The Edge of Chaos: Rick Cost on Leadership, Performance & Human Potential

Rick Cost a performance leader on sports science, recovery, leadership, environment design, and helping teams perform at the edge of chaos

What does it really take to build a high-performance environment in elite sport?

In this episode of Unlocking Human Potential, Andy sits down with Rick Cost  human movement scientist, physiotherapist, and high-performance leader working at the top level of world sport  to explore the deeper science and philosophy behind performance, leadership, recovery, and team culture.

Rick shares a fascinating perspective on performance through the lens of entropy: the idea that great environments need enough structure to create safety, but enough disorder to spark innovation, growth, and better thinking. He describes strong leadership as helping people operate at the edge of chaos  where structure ends, but creativity and ownership begin. 

This conversation explores:

• how elite leaders create safe but agile environments
• why values and clarity give people confidence to think for themselves 
• how trust, belonging, and shared leadership unlock better ideas 
• why leaders should guide people rather than over-control them 
• and how performance, recovery, and personal wellbeing must work together over time

Rick also speaks honestly about family, travel, leadership pressure, and the importance of leading by example  including sleep, recovery, and not glorifying overwork. 

This episode is for coaches, leaders, founders, practitioners, and anyone interested in high performance, sports science, leadership, team culture, recovery, and human potential.

About Rick 

Rick Cost, a human movement scientist, physiotherapist, and one of the most respected minds in elite sports performance. With more than 25 years working at the highest level of international sport, Rick has helped shape how teams think about performance, recovery, and the science behind keeping athletes operating at their absolute edge. 

Rick’s career has taken him across Olympic sport and elite football, including leading performance environments at Dutch giants Feyenoord, directing high performance for U.S. Soccer, and today overseeing performance at Olympique Lyonnais in France’s Ligue 1. 

He’s known for bringing together sports medicine, strength and conditioning, analytics, and emerging technologies to better understand the balance between training load, recovery, and injury prevention. 

But beyond the data and science, Rick’s real mission is helping athletes and teams unlock their potential, pushing the limits of performance while protecting the wellbeing of the people behind it.

So today we explore what it really takes to build high-performance environments in modern sport and also some more about entropy of the sun!

Ricks LinkedIn

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:11

Welcome to Unlocking Human Potential with me, Andy Hosgood, a show dedicated to exploring what it really takes psychologically, behaviourally, and practically to help humans thrive through conversations with leaders, founders, coaches, behavioural experts, and people shaping how humans perform and grow. Iz is for you, but if you're a leader, a founder, a business owner, or an ambitious professional who wants to do more than just perform, they want to grow, inspire, and bring the best out in themselves and their people, then keep listening. Because the mission is simple to explore how individuals and teams unlock potential in themselves, in others, and the organizations they shape. Every episode is a deep but relaxed conversation built around three core questions. How do you optimize yourself? How do you unlock potential in others? And the best advice for you, the listener. Now, over to the episode. Really hope you find it helpful and insightful. Just before we introduce our next guest, please make sure you press the follow button to keep updated with the latest episodes. Additionally, special thanks to 246 Photography and Pixel Made Brands for making this podcast a reality. However, the episode. So it's brilliant. So for our guests and our listeners, our guest today is Rick Cost, a human movement scientist, physiotherapist, and one of the most respected minds in elite sports performance. With more than 25 years working at the highest level of international sport, Rick has shaped how teams think about performance, recovery, and science, helping keeping athletes operating at that absolute edge. Rick's career has taken him across Olympic sport, elite football, including leading performance environments at the Dutch Giants Fire Nord, directing high performance for the US soccer, and today overseeing the performance at Olympiak and Lyonnaise.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

Oh Olympic Lyonnais. To be French.

SPEAKER_01 2:45

In France's uh Premier League. He's known for bringing together sports medicine, strength, and missioning, analytics, emerging technologies to better understand the balance between training load recovery and injury prevention. But beyond the data and science, Rick's real mission is helping athletes and teams unlock their potential, pushing the limits of performance while protecting the well-being of the people behind it. So today we explore what it takes to build high-performing environments in modern sport, but also more about the entropy of the sun.

SPEAKER_00 3:18

Oh Lord. Great, great topic. And I think I'm gonna jump in this straight away.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

We're gonna go straight on that.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

Off. I think like it doesn't get any better, I would say, because it's pretty much like from a physical philosophical perspective, um, how everything comes to flourish. And uh one of the the big things about this, and it's definitely not my ownership, but um I want to ask you a question. Okay, and this question is something that I try to uh to get a clear clear answer on. But the question typically is like, what do you think the sun gives to the earth?

SPEAKER_01 4:02

So I may need to confess this. So my to the listeners, my my honest answer initially when I was asked this question. I've the problem is I've done this, you've asked me this question, and so many sense I've spent a lot of time researching it now for this conversation. So um it's about the entropy, the energy that through the entropy and the low entropy that it brings to it, which I which was interesting, and and I'd love to kind of give my understanding of it, and I'd love you to explore for for listeners that are new to it. I was new to it when we first chatted. So it's almost the order, because entropy is the measure of disorder, isn't it? And one of the things with low entropy, it means that it's bringing order, so it's the order of energy that comes to the earth that we kind of then use, create disorder, and then hand back. Have I understood that right?

SPEAKER_00 5:00

Absolutely. In theory, if you would go through nature's laws, we would say everything that goes in comes out.

SPEAKER_01 5:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

So if you put something in someone or in some like a brain, you would expect the same thing to come out. If you put sun and solar energy in the earth, you can measure everything that goes in, it will also go out, and it's zero is zero and one is one. But the fun part is it comes out in a different order. So something along the way happened to this energy. So let's say I have this little seed, and which is the base of a plant. If I would put it in the earth and you would put something in, like nothing really would happen. So somehow, over millions and millions of years, the change of the order of how the energy went into the earth changed the behavior of this particular seed. And it made it possible for that seed to use it and give it away in a different way while you know creating growth. So it was pretty much part of like where I thought if I give something to someone, to an environment, I know that something is going to happen with it, and you want to create certain entropy, you want to create disorder. But it shouldn't be too much disorder because if it's too chaotic, you know, things go wrong. But if you don't change anything at all, it's like what you put in is what you get out. So the creation of this certain entropy is pretty much seen in the behavior of the people around you. And one of the easiest things to do so or to find it is for instance in movement. If you make a jump and it would be a hundred percent correct, then you would have a total stable movement. But pretty much every movement movement has disorder in it, and that's if you can find it, the entropy of that particular movement. If it's too big, you have to make a correction on it. If it's too little, there's no nothing nothing to do about it. So the fun part is this pretty much goes for everything, but it starts with the sun, knowing, and I was surprised that not a lot of people notice the energy that goes in the sun is very linear, but the energy that is measured, like from what the sun, what the earth gives away, gives back to the universe, is exactly the same amount, but it is totally not alike.

SPEAKER_01 7:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

So although it's one-on-one, a lot of things happen in Earth which created life or which created anything around it. So I think the message is like try and create a certain amount of energy or entropy that is exactly the right amount to change the environment that you're in. And the fun part is you have actually influence on this. So I love the concept of entropy in general, and I can talk hours about it. The only thing I know is because it's very philosophical in a way, although it's science, it becomes very messy at some point. Okay, but I think that's with a lot of theories and ideas. But I think this is measurable, so it's sort of somewhat uh objective.

