Unlocking Human Potential with Andy Hosgood

Nicki Allen:  From Physio to Founder | Human-Centred Innovation in Healthcare

• Andy Hosgood • Episode 17

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Physiotherapist turned founder on health tech, autism support, wearable technology, leadership, and purpose-driven innovation

What happens when you stop accepting the system… and start building something better?

In this episode of Unlocking Human Potential, Andy sits down with Nicki Allen, physiotherapist, innovator, and founder of Haptiv8, a health-tech company redefining how we support children with movement challenges.

After years working in healthcare, Nicki saw first-hand the gaps particularly for children with autism and additional needs where traditional systems weren’t delivering what patients and families truly needed. Instead of accepting it, she chose to act. 

Through Haptiv8, she is developing wearable, sensory-driven technology designed to improve movement, enhance rehabilitation, and provide real-time insights for clinicians and families alike. 

But this conversation goes far beyond healthcare innovation.

We explore:

  • the courage it takes to step outside traditional career paths
  • how curiosity can become the foundation of innovation
  • the emotional side of leadership and decision-making
  • what it means to build something with real human impact
  • and how to trust your instincts when something doesn’t feel right

This is a conversation about purpose, leadership, healthcare, innovation, and the human side of building something that matters.

About Nicki 

Nicki Allen physiotherapist, innovator, and founder of Haptiv8, a health-tech company redefining how we support children with movement challenges.

Nicki’s work sits at the intersection of clinical practice, technology, and human-centred care. 

 After years working in healthcare, she saw first-hand the gaps in how we support children with conditions like autism particularly those struggling with mobility and development and decided to do something about it.

 Through Haptiv8, she’s developing wearable, sensory-driven technology designed to improve movement, enhance rehabilitation, and give both clinicians and families better insight through real-time data. 

But behind the innovation is a much deeper story one of curiosity, courage, and stepping outside traditional pathways to build something that could genuinely change lives.

 This is a conversation about more than healthcare or technology.

It’s about seeing a problem, trusting your instincts, and having the courage to create something better.”

@haptiv8 

Nicki Allen 

Support the show

SPEAKER_00

Welcome to Unlocking Human Potential with me, Andy Hosgood, a show dedicated to exploring what it really takes psychologically, behaviourally, and practically to help humans thrive. Through conversations with leaders, founders, coaches, behavioural experts, and people shaping how humans perform and grow. Izzy's for you, but if you're a leader, a founder, a business owner, or an ambitious professional who wants to do more than just perform, they want to grow, inspire, and bring the best out in themselves and their people, then keep listening. Because the mission is simple to explore how individuals and teams unlock potential in themselves, in others, and the organizations they shape. Every episode is a deep but relaxed conversation built around three core questions. How do you optimize yourself? How do you unlock potential in others? And the best advice for you, the listener. Now, over to the episode. Really hope you find it helpful and insightful. Just before we introduce our next guest, please make sure you press the follow button to keep updated with the latest episodes. Additionally, a special thanks to 246 photography and the Pixel May brand for making this podcast a reality. However, the episode. So today's guest is Nikki Allen, a physiotherapist, an innovator, founder of Haptivate, a health tech company refining how we support children with movement challenges. Nikki's work sits in the intersection of clinical practice, technology, and human-centered care. After years of working in healthcare, she saw firsthand the gaps on how we support children with conditions like autism, particularly those struggling with mobility and development, and decided to do something about it. Through Haptivate, she's developed a wearable sensory-driven technology designed to improve movement, enhance rehabilitation, and give both clinicians and families better insight through real-time data. But behind the innovation is a much deeper story, one of curiosity, courage, and stepping outside traditional pathways to build something that could generally change lives. This is a conversation more about healthcare or technology. It's about seeing a problem, trusting your instincts, and having the courage to create something better.

SPEAKER_02

What an intro?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I'll be honest. A lot of that came from our first conversation. We obviously got, you know, I'd senior online. I know George, he'd he'd been very open and honest, how how how wonderful I think his words were. He described you. And so you know, the opportunity to then sit down and talk to you and then listening to what you'd done. You know, I left with a smile and an inspiration in my head, and I actually couldn't I couldn't stop thinking of what you'd done. And I think, you know, because it's for me, and I and this is why we wanted to have this conversation. I want to record it because I think it's it's brilliant that I hear an awful lot of people that go, Oh, I had an idea once and I didn't do anything about it, or people go, Oh, yeah, well, I uh it would be dead easy, you just do that. Whereas actually listening to you, you've had those ideas, but actually you've seen it through. Um which felt as well when you first telling me it wasn't your natural pathway to just jump in and take that risk. I don't know if that's a fair.

SPEAKER_02

No, no, I think on the clinical entrepreneur program that they say anyone can have an idea in the shower, which I I actually have loads of brilliant ideas in the shower, but actually turning it into something is a different story, and and I don't think you could quite conceive what it takes, but it's a really fun journey, and I think there's been a lot of luck on my journey and a lot of right time, right place um to my story, really. And George is lovely, he's always been really supportive.

SPEAKER_00

So he is, he is lovely, yeah. He is so like we always do with this pod, curiosity kind of is a thread that runs through a lot of it. So I'm curious what you're curious about right now.

