Legal, Insurance, Finance & Construction Risks Facing Associations

HOA & condo boards are being hit from every direction right now: changing laws, rising insurance scrutiny, reserve pressure, construction problems, financing concerns, deferred maintenance, owner disputes, and new questions about how federal housing enforcement may affect emotional support animal accommodation claims.

YouTube: https://youtu.be/GP3Kj_ynKMo

On-Demand, One Hour, One CEU — Available July 21 only, 5:00 AM – 9:00 PM.

HOA & Condo Hot Topics: Legal, Insurance, Finance, and Construction Risks Boards Can’t Ignore

This practical panel discussion was recorded on June 25 and brings together legal, insurance, reserve, engineering, and community association professionals to talk about the issues boards and managers are dealing with right now.

We’ll cover:

• Legal trends that may increase association risk
• Insurance challenges involving coverage, claims, deductibles, building condition, contracts, audits, and cyber coverage
• Reserve studies, financing, special assessments, deferred maintenance, and property values
• Construction problems that can quickly become legal, insurance, and financial problems
• HUD’s recent enforcement memo involving emotional support animal accommodation claims
• Why one unresolved issue can become a much larger association crisis

Panelists:

Elliot M. Engstrom, Esq.
Sellers, Ayers, Dortch & Lyons, P.A.
[eengstrom@sellersayers.com]
[www.sellersayers.com]

Dawn Becker-Durnin, CIRMS
Acrisure
[dbecker-durnin@acrisure.com]
[www.acrisure.com]

Deborah Gerelli, CIRMS
Gerelli Insurance Agency, Inc.
[deborah@gerelli-insurance.com]
[www.gerelli-insurance.com]

Michelle Baldry, PE, PRA, RS
Reserve Advisors, Inc.
[mbaldry@reserveadvisors.com]
[www.reserveadvisors.com

John LaGumina, Esq.
The LaGumina Law Firm, PLLC
[jlagumina@laguminalaw.com]
[www.laguminalaw.com]

Raymond Dickey
AssociationHelpNow.com
[ray@brainerdcommunications.com]
[www.AssociationHelpNow.com]

If you serve on a board, manage associations, advise community associations, or work with HOAs, condos, or co-ops, this is the kind of conversation that helps connect the dots before a small problem becomes a large one.

This content does not constitute professional advice. Boards and managers should consult their own attorney, insurance professional, engineer, reserve specialist, accountant, and other qualified professionals before making decisions.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:01

Ray Dickey from Association Help Now, CI South Carolina, CI Hudson Valley. Thank you so much for being here today. I didn't really promote this too heavily today because I wanted to do it somewhat as a pre-record, but I appreciate everyone in the audience that is out there. Let me just find everybody. There we go. Thank you so much for being here. I'm going to try some new technology today. So if there's some glitches, just bear with me. I would appreciate it. I am going to send a chat message to everyone also. You don't need to use this form if you don't want to. If you want to help me out, a couple people, if you could just use it today, it's a CI form I'm trying to use, a CEU form I'm trying to use for the future. So if you could just kind of use it as we go along today a couple times, maybe three times at different times, I would appreciate it because I'd like to see how the data works out. But you don't have to if you don't want to. I all know that you're here for CEUs. Uh if you're here to add questions, comments, we love them. We want to hear them, especially today, because it's pretty much wide open what we're going to talk about. I have a backup, of course, but we'd love to hear from the audience and absolutely love to go in that direction. If you need CEUs, everyone has a question feature or a chat feature, but use the question feature. Just type in CEUs. That lets me know that you need CEUs for today. And if you'll play around with that forum today, too, I would also appreciate that. So with that being said, I'm going to try something here and let's see how it works out. Can you guys hear that? Yes. Yes? Okay. Deb, can you can't hear it, right? Still can't hear it. Can anybody in the audience hear it? Could you let me know because I want to know if my sound effects are working for the future. Don, could you hear it? I thought I would start off with our panel. Oh, I'm so inspired now. Our panel is the best in the business. These group of superhero industry leaders are here to help you solve your association problems. I love the music. All right, I know that was kind of silly. All right, let's start off with um Deb introducing herself.

SPEAKER_02 2:16

Good morning, everyone. Deborah Jarelli. I'm with Jarelli Insurance Agency. I'm the vice president. Um we're located in Cold Spring, New York. I have my CERMS designation from CAI National, and I'm happy to be here.

SPEAKER_05 2:30

All right, John. John Laguna from the Lagumina Law Firm. We're in Purchase, New York, just outside of New York City. Uh we represent condominiums, co-ops, and homeowner associations from New York City throughout the Hudson Valley areas. Elliot.

SPEAKER_04 2:46

Hi, I'm Elliot Ingstrom. I'm an attorney at Sellers Airs Gorgia Lions. We're located in Charlotte, North Carolina, and we represent community associations throughout North and South Carolina.

SPEAKER_03 2:56

Don, I feel like you didn't like my sound effects for some reason. You didn't seem that excited about it. Okay. All right. I thought you'd be more excited about it. All right. Well, go ahead and introduce yourself, please.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

My name is Don Becker Dernan. I'm the practice leader for Aquashore's East Division on community associations, and we provide insurance all the way from employee benefits to property and casualty for buildings. Um, I am also a CERMS, just like Deb, and spent a lot of time trying to figure out this world we're in and how insurance will best respond.

SPEAKER_03 3:31

You know, Michelle, I thought you'd like the sound effects. And so do the audience would also like to thank you very much. So much appreciated. All right, Michelle, why don't you go ahead and um oh sorry. Why not see everybody? Michelle was really enthusiastic. I felt like the rest of you were maybe not so much. All right, Michelle, please go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

I like the sound effects. They made me smile. And when you add clapping and applause, now I really like the sound effects. So if we can just keep those going, that'd be great. Every time we have a response, maybe even for questions, we can just start applauding. Um, my name is Michelle. I'm with Reserve Advisors. Uh, we're a national firm that prepares reserve studies. I have CAI's reserve specialist designation, and also I'm a professional engineer. Thank you everyone for being here today.

SPEAKER_03 4:17

Yeah, and if I seem a little bit off today, it's because I have a whole new system that I'm trying to learn here. And I'm actually playing around the sound effects because it's going to tie into better audio for us in the future. So that's just a lot of technology stuff going on here today. All right, so I received an email from someone. This is a question. I'd like to start off with get it out of the way. A homeowner received a violation. The board corrected the issue, but a new board is now in place. The new board is insisting they can reopen that same violation. I guess they didn't like uh the old board's uh decision. Nothing has changed on the homeowner's end. The homeowner has complied with everything requested, but as manager, I feel that this is harassment. All right, John, what do you think?

