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When the Board Turns on the Manager - How to Survive

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When the Board Turns on the Manager - How to Survive

It’s more common than most admit—new board members come in and immediately want a change. Instead of a clean transition, some managers find themselves dealing with one or two board members who make their job difficult, unproductive, or even hostile.

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YouTube: https://youtu.be/bh54uxemLnk

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In this candid session, we break down how managers can navigate situations where the relationship with the board—or certain board members—has clearly shifted. When communication becomes strained and interactions feel personal, what’s the right response?

We’ll explore where a manager’s responsibilities begin and end, how to handle difficult or disrespectful board members, and whether communication should go through individuals or the full board. We’ll also discuss when to involve your management company, legal counsel, or other professionals to protect yourself and the association.

Most importantly, this session focuses on practical strategies to help managers **maintain professionalism, reduce risk, and get through challenging board dynamics**—especially when the goal is to stabilize the situation until leadership changes.

You’ll learn:

How to respond when board members become adversarial

Whether you must engage with hostile directors

The role of your management company

When to document, escalate, or involve counsel

How to control communication and expectations

Practical ways to stay professional during difficult transitions

PANEL:

David Byrne, Esq. • Ansell Grimm & Aaron, PC • dbyrne@ansell.law • www.ansell.law

Raymond Dickey • AssociationHelpNow.com

Valerie Garcia Giovanoli, Esq. • McCabe, Trotter & Beverly, P.C. • valerie.giovanoli@mccabetrotter.com • www.mccabetrotter.com

Cory Kravit, Esq. • Kovitz Shifrin Nesbit • ckravit@ksnlaw.com • www.ksnlaw.com

John LaGumina, Esq. • The LaGumina Law Firm, PLLC • jlagumina@laguminalaw.com • www.laguminalaw.com

Jim Miles, CMCA. AMS  • Bluefield Realty Group • jmiles@bluefieldgroup.com • www.bluefieldgroup.com

Mary Ellen Saks • RCP Management Company • dsaksfamily@aol.com • www.rcpmanagement.com

This content does not constitute professional advice.

SPEAKER_04

I want to thank everybody for being here. I am Ray Dickey from South Carolina, Hudson Valley CAI, an association help now. We are covering many states. I'm not surprised that we had a lot of people register for this one. When the board turns on the manager, I kind of wanted to do this one. I know sometimes people are kind of like, oh, everything's so perfect, and that never happens. And if I just do a good job, everything will be fine. Unfortunately, that's not sometimes how the world works. Sometimes new board members come on and they want to get rid of the manager no matter what. They don't care. And it could be a very unfair situation and very stressful for managers. I wish the world was perfect, but unfortunately, it's not. This is a great one for comments. Please send comments. I don't use anybody's names, so feel free to ask whatever you like. I love comments. Don't send me anything too top secret in case I make a mistake. I see a lot of people already know the what to do. If you need CEUs, use that question feature and just type in CEUs. I need CEUs. If you're watching the recorded version, you're not watching that right now, unless you're watching it on to go to webinar on demand. You'll see CEU pop up a couple more times and you'll have to do something extra. But for our live audience today, you do not need to worry about that. That being said, I'm going to have our panel introduce themselves with who I see first, and that is Corey.

SPEAKER_00

Good morning, everyone. Thank you, Ray, for having me again. Uh, my name is Corey Kravit. I'm the managing principal of COVID Shiffred Nesbit's Florida office. Uh, we represent community associations statewide and nationally. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_02

All right. And John. Good morning, John Legumino from the Legumino Law Firm in Purchase, New York. We're just outside of New York City and we represent condominiums, co-ops, and HOAs throughout the New York City and Hudson Valley areas.

SPEAKER_04

And John was just saying that he loves the World Cup. So if you're someone that wants to go to the World Cup, call John and he'll be happy to go with you. He actually wasn't saying that, but he is. Thank you for being here, Mary Allen. It's your first time being here. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_05

Uh Dave. Good morning, everybody. My name is Dave Byrne. I'm the chairperson of my law firm's community association practice. And so Grimm and Aaron, we represent uh condominiums, HOAs, and co-ops in New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania. And hooray, Valerie's here.

SPEAKER_03

Hey guys, I'm Valerie Garcia Giovanoli. I'm the managing partner of my firm, McCabe Trotter and Beverly, that's a full service firm for community associations. I also presently serve as the president of the South Carolina chapter of CAI and on the Blue Ribbon Committee. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_04

Valerie, I'm putting you on the spot. If I if I wanted you to have an intro song, is there anything in particular that comes to your mind immediately for you? We could play it every time you come on. Anything come to mind?

SPEAKER_06

Rocky.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, okay. I like it. You went for that right away. Okay. Of course. We'll try to remember that. Once again, this session is heavy on comments. Please send these comments, and I would really love the audience participation. All right. So we're talking about today about a manager who feels like somebody on the board wants them gone, not happy with them. Maybe it's more than one person. It's obviously not enough that it's all of them or they would be gone. Um, and maybe rightly so, but we're talking about, you know, not everybody on the board. I guess my first question is now, Mary Ellen, you're new, and I'm not asking you to provide information on your own experiences because I don't like to put you on the spot like that. I'm asking you to give commentary on how you think the industry feels altogether. So your comments may not reflect your own opinion. You're well, you can give your own opinion if you want, but I like to give you that little disclaimer there. But do you agree that this is a thing? It exists.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. Especially when a new board member comes on, they bring a preconceived idea sometimes of the manager, and they want to change everything. And the manager is the first person they feel has allegiance to the prior board.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, that's a good point. Allegiance. I didn't think about that today. Um, I don't think that's in any of my slides. You're right. A lot of new board members feel like, hey, the manager is in with these board members, so I have to get rid of the manager because I have a problem with the other board members. Mary Ellen, I think that's probably not the case a lot of times, though. The manager's probably just doing a good job in working with the other board members, right? Why wouldn't they?

SPEAKER_01

We do, but they feel they come in with a preconceived idea, and it's our job to roll that rock up a hill and change their opinion.

SPEAKER_04

All right. So, John, I want to talk a little bit about continue, like when a manager feels things are off. I mean, have you seen this scenario play out?

