Tom Blackledge — Fear, Identity & the Fighter Mindset | Stoicism, Martial Arts & Unlocking Human Potential

Former professional MMA fighter and author of Fearless by Design shares lessons on stoicism, identity, resilience, and the psychology of performance.

What happens when you reach the top of the mountain… and realise it’s not what you thought it would be?

In this episode of Unlocking Human Potential, Andy sits down with former professional MMA fighter, martial artist, and author Tom Blackledge to explore the deeper psychology behind performance, fear, identity, and personal growth.

Tom competed at the highest levels of mixed martial arts, including the UFC and the legendary Wolfslair era of British MMA. But his journey didn’t end when the fighting stopped.

Instead, it became something deeper.

Through coaching, mentoring, and his book Fearless by Design, Tom now helps athletes, leaders, and everyday performers develop mental strength, self-awareness, and the courage to grow through adversity.

In this powerful conversation, we explore:

• why curiosity is the foundation of growth
 • the difference between ego identity and true purpose
 • how stoic philosophy shapes resilience
 • why hardship often becomes the greatest teacher
 • how martial arts builds character and perspective

Tom shares what the fight game taught him about fear, discipline, identity, and becoming the person you are capable of being.

If you are a leader, athlete, entrepreneur, or someone navigating personal growth, this episode will challenge how you think about performance and purpose.

Toms Book: Fearless By Design – How to overcome fear, removes anxiety and create the life your desire.

https://www.tomblackledge.com/

https://www.fighterblueprintacademy.com/

About Tom 

Some people talk about resilience. Others earn it one hard lesson at a time.

 Today’s guest is Tom Blackledge, a former professional mixed martial artist who competed on some of the biggest stages in the sport, including the UFC, and trained as part of the legendary Wolfslair team during the rise of British MMA. But Tom’s story didn’t end when the fighting stopped.

 In recent years, Tom has channelled everything he learned from the intensity of the fight game discipline, resilience, pressure and self-belief into coaching, mentoring and writing. 

 He’s the author of a powerful book: Fearless By Design – How to overcome fear, removes anxiety and create the life your desire.

 The book explores the deeper mindset behind performance, sharing the lessons that fighting taught him about identity, growth and what it really takes to keep moving forward when life gets tough.

Through his work with Fighter Blueprint Academy and his speaking, Tom now helps fighters, athletes and everyday high performers develop the mental strength and clarity required to perform under pressure and stay true to who they are.

So today we’re going to explore the mindset behind the fighter the psychology of resilience, the lessons behind Tom’s book, and what the fight game can teach all of us about unlocking human potential.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:11

Welcome to Unlocking Human Potential with me, Andy Hosgood, a show dedicated to exploring what it really takes psychologically, behaviourally and practically to help humans thrive through conversations with leaders, founders, coaches, behavioural experts, and people shaping how humans perform and grow. Is this for you? But if you're a leader, a founder, a business owner, or an ambitious professional who wants to do more than just perform, they want to grow, inspire, and bring the best out in themselves and their people, then keep listening because the mission is simple to explore how individuals and teams unlock potential in themselves, in others and the organisations they shape. Every episode is a deep but relaxed conversation built around three core questions. How do you optimise yourself? How do you unlock potential in others? And the best advice for you, the listener. Now, over to the episode. Really hope you find it helpful and insightful. Tom, thank you very much for joining us today. So, Tom, some people talk about resilience, others earn it one hard lesson at a time. So, today's guest, Tom Blatledge, a former professional mixed martial artist who competed on some of the biggest stages in the sport, including the UFC, and trained as part of the legendary Wolfslayer team during the rise of British MMA. But Tom's story didn't end with when fighting stopped. In recent years, Tom has channelled everything he learned from the intensity of the fight game, discipline, resilience, pressure, self-belief into coaching, mentoring, and writing. He's the author of this powerful book, Fearless by Design, How to Overcome Fear, Remove Anxiety, and Create the Life You Desire. The book explores the deep mindset behind performance, sharing the lessons that fighting taught him about identity, growth and what it takes to move forward when life gets tough. Through his work with, and we're here in the Fight Blueprint Academy, and his speaking, Tom now helps fight his athletes and everyday performers. Develop the mental strength, clarity required to perform under pressure and stay true to who they are. So I'm looking forward to today as we explore the mindset behind the fighter, the psychology of resilience, and the lessons behind Tom's book and what the fight game can teach us all about unlocking human potential. So, Tom, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_03 2:38

Thank you for having me, mate. My pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 2:45

That when we were putting this podcast together, there was people who I really, really had admired about, I'd followed on Instagram, I'd followed through, you know, a lot of things, and it was about how do we bring unlocking human potential from a 360 view, you know, from a business perspective, but also who were who were people that were sharing things. And I had a list of 10 people that were going, do you know what? And you were actually on the first 10. So this is a real privilege today.

SPEAKER_03 3:20

That's lovely to hear, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 3:21

And um, and so the fact that when I was out walking and we were talking how the podcast was going, and someone said, Oh, who do you want on it? And they were giving me names, and I went, No, I don't think they would suit what I'm trying to create. And your name came up, I went, Well, funnily enough, he's on my dream list, and I said, But I can't just send them a message. And the fact that you know, a friend of mine, Matt, reached out to Scott, and then Scott reached out to you, and he came back and going, Yes, I was like, Oh, holy moly, this is like a real good. So, yeah, so generally privilege. So, thank you very much for your time today. It's my pleasure, mate. My pleasure. Thanks very much. So, one of the things we always kind of start this podcast with is a curiosity seems to run through an awful lot of the stuff that we do. So, I'm curious. What is it that you're curious about right now?

SPEAKER_03 4:13

Do you know what I think I'm always curious about everything? I always uh adopt the Socratic phrase of I know nothing. And I always try and keep that in the forefront of my of my thoughts, in that I know nothing, and so I always try to keep learning consistently and constantly, and um and always hold that curiosity. I think it's important, the world's a marvellous place, isn't it? Yeah, as long as your perspective allows it so. And I think uh it's important to keep being curious and to think of how wonderful so many things are that you'll want to try and see more things and learn more things. So I would say I'm always curious about everything, and even like martial arts and development, you know, these are things that I've been involved in, you know, martial arts literally all my life, and uh development is a massive part of martial arts which people miss. Um you know, I think I think that's probably uh what I I still remain curious on all of them things, even though I've lived that life, I still remain curious on them all.

SPEAKER_02 5:25

And it's I think it's a really powerful thing for adults to say because it's something that I think, and I know you're a parent, I'm a parent, and it's you know, it's interesting, isn't it, that as kids we're naturally curious, and I think sometimes it's almost due to whatever background we're from. Sometimes curiosity is a bad thing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 5:47

Well, I think the problem for me, so when I was in school, uh my wife and I speak about this a lot, right? That uh I'm an avid reader, I I love reading, I love knowledge, and I always have been, and I have a really high uh expectation of myself to read and study a lot. Okay. In school, I wasn't the best kid. I I it weren't that I was really uh badly behaved, but I was curious. Okay. And so when if you tell me like go and I don't know, go and uh learn history, right? And if I if I if I go off to learn learn history, if you said to me go and learn history, and I'm like, for what? You say because there's an exam coming up in two years' time, and you don't have to learn for it. Well I'm not interested, but if you tell me learn history because history repeats, there's this thing called the fourth, do you know what the fourth turning is?

SPEAKER_02 6:45

I'm familiar, but it'd be good to share.

SPEAKER_03 6:46

And and so the fourth turning is like that that life is consistently in cycles of about 10 to 20 years, okay, and it just repeats, it's just certain things change a little bit, but you're always gonna find that in 10 to 20 years it's gonna change. Like currently now we're in the fourth turning, okay, which is the new world order. Yeah so a hundred years ago we got the new world order, which was America became the ultimate power, right? Uh now we're in a ship a time of shifting. So we're it we're literally in the fourth turning right now. If you'd have told me that in school and said, you know what, if you learn the past, you'll know the future and you'll be able to see patterns in the future. Well, show me all that history then. Yeah, yeah. Because that's a powerful tool. Yeah. But because I asked that question and say, Why am I learning that? Then I get shoved aside.

SPEAKER_02 7:35

Yeah, that's right, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:36

Because unfortunately, the people teaching it a lot of the time don't know this either, they just do it because that's become their job to become this uh this teacher because they didn't know what else to do. But if you can tell me why and you have that curiosity and you know why, it's like it's like martial arts is the best example of it. Why are you are we doing this drill? Why are we practicing this move? And what does it serve us? Those questions, why? And that's like I say about the Socratic question. It's like why, if you can keep asking these questions, why in development, in business, and whatever it is, it's always going to lead to much better, more positive outcomes.