SPEAKER_05 5:12

I mean, the the most important thing is is to apply the rules uniformly and consistently. If the new board feels that wasn't done, they have the right to rescind the violation.

SPEAKER_03 5:27

Really? Uh Elliot, that sounds uh not fair to me, but what's the legality of it?

SPEAKER_04 5:35

I agree with what John said. I agree that the board's ultimate job is to fairly apply the governing documents. And I think in doing that, the board needs to be cognizant of the fact that you know, something that I hear a lot is new board members saying, Well, I wasn't on the board, so I didn't do that. But the board is the board, so the board does still need to take into account that um it is you know, it's not like new board, new carte blanche. The board is still responsible for what it has done in the past, even if it was a different group of individuals. But John is right that the board, whoever it is right now, needs to fairly apply the governing documents today.

SPEAKER_03 6:14

Deb, you were smiling. I I maybe you don't like it either. It makes me nervous though, because it seems awfully unfair. Somebody kind of gets it okay on something, or or you know, they're they they they make a negotiation with the old board, they do it in good faith, um, and then the new board comes and says, Oh, too bad, time to start over.

SPEAKER_02 6:36

Well, yeah, actually, we see this all the time. This is kind of why we have um boards being ousted in a sense, right? People weren't happy with the decisions or how things were being handled. Um, so we we see it all the time. Um, I was just smiling because again, I think this is on a daily basis around here. So you're as long as you're applying it uniformly, like John said, that's what we're always uh preaching to everybody.

SPEAKER_03 7:05

Dawn, I am surprised you were not, obviously, that this happens all the time.

SPEAKER_00 7:11

It does. And that's why the directors and officers liability insurance is something that we underwrite very specifically because the carriers want to know a lot about what's going on. And there has been a resurgence for some reason the last couple of months. We're seeing a lot of people saying, I don't like that board's decision. We're gonna go back, and we're getting requests for documents and signatures. It's a, you know, they're all looking for that I've got you moment. And we're also seeing a lot of cases where they're looking to sue board members, and it just gets into a tricky situation, especially for insurance.

SPEAKER_03 7:47

Michelle, not part of reserves or engineering, but do you like it? I don't like it.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

I don't love it, but these are the experts on the call. I defer to them. It was this is informative for me too.

SPEAKER_03 8:01

I I I'm not questioning that they're right legally. I'm just saying that I don't like it. It doesn't sound fair, but it's legal. So not everything has to be fair. And I guess, Elliot, what you're saying is if it I assume that you're implying that it should be something serious. Um, I guess you would kind of say, look, if the board could just let it go, maybe let it go. No reason to aggravate somebody for no reason. But if it's a serious matter and the board really didn't like it, they then maybe go back on it.

SPEAKER_04 8:29

I guess my thought process there is if if the new group of people is doing something different than the old group of people and it's still the board, the board is changing its position. So you would want to have a basis for the board changing its position if it's gonna do that.

SPEAKER_03 8:45

Okay. Any additional commentary on this? All right. So we are gonna bounce around today with a bunch of different topics. I I have some stuff that I brought up, but I'm gonna let the panel bring up whatever they want to bring up. But first, I wanted to do one that was legal risk when good attentions are not good enough. And John, I was thinking about rule enforcement, selective treatment, fair housing, records, meetings, contracts, owner disputes. I'm talking about when a board what how much of a role does a good attention play, even if the board's dead wrong on something legally?

SPEAKER_05 9:22

Yeah, I mean, I'll I'll I'll give you a um kind of an easy example. So if you if your billing program sends out notices to someone that filed for bankruptcy, and and it it's just like an automatic process, and you're just saying, hey, here's your bill, um and you and you didn't mean to violate the bankruptcy stay and it was in inadvertent, the court would find that that doesn't matter. It's called strict liability. And um that's that's a really good example that I've seen plenty of condominiums run into. Um and and you will, if you have an at uh an attorney real will willing to push it, you will get penalized for sending out an inadvertent bill.

SPEAKER_03 10:12

So, Elliot, I'm a board member, I'm a manager, I make a big mistake, but my intentions were good. Is that gonna help me through the legal process or does that mean nothing?

SPEAKER_04 10:25

I think John's point was really good because I think it depends on the kind of the mistake. There are some mistakes where it doesn't matter. Like if you violate a stay, absolutely right, it doesn't matter. If it's an enforcement decision and a court is evaluating the enforcement decision, I do think that a court would evaluate whether the whether the board was acting in good faith, because that's one of the standards for directors of nonprofit corporations is where you acting in good faith, were you acting reasonably in the best interest of your association? To that extent, I think that to the extent that it goes to the good faith analysis, it could matter on something like that, not on something like strict liability.

SPEAKER_03 11:03

Don, I think you're gonna be excited about this question. What is your commentary for insurance?

SPEAKER_00 11:11

Yeah, I'm gonna go down the rabbit hole. And um I just want I maybe a little different rabbit hole. I think when we're looking at good intentions and we're looking at risk, I know we have John and we have Elliot here, but I just can't say enough. Please consult with your attorney. We're just seeing so much going on where no one's talking to the attorney. They're signing management contracts, they're signing vendor contracts, they're going and making settlements with homeowners or violations on their own. And Deb and I don't find out about it until there's the threat of a lawsuit. And a lot of times it's a phone call and it's like, hey, Dawn, hey Deb, we have this situation. What do you think? And we're like, oh my gosh, this is bad, bad, bad, bad.

SPEAKER_03 11:59

Deb, intentions matter big in insurance, though, don't they? And whether or not you're going to be covered.

SPEAKER_02 12:09

Well, so we are evaluating risk, right? We're not evaluating your intentions, right? Obviously, we want boards to act in good faith, but we're evaluating, you know, the actual risks associated with the community association. Are you getting your snowplow contractors written contracts with additional insured hold harmless so that if that claim happens, we can transfer that risk. Um, so we're we don't the good to the handshakes are are a thing of the past now. We really want everything in writing, we want to understand all of our exposures. Um, so I'm not so sure good intentions are really um taken into consideration here.