SPEAKER_02

Of course, yeah. So um Gary Allen's right, you know, this you see this one, you have a um changing of the guard, so to speak. You have a group of owners um that think the old board was um wasn't managing the property properly. Um doesn't take much for that dissatisfaction to uh turn into um you know fraud and other insinuations and uh kind of goes off the rails. And anyone connected, and allegiance is a good word, um, with the old board, there's a suspicion about them. And it extends, you know, like definitely the property manager, but it extends to contractors too. Um yeah, I definitely see it.

SPEAKER_04

I love that you mentioned contractors. That's another angle I didn't think of, but let's concentrate on the board members for today. Um I knew you were gonna get you were gonna get corrected on that the minute you said contractors, John. Well, I can't help it. You guys love to go off topic. You feel like we have five hours. Allie's very busy, she doesn't have a lot of free time, she's got a lot of legal work to do, a lot of billable hours. And so does Corey. They don't have your lifestyle, Dave and John's. Um, so basically, what I want to do today, Dave, is I'm gonna go through the whole thing where I'm gonna set the tone that this is a thing, it really exists, and that it's not the manager's fault many, many times. That's kind of like what we're talking about today. Do you also agree that this is a thing? Yeah, I think it's a thing. Okay. Valerie, what about you? I meant you must see this, right?

SPEAKER_03

Oh, all the time. Um, and I I'm gonna second what John said it's not just managers, too, it's us lawyers as well. So I don't feel alone, but um, it happens to the board, uh, the managers quite often.

SPEAKER_04

I didn't even think about the lawyers either. Oh no, it's like totally expanding. Um, Corey, I think this was an easy one, I guess, to set to tone by the fact that how many people registered for this. Um and a lot of people feel this way.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I I think everybody's correct. Um, but I think as leaders, as managers, and us as attorneys, um, you know, we have to educate new board members to understand that our loyalty is to the association as a whole, uh, not to any individual board members who may or may not be on the board.

SPEAKER_04

All right, now you're getting off topic because now you're talking about lawyers. Well, I guess you could be talking about managers too, in that. Yeah, managers too. So Mary Alan, do you think that hi Jim? How you doing? Just so you know you're you're live, you're with us. I'll I'll have you introduce yourself in a second. Mary Ellen, do you is it always obvious, do you think, to a manager? I'm I'm guessing that it it probably is, but do you think sometimes it sneaks up on a manager that there's a board member out to get them?

SPEAKER_01

Um, I think you're aware because there's a tone set during the election, so you hear all the comments that are being made, and you have an idea if they're here to clean house, that's what their goal is. That's why they got elected.

SPEAKER_04

So, Jim, why don't you introduce yourself pretty quickly if you don't mind?

SPEAKER_07

So, my name is Jim Miles. I'm the director of HOA management for Bluefield Realty Group in Greenville.

SPEAKER_04

So, Jim, do you think I don't know what you heard or did in here, but when a board member is out to get a manager because they feel they're associated with a particular board member, it seems personal a lot of times. Do you agree? Why don't they just why don't they just make it the whole management company? Why do they always seem to want to target one board member? Or am I off base on that?

SPEAKER_07

I don't a hundred percent agree with that. Um, oftentimes there was a problem in the past that you know, perhaps they got a late letter or a garbage can letter and they just decided they're gonna get elected so they can retaliate. Um, but you know, usually when they want to do a wholesale change on the management company, along the lines of what Mary Ellen was saying, you know, you can tell if they're out to just get one person or they're out to clean house.

SPEAKER_04

It's interesting. Are you that sounds like almost like psychotic that someone would want to get on the board and get rid of a manager because they got a late notice because they left their garbage cans out? Um, I find that a little bit shocking. Does anybody else on the panel feel that that's shocking, or have you guys no?

SPEAKER_05

I uh I think that's I think that's kind of normal. I would think that's the kind of thing that you know, like if you live in a town and you the the the traffic light around from your house doesn't seem to ever get fixed, you run for city council. I mean that that seems to be the kind of thing that would motivate somebody to actually get involved in their community. But it seems ventral.

SPEAKER_02

Go ahead, John. I think it's it's frequent. I've seen it plenty of times.

SPEAKER_04

That is like so unfair. Well, like a board member breaks the rules, a manager just says they're sorry, no, sorry.

SPEAKER_05

I th I think I think that's the motivation. I think most most well, I don't know if I've added if I have actual evidence for this, but I would think that again, like anybody else who gets involved in something, once they get the information, they may temper their um their hostility. So it it it would seem to be that maybe there would be it would be an opportunity for them to say, like in my hypothetical, well, oh, you know, I found out that the reason why we can't fix the light is because there's some oh uh there's some legal issue with this particular intersection and uh you know the governor's involved or something. Like you know, you find stuff out. So it would seem to be that that the manager would then be freed from that kind of retaliation. So hopefully it's rare when it keeps going after you get the information.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, that almost seems the logical reason to want to get on the board, though. If you're unhappy about something like that, you have a right to get on there. Um, let me read some of the comments we got going on here. And also, Dave, that's a really good point, too. I don't know if I have that in my notes for today. If somebody could remind me later, there could be a change of heart. I want to ask you guys and ask the audience how often does someone's opinion actually change? Or do you find that it's set in stone once they're once they're out to get you, they're out to get you. Um, it seems to be especially true if the developer is the one who chose the management company. Managers could only guide and recommend correct ways of running the association. I like to keep my guidance and recommendations in writing. Rather have it be in rather it be in emails and minutes. Uh the board president is of one of the communities I managed is not out to fire me, but she micromanaged every aspect of what I did. We're gonna talk about what just micromanaging compared to hostility. I'm gonna go to the lawyers on that. Uh, we've had people come uh run for our board who was denied ARC architectural controls. I recently had that's totally vengeance. Um, I recently had a new board come in and make sure any additions or changes to the way a rules address or clarification of the guideline hammer is that draws up the cover of managing agent. I feel consistency is the key to turning that around. Micromanagement feels very hostile. All right, so that was my next slide. Valerie, let's try to distinguish the difference today between what is a demanding board member legitimately demanding, they have a right to be demanding compared to having an agenda that you just want to get rid of a manager unfairly.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, that's uh not uh legal at all. Um, but I think that um a board that's demanding can be difficult to work with, but um, in certain circumstances, it's understandable. I think um one of the comments that you just made in line with this was the micromanagement. And I won't jump ahead, but certain situations where you know at the end of the day, the director is on the hook for the decision or the acts or omissions by the board and um the manager is an agent. And when you have a good agent, you shouldn't have to be demanding or micromanaging. Unfortunately, not all managers are good, and let's just acknowledge reality, present company excluded. Um, and there have been times when a director has been personally impacted by that, and therefore it leads them to become demanding, micromanaging, etc. I think where it crosses into hostility is when I mean they're being disrespectful, demeaning, um, yelling, belligerent, uh, that sort of thing. So I do think there's a line there. It's probably pretty blurry, it meshes together. Um, and to the point of what I was just talking about with um uh managers that may not be um um uh operating to their standards, to the board's standards. I think the better solution instead of micromanaging is request from the company to change the manager or go to another management company where you can find a professional who knows what they're doing and is paying attention and holding the standards that the um that association requires.

