What If Mental Health Started With Skills, Not Diagnoses?

Want a clearer path between everyday stress and real support—without slapping on a label first? We dig into a practical, team-based model where Certified Mental Performance Consultants (CMPCs) and licensed clinicians collaborate to deliver proactive skills, timely referrals, and smoother returns to performance. From elite sport to H2F military teams to MLB clubhouses, we’ve seen how a two-way street can work: mental skills like attention control, stress regulation, and emotional management stabilize day-to-day demands, while clinicians step in for persistent distress, trauma, or complex comorbidities. Then, just like physical therapy after surgery, clients re-engage with performance coaching to rebuild confidence, routines, and resilience.

We tackle the tough stuff head-on: why insurance often forces diagnoses, how that fuels overdiagnosis, and where behavior health billing codes tied to medical conditions (sleep, pain, adherence, recovery) can ethically expand access for non-clinical interventions. We also break down the difference between CMPCs and popular coaching tracks, emphasizing education in behavior change, ethics, and referral boundaries that keep clients safe and outcomes strong. If you work in collegiate programs, primary care, PT, or high-performance environments, you’ll hear practical plays to embed CMPCs, structure warm handoffs, and track outcomes that de-risk integration.

This conversation is a roadmap for culture change. We share case examples across schools, boardrooms, and tactical units, outline where to start—networking with LCSWs and OTs, packaging group skills for campuses and clinics, and exploring dual paths with licensure—and call for real data-sharing to prove what many teams already know: when mental skills come first and diagnoses are reserved for when they’re truly needed, people get better faster and stay better longer. If you believe care should be earlier, lighter, and smarter, hit play, share it with a colleague, and leave a review to help push this model forward.

**A quick note from us: We love diving into the science of the nervous system and performance through the lens of our work. However, every mind and nervous system is its own unique landscape. The insights shared here are based on our professional experiences and are meant for education and inspiration—they aren't a replacement for your individualized professional care. Since mental health is so personal, please consult a medical or licensed provider for any specific medical or clinical needs.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 1:02

All right. Let's just get right into this because we got a lot to get into.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Spice, spicy topic.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Spicy topic, incoming. Welcome back, everybody.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

One I've been waiting for patiently for ever since we started this.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

I know. I know. Listen, if you guys aren't already sitting quick, grab grab your drinks because we got plenty of tea to spill.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

And bring your chair to the table.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Yes. Yes. Today we are lovingly talking about the well, Matt, you titled it the unspoken relationship. Yeah, let's let's give some bullet points about what we want to get into today.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

I think our non-clinical CMPCs being utilized to the fullest extent of our scope.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

How can we truly work side by side the clinical providers as well?

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Right. We have to figure out. Well, I mean, interdisciplinary care has been around forever. But I will say it's not even interdisciplinary. I would say like teen care is talked about existing, but exists a lot less in mental health.

Defining CMPC Roles And Scope

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Yeah, I think when we look at human performance teams, right? You and I both have worked in them on them on various contracts with the DOD. You have the umbrella of the team, right? We're here to enhance the performance. A lot of the contracts don't have the clinical provider on them except special special operations. That's the only one, that's the only one that truly has a glimpse of working side by side a performance consultant and a clinical provider. And I did I while I didn't have one directly tied to me in the contracts, it was up to us. I say us, the clinical provider and the embedded consultant, to establish the relationship. What can I take from your book? Help alleviate some of the strain in the clinic that may not be clinical, but it's all the client has had. Let me take some of your load off.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:03

You know?

SPEAKER_01 4:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

And but also I'm going to refer you people based on what I'm seeing while being embedded.

The Two-Way Street With Clinicians

SPEAKER_01 4:12

Right. It should be a working relationship. It should be a working relationship that functions a lot like, you know, the physical, like the physical two-way street from the, you know, the strength coach to the athletic trainer to the physical therapist to the orthopedist and back on down. Right. Like we should have a very similar two-way street. You know, I definitely want to get into why we think it needs to go that way because I think mental health isn't going anywhere. I'm not telling it to go anywhere, right? But we have to start. Gosh, my brain just wants to keep making metaphors, but like we have to we have to start kind of normalizing how we all play in the sandbox.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

Right. Um because performance consultants are not saying there's no need for clinical work.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

Because there absolutely is.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

Right, right. That's not going away.

SPEAKER_00 5:19

I think another button or topic is I'm gonna do it all because I have the training and experience and the education, the licensure, the certification. I'm just gonna do it all.

SPEAKER_01 5:38

Well, and I was doing a little bit to try and understand like context. I think a lot of it has to do with I think the maturity of the field, right? Like the CMPC is still very, very much a baby. You know, it was made in the 2010s. Right. So it's it's still very, very young. I think maybe that's why the let me let me step back. Performance consultant, the sports, the applied sports psychologist, like I think for even like a mental coach, that's not new, right? Like that's not new. That's been around forever. I think it benefits us to streamline it, to hold ethical accountability, to create, you know, we all love that process and procedure. That benefits everybody. But I think that, you know, so the the work that's being done is not new. I think the official title is new, and maybe that's what's shaking everybody up. Because I don't know. I mean, where do you see them? Like tactical has definitely grabbed a hold of them. They're definitely in the military for sure. Where else do we see CMPCs?

SPEAKER_00 6:51

I mean, you see CMPCs in certain professional organizations, certain per certain professional leagues. You see, like sports. Yeah, and so in sports, right? You see you uh I'm I would say you see them in the MLB. You see them um you see them work across uh high performing organizations, right? Corporate organizations will bring in a CMPC to do leadership training, to do organizational type stuff, right? What you would typically what you would typically see uh an I.O. psych do, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:34

I was just gonna say, I think you see that gate kept by I.O.s.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

Yeah. And there there are very few CMPCs that get that opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

But it is an opportunity.

Overdiagnosis And Insurance Realities

SPEAKER_01 7:47

I think it's I think I agree with you, right? So like the tact tactical world has definitely the military world, because when I know when we speak tactical, we also include the other high-risk comp other high-risk occupations out there, but the tactical military world has has definitely started to normalize it across the branches. I would agree with you sports-wise, for sure in the MLB. I think that it's maybe growing a little bit in the NFL, but I feel like they're still a bit more, they still hang out more in the licensed area. There might be a couple of teams who've picked up on the value of a CMPC soccer. I've seen basketball and soccer, I've seen them pick up the value. And we're talking stateside, because I would also say like internationally, everybody's like, yeah, duh.