SPEAKER_03 12:50

I think I was thinking about Deb, an insurance. If you do something intentionally to cause harm, right? Can you talk that that's kind of the direction I was going? You could be risking your coverage. Insurance just isn't a a fall safe where you could just do whatever you want to and assume you'll be covered. Can can you kind of talk about what you understand what I'm getting at?

SPEAKER_02 13:10

Right. So, yeah, willful and um, you know, criminal. And so, right, none of that is covered by insurance. You can't just do something and say, oh, well, the insurance will just take care of it. Um, that's not how insurance works, right? That's a a moral and an ethic, ethical um situation, right? You can't over-insure something in order to then burn it down to get money, right? We we see that happen. Um, so yeah, no, that that all of that kind of situations are not covered by insurance.

SPEAKER_03 13:43

Okay. Uh, question from the audience. We have a board that doesn't listen to the attorney. So we're advising the board to consult the attorney and they're doing it. I assume this is a manager. Then they completely misinterpret the attorney's advice. John, what do you think of that?

SPEAKER_05 14:06

Um whose interpretation is that the board is misinterpreting the attorney's advice. Um that's one question I had. Um but so the the important point is there's a business judgment rule in most states. I know in New York, New York has it. And that provides essentially that a court won't look into board decisions or board actions to see if they were misguided or or an error. Um unless they unless they just totally fail to comply with the bylaws. And to get that protection, one of the you're allowed to rely on the advice of your professionals. So if you're not relying on the advice of your professionals, you might lose that protection. So if if the question, you know, if it's clear that they just disregarded the advice of the attorney, then that exposes them to losing the business judgment rule protection.

SPEAKER_03 15:10

Elliot, something I don't like about this, uh it's a I know it's a manager asking the question, right? So they have a board. I'm sure they're right. The board is doesn't obviously respect the attorney too much or doesn't respect attorney's counsel. But anyway, when they get the advice from the attorney, maybe the manager pushes it through. The board is, you know, let's just let's assume they're misunderstanding it not on purpose. They're not doing it willfully, right? For whatever psychological reason, they're not just getting it. If I was the manager, though, boy, would I be nervous offering my two cents on what my interpretation as a manager would be, right? Can you do you know what I'm getting at here, Elliot?

SPEAKER_04 15:52

I think um, I I do think that it's probably not appropriate for the manager to tell the board, here's what the attorney is saying. I think that if the manager thinks the board is misinterpreting the attorney's advice, the manager should tell the attorney, I think they are misinterpreting your advice. And tell the board that too, and let them get it straight. I don't think it's the manager's job to interpret the legal advice for the board because you get into them practicing law at that point, which is not good.

SPEAKER_03 16:20

So in this case, the manager's just gonna have to let it go. They're gonna relay the information in an appropriate manner. And if the board misinterprets it, they'll contact the attorney. But, you know, there's nothing else for the manager to do here if the board doesn't respond to any of those actions.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

Deb and I are experts about people not listening to what they're told. And so what I would say to this manager is to document in a written chain, board, um, the attorney has provided this opinion. Are you saying you disagree? Are you, you know, this, please reach out to the attorney. Just document so that you have later on, when it does become a lawsuit, then you do have some protection yourself. That I told you so.

SPEAKER_03 17:09

Michelle, Dawn is so good at like figuring out ways to make sure you cover yourself, not in a bad way, but wow, that sounds like really good advice. Michelle, as an engineer, though, everyone listens to every word you say because engineers are so fascinating, and you guys always have so many fascinating things to talk about. Do you agree that engineers are completely fascinating people? Yes. Okay. All right. All right, I want to throw this one. I I feel a little I didn't give the attorneys a heads up on this, so maybe we can skip it if you guys want to dive deeper into it. HUD is pulling back from aggressively enforcing emotional support animal accommodation claims. Um, before I go to the attorneys, Deb, are you familiar with this and how I came up with it?

SPEAKER_02 18:02

Actually, no, I didn't know HUD was changing their stance on emotional support animal accommodations.

SPEAKER_03 18:08

Okay. Dawn, can you just kind of don't tell the whole thing about it because I want the lawyers, but I want to make sure I'm giving them the groundwork that I'm trying to respond to here.

SPEAKER_00 18:18

Yes, it was just a recent decision, I believe in the last two months, that HUD, which is the um they provide um fair housing and equal opportunities, and they make sure that people are admin to that too for housing. And they looked more closely at the Americans with Disability Act ADA service animal definition, and they've decided that um your peacock and your pig and your other types of support animals will not be classified as an emotional support animal, which changes because I'm sure the attorneys are going to start to see a lot more questions about that. So someone's at the pool with their pet parrot, um, that might not be allowed anymore. We used to have to stay quiet about it and um be worried about discrimination claims.

SPEAKER_03 19:05

John, do you want to offer commentary at all?

SPEAKER_05 19:08

Yeah, I mean, I had heard heard that also, and I I mean I I can say in New York, at least with the uh build properties I represent, it's it's almost exclusively uh in every instance, it's the issue is a dog. Um not peacocks or other exotic animals. Um so, like a classic example is can you bring the dog to the pool if it's an emotional support dog? You know, I've been telling them that I don't think that's changed. I think the the advice is if you have the proper um justification for the emotional support dog, and the dog can behave, you you can bring the dog to the pool as long as they don't go in the pool.

SPEAKER_03 19:56

Elliot, are you familiar with this? Because if you are, I have a question really quick. I'm familiar with it.

SPEAKER_04 20:02

Um, I don't think anybody completely has their head around it considering how recently it happened, but I but I'm generally familiar with it.

SPEAKER_03 20:09

I interpreted it part of it as like if you call them, they're not gonna jump all over every claim anymore. Basically, that's the way I interpreted it when I read it. Do you think that's an accurate interpretation?

SPEAKER_04 20:22

That's not that that's not that far off. I mean, because the the really important thing to get, which I think you understand, is that what has changed is HUD's enforcement priorities. And that is the only thing that has changed. The text of the Fair Housing Act hasn't changed, the rules implementing the Fair Housing Act have not changed, although HUD is working on that too. So I think it so, like, there's not some law that has changed other than HEDS and HUD's enforcement guidance. How that actually impacts things on the ground likely does sort of look like well, HUD's not going to be as aggressive with these emotional support animal claims now. But that doesn't mean therefore everything has changed. It's one factor when you're looking at how do we respond to a complaint regarding a regarding an animal.

SPEAKER_03 21:10

Yeah, that's kind of how I how I thought about it also was that it's changed a little bit, but the whole basis of it. I think if you have a legitimate claim, they're still going to be all over it. But if it's dicey, maybe not so much anymore.