SPEAKER_04

Okay. So let's assume for today that a board member wants to get rid of a manager for not any legit reasons, because that's basically what we're what I'm trying to focus on today and how what managers can do about it and what advice we can give them. If they if a board has a legit reason to get rid of somebody, fine. If one board member has a legit reason not to like the manager, fine. I think what I'm trying to concentrate on is when it's completely unfair to the manager and where is that line and what can they possibly possibly do about it. Corey, do you think Valerie made me think of something? Do you think some board members use micromanaging as a weapon?

SPEAKER_00

Um, I see it sometimes when there's a management contract where the board can't necessarily get out of it very easily, um, where there's you know, you might need cause in order to terminate it. So they're gonna be they're gonna micromanage, you know, and and and really focus on the issues uh to establish cause in some circumstances.

SPEAKER_04

So, Corey, are you referring to the the board, the manager being targeted on behalf of the management company, or are you referring to just the manager?

SPEAKER_00

Referring to the board targeting targeting the manager to get out of the management agreement.

SPEAKER_04

Okay. So Mary Ellen, what do you think about board members using not you're not referring to what you've experienced, you're just talking about what you've heard in the industry altogether? I want to just keep throwing that disclaimer out there. I think it's a possible thing, right? Do you ever find a board member will micromanage a manager just to get under their skin, just to irritate them, and in some form of retaliation? Have you ever heard of that being used as a weapon?

SPEAKER_01

They have, yes, they have to try to micromanage. And that's one of their ways of trying to push that manager out of the building in particular, because they'll micromanage to the point of they're deciding to look elsewhere for employment. A lot of boards, especially when they come on board, they do micromanage the management office often.

SPEAKER_04

You know, Jim, I'm thinking of like a board member that micromanages and their intent is to do what they think is best for the association, is completely different than a board member that's micromanaging a manager because they have a gripe with that particular manager. Do you agree with me or disagree?

SPEAKER_01

No, if they're good intention, absolutely. I mean, your bulk your goal is both of you is a well-run community. So it's in your best interest for you both to work together to solve whatever he thinks or she thinks is an issue.

SPEAKER_04

How about the board member that uses micromanaging as a way just to get under the manager's skin?

SPEAKER_07

Well, oftentimes the micromanagement, you know, comes from a long history. That's pretty much the way they've always operated, and they feel that they can get more quicker that way. Um, but going back to foundational items, and somebody mentioned earlier when you have an election and somebody gets on a board. So, in my experience, you usually know who's running for the board and why they're running for the board. They they oftentimes say it. Um, if they don't, you can usually figure it out because you know the players on the field. So I've had good experience where I actually just call them up and say, Hey, let's have a cup of coffee and find out what your goals are for the community. And when they feel heard, oftentimes that problem goes away. It solves itself. And then oftentimes you can uncover why they really are the way they're acting. Um, and I've had good experience with just sitting down with them one-on-one, not at a board meeting or before a board meeting, say, hey, you know, hey, Tuesday afternoon, can we get together for a cup of coffee and find out what your goals are? And they'll usually tell you right out front. And if you have a chance to address them one-on-one in a non-public environment, that usually works pretty well.

SPEAKER_04

Let's do this. Thank that's perfect. Let's let's do the uh what they can do. We'll save that towards the end. Let's keep, I want to stay focused on what the problem is, what the issue is, establish that, and then at the end, let's talk about all the ways how a manager can tackle these problems. So, Jim, don't let me forget about that in case we have to bring that back up. Okay. Um, going back to um you know new board pushback, I think you guys have already covered it greatly. Thank you so much. Um, I have a board president that doesn't want me speaking to certain other board members because they are not aligned with him. He is in his last term, and this situation leaves me in a challenging position. He is also a micro manager. John, this one sounds like a very unfair situation to the manager for sure. It doesn't look like that's the best intent for the association.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. I mean, the president is um while they the default is that they run the day-to-day affairs of the association between the meetings, they don't get to tell the board members who to speak to. That's that's ridiculous. Um that's excessive. It's not within their authority. So uh the manager but puts the manager in an awkward position. But um again, a lot of this is yeah, it's unspoken retaliation for perceived slights in the past. Um that happens. And yeah, like the garbage can, fine. Yeah, you know, maybe that's a something that's sticking in their minds, and it's it's unfair, but um there's there's little you can do other than I I think Jim's suggestion was the right one.

SPEAKER_04

Getting ahead of me. So let's do the what they could do all in one grouping so people could follow along and make notes if they want to. Um, I was disliked by a board because I was friendly with the homeowners they did not like. Uh, Dave, that seems unfair. Do you agree?

SPEAKER_05

It's it's definitely unfair, like a lot of things in life. I mean, that that's just part of the the that's that's definitely unfair, but it's not uh unusual. I think um a lot of a lot of managers to help them need the di there's a big difference, I think, between whether you're a direct employee of a of an association versus when you're an employee of a management company that operates pursuant to a contract. The dynamic, I think, is completely different there and how you have to navigate that and deal with the unfairness.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, so can you remember that? And I think I'm just gonna jump ahead to the solutions because we're just gonna end up going there anyway, which makes a lot of sense. Um, I had a condo association cancel our contract and never received the reason why. A majority of the board were brand new board members. I asked multiple times with no response. It uh I'm totally at a loss, but it's been a blessing. Can you say what the distinction is between micromanagement and follow-up? All right, Jim, give me a kind of a short description if you can do it. What do you think the difference is between just someone following up? When does that become micromanagement?