SPEAKER_02 8:13

That's an awesome response to that. But it is, and I think, and I and and I really encourage people listening to maybe even just stop and rewind and listen to that again, because I think there's there's a lot in what you've just said there, isn't there? And I think that there are a lot of leaders that have almost in my experience have almost come to the point where they've achieved stuff and they all are not taking the time to stop and continue to learn.

SPEAKER_03 8:42

Yeah, for sure. I think well it's the same with like I'm obviously going to use martial arts as the anchor because it appeals to us all, like you probably everyone who's watching this, and I'll never stop trying to learn bits of martial arts. I understand that ultimately uh learning martial arts is about getting really good at the fundamentals and basics. What that taught me in spending so much time doing martial arts is everything is about getting good at the fundamentals and the basics, but you have to learn everything else to realise you don't need all that stuff, okay, right? To then go back to say, okay, it's like the Pareto principle, the Pareto law of the 80-20. 80% of your results will come from 20% of your work. That works across everything across life. Like these are truths that spread across across our life, and understanding that is an important thing too. I think. I love this.

SPEAKER_02 9:35

This conversation's gonna get deep, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 9:36

Yeah, that's cool. That's cool. So I don't want to go off on tangents in the middle of the it's good. But we're talking, but if you get me going on some stuff, I'm gonna end up going there.

SPEAKER_02 9:44

But that's what that's what we want, definitely. So the podcast in kind of in three sections, it's kind of trying to get the best out of ourselves, or how do we lot potential in ourselves? Um, and then it's how do we get the best out of others and lot potential in others? And then how it's a kind of for me, then how do we kind of wrap this all up and we offer some advice to the listeners? So there's actually something tangible that they can then take away and you know take action immediately. I think it's really important to do that. So, one of the things from kind of reading your book and following your history, I actually it was really important for me to write this question. I was thinking about this opening question because was I get the impression that kind of you've gone on a real journey of self. I I got the impression from listening to you and listening to stuff that you've gone on a journey of self-development, and you've actually said that has even come from being a curious child, which which was really nice, and kind of working through, and I think you you do it really well in the book, talk about your journey. It'd be really cool if you could just start with kind of what does how is that development over from that to where you are today, that journey of working on those details of how you become the octable version of yourself.

SPEAKER_03 10:58

Uh, what do you mean? In what way?

SPEAKER_02 11:01

Well, you know, obviously, in the book and your history, you talk about kind of your journey through your martial arts career, and actually, part of that journey, you you got to the the peak, and actually there was a there was almost an awareness that I almost felt that that wasn't the point, or you weren't happy even at that point. Yeah, so and then listening to how you talk now in this kind of very stoic, very growth mindset kind of way. How have you gone on this journey from being that curious child to where you are? What what's a big question now?

SPEAKER_03 11:38

So, yeah, so uh if I if I go off topic, please please bring me back in. But I am a martial artist, I always have been. And what happened was so if I if I go back, so when I got to the UFC, I'd just gone through so many years of being hurt and injured, which I've found out recently is because I've I've got uh something wrong with me called EDS, a connective tissue disorder. So in hindsight, I look back and I'm like, oh, right, okay, it makes sense now why I was hurt all the time, why I got injured all the time. But I was a martial artist from being a kid, but I was a martial artist in what a lot of people miss, in that martial art, being a martial artist and Bushido and Budo is all about the encompassing of everything. It's not just about fighting, it's about development of yourself and the spirituality of it all, and being a good person and and being a protector, and that was the ethos that I have always lived my life by. Through my journey, my ego, like we all go through, my ego took over a little bit on part of that journey. And I weren't being my true self, I was acting in as the egoic self. And I took the label of a fighter, and I thought that's who I am. I am this fighter. I'm the guy who's fought in the UFC. I'm one of the first guys in the UK to fight in the U in the UFC. I'm you know, I'm a fighter. And I thought that's my persona, that's who I am. For a little while I fell into that trap. And I got to the UFC because I thought that was my goal. I couldn't wait to get to this mountaintop and be like, look at this, look at me. And then I got there and it was empty. It didn't feel but that wasn't my goal. You know, that wasn't my actual goal. My goal was to be a martial artist and to grow and develop all this time. And I found through all the things that I've achieved and all the goals that I've hit. The goal, and I and goal, I'm sure we'll probably touch on this goals are extremely important, but they were never the thing that fulfilled me the the set. And so I was just this understanding that I'm a martial artist, and that is part of my persona, but a fighter was more about the ego and about being seen. And so I went through the struggle then of when I retired. I had to retire, I I got a fracture on my neck and I had to retire and uh prolaps. I had issues all the time to through my fighting career with it. But I was linked to Goicley to become to be in this fighter, and when it came time to not fight her, then I'm like, well, who am I? Yeah, you know, who am I now? And I just had this empty feeling of well, I don't know what I am. Right, okay, you know. Uh and that was I think that's something now that I've I've spoken with a lot of people, you know, athletes, rugby players, uh, footballers. Everyone, when we associate something to us, we think that that's our worth, and we don't realise that it's it's far from it, it's just a label that we stick on ourselves.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

And identity, which there's a word that kind of goes through my head. There's an identity of when you're you know you are fighting, that that's who you are, yeah. And then is there an element around the the ego's being fed by the identity, and then all of a sudden, like you say, your identity, because it's like it's taken away.

SPEAKER_03 15:10

Yeah, yeah, there's not you you aren't as soon as that isn't there anymore, and then you go, well, if I'm not this fighter, and then people think I'm this fighter, and then I'm not, then who am I and what's my worth and what's my value, and what suddenly now what do I provide?

SPEAKER_02 15:26

Do you mind just exploring what that was like for you? Just sharing that moment.

SPEAKER_03 15:31

I mean, I think it was an ongoing journey, really. Okay, you know, and uh delving deep and and realizing that's not who you are is extremely important. You know, realising that you aren't just this person. Like we have so many cycles in our life. If we allow ourselves to when we keep growing and and and keep asking questions, do we realise that there's just stages and phases of your life? Like it's really strange. Like I look back at some of my fights and I'm like, I don't I don't know who that person is because that's not okay, that's not me, you know. I don't uh we just have these experiences that add to probably our knowledge, and and if we can use them to help other people and teach from their moments, then you know that's that's inherently that's their value, isn't it? In them experiences.

SPEAKER_02 16:23

And during that, are you comfortable keep exploring this? Oh, you throw it out of it. Okay, um I I think it's important the reason be because I think that a lot of people do have these moments in their lives that you know the identity can change, you know, if they lose a job or they don't get a job, or like you said, from an athletic perspective, you know, the problem with being an athlete is that sometimes your body is the is the is the the the reason why we have to stop or age so that almost becomes this other chapter in your life which you need to start writing.

SPEAKER_03 16:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:59

When you were going through that moment, is that something you had to work through yourself, or is that something that you kind of who did you go to in those moments to help go through that?

SPEAKER_03 17:09

Um well, myself really. Um obviously my wife is like you know, my best friend. I I trust her with everything, we speak a lot, and um she does nothing but support everything that I've ever done. Um you know, so there was it's a difficult time, but again in hindsight, you look back and and and some of the hardest times are the best times, you know. It's you know, the Nietzschean phrase of Amor Fatih, you know, for the love of fate, it's like understanding these moments that you go through, these difficult times, they're meant for you, they're yours to to own and to see through and to to go through. Um and in hindsight, they're really important. Yeah, you know, they're really important. My best lessons were then, you know. I there's there's times I look back of extreme hardships, and I'm like, these were the moments where I learned, you know, like uh Marcus Aurelius says, don't just speak of your philosophy, embody it, you know. You you've got to be that person that you want to be. Like I obviously refer to Stoicism a lot because it's given me a lot of solace in my life, you know, it's given me a lot of strength in my life, it's given me the opportunity to respond to moments in in ways that have served me extremely well. So I refer to Stoicism a lot because it's probably the philosophy that I embody the most. I wouldn't say I was a stoic and I don't follow it dogmatically. Um but I try to employ as much of that philosophy as I can.

SPEAKER_02 18:49

And I think it's and it's interesting you you know when reflecting back on hindsight, because you know, we never know where people are, do we, you know, and you know, there's gonna be people listening to this, hopefully, you know, and one of the things they're listening to is they might be in times of hardship, and actually it's it's important, isn't it, that we recognise that they are they can be just part of our journey, part of our path, and that actually brighter days will come, yeah, you know, and that and that can be someone unemployed or searching for a job or struggling and stuck and can't move on. Um, it could be in pain or injured, it could be lots of different reasons why people could feel the world's tough at the moment for them. For those then who potentially are listening, they are having those times. Is that something you would kind of encourage people to do to go and read some of the stoic stuff?

