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High-Rise Components That Cannot Be Ignored

• Raymond Dickey

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High-rise communities face a different level of risk, cost, complexity, and resident disruption when major building systems begin to age. This one-hour CEU webinar explores why reserve studies are only the starting point, how boards and managers should think about capital planning, and why elevators, facades, balconies, roofs, plumbing, parking structures, fire/life safety systems, maintenance history, inflation, insurance expectations, and resident communication all matter before a crisis or special assessment occurs.

YouTube: https://youtu.be/hq3FKvRRD1I

Viewers may watch this webinar on demand from July 1, 2026 through August 1, 2026 for CEUs. High-Rise Components That Cannot Be Ignored available from Jul 1, 2026 12:00 AM EDT - July 31 11:59 PM at: https://attendee.gotowebinar.com/register/7061191672666797398

To receive CEU credit, participants must actively engage during the webinar using the Question feature. Throughout the session, prompts will be provided, and attendees are required to respond within the Question panel to confirm participation. Failure to respond to these prompts may result in ineligibility for CEU credit, as engagement is required to verify attendance.

It may take our office up to one week to send CEU confirmation.

Panelists:

Andrew Sytnik, CMCA • FirstService Residential • andrew.sytnik@fsresidential.com • www.fsresidential.com

Dawn Becker-Durnin, CIRMS • Acrisure • dbecker-durnin@acrisure.com • www.acrisure.com

Todd Walter, PE, PRA, RS • Reserve Advisors, Inc.• todd@reserveadvisors.com • • www.reserveadvisors.com

Raymond Dickey • AssociationHelpNow

This webinar does not replace professional advice.

SPEAKER_01

It is a pre-recorded segment. So, with that being said, if you are here for CEUs, if you're not here for CEUs, it doesn't matter. If you're here for CEUs and you're watching us on YouTube, nope. You need to be on our go-to webinar system. Dawn, what am I going to say next? We can't hear you. You're muted. Dawn hates when I put her on the spot, Todd. She's done 500 of these yet. She still doesn't remember what I say. Dawn, what do I tell people for the CUs for the recorded version?

SPEAKER_03

Ray, I'm going to get it wrong. I'm just going to get it wrong. If if you need to, you can put your information into the chat. And now I'm wrong. See?

SPEAKER_01

Okay. If you're here for CUs, everyone has a question feature. When you're prompted on the recorded version, you'll just put CEU and that lets me know. And that lets me know the educational organizations we work with that you were here. So once again, use that question feature to enter CEUs. But if you're not here for CUs, don't worry about it. Continue watching on YouTube or listening to the podcast or whatever you would like to do. So uh comments and questions if you send them to me. I do get them even for the recorded version. I do eventually get to them and I will respond back. So please send away. So with that being said, let me introduce our panel with who I see first, and that is Todd.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you very much for the opportunity, Ray. Thank you very much for joining us for this chat here. Today, my quick two cents background here. Started conducting reserve series and reserve visors in 1999. Pertinent to this panel, this discussion here today. Still enjoy visiting a high rise each week. I'm a licensed professional engineer in a several states. Looking forward to discussion. Thank you, Ray.

SPEAKER_01

I do love high rises. I do. I I just think they're so fascinating. They're so complex. Dawn.

SPEAKER_03

Hi, everybody. My name is Dawn Becker Dernan, and I'm with Akashore. We are a retail insurance broker located across the country. And I specialize in community association insurance.

SPEAKER_00

And Andy. Hi everybody, Andy Sitnick. I am the vice president of our high-rise operations in Pennsylvania and Southern New Jersey for First Service Residential. And I've been, and since you love high-rises so much, I've been working with high-rises since 2010. Um, I live in a very wooded area of New Jersey, and I joke to all my neighbors, they wonder why I don't work closer by. And I say, Well, there's just no high-rises in the sticks of uh southern New Jersey. So um happy to answer all your questions related to high rises.

SPEAKER_01

And Andy does know high rises because Andy is at our building with his management company, and I think Andy does a great job, and that's why I'm so happy to have him on the live stream. So thank you. And I used to love sending Andy text messages when I thought he was doing something wrong. I thought that was great too. But anyway, all right. High rise capital project planning and reserve study reality. Now, Andy, you kind of I asked you what topic you thought would be a good one to start off with, and you said this one. How come?

SPEAKER_00

Well, we're all not only is it especially in New Jersey recently, but it's also been a thing in Florida. A lot of states are getting towards the adoption of laws revolving around reserve studies and or making sure that our communities are maintaining their buildings, particularly high-rises after the unfortunate collapse of that surfside building in Phil uh, sorry, Florida. Um, it's always been a challenge in a high-rise because of the sheer magnitude of the equipment and the asset, if you will, even though we don't like to call them assets, but the dollars involved in maintaining a high-rise are significantly larger than any planned community or garden style HOA that's in our industry. Um, from the exterior of the building, the elevator equipment, large pumps, cooling, heating systems, you name it. Um, and then some buildings even have very unique features like automated garages or you know, amenities now that are coming into more of the luxury buildings are just unfathomable to think of. How do we reserve for? Um, and it's the challenge. And and I think the industry is a little behind in how we deal with this in the sense that we're used to using a reserve study.

SPEAKER_01

You're getting so far ahead, Andy. And I will slowly so excited. You're like Dawn with the insurance. You're so excited. You just see how excited he is, Todd. He just loves high rises. So, you know, those are like 90% of my slides that I have here.

SPEAKER_00

All right. Well, it's it's a lot of um, it's always a challenge. It doesn't matter what building, whether they're well funded or not. So um, you know, it it I love talking about it because um we don't know the answers, and I learn something new every time I deal with a client.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, Todd's gonna have all the answers. He pretty much guaranteed it today. He said any answer you need, he's gonna have, you know, Todd, I think the thing with high rises too is that man, if you screw up, there are big screw ups. And I think that's why people should pay attention to what we're gonna talk about because it's a lot of money.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And uh that that's sort of why that increased scrutiny by lending institutions started with high rises, started with the vintage high rises, the larger buildings. That increased scrutiny is probably only going to really accelerate with those types of structures and a lot more on the line with high rises. If you have a structural failure, you have a structural issue with your facade, could jeopardize uh public safety. If you have a swallowing concrete, uh life safety systems within high rises, it's just a different ballgame. It's a different ballgame from town homes.