SPEAKER_04 21:23

It comes down to whether HUD, so under the Fair Hazard Act, you can't discriminate based on a disability. You're discriminating on based on a disability if you do not provide an accommodation that is reasonable. HUD has previously said it is a reasonable accommodation to um work with somebody in certain ways, even if it's an untrained emotional support animal, you still have to work with them. HUD's enforcement guidance now is if it's not a trained animal, we don't think that it's reasonable to require an accommodation. And that, but again, that's just HUD's guidance. That's not a court, that's not the statute. So that's why it's a little bit up in the air. Honestly, as to what it really means.

SPEAKER_03 22:02

Uh, Michelle, I do have engineering questions for today, but the audience wants to know where where have you been going? What's do you want to share with us what's been going on? You're you're usually you usually don't get up and walk around and leave. I meant that's something we like Dave Byrne would do when he's here. I'm really sorry.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

These darn kiddos. You don't have to be sorry.

SPEAKER_03 22:23

We're just curious, but you don't have to share. But is it something you could share, or is it you want to keep it to yourself? You can.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

You know, negotiating play dates, people coming to pick them up, just all the summer fun.

SPEAKER_03 22:36

Those kids, don't they don't you have a job to do? How old are your kids again? Uh 10 and 7. Jeez, this uh all right. Are you gonna keep them anyway? Well, no, they're on the plate dates now, so now I'm free. Oh, okay. There you go. All right. Um, construction construction problems rarely stay construction problems. I was this came up, somebody kind of sent it to me. They're talking about poor planning, um, cost overruns. Construction's complicated, you need good planning. Do you agree?

SPEAKER_01 23:15

Yeah. I quite understand the question though, with them really saying construction problems. Do you mean just that like it leaks over to financial problems, potentially like legal problems? Is that the thought here?

SPEAKER_03 23:28

Yeah, they they they basically were telling me something like I don't write a verbatim here, but they were talking about when they get involved in construction projects, they say because of poor planning that they've had issues with the residents getting angry, cost overruns, insurance issues, disputes. They're just not confident that a construction project is going to go smoothly. So I guess my question is is it a complicated business where you should you expect things not to go smoothly? Or do you can you plan for it? Can you get away from that? Or is that just come with the territory?

SPEAKER_01 24:00

Yeah, I mean, you can definitely plan for it, whether it's having um someone truly plan the project where they're handling from the RFP and scoping out the project to selecting the business partner to do the work, to monitoring the construction, to warrantying the construction. I mean, that's a whole profession that engineers offer. Um, and there's even more of like a true strategic planner position that will help associations kind of communicate this to homeowners and get that community buy-in. So there's absolutely resources within our industry to prevent that.

SPEAKER_03 24:40

Someone's asking me about ARC. If you could expand on what you're asking me about, I would appreciate it. All right, Deb, insurance. I don't know where I came up with this. Insurance is no longer just a renewal item. I probably saw this like three months ago and threw it on here because I knew we were doing this segment. Carriers are looking closely at claims history, deferred maintenance, inspections, roofs, balconies, reserves, and risk controls. It's even possible that Dawn sent it to me, to be honest with you. Deb, why do I have this? Why do I have this up here?

SPEAKER_02 25:18

So, yes, the business of insurance has changed over the last few years. Um, it used to be, you know, you every three years you're remarketing somebody's insurance to make sure you're still getting the best premium and the best coverages. Um, and renewals were a lot easier to just manage over time. Um, but now it's a lot more in-depth. Um, underwriters aren't just renewing accounts anymore. They're they're asking more questions, they're asking if there's reserve studies, they want to see the reserve studies, they're asking for actual like details now because like property managers or boards would give us details like, oh yeah, the roof was replaced five years ago. Well, no, they want to now know like exactly like when was this roof replaced? When was that roof replaced? Like um, they want more detailed information um in order to underwrite the risk properly uh and charge the correct premium. So all of the that kind of information was, I mean, was kind of asked for in the past, but not as um as it is today. They really want to see these documents, they want to they want to review contracts, right? If you're having slip and fall claims, they want to see that snow removal contract to make sure that they um have the proper risk transfers in place. So underwriters are asking for a lot more information. Renewals aren't just renewals anymore. It's uh it's a lot more complex than it has been in the past.

SPEAKER_03 26:44

Dawn, if you don't want to answer, don't. I just realized something. You and Dev have to work really hard, right? I mean, it just seems like every time we do a live stream, things get more and more complicated and you have to do more and more stuff. Um, is anyone gonna go into the HOA insurance? I mean, there must be other insurance industries where it's a lot easier to make a living. I mean, how much more could this continue? I mean, you guys are gonna have to have a doctorate in insurance at some point.

SPEAKER_00 27:16

Like, how is this gonna continue? Well, I just want to say for Dev and myself, I think that anybody who specializes in community association insurance, law, even reserve, like Michelle, engineering, we really have to know a lot. We have to know about, and for insurance, we have to know at least seven different insurance coverages for every HOA or condo, and that's not getting into specialty insurance. And I say that because when I I the other day I was writing an apartment risk for and it was three coverages property, general liability, and umbrella. I'm like, whoa, this was easy. And it's just at the end of the day, and I sorry, John, and sorry, Elliot, but the law complicates things. So, with right now, what Deb and I are providing a transfer of financial risk to the insurance carrier. So they're gonna come up with the money. So, as Deb said, they want to know everything, but there's cases that are going on right now, and as they become settled, the insurance company says, Oh, we had no idea that that was an exposure. Deb, Dawn, we're changing the insurance policy this year. And they don't even tell us, sometimes it's just a notice that goes to the client first. You know, artificial intelligence, bodily injury, assault, and battery. All of these laws and cases change the insurance. So Deb and I are out there having to look for a different carrier coverage to supplement, and it's a tough scenario to be in.

SPEAKER_03 28:38

Why would you think John and Elliot would be in? They love wood insurance. The more complicated the legal world gets, the better off they want it. Lawyers want it to be as complicated and not make any sense whatsoever. That's how they that's how they make a living. I meant Michelle would probably hope that reserves even gets look at all the designations under Michelle's name. That's a lot of brain power. She probably wishes reserves were even 50,000 times more complicated, then she'd be the only one that could figure it out. I I think insurance is the only rarity one where it seems like you're gonna get the same commission no matter what.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

Um for saying that, Ray, because Deb and I are very proud of what we know and our expertise and how hard we worked, but there could be an agent that represents the same carrier and he's only been writing insurance for six months. And guess what? He gets paid the same amount as us. And so if you're gonna go and sit in front of Elliot or John with the judge, and the judge says, Well, how'd you choose your insurance agent? And they just say price. Well, guess what? Deb and I don't write the prices of insurance, we help even negotiate them. So choose wisely.