SPEAKER_03 19:48

I know um it's not that I would necessarily say go and read stoicism as such, because I think some of it is quite difficult. If you've never read philosophy before, you know, it can be quite difficult. And I feel like that's part of what you know, using stoicism in the book and in ways that I can uh work in in the philosophies without having this uh barrier, really, you know, a barrier for entry, and I try and you I reference where it'll come from, but try and uh uh you know be applicable to to actual real life situations and and modern day situations. And I do think stoicism is an excellent philosophy, I think it's phenomenal. I think it's really been misconstrued massively in the last few years, and it's what a lot of people reference as broccism now. Okay, and it's this feeling, this thing of like I'm not bothered and being nonchalant and being right, which is really far from the truth. You know, being stoic isn't about and this is probably due to the the etymology of words in in the English language, in that you know, stoic is to be emo to be void of emotion, right? But uh it's ultimately about not being controlled by your emotion, stoicism with a big ass. Uh but the word stoic that we use in English is about being void of emotion and and and just stoic and and and that's it. So understanding the differences between them, like a a man who employs or a woman who employs stoicism isn't about not having emotion, far from it. Marcus you read Marcus Aurelius' meditations, and you know, this is the most powerful man in the world at the time, and he's pouring his heart out and talking about love and affection and and fears and judgments and all of these things, it shows that it's not about that. This is just someone who's never spent the time studying what these stoics are actually talking about.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

Yeah, I think for me, when I when I read a lot of it and obviously read the book in modern day translation, a lot of it comes across in the work. For me, in emotional intelligence, yeah, it's recognising what emotion that you're feeling almost trying to accept it and going, okay, how do I take control of this emotion in a certain way? And that's you know, and I think one of the when I read a lot of that stuff, that's certainly my interpretation of it is the pin in of going, okay, so I can recognise I'm self-aware enough to recognise what I'm going through, I'm smart enough to recognise the probably effect that this is having on other people, and then I also am going, right? I need to change my own behaviour because this isn't helpful to me and probably others around me, and that's my kind of my modern flip on it, really.

SPEAKER_03 22:38

Um well, I find like the Stoics had really good exercises in like you're saying there about understanding how my behaviour's affecting other people, and you you know, you or your reaction to something like you said about you know, how what would you recommend to people if they're going through a hard time? Or you know, and the stoics had like an exercise of you from above, and it would be like, what if you just took yourself out and you were looking on, and I I think sometimes stoicism can come across quite mean or heartless, yeah. You know, they might they might talk about uh losing a child, and they talk about that quite a lot, a lot of the stoics, because it was something that happened. You know, Marcus Aurelius lost seven kids, uh you know, seven of his kids died. Like they would speak about it because it was something that happened frequently, but for any parent, what's harder than that, I don't believe there's anything harder than that, you know. Um and they would say, like, the view from above, use the view from above and see you know, sympathize with people, empathize with people, but don't don't be complicit within the their uh pain. Okay, don't don't go in and be don't overdo it as such, you know. And understanding that the view from above is just how would you be if it was somebody else? You would be upset for them for a minute, but then you would let it pass. And it's like understanding that it's because of our reaction, our viewpoint affects our response to it much more than we actually allow ourselves to think. You know, I'm not saying that I'm capable of doing that, and I you know, but I try to do that, I try to understand it as deep as I can.

SPEAKER_02 24:13

One of the things that seems to come across in like this podcast is we're all working progresses.

SPEAKER_03 24:17

Yeah, always I think and everybody is, but that's that's the whole point of a growth mindset, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 24:21

Yeah, correct.

SPEAKER_03 24:21

You know, people are so afraid to make mistakes, yeah. Like, and it's I I make lots of mistakes. I always make mistakes, I always mess up, I I do things wrong, I I I but I try to make them better all the time. Yeah, and by doing that, I started to grow much more and much quicker. And I'm alright with like this one of the biggest fears that people have is people's opinions, you know, and I speak about this to people, and then you know, you you're afraid of making a mistake because you're scared of what someone might think of you. But as soon as you become fine with not bothering what people think, like I genuinely don't care what people think of me. All I try and do is to uh be as a good a man as I can, as I can protect people and look after people and help people. But I'm gonna make mistakes on that on that journey too, and people are gonna be upset because people will just decide sometimes that they don't like you, and I'm alright with you not liking me, don't we? Like, you know, because because people are fleeting, like, and again to refer back to some stoicism Marcus Aurelius says, you know, these do to paraphrase him, he says, I I know how they think about themselves, so why would I be concerned about everything? Yeah, lovely to view it, yeah. You know, and and people will just dislike you anyway. So if you try and live your your best life as a as a good person, uh I think I think you'll probably find a bit more happiness there.

SPEAKER_02 25:43

And there's a level, I mean I love all that, and it's something I completely resonate with because it's the the point of, and I don't I you know I can only talk about self in this, and I don't know, I couldn't even tell in the moment, but there's a point where someone said to me, You seem to have your shit together. And I went, far from it. I says the difference is I'm comfortable with who I am now, yeah, I'm comfortable with my flaws, I do make mistakes, but I'm also brave enough to hold my hand up and own them. And I think, and and all right, okay. And I think it's a big part, so it's a bit like that, and then there's also the the the kind of you know, it would be if we actually think about everyone's gonna like you, just that line alone, you'd go, well, that's impossible, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 26:29

Well, the way that I say it to people is, do you like everybody? Yeah, there's not one person, like I try and be as loving and as open and as friendly as I can possibly be, but there's some people with very differing views that I would say, I'm probably not gonna spend that much time with you. It's not that I don't like you, yeah, it's just that you probably aren't resonating on a similar frequency as as I am, and we're very different people. So obviously, people are gonna think the same as me too. They're gonna either dislike me or or actually have zero feeling at all towards me or really like me, and there's not really much I can do about that if I just lived to myself.

SPEAKER_02 27:07

And it's a quite nice thing you say that because I think that is something which a lot of people, you know, and I know you talk the book is called Fearless by Design, you know, fear is something you talk about, and as a fighter, you know, it's something that a lot of fighters talk about or don't talk about, and I think most people walking around with life, and it's part of our kind of it's part of our physiology, isn't it? The thing that works about all the time. 100%. But some things like you've said, we're afraid of what happens if they don't like me, and you know, my analogies were well, they might not, yeah. You know, your leg's not gonna fall off because you've you know someone doesn't agree with you, you know. I've and I a lot of people I know when I'm helping them prep for maybe a big meeting or things, I don't like, oh my god, man, going into a room, and I go and you know I'm thinking about what happens if such things, this and things I went, right? Let's just pause. If we walk into a room, do we expect everyone to look the same? No, okay. So why would we assume they're all gonna think the same? And there's like a penny drop going, all right, fair point. You know, everyone's gonna have their own view of the world, and you've got no control over that whatsoever. You can only control how you present it in the way that you feel is best in that moment, and like you've said, with you know, I'm trying to do good in the world, I'm gonna enter this conversation with compassion, and hopefully I'm helpful.

SPEAKER_03 28:32

And if it doesn't land that way, then yeah, and I I I think like speaking whenever I'm public speaking now, I uh you know, I'm dead fortunate that this uh path has taken me then that I get to go and do a lot of keynotes and then speak to a lot of businesses and business owners and and people just into personal development. And I remember about a decade ago, I hadn't done that many, I was just doing parts of stuff similar to like what's in feelers, really. Um I was talking on stoic philosophy and certain mindset stuff, and I'd done a speech, uh, this this talk, and I was speaking to maybe a room of like 50 people or something like this. It weren't a massive room, and there was two people in the room, and I couldn't get them on. And I was like in the back of my mind, I'm like, oh how do I get these? These two are just like they're like sat, they're looking at the phone a bit, and I'm like talking, and and I'm I'm good really, and I'm well practiced, and a lot of speakers who come and see me speak, and they were who were better than me, and they say, you know, you've got a really good skill at getting people to just sit and just listen and wait to what you're saying, and you people are keen. And so I noticed that people's body language leans to me as I speak, and you know, I and I and I practice these skills, and these two people I couldn't get them to do it. I couldn't, and I'm thinking, oh, but there's 48 people who were in there who are going, but these two I'm I'm focusing, but then at the end of the of the 90-minute talk, these two were the first two people to come up to you and go, That was amazing. That thing that you said here was this, and it was the best lesson for me in that you can't control the room and you don't know what they're thinking, you don't know what's going on, and you're thinking you're you're you're creating this narrative in your mind that these two are thinking you're a dickhead, and you can't teach them anything, anything at all, and not interested. I'm trying desperately trying to get these on the hook, you know, to listen, but they are, but my interpretation of their body language was off because I was in front on a stage in front of loads of people, um, you know, and it's important to understand that that you go, and that was a lesson then for me, where I was like, I can't control any of this. No, I can only control my response to it, you know, the Stephen Covey thing of between stimulus and response. Yeah, well, there's my stimulus, and and my internal reaction was, Oh my god, I've got to try and get them on. And it's like, you can't control that, you don't know, you don't know what's happening here.