SPEAKER_01 8:27

I love that, and I really love to kind of explore that because I guess my brain went off to develop, you know, part of right down the podcast of where we're gonna get to in the in Shirley, where thinking about developing other people, and for people to grow, you don't want them to think the same time as you, do you? So there's a I I'd move to thinking, I love that kind of philosophical approach, in the sense like you'd done, I think you articulated it lovely, and especially after our first conversation, I was straight on Google and all the other AI tools to learn more, and I found it really fascinating. But I also think that you know, teams, sport, developing others, you almost want a level of chaos, don't you? And in a culture and environment to change an environment to make it better, but like you said, at the same time, you want a little bit of you don't want too much chaos because that's not helpful, but also sometimes people just mirroring back or being the same as you. There's no innovation, there's no change, there's no challenge, there's nothing on. But what we're saying is, you know, so yeah, I think that could be applied, and I really loved when we kind of sit and where that phyllis where that kind of philosophy sits with you, I'd love to see how that kind of appears during the next 50 or so minutes.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

Yeah, and I think I think it's very strong when it comes to that point, like somehow, um, and I and I do like in all fairness, I do not even know what a good manager or a good leader is, but I think you everyone has a sense of what a good leader is. But from my perspective, I would say a good leader is to is able to push the people around them on the edge of their ability, somewhat like the edge of chaos, where the absolute chaos starts, but order like and structure ends. And I think everyone can resonate to that individual who makes a lot of notes, but try to use your blueprint and create exactly the same thing. But it's actually not what a what a leader wants, because you want that individual to use its own mind and be triggered in a way that he or she comes up with a with actually a solution that you never thought about yourself. And I think as a leader, you probably will be most proud of the people around you if they found solutions to answers that you don't have a solution for. And the only way to do it is like to give certain kinds of disorder or entropy. But in order to measure it and to create an understanding and collaboration, there has to be some structure or some kind of uh operational procedure or whatever you want to call it. And the really great leaders, I have the feeling, are not steering someone in a certain direction, they're helping someone in a certain direction that creates this um almost agile mindset of someone to feel the freedom and the safety to pursue something that has never been found before or a solution that no one you know thought about. Uh, blueprinting is easy, but coming up with new solutions pretty much lies in everyone's brain's edge of what their abilities are, but definitely not struggling to go over because then as I mean, you have to pull them back a little bit to order and then again give them a little bit of disorder or ask the right questions in a certain way to push that.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

No, I love that, and I think I've just for clarity where I've gone with that, my brain's gone into well, if you can create a good environment, which is kind of what you were saying, you know, alongside a framework or set of rules. Just like the you know, if we if we're gonna use what you were saying around the sun, you know, it still has to apply to the laws of physics and science. So there's a set of laws and rules, so there can't be so much chaos because there's got to be there's still some things that have got to sit into it. Whereas in any environment culture, but then like you said, enough prodding and poking in the right way. So to they so it feels a little bit uncomfortable. So people then have to develop and grow, and eventually, you know, again, stay on they evolve, but then organizations evolve and grow and develop, don't they? And I think that is and I have to personally put what made me smile about that thinking, it made me reflect quite a lot on myself, which so I appreciate that. Thank you. It's not about me, it's about the listener, but I'll just I'll share where I was at with it. Thinking about moments when you when you hear people that you're working with, either from a coaching perspective or from a leadership perspective, and you hear people that you're supporting, so you're like you're creating the right environment, you're giving that entropy, and then they're they're kind of coming up with something different. You went, Oh, I didn't think of it like that. Yeah, let's do that. You know, that is that's a lovely. So I really appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00 13:29

Um, yeah, but and and also um like the balance, I would say, because people need a safe environment. So you pretty much give them, I would say, like rules, like Mother Nature has rules for you know the entropy entering and leaving the earth. I think the environment that where you're in also has rules and it creates clarity, it creates safety and something to fall back on. So your pillars typically have to be, you know, your values as an organization have to be very strong. And the safer you make it, the more agile, the more agility you can give to the individuals within that safe environment. While if I go back to I would say like 20 years ago, like probably I wasn't able to create safety. So the only thing I did was to create standard operational procedures. And I still swear by standard operational procedures because I love them, because that's who I am. But there are people, there have been people in my life that were able to give me insights of yes, you need that, I would say, ecological system and ecological safety. But if you are following those rules one-on-one, you will never be able to, you know, improve or create something or um like become the artist of your own work. And I think that is where you give slack or take slack a little bit and find out where that entropy lies, and that's why I like the concept of entropy because it's a very small change. Also, I went through situations where um I had conversations with people who are totally free-minded, right? And then was like, oh, I just can't follow this because it's not for me. You know, I would love to be like that because then you can be happy with anything, yeah. But somehow that's that doesn't fit my personality. So to find that limit of free or that that degree of freedom with the individuals probably is is something that's almost like emotional um uh intelligence or so. I don't know. But we try to, I try to measure everything, and I tried to measure everything, and now I try to be more agile, but it doesn't come easy to me. So that's why I love also the concepts around it to justify to myself, ah, so now there is some kind of an order in my disordered um thinking.

SPEAKER_03 15:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

But it's a it's it's it doesn't come easily, it's something I you know I struggle with myself, also. So maybe that's why it resonates to me.

SPEAKER_01 16:01

No, I love that. Um I think what we do is certainly explore that further if you feel comfortable. So just for we always start this podcast with something you're curious about right now. I get a feeling we might have covered that. Is there anything else you're curious about just to feel like I'm giving you the opportunity?

SPEAKER_00 16:22

Yeah, no, I'm curious about so many things, but entropy really is a big thing at the moment. Um, maybe also the the like where I'm in in my life at. But I love, for instance, like um like I love music, and the thing I don't understand is how people like music that I don't like, and the other way around. So somehow there is this like, why do other people think things are cool and other people don't think are cool because our neurological um connections are fairly the same, but somehow something is very cool to someone. Um, and I think it's the same with like why would you like sports and why don't you like sports? So I think I'm more into like you know, that philosophical um time in my life where I start to make sense of out of things that came natural to me. Um, but I think the most the the main thing is um it's really cool to me to see other people becoming happy and coming with the smile to you know, in this case, the club, uh, because that resonates towards the players, and they will be happy if everyone's around you is happy. Um, so yeah, I think that is pretty much like what you know really triggers me, but uh, but it's mainly due to the concept of entropy, I would say. Awesome.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

Well, so for just you, Vic, and for first-time listeners, the the idea of this podcast is to explore, you know, how to how you've got the best out of yourself, or maybe how you get the best out of, you know, how we I've done that, and it sounds like you've been on a journey, so that's be great to explore that. And then and and then how do we get the best out of other people, which I think we've already started to touch on, which is quite cool. And then I think what's quite nice with this is I feel if someone's given us an hour of their time that we help wrap it up, because I think it's always important that we attempt to kind of dissect the conversation and go, okay, so what you know, what what could if I was a listener do with this, and what would be helpful for me to start? So we'll wrap up with that. Um beautiful. So I guess one of the things is you kind of touched on it. You know, I read your CV, we've had a conversation, we've got introduced by JP, and it was one of those things where he was just he's just a lovely man and a lovely connective, and he just said, Look, I think you'll really love this conversation. And I'd have our first comment, you know. And I was looking at you, and one of the things I noticed was you've had an you've had a great career, and then when I was talking to you, it felt like you've been on a journey through your career personally as well. And we can touch on your career if you want. I think the bit for me would be I think if anyone wants to Google you, you know, your your stats talk for yourself on a CV, doesn't it? And it's an incredible CV. If it's alright, I'd like to explore what went internally, what was your internal journey? Because you kind of said, like, I was this person and now I'm I'm at this stage of my life. So, what's happened over this career that is, or what do you think's gone on for you along your journey that has made you unlock potential in yourself along those years? It's a big question, innit?