SPEAKER_01

That's why I want people to pay attention when we're gonna talk about. Andy, Dawn's here because not only is insurance very complicated for high-rises, honestly, Dawn knows a lot about just about everything. I don't know if you knew that about Dawn, Andy, but there's nothing that Dawn doesn't know either. Dawn, I meant there's gonna be plenty for you to talk about too, right? With insurance and reserves.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, especially in a high-rise, the complexity, and as Andy and Todd both pointed out, it is an immense finance. So with insurance, we're transferring risk, and that's the financial risk of loss. So there's a lot that insurance really wants to know about. And we really deal in sometimes the aftermath when reserves are not properly um developed and also when maintenance is not done.

SPEAKER_01

Andy, how come you can't use the word assets anymore? I meant I didn't say you can't use it, but why is that out of favor? Is that do you know?

SPEAKER_00

So I guess it's more of a personal thing. I mean, in theory, the the condo doesn't own anything. Um, you know, you because you can't sell off the building. It it's just not how it works. Versus a cooperative, by the way, is a little different. That there actually is an asset there. Um, from an accounting standpoint, there's nothing on the balance sheet except piles of money versus, like I said, a cut a co-op actually is the value of the building is there. You can actually mortgage a condo, a co-op, sorry. Um, so when we talk about assets, you know, you know, I've had clients say to me, you know, we're you know, get an asset manager, I'm like, well, there's no value really to the insurance, by the way. Don't tell you the insurance puts a value on it, but it doesn't really mean much to us. Um, and sometimes you a community does things that are outside what an asset manager would do, meaning we want to keep it in a more pristine shape and do things more accelerated or make enhancements to it because this is what the people wanted versus it's the bottom dollar, best price, etc.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, okay. You know, Andy knows all the latest lingo, he really does. Because you're just Andy, you're out there talking a lot to the entire community all the time, right? I don't want to get too deep into it, but you do need to know the lingo.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I mean, I I I enjoy getting up in front of large crowds of um, you know, curious homeowners and talking shop, if you will. Um, but yeah, you got to understand you know what's going on now, but also anticipate what's coming in the and just paying attention to the industry. This is why I like doing you know events like yours here. Like I join, you know, other events, I try I try to jump in and meet a lot of people and learn it.

SPEAKER_01

I like your description, curious. We'll just leave it at that. Okay. Curious groups of owners at a meeting. All right. High rise projects are different. I just wanted to set the tone with that. I think we already kind of covered why. I don't think we have to add anything else to that. They are completely different and a lot more complex. Todd, from an engineering aspect, do you agree? High rises are much more complex for the most part than your average HOA.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, absolutely. Just think about access, just to access a location of water infiltration on the 30th floor of a 50-story high rise, just to get to that spot where you need to do the repairs, often more than the actual repair. That chiller is it easy to remove and install a new one, or is it very difficult to remove and install a new one? Access plays such a massive role in these costs and high-rises. And that's not as much of a it's it certainly is an issue at townhomes, but way, way bigger issue in high rises that you need to account for within your reserve study, your capital project planning.

SPEAKER_01

That's why I think like if you're a manager of an HOA or anything, we're not saying you don't have a complex job either. You have your whole different, but I think this may be an interesting webinar for you, also, because you may learn how complex these high rises are and how much those managers have to deal with a lot of different issues. Like today, we're having a problem with our elevators, so that's an issue. You know, it's causing a lot of havoc. You know, it's not anybody's fault, but that's what happens. All right, the reserve study is the starting point. Andy, since you kind of brought this topic up, why do I have that as a slide? Why did any idea? I don't know why.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I can tell you the the the um textbook or the grade school answer is a community is told to get a reserve study, and it's also sometimes referred to as a capital plan. Okay. I tend to disagree because a reserve study is it what I feel is that you're studying the amount of reserves you need at a certain time frame for a certain future point. Everyone gets it because it's sometimes required by lending. Um, insurance and insurance carriers would sometimes ask for it in their underwriting. Any mortgagey, you know, bank that's gonna be mortgaging a unit in a condo tip or a high rise typically ask for a copy of the reserve study. And it's a really more of a 30, even sometimes 40,000-foot view of the of the um of the cost of the amount of money you're gonna need and when things are. Um it's a start point, meaning it should, in my opinion, it shouldn't be the only document you use to guide yourself through the capital projects of your high-rise.

SPEAKER_01

Who would disagree with you? No one. Well, we'll see. Let's see if Todd disagrees.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, no, no, no. Reserve states simply allow you to make an informed decision come budgeting season. Simply allows you to make an informed decision, have a heads up as to what projects are coming down the road, their potential times, their potential costs. Um again, that allowing you to make an informed decision, your come budgeting season, you're trying to figure out what reserve contribution to put away. It puts a little bit of science behind that discussion.

SPEAKER_01

Don, I will make a statement. If you don't have a good reserve study, especially with a high rise, I think it's unethical. I'm not a lawyer, so don't I think you're not doing your fiduciary duty that I'm not an attorney, so that could be true or not true. Chuck, we're your own attorney on that. I think it's terrible. I think a reserve study for a high rise is an absolute obligation, whether the owners want to see it or not, or hear about it. Dawn, do you do a lot of these? I know it's not so much insurance, but do you agree?

SPEAKER_03

I I do. Well, and here's why. So in a high rise, everything's amplified the cost, the risk, the complexity, the consequences. And a lot of our owners don't understand governance, they don't understand why we do things. But more importantly, they will treat oftentimes their condo unit like an apartment, meaning that maintenance is such an essential thing, right? But also cost. So, why it's important for reserve study is to set that balance of what we estimate or anticipate potential future costs to be and what we cannot ensure we reserve for.

SPEAKER_01

You know, Andy, that reminded me, just to for people that may not be familiar, you're very familiar with my building because your company has been managing it for a long time. I remember our pool was out, it wasn't anybody's fault, it was out, and the owners were going on Facebook saying, I want a discount. Like, how do you get a discount? You own the building. Like, who are you getting the discount from? Andy, I don't think people would believe how little people understand when they're an owner how the building works. Like, it drove me nuts. Like, there's no discount.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, I my favorite is the if you have a building where you have first-level apartments, they don't want to pay for the elevator. And it's the same thing.

SPEAKER_01

I never even heard that one. Okay, so let's start with the what what part you should take a look at first. And an audience, this is just my research, it doesn't mean anything. So the panelists are here to set it straight or clarify or things like that. But I like to do it this way, audience, because this, if you try to research this stuff on your own, you're gonna find very similar information that I'm gonna find. So this is why I like to go through it. What has changed since the study? Todd, what am I getting at? I'll just let you run with it from here. Point number one here.