SPEAKER_02

So I'm really curious about where this path will take me. I think um I am not on a traditional physiopath, you know, you kind of do your rotations, you do your specialty. I specialised twice and then couldn't decide between the two and ended up staying in both specialties, so pediatrics and adult neuro. Um, and but from there you kind of become less patient-facing, you go up to band sevens and eights, um, and I just didn't really fancy that. Um, so I'd worked in adult neuro for most of my career, really, probably about 15 years before I went into pediatrics. Um, and I had four kids at the time, so a term time contract really was quite appealing. And I found myself working in a special school that um had a lot of tiptoe walking children, and with tiptoe walking children, it can affect any child, um, and you could you would normally teach them stretches and give them splints and special shoes or teach them through play to stretch their ankles, but the children in this school were non-verbal, um, so they couldn't understand what you were trying to teach them, and then they had a lot of sensory issues. So, if you tried to put splints or do the stretches, they didn't know what you were doing and they didn't like the sensation, so they'd run off. So, then my job became really watching them get worse and referring them for surgery because they actually lose range of movement around their ankles. Um, and one day I was basically moaning in the classroom, like this is absolutely rubbish. Why can't we adapt what we're doing to give something effective for these children? And one of the TAs said, Wouldn't it be great if in the same way shoes lit up when the heels touched the floor, they vibrated? And I thought, oh, that's absolutely genius. So we started looking at the literature and we found wearable devices which were watches that vibrated, um, had been used to alter that kind of sensory soothing rocking behaviour in autistic kids. Um, so we started playing around with the idea of vibration, and we held a focus group with the parents, the SEN teachers, the authists, the podiatrists, the therapy assistants, and what we came up with was our device. So it's really simple, as the heel comes down, they get a vibration. And we did some early testing of that, and then I got onto the clinical entrepreneur program, you know, because all my friends were like, Oh, this is great, but how are you going to actually make this into a thing? And randomly, in a hospital newsletter, up came the clinical entrepreneur program, which kind of catapulted me into a completely different environment. I I suddenly found myself in a room with the CEO of NHS England, um Stephen Powers, saying that innovation is the only way to save the NHS. Now, I don't think anybody works in the NHS for 25 years, on you know, you don't really stay there for the pain conditions, you stay there because you believe in equal access to healthcare. And I don't always see that as much these days. So to think that actually, if we can use innovation to stop the surgeries, to stop the wasted splints, not you know, and to stop the pain and and the frustration really that the children go through, then then this would be great. So I went back to my trust, all kind of fired up, you know, we're gonna save the NHS, it's gonna be great. And um when I got there, it didn't really go anywhere. I emailed the chief exec and didn't get a response, and then I was just a bit deflated, really. Um, so I eventually I did get a response from them basically saying that we don't have the infrastructure to support innovation. We want to support it, but we don't have the finance and we don't have the infrastructure at the minute. Um so on one of the clinical entrepreneur pit stops, I found Lorna, who is the CEO of Liver Labs locally, they support local businesses. Um, and I basically stalked her to the toilet and said, I need you in my life, after hearing her pitch. Um, and from that point I got on their incubator program, which gave me£25,000 worth of investment, which we used to kind of do um patent the idea. We did a feasibility study to see could we could we get electronics small enough into an insult to create what we needed. Um we produced a bench top prototype and we got kind of SEIS, which is a tax relief benefit, um, assured. And then they made me pitch and pitch and pitch until we were ready. And our first pitch that I did with them, we got um VC funding. So um from that point, we had a board, I got grew with a business team around me, um, and we've now kind of developed our MVP, we've got a product ready for testing. We've just had a grant to do a usability test, at which hopefully we're in talks with Alderhay. In principle, they're gonna support and sponsor this the usability study. Um, and so I'm just really curious to see where it takes me. You know, I think people say that you're gonna die in the chasm you once you've built your product. Okay, how do you get enough funds to kind of cross that chasm? Um, and that we've taken a huge risk or whatever, but I kind of think I'm learning loads of skills that I didn't have before, and I am committed to finding a resolution to the problem. And if this solution's not right, well then we'll try something else, and we'll, you know, as long as we can keep the funds coming in, um then we can iterate on what we found and and hopefully get closer to finding the problem. So I think that's where my curiosity is taking me, really, is where we go and how we get there.

SPEAKER_00

Lovely. If I could, just before we start and really kind of delve into some of that, just for some listeners that are from a non-healthcare background, can you just explain that's good to um um the tiptoe walking and what that what that means and how you know how that does affect child development?

SPEAKER_02

So many children can learn to walk on their tiptoes, um, they can be just normal children, it can affect 2% of the normal population, um, and that's fine, and lots of children grow out of it. What we worry about is the children who walk on their tiptoes and never ever place their heels on the floor. This can lead to kind of physical and developmental problems, so um, it can lead to musculoskeletal deformities, gait and balance issues, and if they never put their heels on the floor, they start to lose range of movement around their ankles, and then they have to have the surgery to reduce it. My why, the children that I was looking at were mainly autistic children, um, and the reason they were tiptoe walking, autism is a spectrum, so it's quite complex. So there's not one answer. There's evidence to show that it's uh an inner ear problem, there's evidence to show that it's a hypersensitivity, so they don't actually like the foot on the floor, so the heel comes up.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02

There's also evidence to show that it's hyposensitive where they're actually feel that burn in the calf, um, and that's why they stay up on their toes. Um, and it could be a wonderful picture mix of everything, really. Okay. Um, but ultimately it's a sensory processing problem. So our in soul has vibration, so sensation, it has um visual rewards and auditory rewards. So we're trying to tackle that kind of sensory pathway, really, in any way we can.

SPEAKER_00

No, I and that's why I wanted to just because I think for a lot of people they might be unsure of actually how big the problem is, you know, and you know, 2% of children that's quite big, and then like you said, on top of that, the challenge of where uh we've got a guest already, I love it. Um that's why it keeps it real. Um so for those that just listen in, Nikki's cat keeps joining into the conversation, which is I did try and lock him out, but he just quite. It's great. Um, so you know, I think that's really important that we kind of, you know, when we look at what you are trying to create and how you are trying to make a difference in the world, I think it's it is a real big and important thing to lot to, you know, and and it's not just the children, is it? I think it's the you know, one of the things I loved about you is the fact that you're obviously getting the parents involved, you know, through the focus groups and so, okay, what is going to help the parents obviously with these challenges? Because you know, I would never say I actually probably know not a lot around autism and those kind of conditions, but I what from what I am aware of, I know the the challenge of the parents always trying to kind of get the support and help, and well, that's partly one of the things that you're doing is trying to help the parents by bringing them into these to say, well, okay, what's going to make your life easier as well as the child's, as well, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02

Absolutely, there's no point in us building something that doesn't work for the parents or the clinicians, actually. If it makes either of those lives worse, it's not going to reach the child. Um, and if the child doesn't enjoy it, then again, it's completely pointless, it's just another wasted product. So we absolutely have to build it. And we're working with Alder Hay, have got a patient open innovation zone, which is fantastic, where they um we can have clinician days, we just take our product and the clinician can have a look at it and say, that won't work in our day-to-day. That's going to make our or actually this could really help. Or have you thought about this? We also have a youth day where we give the product to children with kind of no instruction and we see how they what they do with it. Okay, will they interact with it, will they play with it? Um, because guaranteed what they will do with it will not be what we think they're going to do with it. So I think getting that kind of the patient and the parent engagement is just absolutely vital to what we do. Otherwise, there is there is zero point in us doing it. Creating something that I think is pretty, and you know, I I got my nine-year-old to try the insult, and I said, What did you think? Oh, it's great, Mum, yeah. He said, I just wish we'd shoot people with it. All right, we can't do that, but you know, it's getting those kind of new ideas and new games and things that that we won't have thought of um that is really, really important. You know, it is a huge problem, it affects nine million kids globally, 45% with autism. Um, so it is it is a huge problem, and you know, the the cost of the tender lengthening surgery in the the UK alone is over 26 million pounds for one year, so it's a huge problem. And if we can do something to, you know, just using a really simple solution, then I think it's worth us having a go.