SPEAKER_02 30:54

Like, and it's funny to say that because when you were saying that, the Stephen Covey kind of analogies were running through my head, and I would yeah, I was trying to keep focused.

SPEAKER_03 31:02

I was thinking well, I mean, if you look at Stephen Covey's stuff, a lot of his stuff is taken from stoicism, right? Yeah, that he would take, you know, the the between stimulus and response allies a space, and in that space is our power to respond. Like that is a stoic tenet, like uh that he's obviously taken and and utilized in in business for you know the seven habits, yeah and uh you know, and and the same with uh he he uh reference is uh what's his name? The uh Victor Frankel. Oh yeah, there's a lot of in you know interconnections with him and him and sources with right okay.

SPEAKER_01 31:39

Oh nice yeah talk about fear jump it's something so is it something you would say you still work with or what do I get afraid?

SPEAKER_03 31:56

Yeah, so referring to stoicism, stoicism has a thing called proper thea, which is like initial reaction. So if I jump at you, you're gonna have that instant thing, right? If you if a car if a if you're in a car and a car nearly hits you and you've got that initial or it blips on, that's the initial reaction of a fear, like you're gonna but it's we all get you can't ever get away from that. No, that's a natural reaction that will always happen. The next step though is how do you view that? Yeah, what do you do with that information that you've just been given? Yeah, do you now run off with it? Oh my god, I can't believe that this is happening, and I've done or do you understand that you can create space between the stimulus and response? I like that, yeah. So I I'm much more capable of your mind's running away with you now. Okay, right, you know, because you think I've got a fight coming up, I've got a fight coming up, and then you start playing it out in your mind of all these negative things that might happen, right? Well, when you become well versed in fear and understanding it, that you understand that you're gonna get that initial reaction, whatever triggers that response off, but it's are you in control now of that bit between? And so that's where that's probably where I'd say I was at. I don't I don't get ruled by fear, but I still get the initial response sometimes to certain things and stressed, and and and then I'm able to control that.

SPEAKER_02 33:27

Which is a human thing, isn't it? And I think that's the bit of you know, that's that that kind of depends how far you want to go back in into the the world of well it's the thing of uh have you read Nicomachian Nicomachian Ethics from Aristotle?

SPEAKER_03 33:39

So Aristotle has what's called the golden mean, and the golden mean is like it's gonna be lots of reading from this, a lot of these called. What's in the middle of of uh you know your the extremes, yeah. So wherever we are, we think the others are in the extremes, and this is something that people miss. And it's like you can be courageous, is in them if that's the golden mean, being courageous face of fear and still acting. Well, across from that is reckless, okay, right? If you aren't feeling any fear, then you're being reckless, aren't you? You're rushing in, or you're being a coward, yeah, right, and you're cowardice and you're cowering away and you've you're fearful, but in the middle, in that golden mean of that fear, you're gonna feel it and be courageous that you can push through, and it's usually like that kind of measurement is I always find the golden mean is a very good uh very good.

SPEAKER_02 34:26

It's the it's the bit of what is normal. Yeah, that was the question. I was like when people say, Well, what is normal? Well, actually, if you look at statistics, normal's massive, the range in normals really big. The abnormal is actually the bit of the end, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 34:38

You know, it's so that kind of aligns to a lot of the kind and then what you find is those whatever part you're on, they'll look like you know, you can look on a golden mean and be like the opposite guys, the extreme. Yeah, they always think that the guys were reckless will go, you're soft. Okay, you're not your courage, you know, you're the other guy with courage, but like you know, to the others, and and to the guy who's who's at the the far end who's a coward who's fearful, you're crazy, you are you're you know, you're reckless because you're because you're facing up to this fear, you know, and it's understanding that a lot of people is perspective, yeah, you know, and I think what's quite nice about that, and one of the things I'm kind of taking a lot from this, again, is creating that perspective, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 35:18

And I love that kind of almost recognising having that space of pause to then kind of almost process, you know, what is my perspective of this in this moment in time? Do I need to run away? Or actually, have I just been scared because my kids run behind me and done something, you know, and wounded me up. There's um, I think that's a really nice little bit to take what I love about the transition that you've kind of done and what you're doing is you know, and I I don't use this word lightly, you know, you are generally kind of inspiring lots of people, and yeah, and I think that is how how have you found kind of obviously from your own journey, you know, being on that curious child that's gone through this journey, through identity shifts and changes along the way. Sounds like you've been had a very supportive wife along the way, and I'm sure she's she's heard a lot of this already, but it's nice to have that safe environment. How do you how have you then started to create safe environments for others to learn and develop? Because I think that that for me is you know what we're saying in this conversation, you know. I'm never going to compare myself to you, but I think we have a very similar growth mindset. I think we have a got that that that eagerness to learn and develop and self-develop and personal developing, you know. But I'm the kind of weird dad that sits on the side of the pool reading evolutionary psychology books because that's what that's what I do anymore. You know, everyone else is reading the latest, I don't know, Jack Reacher novel, and I'm reading the Ape The Understood the Universe kind of thing. Um, you know, so from that, how do you then create an environment where you know, through the speaking and the coaching that you're doing, so other people can, you know, start to embody some of the things that you've that have obviously really helped you along your.

SPEAKER_03 37:14

What do you mean in like the academy in there?

SPEAKER_02 37:16

Well, just generally, I think I think we can see it from the academy because you know, one of the things I see a lot, you've there's a lot of kids coming through the academy, which is great that they've got somebody like yourself who is kind of helping, you know, becoming a good role model and a good impression on you know, young boys and girls coming into the world of which the world is slightly crazy and chaotic, yeah. Um through the like social media and everything else that's going on, but then also through the work you're doing as a speaker, you know, I think is you know, so you can take this with whichever way feels to take it first.

SPEAKER_03 37:50

Um I mean, you know, for me being a coach is really important. Uh I've I I've taught for a long time, so like I've done martial arts all my life, and I was teaching from literally from being like 17 years older, so I was teaching martial arts from. But I weren't a coach then. You know, I I had this thing that I have wrought about uh years back about an instructor, a teacher, and a coach, yeah, and they're very different roles. But you as a martial arts teacher, coach or instructor, you end up having to embody as a coach, you embody all of them. Yeah, you have to instruct. An instructor is easy, isn't it? It's just do 10 press-ups. I'm instructing you to do 10 press-ups. Teaching you, I'm teaching you some techniques, teaching you some of the moves that you're gonna use. But coaching you, I'm coaching you differently. Our bond is gonna be very different if I'm your coach than if I'm your teacher. Yeah, you know, and if I'm your instructor, and it's levels of depth of how much am I involved in your development, really? How much am I coaching you in your life? Now, I might be someone's coach for a year and then they started doing this, but it's that bond is still there, that relationship is still there. I might be coaching you for 20 years, and I'm still your coach, and I'm always your coach, you know. But the coaching is about coaching the people out of them as well and letting them see their potential. The biggest tip I ever say is it's about perspective, really. You know, you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change.

SPEAKER_02 39:17

You know, that Max Plank uh phrase that uh when dietal, you know, is a life-altering uh quote if you allow it to be if you understand, like you know, you're seeing the glass half full, or the glass is half empty, it's that's a big teaching point all the time, and what you see and what you're lacking, and um I like that, I like the frame of uh and I it's interesting how you frame that as you know the teacher, the instructor, the coach, and how even when you said the word coach, you smiled, and it was because it was more of a it's the mindset shifting, like you've said, instructors just go and do 10 of them. Yeah, but a coach might be questioned well, how many could you do?