SPEAKER_02

What has changed since the study? So you get a reserve study done. Uh, you're hopefully looking at that at least a couple of times a year, especially during budgeting season. But as years go by, some things have changed. Maybe some projects have been deferred, maybe some projects have accelerated. I believe that's what you're getting at here. And one of the notes here is that uh there are uh a number of some other additional possible changes here. Obviously, some of the costs may be coming a little different. Certain projects, the cost is increasing way more than inflation. Some of the cities that I work in primary primarily construction costs for roofing projects, facade projects, or shortage of labor for people to do those projects, and those costs are way higher. Um, that uh can create a challenge within reserve studies, but those associations who get their reserve studies updated in a timely manner, we can more gradually build in those increased costs for that association. Um, I just want to make one thing clear: just because a project is deferred, just because an association defers a project doesn't mean it falls off the radar screen. Still got to be thinking about that. Of course, we can't get the exact project in the exact year. That's not the point. Nobody can do that. Following the reserve, quote, following the reserve study means following the reserve contributions, not the exact timing of the expenditures. Following those contributions, that's really the key. That's where associations get on a good financial path. How do you have notes on this?

SPEAKER_01

Did you just guess that I was gonna bring this up?

SPEAKER_02

I did not I asked for the notes ahead of time, you wouldn't give them to me.

SPEAKER_01

I know. See what it is. I don't let the panelists have any clue what's coming up. I don't like them to over-research things, I like them to be very natural and comfortable. But engineers in particular love to have all the information ahead of time. Right? Absolutely, that's why they're engineers, they do such a great job. They need to do that. I had down here, Andy, um, prices, building conditions, codes, contractor availability, residence needs, etc. etc. Uh, this is an important one. Do you agree, Andy?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, but I think very importantly is the board changed. Typically, the board the board that got the reserve study done three years ago is not the board now. And every board has a has their goals, if you will, and and their opinions on how things have been done. And typically, it's not exactly the same as boards of the past, and also even every every community also has a different culture for how they want to pay for things, I'd say. In my experience with some of the more luxury high-rises in our portfolio, it's not a the fact that, yeah, oh, they've got the money and you know it's gonna be better, but all oftentimes the you know, they they want you to reserve enough for the 50 to 100,000 hits that come every year, every five years. But when you got to replace elevators, the tune of five million dollars, they just say, Hey, write a check because my money guy's making 10. Why is your condo gonna make three percent on my money? And in order to save the amount of capital, if it it your assessments end up having to be higher. So, a lot of times it really comes down to the community culture, which is led by the board that's been elected.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, so well, let me do this with Dawn, and I want to go back to something you said. I'm gonna totally jump ahead now. Dawn, I'm here. My notes say what has changed with a study, insurance expectations. I don't know if that's does that really belong in there? I mean, that's what popped up with my research. I never saw that in reserve study.

SPEAKER_03

Are is insurance referenced in a reserve study? Is that what you're getting at?

SPEAKER_01

Or prices it says prices, building conditions, codes, contractor availability, insurance expectations. I don't think that belongs in there, does it? For a reserve study?

SPEAKER_03

Not in a reserve study, but the insurance we do care about those items. They're extremely important.

SPEAKER_01

That doesn't belong in there, right, Todd, theoretically. You're not putting in anticipating insurance needs in a reserve study, are you?

SPEAKER_02

Not necessarily, but uh Dawn, feel free to jump in here. We are seeing in certain states where insurance providers are taking far greater interest in looking at reserve studies, looking for deferred maintenance, looking for issues that could bring cause them to be a little wary of that association, even not even writing a policy at times. So that uh that within that reserve study, showing that the association has a solid financial game plan to take on these projects in a timely manner to that minimizes that deferred maintenance, minimizes critical conditions, seems like insurance providers are taking way more interest in that nowadays.

SPEAKER_03

We are, and in fact, there are some insurance providers out there that are partnering with reserve companies to offer discounts if you have certain insurance products with certain carriers. We are also, I'm a CERMS insurance agent, which is a community insurance risk management specialist. And by working with me and a credential manager, we are getting discounts through our DNO program. Why? Because reserve studies are so essential to financial planning, and poor financial planning typically results in claims, as Todd pointed out. We can have insurance claims, particularly against the directors and officers, and that may or may not be covered. I mean, it's really going to be dependent upon a lot of things.

SPEAKER_01

Everybody wants a reserve study now. There's no doubt about it. I mean, you got to have one. You're crazy if you don't. Andy, I'm going to totally jump ahead. Go ahead, John.

SPEAKER_03

My feeling on this is how does a community really know or a kind of really know what to charge their residents? They don't have that game plan established with a reserve study.

SPEAKER_01

Right. I think it's crazy not to have one. The only exception, I don't want to get into it, is if it's a building where billionaires live, then they don't care because they can just write a check at any moment for any amount of money. And I've seen that in Manhattan, but otherwise you got to have a reserve study. Andy, you said something really interesting that I don't think I've ever heard before. You said you have to anticipate cultural changes within the board. So I think this is an interesting question. I'll start with you, Andy, and maybe you don't have an answer. You may not. How does a current board protect themselves when they're making a reserve study for the future actions of later boards who may not keep up with that reserve study? And there may not be a way to do that.

SPEAKER_00

There really isn't a way to hedge against that. I've had many clients try or boards try, uh, you know, because at the end of the day, it most of the actions a board can take can be undone by the next board, unless you somehow amend your documents, and it's diff which is difficult to do in pretty much any state. Um, that maybe somehow you put that in there. But even then, I think an attorney may even argue that you know, don't even bother going there with that. It's really more of an operations thing. A good board utilizes their committees to quote unquote train up board members in the future, teaching them or keep making sure you have those that are of like mind and or like goals can help hedge against that, but it's a challenge. I mean, that's why you know some buildings tend to get a little contentious because you've got you know, either factions or differing opinions that think how things are to be done. And the best thing to do is just everyone should be working out their differences. It's at the end of the day, it's it's not worth it. You've got millions and dollars of real estate to deal with.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I just realized too, let's face it, a lot of people run for election based on the fact that the board is putting too much money away, which they should be doing. So I guess whatever, there's nothing to really that kind of stinks. But all right. Real buildings don't follow spreadsheets. Todd, the the way this popped up was projected useful life, estimated costs, and replacement timelines may not match what is actually happening inside of the building. Have you ever heard this comment before?