SPEAKER_03 29:44

Michelle, question. Seriously, you have a tremendous amount of designations. You do. Well, I don't know if it's a tremendous amount, but you know a lot of stuff. Um, and a lot of people don't know a lot of stuff. So how does that work out? So you do the more complex reserve studies because why do we have, I just realized something why are why are the reserve specialists, they seem to have so many different levels, right, of expertise and so many different kinds of engineering degrees. I don't know. Do you know what I'm trying to ask here?

SPEAKER_01 30:17

I think um I think the reserve specialists, because we're looking at anything and everything in a community, right? In HOA with ponds and streets and subsurface utility pipes and clubhouses and pools or mid and high rises with elevators and really complex mechanical equipment and parking structures and all these structural components and kind of everything in between. Um, you really can't be or I mean, and you can be an expert in something, but you really have to be knowledgeable in everything. So, like personally at reserve advisors, we want someone that has an engineering background, like we'll only hire engineers. But what specific engineering background we're really we really don't care because if you can get through engineering school in one of those areas, we can kind of teach you what you need to know about reserve studies, um, or as far as what you need to know, level of detail for all the other components. So I guess that's just a long way of saying um it really has to be jack of all trades. Like you have to be knowledgeable with in kind of everything similar to insurance or even attorneys, right? Like there's just a wide spectrum of things you need to know about this little part of each of our jobs. Like we're only this for these boards, but within that, there's so much, which is just another plug to lean on the professionals, um, especially these volunteer board members.

SPEAKER_03 31:43

People should definitely be leaning on the professionals. You know, what came up before our we went live, everybody, is we were talking about like um sometimes, you know, we don't dive deep into particular cases and offer really precise legal commentary here because we want people to ask their attorneys. We're only here really to offer some broad strokes and get people like boards and managers to think about what's going on. We want them to refer to their attorney. We don't want to dive deep on something and have somebody sit here and say, oh, that's the answer for my association. Because we don't really know. The law is complicated and everything varies. Um, let's stick with construction here. There's another construction question here. Let me find that in a second. Uh let's see. When you say construction problems, are you talking about a common element construction? Or are you talking about the architectural review construction projects submitted by homeowners? Do you want to tackle that one, Michelle? I was talking about general construction projects, but that really isn't they vary that much? I guess they do, right?

SPEAKER_01 32:52

I don't think the association and the board is really focused on the ones that they're executing on behalf of the association, right? Those for those common area components. That was where my head went too.

SPEAKER_03 33:09

How will Fnma elimination of limited reviews impact sellers and buyers? Elliot, does this question make any sense to you?

SPEAKER_04 33:23

F M N A?

SPEAKER_03 33:25

FNMA.

SPEAKER_05 33:27

Fannie Mae.

SPEAKER_03 33:28

John.

SPEAKER_05 33:29

Probably Fannie Mae.

SPEAKER_03 33:32

Oh, Fannie Mae. Fannie Mae. How will Fannie Mae elimination of limited reviews impact sellers and buyers? Do you want to tackle this one, Elliot? Or is it a little bit more? I'd have to look into that one. I don't know, I don't know that off the top of my head. John, do you want to tackle it?

SPEAKER_05 33:49

I mean, I I'll I'll try, but um so it depends. Uh so you could still get a conventional loan, even if it's not fanny maid, but if it's a fanny mae loan, you know, they I think they account for more than half of condo loans. So if they're changing their um lending policies to condominiums, you know, those so they have guidelines you could look up, they're all on their Fannie Mae website. Um, yeah, that those are important. It's kind of this is more like of a banking issue than anything else. Uh, but that there are they're very important guidelines to be aware of.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

Yeah, my understanding is that the full review is gonna cause many more associations to end up on the do not lend list because so many were fast-tracked. They did this limited review where they didn't holistically review the budget, but now they have to, right? So they're gonna really make sure that they're funding reserves appropriately, that there aren't any projects underway that they didn't know about, special assessments. Like there's gonna be a lot more questions um on the association's financial operations.

SPEAKER_05 34:56

Yeah, they're gonna look, they're gonna like flag deferred maintenance items.

SPEAKER_03 35:02

So this is even for people that's had it's had it done it before. It's like our whole question with the board going back, right? If you were if this was acceptable before, it's not gonna be acceptable in the future, and you mean it you may have to go back and make changes. Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_05 35:15

John, yeah. So it it's it's like a new lend new lending guidelines. They're they're gonna um as Michelle mentioned, much more thorough review. Um, I think they're gonna focus especially on any deferred maintenance items.

SPEAKER_03 35:33

Someone in the audience just said, not John, Michelle said it, explanation point. Yes, I'm sorry. Michelle was the one who answered that. I don't know why I gave John credit. Sorry about that, Michelle. Okay. All right. What I'm gonna do is I'm gonna do a lightning round and I'm gonna have you guys bring up any topic you want within 60 seconds, and then we'll we'll talk about it more if we want to. Elliot's saying, I wish somebody had given me a warning about this. I know I just I just thought of it, Elliot, to be honest with you. All right. This will also give me a chance to use some of my sound effects if I want to, because I'll play my music if you start running late, and I'm just dying to test my sound effects today. In the meantime, I'll take any questions from the audience that are coming through that I have someone here to answer. Some of them I don't have anyone here to answer. So I am gonna start off with Michelle. And hold on, Michelle. All right, go ahead, Michelle. I'm giving you Superman powers, superpower, super reserve powers, where you could change the course of association history by just your commentary. You are a hero, Michelle, all training of reserve advisors.

SPEAKER_01 36:47

Oh man. Um, lean on your reserve study professional. Hopefully, you have a reserve study. Um, there's a lot more scrutiny. We talked about insurance looking at it, Fanny Freddie. Um, there's now legal requirements in certain areas. I just strongly encourage you to work with your reserve uh professional to make sure that you understand the funding recommendations, which funding methodology is utilized, make sure you're on board with it because there are options. You do have a say as a board manager, which strategy you want to utilize, um, and just make sure that everyone is in support of it, agreed on it, and ideally implementing it so that you can make sure that you're renewed on your insurance and that you're eligible for um lending and things like that. So please reach out to us, CAI. Um, we just finished revising the reserve study best practice guide that will be released in the coming months. And this time we put a lend on a little lens on it for managers and boards on how they should be reviewing the study, questions they should be asking. So big plug for that. Um, we'll make sure, Ray, I'll get you the link when it's ready, if we can share it with everybody, just to help uh make the process easier for everybody. And I think I went over 60 seconds, sorry.

