From Elite Sport to Elite Leadership: The Truth About Identity, Pressure & Performance

Dr Mathew Inness on life after sport, redefining success, and what high performers get wrong about resilience.

What happens when the thing that defined you… disappears?

In this episode of Unlocking Human Potential, I sit down with Dr Mathew Inness, former professional cricketer turned performance expert to explore the reality behind high performance.

Not the highlight reels.
Not the medals.
The human side.

We unpack what it really means to transition from elite sport into a new identity, and why so many high performers struggle when the external validation fades.

This is a conversation about pressure, purpose, and rebuilding from the inside out.

In this episode, we explore:

• The hidden psychological cost of high performance
• Why identity becomes your biggest strength… and your biggest trap
• What happens when performance no longer defines you
• The transition from elite sport into business and leadership
• How to build resilience that isn’t dependent on outcomes
• The mindset shift from external success → internal alignment

This isn’t just for athletes.

If you’re a leader, founder, or high performer who’s ever felt:

• Stuck despite success
• Lost in transition
• Or unsure what comes next

This conversation will hit home.

Listen now and start unlocking your next level of potential.

About Mathew 

Dr. Mathew Inness is a former professional cricketer who competed at first-class level across Australia and the UK for over a decade, before transitioning into the world of elite performance. 

But what makes his journey powerful isn’t just the sport it’s what came next.

With a PhD in sports science, an MBA, a background working with Olympic medal wining athletes as well as World Championships, and over a decade inside elite AFL environments including premiership success. 

Mathew has become one of the leading minds in high performance and human development. 

With almost 30 years in Professional and Olympic sport, he’s now leading high-performance and medical teams at the very top level of sport, helping individuals and organisations unlock what they’re truly capable of not just physically, but mentally and emotionally. 

This is a conversation about what it really takes to perform under pressure, build resilient systems, and maximise human potential when it matters most.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Welcome to Unlocking Human Potential with me, Andy Hosgood, a show dedicated to exploring what it really takes psychologically, behaviourally, and practically to help humans thrive through conversations with leaders, founders, coaches, behavioural experts, and people shaping how humans perform and grow. Is this for you? But if you're a leader, a founder, a business owner, or an ambitious professional who wants to do more than just perform, they want to grow, inspire, and bring the best out in themselves and their people, then keep listening. Because the mission is simple to explore how individuals and teams unlock potential in themselves, in others, and the organizations they shape. Every episode is a deep but relaxed conversation built around three core questions How do you optimize yourself? How do you unlock potential in others? And the best advice for you, the listener. Now, over to the episode. I really hope you find it helpful and insightful. Just before we introduce our next guest, please make sure you press the follow button to keep updated with the latest episodes. Additionally, special thanks to 246 Photography and Pixel Mate brand for making this podcast a reality. How over to the episode. Aware.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Good thanks, Andy. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

No, it's brilliant. It's lovely to have you. So today's guest is someone who truly lives on the intersection of performance, resilience, and human potential. Dr. Matt Inns. Ines Ines, I'll get it right, I promise. Is a uh a former professional cricketer who completed uh at the first class level across Australia and the UK for over a decade before transitioning to the world of elite performance. But what makes his journey powerful isn't just a sport, it's what came next. With a PhD in sports science, an MBA, a background working with Olympic medal winning athletes, as well as world championships, and over a decade inside the elite AFL environments, including premiership success. Ma's become one of the leading minds in high performance and human development. With almost 30 years in professional Olympic sport, he's now leading high performance and medical teams at the very top level of sport, helping individuals and organizations unlock what they're truly capable of, not just physically but mentally and emotionally. This conversation is about what it takes to perform under pressure, build resilient systems, and maximise human potential when it matters most. So, Matt, welcome to unlocking human potential. Thanks for having me. No, it's been brilliant, Matt. And I appreciate our time differences, it's always been it's always good fun. So I appreciate that you fitting this into your into your schedule. I know the role you're in at the moment is a new role as well. So it's been uh it's very, very appreciative that you're joining us today.

