right there. People will do a better job guarding their code if they think the whole world's gonna know that you let the burglar in on your code. Um, when you a bunch of questions from the audience, I love it. When you get to it, what is known about RFID readers attached to vehicles instead of gate codes?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Well, ultimately there's there's the technology exists now and has for a while. Now you can literally have an RF RFID chip on your car, and as you're pulling in, it will read the chip in your car and open up the gates so you don't have to do anything. Uh, it's just automatic. And so that that technology exists, it's around. Uh, you know, ultimately it's not foolproof, right? There, there's ways to circumvent that from a security standpoint, but ultimately it's more technical and lower probability, frankly. But yes, that that exists out there. And so uh some communities, if they wish to have a no-touch experience, that that that exists out there, it's there today.

SPEAKER_00

I think it's really common. I mean, we have it at our building, and it really cut back on a lot of non-security related issues. Um, like uh what's I for it popped out of my mind. What's the company doing where people rent their units out online, they're not supposed to. We talk about it all the time. Airbnb, Airbnb and things like that. It really created an issue where there's some responsibility with the code. Sure.

SPEAKER_01

And and to that point, too, to go another level is you know, if you have key fobs or donals or whatever the phrase is that people will use just to, you know, like a chip reader, you can give that to anybody, right? And so, you know, just because I assigned you the this this fob, that doesn't mean you're not gonna rent it out and hand it out to individuals that you know, do they really belong there or not? And that's the question.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, but if I give John my key fob and I'm an AC and he goes out and drinks all night and gets loaded, and he stumbles back into my building and he uses my key fob and he creates an incident, they're gonna know that John used my key fob, right, Tom?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yeah, yeah, it can be. It will be it will come right back to you, and they have a unique code on each of those fobs and dongles or whatever it might be. And so that's not the point, but but we do know that who who caused the problem. But again, we want to focus on no less problems, not responding faster to them. Go ahead, Dawn.

SPEAKER_03

I I just wanted to mention one of the largest lawsuits that I personally had seen in a condo association dealt specifically with this issue. It was a domestic incident between a woman and her boyfriend, and the boyfriend had the key fob. The community association paid out $900,000 for that claim. And uh as Tom was pointing out, the perception of safety is what really promulgated the case being uh the award being so much larger than it should have been.

SPEAKER_02

Did that go to trial or was that a settlement?

SPEAKER_03

Uh it went through court and they wound up with a settlement.

SPEAKER_00

Let's make sure we get to that for sure, because that's a big part of this, the perception of safety and how it can come back to haunt you. Um, I always tell my folks, just as the gates don't keep you securely in, they don't keep people securely out either. Um, someone is asking, do you think that is more secure? I think they're probably responding to the RFID reader comment that we were talking about. Um, what do you like for gate access, Tom? A lot of our viewers um have gated communities. What do you like to see? Do you like to see a code? Do you like to see a fob? Do you like to see an RFD reader? Do you and even fake facial recognition they have?

SPEAKER_01

Facial recognition is out there. That's a little more expensive and pricey, and I think it can be a little persnickety, uh, the usage of it and what I've seen. Uh, I like the RFID chips. I do like that. Uh, but no matter which approach you take, it's important that you be able to shut off these accesses. Uh so when my car gets stolen, right, then the RF, the chip reader in the in the car then can't be used then to go get in there. That's why we don't like uh the remotes, the clickers, you know, to use the phrase, uh, because it's very easily stolen, very easily taken, very easily copied. So so those we want to avoid those at all costs. Uh you don't want to leave it in your vehicle, the the way to get into your development because the vehicles are so unsafe, frankly. I mean, you can break into them, you can steal them, they're they're very but so. I can go with the RFI. If I have my choice, I like the the chip uh better. That's the best option.

SPEAKER_00

Is that uh is a fob an RFI? It's the same thing, right? Like for my car, it's just it's you don't even see it. It's a little thing that posts on the windshield. Is that I don't even know what that is. Tom, is that an RFID or is that a code that a machine reads? And then I have the fobs.

SPEAKER_01

There's a there's two different ways to do it. There's the RFID that actually will send a signal out and it'll be received and then open. Uh, and then there's another way you can have just a fob and you can just swipe it and it will open the gate. And that's one we it's not as good. We prefer the one that's the RFID in the window or in the in the actual car itself.

SPEAKER_00

And then Tom, I think we have to talk a little bit too, if you don't mind. Like the um, I live in Atlantic City, it's an inner city environment. So our security would be much more extreme than a gated community out, you know, out in the middle of the woods somewhere, right? Because we have homeless people that you know, we have a gate that actually comes down in our garage and it's been very effective from letting homeless people piggyback into our garage and camp out for a few days. Can you talk a little bit about the different levels of security based on where you are? And maybe I'm wrong to say that. Maybe you're gonna tell me, you know what, security should be the same everywhere. Don't assume.

SPEAKER_01

You know, listen, uh, uh, you know, there should be different varieties of security depending on your risks. Uh, it would be foolish not to if you were to do one size uh fits all. You know, I mentioned earlier about the the RFID opening up the gates automatically, and that's great, but remember, those gates stay open, and as you drive away, I could very easily walk right through those gates if it stays open for too long. And so you have to understand uh where you're at, what are the potential risks involved. You know, where I live out in remote Texas, it's much different than where you live in Atlantic City. And so the gates that roll down, as you mentioned, right, very effective because those gates aren't open very long, right? So you go through and it closes rather quickly because you don't want to open up a hole in the security for everybody, not just yourself.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, we actually have a drop-down gate, uh a rail or whatever you call it. And then the the actual garage that opens is up the ramp. So you can't even make it theoretically, but it's only as good as the people watching the front the desk, the cameras also at the at the same at the same time.