SPEAKER_00

I mean 100%, I think it's amazing, and you know, just when you just roll those numbers off, you can just see, you know, the you know, the amount of people who are being affected by it. So actually coming up with that challenge and the fact that you're looking at it from that whole 360 view from the the child, looking at it from the the parent, looking at from the clinician, you know, and actually the and the long-term benefit to them, and and also any kind of early intervention surgery is never nice for anyone to go through either. So if we can avoid that at the same time, then there's there's the benefit.

SPEAKER_02

It doesn't actually deal with the behaviour behind the toe walking either, so it has to be repeated 10 years later, you know. Okay, yeah. And when you think of, you know, you're talking about the parents as well. The parents often some of these children don't sleep, and the parents are up all night trying to do the stretches with the kids, they have the same issues that we do. The kids don't like the sensation, they don't know what you're doing, they'll they'll run off, they'll you know, so it becomes a battle that they don't need to have. Whereas if it's a game for the kids really that they enjoy, then it just takes that bit of hassle. But also, we have real-time feedback so the parent can see how effective it's been, how many times the heel touches the floor, so and they have like day streaks as well within the app, so you can see how compliant they're being. Um, so you know, again, they can see if it's working or if it's not for the child really, really nicely. So, um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

The duolingo of wearable sensors.

SPEAKER_02

Well, that's it. Somebody said we should get like robot vouchers attached to it, right? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But it's a bit of a reward system going.

SPEAKER_00

I'm sure lots of children will be buzzing off that. I know that game as a with a teenager in the house, has definitely been. So, just for you know, this podcast has kind of three themes, you know. So, for new listeners to this, and I've obviously Nikki, we've I've hopefully given you this, but you know, so we're gonna talk around hopefully how you get the best out of yourself, and you know, what I'd love to do is explore your journey from the clinician into the entrepreneur that you are now and CEO and leader. And then, and then and then we talk about unlock others. I think one of the great things is when we have conversations, a lot of people become on their journey, obviously find what works for them. And I think when we get in in certain positions, and I know you are building a team and there's people around you, you know, and it's then how or how do we then help others for get the best out of themselves? So it's more of a mentor, coach, leader, whatever you choose to call yourself in that kind of position, you know, what have you learned or what along the way that you then kind of help other people get the best out of themselves, or if someone was in your shoes going through, what advice would you do? And then I always think if someone's given, you know, gonna give an hour of the time to listen to us have you know have a good conversation, I think the so what piece, okay. So you've had a good conversation now. If you're listening to this, and we've got, you know, we've from sport, from leadership, from people who are thinking of entering entrepreneurship, we've got entrepreneurs, we've got CEOs, you know, the the list is really good. And what's been really interesting with lots of the conversations we've had so far is that everyone can learn from everybody. Yeah, it doesn't matter if you're you know, and I think that is certainly so. Then it's it's about then, okay. So what for people listening, how do we wrap this up and what advice could we do for people to then maybe take some action? Does that sound okay?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, fair, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Awesome. So if we if we could start with you, I'd be really curious to just explore, you know. You you give a really good lovely summary of your kind of journey from a healthcare professional in Euro, you know, obviously PEDAM adult. Yeah. And then okay, now I need to change. I found this problem, I need to become an entrepreneur.

SPEAKER_02

So I'm just didn't quite happen like that overnight, it was more like a three-year journey.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um, someone I gave a talk the other week at Liverpool Uni, and one of the people said, How have you moved it so fast? And I said, Fast, it's been I've been doing this forever. You know, for me it's take it's been slow, I think. So the original testing we probably did about two, maybe three years ago. Liver Labs was October 24. The initial um, and I think it's just kind of been like it's slowly built. Yeah, as time's gone on, it it's got I needed to be doing more and more on the business, and then when we got the grant, I needed to be the principal investigator on the grant, so we had enough money within the business, and it was just the time really. So if I was principal investigator on the business, I had to be doing it full-time. That was one of the kind of stipulations, and because it had been building, um, I was ready, I think, to take, I was kind of juggling two jobs, um, which I've realized now it is a full-time job, you know, and I'd I'd started asking the trust I was working with. I was having to do days in London, conferences here and there. I was juggling my caseload, my patients, and it I didn't feel like it was fair, really. Um, so I I think it just happened naturally, really, that that I left the NHS and and started on this full time. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So if we could just delve into a little bit of that, if you don't mind. You know, one of the things that certainly my curiosities is there's lots of people waiting. Working within healthcare or other industries that are doing a job that they're employed to do, doing it really, really well. Can obviously see how things could be doing better, which kind of I get the impression that's what you were sell you saw and how you described it. But then don't do anything with it for you know, and we've had we've had lots of people talking on this podcast around limited beliefs, lack of self-esteem, you know, almost procrastination, all of those things that you know I think people sit on and go, hmm. So what do you think was different about you? What is different about you then?

SPEAKER_02

I think if you ask any of my friends, I've always been prone to a madcap idea. Okay, like along being a physio, I've also been a child minder, I've been a yoga teacher.

SPEAKER_03

Okay.

SPEAKER_02

Um, I've always had a new thing, and like if I say I'm doing this, people just kind of roll their eyes, go, oh God, what's she doing now? This one's kind of stuck.

SPEAKER_03

Okay.