SPEAKER_00 8:36

Yeah, no, the the course we have them on staff. It's also different overseas.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

It is, right?

SPEAKER_00 8:43

And I'm gonna and I'm gonna be straight up. My background, my education, I could be considered a sports psychologist in Europe. Yes, but I can't call myself that in the US because it's legally guarded as a term that you can't use unless you have a very specific uh education and a credential. And like again, it is what it is. I'm not picking up my family and moving to Europe. So I I'm gonna we're uh this is the pressure. We're gonna uh circle around to the the reason this podcast exists, the pressure that non-clinical CMPCs have on themselves to find a place in the field to live a decent living financially, is it it can be a challenge. It can be a challenge, especially if you're hustling a private practice.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

I would agree with you also just because like having stepped into the CMPC world, I would say the amount of CMPCs being turned out, if there isn't some sort of a support or evolution in the industry, right? Like, then we're very quickly going to have what feels like a lot of consultants with no jobs, which I would say we're already starting to see that because I can't tell you how many I've seen just in my short time where I have CMPCs that I went to school with, you know, within the last five years, they've completed their degree and they're looking at going back and adding licensure of some sort, which means more school, which means more, you know, more money. And of course, you know, because again, one of the things that we all love to do is, you know, oh, you went and did this degree. I'm not giving you any credit to this next degree, start all over.

SPEAKER_02 10:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:53

And, you know, I I cannot believe how many of them are saying I have to go get licensure because I can't make a living off of this. And so I I agree with you. There needs to be more conversation. I know you and I have had conversations with different different entities to try and say, like, why can't, you know, why can't a CMPC, why can't a CMPC bill? Like, why couldn't they work with somebody to bill insurance?

SPEAKER_00 11:20

I think what keeps a lot of organizations from putting the full backing of the organization behind it is what people will call extreme caution, you know, limit risk. Limit risk. A non-clinical CMPC is risky. And I have to okay, I have to truly question that.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

I was gonna say, why?

SPEAKER_00 11:49

Exactly. Why? Because we don't diagnose, which brings me to my question to you. Is everything diagnosable? Are we diagnosing too much?

CMPCs Across Sports, Tactical, And Corporate

Paywalls, Sliding Scales, And Access

SPEAKER_01 12:06

Oh, yes, a hundred percent. I mean, there's actually like there are people in my field that are doing, you know, what's called like trying to decolonize and destigmatize, they don't take insurance so that they can support the person without the diagnosis, right? Because we are, there is this huge pendulum swing the other way where we are overdiagnosing. If I, as a licensed clinician, see you and take your insurance, there is a diagnosis attached to why I'm seeing you. Just like every other medical provider you go to that you use insurance for, the insurance is being told that there is some sort of a diagnosis attached to why I saw you. That is the world of insurance, the world of billing, the world of, you know. So to that, if you are going through something hard and you want to get support, which you absolutely should get, right? But let's say what you're going through is hard and recoverable in six months or less, even, and you use your insurance, which you absolutely should do, there was a diagnosis attached to that. That doesn't mean that on the other side, just like if I had a cold, I don't know, if I broke my wrist, I'm not forever diagnosed with a cold. I'm not forever walking around with a broken wrist, like those things heal, and that diagnosis goes away. Right. And so just as much as I can diagnose you and say that you meet criteria, criteria for certain mental health symptoms, you also can walk away and not have that anymore. I'm actually gonna give an example why I think this way and why I we've also seen some of this in some of the posts that we've seen on our social medias. My kiddo, my kiddo, my eight-year-old, right, is first off, tries very hard to express himself and also hates emotions. But recently he came to me and said that he had anxiety, but did it in a way where it was like, I have anxiety, I probably should go on medication, you know, and and this is what I have going on for me, right? And I was like, wow, right. And so it was okay, all right, let's let's talk about that. Let's let me hear you, tell me more. And what he's describing to me absolutely feels anxious. It was also paired with, you know, nerves and it was kind of localized to a situation. But I will tell you, this conversation is not one I've had just in my household with my kid, right? I've experienced this with other kids, teenagers, 20-year-olds, and adults who I don't know if it's the Web MD, I don't know if it's social media, I don't know if it's also just how the only way I get access to care is by accepting a diagnosis. But there is a very much a quick to I felt anxious, therefore I have anxiety, I felt sad, therefore I have depression. In a way that it's they tie themselves to a diagnosis that then ties themselves to a label or an idea of one, which isn't necessary. And it creates it fosters a world where kids, teenagers, people out there living their life very quickly think that I have something wrong with me, it's mental health, I'm not well. In a from a perspective of like unrecoverable not well, right? Does that make sense? Like not like not an isolated human experience, this is hard and this too shall pass, but like almost like a damning something that I'm gonna carry the rest of the day. I got I got the anxiety, right?

SPEAKER_00 16:19

Welcome to welcome to life.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

Have it for life. But I will also very much explain to my clients if we're using a diagnosis, this is why. Right? Can I justify that this is the diagnosis we're using? Absolutely. Will you have it forever? Also, no. There's no reason for you to have it forever. I think it's really important that my clients, regardless of their age, I think it's really important that they know that this is you're gonna have this and that we're gonna get better. Could it come back? Sure. Right? Do my kids get the flu? Have I gotten, you know, have I gotten certain illnesses more than once in my life? Absolutely. Do I still have them once I'm recovered? No. Are there things I can do to mitigate? Yes. I think mental health is the same. And that's where back to mental performance, right? I I'll give a physical example because I think this this is how it relates. Gosh, I'm so passionate about this. I haven't shut up.

SPEAKER_00 17:27

It's great. Keep going.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

I I injured my shoulder and they said I want they immediately were like, we're gonna have surgery, right? Like, we're gonna have, oh my gosh, I'm probably gonna have surgery. Okay, go see an orthopedist. And I went to the orthopedist and they sent me to a physical therapist. And so in this, like immediately it was like, go check out with them. And there's been other times in my life where I've had some sort of physical malady. Oh, my back hurts. Oh, my leg hurts, oh, my shoulder hurts, right? And almost always our brains are like, oh gosh, this could, this could be really bad. And then you go to the doctor and they're like, go to this level first.