SPEAKER_03 40:03

Well, you see, for me, I find that um so you'll see some MMA or like fight coaches or whatever, they end up like doing a corner for someone because they're well known. And I think why? Yeah, you're only doing that to be seen, you've not you've no bond with someone, like that's where the the fun is. Like, you know, you look at my guys, and I've taken them from they've never fought to becoming you know literal MMA champions. Yeah, that's the journey, that's the whole point, and it's not about it's not even about them being a champion because no one cares. Yeah, and that's the other thing that you need to remember is like that everyone needs to remember for all the things that I've ever done. My son doesn't even care about any of my fights. Like, I I I I I achieved one of my massive goals was that I got to fight in Japan, and it was on it was on uh Japanese uh the Dish Network in Japan, it was massive, and then only just last year, someone sent me, someone had found it uh recording of the broadcast on Japanese TV, and it was like all the Japanese uh commentators and everything. So they sent it to me, and I got it and I sent it to my son on WhatsApp, and he was like, What's that? He's not asked, he's not asked, and he's perdoned me for I know he's predomined me as his dad, but it's like your son's not asked really, no one's bothered, yeah. And yet you're you're living so fearful from these things anyway, like thinking, oh my god, what's gonna what's someone's gonna judge me about? No one cares, mate. They'll just carry on, they'll worry about themselves, yeah. You know, uh but then you know, you see these things that I think, why are you on the what why do you want to be seen to do this? It you are that's that's not the important bit. The important bit is the person who's there, who you've helped mould and create. And obviously that's that's the thing for me for martial arts is in the sensei, you know, the sensei in the student, and you're guiding someone and you're you're helping them to realise the potential and to become who they are capable of being. And being a coach is difficult sometimes. It's it's I liken it to being a parent, and that and especially a father, I think if you've got you know, if if you've got sons, people understand what I mean, and that we have to be Irish sometimes, and and it hurts us, but for us to love our kids, we have to hurt ourselves sometimes in being strict and disciplined because we know that that discipline leads them to success later on in life, you know, that making them do the things that they don't want to do, we know that that leads to better habits and to better outcomes for them, and yet at the time they hate us for it. And sometimes as a coach, that's what it's like. Like I coach the kids, and everyone always says to me, Well, how come you coach the kids? Well, because no gym's got a coach like to your, you know. I don't mean this to sound arrogant because I don't I genuinely don't mean it in that way, but they don't say, like, you know, a black belt lifelong martial artist uh teaching, you know, seven, eight, nine, ten-year-old kids. Yeah. And I said, the reason is is because I can plant seeds.

SPEAKER_00 43:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:04

The seeds are planted in the class that they don't realise years and years later on.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:10

And then you see them in the life, and they're not, they might not even be doing martial arts anymore, but they're successful in the life, they're happy in the life, and it's just because them seeds what I planted, what I had the opportunity to plant, and tell them how good they were, and and how if they can employ these growth mindsets and the things that they're exposed to will help them, and that's like extra probably the most rewarding thing for it, plus they're dead funny as well, and they always call me names.

SPEAKER_02 43:35

So that's the real reason, yeah, yeah, because they're funny, but yeah, but I I mean I took from that, you know, I mean, it it's interesting because the word coach, it's something that you know, it does have a different way of doing it, and even as a martial arts coach, you know, you've not once really mentioned even technical, it was about what's the person inside, what's their potential, how do we get that out, and even then when you talk. About the kids, the smile, you know, your the your body language, everything changed, and you can really see it. Um, you know, and I get the impression from when you're talking like that, that actually it's that's the bit that keeps the fire in your belly going is the fact of going, Well, I get the opportunity to plant these seeds, and I don't know what you know, like we talked about control, we don't actually know what they're gonna what adults they're gonna become, but there's a part of you that copes that that what they're you're planting is then gonna stick with them, isn't it? Isn't it and especially I can assume in the way you deliver it as well.

SPEAKER_03 44:34

Yeah, and it's just telling these these uh you know, telling the stories and using the philosophies that I've learned that these kids are gonna are gonna pick these little bits up, and and don't get me wrong as well, we have the most amazing like coaching staff here who helped with the kids and that, and they're as as uh deeply involved as I am. That's lovely, you know, and it's it's amazing to see and to have this fun with them, and uh you know I I'm really strict, I'm really disciplined with them, but like I said, they'll they'll call me little names sometimes and they'll joke and and I'll play with you know I'll play and mess about and and with them and things, but I'm strict too, and and so are the other coaches when they need to be. And I just feel like that the environment is really important for them, but I sometimes think jujitsu isn't. Now I know you know jujitsu and I don't really have the kids compete that much because I don't like the environment, okay. And I feel like I mean we're gonna go off on a tangent here, probably, and and I'm curious as to as to your uh to your thoughts too. Now, martial arts I think is one of the best tools for development if it's done right. But I feel now that jujitsu is becoming quite toxic. And I had a chat with two of my other friends, two black belts, um just recently, they're from other areas uh have clubs and things, and they're they're the same to said said the same to me, and he said, I don't want my daughter to go and compete. Right, okay. And I was like, Alright, why is that then? And he said, Because I find it really toxic. Right. He said, I really don't like this thing of these kids competing and the way that they are, and I I I speak vocally about this anyway, so and I have on on social media, and you've got these coaches and these parents, and they're shouting, Yeah, do this, you know, snap it, snap it. And I'm like, they're eight, nine-year-old kids. What are you on about? Yeah, let them just if you want them to compete, which I think is good, I think competition is good. I think I think having the kids face up to fear is good. I think having the kids face up to things that they think they might fail is good, that's important, it will help them if it's done right. Yeah, but if it's not done right, it'll suffocate them and they'll be terrified for the rest of their life.

SPEAKER_02 46:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:51

And and seeing these competitions now, you've got all these people shouting and screaming in a sports centre in wherever, in in Ashton somewhere or something, right? And it's like as though it's something really important. I know. And they're forgetting what martial arts is about, you know, and that the the the kids who are really good, they're having cameras following them around and filming them. And I'm like, you're a 10-year-old kid, no one cares if you're good at jujitsu. You think like this Instagram thing's important, you think that having smoke blown up grass is important, and in a few years' time, you'll not even want to do it because you'll realize that other people will catch up. Because that's always what happens in any in any of the sports, you'll get the young kids at rugby with the bigger ones who are finding it easy and they think they're great, and then when they start getting in against the kids who didn't have it so easy, the ones who develop resilience, these guys fire off usually, and something gets in the way.

SPEAKER_02 47:49

Where do I go with that? Um yeah, I think what's it's interesting when we look at child development generally, about how we again create an environment that they are self they feel safe to develop. Because I think what what I know from spending a lot of time with psychotherapists on the pod and having good conversations with them, that's a lot of the stuff that we take from our child will be taken to adulthood. Oh, for sure. My curiosity would be I wonder how many of the parents that are the ones shouting on the sideline, part of their dream or their failed dream they're then playing out through their kid, or you know, it's all they all live vicariously through the kids, don't they?

SPEAKER_03 48:28

That's that's part of it, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:29

And that's the but also the element of going. We had um a psychotherapist on she was talking around the behaviours that you know, and it was really open conversation because you turned around and was like saying, Well, you understand as parents we're always doing damage to our kids, yeah. But and I'm going, hey, well, that moment where you're busy and you're not paying them attention, and they're tapping on your leg and you just ignore them, or you just go give it a minute. But that could be in their world seen as a sign of rejection, and you're thinking, Oh my god, as a parent, all of a sudden you're going, Well, what damage am I doing to my children? And then she was very open where she turned around and went, Oh, don't get me wrong, I get it wrong all the time. And I I talk about this live and you're thinking, All right, but again, that's the bit, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 49:09

I think what you're saying, and also it's it's that other thing of perspective again, yeah. Where you go, well, you know, I think probably for me, like I knew my parents loved me. Yeah, they were they weren't ever shy in loving me, but there's a lot of things where you go, like, they weren't involved in anything. No, probably why everything I achieve, I'm never like I'm glad I achieved that. It's like next thing, next thing. Yep, same, right? Yeah, but then is that always a bad thing as such? Because maybe I wouldn't have done things that I've done then, maybe without that that without that stimulus or you know, that that part of my life. If I'd have had every need met, yeah, then maybe I wouldn't be the person that I am now.

SPEAKER_02 49:46

And I well, you you you touched on hardship, didn't you, earlier? And actually, how that is kind of been well, I've made my assumption the part of the fuel that that that kind of drove you forward and what you are today and how you are delivering the information.

SPEAKER_03 49:59

Well, my my good friend, one of my closest friends, um he came to the conclusion we did the uh you know this the disc. Yeah, the disc profile. And it was like years and years back this, and we did it, and he was like, you're you go through everything really difficultly, like you go through all the hardships so that you can learn how to do it easy and teach other people how to do it. And he's like, that's like an obvious train of things through your life, and I was like, Oh yeah, like as we went, you know, we went through all the things, and I was like, that's an interesting take on you know, on it, and he's probably right, but uh you know that's part and parcel of who I am, I think, in that you know you face these difficulties and then you learn from them, and and that's like anything in life, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 50:43

The hardships will will help make you yeah, but it's how you and again not here to blow smoke up, but you know, one of the things I think that what you what I understand that you've taken, I think really good coaches do do in whatever realm they can take the information that they've learned, their experiences, but articulate it in a way to turn it into a lesson.