SPEAKER_03 38:02

No, yeah, I didn't mean you have to like answer, I just spent like in 60 seconds just to get the ball rolling. But, Michelle, I knew you were gonna say that. So I want something more precise. It's extremely important what you said, but I want something more precise. So I'm gonna come back around to you and you just give me a little reserve tidbit. Can you do that? Are you up? If you're not up for it, I get it. All right.

SPEAKER_01 38:29

I'm gonna let you go first to try and get the juices flowing, I guess. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 38:33

Well, you got like a long time to go around here, so I meant. All right, so I guess I'll give everyone the superhero music, even though they weren't as enthusiastic as you were. Don, you are an insurance, you are the superman of the insurance world, flying through the air, constantly correcting policies and saving people from disaster. Don, what is your insurance advice for the audience? And don't worry, I'm not gonna do this. Audience, I'm not gonna do this all the time with the sound effects, just today.

SPEAKER_00 39:03

Financial audits, financial audits, financial audits, independent CPA. You have a board transition, you need an audit. You have a transition of your management company, you need an audit. You have a transition from your developer builder board to an owner board, you need an audit. You need probably a transition study too. You need it. And why is that? Because we're seeing cyber claims, we're seeing construction claims, we're seeing DNO claims, you name it, and it always goes back to the money. And people are just they think they're paying attention to the money, but these basic audits will really put eyes on everything. Plus, the transparency really helps cut down on owner complaints and owner litigation.

SPEAKER_03 39:52

Cyber insurance, you've been talking about it for years. Are we finally at the point where people are purchasing it?

SPEAKER_00 39:59

We sell cyber insurance to 90% of our clients.

SPEAKER_03 40:05

And it's still relatively inexpensive, correct?

SPEAKER_00 40:08

Uh, the average policy premium is $400.

SPEAKER_03 40:11

Yeah, it definitely. I'm I'm glad that people are finally understanding it. At least look at it, audience. You really, I think if you look at it, you're gonna decide that you want to go ahead and have it. Let me hit a question here. What if we are having difficulty finding an auditor? Does CAI have a list of these types of vendors? Michelle, do you know that by any chance? You know everything about CAI.

SPEAKER_01 40:35

I think I don't know of a chapter that doesn't include a section in their service directory for accountants.

SPEAKER_03 40:43

Okay. Yeah, we tie in the nationals directory. So if you go to our website, we're just gonna tie you right into nationals. So basically, an account, you want to reach out to accounting firms to be for auditors. Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_00 40:56

Okay. Yes, by the way, in that audit, you want to have an asset list. You want to make sure that everything is accounted for every year. You have to do it. And I'm gonna tell you right now, Deb, you can back me up on it. I think only 10% of our boards are getting audits.

SPEAKER_02 41:13

Deb. Yeah, I see them do. I mean, I don't know, I think it's a little higher, 10% here in New York anyway. Um, because we are, we have been for years telling them that they have to have an accountant do a financial statement every year. Um, so a lot of our uh associations are doing that. I'm not sure if they're going as deep as an audit, um, but they definitely are doing preparing the financial statements.

SPEAKER_03 41:42

Okay. Let's go over to Elliot. You are a lawyer savior. You are someone who sweeps into an office and immediately takes control and saves them from multi-million dollar lawsuits. That's the best it show I could do, Elliot, because that's all I could come up with. Elliot, hot topic.

SPEAKER_04 42:05

If there's I mean, I think the hot one clear hot topic is AI right now. And the, you know, it is the future. I think if you resist it, that's futile. You're gonna have to learn to deal with it. But the thing I really caution my clients is do not outsource your thinking to AI because that's what I'm beginning to find is that clients are writing emails to me using it and then putting my advice through it, and then I find that they never understand what I actually told them. And so use it to do what you know how to do better, use it to you know supercharge yourself, but do not outsource your thinking to it and do not take legal advice from AI. Oh my goodness, do not take legal advice from AI.

SPEAKER_03 42:46

The lawyers hate AI, I'll tell you right now, audience, they do, they they really don't they don't like it, and insurance is a close second. So, because people are just getting bad advice from it. It's it's just I don't know anybody would absolutely just follow AI and not call the attorney, but anyway. Um, if the board wants a local auditor, but there aren't many of these professionals in this area, you know. Michelle, I have to agree with that. I've been involved with a lot of CI chapters. The ones I've been involved with, we don't have like a tremendous amount of accounting firms involved. Have you found that also?

SPEAKER_01 43:27

Well, that's fair. I would say there's probably not members for accounts as much as some of the other professions. The management company ideally has a firm in mind that they typically work with. And I do know that there are some national members, um, not to name drop or plug, but I think Newman jumps out as one that's a national member. Um I don't see any harm with using national members as long as they're aware of any like specific state. Requirements or anything.

SPEAKER_03 44:02

Yeah, I mean, one thing that I learned is a lot of the accounting firms have different representatives in different states. I didn't I didn't realize that. We recently have been using an accounting firm not anywhere near the state that we need the accounting work done. And that person's, I guess, is the right term, licensed in that state. And it's it seems to be working out fine. So um, but there are some great accounting firms. I know in New Jersey, there's a whole bunch that jump out to me and things like that. So, okay, let's jump over to John. Hold on a second, John. John Legumia, a worldly man, multinational between Europe and the US, multiple homes in multiple countries, a man of not only the law, but of great lifestyle and class. When you think of John Legumia, you think of Butler service, you think of Ritz Carleton. All right, that's all I have for you, John.

unknown 44:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 45:00

That was a nice little what is gonna be your uh H O A condo hot topic?

SPEAKER_05 45:07

Okay, it it it it is very mundane, um, but but I hear it too many times. I'm sure Don and Deborah also hear it too many times. Leaks. Just because a leak comes from the unit above doesn't mean it's their fault and they have to pay for everything. You still have to look to your casualty loss provisions in your bylaws, you probably have to fix you know at least the sheetrock and insulation. Um and just because even even if it's a tub overflow, uh it's it's it's gonna be treated as uh as a casualty loss. And I this comes up probably the most of any non-collection issue for for me at least. Um yeah, leaks leaks from above.