SPEAKER_02 18:06

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

Right? Let's let's go to this level first. Let's let's see if we can strengthen it. Let's see what else in your life is maybe contributing, right? Let's go ahead and like lowest, lowest level of what's the word I'm looking for?

SPEAKER_00 18:20

The lowest level of care.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Yeah, like, yeah, like the lowest level of intervention.

SPEAKER_00 18:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

Right. So you go to physical therapy and you deal with it and oh my gosh, it gets better and I'm great. That is where I see like a CMPC, right? Like I think that if, for example, primary care is now trying to embed mental health care. And I think that it would be so great if a primary was like, oh gosh, yeah, you're going through some really hard stuff.

unknown 18:49

Boop.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

Like go over here and talk to a CMPC and get some skills that maybe need evolution, you know, maybe they need evolving, maybe they're missing, maybe they're, you know, not working for this particular situation. I want you to go ahead and go talk to them for some short-term solution focused, you know, skills. And then if that doesn't work, let's evolve to the next step, right? That is how I see this spectrum working. And why we aren't all on board makes me mad.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

So I'll I'll mind I think it's a language thing, right? Because when it the CMPC is by no means mainstream, it is not the fur first thought when it comes to mental health.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

Okay.

Proactive Care And Stepped Pathways

SPEAKER_00 19:39

Why is that? The CMPC is framed around elite. Elite performers, high performers, sports, tactical, elite tactical organizations. It's framed around elite performance. But when you really look at the skills a CMPC utilizes to enhance performance, whether elite or not, it's performance-based. Attention control, stress regulation, emotional control, you know, all of these things that enhance the elite also can enhance someone that may not be diagnosable, but could absolutely use the skills a CMPC can provide. A kid with testing anxiety does not mean he has he or she has generalized anxiety disorder.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Generalized anxiety disorder.

SPEAKER_00 20:47

That individual needs to be taught and educated how to handle stress when taking an exam. Taking a test, studying for a test, an exam. That is a hundred percent in the wheelhouse of a non-clinical CMPC.

SPEAKER_01 21:05

Yeah. Well, so I want to add on too, right? Like something, something else that really gets me going is it's the performance piece, right? Like we are all living in like a performance-heavy world. And I think you make a really good point about what a CMPC is expertly trained in is performance psychology. And while it's being taught through the lens of, like you said, elite sport or really actually just performance, right? Like this is what you see through sports. This is what you see again, a lot of them will cover other general kinds of performances from business to performing arts, you know, and the like, but performance. We're all out here performing, right? Like how I go to work and keep my cool is performance and emotional intelligence. How the kid goes to school and you know, studies or gives the presentation is focus, concentration, performance psychology. Like you you have the skills.

SPEAKER_00 22:19

Yeah. A business a business exec walk about to walk into a board meeting with the two choices flip out on their team or listen with clarity and openness to solve a situation.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

And that comes with emotional regulation and stress reduction, clarity. You if you don't have it, you're 100% gonna walk in that boardroom and flip the hell out.

Performance Skills For Everyday Life

SPEAKER_01 22:45

Right. But that and that's I guess, you know, going back to this performance world, like we don't have to all wait until the point that we get broken to get fixed. Right. And I would actually say that I think I think that there are clinicians that are like I was a clinician first, I came back. To get the CMPC because I wanted well, it was strongly encouraged that it was something that would benefit me to grow in the tactical human performance world. And as somebody who has looked at all of a lot of mental wellness through the lens of like proactive care and also you don't need a full-blown diagnosis, you just need a few skills, right? Like a lot of very intelligent people doing the performance thing every single day. Like we're a lot of us, like we're all really smart out here, right? And sometimes it's just, I don't know what I don't know. One of the biggest differences, which is why I think clinicians are coming for the CMPC certification, is because it's a lot more like solution focused because it is a lot of what we need. A lot of what we're seeing is people just, I need to know how to keep going. I am burned out, but I can't stop, right? I'm a mom and I'm burned out. I'm a professional and I'm burned out. I'm a healthcare worker during COVID. This was a big one. They couldn't stop. They couldn't stop. And so it was trying to figure out how to keep them in the performance and build the capacity within the performance, which was such a blend of mental health and mental performance that I just I think that it would have it would have been great to have had somebody where I'm unpacking the beep or I'm packing, I'm unpacking the boxes, the clinical. I'm, you know, because sometimes we tip too far over into the mental health skills. Absolutely. You fail one too many boardroom meetings, you fail one too many tests, you fail, you know, you get fired from a job, like you have a you, you know, lose a relationship or something like that. You will definitely tip into mental health level work. Absolutely. Right? But then at some point, I might tip you back to the mental performance. You know, we did the heavy lifting, we got the bones all realigned, the surgery, we removed the mass, you know, mentally speaking, like great. Just like the orthopedist says, Okay, please go to physical therapy now for six to eight weeks and strengthen what we did here.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

So it brings me to like my next question, right? So when we look, so you said you think clinicians are going into or obtaining their CNPC for various reasons. One could be to have that solution focused, because it is very solution focused. How can I help you perform better? What's going on? And these are let's identify it so you can come to the solution and we can then talk about ways to enhance your performance. Doing that, and I'm not talking turf war, I'm talking if if we know that that is potentially happening, and we know that clinicians to charge insurance has to tie a diagnosis to it, but they are utilizing performance methods, which I can't bill insurance because I'm performance-based, but we know that that is what is taking place. Why is there no room for a CMPC to come in and provide those services and be able to get some reimbursement for it, right? Because and I'm gonna throw this out there, right? I'm choosing to stay where I'm at because I have uh there's something here and I want to be a part of it. Here's the caveat I have an hourly wage, or yeah, I have an hour, a billable hour is X amount of money. The average salary in Mississippi is$40 something thousand dollars. There are people, families that make more than that and can certainly pay for my full hourly rate. What ASP is telling people is to have a sliding scale to help, be able to help everyone. Yes, while that is good intention, I worked my butt off to be able to charge that hourly rate. And while I want to slide down, I'm not sliding down past a certain amount.

SPEAKER_02 27:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

Because I'm not giving services away. So why are we not talking about ways to truly help those individuals that may not be able to pay cash out of pocket? That is that is if we're looking at proactiveness, the CMPC, the non-clinical CMPC that is choosing to work in an environment where it is very much needed, a community that could very that could benefit tremendously from this.