SPEAKER_03 51:04

Yeah, I I think I think with that is I I get told that uh quite a lot, which I always you know I always welcome it. I'm I'm um I'm like anybody else, you know, it's nice to receive compliments, isn't it? But uh you know, in the fact that taking a concept and delivering it easily just means that I understand it well. I've just spent a long time doing something, you know, and I feel like especially in this day and age now, there's a lot of surface level knowledge, but there's no depth. Yeah, people don't sit and read, people don't sit and learn and study and put into practice the things that we talk about. Like I I always uh liken it to uh I'll talk about you know uh building, building work, DIY stuff, I'm pathetic, like ridiculously terrible at it, right? And I'm like, I couldn't, I couldn't tell you. Like we, you know, we built this place, but I just had a vision of the things that I wanted, yeah, yeah. And then I spoke to some of my closest friends and said, right, can you do this with this with this work? And they go, Well, you need to do this, and you need to put this beam in, or this would have to happen. All right, well, if you plan it, but can we have it like that? Like, but I I'm terrible at it, okay, like really bad, but I haven't spent time learning, so I don't have that knowledge. But it really impresses me seeing the guys who are the builders, the guys what they can create, the work that they do. To me, I'm like super impressed, easily impressed by it, probably. You know, to a lot of the guys, they'd probably be like, What do you mean? I'm just but to me it's amazing because I haven't got the time, I haven't spent any time in developing any knowledge on it. But the other thing is that I've spent time learning. If I'm on it, I'm on it. I'll like write books on it and I'll and I'll spend that time and I'm obsessive, possibly to a fault, to be honest. Okay, you know, like you're saying, I'm that guy who's on holiday and I'm sat reading and making notes and going through like all these. You're not on holiday as well. Oh, yeah. I don't feel too bad now because I've got high haters and everything. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I I'm uh you know, I scribbling all my books and writing and I'm making notes on everything that uh that is applicable that will help me become a better coach and a better person and a better dad.

SPEAKER_02 53:08

And that's what I kind of I've really taken from today is that you know a lot of this isn't all I think it is for you, but it's also almost so that you can support others better. I don't know if I've I've concluded that right. I think some of it is for you, and obviously it's a passion that you've got for for learning and developing.

SPEAKER_03 53:29

I I like I like to help people feel better. I like to help people I just like I do like to help people. That's probably why I'm a coach, and my was always probably my calling to it to a point. Um I think being able to to help people when they're in pain or suffering is good, but sometimes it doesn't sometimes people will say you're a bit harsh, I'm a bit harsh, or or you know, uh because that's my interpretation of I think that's what's probably gonna serve them best. Sometimes you need an arm random and they need a cuddle and they need a looking after, and sometimes you need telling off and being told you know to to do a certain plan or to do something in some way.

SPEAKER_02 54:17

And I'm sure that most people will even if they don't receive it positively at the start, will go, that's right, I did need that.

SPEAKER_03 54:25

Usually, yeah. I think some people might might never, you know. I I don't think that everyone is capable of receiving feedback. Okay, you know, sometimes we I've I've been culpable of it. I've been a victim. Do you know what I mean? I've had that victim mindset and and felt sorry for myself until at one point I realized you'll never get anything. No, and no one cares like you care about yourself. Yeah, like so you think it's all about you and you're you're stuck in this self-pitying uh place. Instead, instead of doing that, you know, like we said before, take action. Yeah, take action on something instead and stop stop being in that place. But sometimes you can tell people that and they think you're being mean, but it's not being mean, it's not being harsh, it's just saying if you take action, you won't have to feel that way anymore.

SPEAKER_02 55:19

And again, I think again, feedback's interesting, you know, and it's probably not a comic, it could be part two of the conversation because I think it's a really you know, it's a topic that I certainly talk around a lot with leaders is because it's how we deliver feedback, and again, it's our people open to receiving it. And the bit of the conclusion I was come to I says, like, you know, if you're doing it from a good place and with compassion, and actually from a place that you want somebody to improve, then sometimes you have to deliver it with a little bit of directness, don't you?

SPEAKER_03 55:52

Well, I think that's if you could, yeah. Yeah, and there's that thing of do you uh well also with coaching, when you become a good coach with and you build the connections, like I was talking about with Daving guys, you'll know where they'll receive it. Yeah, you'll know when, you'll know what they need to know, what they need to hear, and hopefully you'll understand the way to tell them, you know.

SPEAKER_02 56:13

But that comes from you putting the time in to understand them as well, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_03 56:17

Of course, yeah, that's the connection, isn't it? Yeah, you know, and that's what I'm saying about the the coach, the instructor, the teacher, you know, yeah, the the differing depth of of what you're giving, yeah, but it's also in what you receive too, you know. I'm I'm not everyone's coach, you know. I mean, I know on Instagram my my handle's like coach on blacklets, but you know, I'm not everyone's coach. Yeah, uh there's a cost in being a coach. Yeah, there's a cost in in you calling me coach, you've got to invest, you know, for that that too.

SPEAKER_01 56:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:47

To a point, you know, people will say I a coach or call me coach, you know, in in just call me that, which is fine. That's not what I mean, you know. That's good, it's nice, it's it's a it's a nice term, isn't it, for someone to call you coach, it's nice. But as in that's my coach, like there's a cost for you as well, you have to invest fully. For me to give you fully, you've got to invest fully in in me being your coach too. And a lot of the time people miss that. Like, I don't I don't coach that many fighters now, the same because fighting's really difficult, isn't it? Yeah, being a fighter, there's not many fighters who who be pushing it on to the their kids and that, you know. I don't I don't push my son to go and fight. I don't want him to be a fighter. I want him to be a martial artist and I'm and he does train, uh, but I would rather him not be a fighter. If he chooses that life, then I'm obviously gonna go and back him 100%. But you know, for what it weren't fighting, it weren't fighting that gave me made me who I am, it was martial arts that made me who I am, as such, and the philosophy of delving into the philosophies of the martial arts. Fighting was a great tool for me to practice uh under pressure to see what these things felt like and to to pressure test if like for uh for me originally MMA weren't it weren't even called MMA when I did it, it weren't mixed martial arts when I first did it, it was no world's bad, you know, it wasn't it weren't anything, just go and practice your martial arts, go and see, go and have a fight and see if it works, see if what you've practiced works, and you know, like that's like some of my stuff on Instagram there is about that, you know, like where I said like this martial art is shit, it doesn't work, you know, and these guys are uh uh blaggers and they're pretending just to take money off people or just to pretend that these are you know superhero martial arts teachers and things. I think when we're when we're doing this, you know, when we're uh doing martial arts and doing these things, it's it's pressure tested, you know. But I don't think it has to be about fighting all the time. I don't think that martial arts has to be about fighting all the time, and and the things that you practice doesn't have to be about fighting all the time. I do think uh but that's what that's what it was when I was doing it, when I was doing those bad, you know, it was about go and try your style out, go and see what works, yeah, you know, see what works and what doesn't. No, it didn't work that I was I didn't I lost that fight. It was like you know, it's a very different kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 59:16

But and and it's interesting in my thoughts because there's real life feedback in there, yeah, because you try something and then go, okay, that didn't go quite to plan. That didn't quite work, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:24

So it's like you see a lot of the stuff and you go, that won't work because it doesn't work, because if it did, there'd be proof of it, and everyone would do it because now it's been it's all been pressure tested to as much as possible, hasn't it? You know, so uh you know, but anyway, as a fighter, no. I I wouldn't I wouldn't uh try and get my get my lad into being a fighter. I won't I don't recommend anyone out when someone comes to me and says they want to fight, I make sure that they want to do it, you know, because it's a very demanding, very demanding thing to do if you want to do it right, and you need to be safe because it's a dangerous thing to do.

SPEAKER_02 59:59

A hundred percent, and I think, and that's why I think it's important to have someone like you around people because I think it's and sometimes that direct conversation needs to occur, doesn't it? I think just so people really understand what it's like, you know, and I've been very fortunate or unfortunate, whatever you want to describe it as to see a lot of you know, I've been watching a sport a long time and sitting in in the Olympia in Liverpool in the back seat, freezing, and you know, and watching amateurs um turn up in a pair of puma shorts, looking very unprepared, and I just watch, and I I think part of my a lot of my stuff is watching body language, yeah, and I watch when they close the cage door and I go, Oh my god, the soul's just left that kid's body straight away because no one's prepared him for what it's gonna be. Well, just for that moment of the door's shut.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:54

And I don't I don't think you can ever prepare for it. No, true, yeah, to a point, yeah. Um it's a very lonely place in that case. It looks if I'm honest, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's a very lonely place, and and you know, it takes a certain I think there's probably something a bit wrong with us who go in there a little bit to be honest. Oh, before, I think there was before. I think I think now it's it's changed. Um unfortunately, I think a lot of people do it for clout now because it's on social media and they want to look and they think that there's something in being famous, or they think there's something special in being a fighter, and it's like that's not the speciality, that's not the special part of it. That is it's who you become on that journey. It's not it's not about being seen. I I have a pal of mine who who got into bur knuckle boxing, and I was like he was talking to me about some stuff and he was having a bit of an hard time, and I said, you know, would you do it? No, you only got into it recently. Would you do it if there weren't such a thing as social media? And he was like, No.