SPEAKER_00 19:40

Yeah, well, I think I I I think I want to give you an answer, but I think that's exactly what I'm chasing because I don't know. Um, I think the things which I realize is that I I I was a practitioner, pretty much like a big book where I'm reading everything that I can read. I studied like multiple studies, I did so many research topics, I I collaborated with so many people, I invite everyone everywhere where I am just to show, but also to learn from them on what's next. So I think right now I'm again pursuing something uh because I hope to find a limit within myself. Okay, and every time I make a jump into a next role, I'm extremely excited until I'm in the role. Okay, and then I'm like, why is it for other people possible to do this? And why am I not why is it not possible for me to make the next step? Why am I not the CEO of a you know a company? Or why am I and I had my own company, so in some point I was a CEO, but I also was not a CEO, so it didn't feel real. So now I'm like, you know, I'm I'm I'm at this stage of my life where I just want to find out and hopefully I will ever find it. But to be honest, I also come to realization that I have to that I'm chasing something that I probably will never be able to answer. Because if if you asked me the same question 10 years ago, I would say, oh, you know, when I'm 85, I probably would have unraveled sports. And I hope that I have laid a golden egg and saying, like, you know, with data, now I can tell you exactly what's going to happen in the next five minutes, whether it's football or field hockey or waterpot or whatever it is. And now I just realize more and more that probably that's not the answer that I can give, because every year with new insights come new questions.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:50

So I think, and like I'm I know I say I think a lot, and I I hope people don't want to hear like I know, because I just don't know. But I think my next step will probably be somewhere in an area that's going to make me uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

Because I do know that I thrive when things become uncomfortable. And I push others when I am too comfortable, probably in chaos.

SPEAKER_03 22:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:23

So I think that's a shortcoming of myself. Uh, because I'm getting very um a little bit like you know, discomfortable by being being comfortable. So where maybe people would say, Oh, I like if my next role would be like I'm now a high performance director, my next role would be a high performance director in the next club, then I would say, All right, just bring it on, you know, tomorrow is good. And it's not said that I need to leave tomorrow, but if there's a challenge, I'm up for it. And um I think that might be the best answer, is I'm seeking challenges.

SPEAKER_01 23:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

And yeah, not I'm not pursuing anything within me, I'm just trying to be comfortable, and that is by going into a new challenge or finding out what the new challenge is.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

And is that something that if you think through your 25-year or so career, is that the common thread that seems to be that that's all the time it's going on?

SPEAKER_00 23:33

Yes. I I think yes. Um, I think it it broke a lot of trust, for instance, with my family life, okay, where um I am in top sport, and maybe it was me being uncomfortable at home which kept me at home, sort of. And maybe me, and this sounds very, very stupid and strange, but I am going to say it out loud. But um, maybe me not seeing my kids every day made me love them more because when I'm there, I am there, you know, I am all over the place. I I'm there's nothing that can break that connection. But it also is not what people want to hear, because in theory, they want to hear, ah, you need to be with your kids every day. And I want to be with my kids every day, but somehow there is also this place that I put myself in in international football. Um, and that's not in the Netherlands. Although I would love to say to myself, yeah, that's where I need to be. I need to work in the Netherlands. But I also see a lot of restrictions for myself going in there. So I think I think I, in all honesty, and this is probably the most deep I would deep thing I ever said on a podcast. I think I'm just comfortable with being uncomfortable. Okay, and I think that is what I'm pursuing, but it's not what my objective brain wants me to say.

unknown 25:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

Okay. So there's almost that's the putting yourself in that environment. You feel is that a thrive? Do you feel like you perform better than that? So if you're in a comfortable environment, is it a performance thing or is it an enjoyment thing, or what what sits with that or alongside with that?

SPEAKER_00 25:25

No, I think it's a sense of belonging. It's that you can give something to the environment that no one else did before, and to keep it in myself, probably part of my ego. Okay, probably because I I I and this is this is this sounds very selfish, but um, if I would say to you, uh, could you be a chief financial officer? I think I would say yes. And there is only one reason, not because right now I can do it, but I know that I have the ability to understand and learn the job before I will step into it. So, yes, I will need a month, but I will read, I will talk to people, I would understand the environment, I would go and do my utmost to at least come well prepared. So I will not say that I will be the best chief financial officer, but I will be able to create an organized environment. I will be able to help people help me to become the best person in that particular role. And I will just make sure that no one is um, you know, no one thinks afterwards, oh, they're disappointed, so they made a wrong decision. So somehow I love that challenge. Somehow I just love that uncomfortable situation, but it's the only way for me to make a step forward somehow, is do something that I don't know anything about.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

Right, okay. What's the consequence of that to you?

SPEAKER_00 26:56

Um and I think I'm just gaining knowledge. I don't know if there's a negative consequence, I cannot think of anything negative, to be fair. No, because failure is okay. You know, I'm not I'm I'm totally okay with failing. Yeah, I don't really care about failure. I I think they're like, you know, that's just part of your journey as a human being. So I think failure is just one of the things you have to go through. And I think it's almost um it's almost something to me that is like negative if I'm not able to fail. Because, you know, then I didn't try. And somehow you want to leave some kind of a legacy. Maybe it would be I sound very cool to me. Like in um, you know, at some point when I leave this life, I can uh people talk about, oh yeah, but he did such unlogical things, and it was such a good, you know, good human being being able to, you know, push that environment forward, even though it was not his uh domain or specialization. And that's uh we touched on this real early, like, yes, I do not have a master in um in finance or whatever, but you know, I have enough education to understand how to read books. So I can read and read and read, and I can talk to people, and eventually it comes to the environmental situation where you can make the people who are around you and understand if they're good at their jobs by you know just giving them individual development plans. And wherever you are, in whatever situation you are, I don't know if I need any domain knowledge to ask someone to make his own IDP and me just you know, understanding if the goals are uh reachable, yes or no. So I think failure is just part of it, and everything is educationable, you can learn everything. Um so yeah, and now that I'm saying it, probably also some little voice in my mind is like, should I have said this, yes or no? But I think it's just who I am. So I think the answer is yes or no.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

So there's two things that come to mind if the one I'm sharing. One, the word ambitious, and I don't know where that lands, that certainly kind of comes out. But the second one is going, and my little voice in my head was going, Whoa, what a mindset that is it, you know, and unfortunately it didn't have any kind of either Dutch or French accent in mind, but when it was when it was describing it either, um so I'm just curious if can we explore your mindset because you know, and I'm the same, I think failure is certainly something which you know, and I can only talk around my own experiences, then we all can. And it was one of those things where from a very uh young age I remember my and I don't want to blame my dad for it, but remember marking my homework before I took it to school to tell me I got a load wrong to go to the teacher, so that when my teacher went, Oh, you've got everything right, I think, you know I haven't. I've got it wrong 14 times at home. My dad's told me off, and but the teacher was like, Oh, yeah, this is really good, and I and and it and it was all in this like, all right, so actually failing in school, it felt like it was a bad thing to do. Well, actually, that's what school's for is learning, isn't it? And learning comes from getting it wrong and going, Oh, okay, I now know what I got wrong. Next time I'll I'll I'll get it right, which is now with a teenage daughter, it's so you know it's the trying to encourage that because what happens if I get it wrong? You might well then you know what the right answer is. So you just you you know that's part of the learning journey. Where's that mindset come from, Rick?