SPEAKER_02 28:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:32

I'm supposed to refer them to a clinical provider because they can't pay my services. They can't pay for my services, but then the clinical provider in my area doesn't have the experience, the expertise in performance-based work.

Billing Codes Without Mental Diagnoses

SPEAKER_01 28:50

I think you bring up a really good point about going back to what you talked about. You mentioned that, well, I mentioned that the official title is still really new. And I think like you mentioned that it's still something that I think a lot of people don't know. And maybe that's really the bigger conversation here is that it's it's not a widely known, which hearing what you're saying, I feel like the CMPC as it is is not currently being made for the average end user. Right? Because of all the different reasons we just said that it should be, it's currently not built that way. I think everybody has superpowers, but not everybody falls into the level of elite. Right? So it's it's like we're sitting here. So now what we're sitting here talking about is that we're we're creating a career path that is churning out like a massive amount of people.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

Pretty sure every year at the conference they say three, four hundred people. I can't tell you how many applications I reviewed when I was on the review committee. Oh, and like you just mentioned hundreds of CMPCs annually.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

How many people out there can say they're a CMPC getting their CMPC, you know, affiliated with the CMPC or have like the old? I don't know, does anybody still have the old version, the what the CCA? Okay. No, never mind. But like you have this, there's how many people out there that have that? And how big is your actual market before you are doing because like, right? Because here's what I also tell you. We are also in this, I think this goes back to ethics. I think this goes back like the APA, I NASW at this point. I, you know, apparently respectfully nod to both. But a sliding scale is a very typical conversation, I think, in the mental wellness world, that when you go towards whether it's licensure and you're gonna take insurance or whether you're gonna be cash pay or private pay or whatever, there's still a sliding fee conversation. I think one of the things, because like you keep talking about being a knight, you are supposed to charge less than me. Like if you and I are both in Mississippi, are we supposed to be charging different for our services?

SPEAKER_00 31:26

I mean, we the only thing different between you and I, although there's a lot of things, but professionally is you're an LCSW versus I'm just I'm a doctor with a CMBC.

SPEAKER_01 31:44

Right. We've taken a lot of the same classes, we have a lot of the same exposure at this point. Yes. But you you have also you have also taken like you've also taken psychology and mental health courses, right? Like you you have additionally, so that I guess, right?

SPEAKER_00 32:05

Like the difference is the difference between you and I is you have an internship and a practicum in clinical mental health, and I have all the classes, and I decided not to do the sure the clinical route.

SPEAKER_01 32:20

I I can agree with that again, and maybe this is it. Maybe, maybe we're at the beginning of this. We're here and we're passionate because we are surrounded by our colleagues who are not able to make livable wages off of this, you know, very expensive certificate.

SPEAKER_00 32:42

It ain't cheap.

Teaming With OTs And H2F Lessons

SPEAKER_01 32:44

I love that it was, I wanted it because I wanted to be able to, I wanted to be able to live more in this space of, like I said, proactive, integrative. I've always seen from that mentality. I went and I went into my master's program solely with the view of, I don't know why we have to wait so long to take care of some. Like I don't know why we have to wait until they're broken to take care of them. Right. I've always wanted to, I always wanted to serve in a space where I could integrate with the person and help them strengthen their performance and their well-being so that they could take the mental hits longer and come out on the other side better. So the CMPC was something that I wanted to that people would take me seriously in that vein. Because for some for me, the clinician title was like hampering that, right? Because I'd be a clinician and be like, great, please go take care of these individuals over here and we'll send them to you as they break, right? And like speaking in general terms. It's like I don't I want to wait.

SPEAKER_00 33:53

Well, I think you I think you're now talking about the the big difference between a social worker and a psychologist, a social worker and an LPC. Social work is more proactive in in my me understanding social work versus you know clinical mental health or clinical psychology.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:21

Social work is very proactive in nature. When we look at when we look at the spectrum, right? If we talk in spectrum, you have psychiatrists on one end, and we'll say it, you have C M P C on the other. A non-clinical CMPC is on the other side. And you have every every person, every professional in the mental health ring, in the mental health field, to include addiction and drug uh individuals. You fall within that spectrum somewhere. And I think when you look at the social worker, they are probably very close, very, very close to the proactive side of mental health versus the other ones.

SPEAKER_01 35:11

Well, I mean, we're it's interesting. That is you bring up such a good point. I guess in my mind, I think in my mind, there's a part of me that just puts us in the same category. I think we're all going for the same thing, but you're right that we're not. If we're, you know, I think it is fair to split hairs a little bit because the LCSW, the LCSW's like training philosophy is person and environment and advocacy, which an LPC would be rooted in psychotherapy.

SPEAKER_00 35:47

I mean, you have social workers show up to people's houses and are talking to families on the couch. Whether whether court mandated, pro at like they're there to be that frontline individual in the care of whoever.

SPEAKER_01 36:09

Yeah. I mean, the yeah, the philosophical, like the the training upbringing, right, is what is happening inside and outside and around the person from an LCSW perspective, which even if I take away the C straight out of my MSW, it's that. And there are MSWs and you know, there's other acronyms like different levels. Some people never reach the clinical and stay within the mental skills building space. That is such an interesting perspective that feels like very much like a light bulb. I guess then my question, right, is why gatekeep? Why why block the CMPC from helping? It would make sense. Like yours, I mean, from that perspective, the CMPC would fill like a huge gap prior to reaching an LPC or a psychologist or a psychiatrist.

SPEAKER_00 37:05

Well, yes, absolutely. If COVID has taught us anything about body immunity, mental health, there has, I believe there has been a shift in a holistic holistic way of taking care of the human being.

SPEAKER_02 37:28

Yeah.

Culture Change And Data We Need

SPEAKER_00 37:29

And the CMPC, then I'm gonna say the non-clinical CMPC, because yes, there are clinicians that have the CMPC, but the non-clinical CMPC fills a void, but also fills an area where if we truly are gonna look at mental health from being a proactive to ensure to potentially scave off crisis, yeah, and mental health diagnoses. Yes, the C the non-clinical CMPC fills that role a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_01 38:09

Let me ask you this what in your like difference between CMPC and ICF lifepage?

SPEAKER_00 38:18

I spent thousands of dollars for an education.

SPEAKER_01 38:22

Okay, but break it down for the end user, right?