unknown 1:01:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:55

And I'm like, well, why are you doing it? Yeah. You just want to do it because you want to be seen, or I'm like, the you, you know, the the the pull isn't the same. Like I didn't do there was no social media when I was fighting. I just wanted to go and have a fight and see and test myself into feeling feelings, and like it's a horrible feeling. That feeling before a fight. Then 10 weeks before a fight, for any fighter who's watching this, they'll know what I mean. Them them moments when you have that instinctual response, oh, it's like a punch to the stomach. It's the worst feeling ever. There's there's probably no feel like fighting, which then makes a lot of other things quite easy after the fact, you know, or or or at least you can cope with a lot of things after the fact. But it I think your reasons are going to be a bit testing yourself more so than just because I want you to be seen on social media as a fighter.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:46

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:47

You know, and they're probably reverse, you're probably going back into that thing of um you know being a fighter and the ego thing of being linked to being a fighter, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:59

I like that. Yeah, I'm conscious of time. So if it's alright, can we move to a bit of advice? Because this uh you are one of those individuals I could spend three hours just exploring more and more. So I and I don't want to take so three practical things that people could try today. So for the listeners that have listened to this, and our listeners are gonna be naturally people because they see you will will be from some kind of combat sport background, and no doubt. But I think especially a lot of the work you're doing now with your public speaking and leaders and companies and stuff, and a lot of our followers are kind of CEOs and leaders and coaches and stuff, or you know, kind of inspiring business owners and entrepreneurs. What three principles do you think that you could take from this conversation or your journey that people could try today?

SPEAKER_03 1:03:49

What do you mean in what word?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:50

Like, is it things I'd recommend you should do in your life? Yeah, well, just I mean, the themes are how to get the best out of ourselves or how to help get the best out of others. And I think you've what you've done really articulately is kind of talk about your own journey and how you've got the best out of yourself and where you are today and the kind of the journey you're on, but then also the coach part of you. There's a the there's the Tom part of you that closes the door and is at home on the sofa with his, you know, his son and his wife, and then there's the coach part of you when you're in here and you've got I don't know how many kids running around the mat, or you've got all the fighters preparing for a fight. I see that as come as two identities, so you can kind of take it take it whichever way you want.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:30

What seems the what advice feels right to give them in in I I just mean as in like what would you you mean as in practical what do I recommend for uh success? Like, you know, do you say like read, make sure you're reading, or I think all that's important, yeah. You know, go and train in and like I recommend training to everybody. I think I think living the life of a martial artist, no matter your age, is is important, you know, go and do some martial arts and development because of what it offers you. Because I think I and I think um I think every man should be capable of of fighting to a degree. Uh I think it's important. I think just because of what it gives you, it humbles you and it creates a new perspective. Like I said before, a lot of the things I talk about, a lot of things is about your perspective and what you see, and and it makes well this is the other point. Obviously, I don't want to digress and then I'll go on all the time, but uh like I was talking with my friend, and we were talking about the toxic side of jujitsu there's a there's a branch of jujitsu that's not a martial art, it's not martial arts, it's all matching spats and and a bit like disrespect. Yeah, and a lot of these guys, the guys with no money, no success, no development plans, are all out for themselves. And I feel bad for those guys because that's not the path. And I remember I would probably be on. That path a little bit at one time when I was a fighter and I'd forgotten my way for a little while, as we all do. But I managed to get myself back on track and to live a successful life. Um but I would say that jujitsu is really good for creating a really good community for providing that third space. Like the Fighter Blueprint Academy is a great third space for people. For those who don't know what a third space is, it's like you've got your home, you've got your work, and you have another space. Yeah. You know, 15 years ago that was a pub probably for most people. Yeah. There's not many pubs, which I'm glad at because I'm not a fan of booze anyway. You know, I don't like the effect it has on people. Um so I think, but I do think that pubs provided something for some people, a place to go, a safe haven with friends and with with other like-minded individuals that they could speak to. Well, now jiu-jitsu applies, you know, a lot of jujitsu academies, you know, uh have that thing where it's like, I want to go and see my palace. Yeah, it's not just about martial arts, it's not really about fighting. You know, it's about the the place of having someone there who's like bothered about you.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:08

You know, you how many people are going, I go to work and I come home, and who's gonna think about me? Yeah. Who's bothered about seeing me? Yeah, whose life can I impact, who can I help? You know, when you're in an academy like this, that you are a really important part of it. Irrespective if you're a fighter, if you're not, you know, we've got guys with Cage Warriors champions and and and you know, future UFC champions. They're not more important than the guy who's working 55 hours a week and gets to jujitsu three times a week. Yeah, everyone's as important as each other because they all play a big part in being in here, and that's you know, that's a really important thing. But I think jujitsu provides also as aside from being the player, uh a third space for you, is it humbles you, it stops you being a dickhead. Because even if you get really good, we understand that like I could be the best guy in the world on that mat, but I've tasted defeat. Yeah, I know that there's sometimes mistakes happen, and it's like I always refer to to a few of the lads in here, and I'm like, Oh, you wouldn't like to have a fight with him, would you? Because even though I know I'd beat him in a fight, I'd I'd come, I'd the outcome would be me winning, but I might not have my nose on my face, or my ear might have gone, or my eye might be gone, and I'm like, you know, it's this mutual destruction, and I know that that's gonna be a cap uh a possibility. That if I walk in the street, I'm you know, I'm I'm very capable with pretty much anyone, but I also know that there's that other chance too that I'm not, and it helps just level you down a little bit, I think, for a lot of people who might have that issue, and not that I ever feel like that, but it's just you know, I'm just saying it as a point, yeah. Uh like the things of the people in the car, you know, you get road rage incidents, and uh it's proven that they're they're like that because they feel safe because they're encompassed in steel and okay, and a car, and they've like, yeah, you're fucking dickhead, I'll kill you, and all this, and then they open the door and they're still carrying on that aggression. And it's like, mate, you couldn't you couldn't box eggs, what you're doing, you know, why are you trying to be this way? It's it's not important. Yeah, I think all that goes when you start training because you realise how weak you actually are, how incapable you are, and it stops that silliness, that egoicness, and that aggression, and it makes you a kinder person, it makes you a nicer person because you understand that you know you don't need to be that way.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:32

I yeah, and and I would I I would certainly, and it's interesting because I'd certainly not probably call myself a martial artist, even though I've probably trained since I was 17. I still flitted on and out of it.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:44

But for me, one of the things when you step on a jiu-jitsu, you might have to be present, yeah, and that's really powerful for me because I think I think that's one of the best things you well, you can't be thinking about other things going on because someone's trying to chalk you around by you, and you're thinking, flipping egg, I need to be switched on here, yeah. Yeah, and you're thinking about the things, so it's difficult to think of anything else other than what you're doing. Like, I think I think I think martial arts and jujitsu is a great tool for everybody to go and do. Um just because like and like you say, it doesn't matter how good you get at it, you don't have to be good at it, you just have to be able to do it. But that's the thing, you know, you don't have to be amazing at it to enjoy it, do you? You've got to you've got to just realise that that's part of the journey, like because it won't matter anyway. No, it doesn't matter how how good you are, no no, you know, what whatever uh level you get to, it doesn't matter because you're just gonna you're gonna end up losing them skills anyway.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:42

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:42

In time, yeah, because you'll become uh old and incapable of doing it. So I would say martial arts, what three things you want to do. Yeah, there's quite a few.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:53

There's perspective, I think you used in there, you know, ability to find perspective. So I guess it's eventually.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:57

I would say uh, you know, read. Yeah. If I was gonna say and read, uh, you know, we think our shit's unique until we read. Right. And you see, so many people are going through, have gone through the things that you're probably going through right now. You could read a book and they'll give you a lot of tips on how they cope with with that problem. Uh, I think reading, I think reading is probably one of the biggest things that I ever recommend to everybody. But not everyone sees it through. They think that they stop reading at 16 and then they don't read again, you know. And I think again, it's because the perspective is taught that they think they have to read in school. Yeah. And as soon as they leave school, they go, I'm not reading again. Or they're reading, you know. I know I know teachers who have been in they teach and they haven't read a book since they've been in university, and they've been a teacher for 20 odd years or something, and I think that's crazy. This is education, these are these books are experiences, and uh you can learn so much from it. Um, I would always recommend people to read because there's so much out there. The the key is just pick up a good book, you know. That's a good book. That's a really good book. Yeah, get a get a good book, you know, that you can find is easy to world your reading level.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:08

I love that because I never read I'd never read a book from start to finish till I was 26. Yeah, I don't think I've put one down since. But for that reason, I found reading really struggling at school, and it was always ridiculed that you're dead slow at reading. So just adopted that persona and never read. And then remember telling my mum I'd read a book. She went, not from start to finish. You finished the book.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:30

I went, yeah, and now, like you said.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:32

Well, that's the thing there, you're going on to the thing of like you don't realise, like, and your mum wouldn't realise what a limiting belief she's implanting in. No, no, exactly. You read the book, yeah, you don't read the book, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:43

And Jesus, but that was said with compassion, but you don't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:46

You know, they're not they're not saying it to begin a lot of the time, they're just saying it because they think that that's and it's like that's where it's important.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:52

Like, I'll say it with permanent here sometimes just because of what you're saying, because you don't realise you're planting seeds, and it's like you know, I don't want to turn it into therapy, but it's you was also the person that when I passed my English exam, she said you're lying. So when I ran with the GCC, I went, Oh, past English. She went, You're lying, what did you really get? And I went, No, no, I've actually got a C and she turned around and went, All right, that's really quite impressive. And I was like laughing, I went, I I don't know how really to respond to that. You know, and even even now at nearly 45 years old, and still reminder at the moment, she went, I was kidding. I went, you weren't at all. You were seeing generative brands that you had, so I'll take the compliment now. One principle you wish every leader, or you could put coach, understood?