SPEAKER_00 30:54

I don't know, but I think um probably like it has to be some within nature or nurture, somewhere in the middle there. Uh obviously, I I learned a lot about these topics, so I I I think um if like you you touched on school. So one of the things that was a really big learning moment for me as a person was uh it was in biology class, and um it was they they gave a test and it was like pluses and minus. So if the answer was correct, you need to do a plus, and if the answer was wrong, you need to draw a minus. So I had, I don't know what the grade was, but it might have been like a six and a half. So in the Netherlands, it's between uh a zero and ten. So it might have been like a six and a half, and I felt like you know, I deserve more than this. No reason why, but I just thought that. So we discussed that, and then you know, after the fact, I um said to the guy, I said, Hey, listen up, there's like you know, three questions that you scored wrong in here. And I knew I used the same pen to make a minus into a plus. So um he said, Well, I look into this. So far, so good. Nothing is normal, like this is very normal. But then the cool thing was the next day I came back in school and he said, Rick, I want you to come over for a second. So I came over and he used a microscope and he showed me that you know, all my pluses and minuses, the plus in my the die changed. You saw that the line was over the minus. Well, I my natural behavior was to put the the stripe, vertical stripe under the minus. So he just you know he educated me on that moment, like not to be wrong, but how to outsmart someone, yeah, because I thought I was a smart kid. But he obviously did this like a thousand times, but I never thought about like oh, maybe he comes back with this. So this was the first time that I, by failure, learned if I do like you know, do something, I need to understand the consequences, and that's when I started to create like to learn a little bit more for certain things, or I start to be more prepared. So, one of the things I really go well with is I always come prepared. So before this podcast, I went through all the things that I wanted to yesterday. We obviously shared an email, and I don't know if there's anything different than anyone who sent me that email, but it did share my concerns, and I said, like, these are the elements that I will probably be emotional about, and these are so I try to be prepared and come prepared so that you can expect, know what you can expect from me. And the same thing counts for every meeting. I am probably here in the company, well, at least in the sporting side of it, the only person who always sends an agenda ahead of a meeting that's happened because I am always well prepared, and I trust that my preparation at least comes to a certain level that I can talk about every topic. Um, and if I don't know the topic, I'm starting reading things about it or start to read, like do research or or learn research about it. So I think that is one of the mindsets is just be always come prepared. I think the second one is build out of curiosity. Like a person can never be too curious, and I will always be curious. And I don't know why, but that's just how I am. I think we have we have interns anywhere. I'm asking just just them just the uh uh the same number of questions that they ask me. Because first of all, I think it's very polite, but second of all, even an intern, I can learn from an intern. You know, we have a guy now who comes from rugby. Like, yes, I know a little bit of rugby, I have some friends in rugby and high performance, etc. But it's not like I know the game. So the first question, I was like, if you you're here now for two days, so what do you notice that is different than in rugby coaching and rugby training? And we had this great conversation about it. So I think curiosity is the other one because it helps me to push towards like this environment is unknown to me, but it's known to other people. So the first thing that I need to do is learn and educate myself about this, and that's what I do with pretty much everything. And I I am very lucky to have the ability that I can also store it in my brain. Um, I think, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:22

No, that was so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:23

Well, I'm sorry, go for it.

SPEAKER_01 35:24

No, it's you know it's just uh I was just reflecting, but really, and then if it's helpful, just it it was there's that there's definitely a real strong kind of thread of you know wanting to learn. I think I love the story of you trying to cheat, and then and then and then your teacher saying, Oh yeah, you think you're smart. I'll show I I'm gonna use some science and I'm gonna show you more data, you know, which is you know, I'll show you data, you know. I love that, and I think it's and I think it's the you know, I don't know what age you were, but it's still quite a big impression when you were telling the story. You could the I could see you really reliving that moment, you know, which is lovely though, isn't it? Because there are, I think if we give ourselves time to stop and reflect, you know, and actually there are moments of our lives, our careers at whatever age there are kind of standout moments where you go, oh, actually that has really shifted, you know, the dial of going, okay, so what you know, what has this got from that? And I got the impression from that moment, you were like, right, okay, so almost being a bit more curious, a bit more open, a bit more educated is actually gonna well one, hopefully you don't get caught cheating again, which I don't know if we should go move down that pathway or not, but you know, but all obviously there's that there's a really underlying there's a learn, there's a very long I know you use the word curiosity, and and I think there is that, and I guess there's this, but knowledge seems to be and storing knowledge, and if you've got that ability to store knowledge, and and especially if you can kind of regurgitate it and retain it, and that that's superpower on itself, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 37:17

Yeah, I don't know. I think I just I don't know how I do it or whatever I do it, and it's definitely not that I store everything, you know, because that would be too much. But I am like even now, I have a pen because even now I thought maybe I learned something from this and I can write it down, which brings me back like tomorrow, and maybe I can use that. So um it's not often that you have to have the chance to really go in detail about elements and conversations. So I think that is just something that I try to link a lot of things, and I I use a lot of um like parallels. It's not like the exact knowledge that I will remember, but I just like entropy, you know, it just gives me, it brings me to the environment where I'm like, oh, this helps me and my environment to move forward. But it also obviously comes with a toll. It's not always good because one of my major drivers, I think, is it's excellence. But the problem with excellence, it's I don't know if it's good, to be fair. But it is something that I have to be very realistic about that is part of me. So I have to live with this peace where something less than excellent is just not good enough. And the difficulty is that the people closest to you, you expect the same excellence, which is not possible. But the people who are on the working floor, they have somehow some slack because they collectively can create excellence. And they are, and this sounds very hierarchical, it's not meant like that, but they are under my supervision. So I feel that it's me who needs to help them to create that excellence and they can make mistake after mistake because I can look into myself. Did I do a good job? Yes or no? But that is obviously a high cost at points, because not everything is me, just like not everything is someone else. Like you know, if two file two uh bones fight for a bone, uh, it's the third guy who takes a good idea and and and gets the bone. So you you you can't only always fight about who's right or wrong, but it's about like I don't know if ownership is always really good. So I don't know if that's an actual driver, but it is something that I have to deal with as a person.

SPEAKER_01 39:39

How much time do you spend reflecting on those kind of because I think it's great that we're always driven and we're always aiming for excellence, of which I mean as a podcast as well, you know, how do we define what that is and how does that benchmark always is gonna be? Is there ever a line where that we ever get to that or is it always moving forward? Which is high performance sport though, right? That's the environment, isn't it? It's always trying to push the boundaries and create you know better and better. That's the challenge of uh all the time, you know, and I guess you know, how do you how do you then stop and reflect while driving forward? I guess that would be my question. Because I think there's a lot of people, don't there, that we don't take the time to say, actually, I'm at a point of excellence now.

SPEAKER_00 40:37

Yeah, I think that is probably goes back to the question, like, what is my next step? Because I think um at some point you just realize that the environment doesn't move as fast as you are in your brain. So um I make this thing, obviously, like you know, my boss is a CEO, so I am not like the final stage in the process. Okay, so if I would take everything and be curious all the time and be excellent all the time, every day I'll put a little box in front of the door. But if the door doesn't open because that person doesn't move in the same speed, after four weeks, I have like a whole pile of uh of boxes and nothing is done with it. So you also try to figure out like, you know, where does it stop? And I think the difficulty in these cases is like, all right, how do I still work with those ideas while moving forward instead of just moving places again into a different environment? Because every time you run into the same situation, so stop and reflect for me is actually going into totally different environments and areas instead of staying in my environment, because that was very frustrating over time. Even like I have this utopia image of when I was in Olympic sports, and everything was better. But at the time, the budget was super, super small, so it was not better. Maybe the mindset was better, but not like you know, everything around the mindset, like from um like equipment and materials. We didn't have anything, so it was not better, and I was a lot younger, so at the time it felt like ah, we're doing something good, but you know, the me from now is definitely different. So reflecting lies in driving in my car to the Netherlands to see my kids, listening to murder podcasts instead of meta podcasts. Yeah, it's like because though they're super smart people who are learning things about how can you look back 15 years ago and educate yourself on a situation that was there before. So they come up with solutions that I never thought of. So I'm also thinking like, ah, you know, there are solutions in different areas, but it never really stops. But it gives me a little bit of slack about the environment where I'm in, and it offers me options to think about you know my future and and and see, like, um, all right, maybe I'm not that strange in my thought process, or maybe I'm not that alien in where I want to move forward to, or maybe I'm not the only one who thinks about this. Um, because I think, and I think you spoke about this in other podcasts also. Um, although I'm not the end stage in the company, like there's only one person above. So, where do you go next? You know, it's like very lonely here. Like, I don't speak the language. Um, I cannot be best friends with the people around me, just like you know, I don't have enough peers to do that. And the peers that I have, I'm challenging them so much that I don't even know if they like me. Um, and then you also have, you know, the um Um yeah, where do you take your problems? So I'm not saying that I'm at the top, but at least like from a social perspective, I cannot take it anywhere. And I think that's where coaching comes into place. But to find someone who understands you, it's finding a needle in a haystack. Because I think at some point you just reach that moment that you are a little bit strange, but it also is very much who you are, and accepting that is super complicated. And I think that is probably what the reflection is about nowadays. Realizing that, you know, I just have to accept. And I just have to reflect on the things that actually are good. And I just don't know yet whether maybe I'm just too young to know and understand that, but it is my it is where I I stand still and find out what excellence actually means. Instead of saying, oh, this is not good enough, this is not good enough, that's not good enough, there's not good enough because it doesn't help you.