SPEAKER_00 38:25

I mean that's the that's the easiest answer.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

I agree with you. I have I agree.

SPEAKER_00 38:30

I have and I'll even throw health and wellness coaches into the mix, too. A the biggest difference between a CMPC and a life coach, a health and wellness coach, and I know there are programs out there that can teach. I believe back in the day there were college programs that would teach you health and wellness, and you could get your certification because I'm pretty sure that we we know two individuals in that that did that as well.

SPEAKER_02 39:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

I have four years of education in behavior change versus ten weeks of taking a class for life coach, three months of you know a a certification program for ICF. The biggest thing and the most similar thing between that all of that is behavior change. The language changes based on the environment that you work in. I have uh four years of uh education like education and behavior change versus a certification course. And I I they can come in and be like, Well, you chose that route. What what an idiot. Look at you now. That's fair. Fair what are we doing? I live in a community with several life coaches who are very successful. And I feel like they are threatened by me being in the community now because I could I can do exactly what they do, potentially even better. And I'm not tootin' my horn. I'm saying from uh experience education certification I can do exactly what they do.

Where Change Starts And Who Leads

SPEAKER_01 40:34

I think, you know, if if there's one thing that I I think one thing that I want to kind of harp on for a second, because I have worked with I have worked with people and they're they're wonderful experts in their field from yoga and breath work to life coaches to musical therapists, music therapists, art therapists. Here's what I'm gonna say about a lot of what I have noticed, and not necessarily I don't want to point to their skill set. What I want to point to is there's a there's some education and training that happens in the route of the CMPC, the LPC, the LCSW that goes back to ethics. Not only ethics, but I would also say emotional intelligence, accountability. Now, don't get me wrong, it doesn't hit everyone. Yep, right? You will still have people, we hear about them all the time. Unfortunately, there will still be there will still be bad apples out there that have that earned their clip like their license. And I'm so sorry to those of you who've experienced that. But the one thing that has stood out to me, and it, you know, is these these life coaches, health and wellness coaches, nutrition coach, something ex coach or a therapist that didn't require a clinical license training. Not that you didn't go get the license, but that you were exposed to the licensure training is the ethics and the accountability piece that treat trains us to know where the line is, right? That trains us to know, you know, for you, like because as a CNPC, as I went through that training, it was constantly, you know, discussed about where the line is. That's out of your lane, right? This is in your lane, that's out of your lane. This requires, you know, a referral, a diagnosis, you don't treat that. This you can't. And then also, like you said, behavior change, some of those skill sets, how to protect ourselves, how we can keep going, how we can work and treat the hard and stay involved in that. That a lot of that is missing from these other fields. And so what ends up happening too is these people that are out there who they have the life experience, they have the passion. I love that for them. But without the training, it can be unstable and it can be dangerous for themselves and for the client. Right. And so I I think that's something else, you know, kind of going back to what we're talking about, like, you know, trying to normalize getting the CMPC out there. Um you have that, you have that. Having gone through that training, the ethics abounds and the accountability abounds, and the, you know, self-awareness abounds.

SPEAKER_00 43:47

I'll be honest, I don't put a life coach on the spectr. If we're looking at that spectrum I described, I don't even put the life coach on it. They're not on it. They're not. They have sure, they have a place, but I'm not I'm not talking someone's finances. I'm not doing it. That's that's not my wheelhouse. And yes, financial stuff can stress people out. But I can assure you, you don't want me talking finance with you. But a lot that a lot of a lot of life coaches, a lot of executive coaches can handle that.

SPEAKER_01 44:29

Sure. That and that's that's niche.

SPEAKER_00 44:32

A former CEO of an organization wants to go into life coaching, and their staple is helping someone through financial struggles or financial planning and life. Hey, by all means, to me, that's not that's not mental health.

SPEAKER_02 44:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:55

So when I look at a the spectrum, I don't even put a life coach or an executive Coach on that. I don't those that I think that you're not on the spectrum.

Networking, Career Paths, And Next Steps

SPEAKER_01 45:07

I think that makes sense because you're kind of speaking to, you know, like if my son plays baseball and I hired a pitching coach, you know, if I hired a running coach, I I kind of think I agree with you. And I think that those are people who, you know, are experts in their field for whatever reason. And you know, I'm hiring them to train a skill. I wanted to, you know, circle back. I I think the CMPC is going to evolve into mainstream. I do think that that's gonna happen. I think that and I think it's a really great point to advocate for to be able to, like we like we're talking about, like normalize the use of a CMPC in primary care or in a physical therapist's office, or you know, at a a school outside of the athletics. I think that there is plenty of reason to bring them on board for you know insurance billing. I think that they can benefit from their specific codes that are based on health behavior assessment, you know, intervention, these kinds of things. And they it's it's back to conversations we've had. Like if you are recovering from an injury, you qualify to use those interventions on that person for mental interventions.

SPEAKER_00 46:38

So so what you're saying, I'm gonna lean in to make sure everybody hears it. There are already codes in place that don't require a diagnosis to use.

SPEAKER_01 46:53

They require so they require a medical diagnosis, not a mental health diagnosis. So, but what's what's interesting, right, is they can't they can't be used for mental health diagnoses. So they wouldn't be used for anxiety, depression, PTSC. But they can be used for physical health and behavior interaction, pain management, stress that's affecting a medical condition. So, like again, stress affecting recovery from an injury, a lifestyle modification, an adherence behavior. And again, there are so many medical diagnoses out there.

SPEAKER_00 47:37

Yeah, I mean, you you I work, I have worked with people in changing sleep behaviors.

SPEAKER_01 47:48

Yeah, perfect. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 47:50

I'm not diagnosing them with insomnia. If I get to that, I know how to diagnose insomnia. Let me process that. I know how to, I know the requirements for insomnia. And if I'm going through the process of helping an individual, and I come across someone that has what I see that may be insomnia, it is my job to refer. We can still work together, but I would encourage you to go here. Here's this person. I'm basically giving them a referral on a silver platter.

Velvet Bricks And Open Invitations

SPEAKER_01 48:35

But again, you're talking about a treatment trifecta, because even as you're doing that referral, you still could have a very valuable role in that person's that person's treatment plan.