SPEAKER_02

This one's been going. Um, so whether they were all like preparations for this, I don't know. But interestingly, when um on one of the pit stops on the entrepreneur program, they had like a Belvin test, which is like a personality test, yeah. And a lot of the people on those courses were consultants and doctors, and I felt a little bit like, oh, how did I get here? Um and they made you do a personality test, and my personality test came out that I'm an innovator, and I, as was every single person in the room, and that for me was like I found my tribe, and you know, they talked a lot about are you this person that always has these ideas? And you know, people go, Oh god, oh Nikki, come on, there's no money, where are we gonna get that? How are we making that happen? Um, so I think I've always had that in me, and I'd been in my two specialties, one for 10 years, one for near enough 25 years. Um I wanted to learn, I wanted to grow, um, and it's not so much, you know, obviously we want to make a difference for the kids, um, but also for me it's about the learning and the growing and going in a different direction, um, but using the skills kind of that we've learned along the way. So I didn't feel like I'm losing anything or moving away from something stable. I felt more like I'm growing and that was more important to me.

SPEAKER_00

It's a really interesting mindset, isn't it? Because I think it's I like the fact that you've got all these other skills as well that you can always um is that coming to the yoga teacher as well. But that the and it's interesting because when we when we delve down into this, like you've said, the the all every single step of that is part of your journey, maybe, isn't it? And I think there's lots of people who are listening who especially with healthcare. I think that you know, we part of my as a healthcare professional for almost 25 years as well. It's one of those where I think we have lots of conversations with people that aren't always happy in the role they do and are always trying little things. And I think what you were what I what I just picked up from that conversation was it was just what was gonna land the best for you and this one, like or you used do it. This one just seemed to stick.

SPEAKER_02

Um that's it.

SPEAKER_00

I I guess the curiosity for me and the word that comes to mind is the word motivation. How do you how have you kept motivated? Because when you were talking about that, that you know, even getting to the point you are now, you were working the two jobs and trying to balance it all and having to travel enough, and you said you had four kids before. So that's quite a you know, most people will go, oh, this is too much, I'm bailing, but there you just seem to be motivated, you're still smiling, which is lovely, and you still you still got that energy.

SPEAKER_02

I've always got to have a little hobby, you know, like if it otherwise I'd be moving house or I'd be like and that sort of person. Um I I like to be, I like, I mean, I like to do stuff, um, and I've got an incredibly supportive family, you know. My husband is working on my business as well as doing his own. Nice, um, you know, and and he will will run the house while I'm not here, you know. So I don't think I could do that without without their support, really. So um I'm just lucky, I think, that um yeah, we've we've got the support around us to to be able to do it really and indulge my craziness.

SPEAKER_00

It doesn't, I mean, I I would I'm not challenging the word craziness, although I think for me it's you know what underpins a lot of it seems to be a lot of passion and the passion for making a difference and a passion for learning, a passion for growth. That that's that's what's coming across for me in in a really strong way. And I guess you talk about that this growth mindset. I mean, I've I've used my words, you said you always like wanting to improve and get better and better and better. I've terminality growth mindset in in a way to do stuff, always want to learn. I guess if you could, what's changed, you know, along that journey and along your journey about yourself that you've developed. I mean, you said it took you to a room where you had to do a personality test, and then you went, Oh, I'm an innovator, I'm an innovator, and then and you had to use what I found me tribe. Yeah, yeah. So what what's happened along or or is that just something that you think actually have always been that? It was just really nice that actually someone's labelled it for me, and I feel like actually, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I wasn't just the oh god, what's she doing now? But everybody else was the same. That that was really nice for me. Um, I think I did get a bit of imposter syndrome, you know, when you you join the entrepreneur program, everybody there is incredible. Like literally, I think on my first you sit next to people and you turn and you look at one person. He had invented a hologram where you can. I probably shouldn't talk about it actually. He'd invented something incredible for brain surgery, um, and and somebody's the other side also incredible. And I was like, I've got a little insult, you know, just just felt. Um, but the entrepreneur program gave me like um a career coach who asked me questions that were really kind of made you squirm inside, well, why isn't yours as valid as theirs, you know, um, and and really dug into me, made me feel quite uneasy. But actually, she was lovely. She was lovely, but something about what she did and the questions she asked made me not care about me in the situation and made me think more about actually what's important is getting this problem solved and getting the message across, and I'm in a good place to get that message across. Like I'm not a natural speaker, I don't really you know enjoy speaking in front of big crowds, but I'm the person to do it because it my journey actually is quite powerful in helping getting that message across. Um, so I've kind of just you know, kind of get over yourself, just get out there, get the message done. Um, and every time I do, something incredible happens. Okay, some connection comes up, or we get investment when we weren't expecting it, or a conversation happens. Even you know, we we've tried to work with some trusts, NHS trusts, and they initially say no, but because of the network you build, somebody has a conversation without you knowing until after the fact, and all of a sudden they want to work with you and they want to, you know, so um I think pushing yourself through those has actually been massively worth it for me. Um, and just get over yourself and get it done.

SPEAKER_00

Really. That's quote of the day. Yeah, yeah, that's a tagging part. Get over yourself and get it done. I like it. Awesome. Clickbait, perfect.

SPEAKER_02

Um, I think, yeah, I think having those those conversations that I and I've got um a really wonderful Ned as well, um, John Carrington, who he'll just say take the emotion out of it, Nikki.

SPEAKER_00

So that's a non-executive director for those people.

SPEAKER_02

He'll just say, take the emotion out of it. You know, if if I've got a an issue that I need to raise, I think as physios, we're used to dealing with other people's problems, but sometimes you have to bring problems to the table and get that sort of out. And he just says, This is business, just take the emotion out, and and you know, and that helps massively, I think, just to do that, really. I think as a human, you want to be liked and you want to be helpful and you know, kind. And and I I want to do that, and that's how I want to move forward, but I don't know how to navigate some of the situations without um offending people, you know. And and I think again having those advisors around you to support and guide you with that is really useful.

SPEAKER_00

So, if we could, for those people unfamiliar with the the NHS's clinical entrepreneurial programme, if you could a little bit just explain what that is and also what that environment is like, because obviously you were asked those what sound the career codes sound like they are some challenging questions, yeah. Um but you've got to be in the right environment, haven't you, for you to feel comfortable to say to to actually not worry about what you're gonna say. So, what is it about? Well, firstly, if you could just share a little bit about what the programme is, and then what is it about that environment that you felt allowed you to get over yourself if you put it in the nice bottle way?