SPEAKER_01 3:06

No, no problem. You're you're up much earlier than me, so that's that's all good.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

I like I like being up early, so it it certainly suits into my schedule. So thank you very much for that. So, Matt, like with all of these podcasts, one of the things that we always you know, curiosity seems to line between a lot of people. So I'm curious what is it that you're curious about right now?

SPEAKER_01 3:30

Yeah, I I guess um as you mentioned, I've been in sport for a long period of time. So um, a number of different sports at the elite level. So all my uh I guess previous stuff's been around sporting performance, on-field performance, whether it that's me as an athlete or making athletes get the most out of himself. But um, yeah, as you mentioned, I'm at a new club now, about six months in, um, and probably a club that's um trying to go through a process of getting back up the up the ladder. So um thinking long-term, thinking strategy. So, and also um myself and another um practitioner a couple of years ago I started what we know what's called the AFL High Performance Association. So, thinking about um how we as practitioners can come together and um work towards um something bigger than just us. So I think probably the thing I'm curious right now about is thinking a bit more long-term strategy, um, trying to implement things that actually outsay us, I suppose. So where I'm at at the moment, um, who knows how long I'll be here, but I'm hoping that the things that we can set up now, whether that's my department, whether it's a football club in general, whether it's the high performance association I spoke about, actually leaving something behind that we can um a bit of a legacy, I suppose. So the thing I'm curious about is more the the long-term strategy, how we can, you know, what what's what makes up culture, all those type of things, more so than just the on-field sporting performance I've dealt with for close to 30 years.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

Yeah. I love that, and I think it's really nice. You use the word legacy, and I think it's quite nice that what you're doing is what you're doing setting up now, you know, can go on to help others. Yeah. And I think what's what's lovely about when I was doing some research on your background is that you know there's probably an awful lot that you'll bring in, because you've had quite a varied background from being the professional athlete and now kind of all the way through into the you know, through the academia, the MBA, and now kind of doing you know, all the work you're doing. So one of the things with this podcast for first-time listeners, and just to kind of break down how the conversation will go today is we're always looking at how do we get the best out of ourselves, and you know, it'd be great to explore that from how you over your you know career have got the best out of yourself, or how you're getting the best out of individuals, and then also how do we get the best out of others because I think it's great that when we we've sometimes we're great at working out how to optimize ourselves, but we're not always then brilliant at how do we get support, the the others get the best out of themselves, so it'd be great to kind of explore that with you. And then I think for listeners who are, you know, are gonna give us an hour of their time on the dog walk or stroll in or they can mute to work, that we kind of help bring it all together. So the final bit is gonna be a so what piece because I think it's important that we can have a really good conversation, but if then if there's if there's no kind of okay, no action or no change or challenge at the end, um you know, ultimately the mission of this podcast is to try and help you know shine some insights and to help people kind of make those little nudges towards uh their better futures as well. Does that sound okay? Sounds great. Awesome. So we start with you know, you're getting the best out of yourself or optimizing yourself, where does that land with you?