SPEAKER_00 48:49

Yes, a hundred percent. I you when you again, there was a really great post on LinkedIn this morning where it was talking about overdiagnosing, but there needs to be the the early detection and less leaning on, you know, the diagnosis, right? And yes, that individual is right in stating that. Me coming in from a performance lens, and I think it was geared, the the post was geared specifically towards, you know, environment, phone, normal, natural distress based on what the environment, that individual's environment is. A CMPC, non-clinical CMPC, can come in, provide the performance skills, provide the skills to the adolescent, the stress regulation, the attentional control, the routine. They can provide that early detection, that proactive care. While educating the parent on establishing a good environment for the the adolescent, for the family to work in. There's no diagnosis there.

SPEAKER_02 50:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:15

And if, and again, there is a place for clinical work, and if that is not working and it becomes distressed, persistent distress, where it impairs the well-being of the individual, the handoff is there. Yeah, I mean with with the caveat now, there needs to be a back and forth between the CMPC, the non-clinical CMPC, and the clinical provider, because who has the greater relationship with the person? The CMPC. What we also see is CMPCs will pass off to a clinical provider and never see them again.

SPEAKER_02 51:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:09

In particular, a clinical provider who may also be a sports and psychology professional. But again, and now we lose a client.

SPEAKER_01 51:21

I think uh so it's interesting, right? Because I think some of what you're bringing up, I will just say that, and I saw I thought this as I was going through the CMPC training, there are definitely differences because there are boundaries, right, that the CMPC has, which I think makes them an asset in those, because they are there to strengthen that skill set. But as we're sitting here talking about the LPC or the psychologist who's going to be going through very similar training and then some, right? It then means that, and and a lot of us are being a lot of us have been trained that way. I think even myself as an LCSW, I would say that I was trained that way. I think that we have been trained that way, and then the mental health crisis, if you will, that we've experienced over the last 10, 15 years has also positioned us clinicians in a way where we're taking it all on. I think that going back to kind of saying the CMT state is still new, I'm gonna give a little bit of the benefit of the doubt. I I I know that this isn't entirely true, but I think to some of us, when I have somebody come to me and I'm working with them, I can do, I'm trained to do all of it. And up until a very short time ago, I wouldn't have been told anything else existed, right? I wouldn't have been told that there was somebody else who would strengthen it. It was actually, I think only, I want to say I only saw this, I think around 2020, there were a couple of those platforms that there was one in particular, I think it was called Cerebral. I know Better helped us a little bit of this, but these platforms, these big massive platforms that were like, come work with us. They would do, there were some of them where when you would get in, you would be assessed by a clinician and referred to a coach. And it was, and it was one of these where you know it would suck in clinicians because clinicians would be like, oh my gosh, I'll get paid to do that and not have all the client contact because it does, it is a really great system. I but that does exist out there. I am taught to do all of it. I really am. I am taught to look at the person and talk to them about, you know, what the sticking points are for themselves inside and around their environment. LPCs, I think, if they're going through a very similar, like if they're being taught a lot of the same theories that you are, but through the lens of psychotherapy, then they're out there thinking that they can do the whole thing too. And so then they take the client, the clin, the client, and they're not thinking about sending them back to you. Because that's also just doesn't exist in the mental health world. There isn't, I'll take them and do this and send them back. There's not enough of it, anyways.

SPEAKER_00 54:30

So where do we start to make the change? That's we we talked about all of the the this is what's happening. This where does the change start? Because I I know I'm not the only non-clinical CMPC that feels this way. Yeah, I'm probably the most outspoken, but I know I am not the only one that feels this way. So how do we start to make change? Because I'll also say it the governing body ain't doing it. Yeah, they're not doing it. Why do you think that is when we've talked to them? I know we have we have talked to them and we have heard nothing since.

SPEAKER_01 55:25

But do you think that's because I guess I just want to go back. Do you think that's because of these like narrow-minded elite? We only we were built to serve this group of people, so we don't uh we don't expand on that.

SPEAKER_00 55:46

Who knows? I think when you when you look at the field of sport, sports, so it started out sports and exercise psychology. Right? If we go all the way back, exercise, health, wellness, psychology, sport and performance psychology. Then we are looking to add in the clinical language into the constitution, into the bylaws. And the older hats got a problem with that. I sat in the business meeting that year. They had a huge problem with that because we're starting to are we starting to lose sight of the origin of ASP from a exercise, health, wellness, sport, non-clinical lens. Because when we do, and I again I'm not opposed to the clinical providers coming in and being a part and getting their CMPC.

SPEAKER_02 56:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:52

But when we look at ASP, ASP is performance. If you want clinical, go to the APA. Go to the ACA. Go to whatever your whatever your social worker group is. That's where you fill your clinical cup. ASP has always been performance. And yes, you can't ignore the clinical piece because it does shape performance to an extent. But we've also seen conferences that are just so much clinical, and it's like, I can't do anything with that.

SPEAKER_01 57:39

I'm gonna stretch what you said a little bit further, right? Because you're saying ASP is focused on performance. But if we really break down ASP, it's the Association for Applied Sport Psychology, I would just stop at applied, right? Forget performance. And because if you do that, then applied means behavior, right? And behavior, I circle back to the behavior interventions. I think on some level, I thought that the CMPC did have access to billing or would be able to work alongside that because having worked in different fields or different offices, like a behavior technician, for example, right? Like, what's the difference? I'll give you an example. You mentioned sleep. Let's say I have a client who comes to me, they have chronic migraines that are they've been cleared medically, right? They still have the diagnosis of chronic migraines, but they've been cleared medically, basically saying it's stress-induced. Now, they're going to be told to go see a therapist. And this is this is the space that I would love to advocate in. And again, like you said, I don't know. And we've started having those conversations and we've been pushing into these different places to make somebody listen, but to run with this idea, you know, they refer to me, they're, you know, like, ah, I have headaches. I've been told it's all in my head, right? Like, I'm, you know, what's cool about referring to you is that if you have the ability for a person who has a chronic migraine, a medical diagnosis of a chronic migraine, they can come to you and they and you could have a behavioral intervention that targets stress trigger management. That is something totally within your wheelhouse. Or, like you said, somebody who's been diagnosed with insomnia then works with you on sleep hygiene or behavioral interventions targeting sleep hygiene, sleep behavior, sleep modification, right? Now we've spoken, we've discussed several different clients that everything you're doing with them is absolutely billable. So I agree with you. How do we start that conversation? Because, and I mean, I know we've started it, and I think maybe, you know, why are we sitting here talking about this? I think that it's to try and continue to push that conversation.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:12