SPEAKER_01 45:16

Wow. Okay, I've got a few questions. Is that okay?

SPEAKER_00 45:19

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 45:20

So just for clarity, I just need to retract just for clarity for listeners. You are researching murder podcasts because you like the detectives that are catching the murderers and looking at the investigators rather than rather than the other way around, yeah, and how to become one, just for clarity, because well, for sure, 100%.

SPEAKER_02 45:39

I'm not being a murderer on the I just thought I'd just add some clarity to this because I was thinking more of the investigation.

SPEAKER_01 45:48

Because my so in my previous world of physio, when I was yeah, practicing physio, my first mentor, basically that's how he described physio. It says, You're just a detective, it and that's how he actually so when you were saying that I really resonated with me, but I was just I'm sure for listeners that just to clarify that there's no murder, yeah, yeah. I thought I felt that it was important just to put that out. Um, but also I think what I you know, I get the impression, and I'd be curious where this lands, you you're very self-aware, and there's a lot of you know you're obviously a very emotion intelligent man in the basis that you're very self-aware. You mentioned a few things saying, like I can't remember the word, but you said strange. I I would describe it, I always describe myself as well. We're all a bit weird, aren't we? It's just I've just become comfortable with my nuances of what weird is, and I'm cool with that. And I think um, and I got the impression that's what you were alluding to, with that you know, you're coming to the point of going, I am who I am, and actually coming to conclusion that is just that part of me is that part of me, and but you can still that part of you that has been really successful and got you some really good things, and still, you know, driving you forward to become a CEO if that is where you want to go, or whatever looks next, you know, those kind of things. But I get the impression also the part of you can be when you've driven home, you've you've read, you've looked at your med detective podcast on the way back, and then you step into the view. And you alluded to earlier how when you with your kids you can be completely present and be dad, and I think it's a skill, isn't it? That you can you can tap into the different parts of us, and that part of going, I can be dad, and actually don't think about work and I don't think about high performance, and actually just I'm sure you're still trying to be as competitive as possible when they all want to. Should we play a board game? Are you sure? Are you gonna play excellently? I know in our household it is.

SPEAKER_00 47:54

It is, and I think yes, it is definitely weird, but it's also very I think it's just difficult for other people to understand. I just I just settled myself with that. Uh oh one anecdote was um I was previously at US soccer and I flew around the world all the time. And um, at some point we had the Olympics in France. There was a World Cup of the women under 20 in Colombia, and then there was a shooting incident with our under 19, uh, under-17 uh women in uh no men, uh boys, if I'm correct, in um in Mexico. But then we also had a coaching issue with the under 20 uh boys in Tokyo. So I flew, uh my home base was Chicago at the moment. So I flew all these things within 10 days. And at some point I was uh standing in front of, I think like, I don't even know, a thousand people in um in Spain, and I felt this thing in my uh in my ribcage. I thought like, all right, this is very strange. And I was like, you know, I needed to talk about like 40 minutes, so I was like short, like shorter and shorter breathing. Um, and after that, I went to the restaurant with I probably have his kidney stone or so, you know, and I went to the restroom, um, you know, went back to the hotel to lay down. I couldn't lay down, but then there was this social event that evening, so I was still into the social event. Um, and then went back and I thought, like, all right, maybe I need to fly home. I don't know why, but I maybe need to fly home. And then because I don't want to go here, I'm I there's probably nothing wrong with me. I'm just, you know, I'm just I'm just okay, but this is something small. So I got into a plane. On the plane, it was absolutely horrible. Like the pain was just like I just couldn't barely take it. Arriving back in the Netherlands, took the car, myself went to the hospital, and then uh realized that I had a uh pulmonary embolism with over 45. Um, how do you say it? Like uh in like uh pulmonary infarcts, and it was stuck in my heart. So my gosh. So I said, like, I don't want to stay here. So they gave me this injection and everything got resolved. I was all fine. I needed to stay. And then the next day I uh I went back home and I was playing football with my kids on the uh, you know, somehow I got this energy to still do it, and I felt actually pretty good. I didn't feel I had some pain, but it wasn't like crazy. So I played football with my kids. Um stayed there for like uh because I couldn't travel for uh four weeks, so uh because I wasn't allowed to. So got back to America and then my dad was very sick at the moment. So then I I got to a doctor, which was very much very well arranged. Um, and they looked back on the scans and they made a new scan, and he said, Rick, did you actually go on a plane with this? And then the next day you were playing football with your kids because you had an embolism of five centimeters, and it was stuck in your heart. So if something would have happened, you would not have, you know, wouldn't have survived this because you they would do they could not do any CPR with you because it's a lump. And typically you need like two, three, four weeks to actually get over this. So how did you how were you able to do like the next day? I think, and it's not sad that this was a good thing because it made me realize how relative everything is, although it might be something, you know, it's almost like a buzzword. Uh it's like, you know, you you get um very conscious of like what life means, etc. But um I think my kids at that point just gave me so much positive energy that I didn't really think about everything else. Because the only reason why I was there, I went back to see my kids. Yeah, and I think that is the strongest thing that you can have as a human being. Um, I called my mom, my dad was very sick, and she broke. And that's also the reason why I said, like, I need to travel less, and I need to come to Europe. If that wouldn't have happened, I probably would have stayed in America. Um, because it was a realization moment on so many different topics. It was obviously about like how um how you say it, like uh what my kids mean to me, what it means to me to see them more often, but also how you know how how um short life can be. And I wish I never went through this because this is just, you know, I think for the people around me and myself, it wasn't a great thing to go through. But on the other side, it also made me realize so many other things. Um, but it's not said that you can, you know, be like this if you don't go through some kind of life-threatening event because that doesn't make sense. But it did give me a different perception, and yes, that's why I went to like detectives instead of always listening about like listening into psychology or listening into like educational things or maybe like sports science, because that's what I was doing all the time. Okay, so I need to have like a fresh mind instead of like a fixated mind on getting knowledge and more and more and more and more because why am I doing this? I don't know. And that's also when I think like the entropy thing really starts to resonate, and how I really realized like ah, you know, it's not the literal thing of life, it's actually the parallels in life that bring you to a next step, yeah. And um yeah, it was just this big realization moment. And I know I'm like I went on a different top, big different topic, but uh but I think it's a million, but I firstly, wow.

SPEAKER_01 53:48

Um you know that's yeah, I can't but I can't even imagine what it was like for you and your family to find that out, and especially when you were landing, you know, someone pointed it out to you. Again, it comes back to I think this the strength of your mindset that, like you've said, you know, the doctors four weeks later are saying you shouldn't have even flown, and he's like, but you're playing footy with your kids, it shows the the kind of you know, the strength, but I think also like I the interpretation I got was the how you then there was a bit of a realization going right okay, I might need to take my foot off the gas just a little bit here, because actually keeping the you know it on all the time can sometimes be a little bit, and maybe that was a the warning shot. That's what it felt like when you were telling me the story for me. Um if we could I think sorry for jumping in.