SPEAKER_01

And if I could really just hit that point again, is that everything we're talking about, no matter what, whether you know, you know, regardless of what you use, when people move out or when things are stolen, it's very important to be prompt to shut off access to whether it be key fobs or whether it be remote controls or whatever it might be, you need a way to make sure because it's you know things get lost, they get stolen, they get, you know, as Donna mentioned, there's domestic issues where you know property gets moved around. You need to have the ability, the HOA has it has to have the ability to quickly turn that off uh when they're notified that something's wrong.

SPEAKER_00

And these are basic systems, right, Tom? They're not that expensive to have.

SPEAKER_01

They're not then certainly you know, this this technology has been around for a while. These are very user-friendly. Most administrators can do things remotely on their phone to turn turn off access. So uh it is very usable. And and I would encourage you know your audience, if they're not, if they if they haven't explored some of these technologies, to give it a look because they can make their life a lot easier and safer.

SPEAKER_00

I think the gate code thing is is like dead in the water at some point here where you push in the code. It just doesn't make any sense to me, but um John, a reminder, somebody's asking about like the boyfriend-girlfriend thing. So can you remind me to go back to that when we go back to you a little bit later? You go and and then um also people saying that yeah, they're very frustrated with the codes. They don't they don't like the codes. Somebody is saying they use barcodes, you know. Tom, go through go through the different kinds of security from the cheapest to the most expensive. Um, I guess it would is it going to be the same for I guess you could just go through it all. It doesn't really matter if it's a high security or not security because I'll let you take it from there.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's all I mean, so the the cheapest will be your traditional co gate code itself, right? So that's just a static gate and it has static code that you're given that probably never changes. They right never everyone has the same code. That's the cheapest, right? And ultimately it's it's you know, if they don't keep the database of codes updated, it's almost uh assuredly going to be a speed bump on the way of people getting into your properties, uh, if nothing else. So you get what you pay for there. Uh it visually looks like a deterrent, but it in actuality it doesn't really work that well. And I think most of your audience is is mentioning that, right? Then the next step, uh we're gonna assume that you're not gonna have a human being there, right? Or or should I think about that?

unknown

No.

SPEAKER_00

Why don't we leave the human beings part out of it? Because I think that's more security. So let's assume for the most part. Obviously, if you have a guard there, it's gonna work a lot better than just about anything, I guess.

SPEAKER_01

But why don't we just hope so? But that's not always the case either. But you know, yeah. Uh the next step is, you know, you have a key fob of some sort. Uh so it's not a code, but but in essence, the fob is the is the code, right? So uh then the issues with that, of course, are just like with everything else, is if it's lost, if it's stolen. Uh, you know, whoever has the fob has access, right? And that may or may not be the person you want it to be. Uh, and so so that's the next level. Then after that, you know, there are barcodes that can be RFID codes that can be put on like a sticker. Like we used to have them uh in the Secret Service, we would have them to get access to certain buildings that had a had an RFID reader that would read the barcode, uh, and it would it would basically work really well. That's a little more expensive and it requires it to be set up really just so uh it's kind of it's kind of finicky, but yes, it works very well. And so uh so there's a number of ways. And then above that, even you can have facial recognition, you can have now we're talking high-end uh buildings, either you know, digital thumb prints or retinal scans and things like that. That's probably a little not in the residential area. Uh it's it's a little and very, very ultra-high net worth type things uh that frankly are a little, you know, kind of James Bondy for my tastes. I mean, they're they're a little little, you know, it's a little much, but uh they're effective, uh, but they're expensive.

SPEAKER_00

They're using them down in Miami. I go to Miami, they're already using facial recognition at some of these high-rise kind of mini buildings.

SPEAKER_01

Um, Miami is the hotbed for high rate, high-rise security now, and and the the city of Miami itself is is a hotbed for all this modern technology uh and high-rise living, is you're seeing people are going vertical, and we were talking before the show started. Uh, that that is that is the way, it's not the compound anymore, it's the high-rise, and that's the the best security you can get.

SPEAKER_00

You know, let me ask you something getting off topic, but I I want to ask you if John and I wanted to try to sneak into places and get paid for it, but we don't like and not get in trouble, and like we would get paid to sneak into places. Could you set that up? Because you have a lot of connections. John and I would like to.

SPEAKER_01

There are companies that do this, they do red team red team testing, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think John and I could get in. Look at us.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, no one no one would suspect us.

SPEAKER_00

I have a whole plan. Tom, if you set that up, that would be great. All right. Come on. I don't want to take Dawn along because she's too likable. Everybody remembers her. It just it would not Dawn. People are asking if am I going to get an insurance discount for putting in some of these security systems.

SPEAKER_03

So I really like what Tom said earlier about security cameras and that he didn't like them because as much as our insurance carriers do like them in some regards, especially if there's an unattended site, they prefer it there. But it really is best results for what occurred to determine in quarterback, right? It doesn't stop the crime. So a lot of the attorney's opinions after we've had incidents occur at our communities have been that the security cameras that actually resulted in large major payouts. And again, it's that perception of safety. And sometimes the cameras aren't even working, they're not backed up. So there's that. Then are you negligent in not taking the steps to maintain your equipment?

SPEAKER_00

You're getting so far ahead of me. You get so excited about the insurance. You know, is there a discount? No discount, right?