SPEAKER_07

Well, as you mentioned before, I try to do everything by email or well, I avoid text, but emails, and that way everything's in writing and you can drop back. And we just took on onboarded a new community yesterday that had the exact problem that you're mentioning that the management company got fired because somebody just woke up and said, you know, we're just gonna make a change. And um, I met with the lady that was driving that decision, and I said, Listen, hey, I I generally communicate, I'll pick up the phone. Talk to you, but I generally communicate by email, and that way if you forgot something you need to go back, you can find it. And I think when people see that you're kind of informally documenting the actions and your changes, you can accomplish that goal and try to slow down the micromanagement.

SPEAKER_04

Mary Ann, what do you think is the if you can, maybe you can't define it. Is it a feeling? What's the difference between somebody simply following up and micromanaging?

SPEAKER_01

Following up is a summary. Micromanaging is coming to the office every day, interfering in your daily work, wanting to manage even your minor decisions with staff. And if you change something, they want to be part of that whole change.

SPEAKER_04

Wow, you were right on that. Awesome. I requested a meeting with my management company and they refused to meet with me. What do you do about that? We can go over that in a second here. That sounds like an employment issue. What if you have a board member who is the point of contact and following the contract as it's defined to have a point of contact, but the other board members want to bully their way in? And the other board members may not like it. Um, Corey, this sounds like something that has to be done on the board level.

SPEAKER_00

I mean all you know, if if board members aren't having access to the property manager because of a contractual, you know, the contract says that the the president is the liaison to the board for the property manager. Bring whatever whatever issue you have up at a board meeting. That's the whole point of board meetings. Uh everyone gets to say whatever they want to say, that's where the work is done. Um and uh, you know, that that would be the solution for that.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, so we can can we all agree that crossing boundaries would be a form of when you want to get rid of a manager if it's done with ill intent. Anyone disagree? Just jump in there for me. Also, after hours, flicking instructions, repeated hostility, yelling threats, and insults and inappropriate comments. All right, Valerie, this is a hard one. I think it's hard. Maybe it's not. What is where would the line be for let's say inappropriate comments and what's the difference between like an insult and not an insult? Like, how does a where's the line? Is there a defined line?

SPEAKER_03

I don't think there's a defined line because some people have different behaviors, some managers have thicker skin. Um, I I can't help but go back to former Supreme Court Justice uh Stewart, I believe, has comments on on pornography, um, that it's hard to define, but you know it when you see it. Um and I so I think, sorry, I I think that's a perfect example here is that you know it when you see it when it crosses the line. Um, I mean, obviously any yelling, um, any uh vulgarities used, all of that would, in my opinion, be unprofessional and crossing the line.

SPEAKER_04

So, Dave, you have a famously thick skin, at least in public, your public persona. Do you agree? Yes, and privately as well. Okay. Um inappropriate comments. It's hard to put a definition on it as far as the law is concerned, correct? To a point?

SPEAKER_05

Very difficult. Valerie's comments were were perfect. It's very difficult, but the professional context, there are there are guardrails for that in you know, in terms of like workplace, um workplace-related laws, and uh and that that would that would go for managers that are are directly employed by an association and those that are working through a management company, but then there are contractual issues. Many many management contracts have clauses in there about how managers are handled and communications that take place, and you get charged more money if you call somebody after nine o'clock at night, that kind of thing. I mean, um so there are guardrails for these kinds of things when you're dealing with sort of the way the workplace is is handled, and managers are not exempt from normal American workplace uh controls, at least in my view. They're just like uh any other worker that uh and an employer who has to behave.

SPEAKER_04

So, Marielle, this would be an example. Maybe a manager would be uncomfortable with like Corey always tells me how I look good all the time. It says, Wow, Ray, you look great in that outfit. Wow, Ray, you look really good today. It's just constant shoulders up compliments about my appearance. And while it makes me uncomfortable, I don't really feel like it's a it's a legal issue. But if I was a board member and Corey, if I was a manager and Corey was my board member, that would be a different scenario. Do you agree? And can you help me with Corey's comments, Mary Ellen? I'm kidding, but go ahead.

SPEAKER_01

I think it depends on the relationship that you do have. I mean, you develop a working relationship, they know about your family, especially if you've been a long-term manager at the at the property. I think it's sad. It would be who says it. If it's a board member I don't like, I might find it inappropriate. But if we have that joking relationship, I would be fine with it. And I think the majority of managers are that way.

SPEAKER_04

And by the way, Corey's never said that to me, but you know, Corey, it would be nice every now and then if you threw me a compliment. I wouldn't mind, to be honest with you. So okay. All right, rebuild trust or escalate. So let's get to the part everybody kept I probably should have just put it first, Valerie. If everybody keeps pushing me in that direction, that was probably the way to go. Jim, I don't want to recap everything you just said, but rebuild trust or escalate. This is something that a manager could try probably try to do, makes sense, to reverse the course of action with a board member that wants to get rid of them. Your idea or what you've done is just have a cup of coffee. Has that worked out well for you?

SPEAKER_07

It's generally worked out very well. And you know, as formerly owned a management company, sometimes there's just a rub with the assigned manager to the building or the property. And you know, if you can uncover that, you know, it it usually helps early on. And oftentimes, if you just change the representative for the community, that works out very well. And we found that you know, when there's you know a recall or a wholesale change of the board, we generally come in and come right out and say, Listen, I think it's in everybody's best interest. We'll just change the management representative, and that way you can deal with them in the in the path that you wish to deal with them, and you can accomplish the goals that you wish to deal with. Because oftentimes, especially in the recall situation, um, they got rid of them. Oh, they they removed the board in their mind for a reason. And oftentimes, you know, as other people have said here, the manager gets lumped into those decisions. So if you change, oftentimes you know, new broom sweeps clean and uh you can move on. Oftentimes it just takes the bullets out of the gun.

SPEAKER_04

Mary Allen, I think a lot of managers don't even get the opportunity to meet with these people that are out to get them, right? They they get all their information secondhand. I think if they did meet with the manager that they're out to get, they could find that they don't really know the manager that well. Do you agree?