SPEAKER_00 54:42

Good, go for it. I think the thing is somehow, if you're in a leadership role, you always think it's super cool to do more, or oh, I'm working like you know, 14 hours a day. No, it's super cool. Oh yeah, but you're always kinder to your the people in your team because if someone is sick, you say, Hey, take the day off, don't worry about it, we'll solve it, you know, and hope we like we're not in a situation because I think the people who are listening to this are very curious people. I hope they're not in a situation like, oh no, they have to be here because I think it's necessary. No, you know, every everything and everyone, you know, is in a situation where you can where you have to take care of others. But I think the main thing is it's actually pretty cool to take care of yourself also, because that is key.

SPEAKER_01 55:32

Do you know what it's it's I love the fact that we've come to this, and I've not love the fact that you've had to go through this to come to that conclusion, by the way. I think it's so important, and you know, for me I I used this on a on a pod the other day about this that analogy of why you put your own on an aeroplane and turn around to put your own mask on first before others. Because if if you're not looking after yourself, then I also think you touched on it earlier that people are you know it's lonely at the top and everyone's looking up at you, and I think that comes as a leader or a parent, but also there's an element of going culture and environment where if you're working 14 hours and you're always learning and you don't take a day off, then that's almost like okay, that's is that what I should be? And role model, and I think that's where the dangers can happen, can't it? You actually set you can you can at times, I'm not saying you do it consciously, but very unconsciously because that is who we are, and you know, I've been self-employed for almost 25 years. I don't know what a day off looks like because even though I'm not I might be sat beside a pool like you, I'm reading something, and my brain is ticking, going, Oh, I can apply that, I can apply that, can apply that, I can apply that. Because I just I I do not know how to do that, and but it is tiring, isn't it? Within it, you know, and I I'd you know, I had to I had to pick up a fiction book.

SPEAKER_00 57:03

Well, that's the thing, and because I think the problem is, which might be a little bit different, for me it's not tiring, everything gives me energy. It's so strange, you know. I would love to have the feeling of being fatigued. I don't I don't know what that is. I do know what it is after you know doing like a marathon or um or doing a really big gym session because somehow I'm fatiguing myself. But even then, like um yesterday I was I think it was 1 a.m. that I stopped writing my book. And then I woke up this morning at 5:30 and actually think, all right, let's just go to work. But then also realizing, and I think Roger Ferris said this, I think like a week ago, or maybe there was a note cited a week ago, he said, like, I'm sleeping 12 hours a day. So why do we accept this with top sport environments? And we say to people, like, oh, you have to sleep eight hours, six sleep cycles, this is what we have to go to. Here's your ordering. We're going to track you, we're going to give you advice. And the people who do it don't do it themselves. And I think that is also where you just as, and I don't want to say that I'm a leader, but at least in my position, I think it's extremely important to lead by example because it's one of the I think management competencies to be able to lead by example. But it doesn't mean doing more or working harder, it's also about being smarter, yeah, and also about taking care of yourself. Because how can I say to you, oh, you have to eat really good while eating fries every day? That's just not possible.

SPEAKER_01 58:35

Yeah, I mean that, and that's that, and I think it exists, on it, that hypocritical leader, you know, or the you know, personally.

SPEAKER_00 58:42

But aren't we all a little bit oh a hundred percent?

SPEAKER_01 58:46

Well, again, it's it I think it's being aware and acknowledging it. You know, I my my classic I use all the time, and I go, look, you have to become patient. And I said, now I also say the caveat to this is I'm not mastered how to be patient, so don't ask me for any advice on how to be patient because it's something I've still not mastered, and it's on my master list at some point, yeah. But it is something that you know you have to do. So I think, but again, it comes back to for me anyway, is being aware and owning what our flaws are, or are or our you know, the the bits of us that are a bit what uh you know, but our weird parts or whatever you want to describe it, I call it the the flaws that we've all got. I guess just to think about how we get the best out of others. I'm conscious that I mean this is uh we knew this was going to be a conversation of which we could go on for three hours. I'm just conscious for a listener that's given some time aside for this, and maybe there's a part two if you'd be if it'd be privileged to have some in a part two. How does that impact? Because, like you've said, you you know, I get this impression that you you're driving forward, you love learning, you this whole thing of going excellent, okay. Well, you give me, you know, you want me to write, you want me to write some financial reports, not a problem. Give me a day, I'll I'll I'll I'll do some research and not a problem, I'll box it up.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:12

Or a month, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:14

Month, okay, yeah, four weeks, yeah. Okay, yeah, but still like there's there's probably people have gone to university for years, and I guess the part for me is then how does that when you know that is you and there's almost an expect how do you manage that expectation of others? Because you know, you are your mindset is so strong and so good, and not everyone's gonna be similar to you. So, how how does that help, or how do you manage that with other people?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:40

Yeah, so to what I try at least is um, so I'm doing a couple of things, and this is where my standard operational procedure perspective comes back, and the philosophy to pretty much goes away. Um, within my standard operational procedures, there's two things that I find extremely important. One is having an idea where the environment is from a maturity perspective. So are you like a young company or are you a very old company and have do you have everything in place or do you have nothing in place? And within that, there is this uh element of individual development. So every individual here, and I'm learning about these individuals by going through an individual uh assessment, but I just asked them so if these are the services you have to deliver, what are the topics that you find are your strengths and weaknesses, and where do you want to learn or what do you want to give? So giving them a sense of belonging, maybe because myself I'm always looking for a sense of belonging. So maybe there's a little bit of me into that. Yeah, but I realize that people want to finish things, they need to be able to finish things to be successful and have a sense of that they're actually doing something which was good for the environment. So I think that is one of the things is like make letting people, letting my, you know, the people in my team make their own individual development. It's not me telling them, I'm just helping them to guide them to find the right things. And then there is this thing which is pretty much like a priority list. And I'm going to ask them like, what's the burden that you have to put into this? And what's the actual influence or um you know the expectations you get out of it? So if you have a low burden, high impact thing, go for it today. Don't even wait because you know this will happen. It doesn't cost you a lot and you'll have a lot of impact. But if you know that the burden is very heavy and the impact is very small, I would say to them, all right, maybe we have to put this on the long run. Maybe that's not for now because you will not be successful. And a lot of people, a lot of maybe this is not really fair to say, but a lot of managers or leaders are pushing individuals on high burden, low impact things. And then you will never reach that particular goal. But if you understand that whoever is in your team is able to reach something, they will be able to have, you know, big gains, high impact of the environment, and trust them to do it. And an example, in my case, an under-15 sports scientist who does a certain research and the implementation is not only in the under-15, but it's in the under-17, the under-19, the under-21, and also the first team, the proud that this individual has is you cannot, you know, you cannot reward that in money or anything else. This is just something that they can be very proud of. And then also giving them the responsibility to say, oh, you did such a good job. There's a summit next week next week. Are you able to go for it instead of me taking, you know, stealing their thunder and going for it? So I try to give every individual in the team a clear direction, but the agility to create their own goals and their own high impact um environment, but also have the ownership that they are part of the development of the broader organization. And there's so much else to it, but I think this is pretty much the summary of how I would you know support the people in my team. Um and there's one other thing that I always say to them that is, every individual in the room has great ideas, and it's almost a I do not know the English word for this because I'm Dutch, but I think a felony if you don't share your ideas, because maybe the club misses out on something great because you thought you were not able to say it. And that's where I create, hopefully create the psychological safety of everyone being able to say whatever they have in their mind with a you know, like a chance of having this great impact on the environment. And that's when people surprise you because there are people who we don't even know, have great ideas, so we just never give them the chance to share it. And I think that's where the sense of belonging, and maybe it goes back to me finding my spot in the food chain, creating more you know, influence and belonging to the environment. But I think uh that's probably what I what I would say is the key of how I try to manage the people around me as good as possible.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:33