SPEAKER_03

Uh no, but sometimes a requirement, depending. But before we get into this, I'd really like to have we're talking about biometric data, and that's becoming a thing. And a lot of our insurance policies exclude it. Are you gonna have a topic about that in a little bit?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, slow down. There's so much legal in insurance. You're so excited. That's why you're so great at insurance because you know so much. You know so much. Tom, a lot, and I'm not surprised this came up. People are asking me, license plate readers, they're also getting a lot more inexpensive, and ungated communities are looking to put them in. What's the we're going to the legal and the insurance aspects, but what are the technical aspects of these things?

SPEAKER_01

So, from a technical aspect, I I have had several communities install these now, working with third uh third party vendors. Uh, and essentially what that does is it provides uh does everyone understand what what a licensed plate reader should I should I? Explain should I okay, yeah, I'm sorry. So essentially it's a it's a technical system that will capture all the license plates of vehicles that come within a certain certain area. And uh a lot of times uh HOAs and communities that have one singular road going into their development is it that's ideal, right? Uh they'll set up an LPR license plate reader to capture who's coming in and who's coming out, with the thought that people that will be doing burglaries or home invasions will be doing pre-incident or pre-attack surveillance and behavior, which is historically a truism. That's there is a true, there's some truth to that, that that uh there's you know casing the joint as they if you're watching the old movies. Uh, but and that that happens in violent crime too. There is always pre-attack behavior, or usually pre-attack behavior that happens. And so that the concept is if you're capturing these, then you can see who's not supposed to be in the neighborhood, right? There's usually uh a list of license plates of owners in the development, and then they cross-reference and the technology will spit out those that are not registered uh into the community, and then theoretically, someone that could then go through and look and see, hey, what's going on. The number one, I the the data, the gather, gathering of data itself, it's a little big brother for me, to be honest with you, and coming from big brother, it's a little big brother for me. Uh, but it also implies that someone who understands what's going on is going to be taking that data and doing something with it, right? Again, the the LPR is oh, great, something happened. Now we're piecing it together again afterwards. And this will help me identify who this could be the perpetrator. It didn't stop any crime from happening. All you're doing is helping us capture the person afterwards, theoretically. So again, I really like to put all of our limited resources and time in how do we prevent fires from happening as opposed to how do we respond to them faster. Um it's a long, grand-winded way of saying, hey, it's a great piece of technology, uh, but I'm not so sure if it's stopping any crime.

SPEAKER_00

You know what I see in the future, though, Tom? I see license plate readers that are tied into the police department or something. So there's there's a known vehicle that's causing burglaries, right? And you have it in your community, and then the cops could get ahead of that. I also see technology being AI being smart enough, hey, this car is driven by 10 times. That's not normal, right? So I see AI in the future taking an abnormal situation. Why is this why is this car driven by 10 times in an hour? And maybe it throws a warning out there. Don't you see that as with the future definitely happening?

SPEAKER_01

Future as in currently now happening in some jurisdictions and and maybe weeks or months away. So the short answer is yes. That's not future state. That's really current state. I know there are some areas that they allow the local law enforcement to look in and and actually capture LPR data. Uh so yes, if there was a license plate of a vehicle that was stolen and it comes up through my HOA and we have an agreement with the local police, then they would get notified that that's there. So uh so yes, you're you're right on the money that that happens.

SPEAKER_00

I like it too, because let's say John drives by 50 times in his Rolls-Royce, right? John has a lot of expensive vehicles. Tom, Tom, John's very wealthy. He's unbelievable, generationally wealthy. And maybe he's driving around in his Rolls-Royce a lot because he does that. And I like it because the technology would give a warning and say, hey, this guy's driven by 50 times, or if there's a problem, we can go back and track down John. And I think it's great technology in that way. If you can live with the big brother routine, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So and it can be used well and it can be, it can be done. I know there's a lot of a lot of communities that are jumping on this, and and there's some pluses as long as you manage it well.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Uh, we have a license plate reader for homeowner or residents speeding through stop signs in the community. We get the data from the annual census. You know, somebody's mentioned these flock cameras. Is it gonna can you do it a little? What is going on? Why I don't understand what is going on with these flock cameras? Why do I keep hearing about it? Is this something that's gonna take too long for you to explain, Tom? Are you familiar with it? Why do I keep hearing this in the news? What's this?

SPEAKER_01

I'm only slightly familiar. Maybe some of your audience are a little more with it, but it it's the same, it's the same principles that we're talking about. It's I believe Flock is a private security, is a private company that offers these to to HOAZ. So I think Flock is a company name, not a not a type of camera. But I could be wrong. So I, you know.

SPEAKER_00

Let's go to Dawn, because in Dawn's job, she has to know everything.

SPEAKER_03

Well, just as Tom pointed out, that is the name of the company, but it is essentially a company that has been contracting directly with municipalities and cities to install camera systems on every major roadway. So I'm outside of Charlotte, and you're not only is your vehicle being read, but they're also doing biometrics to capture your face. And so what they're doing is they're matching your face with warrants. And so if the police officer gets the notice that you're in the area driving down the street, they will pull you over and arrest you. And so that's been concerning to a lot of citizens. It uh it my understanding is really it's been promoted on safety, but then there's the concern of the data collection.

SPEAKER_00

Tom, maybe like I fill the audience and how good this facial recognition is. And I don't think people understand, you're already having, like Don just said, I hate to tell you something, you're already having facial recognition when you go places. You're already having plate readers. You go to Manhattan, you drive in the parking garage. I guarantee there's probably a plate reader keeping track of how many cars went in and what they're tied to the online account. Tom, let people talk a little bit how we're already there. We're already at Big Brother stage.