SPEAKER_02

I guess first and foremost, let's take discretionary projects like hallway renovation, lobby renovation out of this discussion for just a moment. Of course, you can't get the exact expenditure in the exact year, but it does have to be reasonable. If within your reserve study, if it's us or somebody else, it's not a reasonable cost, not a reasonable time frame, call them out, talk it through, see if it was a different scope of work, see what happened. Have to be reasonable. There's no reason to hire us. But it's not about we we recommend you focus on the next five years. So, the next five years, what projects does that reserve state provider have on your radar screen? Do you like where it's at? Do you think you need to move it up? Maybe you get lucky, move it back. Because the next five years, not a whole lot of time to figure out how to pay for those projects. But the idea is not to go year by year what that reserve state provider has. But be on your radar screen, be thinking about those projects. If we have your roof system three years from now, maybe you're it's not leaking, maybe you can move it out a little bit, but it doesn't get deferred. You're not like you're gonna get 10 more years out of it. Maybe you're like you get two, three, four at the very most. Needs to be on your radar screen because it's a big ticket project. Now's the time to start thinking how you're gonna pay for it.

SPEAKER_01

Dawn, this has nothing to do with insurance. Well, maybe it does, but I like to toss things over to you because I just like to make sure you're paying attention because you're such a good sport about the and the insurance is so important, but it's not always about insurance. Conditions matter more than age.

SPEAKER_03

I a hundred percent. Here's the thing if if you've been keeping up on the maintenance of the building, it shows. I have high rises that we insure that are ancient. I have brand new high rises that we insure. Some of the brand new high-rises look like they're older than the you know the ones that were built in the 60s. So it really depends upon what the board and how the board has maintained the buildings and funded the buildings. And poor maintenance typically leads to an insurance claim. Why? Because someone's gonna trip, slip, or fall. Fire systems, that's a big thing that we don't always see being updated. People aren't really looking to it. They think I've got it inspected, but they don't think about the replacement of those systems, the pumps, etc. Uh, Todd mentioned the chilling systems. I mean, this is a vertical building. There is a lot of complexity to it. The elevators, as discussed before. So if those items are old and not maintained, there's more likely to be an injury or property damage.

SPEAKER_01

Andy Dawn's great at segueing things to insurance. There's absolutely nothing you can't throw at her that she can't find an insurance angle. That's because she's so knowledgeable. I meant we're we're gonna do a whole live stream on that, like a game, Dawn, where we challenge you. Andy, a system may be old, but still functioning. I thought of myself also when this slide popped up, but that's another topic. Do you agree with this or not agree with it?

SPEAKER_00

No, absolutely. I've had buildings that you know, the domestic water pump, the big pump in the basement that puts water into your unit or your apartment. If you do your regular maintenance on these things, it may have a useful life in your reserve study of 10 years. But I've seen pumps that are in great condition go 15. Obviously, you got to anticipate that that could accelerate quicker than usual, but you can absolutely outperform what your reserve study says with proper maintenance. Roof systems are like this as well, uh, ePDM and TPO roof, flat roofs, especially. If you get your regular maintenance done, you can outperform your reserve study. And facades are a little different. I'm sure we'll I can get into more detail on that. There's so many varying types of facades and methodologies behind how to tackle that, that you can probably get the best bang for your buck with proper planning.

SPEAKER_01

So, Todd, a reserve study, does it anticipate the previous maintenance? Does it does it include the previous maintenance of equipment and forecasting?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, a lot of the equipment that was mentioned, domestic cold water pumps, like Annie mentioned, they some it either works or doesn't work sometimes. Might be old, well maintained, get a good useful life out of it. We absolutely have to consider well-maintained equipment, probably gonna be a little bit longer useful life. But what was what wasn't mentioned yet is the other way is true too. Components that are not properly well-maintained, you're missing that preventative maintenance, can often get a diminished useful life. Um, it doesn't always go one every building we go to, building engineer tells us, hey, I do a great job maintaining all this stuff. It's gonna last forever. I do a fantastic job here. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. We have to consider the actual preventative maintenance in that useful life. It plays a big role.

SPEAKER_01

So you're factoring it in, you're asking questions about it, you're looking for maintenance records. Are you doing all those things, Todd, or are you generally don't? Like how far do you it's guys? This is like almost an investigation, right? Is that something that you don't generally do or you do it, or it costs more money? I mean, it seems like this would play a major role, especially like Andy was saying in high rises.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, absolutely. When we walk the that high-rise with that building engineer, we have to understand the preventative maintenance they're conducting. Is the component maintained under a service contract by professional as well? In fact, post-surf side, a change to reserve studies is they now must include the preventative maintenance that's required to maximize the useful life of that component. Now, not the cost, but just in the text somewhere, what do we think you should be doing that component to maximize its useful life? That's a new requirement.

SPEAKER_01

Does anybody ever go around Todd and say they do a crummy job? I mean, what do you what do you expect people to say? Of course, the guy's gonna tell you he's maintaining the equipment, right?

SPEAKER_02

So well, the new building engineer that takes over will tell us that old building engineer did a terrible terrible job. That's when we get that.

SPEAKER_00

I think, and Todd, correct me if I'm wrong, a lot of your challenges, like you know, when there's a piece of equipment with a serial number, you could typically get the age of it, and then it's their keen eyes from the engineering team that can put a condition on it. It gets a little harder when you you're dealing with components like roofs, facades, when we maybe don't know when it was put down, or we don't know when the last bit of maintenance was, and the scope of a typical reserve study when it comes to actual engineering hours on the job can really dictate the quality of the condition assessment. If I'm if I'm getting that right, where I've noticed a lot of our boards, you know, they think that you know Todd sending in four guys with microscopes and spectrometers to figure out the molecular scope of the of the brick and mortar. Well, meanwhile, you got a guy maybe with a drone and says, Yeah, I mean it looks like it was repointed 10 years ago. So that's where you know you really got to partner with your reserve study specialists to understand what you're getting and relay that expectation back to the board.