I really love that, and you know, I got a sense when you were also saying it, that I felt a level of pride in you. You know, I don't you're in Leon, I'm in the northwest of it, but I could feel this pride for that that sports scientist for what he'd achieved and then was gonna go on. You smiled doing it, so it just made me kind of think, Well, actually, but you can't you know, if he I can just imagine him receiving that information to say, Well, you've done this much, you might as well just go and present that. You know, you can imagine that that one, probably the fear of going, what? But also the second of going, well, you trust me with this. You know, that's that's a lovely environment. But also, I think that says, Well, for me personally, and I can only answer for me with the listeners who tell us if they agree, which I think they would. A lot about you, and I think you know, I always link it back to I always link it back to the fact of, you know, and it's my interpretation of this, so feel free to kind of challenge or push back. But I I I get the impression that because you are comfortable with yourself, flaws and all, okay, that you know, and you are aware of your drive for excellence, and you're aware that not everybody is similar to you, and the fact that you then goes, Well, it is about the individual and create the individual plan, and you're you know, that will definitely come across, but also the fact that you're comfortable with the the information that goes on you might be the the intern, but you actually you might add something we didn't even know think about, and actually the value to that could be we take the whole organization better or we could perform better. And what's interesting, I interviewed Garin uh Gavin Pratt from the the Performance Institute over in the UFC, yeah. And he used okay, so he used the the line um everyone's king of something, and it's exactly the same. He was saying, look, you never know who's gonna come up with the idea that actually might change what we do. So actually being comfortable creating a you know an environment where anyone feels that they can say anything they want to do, um, I think it's really important, and I think a lot of lessons can be learned from that from all organizations, whatever the size. And sometimes it is from a leader's perspective or you know, performance directors' perspective. It's how do you get out your own way and you know park your own ego for that moment as well, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:14

I think so. I think like to the point, like everyone's king of something. I think like one thing that I try to push for everything is like creating an environment of shared leadership responsibilities. It's like everyone is a leader in his own area, and sometimes it's not about what you know, it's about what you bring to the table. It's about you know an idea that sometimes is outside of out of the box. That's the alien in me, because maybe it is because I like people to learn listen to me. Um, maybe because it didn't make sense, but it was just a great solution, but I never get the chance, and that's also here, you know, because we still are people, and if we can trigger someone's um curiosity, or if you can trigger someone to say, like, hey, you know, this might be an area that I'm interested in that goes beyond all books that that person read, because sometimes, you know, you just don't know what you will understand better than someone else, or someone that you can something you can be a specialist in. And it would be such a shame if you do not open up as a manager for something that lies outside of someone's actual domain, but could be a really good solution for something. And I don't know if this is something for the future for people or something on the future of sports, but um, I think that is just one of those elements that we can be way more curious about. It's just curious of someone's brain and not about what they learned in school.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:44

Yeah, I love that. And and I think those environments, and and I don't know if you've ever witnessed this.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:49

I mean, I I do a lot of team facilitation work, and what's very interesting is when you create the right environment, sometimes because we've created an environment and a the the person says something, and as they're saying it out loud, they're surprising themselves, so it's like as they're listening to themselves actually coming out of the idea, they're going, This is a really good idea, and I'm saying this out loud and listening to myself, and it'll land and we'll go, Yeah, that's great, and they'll go, I don't know where that come from.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:20

And it's you know, and and I find it a lot with in a coaching situation where people all if you can create the right environment in a place where actually it's okay to expand your thinking and say things like you said, you know, and that's that's where it resonated and made me smile a lot because I think I've seen that, but it's just that moment where I see them talking and then everyone looking, going, Oh yeah, that's really good. And then the person said it is realized, oh gosh, that's I've actually said that. But I think and again, I love the way you then you know, you then also turned around and said, like you were that person in the room at one point that you know that had that idea, but might not have either been had the opportunity to speak out, or the right, well, the the culture wasn't right, or you weren't it wasn't invited, or whatever was going on, and so that you know you've now taken that experience now forward to when you're in a position where you can do that, that other people can do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:16

I love it. I think it is also because you just learn so much about your own situations and behaviors. And one of the things is I I think like nothing really came like you know easy to me. So I always had to work very hard, I always had to chase things. I had my own physical therapy practices and needed to sell them because of like COVID situation. I was um, you know, in field hockey, I was in handball earning 400 guilds a year um while also working in other clubs just to make sure that I would be able to come around. So it didn't feel like um, and I wanted to have that manager that made it a little bit easier for me, who could say, oh, this is good enough, or come on, what's your idea? And I will actually listen to you. I want that person to understand that I, in my brain, things worked out really well, and not saying after 10 years, oh, you see, I was right, because that is a very poor thing to say as a manager. But the fact that that happened to me and I could only tell it to myself makes me help others make it a little bit easier for them to open up their ideas because I understand, I think I understand the feeling of having an idea, but not being able to open up. So I think because of the struggles that I went through, I want to make the life of the people I'm managing a little bit easier to where at least I have influence on putting, like, you know, making them more successful or putting them in situations they don't know by internal promotions and not hiring from bottom-up, but hiring bottom uh uh sorry, uh top-down, but hiring bottom-up, you know, because you want to hire someone on because internally, if I do a good job, the sport scientist will become the lead sport and scientist, and we can hire an assisted sport scientist. So that's on me. That's my responsibility, and that is where you know, I just want to make the life of the people in my teams a little bit easier, knowing that they can be successful by surprising themselves and therefore surprising the group and everyone else, because eventually everyone can do whatever they want as long as you know the delivery is within the goals that they set.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:34

I absolutely love that. Absolutely love that. It makes me smile, just listening to it. That's amazing. So I'm conscious of your time and listeners, so we're gonna move to the advice for them. If that's alright, so we'll start to wrap it up. So curious, because that seems to be a good theme of this conversation. Three practical things that people could try today. So thinking about what we the the kind of the themes that have gone through the conversation, what are three practical things that listeners could could start today?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:13

I think first thing for me, and we spoke, we touched on it really briefly, but I think it helps if you're in an environment. Make a maturity assessment. Okay, have an understanding of where you objectively can measure where your environment is relative to where you want to take it. So if you set the maximum of this is the max we need as a five, and the minimum is everyone individually works on something as a zero, and you just go over all the major services you have to deliver and score them one to five. You just know how you have to manage the environment. If there's a three or a four or a five or one situation you're in. And there are so many books about like creating maturity assessments and also managing certain maturity levels. But I think that is very strong because it gives you the security and make goal making very, very easy. Um, I think that's the first one. The second one is let the individual in your team make their own IDP, their individual development plan. Yeah, don't set goals for them, but trust them to make the right goals and help them to make the right goals because you will see the first time that you will do this, this exercise, you will get horrible feedback and horrible goals because it they've never done this before, maybe.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:40

So help them. You cannot be clear enough. So make time for them and make sure that it's one, two, three meetings, maybe, and then they will be super proud after your first you know, six months review and then a year review, that they were actually able to reach those goals and give them the slack to change, you know, in between into oh, this was unreachable. But if I do this, this, and this, I think I can be successful. Um, I think that's the second one. And the third one from a management's perspective, within curiosity and within, I would say, the edge of everyone's ability. Um try to learn and understand what the qualities are that you have in-house. Don't think you know, the neighbor has a better sport scientist or a better data analyst or maybe a better personal assistant. But first be curious and understand why there are certain elements that you are not aligned on. And if this person is not good enough, for sure you can move on and say, like, we're going to hire someone else. But first understand the qualities that you have in-house. And maybe someone is not in the right place, and maybe the place is not the right uh environment for that individual. But sometimes people will surprise you about what they can do if you are more clear with them. So I think those are probably the three most practical things. And then, you know, they're pretty easy to do actually, but it will cost time, but management costs time, and you know, creating a positive mindset for everyone and say the environment will cost time. And um, from there on you can dive into all every different areas, but I think you have to have a starting point.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:31