SPEAKER_01

There's no question that that if we're not, I think we are there. I think you're right on the money there, but I think that it's only getting more and more ubiquitous. It's everywhere. I mean, anyone stepped on a flight recently? What does TSA ask you to do before you hand them your ID? You've proven who you are, right? You've demonstrated who you are. What do they ask you to do? Hey, can you please look in the camera and we'll take a photo of you, right? Well, why? Why would they need a photo of me if they have a government-issued ID picture? It and where do all these photos go, right? And they're going somewhere. And so I again I'm I don't want to be like too big brotherly, but uh they're those photos in that biometrics are already well out there. I mean, you can't go anywhere and not be captured.

SPEAKER_00

TSA is touchless now, Tom. I don't know if you've seen that yet.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, I have it. I it's good.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I have it. Yeah, you don't even just see a person anymore. You just go up to the machine and it and it lets you through. Um, the police have asked to see our license plate reader due to an incident that occurred in the community. John and uh Dawn, if you could remember about that, that's going to be illegal and insurance commentary. Um, of course, there's red light cameras all over the place. And I'm we just got rid of all our toll boots. We don't have any. It just reads your license plate and sends you a bill to the license plate. What other technology is there, Tom, that we haven't spoken about that would be advantageous for HOAs and condominiums? And I'm gonna have a follow-up question, I'll give it to you right now. What is the excuse gonna be down the road for an HOA or condo not to have this? Because it's not gonna be expensive.

SPEAKER_01

Well, everything you've talked about, everything we've talked about up to this point on some variety, right? Uh something. You your organizations need to have at least one of these, right? But I think, and I don't want to get into the legal or insurance questions here, but I think the biggest gaps that I see, it's not necessarily, hey, why don't you have this fancy new piece of technology? It's why aren't you using the technology that you have correctly and in the way it was designed to be used? So the gaps, you know, I say the say do gap, right? Well, we say we have we we say we have gate security here at this, you know, HOA or this location. But in actuality, if you what actually happens here, there isn't really isn't any security. And that gap right there, again, I don't want to get into the legal issues here or the uh audit issues, but when you say one thing and you do another, that's where bad things can happen.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, so um any other technology you want to mention before we if you're gonna stay with us before we jump into the legal insurance, because there's a lot to talk about. I think people are gonna be surprised with a lot of the stuff that Dawn and John are gonna throw through. Did we cover just about right now?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I and there are there are some places that I know that still use the actual uh an actual lock and key, like an old school key. Uh and I we haven't talked about that because I wouldn't call that technology. So, you know.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, and then we're not at drones yet, though, at least, right?

SPEAKER_01

I mean, for the most part, we're not we don't have drones flying around tracking we're getting there in certain areas, but I I think we're not quite ready for the drone, uh, the drone wars.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. What I would like to do is I would like to start a new segment when Tom's with us. And Don and John, you're gonna play along and it's gonna be has Tom ever? And there's four items. Don't worry, Tom. They're not that personal. Don and John, you're gonna go thumbs up that he has or thumbs down that he has not. Okay. So let's go through it. And the first one is Has Tom ever worn dark glass? Tom was a secret service agent, everybody remembered. He was doing FBI stuff. Tom's like a secret agent kind of guy, if you ever read his bio. Um, with that being said, has Tom ever worn his dark sunglasses at dusk when he didn't need to? Oh, Tom, what do you wear them in Secret Service, but you don't really need to wear them? Always. Always. Unless it's unless it's dark, dark, right?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yes. Yeah. Why, just to be cool, be honest. If it helps, then I'll do it. If it helped, I did it.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Has Tom ever defended the White House against impossible odds? We see these all the time, these movies. Oh, Tom has. Tom, have you? Or is it a secret?

SPEAKER_01

No, no, no, no, no, no impossible odds.

SPEAKER_00

All right, there's only two more. Has Tom ever argued with another country's security? I saw recently there was an incident with China security and our secret service agents, and they were like arguing. Tom, oh, both thumbs up, Tom. Has that happened?

SPEAKER_01

This is an easy one. Yeah, that's an easy one. Yeah. So yeah, it's uh you probably half a dozen different countries, you know, that are I sometimes it got so difficult that we were literally pushing each other off the elevators and pushing each other to get to the right spot. And uh it's really uh, you know, looking back, it was kind of petty, but uh ultimately it's important.

SPEAKER_00

That must be nerve-wracking for you, though, Tom, right? Because your what do you call it? Your protectee is going off, and you have this sense, it must be very nerve-wracking when you're in another country because you don't have the control over the circumstances like you do.

SPEAKER_01

No question. We certainly have a lot less, that's for sure. So we're really at the at the mercy of a lot of these countries. And some of them we, you know, I'm not into politics, but some of them we don't have great relationships with, and and they like to exert control wherever they can. And uh, you know, it's difficult to push the USA around so where they can sometimes. Some countries do try.

SPEAKER_00

That's terrible because we could do the same for their people.

SPEAKER_01

No, we largely treat uh our our compatriots better than we ever get treated.

SPEAKER_00

All right, and here's the last question for Tom. Tom, have you ever had a pop star fall in love with you? Have you ever had a pop star fall in love with you?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. My wife is a physician, she's not a pop star, so you know.

SPEAKER_00

Did you ever carry a pop star? Like something happened, and then you had to carry the pop star out of the way, and no she fell in love with you.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Were you ever were you ever in a pop star's like cool house, and then at night they came over and knocked on the door because they were so attracted to you? Because you're such a secret service star.

SPEAKER_01

Unfortunately, not. That's uh, and if it did, I'm gonna save it for the memoir. So I'm gonna save okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Could you hear the music? I didn't know I worked.

SPEAKER_01

I did. Oh, we we all heard it.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, let's get back to work. All right, all right, John. If you don't mind, I'm gonna let Dawn go because she has so much info and she's so excited. That's why Dawn's a great insurance person. You want good insurance coverage? Call Dawn. Dawn, I'm just gonna let you go right to it. What do you want to start with first?