SPEAKER_02

That's what I was kind of getting at too. But you're gonna get what you paid for. Give me a condition Trump's age. As you had a slide, you have it actually up there right now, conditioned Trump's age. So if we go up to a modified biteman roof system, uh might be brand new, board manager tells us brand new, but we see a ton of uh seal at deterioration of the perimeter and it penetrations, and we see areas of that with uh membrane bulge, uh on the perimeter poor terminations. That's all going to play into where we place the project on your radar screen. Condition is far more important than age. Unfortunately, there are times where we visit properties where managers knew, building engineers knew, we don't get that history. Um, that's unfortunate. We need to piece that together the best we can through our non-invasive visual inspection. If we see conditions that warrant invasive testing, like core sampling of a roof, for example, I will recommend that. But a reserve city is not invasive in visual nature. A lot of talented reserve city providers out there that from that non-invasive visual inspection, they can get a good feel for the remaining useful life, regardless of what we're told the age is.

SPEAKER_01

You know, Andy, I think, do you think it's possible that that commentary about you get what you paid for? I mean, that's what I said, but basically it was off what you were talking about. You either pay a guy who just puts a drone up and just guesses, or compared to you, hire a company that's really going to dive deep. I didn't even know about the serial numbers, so thanks for sharing that. I think if you're gonna get something out of this webinar today and you're involved at a high-rise, that may be it, right? You want to investigate these issues. Or do you agree?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and a typical reserve study specialist is gonna offer you options of or levels, as they call them, typically one, two, and three will be being level one being the you know, we're gonna spend the the they're gonna spend more time on your site investigating and and giving you a more thorough, but you pay for that because it's gonna be engineering hours either both on the ground at your building or back at the lab, you know, analyzing photos, doing the research and putting the spreadsheets together. So um I I rarely recommend that a a high-rise just quote unquote update their spreadsheet in a reserve study because condition matters more than age. What happened three years, you know, three years is a long time in a high-rise. And um, yeah, it that absolutely.

SPEAKER_01

So I wouldn't say like typical company, I would say like quality company. Quality. Go ahead, Dawn.

SPEAKER_03

I just want to add, you know, insurance does care about age though, especially in the southeast. We really do have insurance carers that no matter how wonderful and great the building looks, unless it's completely a gut rehab, which is I don't know if I've ever really come across it except in New York City, they're not going to consider it after a certain age point. And it's actually pretty young. And in the Southeast, we're seeing some of that age being 1985 and even up to 2006. Pretty scary, but think about that from a standpoint of there are you know larger claims with a vertical building. And so the insurance carriers are wary about that.

SPEAKER_01

You know, Dawn, Todd and Andy were making me feel good about my age, and then you just came on and just totally shot it back down again. I'm just letting you know you had to say it, but I'm just telling you. I meant all right, but basically, you know, okay. Um, let me take a quick two-second break to regroup up here. Really, really quick, guys. Lightning round. Unnecessary item you would bring with you to a deserted island. Todd. Can I go last?

SPEAKER_02

No, unnecessary item I'd bring with me to a deserted.

SPEAKER_01

All right, I should never go to the engineers first. Andy. Sunglasses. Dawn.

SPEAKER_03

I'd bring a hairbrush.

SPEAKER_01

I'd bring my iPhone. It's so pathetic. So pathetic. All right, Todd, we we don't blame you. Engineers like to really think things out. You'd have to make a report, you'd have to get your stamp out. I understand. Did you come up with an answer at this point?

SPEAKER_02

Uh still haven't come up with an answer.

SPEAKER_01

No, all right. Note to myself, don't go to God first on the quick questions. All right, here we go. Elevators can drive the timeline. Andy, we're having our elevators are 40 years old just today, right now. They're not working well. It's not the building's fault, it's not management's fault. They're old. Why weren't the money put aside? Why didn't they replace them? 20 years ago, why didn't put the money? They weren't gonna last forever. Somebody knew tell me, Andy, why? Why?

SPEAKER_00

I don't know, you know, and to put it in perspective, I believe you have Westinghouse elevators, um, a name from the past. Um, it's look, elevator equip I I had a building once that felt their amenity was they had an old elevator with the crank um with the arm. And they thought that was actually an amenity of the building, and they refused to upgrade it and get rid of the elevator operator. So you that old equipment, believe it or not, you're getting 40 years out of it. I you're not getting that from any newer equipment, but we I could tell you they're they they recognize the age of the elevators. It's elevators are very complex, and by the way, you never really replace an elevator, which is why we call them modernizations. Um, you you pretty much do you can do everything but the car frame, the rails in there, and you know, you there's all kinds of you don't really do the whole thing, but elevators are going to be very expensive. The higher you're building, the more elevators, the type of elevator it'd be you know, whether it's a shaft driver, uh tension or piston. Um they're complicated. And by the way, they're the most one of the most important pieces of a high-rise. That's how you get from your apartment to the lobby. It's uh, and if I believe, I remember one of the big four elevator companies said to me, it's the most used form of transportation in the world. The elevator.

SPEAKER_01

It's like a 20-minute wait for elevators today. But like, who do you blame? Nobody. By the way, Andy, I completely disagree with you. I know what building you're talking about because you told me about it. I love the idea that that guy sits there with the old thing, and I would agree with the owners. That's an amenity, I would not lose it. I would keep whatever that guy is with the thing in the bar. I would never change that elevator, no matter how much it costs. I would keep it forever. But that's just my opinion. But I don't have to manage the building either. Okay, Todd, elevators, elevators, elevators, they're so underestimated, I think, aren't they?

SPEAKER_02

Yes, but you're you reserve a high rate, a reserve state for a high rise might be 100 line items, but there's only a handful, 10 or less sometimes that control the funding. An elevator control system modernization is certainly one of those, especially for traction elevators. The taller buildings will have traction type elevators. Um, that this is a little bit we can really be at this kind of all day, but I'll make this fast. Those old school mechanical relay controls can last a long time. As long as you have a guy who knows what he's doing, knows how to fix them, you can find replacement parts. They can last way longer than the new programmable logic controls. But these new programmable logic controls, the issues lack of replacement parts, obsolescence, uh, priority parts. Um it can be quite challenging. And the challenge here is you want to get to the elevator systems, really have a plan in place before you start having major service interruptions. Uh, before you start um having extended service interruptions, obviously a major issue for elevators. One real quick note on elevators, just because an interesting story we're talking about preventive maintenance. We had an elevator contractor, very large one, come in and teach us hey, what should we look for when we're analyzing elevator? First thing they said, is the room clean? Is the control room clean? How clean do they keep the room? Because that has such a major impact on these control systems, which I found that pretty interesting, pretty basic, but super important.