SPEAKER_03 46:00

I think that's a great one. I do. I don't I I think it's absolutely great. Um, I don't think we bring it up enough, and um in a couple months it's gonna be even more timely if you live up in the northeast. Right, John? Ice damming is one of the most popular ice Michelle. Did you know that I John is has an ice damming program that people come out in droves? He does it with either Deb or Greg, and it's an extremely popular program. Did you know that, Michelle?

SPEAKER_05 46:30

The engineer's key.

SPEAKER_03 46:32

Yeah, I didn't know that. That's awesome. Yeah, we get a big turnout for that, so it's complex. All right, Deb, you are the last one. Let me all right. Remember, I can't hear it. Hold on.

SPEAKER_05 46:47

She's not gonna really hear it.

unknown 46:48

I can't hear it.

SPEAKER_03 46:49

Deb Jarelli from the Jarelli Insurance Empire. Right now, just in the eastern part of the United States, but soon the entire world. Her kids also grew up with an insurance policy when they were babies. Other kids had rattlers, not Deb's kids, they had insurance policies. That's how you put them to sleep. I know. Your kids probably aren't, they probably do know a lot about insurance or will just from overhearing. Don't you think so? Seriously.

SPEAKER_02 47:22

Um, yeah, they do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:23

Nothing wrong with that. Okay. What do you got?

SPEAKER_02 47:28

So my biggest pet peeve that I don't think is talked about enough is boards and property managers taking shortcuts and not getting written contracts and not having those contracts reviewed by attorneys if they are doing them because they don't know what they're signing most of the time. Um, and it can come back to bite you when a claim happens. Um, so again, it's kind of relying on your professionals, but I get they don't want to send it to the attorney because the attorney charges them to review it. But it's very important that it be reviewed um before signing it and before a claim happens. Um, because that is risk transfer, and that's part of what we do as an insurance agent. Um, we're always trying to educate boards and property managers on transferring risk.

SPEAKER_03 48:19

I love that one. One thing I I think Dave Burns said it, I could be wrong. He said once that's the small contracts that like are kind of like unassuming and they don't seem complicated that come back to haunt associations the most. Because I think people let their guard down. Deb, do you agree with that? Does that sound like something you think Dave would say or another attorney may have said?

SPEAKER_02 48:42

Yes, I totally agree with that because everybody's always sending the contracts to the attorneys when it's like, you know, we're doing an entire roof job for a community. Those contracts get looked at. But those contracts are usually the ones that are already been looked at by one attorney or another attorney, or they're using the necessary forms. Um, it's those smaller projects that nobody thinks about that can definitely turn into a bigger problem later because you didn't have the right wording in the contract.

SPEAKER_03 49:11

All right. That's a great one. All right, Michelle, I didn't forget we're gonna circle back. Um, by the way, you're a big deal at CAI. You're running a you're ahead of a really important committee, aren't you? If I remember right. Well, you were.

SPEAKER_01 49:24

Yeah, the best practice guide, the reserve study best practice guide. But we hopefully just finalize the edits and comments this week. So it should be released soon.

SPEAKER_03 49:36

I think it's a big deal. That's a very prestigious committee. So all right. So do you have another more precise tidbit is I could throw some things at you if you want, but do you have anything?

SPEAKER_01 49:49

Not further on this funding. I think just to like kind of narrow it down, there are different funding methodologies. Some providers will only show one, some provide multiple. I think it is important for boards to understand that they do have um a role and an ability to discuss the funding. It's not, while it is formulas and formulaic, there are choices. Um, and I encourage all board members to make sure that they're in agreement with the funding methodology that's utilized in their study. Because they can provide very different funding recommendations.

SPEAKER_03 50:25

Is reserves getting more complicated or less complicated since it's it's so much in the in the forefront? Is it made or is it just stayed the same?

SPEAKER_01 50:34

I think we're trying to make it less complicated. The methodologies and things haven't changed, but we're trying to be more um vocal and communicative about the process and how it's done and make sure the disclosures are better. So we're trying to make it easier, but the process I think remains the same.

SPEAKER_03 50:55

Is there anyone out there not getting reserves? I mean, I I would be shocked by that, right? I don't know how you could be on a board and not understand you're gonna have to have a reserve at some point. Is that still going on, Michelle, or has it gotten better?

SPEAKER_01 51:07

Well, yeah. Yeah, I mean, even in states where there's legally required, there's still holdouts.

SPEAKER_03 51:13

I don't understand it. Like people, you know, Don, people understand you need insurance, right? Nobody gets on a board, I think, and says, Oh, I don't need we don't need insurance. Um, I guess we could ask the lawyers this too. I don't understand why some boards don't understand why they would want to protect their own interests and have some kind of reserve study. For me, I was gonna ask Dawn that, but go ahead, Elliot.

SPEAKER_04 51:38

No, I was I was gonna say um it's the question is like we I agree, like the the board should have DNO insurance and they should do a reserve study. The both those things are very important, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 51:51

Um, I'm managing a large-scale community that has never had a reserve study. So, you know, I'd be interested in if you would, I don't want to know the details because I don't want this to be identifiable in any way, but if you could send me the person who sent it in, how is that possible? I don't understand. Is the board brought up the reserve study and they just like forget about it? Do they not know about it? I I don't understand what one positive aspect of not having a reserve study would be. Can anyone on the panel give me one positive aspect of why not to have a reserve study? And I'll acknowledge something first. I was familiar with high rises in Manhattan and they don't have reserve studies because the people are billionaires. So if you're a bunch of billionaires and you could write a check for $400,000, $500,000 at a drop of the hat, well, they don't have reserve studies in Manhattan. But the question is anyone on the panel think is there any what what logical reason could somebody come up with not having a reserve study? Don, I think you were gonna jump in.

SPEAKER_00 52:52

I I can tell you one thing. It came, it was um, and it came from a reserve specialist involved in litigation, and the board had a reserve study, but they didn't follow it, or it disclosed information that they should have been following. So some boards may opt not to do it because there's going to be known issues that they cannot or will not address that will open them up or expose them to liability.

SPEAKER_03 53:19

Michelle, that used to be so common. I can't believe that's still a thing now.