SPEAKER_02

Um, it's an incredibly inspiring environment. So it's run um by Tony Young, who is the clinical entrepreneur lead um and chief ex chief of clinical innovation for NHS England. Um, and it's so you when you apply, you get on, and then it's um like an evening and a whole day once a month for 12 months, basically teaching you the business skills that you need. So it's designed, it was originally designed for um NHS clinicians to support grassroots innovation, um, and then it's grown, they've now got a patient entrepreneur group as well. Oh, nice. Um, and I think there's a separate Parkinson's um entrepreneur program as well. Um, so it's growing year on year. I I saw him on Friday, and he said they've just taken on 250 new clinical entrepreneurs for this cohort. So I think they're in cohort nine or ten, maybe I was cohort seven, but I I still, as an alumni, have access, I can go to any of those pit stops, they have a whole wealth of resources. Um, one of the other Tams and Dr. Tams and Brown's a pediatrician on it, and she's been incredibly supportive. She gave me um the heads up about an NIHR Pediatric Sprint Day in Cambridge, which I went down and won. Um, and from there, you know, I'm going back this year to talk as kind of like a mentor on that. So, you know, it's all about networking, it's about supporting you, it's about giving you the right tools as a clinician, really, to take your product and and to embed it within the NHS, with the view of trying to generate funds for the NHS and and make processes cleaner, better, more efficient. Um, given that we don't have much funds and staffing is reducing, these innovations can be vital to supporting um the NHS and and promoting that equal access to care, really.

SPEAKER_00

No, I love that. I love that.

SPEAKER_02

So I think for me as well, what why was it comfortable? It was just so inspiring that other clinicians, the things they were doing, the way they talked about, I think Tony's got a really lovely way of talking. You know, he'll hear an innovation and he'll go, wow, just wow, and it really makes you want to be like, I want to I want to have a wow. Um it just is really, really inspiring. The people you meet were really lovely. I think the coach um was a one-to-one on team, so I was at home, it was private, it wasn't, you know, it wasn't in a group setting. Um, but they have lots of mentors as well, and you can pick your mentors on there. So I actually picked a mentor that worked for a med tech company, um, and she helped us design our first prototype literally with like 20 pounds worth of Amazon vow Amazon um parts. So um that was enough for us to get a bit of proof of concept that we could then go and get the funding with. So um just an and I would never have found Liver Labs if it wasn't for the clinical entrepreneur programme, so just incredible space really for clinicians to go to and as a first part on your journey.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it definitely sounds it. And what what do you feel like that it's done for you in I guess part of your growth mind? So how has it changed you on your because you've you know to go from an idea in a school to then pitching for you know venture capitalist money? Yeah, it's quite a leap and a jump, isn't it? And it and it's something probably there's uh there's the word unfamiliar seems to terrifying.

SPEAKER_02

I think um the bit in the middle for me was the Liver Lab support, so the incubator program. They only took on eight companies, and each company was given someone to sit next to them, so I could say, What does that mean? I don't know what that is, what's a town, what's a song, what's a sound, you know, and and they really helped pull together your business plan, pull together your pitch deck, and then they made your pitch, and they made your pitch, and they made your pitch, and they gave you loads of feedback, they got you really ready, um, and they've been incredibly supportive as well. You know, even like manufacturers that I'm starting to talk to, oh, live labs have spoken about you, you know, they they've massively facilitated things outside of the incubator program. Um, and Rachel Lawless, who she sits on my board, she's one of the Live Lab members, she also writes grants, and she, you know, basically was the reason that we got our grant. Okay, um, so they just surround you with incredible people. It's a it's a Liverpool City region funded thing, so um, anyone in the Liverpool City region can benefit from the support, they can help you with your health economics piece. Um, and that leap, I think I went to them really with the idea and the concept and and the fire, and they gave me the business. Um, they gave me everything that we have today, really, gave us that first rung on the ladder.

SPEAKER_00

Um, if I could share something, you've used the word luck a couple of times during this conversation, and I think have you been lucky, but have you got put yourself in an environment where you've you know, for lots of people listening, the thought of then half into one turn up to that meeting would be terrifying enough to say, I'm not going. The second thing to sit answering those questions would go, I'm not quite sure I'm made for this. Then to go, oh, by the way, we're gonna teach you to pitch and you're gonna do it loads and loads and loads and loads and loads, but we're gonna give you feedback. You know, again, it seems to be that you know this look seems to come from also your drive, your passion to make sure this happens, but also your willingness to turn around and go, okay, cool, I can be better than that. That's right. I'll I'll because it's it's alright take uh being given feedback, but actually taking it on board, going, okay, cool, I can use that and I can adapt that to change and being the word brave come. I don't know where you sit with that word, it that because but I I actually generally I mean that when I say it because I think for a lot of people they would be fearful or would be frightened to make that, and the word brave for you it just seems like oh yeah, it's just what I do, innit?

SPEAKER_02

But yeah, I mean I mean it absolutely was shaking, but I don't think that's brave. I think it's just more that I'm like not a natural speaker and it's a skill I need to learn, and it's part of that learning, yeah. You know, it's part of to get to the solution. This is what you've got to do. So um I you you're really lucky. It was kind feedback that you know, they were critical best friends, it felt like a safe space. They weren't, you know, mean, they were just you know, they were giving really constructive feedback that you learn and you grow from, and and you know, so it is about the growing, like it and and getting closer to the solution, really. I think rather than the you know, I think one day I don't wear my watch when I give talks because I think it's gonna call an ambulance, my heart rate's too high.

SPEAKER_01

Um, but I think one day my body will desensitize to that, I'll get better, you know.

SPEAKER_00

Also, maybe that's makes you need that to make you perform well on stage because obviously they're gonna all go in well from the sounds of it.

SPEAKER_01

I've been heckled off stage a few times because I've overran, and that was interesting, actually.

SPEAKER_02

The last one, and you know, like I've I've overran on time, and afterwards I was saying, Oh, I can't believe I've overran. And somebody said to me, Nikki, did you notice the fella after you? He overran by five minutes, and when he realized he'd overrun, he did not blink, he carried on, he sailed through. Whereas I was like, I'm so sorry, so sorry, rushed off, and you know, and I think um there's a bit of a mindset thing there, really, is to but again it's that you're being considerate of others, though, aren't you?