SPEAKER_03

Okay, well, I do want to make mention about some discrimination claims that we have seen in condo associations where there are religious exemptions that must be made not to use electronics. For example, there are some religious observance of the Sabbath that require that they not use electronic items or digital items. So the elevator using uh key fobs are not allowed. So some of our communities have to be very careful if there's religious exemptions that need to be adhered to. Those accommodations, if the owner makes requests, you certainly need to discuss that with general counsel and make sure that you're following through because we do see large payouts on those claims.

SPEAKER_00

The other aspect Hold on, wait, that is so interesting. And I want to go to John really before you go to the thing. So I understand, like at my building, we have an accommodation where we leave our lights on because we, you know, because of a religious accommodation. It's easy to do, who cares, right? So, and they take the people take the stairs because you don't want to use the elevator. What I heard you saying, this can tie into not using security systems, Dawn. Is that what you're saying? Because this seems to impact the whole community instead of providing an accommodation. Is that what I'm hearing? And these are turning into lawsuits, correct. Okay, John. That seems like a like an interesting one right there.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I mean, so you do have, I know New York has anti-that they don't just have Fair Housing Act statutes, they have anti-discrimination statutes. So this, you know, your religion would be a protected class entitling you to a reasonable accommodation. Just what that is, um, like if you I guess if you have keep ops, then and you didn't your religion prohibited you from using them, you have to come up with a different way to allow access. Um so I yeah, I definitely could see it leading to lawsuits, and um makes a good point. These lawsuits usually end up um the the associations end up on the losing side. So you don't really you don't want to even be a defendant in that lawsuit.

SPEAKER_00

So I'm thinking of an example, tell me if this is right. I needed a combination, I don't want to use electronics on the weekend or or or something, so I'm given a key instead of using my father. Would that John, would that be a good example?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so so it it the issues are is case specific, they're reasonable. What's reasonable? Is it an undue burden to the community? So, like if you have to spend a thousand dollars on a new set of keys for everyone, um, that's not gonna be unduly burdensome. Unduly burdensome would be like you have to spend half a million dollars to retrofit something. So yeah, so it's a balancing act and and it depends on um it depends on the association, and the most important advice I give my clients is you have to engage in an interactive dialogue to try to come up with a solution.

SPEAKER_00

My non-legal advice would be call your attorney. Don't get involved in this one. Okay, Tom, see how interesting Dawn is? I'm not kidding you. Like I joke around. Dawn is very interesting. All right, Dawn, hit us with another one. I like this.

SPEAKER_03

Well, we got into a lot of data and talking about collecting that data. Most of our general liability policies will have um personal and advertising liability. We have premises liability. So the premises liability is when something happens on your premise and you're sued. But let's just talk about the data collection. Most all insurance policies exclude any type of claim where you uh have collected someone's information and that information has gotten out. We talk about that with respect to cyber insurance, and cyber insurance is really the only policy that's going to protect you with all of this um biometric type of information, the facial recognition, the license plate reading, all of that, again, is a cyber claim. And we talk about this all the time on these sessions, but I can't stress this enough. You um the the suits we're seeing in different states, they will actually penalize an association for every time it occurs. So, for example, if you have a penalty, if you're in a state that does have protections and there's about 10 of them right now, New Jersey, New York, for example, if you cause that violation, that could be $5,000 for every car, every person that walks through your community. So you have to be very careful and know what those laws are. And John, I'm sure, comes across this quite a bit.

SPEAKER_00

Hold on a second, John. Um, Tom, I'm gonna go to John here in a second, but I'm thinking, like, if you have the facial recognition system, maybe don't have it tied in with people's credit card information or people's social security number. Before I go to John, is there a way to separate some of these security systems from other data?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, certainly you want to protect and and segregate that data as much as possible to not only minimize the breach impact when it or if something gets breached, uh, but also the level of damage that can be done by each piece of information, right? So obviously credit card data is different than license plate data, and each of them have a different impact on the consumer.

SPEAKER_00

John, two things. Commentary on that, but also if you could push it a little further in regard to people subpoeding this information, right? Using this information, your coming and goings in a way that could possibly cause damages to. I think you know what I'm I'm getting at.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so so think I think of it like uh just having a videotape system. Um you know, you you you who's gonna look at it? What protocols you have in place to keep it confidential. So um the issue, the legal issue is privacy rights. So um you have to protect these privacy rights now with all these access controls, electronic uh information, you're you're acquiring potentially confidential information that could jeopardize privacy rights. So yeah, so there has to be a um so you're you're actually exposing the community to potential lawsuits for that, and that's what the ones referred to. And um, yeah, it's a problem. I mean, I'll I'll give you a kind of a silly example, but um I had a client once I had to defend a lawsuit because um the issue was where did this person live? Because non-residents didn't have the right to use the tennis courts. Um so so they said, Well, we know this guy lives outside of the premises. So I said, Alright, let me just confirm I got a copy of the guy's deed. These are public record. And he went to court and said, Because we found his deed, he had to go buy life lock. And he's been damaged. Which it was a joke of a point because these are public records, but you can see where I'm going.

SPEAKER_00

Yep. It's it's public information, you have to protect it to different degrees, and you need to check it out.

SPEAKER_02

So even something as silly as that, like you should have a protocol for not for keeping information that might be considered confidential. Um, you know, all right. Security committee can only look at this, for example.

SPEAKER_00

Really quick, Tom, and I'm gonna go right to you, Dawn, for another one here. How long do you recommend for people to what is is there a standard industry average? Dawn may even know this too, for for information to be held on to, right? In a security, you want it there long enough so you could fall back on it, but I is there an industry standard for how long to keep it?