SPEAKER_01

I do. And like like Jim said earlier, with the new board that comes in, you sit down and you basically onboard them because they have an idea of what being on the board is like, which is nothing what the reality is. So you sit down, you hope you rebuild that trust with them or show them treat them with the professionalism that you expect back. And it it could change.

SPEAKER_04

So, John, there's a manager, they feel like there's a board member out to get them, not for any legit reasons whatsoever. Do they tackle it first on a one-to-one, or do they maybe bring it up at the full board meeting?

SPEAKER_02

Bring it up at the full board meeting. Um, I so the so if it's if it's a board member and not most of the board members, that's that's how to do it. Because I I think the issue that you're probably dealing with is a split board. And maybe um maybe a minority of the board has a problem with the property manager, but the property manager has a support of the majority of the board. Um, because if it was if most of the board members want the property manager there, they would just change. Right. I mean, most property managers they they they do have termination clauses in their agreement, but if the full if the majority of the board doesn't want them, they're probably just gonna resign on their own. So I'm assuming that it's a split board, and I think I I think best practices that I've seen is once the dissident board members see what the property manager is actually doing on a weekly and monthly basis, their opinions hopefully slowly change.

SPEAKER_04

I'm gonna be interested, audience. I I would love to hear what you think about this. Do you go to the whole board or do you just tackle it individually and hope for the best? Valerie, I think we may see a difference here between attorneys and what our audience of board members and managers think. Maybe we won't. Maybe you'll have a different opinion. What do you think? You you got this board member, they don't like you, you're a manager, you feel it's unfair. Should you just reach out to them on one-to-one, or do you have to maybe bring it up as nicely as possible at the at the board meeting?

SPEAKER_03

Not both. I mean, I mean, I think I I love Jim's idea of, you know, take them to lunch, take them with coffee, get to know them, try to build a relationship, you know, so often in in any profession, you feel like, well, you know, my experience should earn me a certain level of um respect, or they should know who I am, or sometimes you have to earn it. And um, there's nothing wrong with that. You know, I'll put the entitlement aside and say I'm gonna try. And once you, I think a lot of this discussion has been centered around unreasonable board members, which I don't think there's any strategy that's gonna work with an unreasonable board member, but um, you should make an attempt to build that relationship, to have the discussions with them one-on-one about what your issues are, and then ultimately, if it's necessary to bring it to the other director's attention or in a board meeting, or even your employer if you're with a management company. Maybe the solution, I think someone else said it, is um, I think Jim said that they reassign another manager. Sometimes it's just a personality conflict, but they're not going to get passed.

SPEAKER_04

So many people are saying I would approach the board member individually first. If I don't find approvement, then I would approach the entire board. Um, there was a I I read this as I see him audience too. Sometimes that they feel disjointed. Um, there was a person who got onto a board and started harassing the management company to the point that the company terminated the contract. A few months later, the owner even got people together to try to bring back the management company. Our management company has convinced our uniformed board members that they are a partner, yet our contract fully protects our management company beyond the life of the contract. And then oh, oops, enough votes. Okay, I know it's a little bit disjointed. I'm trying to keep up with some of the comments here and kind of like mess around with them a little bit so they don't get too uh too targeted. Um, Dave, individual or you got this board member, they don't like you, they want to get you, they want to get you out. You feel like they want to get rid of you? Do you go to the board member first, one-on-one, or do you go to the entire board and bring it up nicely?

SPEAKER_05

Probably one-on-one. I um I don't, I don't, I mean, you mentioned like you know, thick skin before. I it does I don't necessarily take it personally when someone runs for the board or tries to get on the board and even has harsh elect electoral, election-related, harsh talk. I mean, I think I think people are entitled to their own opinions and they're entitled to be skeptical of you as a manager. And uh Valerie was right. You're dealing with someone reasonable people who are just immature and horrible, then it's there's nothing you can do anyway. But I don't I think most people, unless you're I mean you're managing a community that's filled with probably relatively normal people, and most of them are probably going to be receptive to the idea that you respect their right to be pissed off about something, and you'd like the opportunity to edu educate's probably a very patronizing world, but you'd like the opportunity to share some information and see where things go. I don't know that it necessarily has to be hostile when you get to that point, you know, unless someone makes it that way after the fact.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, I think, Corey, if you have an unreasonable board member who's out to get you, um, I'm actually for the meeting one-on-one first, but they could definitely turn it hostile for no reason whatsoever. I meant if somebody like you guys had even mentioned, there's people that want to come on boards because they got a late notice, you know, or they didn't bring their garbage pail in. Um, Corey, individual or full board? Do you have an opinion either way?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think as a property manager, you're the leader of the community and you have to use your leadership skills to get people to follow you. It's it's basic logic. So you have to figure out the personality of the new board member or the board member who you're having issues with and figure out am I gonna get further with them with sugar or am I gonna get further with them standing up to them? Um, it depends on the personality type, just like you would any relationship with any other person.

SPEAKER_04

So I guess what you're saying, Corey, is if you feel you can have a productive one-on-one conversation, go for that. But if you just feel there's absolutely no point, go for the board. Is that what you were saying?

SPEAKER_00

You gotta you gotta take it as you see it.

SPEAKER_04

All right, Mary Ellen, I saved you and Jim for last on this one because I was curious to see. We have, you know, we had some different opinions back and forth, and the audience by far is um talking about uh doing it one-on-one, but there are people here who are telling just go to the entire board. Mary Ellen, what do you think? What it, what, what advice do you think for the industry as a whole? You're a manager and you're being untreated unfairly by a board member you feel is out to get you. Um have a one-on-one or just go right to the board?

SPEAKER_01

No, I would do one-on-one. And if you're not comfortable with that situation, then ask another board member to be present with you. But I would try, I think they would become more aggressive if you brought this up in the entire board. I think you'd be better off one-on-one.

SPEAKER_04

Okay. And then, Jim, you already kind of started in this direction with the one-on-one advice, and that has worked out well for you. Um, you know, Jim, I made this little cartoon here. How do you go about talking to someone about it? Do you go in angrily? Do you have a problem with me? Or are you ever maybe off saying, are there any concerns about my work? Um, I think how you phrase this as a manager is gonna make a world of difference of how productive this meeting is gonna be, or this topic, or your the issue. Do you agree?