SPEAKER_00

I think in that moment, you're aware that there's somebody else after you, so that you are considerate others, and I think I always get the impression with you know, and this is a stereotype of people who are passionate about what they do, when they get the opportunity to talk about it, they enjoy talking about it. Time does disappear, doesn't it? You know, I've got to be when I present, I've almost got to say, right, I know this is a half an hour presentation, for example. But at home, I've got to go, right? I know this, I've got to be able to finish this presentation in 20 minutes because the minute I'll get on stage, my giddiness level goes up. Yeah, and actually, what I'd rehearsed in my head will never come out. So exactly that. It it is just and just knowing that I've got 20 minutes of content, right? This is gonna be if if this goes well, it might be under half an hour because I know what I'm like, and that just comes from you know, just but again, it comes from a place of I like sharing information, I like being helpful. It comes from a place of good. I'm not trying to be a givey to the person next behind me, you know, who's on afterwards.

SPEAKER_02

It's very different styles, I suppose. So, you know, like I don't think he was trying to hog anything, I think he was just he is a brilliant pitcher, he's really good to listen to, really impressive. Um, and he just didn't let it flap him, he just stayed professional, whereas I was just I just went to pieces.

SPEAKER_00

But but it also shows that we are all different as humans, isn't it? And it's not the right way. And even if you feel you know, you look at somebody like that, it could be a swan, couldn't it? It could look absolutely nail, but in but in inside of his head, and that's the bit we never really know.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and and I think I find myself pitching a lot on stages where kind of a lot of the other pictures are PhD students, and what they're doing is just incredible, but we seem to get quite a lot of good feedback. I don't know because we're simpler, because we tell a more human story, maybe a more relatable story, um, and people always come up, you know, and that's where we get it's really fascinating to me because some of the other pictures are incredible, you know. They're talking about saving cancer, and you know, just amazing, but we always seem to get um really just really lovely feedback, and I think it's just because we we just are simple and easy to understand, but that is a skill, and it's an undervalued skill, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00

Of making something that's quite complicated, really simple so anyone can understand it, I think is a skill. Um the more and more I look into I'm I'm a geek, so the more and more I look into human communication, storytelling resonates a lot with people better, doesn't it? And I think you have got an amazing story to tell, and an amazing story of what you're trying to do, and I think it's really clear. So I think I think there's some skill behind a lot of that. What I'd it it what I'd like to do if you if you feel comfortable is just kind of because one of the things that you touched on was how some of these mentors and some of these coaches that have have kind of influenced you, and now you even said that you're going back to that conference and you're now doing mentoring. I'm just curious, what were the things that maybe you've picked up from them that people listening now could probably benefit from understanding a bit more?

SPEAKER_02

I think that everybody you are dealing with are human.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um, and things aren't, I think. Going into this, I felt like things were black and white. Yes, you can do this, no, you can't do that. Whereas now it's more sometimes. A no, you might hear a no, but it's might not be a no forever, it might be a no try this, or maybe try a different way, or you know, knock on a different door, or that door will open in the future. You know, you can you can try and I I think yeah, I think just keeping in mind your passion, your vision, and finding a way to make it work. There is a way, um, and I I I think I really do believe that. I do believe that there is a way to make it work, and if I make mistakes along the way, well then we learn from them. If it's a no, if we don't get the grant, well then we get feedback and we grow from it. And I think um that's the way I view it, and I think I've not led with anything like I'm an expert in this, I've actually led with I have no clue what I'm doing. Please can you help me? And everybody comes and helps, and that's been really, really lovely on my journey. Is that we've got surrounded by incredible people just trying to help with the same problem or with the same real motives, um, and just trying to be nice people as well. So, you know, I think that's helped too. It's actually helped that I don't know what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I'd like to I'm curious if that is how much of that is actually true, but I think the thing for me is what I what I think from that is that but you are being real, aren't you? And I think that I think the transparency and the openness, I think a lot of people can pick up on, can't they? And I think sometimes, and that obviously comes around and about in how you are and your comfortableness with being open to actually not very good at this, you know. We were talking prior to this call, and I think you know, when we get to senior leadership positions, and it's been we've had a lot of CEOs, and I know your title of CEO, even though we asked about you were like going, Oh, I don't know if I'm a leader yet. Okay, but one of the things that they're key ended saying is actually for a lot of the that the journey up to becoming that, as they got to leadership, they were like, I don't really know what I'm doing, but I don't feel comfortable saying that because how will I be judged? Yeah, and I had a CEO on the on the pod, and he basically said, Oh, I got to the top and I was running this massive international company, and I was looking around going, I don't know what's going on here. But what I then and you're going, all right, anyway. So, but the good thing was I knew somebody around me that did, and I felt comfortable asking for help and saying, Look, I haven't got a clue what's going on here. You couldn't do us a favor and explain this to me. And I think there's a suit, I genuinely believe there's a superpower in that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, generally believe, because you get you then get the information that you need to move it forwards and to move it, you know. There's no point in me saying, Oh, yeah, no, this one I don't, you know, I think it'll come through for starters, but also it just won't get the job done properly. So, you know, I need to properly understand it and I need to feel I need to surround myself with people that I like you say, I can feel comfortable to ask, you know, like I said, my um my Ned, he if I have a problem, I send him an emoji of a ghost, like ghostbusters, so he knows I need support quick. And you know, it's having it's having those people around you to support you, the experienced ones that you can really trust, and you know that they've they they've been there, they've done, they've walked the same path, um, and now you know they're there to support you and help you on your journey so you don't make mistakes that they have. And I think you only get the actual really valid advice when you can articulate the problem really well to them. Um, and if you're hiding bits of the problem, then you're not gonna get the full solution.

SPEAKER_00

So oh my gosh, that makes me smile so much because I think that is partly, you know, especially in my world, people don't do that, do they? I think they do because for whatever reasons, is it uh if I say this out loud, people are gonna judge me. And I think that judgment is such a big thing, you know. I should know what I'm talking about. I'm trying to create this product and I've got all this money and someone's giving me this money to do this. We're actually the superpower you're leaning into is going, I I really know where we want to get to, and we're gonna get there, but along the way, I don't know this and this and this, but I'm gonna find a way, I'm gonna be I'm gonna be open and honest and transparent to an easy answer, yeah. And also you're gonna have clarity over which emoji means what. So when you so you send him a thumbs up one, all good, or okay, simple, it's all good. But a ghost one he goes, he jumps on the phone straight away, goes, but I think it is important, isn't it, that you have people around you that you feel that you can do that with, and I think that's something which I would certainly encourage anybody that is looking to do it just to find somebody, but also somebody that's not gonna just smile and go, Oh, you're wonderful and brilliant. It sounds like a longer time. People have pushed back, they can be compassionate with feedback.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, absolutely. You need those people that say, you know, even I was giving a talk the other week, and um Lorna, the CEO of Live Labs, had said, Oh, I've got this new idea for a product, and and we can do this and that. And she just went, Nikki, just focus. These 12 months you need to do this, this, and this. And I've oh, okay, you know, I need that reining in um and that focus because otherwise I would be off, and then you just spread yourself too thin, really. Um, it's good to have the foresight of what's coming next and have those ideas, but you need the experience of other people to to help kind of filter when's the right time and and what stages you go through. I think it is vitally important not to have yes people, but to have people that will say, no, that's that's not right.