SPEAKER_01

Dawn, I'm so angry about the elevators. This is a perfect example of reserves. You know who I'm angry at? People like 40 years ago that didn't do reserves for these elevators, because the elevators aren't going to last forever. They're 40 years old. They can't get parts from anymore. I just feel like this is so unfair that I have to deal with this, and I'm gonna have to pay to have the elevators probably upgraded with an assessment or something. Do you feel sorry for me?

SPEAKER_03

I do, but I I do, of course. I think a lot of people underestimate the convenience of the elevator. I lived in a high-rise in Jersey City for a long time. And for my exercise, I used to run up and down the stairs, and the elevator would go out, so I would have to run up and down the stairs. But you know, it's a it can be very dangerous, though, on the other hand. And from an insurance standpoint, there's injuries that can occur. There's obviously the complaints that someone might threaten to sue or actually do sue. And then, of course, there's noise, there's the construction, the contractual transfer. And uh Todd brought up what about when parts aren't available? What if there's an insurance claim? There's so much that goes into it.

SPEAKER_01

I could definitely see a liability issue. Like right now, we're down to one elevator. If that elevator goes out, I'm on the 29th floor and there's a medical emergency, somebody can't get the help they need. Once again, you can't really blame anybody that's around now, but it's just a shame that we're in this position. Okay, Andy, you were so excited about this. I know I think that you have a love and hate relationship with facades.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

What what do you think? They're they're a big item, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, they're not only is it the biggest aesthetic of a building, it's the look, but they vary. Um, especially the older facades have these intricate terracotta pieces, they're very ornate, they've got these metal uh workings in there. Um, there's they're brick. Sometimes they have large cast stone or or like slate stone or granite. I'm sorry, not slate, limestone sometimes, and then you got more modern like glass systems, or my my most hated, which is called EFS or EFIS. It's basically a styrofoam with plaster over it. Um, but they're all different, and the approach to a facade is can primarily be driven by the board or the building's ability to stomach a capital, large capital expenditure and timing or phasing of a project. Access, I think I believe Todd mentioned early on in this uh episode here, is access sometimes drives what you do to a facade. More complicated high-rises have you have to have what's called mast climbers, which are elevators erected versus just hanging from a swing. They're all over the place, and a reserve study may or may not target it exactly. They're gonna kind of spread that out because you never replace a facade, you actually just repair it over time, and you can do it in phases, or you could do it all at once, and that has to be decided. That's where capital planning comes in versus reserve study, and I may have jumped ahead there.

SPEAKER_01

I'm so glad Andy said that, Todd, because that's what I was gonna say. Like our facade here, we have a major repair project for like three years. Andy, can you share what or you can't how much it was total, or well, those that was balconies?

SPEAKER_00

Um yeah, those are balconies.

SPEAKER_01

Our facades have been messed up too.

SPEAKER_00

We've had the caulking balconies are I uh sometimes call consider if you look at a reserve stay, they're typically going to put the balconies with the exterior components of facade because oftentimes they jive, they're part of the wall.

SPEAKER_01

They're next.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, then we'll keep we want to keep the balconies out.

SPEAKER_01

The reason I got excited what Andy said though, Todd, was they didn't do a good job clocking the windows here. Like at some point, somebody messed it up. I don't, I don't know when. And it leaked like crazy. Now, is that part of reserves plan to have the finances in place, Todd, to get a project like that done properly? Because it made a huge difference here. And I think somebody had to come out and replace the clocking. Facades are tricky, and I think, like Andy's saying, you have to pay like so much attention to them and have a real plan.

SPEAKER_02

As Andy mentioned, access is such a huge part of this entire facade discussion. If you're on the building, however you're on that building, address everything you can from whatever the facade system is, repairs to that, the sealants, the caulker out windows, if it's balconies, as long as you have that contractor on the building, part of that project should be everything that you can possibly address. It all works together too. If your sealants are not in great shape, that's going to damage your facade. So it all is integral together. In fact, my my favorite part of this job is visiting vintage high-rises, the mate vintage masonry high rises. I love the architecture, just beautiful workmanship. But I know there's a problem. There's always something to do, and it's always really expensive. I feel like Andy hates those places.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I do. Like he doesn't like the elevator guy. I could sense like you find the facade. I know like it's because it's your job and it's you know, people don't want to pay for it and they complain, and then you have to try to fix things. What I feel like you don't like the architecture, Andy. You didn't like the the the elevator, you just want everything to be plain and simple because you're you're in the management business.

SPEAKER_00

I'm intrigued by the older facades uh of older buildings. That one of the challenges we run into is when they're historically designated, because oftentimes there are newer materials out there that can be a lot cheaper, not only to put them in, but and or just by a unit cost of buying the material. But if your building's historically registered, you may have to replace it with the exact same stuff that they built it with in the 19 early 1900s. Um, it depends on, I guess, the historic commission. In Philadelphia, they're a little more lax about it when it's 20 stories up versus if it's like five at visual level. For instance, I had a building that had terracotta balconets, they called them, and they were, I believe, some kind of limestone. And you know, we were able to get historic approval to change it to a cast concrete. They laser scanned the original frame and they rebuilt them with concrete rather than chiseling them out of some quarry in northern uh New York State, and it saves, I think it saved like half a million dollars in material alone. But no, I I don't hate the facades, they're very finicky, and um, you got to plan accordingly, as we were saying.

SPEAKER_01

Why couldn't your staff chisel them? You don't do that?

SPEAKER_00

I think it's that other job descriptions, okay.

SPEAKER_01

Um Dawn, I could see this being I could see if you're not careful with your insurance, under insuring this stuff for sure, right? Because you unless somebody comes out there and takes a look at it and asks, I didn't realize it, but can you run with that?

SPEAKER_03

Well, here's the thing injuries, right? So the facade is deteriorating, and in New York City, we have laws with scaffolding and the erection of that. And then there's also the aspect of the injuries that occur and what damages can be paid and who's at fault. Mostly what I'm always concerned in these situations is number one, what is the exterior? Because um, EFIS or the exterior insulation finishing system, people will argue with me. Well, it's not that type of EFIS, it's this, it's not an EFIS. In our insurance industry, any type of application to the external surface of the building is going to be an EFIS. And majority of our insurance carriers are not going to want to insure it, even if it's decorative, and that's what we see at a lot of the high-rise is more of the decorative ethos because there's water intrusion issues. So water intrusion, typically not covered, and then it starts to deteriorate the building. And that's where we see the issues with, for example, what happened with surfside. You start to see that with the columns, and or it can result in unfortunately, uh, where you could have a collapse, and collapse is not covered by insurance. The facade really kind of leads to the inside of the building and the overall health.