SPEAKER_01

Are you referring to maybe like tax documents and things like that?

SPEAKER_00

No, I'm talking no, I'm talking about uh comings and goings, entry logs, facial recognition, you run the pool videos, things like that.

SPEAKER_01

30 days is probably sufficient. Uh ultimately, any longer than that, not only are you gonna come into a storage problem, but you're also gonna run into a volume problem, right? Uh, you know, but within 30 days of a crime has happened, that's that's usually sufficient uh to be able to recognize the crime has incurred and then to to have it there. But uh, whatever it is you want to just be consistent. So if you say you have 30 days worth of data and you should start deleting it after two, that's a problem.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. Uh Dawn, what else you got?

SPEAKER_03

Well, you know, I I really like what Tom just said, and I want to talk about this real quick about the length of time that we keep our data. And each state is gonna vary. And John can speak about how long New York requires you to carry documents. And for that, you know, oftentimes 30 days might be good enough to keep the data, but I can tell you we will get a lawsuit that is filed two days before the statute of limitations, which might be two years, might be three years. And the first question someone will ask is, hey, do you have any security footage? And someone will say, sure, but it's been rewritten, so it's useless. So again, as Tom's point is, if you're going to have that, keep up with it and maintain to what you state you will do. If it's 30 days, 30 days, 60 days, 60 days. If you can do longer, that's always preferable. Now, I think the other cases that I'd like to talk about are more of the perception of safety. And I have a question for you guys. And can I get into security guards real quick?

SPEAKER_00

Uh, yeah, but please don't get me sidetracked because we're not really here about security guards. Okay. Just I know where you're going, just stick with the perception of safety if you don't mind, please, but the camera.

SPEAKER_03

The perception of safety, the one of the largest awards, Champlain Towers, we know, was about a condominium collapsing. But I think a lot of people would be shocked to know, and this is one of my general trivia questions the largest settlement, over a half a billion dollars in that claim. It wasn't any of the people you think, it was the security company. Why? Because they didn't react fast enough. So what I want Impress upon everybody right now is contracts. Have a very good contract in place that limits the liability to the association and transfers the risk to that third party. But the hiring practices, the training of those who are involved, what are the emergency protocols? I know Tom spends a lot of time doing site assessments to determine work together. But if we don't start really at the contract point, we can be in a really big mess financially.

SPEAKER_00

So, John, let me hit you with a few things and I'll circle back to Tom here. Um as far as how long to hold on to the footage, why would an association want to hold on to the footage for two years? It seems like they'd be just doing themselves a favor by just deleting it at whatever the industry standard is, right?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I exactly. I'm I know in New York, uh, what Tom said is usually the case of 30 days, 30 to 90s is actually it doesn't apply to HOAs and condos, but uh co-ops. Um so landlords, it it actually has to be destroyed within 90 days. Or or destroyed or there's another word, it's hard to say. Anonymized. Make anonymized.

SPEAKER_00

Let me give you an example of a perception of safety. I think it's a good example. You tell me if I'm wrong. Um here at our building, I know all our cameras are monitored, right? But I know there's other buildings here on the boardwalk, and there's a sign that says, We're watching you, cameras in place. Heaven forbid, I get assaulted, right? Right under the camera, but it's a fake camera, right? It's there as a deterrent, it's not really there. I get dragged into the corner, somebody steals my you know, my candy bar or my sandwich or whatever I'm running around with that day. Um that's a problem, John.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, yeah. See, you you're exposing yourself to potential liability for uh given the false impression of security cameras. So that that's yeah, that's a definitely bad thing to do.

SPEAKER_00

Tom, I'm gonna go to Dawn next, but I see this as a widespread problem in so many different ways.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I I I see this often when there is a security guard, there is a human being, but there are more cameras than one human being could possibly monitor at one time. Uh, and so the perception is, hey, we have actively monitored cameras, is a phrase I'll hear. And then when you really dig down into it, like what does that really mean? That's really one person for 20 cameras that are also checking people in, that are also, you know, they're also also, you know, so are you really monitoring those cameras? You know then in reality the answer is no, and that's a gap there.

SPEAKER_00

I know in Atlantic City they have a camera system that is very, very large. But you know what? I heard there's like two guys who watch it from some of the cops only, you know, they're retired guys that they hire. You know, it's a it's a great job. It's not there, but it's really good for after, like you said, Tom. I really don't have much confidence in somebody spotting me having a problem.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Dawn, you brought this up. I meant you're still going to be kind of covered with your insurance, but man, you don't want to mess this up, right? I and I also think it's wrong to have people feel safe when they're not.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I I tell a lot of our boards, please don't act outside of the scope of your authority. You're a board member to protect the assets of the community, but speeding, you know, I heard earlier someone talking about speeding and having um speed monitors in the community. Guys, I mean, are you law enforcement? What are you doing with this information? That's the other aspect. You're collecting that information about how many people speed or how many people enter, but what is the information for? So that's something we have to think about because our directors and officers' liability isn't gonna protect us when we act outside of our scope of authority. And general liability, that's gonna pay out when we're legally you know required to. The judge says so. So I think it's very important that we look at what are our protocols, what do we do in events, and start having some more sense of communication with that, written and otherwise. And one last thing a lot of our insurance companies want the community to be notified when there is a violent incident or a significant circumstances. Why? Because they want communications, they also want the homeowners to be able to prepare themselves. And one of the incidents that we often see in our lawsuits is the failure to notify or that homeowners didn't have the opportunity to protect themselves because they weren't aware of the situation that was occurring. A lot of our boards like to keep that information tight because they're afraid of what people will say otherwise. So consulting with your attorney is super important on those matters.