SPEAKER_00

Oh my gosh, music to my ears. But again, that is you know one of the things that a lot of business owners, especially the world that I work in now that are founder-based business owners, because they don't want to be caught out, will even recruit and hire people that they know are very similar to them and will probably agree with them because they're afraid of challenge or again, judgment from others, and they say, Well, I'm the boss, I should know what I'm doing. So I think the fact that you're actually actively encouraging that, saying that and living it, that that obviously fills in with all the luck that you I think it's that culture as well.

SPEAKER_02

Like, if I'm not afraid to ask questions, then no, they they won't be either, you know. And I think that it leads into that culture where we all can kind of support and learn each other, you know, learn from each other as we go.

SPEAKER_00

Uh yeah, I mean that that opens up that whole thing of saying, you know, leadership and role modelling. And if you're if you're leading from the front and saying, look, I don't know everything, and it's okay, then actually people can turn around and well, I don't know this. I think that's really nice, but but then also you learn together, don't you? And you solve problems together, and that that can even deepen the bond within a team and a cult, yeah, because you're all kind of on that journey together.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, you've got the kind of mutual respect, I suppose, and trust of of each other, haven't you, which I think is really important.

SPEAKER_00

No, definitely, 100% so is there anything so from your experience so far, you know, what would you from a leadership perspective, if you've got people who are you know in in leadership positions or are mentoring, coaching and supporting others, what would be the key things that you would what will that have helped you that you would in your position now that you would actively do to support other people or other people should seek to get?

SPEAKER_02

I think it's really cliche, but I think finding your tribe is huge. Um I don't necessarily go to all kind of the networking events and that kind of thing, but my tribe have just been so vital to my journey, really. Um, the people that we've got around you is just incredible, and I don't think we'd be where we are without them. Um so I think that would be the number one. I think encouraging the grassroots innovation, you know. I didn't know it was an option in my career. Okay, um, it wasn't really a path that you choose, and I would love to see that being a path that you choose. I think grassroots innovation is so vital, so important to the whole ecosystem, you know, not just the NHS, but the whole business world, everything, you know, because we we do know, we can see the gaps, we have the ideas, and it's how we transform them. If we can, the more people that tread that path, the the clearer those pathways will become. Um, and I think that can only be of benefit for everybody, really. So I think having a go looking out for the clinical entrepreneur programs, approaching your um quality leads, your um or clinical innovators if you've got them in the trust, and seeing how you can make those ideas into reality. Um and and you know, looking at the research, checking that what your what your idea, you know, backing up your idea, really getting all your kind of ducks in a row. I think, you know, somebody I've I've spoken to people who were going even just to pitch to Liver Labs in the first place, and they they didn't really know that they had to think about how big is the problem, how you know, is there any literature to support it, what um and put all those bits in place, kind of all those early building blocks to make sure that you you will be heard, your your story will be heard when you take it to the people that can help you.

SPEAKER_00

But I think you know, my interpretation of that is that you you obviously it's alright having a great idea, but actually being able to do the background check and making sure that idea is solid before presenting it, you know, because one of the things, I mean you have to you only have to watch dragons then, don't you?

SPEAKER_01

And if you don't know your numbers, you know the uh they rip off the entrepreneurs. They always watch that program and think they they they but I think they had to do it.

SPEAKER_00

Well it it it's yeah, I always look at it and go, you know they're gonna ask you what's your numbers, yeah. Yeah, so if you go on and go, Oh, I don't know, you think you know what? Have you not watched this program before? Yeah, you know it's even my daughter when we watch it goes, I wonder if they're gonna know the numbers. You know, it's it's it's such a thing, so yeah, but it is being prepared, isn't it? And I think sometimes it's going in, it's great having an idea, but actually putting the putting the depth and the detail in sometimes can really help, yeah. Um yeah, and help you get lucky. I'm gonna went all the way.

SPEAKER_02

Checking that nobody's done it before, you know, going to a space net and and searching the patterns and making sure that that idea has not been not happened before, you know. Um, all those things are kind of vital before you start anything. Um, because again, there's no point inventing something that somebody's already done.

SPEAKER_00

Or if if yeah, I guess so. That's or learning from that, if it's is there something that hasn't worked that you can improve upon. Yeah, there's like you said, it's there's always there's always room to learn, isn't there, and develop.

SPEAKER_02

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00

So just before we move into our advice section, I'm conscious of our time because uh I've got about 8,000 million questions, but I'm gonna pause them for you, don't worry, I guess. Um just for is there anything that around kind of yourself or developing others you'd like to share or about your journey or anything you want to tell the listeners?

SPEAKER_02

We're gonna go into taking time for yourself as well is really important, you know. There's no point building something if you know you've you're not spending time with your family or you're letting your health slide or something like that, you know. I think you've got to keep those two really important as well. Um, and for me, probably meditation really helps, or even just something simple like going for a walk with nobody else. So I don't even think of it, but I suddenly start to come up with brilliant ideas, which I'm not forcing because I'm not kind of sat at the desk and diverted with loads of other different um tasks to do, it just suddenly starts to flow a bit more natural. So I think having that time to um just reflect a little bit, but not in a formal way, just naturally, I think is really important, and then taking time to read as well from other people's journeys and finding that you know, I don't do it as often as I should, but if I'm on the train going somewhere, I get out like a female found a book or something like that. Um and that really touches me in a in a way that I can't really describe, but it just um because again, I think sometimes you can just be sat at the computer for days, you know, and not really have you have meetings and things, but that human contact, but having the stories from other people on on the same journey is really valuable as well.

SPEAKER_00

I really like that. I really like that, and I think you know, one of the things we do always talk around is these pre- you know, these practical things that people can try. And I think when you so you use going out on a walk, do you have headphones in or are you just one of nature?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, just have the dogs. Um, but yeah, I don't I don't like to, I think it's just having no no distraction, no noise, it just helps your mind just sift through stuff.