SPEAKER_01

You know what? I was thinking, no, like you went right to where you should. Something's gonna fall on somebody, right? I was thinking when Andy was talking about, because I never thought about this, under insuring, because there's a historical aspect and you can't replace it. Like if somebody doesn't tell you, hold on, Don, if somebody doesn't tell you that, how would you know? And then you're only going to insure for certain value and you're gonna be stuck, right? To replace something with like product or Or maybe like Andy's saying, these architectural things are trickier than they look. I guess people have to be careful who they use for insurance for that, right?

SPEAKER_03

Yes, they do. And a lot of our insurance carriers actually will not take on, just like EFIS, they will not take on historic designated buildings. There are only a very limited specialized group. And why? The ordinance, for example, the code upgrades that need to be done in a historic building there after an insurance loss. There's also the aspect from a historic preservation, as you pointed out, those items that are not there available. So we can't do a true replacement cost. Maybe we're going to look at an agreed value or assumptions other than. So it can be very costly, much more greater than, as both pointed out, than what materials are that could be substituted but are not allowed because of the historic nature.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. So Andy, we know that you're getting rid of the old guy that does the elevator thing with the lever. We know that you don't like the limestone, the limestone, or whatever that thing was, that's so complicated where people have to chisel it by hand, like in the pyramids. How about balconies? Do you not want to get rid of balconies too to simplify your life?

SPEAKER_00

I want to make balcony maintenance great again. Uh, how about that kind of a joke? Now, if you do your balcony maintenance thing and get a good proper maintenance on, they they last longer. The challenge with balconies is that they're exclusive, usually they're exclusive to an apartment, like you have your balcony, and different activities happen on different balconies based on who the person is. Um, and also the location of your building, like you're if you're on the ocean, um, especially on the east coast, you're getting salt water on to a concrete balcony that's likely supported with metal rebar and metal supports, and all of that needs to be maintained properly because that water gets in the balcony, it rusts the and that's actually a support more than yeah. I know Dawn and her insurance people would be worried about pieces of facade falling. I don't certainly don't want a balcony collapsing, which has happened.

SPEAKER_01

So, Todd Andy said it was like he made a joke make balcony maintenance great again. When he first said it, I actually didn't think it was a joke, Andy. Like, I it's true, right? I mean, people are ignoring people don't understand. Todd, at my building, I know I keep going, but people don't have the slightest clue about these balconies, and it's probably so frustrating for the management to have to explain that to people. Todd, people don't understand. These are super complex. I don't know, you could take it from there. They're expensive.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, absolutely. A lot of the similar discussions, the facade is when you talk balconies of high rise in my head. I'm picturing a concrete balcony extension of the floor slab. So the some of the same concepts apply. The idea is to get to the small issues before they become big issues, get those small cracks before they come big cracks, get to those issues, uh, those minor issues before they result in spalling of that concrete, which is a safety hazard to the public, where we have seen buildings have to wreck scaffolding and sidewalk protection because of that lack of deferred maintenance. So, same thing with facades, get to the minor stuff on balconies in a timely manner, get to that preventative maintenance before you have a major issue, and now the cost to repair it goes way up.

SPEAKER_01

Todd, did we skip you on facades? No, no, we're good. We're good. No, but did we skip you originally? Because and Andy, uh, Andy and Don and I would get so excited. If we wouldn't have an engineer, we could just like we completely skip going to facades on you. Sorry about that. You're the guy that would know the most about them. We're okay.

SPEAKER_02

We're okay.

SPEAKER_03

I do want to add in on balconies. I've actually seen more balcony claims than not, meaning from a governance standpoint, didn't fix it because it's a limited common element. Most people aren't inspecting it all the time, and owners do a lot of things on their balconies, also, not just this uh, you know, the water and the salt. So balconies tend to be a big argument.

SPEAKER_01

So much about balconies since I've lived here. Like, I don't even don't put like the fencing on it because the wind catches it, it makes the railings loose. Don't put planters on there that collect water. Uh, whatever. I wish everyone would just listen to Andy, and then everything would be so much better around here, and our balconies would last longer. All right, Todd, can you get us through this one fast? Because it's like so obvious, and I want to make sure we get to the other ones, roofs.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, roofing systems on a high-rise uh structure. So the game that's played here is to replace that roofing system before you damage the components beneath the membrane. So, for example, before that insulation is saturated and not usable, maybe you can overlay that roof. If you get to the project in a timely manner, maybe you can overlay that membrane depending on what type of roof you have and the material. But if you wait too long, too many leaks, that insulation is not reusable again. Uh, you can't do that, and the cost is going to be much higher. So replace that roof system just as you're starting to have some serious problems. And this Andy noted flat membrane roof systems, modified bitum, EPM, thermoplastic, they're one of the components where well-maintained roofing systems, great preventative maintenance, can extend that useful life a decent amount, a respectable amount. So stay up with your preventative maintenance on flat roofs. You know what I learned here, Andy? I thought it was great.

SPEAKER_01

I guess they check our roof every day.

SPEAKER_00

Well, there's mechanical equipment up there, but a develop famous developer that I'm aware I'm familiar with. This will tell you everything you need about roofs. When he bought into the one of the buildings he developed, he bought the floor under the one on that's under the roof. So the second to tallest roof or unit. One of the challenges, you know, I live in a single family home. If I have a roof leak, I call a roofer, he fixes it. In a high-rise, the roof's common, and a lot of times that roof leak may start 100 feet away, or depending on the size of the building, 50 feet away. You don't know where it is, it's trial and error. That those owners on the on the top floor could be going through hell to determine where a leak's coming from. They may not even see it until it's too late. And then often the challenge comes when that has to be replaced. They also bear the brunt of the pain of the construction. The other thing we talk about roofs, but a lot of times in a high-rise, it's what's importantly is how is it draining water? Because it's collecting, it's a giant swimming pool. And if you've been on a large high-rise roof, you'll see they've got floor drains that are the size of like sometimes six to eight inches large. And we you to go the reason, like you mentioned they go up there every day. Is one, especially if you live near the ocean, sometimes seagulls bring up chicken bones. There's stuff blown around. You got to keep those drains clear because otherwise you will end up with a swimming pool if your drains aren't clear.

SPEAKER_01

Seagulls bring up chicken bones. You're only talking about Atlantic City boardwalk seagulls. Most seagulls don't eat chickens, Andy. They eat fish.