SPEAKER_00

Actually, what I did too is I'm sending a message to everybody through the chat feature if you have it. Next week, I'm not gonna publicize this, but if you want to tune in, we're doing a pre-recorded on facial recognition. Hey, Tom, could you give a plug for you? You were kind enough to come out with your buddy John. Um, could you just pump that up a little bit for next week? And you know what, we'll allow our anybody watching now, and your friends could tune in too, but to tune in when we do this pre-recorded, what John's gonna be talking about.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. So John uh has a very unique background in the Secret Service, right? So, you know, uh, you know, people think of uh the folks driving or standing around or walking around with our elected leaders and our president and stuff, and that that is great. But there's also a cadre of technical security experts, right, that focus on the technical risks and how to mitigate those technical risks against our elected leaders. And so that's a different, it's it's a similar but different skill set. And so John's an expert. He spent the great majority of his long career uh in this technical aspect so he can speak to these issues like in intricate detail. Uh and so I think your your your guests are gonna really enjoy John's perspective because he will really get into the weeds about the technical pieces. Uh, you know, I call him and say, hey, I need X, Y, and Z done. What do you recommend? And he's like, oh, this is it. So John's a pleasure to work with, a great guy, very funny guy. Uh, you know, uh, in and uh I think everyone's gonna enjoy him. But John Tanney is his name and knowledgeable, he's forgotten more about technical security than most people will ever know.

SPEAKER_00

And you know, um, Dawn, you're gonna be there. John, you're gonna be there, I see. And I'm looking forward to it because this is gonna be kind of a geeky one, audience. If you want to learn everything about how this stuff works, this is the one for you to tune in. That's why I'm not actually gonna publicize it. But you're welcome to tune in and and and be there with us and ask questions and things like that, which would be absolutely awesome. I'm gonna try to ask them how you can get around this stuff, but they never want to tell us because that's always a negative. I don't know what you know. Uh oh, you're back, Tom. Okay, excellent. All right, Dawn, you sent such a long email. Let me see what else you got here. Poor lighting, faulty security systems, and out of well, you know, here's another question, Tom. Any security systems that you think associations should stay away from, because they're they're more faulty and problematic than people realize.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I think, you know, I don't want to go into any particular specific example of those, uh, but the alarm systems that I that I like that I recommend for all my clients are are lighting, motion-activated lighting. And I know that's a that's a very low on the technical level here, uh, but illumination and making sure it looks like people are physically present. Most home invasions or burglaries, they do not want to encounter a homeowner, right? They want to get in, that is their profession. They want to get in, they want to get whatever things of value and assets they can get and then depart. Uh, the more likely they are to be caught or identified or that someone is physically present to stop them, that to me is very, very beneficial. Uh, I know this is gonna sound crazy, but the family dog, the family pet, I mean, that's that's an old truism, and it really does ring true. Uh, as far as staying away from them, I'm not a huge fan of the alarm systems that alert directly to your local law enforcement community, uh, your local law enforcement. And I know you're thinking, oh, well, the faster we let the law enforcement know, the faster the response. The false alarm rate is like almost 100%. It's like, uh, and I've talked to lots and lots of officers, and they it's like white noise, right? I mean, yes, they're gonna respond and they're gonna do a good job, but when they get 30 of these to the same neighborhood and it's, you know, it's it's kind of defeating itself, right? So I try and avoid that, and I try and have if it's gonna be an alarm, it's an audible alarm to to scare away the the would-be intruders. I try and avoid the ones that go direct to law enforcement right away with no with no vetting.

SPEAKER_00

And I just sent everyone via chat the list that Dawn put together today. And she also had negligent hiring, non-existent or defective locks, no emergency protocols. Um, I guess, Dawn, I don't want to get too sidetracked here, but that's true. You see something, your security sees something, and you don't do anything about it, you're gonna have a big problem on your hands.

SPEAKER_03

People do not plan. Planning is everything. And a lot of the times I heard, well, this would never happen to us, or why would we care? We're not a gated community. What does that matter to us? Well, in North Carolina, very large lawsuits going to trial against an HOA, and we'll see how that winds up because that's gonna have serious implications. It's not a gated community. And so when we're looking at all this, we have to really look in a broad stroke of what we're doing as board members and uh owners. What can we do to help? And I love Tom pointed out about the visuals of an alarm system and also the audible factor. Um, and if you don't have dogs and you don't have an alarm system, plant some cactus.

SPEAKER_00

People actually play really bad music here to keep um unhoused people or homeless. It's true, it actually works. Um, this is another great one, Dawn, that you sent over. Um, and I would have never came up with this, so thank you so much. Tom, Dawn wrote unmonitored access points. I think we should talk about that.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know, ultimately it's incumbent upon you to understand how people can get in into your facilities, uh, whether it's your communities, et cetera. And and then what are you doing to mitigate unauthorized access? And if the answer is you know that you have a problem and you do nothing about it, there's that say due gap again, right? Uh, and now you're gonna have problems. And it's again, I'm I'm not a lawyer, but I would think that you could open yourself up to some litigation if you know you have an issue and you don't do anything about it. And then the next phase is let's say you do know you have an issue with a gate or something like that, and you then do something and put a band-aid on it or put some, you know, put some security theater on it, and you actually aren't doing what you say you do, now you have another problem. So uh again, it's multifaceted and ultimately at the end of the day, if if you ignoring these issues are not gonna make them go away, it's just gonna make it worse.

SPEAKER_00

I feel like Tom Associations should have layers of security. And I'm not talking like you're not the Pentagon. I'm not expecting you to go that far, right? But there should almost be like a control of access point if you need that, and then maybe a backup with a camera. Do you want to am I right on that or am I off base?