The the conver the conversation again, the conversation is just started. Like even the individuals in some of my posts yesterday, oh, the conversation's already been had.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:24

When by who?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:26

When and who?

unknown 1:00:28

How?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:29

Oh, well, the the you know, the the the higher above us. What when? When? Yeah, you know, and I'm and I'm not poo-pooing on them. That's how they feel. That's how they feel, and it absolutely feels like there has already been a higher level conversation in the field looks like it is moving into the dual accredited pathway of licensure and CMPC. Now, here's here's the caveat. You're still churning out non-clinical CMPCs like it's candy. With no clear pathway to anything. The the military has jobs, yes. Major league baseball has jobs, yes. There's several universities that hire non-clinical C N PCs. If you're out there, I'd love to talk to you because we need to talk about the data you're collecting to show the low risk you're actually taking on to debug that, right? But also to show how a clinician and a non-clinical C NPC can work together. Yeah, I mean, I think that's because it's already being done in military settings, it's already being done in Major League Baseball. There's many clubhouses that have a mental performance team and a clinical team. And they are they work together, but they are separate.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:09

I think it's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:10

So why is NCAA different?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:14

I mean, I think you bring up a really good point about the exposure we've had working in the tactical space that I'm gonna kind of you know call out the military as like some of the pioneers here about the the value of the team. I mean, H2F really pilots a program, you know, that shows the value of the CMPC, shows the value of, you know, because they're really integrating. There's an OT, an occupational therapist that exists on the H2F team. And so I feel like, you know, when we talk a lot about the people who are using the codes that I briefly mentioned, it would be an occupational therapist, you know, who would say, oh, this is, you know, this is what we're treating, this is the medical diagnosis we're treating. Here's the behavioral interventions that we're doing. And so I'd be so curious to hear from, you know, more of like the H2F world for the cognitive people and the occupational therapists that are working in those teams to maybe hear their perspective. Maybe a big thing that we're doing here is having a conversation that isn't being had enough. You know, somebody saying that the comment, the the conversation has been had, I think that's also just what we're being told.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:41

Well, I think you bring up a I think the H2F is a very interesting topic because you have the occupational therapist. And if anybody knows me, they know my feelings around occupational therapy.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:00

I know.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:00

I almost hesitated to say and and it's and it's not and it's not a bad thing, right? Because the dynamic between an occupational therapist and a CPS is very unique because occupational therapy has such a breadth of possible treatments they can provide, skills that they can provide. I worked under three occupational therapists in my time as a CPS and H2F. The first one basically wrote the mental readiness piece in the FM7-22 or whatever the hell it's called. Me coming in, I read that because he asked me to read it because he was wondering if it made sense. And I was like, hey brother, you just wrote that. I hope it makes sense. It's published. But I did it from a I did it, I and he was one of my favorite OTs to work with. But he was a hand specialist. Second OT could do a little bit of everything. The third OT was a hundred percent TBI and concussion. That man knew how to handle TBI concussion treatment like I knew cognitive performance. I was like, damn.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:28

So let me ask you this. So let's so running with that, right? You have a client, a tactical athlete, if you will, who sustains a concussion. How do the two of you work together?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:43

I know how I could. Okay, tell me that. I never did.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:48

Give us an but I want to I want to kind of like illustrate, right? Like how, because I know we haven't said that, and I want to give a couple of like illustrations. How does this relationship work?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:00

There was a really unique post that came across my Instagram a couple days ago, and I'll shout it out. Thanks, Gallagher Project, for posting that another great nonprofit helping vets transition out of the military. He posted it right from another from another source. It was based around why concussions or TBIs are treated more like mental health than physical, than physical.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:46

Yeah, the physical injury causes physical mental symptoms.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:51

Exactly. Yeah, but it's not the source of the injury is physical. There was physical trauma. That led to mental health related issues. Is it clinical? Is it performance-based? You know, it depends on, I think it depends on the severity. If I did find myself working with someone from a con with a concussion or TBI, it was more for like stress regulation and breathing. Relax. Okay. Find ways to stay calm. Not composed. Calm.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:42

Okay. So what I'm hearing, right, is they're an athlete, let's say they've been working with you, they sustain a concussion. They would we would move them to the OT for like a bit level of a higher level care. But then let's say they're transisting, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:04

You know, cognitive type functioning games or activity. I don't want to call them games, activities. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:11

Yeah, neuro, neuro rehab.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:13

Yes. Neuro rehab. Neuro rehab. That's you're recovering neurologically.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:20

They bump, they they bump over to the OT to focus on like the actual recovery pieces. And then as they start graduating from the recovery pieces, they start integrating back in with you, right? To do to adjust the mental performance skills to get back to the performance.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:45

Self-talk, right? What if it happens again? Yeah, it could. You jump out of airplanes, brother.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:50

Fear avoidance, fear avoidance behavior. Yeah, fear avoidance behavior. Or also, I'm even, I guess I would also speak to if there are any, we'll call them deficits or new pathways, right? Like my brain does this now. How do I build a new workaround strategy? Like when it comes to performance. I really like having this conversation. And again, I do think that it would be really cool to talk to different teams that do this because I think that it would be really great, you know, to continue to expose the value of the CMPC. I do think that the field is going to grow. I do. I think because we're not getting away from we're not going to get away from the mental health situation. We're just not. We're not going to get away from insurance. We're not. And I think that actually could pose a benefit to advocating for you know the use of a CMPC in a psychologist's office and LCSW's office. You know, really any sort of office that has a mental health provider that is then able to somehow. I don't know, there's gotta be a way, but to advocate for the use of these kinds of bills that maybe then starts to carve out more of a sustainable career path for CMTCs. You know, because yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:25

I think I think you you also brought up not to they continue to move the conversation forward, but you also brought up, you know, the mental health crisis that has been slow like incline uh jumped through the roof during COVID, and maybe it's declining a little bit now, maybe it's now shit's on fire, it's back right now. When we look at when we again when we look at it, right, I could probably go into the average clinic and offload individuals from your books or their books because they're in that, you know, natural distress after I don't want to say a simple life event because everyone is different and everything is not simple, but I can't because they're relying on insurance to pay for that service.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:27