No, I think uh I really love that. What one principle do you wish every leader understood?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:39

Obviously, the principle of uh entropy because it's just so strong. Yeah, if you are able to give the exact amount of disorientation to the or disorder to the environment, you will thrive, but you won't thrive by milests, but you will thrive by small steps towards the future. But over a 10-year uh time span, you will see that you can take your company to like crazy levels because there are only, I don't even know, one, two, three companies that were successful with disruptive changes, but typically it's small changes that made an environment very, very strong. And that were because not everyone can you know follow in the same level, but if you make steps, you know, I think JP said like the one percent gain every day. I don't know if that's actually reachable, so I want to be a little bit conscious of that one percent over a hundred days, also a hundred percent, so you have to double your skill, you know, on the days. I don't know if that's possible, but at least you know, if you take, I would say, the standard landmark of like five percent every week or two percent every week, but you consistently disrupt the environments with small entropy, small changes, you will see that everyone can follow. And the people who are not able to follow, you can push them by giving them attention into that particular growth environment. And at some point, maybe you become so mature that you know some people will fall off and you need other people because that's normal. Yeah, but I think the concept of entropy and understanding what that change is that you're making to the environment is very strong and it becomes bigger than coincidence.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:33

Yeah, I love that. And I think there's that there's an element around, did not Google give they had their approach, didn't they, where they said 20% of all the that you could just work on your own project? And the idea being is that you know that's how a lot of the new products were made because they just could they trusted the staff, and I think it's a big thing, isn't it? And I think it's certainly I'm certainly witnessing a shift across a lot of different organizations of where it was just you'll do this exactly how, and now we are starting to learn and trust. And I think this the idea of entropy of going actually let's give you a little bit of a challenge, but a little bit of trust in the right environment for you to then you know push yourself into some unfamiliar or chaoticness. I love that. Um so action, what could what actions could people take? Kind of some practical thing. Is there any other actions that you believe that people could be doing today?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:29

I would say just don't wait for tomorrow. You know, there's no reason. We say in the Netherlands, don't wait for tomorrow for the things you can do today. Because if you have an idea, the strongest idea is in the moment, it's not like you know, for tomorrow. And of course, if it's night, write it down and you will be able to do it tomorrow. But if you say to yourself, it's very simple, it's like movement, like, oh, I want to do sports, but I'm starting next week. It will never happen because next week you can say, like, oh, I waited a week, I can actually wait another week, don't worry about it. So just do it. There's no reason not to do it. And failure is you know something good, it's not something bad, as long as you don't hurt other ones. I would say that is obviously that it shouldn't be benign, it should be benign, it shouldn't be um like negative. But I would say just start today because now your strong the idea is the strongest, and I hope out of maybe I don't know how many people, maybe three or four people will listen to this. But if there's one individual that will start with some of what one like in like you know, putting a maturity assessment in place, I am a happy camper, you know. I'm very happy because then I was able to move someone in the right direction that could do it today.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:42

The good news is we've got a few more listeners than three or four, so you'll be all right. So that on the percentages we're gonna be good because if you get one out, that's 25%. So that'd be awesome if we can get 25% of listeners to do it. Um, so just to wrap it up, if people are interested and want to follow what you're up to next, where could people, where do you hang out, where do you where can people follow you?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:05

So, yeah, so I am on LinkedIn, that's the only social media I have. Um, please be welcome to sign up for Rick Cost. Um, I don't even know what my LinkedIn profile is, but I think like Rick Cost is probably what it is. Yeah, I'll see how and then um well I'm writing this book. I was like thinking about it for one hour and 13 minutes to be able to say yes or no. But I'm writing this book, hopefully it becomes very cool, which is something in between like science and actual um more like philosophical thinking. Out like the edge of an individual's be uh ability and and pushing that um what I what I probably call it like the edge of chaos. Um, but it will hopefully come out somewhere in like you know, January, uh sorry, in June or in July. Um it will be uh this year, so it will be very readable uh and it will be uh a lot of fun um and not like tough, you know. Yes, there will be some references, but it's more it will be a story, it won't be like uh a chunk of wood that you have to bite through. So um that will happen this year for sure. Um and um yeah, I I think I met Olympique Lyonnais. Uh if you type in my name, you'll probably find me. And I'm open to answer any questions if there are there. And I'm if someone has I think the one thing, yeah, but also maybe something that I want to get in return. Is like if you listen to this and you have good ideas, please send them to me because I think I want to say the first thing is this is not the truth. This is how my brain has gone through a journey and what I made out of it. Um, but it's not the truth. So I want to learn more about like, you know, do you disagree? Do you agree on this? And I would love to get in connection with people who uh you know have critical questions about this.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:57

And I think that's what we learn, isn't it? From creating environments where we can be challenged in times, where you know, and like you said, it's the welcome of feedback for my neurolinguistic programming days when I did my NLP training. There is no such thing as failure, there's only feedback.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:14

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:15

And I think it's such a lovely thing, I guess, but only when it's welcomed as well, you know, non non-solicited feedback is not as good, but you are opening up the thing for for the challenging the feedback.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:26

So it's in all fairness, if you don't like the worst thing is you you you spoke in front of 500 people and no one asks a question, then it's almost like I I shared something wrong. You know, I didn't I didn't create like some kind of an environment where people are disagreeing with me. So it's that's not a good thing. So I think it's very healthy that people disagree because it only you know brings up like you it brings you closer to the truth or at least to the rules Modern Nature put on this set on this earth.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:56

I think it's all you know, and I think if you can as long as you're welcoming feedback, I think that would be my only I think a lot of people deliver feedback that's on in in a in a non-helpful way. But I think if you well and we've all been probably on the receiving end of that sometimes, I think if deliver um, you know, because the word perspective certainly has has kind of resonated through this as well, and I think it's resonated through a lot of the podcasts. And I think, like you've said, we've only always been exposed to what we've been exposed to, we've only read what we've read, and so therefore we only know what we know from the basis of the experiences that we've had, and so someone's had a different experience that can share a different light on that that maybe changed our perspective for the better, and that only happens from having these conversations, then all of a sudden you go, Oh, but that's brilliant. I've learned something today, and that's and that's so I think it's I think it's a really lovely way to kind of wrap this up. So, one final challenge, Rick. If you could set our audience, our audience are very similar to you, they like taking action and they like getting stuff done. So, what would your final challenge you'd like to leave the listeners with?

SPEAKER_00 1:26:07

Oh la la, this is a really difficult. I should have thought about this, but I missed it probably. Um final challenge would be um try to write down in one page what you think your limits are and where you are passing them every single day and try to figure out if it's worth passing your limits, or maybe you should think about organizing that piece of your life and yourself in creating a better unity.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:45

Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:46

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:46

And what we will do when we uh when the book is launched, I'll make sure the podcast is it's it's updated in our show notes, so we put it in. And if it's gonna be June or July, that's perfect for me because that'll be perfect holiday reading. So no no pressure, but that's me, that's my holiday book.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:06

Hang that's beach book. Maybe that's what it needs to be called, the beach. Well that's a really good fit movie, also.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:15

So Leonardo's got pretty.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:19

It's a long time ago.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:20

Yeah, listen, on that note, it's been a privilege. Thank you ever so much for making this happen. Um, and to all of our listeners, thanks very much. Please feel free to offer some feedback as always. Please make sure that you are following us and subscribe to us to make sure that more people can listen to Rick and all of our wonderful guests. So, thank you very Rick for joining us.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:44

It was a pleasure. Thank you very much for having the opportunity to be on.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:47

And we'll see you all soon.