SPEAKER_00

No, I I will send I'll find this picture from 2011. I have of a corner of a roof. There must have been 150 bones, the chicken bones. But the birds would bring this is in Philadelphia, they're right on the river, uh, Delaware River. The the seagulls bring up, they eat and they leave it, and eventually the weather brought into the corner of the building.

SPEAKER_01

I'm so guilty of myself of getting us off track. All right, let's move quickly. So I'm gonna make a statement because there's a couple key points I want you guys to get to. Really quick, just tell me if it's true or false, Todd. Parking structures. There's a lot of hidden things you're not gonna know. And if you don't get an expert in there to check things out, you're gonna have big problems. You could have a collapse, you're gonna get sued, people are gonna get hurt. Don't mess around with your parking structures. They're not as problems, they're not as obvious as they seem.

SPEAKER_02

Well, what what a fantastic topic, especially in uh cities where they use de-icing chemicals during the wintertime. So the even a little bit of de-icing chemical reaching that reinforcing steel within a concrete parking structure, that's a process you can't reverse. Might look good at for a long time on the on the top surface, the underside, but even little cracks or long de-icing chemicals reach out reinforcing steel will result in spalling of the concrete and massive repair projects. It is really tough, especially new high rises, to convince boards of the need to maintain that top surface that might be a traffic-bearing membrane on that top surface to prevent that water filtration because things could look good for a long time and then all of a sudden they really accelerate into big dollar projects.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, we're gonna move fast. You ready for this one? Plumbing projects disrupt everyone. Andy, can you keep it short and just press people to pay attention to their plumbing? Because it's more than just fixing it. If you can't use your toilet, it's a problem.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, depending on the building and how well it was either planned out or plumbed. If someone has a leak that needs to be addressed, you often have to shut the whole building down or a significant portion to make that repair because you can't repair a pipe that's full of flowing water. Smarter buildings put in shutoff valves strategically when they can, but yeah, plumbing disrupts everyone. And what's even worse than water is when it's sewage and aging buildings, sewer pipes, and even the water supply pipes are now 50, 60 years old. No one put in the reserve study, by the way, to replace all the internal pipe systems, and you typically end up doing that as needed. But I've seen buildings where you could put your finger through the sewage vertical pipe because it's been so eroded over the years.

SPEAKER_01

Andy, I have a question for you. How come every time I get an email that the plumbing's gonna be done, I have to go to the bathroom immediately? Well, because you probably have to go and call that email, then I really have to use the restroom and I can't use it. Why does that happen?

SPEAKER_00

You can still use it. There's probably enough residual pressure to one time. Yeah, just the one time, you know. Or just don't flush and just spray some air fresh. I don't know what to tell you.

SPEAKER_01

We got to move fast. Fire and life safety. You touched upon it already. Can you please push the point?

SPEAKER_03

There's really limited egress, which means it's difficult to exit. So life safety and the components, the fire sprinkler system, where it's located, is it common areas? Is it just the units? In a lot of our older buildings, we will tend to see only the first floor, the lobby area, common areas, um, trash chutes sometimes only that are sprinklered. Our carriers want to see a full life uh sprinkler system. They want to know about the standpipes, they want to know about the maintenance of them. This is critical. And if you're not getting the annual inspections, that's a problem. And it's not just the inside, it's the exterior, it's the connections so that the fire department can arrive. And a lot of times those are overlooked.

SPEAKER_01

All right, we got two minutes, so we'll try to go quick. Todd, inflation not only is part of like how much your bread costs, you better pay attention to it for your reserve study. Is that true?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, not just inflation, supply chain issues, the pandemic-related pricing that we went through, uh, labor shortages, uh, just overall contractor shortages as well. Uh, all of that plays a role in these costs uh going uh up more than just inflation.

SPEAKER_01

All right, Andy, please push these through quickly. And I think they're so important, which is kind of unfair to you. Residents need early communication. How important is that?

SPEAKER_00

It's actually makes or breaks a good board and or management team on a building because um there's there should never be an emergency special assessments are easily explained because it's usually coupled with a disaster, unfortunately. A lot of times in Dawn's world, the insurance may or may not pay out enough and we got to get something repaired, so we need a little bit more money from you. But when you need to repair the elevators, we need to talk about it now if we're gonna do it in three years. So everybody's prepared and they understand. And we're gonna talk about it every month for three years until we actually have to ask you for money for the elevator. It just makes it a lot smoother of a softer of a landing.

SPEAKER_01

Plus, people will come in for free if you're listening. Todd most likely will come in for free and talk about it. Andy will come in for free and talk about it. Dawn will come in for free. You have professionals that will come and set the story ahead of time.

SPEAKER_02

Don't wait until the last minute. Even a little bit of de-icing chemical reaching that reinforcing steel within a concrete parking structure. That's a process you can't reverse. Might look good for a long time on the on the top surface, the underside, but even little cracks or long de-icing chemicals reach our reinforcing steel will result in spalling of the concrete and massive repair projects. It is really tough, especially new high-rises, to convince boards of the need to maintain that top surface that might be a traffic-bearing membrane on that top surface to prevent that water filtration because things could look good for a long time and then all of a sudden they really accelerate into big dollar projects.

SPEAKER_01

Plan cost before the panic starts, plan before the special assessment. Aging buildings require more planning. All right, take us out. We got about, well, we're a little bit over time, but Todd, closing thoughts.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, closing thoughts real fast to high-rise systems, maintaining a high-rise building. Maintaining the investment of the owners at a high-rise building is far more complicated than maintaining the investment of the owners of some of these smaller townhomes or HOAs. Much bigger job. Dawn.

SPEAKER_03

Essentially, capital projects aren't construction decisions, they're governance, financial, and liability decisions. But my opinion is that the biggest exposure doesn't come from the project itself. It actually comes on how the project's financed, as we said before, communicated. And what we didn't get to is how it's contracted. But communication is a biggest part of that.

SPEAKER_01

Andy, take us out. Great topic. Thank you so much for suggesting it.

SPEAKER_00

It's not just the treasurer's job, the plan. Every board member should be actively thinking about the next large project. And every resident should be asking questions about that so that they're all informed as to what's going on, because even the board members are residents and will pay if there's a special assessment.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you so much for being here, and thank you for letting me rush you. I appreciate it so much. And uh, I hope to see everybody soon. And thanks everybody for watching. Bye, everybody. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you.