SPEAKER_03 1:13:39

Um go on, deep deepen the deepen uh.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:46

So, what's the one thing that we talked really strong around coaching? So, if you if we maybe stay on the coach thing, because I think a lot of leaders can use a coaching style. So, what was one coaching tip or principle that you wish every coach understood? And you might take that from what you've seen in poor coaching and wish they did something differently, or what's the one thing if you were developing a coach in your academy, you would make sure they did.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:15

No question.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:17

Yeah, I think there's lots. I think you know, examples obviously massive. Setting the example and leading by example. Uh you know, I liken it to the kids, you know, do what you say, they'll do what you do. Okay, you know, and setting examples is important in our behaviours and in what we do in our life, in our achievements, and all of those things. I think I think that's important. There's probably gonna be loads of things that will pop up in my head after I'm like, oh, I should have said this, or I should have said that, you know. But uh you know, I think also thinking about like with coaching coaching isn't about me, is it? It's about them. And it's like what's the best you've got to try and sort out and understand behaviours, and that's why coaching is difficult in that it takes time to understand somebody, to understand what's again. I go back to perspective, what's their perspective? Yeah, can you see their life through their perspective and understand how you can shift and change that and see those things? These are all difficult things that you need to do. You need to be empathetic and understand how to try and uh see things from their point of view. I think we're all very stuck on our paradigms and and we have our outlook and that is it, and someone is wrong, aren't they, you know, in in in life, whatever it is. Like you know, you're wrong because you support this politician or you do this, you know, it's wrong. And instead of saying, well, why do you support these guys? Yeah, I think that's probably yeah, I would say that's probably the best. Try and understand someone else's perspective. So like I liken this to um what's what's the guy's name? Uh Tommy Robinson.

unknown 1:16:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:14

Tommy Robinson, again, using the golden mean. Yeah. Right? I try and not judge anybody for whatever view that they have. And even though I'm not saying my opinion on any of what he speaks about, but he's obviously up at that extreme.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:33

And people go, well, he's just racist, and he's just the extreme. And then it's like, well, he might be an extreme, which he is, but why is he extreme? What's his experiences been that has formulated his paradigm, right? What's created his outlook, what's what's made him have a much fast, uh massively different opinion than what I have here. Where is if I'm saying that I'm setting the golden meaning that I'm in the middle, what's his? And it's obvious the experiences that he's had have been very different than my experiences, so it's going to shape his paradigm very different. So instead of me opposing his thought process, I have to try and understand why have you got that thought process. If I can understand that first, well, now I can start changing your programming a little bit, can't I can understand why you're seeing these things because you know his, I think it was, I can't say I'm I I know loads about him, but I think didn't his his cousin get raped and things or something like this. So he went through a lot of bad things in the cultures that were around him, so he's formed that opinion from that experience. I haven't gone through that, so I don't I don't have that negative connotation and that negative thing. I've probably I've probably got biased opinions on other things that I went through that other people haven't and won't ever think. Why do you have that opinion? What was the experience that you had that is making you form this paradigm, see this outlook, see this way, why why do you see it like this? And it's that curiosity ask why. Yeah, you don't know anything, right? And I always think that if as a coach, it's always ask why. But he probably doesn't know why. Yeah, and so you have to try and find it and answers. Yeah. If if you wanted to coach, you know, coaching, uh why? Ask why. And I use I always use that in everything to me. I always try and ask that that question, why and I think I think that can help you be uh a better coach to understand the better, you know, why they have these outlooks that they do.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:41

Awesome. We're nearly done, promise. Okay, last question: how do we turn some of this stuff? So, what actions could people start to be taking to become we can tell this we want. We've had we've gone on lots of lots of little detours on this conversation. It's been brilliant, by the way, so thank you very much. Um, what actions could we do? So it might be around curiosity, it might be around improving self, it might be we talked about reading. Is there any other actions that we believe that people could start today?

SPEAKER_03 1:19:13

Uh well, reading is obviously one where I always say just read because you'll find different yeah, exactly. You'll start to see different perspectives and it'll open up your mind to see different things and understand, just be curious. I will always recommend everyone just be curious, you know, understand and question and quit like question why. People like I talk about the news, uh I eradicated any news out of my life, right? And I don't watch the news, I don't read a newspaper, I I don't listen to the radio. And the odd time it leaks in because you've no choice now, there's it's there's stuff everywhere, isn't there? Right, but I'm like, and why do you want me to think that that thought? Why are you trying to manipulate? And if you look at press, it's just gossip, isn't it? Yeah, you you see this this press, um, and when it's coming from different sides, it's it's the same story but from a different perspective and told differently to try and manipulate your view so it suits the narrative, right? And I think be curious why ask why do you want me to think if I say to you, like, you know, you know, such a body down the road is a bad guy, and it's like, well, why do you want me to think he's a bad guy?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:18

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:18

You know, why is he a bad guy? What is it that he's done? What's the what's what's what's the need? Why do you want me to have that opinion? If you question why someone wants you to have an opinion on something, you know, usually it's because they wanted to manipulate some outcome what suits their own need. I always think asking questions is is always one of the things.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:40

I like that, and I guess that it links back to that moment of when we talked around fear of going recognise it, pause, and then lean into the curiosity, isn't it? Yeah. So if someone wants you to, if someone either you've developed opinion or someone's trying to share an opinion on you, sometimes have a pause moment to kind of take that moment to go, why do I feel like this?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:59

And and ask them. I always have this idea of like, I don't, I don't like like we don't have gossip in here. Like that's I don't read the news, I don't don't watch the news, don't read the newspapers. But also here it's like don't gossip. If you gossip, gossip positively. Speak well of people when they're not here. You know what's the reason that you need to be gossiping about someone?

SPEAKER_02 1:21:17

Just before we wrap up, is there anything else you want to share with our listeners? No, thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:23

Where can people follow you? Uh Instagram, uh pretty much on all socials, I think it's just at coach Tom Blackledge. Yeah. Um we'll stick all the things in the show notes. And you can go to TomBlackledge.com for the website or fightablueprint.com. If you want to if you want to learn fight stuff, you can go to fightablueprint.com. Yeah. And that's like all the that's an instructional video series.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:44

You can go in there and sign up to that, and there's like hundreds of videos on there of different techniques. Or if you want to know about the academy, it's fightablueprintacademy.com.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:52

Yeah, nice. We'll put all that in. Um, and your book, we'll put the link for that.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:56

Yeah, on a book on Amazon.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:58

Amazon and all good local bookshops, isn't it? Yeah. Um, what are you working on next?

SPEAKER_03 1:22:04

So I've been writing the last few years, I've been writing the next book. Nice. Um, which is still, you know, we're still I've probably got about four chapters left to finish to to to formulate up. Um so not too long left, if I'm honest. Uh, but we'll see when.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:22

Have we got um an exclusive date potentially?

SPEAKER_03 1:22:25

Uh no, no date. Uh it'll be this year. Okay, cool. You know, it'll be this year. Um, like I said, it'll be the last little last few little chapters. What I need to do is edit a little bit and then I'll send it to an editor then and then and then we'll see from them. But I think uh it's it's different in style than than fearless, but uh it's all the stuff like I I think anyone who likes fearless will like will like the book.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:46

I look forward to it. Is there any final challenge you'd like to set the audience?

SPEAKER_03 1:22:51

Read my book. No, read yeah, go and read the book, just read. Yeah, you know, it doesn't have to be my book, but I would just say just read. You know, I think you'll uh open yourself up massively if you can just pick up a book and and start reading.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:04

Love it. Tom has been a privilege. Thank you very much. It's a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you.