SPEAKER_01

I mean, well, certainly the layers of security is is a well-known process and procedure for for location security. And those layers don't have to be someone standing out there, they can be as simple as okay, you have a gate code and then you have a camera monitoring it, and then you have maybe someone responding to the camera, and then so you can have multiple things uh that someone would have to get through to get to your most prized possessions, probably your your person, your people, right? And so uh you want to make it as hard as possible to do that with as many layers. The problem that we run into, and I think all three have mentioned this, is when you say you have these layers and you don't actually, you know, the the bad, you know, the bad element, the criminal element are smart, right? And they're going to figure out what what what cameras are monitored and which are not pretty quickly.

SPEAKER_00

One thing from living in an inner city environment, and look, I've we've never had like a horrible thing here at my building, not in any means, but we do live in an inner city. There are I'm saying homeless people a lot because they tend to want to get in for a lot of different reasons and not always not to harm people, they just want a place to camp out, but they're very good at getting in, Tom. They are very, very, I meant very good. They they, if you have a weakness, they have all day to watch your door. Yeah, um, I don't I think people underestimate how good people could be to get in their communities.

SPEAKER_01

Uh we we see this in the cyber world a lot as well. You know, you have a lot of things on your plate. Every every busy executive in cybersecurity has a calendar full of meetings all day long, and the bad guy has no meeting schedule. They have nothing but time to poke at your systems and to find those weaknesses. And so this it's the same in the physical world.

SPEAKER_00

All right, let's do closing thoughts. We'll leave Tom for last. Let's go to Dawn. Dawn, closing thoughts on today's segment.

SPEAKER_03

I think that litigation is really increasing with our communities in connection with the perception of safety. So every community at least once a year should have a meeting with their local law enforcement, not saying attorney this time, but local law enforcement. Termine what are the issues in the area. Um, earlier, Tom mentioned crime score. We are looking at crime score from an insurance perspective. In fact, it is resulting in denying insurance for certain communities because the higher that the crime score is, the more potential there is for vandalism and for fires and for theft. And so insurance companies are saying we're not gonna play in that market. So it's important to also be active in your community to help cut down crime and to know your neighbor.

SPEAKER_00

Don, we have to do it as a topic. You never told me that about the crime score thing. That's a big deal. I thought that was discriminatory. Also, I thought that was discriminatory, but whatever, we'll figure it out. Let's do a second.

SPEAKER_03

It's not discriminatory, it's based upon statistics.

SPEAKER_00

All right. John.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I like so I I I I like Dawn's many points today, but it especially the last one. So safety. Um having a meeting with uh I I have a community that has every annual meeting, they have the local police officer go and they go over like you know the recent crime statistics and and what's going on. Um but it also makes a really important point uh that we haven't really touched upon is that um condominium's HOAs, they don't really they don't have any police powers. Um so if there is a crime being committed, you know, I think you can't just complain to the board because they they're not witnesses. You have to yourself go and ask for police intervention. Um so that yeah, that I mean we spoke about a lot of uh security-related issues, but that that's also a very important one.

SPEAKER_00

John, if someone's breaking into my unit right now, trust me, I'm not calling the front desk at my building. I'll be dialing 911. All right, uh, Tom.

SPEAKER_01

Some great points uh today. So that was great from different perspectives. I I really appreciated that and made me think about it in a different way. Uh, but from access control, right? You know, most of most of the people that are in these organizations, they're not security experts. And so lean on your local law enforcement, lean on security professionals, uh, you know, figure out what's out there. Uh, but whatever you do and whatever you engage with, just make sure that you're doing what you say, right? And it's better for the for the folks that live there. And it's also better in the event that something bad happens. You want to be prepared.

SPEAKER_00

You know, Tom, in like 15 seconds though, like relying on local law enforcement, I think, I think you should really rely on a security consultant for the most part, right? The cops aren't there to do a full security thing under building.

SPEAKER_01

They probably won't, but they certainly can, to John's point, they can tell you, hey, these are the the types of crimes we're seeing in this area, and and then you can go back and try and mitigate them from there. But at least that gives you a good starting point. But yes, I mean, uh certainly you need a consultant that can come in that understands the community as well and understands the financial limitations and uh where's the line, right? Where are you gonna go?

SPEAKER_00

All right, and I can't wait till next week, Tom. I'm so excited that you hooked me up with him. I have so many questions. Yeah, he's good. All right. I want to thank everybody for being here. Tom, always great to have you back. And I always get Tom on the schedule as soon as we're done with this one. I send him an email.

SPEAKER_03

Real quick, Tom, you do site assessments for condos and HOAs, right? So you will do it virtually as well as walking the premise to give people ideas.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, we'll do it virtually, uh, although it's preferable to be there in person, obviously. Uh, but yes, we'll do those assessments. And and you know, a lot of the points you brought up today, Don, were really a lot of the findings we get, especially when you hire a third-party company, you know, that that you know, that they don't have the say due gap is is enormous, right? You know, we have emergency plans. What's your emergency plan? Well, I call Jeff. That's my plan. Like that's not a plan. So uh yes, so the short answer is we'll we'll do those types of things at secure environment consultants.

SPEAKER_00

We're lucky we're lucky to have Tom. We really are. Tom travels all over the country, he's very much in demand. And Tom, I appreciate having you here. I appreciate John and Dawn too, but I can take advantage of them a little bit because I see them. But anyway, I appreciate everybody. Thanks, everybody, and I appreciate everybody watching. All right, bye, everybody. Thank you so much. See ya.

SPEAKER_02

Bye bye. Thank you. Bye.