SPEAKER_01 53:23

That's what I was gonna say. Ignorance is bliss, especially it's not the right, I don't agree with that, but I think that is the reason why some boards they know there's issues, they know there's things they need to do. And once when it's documented, they'll feel the need to ask act on it. Now, in my opinion, now now you have the right to act on it, right? You have a third party telling you you should do it, and you have a fiduciary duty as a board member to act on it. Um, but I think they they prefer ignorance as bliss, unfortunately, sometimes.

SPEAKER_03 53:55

John, I didn't even mention that because that was like a thing years ago. I didn't even think that was kind of still going on. I meant I don't boards could still not do everything in the reserve study. Obviously, if it's a life safety issue, they they need to do it, right? But I don't understand. I I can't even believe that's still going on that people think that, oh, we're not going to do the reserve study because it may show us something we don't want to hear about.

SPEAKER_05 54:14

Oh, yeah, that's it's there's still the tension, and uh I see it frequently in the Hudson Valley area, still between you know, we don't want to spend any money, we want to keep the common charges down. How dare you raise our common charges? Um, and then a newer mentality is you know, um, I I had a property where the issue was involved retaining walls, you know, like railroad tie retaining walls, which are uh now against code, like and they're really old. And you know, they there was like a uh uh a split. And some owners are like, here's my check, fix it as soon as you can. And other owners are like, Oh, we could just like hammer a couple you know, pieces of wood and nail and fix it. You still have that tension, and they they think oh, John Froze.

SPEAKER_03 55:07

Um, you know, Elliot, the person got back to me. We lost you there for a second, John. But um Elliot, they wrote back the community is I don't want to say how old it is. It's it's it's an older community. Uh, the board a board member wrote a long-term plan a couple years ago, but it's never been an official study. Okay, well, I I could maybe I don't know if I like it, but I can at least see there's some logic there. They they have something. Um, Elliot, not doing reserve studies because you don't want to possibly get some bad news. Is that what we're talking about here? Am I misunderstanding?

SPEAKER_04 55:43

That is digging a hole potentially deeper. That is all that is. You need to have, I would say you need to have the reserve study. But the things aren't capital's not gonna not deteriorate because you didn't have the reserve study. I mean, I'm not an engineer, but I know things kind of fall apart over time. That that's that's what that's my engineering expertise right there.

SPEAKER_03 56:03

Yeah, even I'm falling apart over time. I would assume that buildings are okay, and it's around the same time frame. All right, Michelle. Someone asked Michelle if there's a quick trick for educating the community about reserve studies. Is there, Michelle, is there what how do you do it?

SPEAKER_01 56:24

Yeah, as far as a quick trick, I think identifying some of the pain points that they experience, right? When you have these surprise projects that we need to do, or now we need a special assessment and we homeowners are complaining about things that need to be done, but the funds aren't available. Like that's the whole intent of the reserve study. So even if you choose not to follow the funding recommendation, at least you know these are expenses we're going to incur. So if we're not going to increase dues, we need to be prepared for special assessments or a loan. Um, it really gives them that plan, kind of a roadmap to work off of. And without it, they're left not knowing what's going to happen next, right?

SPEAKER_03 57:11

I meant as an owner in a high-rise building, the board has incorporated started a whole bunch of projects. Like, I'm not mad at them. Why would I be mad at the board as an owner because the building needs repairs? It's not their fault, especially since these things are like decades old. I just don't understand why this is even a thing. Um I don't know if the panel can answer this one really quick. When market conditions are favorable and banks want to lend, they use questionnaires as a workaround. Does anybody want to add anything to that? I don't really okay. All right, we'll just leave that one as is. All right, let's do closing thoughts really quick. We have like two minutes. I know it's very similar to the HOA hot topic. I know that we want everyone to go to their professionals. We know that that is extremely important and you should always get legal at legal and professional advice. Deb, closing thoughts on today or anything.

SPEAKER_02 58:06

So my closing thoughts are boards are managing um they're they're fiduciary, they're managing a business, right? So they have to sometimes make hard decisions. Um and you need to do that. And raising common charges has to happen, and you you can't keep just you know kicking the can down the road. We have to, you know, take responsibility and do what's best for the community, John.

SPEAKER_05 58:36

Yeah, responsibility um also it comes sometimes. You have to make the tough decisions to spend money when you know it's not gonna be popular, but but you also have an engineer telling you that your your structures are way beyond your useful lives and in danger of collapsing.

SPEAKER_03 58:56

Elliot.

SPEAKER_04 58:58

I'd say don't hesitate to go talk to your professionals because you're scared of what they're gonna tell you. Because I would just say the devil you know is better than the one you don't, and you want to know if you have problems in your community and deal with them.

SPEAKER_03 59:13

Michelle, it's like not going to the doctor. What's your closing thoughts on today?

SPEAKER_01 59:21

I would say, in addition to all of that, homeowners or home buyers are becoming more savvy and starting to ask for reserve studies before they're even agreeing to the unit. So it's not only mortgage approval from banks and fanny, the buyers are assessing their risk too. We've had multiple management companies telling us that. Um, so this not having that plan will affect resale as well. So while it feels uncomfortable to raise these dues, if you can't sell your homes, it's going to be a much bigger consequence.

SPEAKER_00 59:53

Uh John. Contracts can be changed. If you have a contract, you must be reviewing it with your attorney, and the changes must be in favor of the association. I cannot say that enough. The contracts that Deb and I are seeing, we're not a party to it until you're asking us to pay a claim. Last thing is please have a party with us, meaning your insurance agent, your reserve specialist, and your attorney. Have us all come to an annual meeting with the board, an executive session, not open meeting, and let's talk about what the projects are they're gonna go on for the year, and let's have a partnership synergy. That is not occurring. And because we're not knowing what one hand is doing, we're seeing very high claims being paid. And I'm gonna tell you what, board members and homeowners, we're also seeing judgments against you guys personally. Big, big bucks. So take this very seriously.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:55

I think that's an important meeting, but it sounds like the most boring party on the planet that I've ever been invited to. You may want to work on the actual party invitation on that, but it is an extremely important meeting that people should go to, Dawn.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:06

But you don't think that Elliot, me, John, Michelle, and Deb wouldn't be a ton of fun. Come on.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:12

I know you guys are fun because I've had fun with some of you guys. But that being said, I want to thank everybody for being here. Thank you for letting me play around with my sound effects. I know I abused it, I couldn't help myself. And I hope to see everybody. The summer's kind of sporadic, but um, we'll be on and off and have reruns and then September, a whole bunch of new great stuff. All right. Thanks, everybody. Thanks for being here. Bye.