SPEAKER_07

I I totally agree, but the other thing is you know, if you're in this industry for any length of time, you you can't take things personally. Sometimes people they're having a problem somewhere else in their life and they just want to take it out on somebody. So if you just listen, nod your head, and uh get to the core problem, um, they'll deal with. I don't know that I would confront them so much as you have you have a problem with me. And I know the cartoons there for for a reason, but you know, oftentimes when you just get them to talk, they'll just tell you what the problem is, and you can address that problem with it without inviting other problems into the room because what the manager thinks may the problem may be, may not be the problem at all. It may just be, you know, as I said, you know, the ARC violation or the ARC application, whatever the whatever the problem may be. So if you take that right out on the table and address it, oftentimes I've had very good success when you get to the root cause of the problem and talk about it and say, listen, let's just start with a clean slate here and move forward more often than not. But you know, I'd love to say that every time it works, it doesn't always work every time. And there are people, and I think we talked about it earlier, that they're just out to get you. And as Corey said, they're looking for cause somewhere along the way. And it's been my experience sometimes when they're just that way, especially if you have the whole board. You sit down and say, Listen, is there any way we can work this out? And if you can't work it out, because they're just gonna, I've had them come right out and say, We're just gonna keep on you until you quit or die.

SPEAKER_04

Well, that's definitely not good what's whatsoever. Um, you know, Barry Allen, I gave two examples here, right? I gave an obvious bad one. Do you have a problem with me? And then I gave one that I threw in there. Are there any concerns about my work? Do you have any other advice? You have this board member, they're out to get you, you're uncomfortable around them, they feel like they don't really know you. Is there anything? I'm putting you on the spot here. I could come back to you if you want. Is there any other approach you feel would be beneficial? How could you go about what should your first comment be with this board member?

SPEAKER_01

I might not be able to say it on camera. Um I I think we you have to maintain your professionalism, sit with him. Know that we both have the same common goal, it's the community, but I would, after my conversation, I would send an email documenting what was discussed.

SPEAKER_04

Okay. So let's get into the legal aspects. Okay. There is a board member, they're unreasonable. You can't meet, you meet with them, they don't care. They want to get rid of you. There's something about you they don't like. They haven't told you what. So obviously, if it's discriminatory, that's a whole other different issue, but they just don't like you. They they want to get rid of you. They're micromanaging you, they're they're they're going out of their way to make life tough on you. Let's start with the legal aspects of this, Valerie. Also, let me jump around, Valerie. Dave had mentioned that it may make a difference too if they work for a management company or you're self-employed. So help me out with that, too, Valerie. What can a manager do when it's reached this point?

SPEAKER_03

Well, I think the distinction with employee versus what I'd call an independent contractor, there are different laws that apply, including something we discussed earlier, like inappropriate comment um comments, um sexual harassment, not necessarily going to apply to an independent contractor, but to the legal point of someone's trying to get rid of a manager, um I would look to the contract first. Is the manager's conduct, their acts or omissions, do they constitute a breach, a material breach of the contract? Um and if so, which I don't think in this situation they would, because we're talking about an unreasonable member, board member, um, then the board could uh terminate the contract and move on to another management company. Um, if it isn't, then um, I think we get into legally, they can't just fire you for no reason. They can't just terminate the contract with no reason without following any termination provisions that are contained in that contract. Sometimes there are provisions that say, hey, just 90 days notice and you have to pay us a transition fee, et cetera, et cetera. Others you have to buy out the entire contract um the rest of the term. So um I think that would be one issue that I would highlight that it is the manager's conduct, does it actually constitute a material breach of their management contract, such that the board or that director uh convincing the rest of the board could terminate the contract for calls?

SPEAKER_04

You know, Corey, three people from the audience sending comments that basically said define unreasonable. Unreasonable is subjective. Um, you're a manager, you feel like you're it's you're in an unreasonable situation, unfair, unjust. It has nothing to do with the contract that they could find. But should you how should you let's talk up? Let's be honest. Let's talk about the nitty-gritty. How could you position yourself, protect yourself down the road? You're a manager, you're gonna get possibly fired by this person, or they're gonna aggravate you. What could you do now to protect yourself for down the road?

SPEAKER_00

I think you have to document the incidences or or or what happens. You need to speak to your regional director or your your boss, uh, if it's a management company situation. Um and and you know, and you know, the other thing you could do is you know, look at look in the mirror in some cases. You know, nine times out of ten, you're getting this reaction because of the actions, you know, it's a reaction to your actions. So look at the mirror, see if there's any changes you can make uh to to move things along better.

SPEAKER_04

It's a reaction to your actions. You should look at your own actions first to see if maybe you could change something. And even though it may be a little unfair that you're getting this reaction, it could make for a better environment. Um John, you're a manager, you're it's over the line. This person is out to get you. Um, you could lose your job down the road, maybe not. What can you do? What legally can you do? Any anything else to add?

SPEAKER_02

So um I don't want to I I don't want to repeat what we just heard. I they're all best practices. Um what I do want to point out is that if if in my experience, if the majority of the board has a problem with the property manager and it can't be resolved, um you kind of both sides will know it. And you know, Valerie mentioned before, many management agreements have out clauses. Um 60 days, 90 days, um, 30 days. So just if you have an outclause like that, and most of the contracts are review, I I insist on them, um, that it's time to give notice because um at a certain point, like you're not it's it's not productive for for the management agent to stay.

SPEAKER_04

All right, let me throw this scenario at you, Dave. Okay, let's assume that the majority of the board doesn't have a problem with you because the way I look at it, the majority of the board has a problem with you, that's a completely different scenario if there's one board member who's just making your life miserable and just wants to either put you in a position where you could be fired or just wants to aggravate you out the door. In that scenario, Dave, what can a manager do?

SPEAKER_05

It depends on the situation. Like, I mean, if you work for a management company and you're assigned to a property, let's say you're like you're like Mary Ellen, yeah. I think I presume that she's assigned to a property, she goes to a building every day, she works for an asset location. You work for a management company, like the the board can't fire you. I mean, like they maybe they have contractual rights with your management company, but maybe you'll be assigned to another building that maybe will make you happier. Uh it really depends on your your situation. You know, it's it's um it's not like when you work for a management company, you're really subject to necessarily that kind of that kind of um uh consequence. That like uh an angry board member can just like get you fired as a from a from a job. So maybe it depends on what the kind of language terminology we're using. Are you mean fired from like your job and you'll be unemployed, or do you mean you'll be your your supervisor will be asked to reassign you? I mean, is that I mean the two different, I think.