SPEAKER_00

There's a lot in that as well, isn't there? There's a lot of people talk about that, just being that you know, that being present in nature is it can be really quite empowering and again very reflective. And you also talk around like meditation just taking time just to try not to think of anything.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, well that's it. I think you know, um I think again, John says if you're not running at full capacity, then it'll show in the quality of your work and everything that you're producing, and you'll be more productive if you are in that better, you know, flow, really.

SPEAKER_00

But and I think it's so important, I think it's one thing that many business owners and entrepreneurs and leaders forget to do is prioritize themselves. Because you know, if you want to present the best version of yourself into a meeting or into your work, then actually you've got to think what is the best version of myself. Yeah, if you're burnt out, worn out, overwhelmed, you're not often bringing the best version of yourself, are you? If you've got no capacity, then sometimes, and that couldn't, and I'm not saying you would, but I know from my experience that can come across in sometimes the way you react or the way you behave or the way you respond, which then you go, Oh gosh, I've got it on that better.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I had um like a one-minute pitch with um fabulous chap Oliver Montague, who'd invented um like a contraption you can put on any bike to turn it into an e-bike. And he gave us um a talk last Monday in London about pitching. He made us pitch for a minute at the start, and then he kind of rewrote everything for us, or you know, helped us rewrite it, and then he pitched at the end. And at the end, I was rushing for my train. I hadn't slept the night before, I couldn't remember, just simple.

SPEAKER_01

He was filming it in one sentence at a time, and I was just laughed halfway through it because I was just getting the lines wrong, and you know, like, and I think it's just so important just to kind of breathe and just go, you know, because that was a fabulous opportunity that I've stuffed up really because I've laughed drawing it, which is really inappropriate, and um, so I I just think you know, if if I take the time to do it properly, then that you know, the quality that you produce because the actual pitch he he helped us produce the end was fab fabulous.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_02

So yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Awesome. I like that. What what's one principle you wish every leader and you can put stroke mentor, stroke coach, stroke understood?

SPEAKER_02

I think grassroots innovation is just really important to the whole ecosystem and to support it, and to you know, um I I think it is coming. I think that you know there is people are aware and they are trying to change and channel and and get those pathways and policies in, but I think um that it's possible and that it actually could help support and and sustain the NHS, um, and and that's why it's really worthwhile supporting it, really nice.

SPEAKER_00

If there's people listening, um there's been lots of insights in this conversation, and I look forward to listening and reading it back. What insights would you take that we've kind of discussed today and what actions could people be actively doing but differently? What would the what were the simple take homes that you know that they could do today?

SPEAKER_02

Um I think don't be afraid of your ideas. They you know they are valid, check them out. Um if it's a path that you're interested in, follow it, you know. And I do believe is it meant to be the doors will open and you know you just have to do the preparation bits first. Um and I I it's a really fun journey. Don't be afraid of it. It's really fun, it's really, really rewarding. Um, and at the end of the day, you you know you'll have a great adventure, you'll have, and you might get closer to doing something that could be really meaningful and really impactful.

SPEAKER_00

And it sounds also like you've learned an awful lot about lots of different things along the way as well.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I have learned lots of different things, um, you know, medical regs, IP, just whole new worlds that didn't even know existed. Um, and every it feels like every time you peel back something, there's a whole other mindfield to to learn or to go through. But again, it's it's really fun. Um, and it's it's just a whole other thing to to get your head around and and a different problem to tackle, but it's not boring, do you know? It's really fun.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I get that impression you seem to just attack the world with a smile, and I I think it's lovely. I think it's you know, I I think it that for me is very inspirational. You know, just how you you know most people find things challenging. You go, it's fun to learn new stuff and just explore into it. And I love it, I think it's great, and I think it's you know, and I can tell when you're talking about your journey, the smile's massive in it, you know, you're buzzing off it, and I and I think it's lovely, and I think that's really come across in this conversation. So, for people who've enjoyed the conversation, where can people follow you and find out what you're up to?

SPEAKER_02

And uh, LinkedIn is the best place to follow me, Nikki Allen on LinkedIn, or um you can look at the website. We've got www.haptivate.com. The new landing page is due in the next couple of days.

SPEAKER_03

Okay.

SPEAKER_02

We're just finalising it. Um, and then you can sign up for the um pilot if people are interested, or sign up just to follow us. Um, and hopefully we'll get a newsletter started up soon for the people that have signed up already.

SPEAKER_00

Awesome. Well, we'll put all of those details in the show notes as well so people can can just click on that. Um, is there anything you're working on next that people are?

SPEAKER_02

We've got the usability study starting. Um we by the end of the year, really, we hope to have the data behind us and have the medical regulatory certification to say. Um, and hopefully looking towards commercialization in the UK towards the end of this year. So yeah, yeah, lots to keep us busy.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it sounds like it. Uh all with a smile though.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, of course.

SPEAKER_00

Well, that's cool. Uh so we're always like if there's one final challenge, you could just set our audience. What would it be?

SPEAKER_02

Innovate, become innovators, think of solutions to the problems that you see. Um, and put it, it doesn't have to be big, it can be small, it can be, and I think as well, you know, be open to innovation. There are lots of amazing things out there already. Um, and sometimes clinicians can be a little bit wary, rightly so. But if something has had the studies and the um medical regulations behind them, had an awful lot of checks to make sure that they are safe. And I think if we're open to them, then they can make a real difference to our lives as clinicians and ultimately to the patients' lives and the experiences that they have.

SPEAKER_00

Definitely, Nikki. Thank you very much. It's been a lovely conversation. I really, really appreciate it. To our folks.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, it's been, yeah. Um I look to get what we need to do as a part two when we've had it, and just to see when we're in that, and so we can have a follow up conversation for definite. Definitely. For all our listeners and followers, what would be awesome. You know, check Nikki out, make sure you follow her. You know, I think as we all know, she's doing some amazing things and it'd be great. And if you are a business that would like to support Nikki and throw some money into the business, then I'm sure. She'd be welcome. A conversation, some funding. We all know she can pitch really well now, so that's great. Please feel free to follow, subscribe, own all our things to get all our latest updates. That would be awesome, Nikki. Again, thank you ever so much for joining us. It's been a lovely conversation. And to our listeners, we'll see you on the next one.