Yeah. I'm hoping again, like I said, I'm hoping to push the conversation forward. My goal is to, you know, continue to try and have this conversation with clinicians and to expose and advocate for paths that exist, whether it's you know billing under or whether it's you know working in that space of collaborative private pay, you know, coaching sessions, different pathways. I do think that that exists. I think it has to. I think that we're just still, you know, still within the first two decades of this role. And I think the growing pains of it's not just sports people that need performance psychology.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:21

I mean, that's it's no different in looking at these human performance teams in the military environment. Potif being the longest tenured contract, it's the their success didn't happen overnight.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:40

No, and it's still not 20 years old.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:43

Right. And H2F is pumping out data and research like I've never seen before.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:55

But you're a you're asking a very large conventional force change culture overnight, whether it be around PT, whether it be around sleep, whether it be around per mental performance, nutrition. You're uh like you're asking a very large force to make a culture change like that. And it ain't happening. It is starting to happen, right? We're seeing very good stuff coming out of H2F, and I'm I'm I'm I'm coming for you, Honor. I'm getting it scheduled, yo. We gotta talk about it. These but it's also how these programs alleviate pressure from individuals. We're we're start we're we are truly starting to see it, and it the the conversation needs to continue to happen. And it will I I do think it will, and it it's not again, this isn't gonna happen overnight, and I don't expect it to, but no, but I I the conversation has to start, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:04

Well, I think keep going, right? Don't stop is I think the bigger conversation, like and yes, culturally, like you mentioned, I think the military is modeling something. As you just said though, they're both still new. They're still new, and then in the greater from like zooming out even a little bit further, you're asking our generation, like the generation, you know, bell curve, plus or minus, you know, to also accept and normalize mental skills being worked on for the everyday tasks, right? For the everyday hardships. You're asking all of us, be and it's it's definitely being modeled in the military. And the military is finding, hey, this actually weird. This works really well. And it's slowly expanding into athletics. What? Wait, are you guys handling life a little bit better? That's so weird. That hopefully it can, you know, hopefully it can start bleeding over into athletics. I would love to see CM PCs in the collegiate space beyond the athletics department. I work a lot with, I work a lot with college-age kids that really just need somebody to help them in that like transition from kid to adult. You know, and I think that if we just really start normalizing, you know, and advocating the existence of this model, it'll it's it's gonna gain weight. I think in the long run, your CMPC will hold more value than the ICF stateside.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:03

Um I think you're I think you're on point with that assessment. I hope the individuals that are considering bouncing from the field hang on for a little bit. Yeah, and I'm gonna encourage at the same time, do what you need to do.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:23

And make the clear decision based on what you have you need to do for you. Uh hang in there.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:31

Well, so to that, right, I would say a couple of things. One, I think if you're in a CMPC and you don't know what to do, I would say network, try and maybe network with providers. I challenge providers to be open to, you know, cross-collaboration, right? Coaching classes, coaching packages, interdisciplinary work, if you will. I think that there's a way there. I a hundred percent believe that there's a way there. I would say if you're a CMPC, if you're at the beginning and you're in school and you can pack a punch in your degree and add the licensure. I don't think you lose by doing that. I think it, you know, creates options for you. Because also, like what, you know, some of us have such an idea of what we're gonna do when we go to school to get that degree, and then the rest of us that are 20 years later down the road are sometimes, you know, several pathways removed from the original pathway. So I think if you're thinking about getting a CMPC, you figure out why. And it the first answer shouldn't be a return on your investment. I think that if you're a CNPC in the field, I encourage you to network with providers. And if LPCs aren't doing it for you, come find the LCSWs.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:08

Because we see the person in their environment. Um yeah, and then I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:15

You don't lead, you guys don't, I don't say it, you don't lead with ego.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:19

I mean, I hope not all of us. You and LPCs knock it off.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:25

Yeah, like you have a lot of the pushback I get are from the LPCs and the psychologists. But who's over there in the comments and the likes? It's the social workers. The social workers are live.

unknown 1:18:40

Woohoo!

SPEAKER_00 1:18:41

We love it. Yeah, yeah. If you're having a hard and I'm follow that up. Yes, if you're a non-clinical CMPC and you're looking to network with a a clinical provider, I would encourage you to seek out a social worker. And I if you have connections with the LPCs in the licensed psychologist, go for it.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:00

Well, man, a social worker that I'm sure, and I'm not saying it because you're my you're you're we're co-hosts and we're close colleagues.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:08

Okay. I know I'm awesome. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:13

Go go find a social worker.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:15

I encourage the you non the non-clinical CMPCs, I encourage you to, you know, get out there, network with some providers in your area, join, see if you can join Facebook pages and be able to offer your expertise. Again, I think about as providers, like I benefit from knowing an equine therapist and an art therapist and a music therapist. And I would say branch out, reach out to you know your private practice world and let them know what you have to offer. I think there's a networking opportunity there to do group classes and things like that. So I for sure encourage you to do that and then you know, stick around with us here as we continue to push for that conversation to be had.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:01

The the field is growing and it will continue to grow.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:05

Yeah, I hope so. Well, especially with our loud mouths out here.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:09

Sometimes it gets us in trouble, but that's okay. Because sometimes people don't like the truth. Yeah, we don't want to hear the truth. Listen and velvet bricks. Yeah, let's go back to episode one intro.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:23

Like they're just they're just velvet bricks. Yeah. If you would just do as we ask, I will stop throwing them.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:35

Invite us to the table. We can close with this. Everybody talks about there's always a seat at the table until it's time to have it and the seat's not there. But you know where there's always a seat? Right here.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:54

Right here.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:55

Right here. You want to talk? You got something to say? Pull up a chair. We'll have a conversation.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:03

Let's have that conversation.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:06

And I won't hurt you. I won't hurt you, I promise.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:10

That's really nice of you. I throw the velvet bricks.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:13

Yeah, she'll throw the velvet bricks. I'll just look at you like, are you serious? All right.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:19

But we say it with love for this field. And I mean, hey, listen, Matt, I appreciated I appreciated the spice that happened here today.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:30

Spice is needed. And we told you in the beginning, we're not talking fluff.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:36

No, like, no. Yeah, to the comments, everybody. I you know, until next time. As always, thanks for sitting with us.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:46

Yes. Until next time.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:48

Yeah. Talk to you later.