SPEAKER_04

Three things. One, you could be self-managed. Two, I'm sure there's been plenty of managers that have been fired from their management company because of the actions of a board that were not legit or ethical. And then three, is it fair that a manager has to be transferred from a community they love because one particular board member had it out to get them? And before you answer, Dave, I'll give you a second there. Jim, do you agree these are do you feel these are possible scenarios, or do you think they would never happen?

SPEAKER_07

They're absolutely possible, but I I think you know others have mentioned it. Sometimes it's just not worth going to work in the morning to be unhappy and you know, just untrodden and beaten down. And that's sometimes the goal of the pro managers, they just want to beat you down and you don't even enjoy the whole reason you got in this industry was to help people. And and when you go there and you just feel that there's nothing you can do, sometimes it's just better to turn up and move on.

SPEAKER_04

That's that's my point for today. One of my points. That's not fair, and that's what we're talking about here. It's not fair that someone is down here to beat you down and make it to the point you quit. Let me go to Marion for a second, Dave, and then I'll bounce back. And you know, Marion, do you agree that these are scenarios that exist?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, absolutely. In addition, you have to factor in. Sometimes the managing agent or the company wants to maintain the account, and you could be the sacrificial lamp. Thank you. You know, you you want to maintain your professionalism, but like Jim said, it's hard to go every day to something where you're being berated or constantly manipulated throughout the day, that it's not working.

SPEAKER_04

But this is what I want to talk about. What can a manager do in that scenario? That's not fair, it's not appropriate.

SPEAKER_05

What can what can a manager can do is preserve his or her position with the management company, have value other than just simply the relationship with the board of the board members in front of you. I I don't, I mean, if I have a an employee who a client doesn't like, but I think that employee is awesome, I'm not gonna turn, I'm gonna assign him or her to another client. Like I, you know, like in terms of preserving your own, I don't know what you can do to preserve your position at that building when you're dealing with unreasonable people. But to protect yourself, like your livelihood, you create value to your management company. And I think in this, certainly in this industry, really solid managers are really valuable people. And if you're a solid manager, a couple of chuckleheads at some building you're at are not gonna are not gonna be allowed to drive your career uh into the ground. That's that's just been my experience.

SPEAKER_04

But they do, and Mary Ellen was uh also backing me up on that a little bit. Corey, they do they do drive people's careers into the ground. So are we saying that there's absolutely nothing a manager can do in this scenario? Oh well, you're out of luck. The management company doesn't care about you. Uh the majority of the board, and I also wanted to talk about they're not supporting you. Okay, there's nothing you could do. You can just be annoyed, harassed, micromanage right out the door, Corey. Are we telling managers that's it? Go do something else.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, if you want to have the victim mentality, then sure. But if you want to be a successful property manager in an extremely tough industry where you're getting, you know, being a property manager is one of the toughest jobs I could think of. You need to make yourself indispensable. You need to make yourself better, you know, to Dave's point. Um, and if you're indispensable in any industry, um a few knuckleheads aren't going to make a difference.

SPEAKER_04

Valerie, um, comments on a very unhappy board member. I have a very unhappy board member that was elected in November, has been causing trouble since day one. She's going around telling people that if she is going to get my manager fired in a few weeks, what should we do? I am the assistant manager. I don't work for a management company. There is no oversight in this industry. Valerie, just run with it in any direction you want at this point.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, these are sometimes impossible situations with no solutions, but I guess the only thing maybe I haven't heard that at least in my state it would not be illegal is the manager to get the community involved, maybe through another director who likewise has problems with this director, to petition for a special meeting to remove and change the board member. I mean, here in South Carolina, there's nothing illegal about that. Um, but you know, you talk to your other board members, they say, yeah, this person's a headache, we don't want them on the board. Um, there could be a potential campaign, not spearheaded by the manager. I certainly wouldn't be the front person, but you can organize that. And if uh the membership agrees that this director is um no good for the association, then they could vote to remove and and replace them with someone else. And that that could potentially be a solution.

SPEAKER_04

Thank you so much for bringing that up because that was one of my slides. Mary Ellen and Jim, I'm gonna let you pass on this one whether or not a manager should go to the community and get the community involved. Um, you can raise your hand if you want to offer commentary. John, what do you think?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, the other option, in addition to what Valerie said, to dealing with a what I'm gonna call a dissident board member, um that just has it out for the property manager, is um because they're undermining the rest of the board, right? By doing that, is is if warning you could warn and you could find a board member for interfering with the community's contract. Um if that doesn't work, most bylaws will allow you to set up uh executive committees comprised of whoever you want um to carry out the duties of the board. So you kind of the optics are bad, but there's it there is a way to freeze out the dissident board member from a lot of a lot of this.

SPEAKER_04

So you're talking about the manager encouraging the other board members, which right to do this.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I'm invisioning a scenario where the also the board likes the property manager and is one that has a problem.

SPEAKER_04

Well, I'm I'm putting a scenario out there, John, that the board is not supporting the manager, right? Which doesn't mean that they're out to get the manager, they just don't care, you know.

SPEAKER_02

So then it goes back to what we were saying, just like if the managing management company wants to preserve their contract, they should swap a manager out, right? That's the way it's usually done. And if it's just if it's gotten really bad, then they you know give you a 90-day notice.

SPEAKER_04

All right, Corey, I don't think I went to you on this one yet, did I?

SPEAKER_00

Um looking for the comments.

SPEAKER_04

What do you what do you think about getting a community involved?

SPEAKER_00

I I don't I mean, listen, the community voted the board in. Um the board's doing their duty. I don't necessarily like the idea of going to the community.

SPEAKER_04

I don't think I went to you on this one either.

SPEAKER_05

It would be weird when when I see and I've seen it, you know, a manager or management company is having a problem or is on the edge of being moved, and then there's some letter sent out to the owners accusing board members of stuff. That's that usually I I haven't seen that be successful. That's like unseemly in a lot of ways. I don't I don't know you get very far with that. Like if a management company has a legit claim, a legit legal position, it should take a legal position, but like getting into the gutter politics of the democratic process in the community is pretty unseemly for an outsider. It's pretty rough. I'm with Corey on that.

SPEAKER_04

The the audience is all over the place. They don't actually disagree with it. And they said if it's done in the proper way, um, why and some people are saying, why not? You know what I mean? If the person's so unreasonable anyway, as long as I stick to my ethics and do what I think is right. Some people are saying as long as the information is accurate. You know, this was another thing I wanted to bring up really quick. Don't worry, Mary Ellen. I'm not going to put you on the spot with this, but I wanted to bring it up. I just want to get it out of the way. Managers know a lot of dirty laundry. You know, um, have you ever heard, not you, not anybody you know, but have you ever heard of a manager throwing some dirty laundry out there um with a board that's just out to get them or just one or two board members? But uh this this is still obviously advisable not to do this. But I don't I didn't want to ignore it, Marilyn. Do you think I was wrong for even throwing it up there?

SPEAKER_01

No, I mean we all know dirty laundry about everyone, but we don't we talk about that when we go out for cocktails. We don't talk about that to spread it amongst the community.

SPEAKER_04

You know, Jim, I just didn't want to ignore it because there's a lot of managers that get angry, and I'm sure they say, if I send a letter out to the owners about this and that and the vacation the board members took or the stick dinner they had, that's the end of them. Jim, it's out there, but I'm gonna go to the lawyers on this. But I can't imagine anyone's gonna think this is a good idea. What do you think?

SPEAKER_07

Never ends well when you do that. I mean, because it uh it's just a ticket because if you had a five-member board and three of the people supported you and the the troublemaker was out to get you, and the other person stays on the fence. Oftentimes you're gonna lose some of those three supporters that you have. So um yeah, it goes back to my you got to have a thick skin, or you know, Dave's commenting, you gotta have a thick skin. If you throw out the dirty laundry, it's pretty much a cricket to getting fired.

SPEAKER_04

All right. So let's bounce around. I want to give everybody plenty of chance to go wherever they need to go on this. Mary Ellen, um, I'm gonna start with you on closing thoughts. I tried to touch upon a lot of different issues today. Um, I feel like we kind of kept glossing over the fact that managers are left hanging out on their own a lot. Sometimes we like the management company, but sometimes they're just left hanging. And I wanted to try to help those out today. Anyway, what do you think about this topic? Is there anything we didn't discuss?

SPEAKER_01

Or no, but I think as a manager, you have to keep emotions out of it, you have to maintain your professionalism and document everything.

SPEAKER_04

Jim, what do you think? I mean, I I feel bad for these managers too, because I hear from them and they just they don't want to leave the community, they love it there.

SPEAKER_07

That's uh unfortunately the pitfalls of this business. Sometimes you love it, but you know, it's time to take stock. And as Corey said, the first thing you need to do is look look in the mirror and see if there's something really valid to what they're raising. Um, because oftentimes what you may not think is a big thing, if you really are honest with yourself, sometimes it is a big thing and you need to look at it.

SPEAKER_04

Corey, I mean, what do you think?

SPEAKER_00

I don't think it's all doom and gloom. I think sometimes, you know, if there's a change in the board, this is an opportunity to you know fix things in the community that that you see wrong and and to explain that to the new board member, uh, build a new relationship, and you might not get along, uh, at least in the initial phases, but you uh as you build trust with one another. I mean when my my paralegal I when I met her 18 or 19 years ago when I was an associate at a firm, I couldn't stand her. I didn't like her. I wanted a different paralegal, and we figured it out. We work together, and we've been working together for almost 20 years now. Uh and I couldn't imagine doing my job without her. So you gotta find ways. You you don't you you you gotta work towards a relationship. Um, and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

SPEAKER_04

Can we get her on the live stream? I would love to talk to her. I have like a thousand, I have a thousand questions.

SPEAKER_00

She's busy right now.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, she's too busy. You can contact me anonymously. I think you know, there's some like freedom of the press or something. I don't know how it works, but just contact me parilegal. I'd like to get the inside scoop on what's going on with Corey. All right, John, what do you what do you think? Um I agree.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, I I agree with what Corey just said. Um, you know, barring an extreme situation, sometimes what you you just might need to do is be thick skinned and show them by how good of a manager you are that you actually aren't corrupt and you aren't stealing money and you are doing the right thing.

SPEAKER_04

Uh we by the way, Valerie just sent me a tax her power went out. So that's why we lost Valerie. So, you know, uh Dave, um what do you think? Anything we didn't touch upon? I I feel like we kind of left it. Ah, it's a tough industry. If you don't like it, I uh is there any legal avenues or I I guess it's got to be so bad.

SPEAKER_05

Go ahead. I was gonna I was gonna add something that you know we use the uh dirty laundry thing, sort of like a euphemism and sort of sort of a joking, cynical type of term. But um, I think maybe Corey and John will recognize this. You know, a lot of times um with there's like a litigation or a legal dispute, this sort of dirty laundry thing comes up like look, guys, until this lawsuit's over, this relationship needs to remain intact. You know, we need our we need our manager at her deposition to with us, our board members at their depositions to be with us. You know, we because once you start to take different positions and your startup acrimony, um you know, if everybody tells the truth at a deposition, they're supposed to, but there are things you add when you want to when you want to dig someone dig a knife into someone's side, you can add something that you wouldn't otherwise add if the relationship is is a healthy one. And so that's I've given that advice too to boards and managers. Like, look, this is something we need to put aside for now because we need to get through this deposition because everybody's got things they can say and not say that could be helpful or hurtful.

SPEAKER_04

Mary Ellen, do you see what Dave does? He just brought up a whole other topic. I'm so interested in. Like, if you're in a deposition and you know dirty laundry about the association, like do you got to hold back if you can and all this other stuff? That's like a great topic. I would love to hear about that, but we don't have time. Mary Ellen, you survived. Was it okay? I did, thank you. Can Dave and I come and visit you one day? And then Dave.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

We're gonna catch the path and go in the city though, and then hang out. Absolutely, anytime.

SPEAKER_05

Go to McSorley's afterwards.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. I want to thank everybody for being here, and I want to thank uh the audience also. Bye, Jim. It's too late. We already said goodbye to everybody. All right. Anyway, bye, everybody. Thank you so much for being here.

SPEAKER_06

Thank you.