SPEAKER_01 7:06

Yeah, um, I guess it's probably two parts. So um the first part being an ex-athlete, so is the physical part. But um, so I think um the more physically active and fit you are, then I think the that definitely helps, it keeps you sane more than anything. So there's things I do there from a physical point of view that's um that help me. But I guess the other part's the the mental aspects. So sometimes you can get in our industry and business, whatever it is, you can get really consumed by the short term. So we get judged every week. We have a performance review every week. So whether we win or lose that game. So that's that basically um it's easy to get really worked up with that. So from a mental health or mental well-being point of view, um, trying to remove yourself from that wins or loss because and it's a those that aren't aware, the AFL's um it's it's in Australia, it's massive. That's the biggest sport in Australia, and I'm at one of the biggest clubs in Australia at the moment, which is not performing how it wants to. So how we try and stay calm, stay even in those situations in terms of what we do for ourselves, that's really important because it's easy to get um really sucked into the result of the weekend. So I guess, and that's why I mentioned briefly before about the strategy. So something that helps me is by having a bit more of a long-term focus of where I want to be in a year or two, where's this team want to be in a year or two? So trying to move away from the week-to-week performance and think about more, all right. So, why are we doing what we're doing? How are we trying to get this group better? Um, we've got a really young group. How are we trying to help these people get better? So, to answer your question in a roundabout way, there's probably two parts to it. Firstly, physically, I think if you're physically healthy and um doing the right thing there, then it helps you. But secondly, rather than trying to move yourself in the short-term wins and losses, whatever in whatever business you're in, because that's easy. But I always feel like if you can think longer term, then that helps um navigate the small ups and downs you get along the way. Whether that's in our space, whether it's an athlete gets injured on the weekend, at the time it feels like the biggest thing, but if you can actually fast forward to the reason we're pushing these guys is to make them resilient for um two or three years' time. So think about a bit longer term rather than shorter term. It's probably the way I also keep mentally saying when you're under pressure.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Yeah, and I think it's and it's interesting you say that the two parts, because and uh it'd be interesting where it sits with you because I've always seen them go hand in hand, and they you know, sometimes you have to be physically fit and look after yourself and put your priorities to almost help people come mentally be able to deal with those challenges because you know I think for like you said in Australia you're you know where you're at, that's a really high pressure job, isn't it? And so for people listening that aren't, you know, who maybe unfamiliar with the sport, you know, when you or unfamiliar with sports, there might be leaders listening going, oh what's it like for a you know high-level performance? Is it director that level that um you know the pressure's always there, isn't it? So you've got to be able to manage that pressure, like there are a lot of leaders managing that pressure, and so you've got to be in the right state of mind to be able to constantly do that. So just just curious with that, then what is it? Have you got any how's that mental resilience built up? Is that a skill that you've worked on? Is that something just happens over time?

SPEAKER_01 10:34

I think um I think your past experience definitely shapes you. So when you if you've been through these type of things before, you understand it. So to your point, um, I guess if you look at us, so so we train, um, we got a training session, and we'll have seven or eight TV cameras at every training session, um, photographers at training session, basically there's people, um, there's supporters live tweeting what happens during training. So there's all these things that's um that are happening, but so by the time we get off the training track, it's basically in the media what's happening in that training session. So when I said about looking after yourself, it is it can be a real mental load if you end up making decisions or you can end up making decisions based off worried about what people are going to say about that training session. So um it's a very public um environment to be at. So you go out to training, you've got a plan, and there might be a situation where you say, Well, okay, we've got this plan. This player, um, for the long-term good of this player, he has to do this training session. But for the short-term good of me, he shouldn't do it because I know that if he gets through this training session, nothing happens to him, then that's takes pressure off me today. But what it doesn't do is it doesn't take pressure off you when he breaks down in a month or six weeks' time. So it's trying to remove yourself from those short-term um outcomes and think, right, what are we doing this? Why are we doing this? Are we doing it for the long term to make this player better and this club better? So that's when we're at a rebuilding club like I'm at at the moment. It's trying to think, as I said, trying to think bigger picture. And the only way you can do that is actually having, I guess, the experience of having been through it before, or having um, I guess, the foresight to think that this training session now is not the most important training session of this club. In in another two years' time, this training session is just another training session, but right now it feels like it's the most important thing. So that's what I mentioned before about trying to navigate the smaller, um, you know, the smaller humps if you can think long term. So I don't know if I've answered your question, but I guess that just gives you a bit of an insight into some of the pressure that you might be under. And then, like yeah, I know there's times when you a player is leaving the track with an injury, and you can you look across to the um to the hill, and there's all these TV cameras that are following this player off the track, and you know straight away that that's going to be in the on the six o'clock news that night, or but it's trying to remove yourself from that. That's the that's a trick. And how you do that, it's literally trying to um think beyond this training session and beyond this um this week performance and think why we're doing what we're doing.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

Uh one of the things I picked up from that. So, firstly, wow, okay, I wasn't, I certainly wasn't aware of that. Yeah, okay, that that does take it to a new level, doesn't it? Definitely. That must, you know, one of the things I picked up from that then is that is quite a strong, resilient mindset you've almost got to have because you there's some brave decisions there, isn't it? Because you know, if you've if you've if you've made a decision that that player shouldn't train in the long-term benefit, but you also know that that's then also going to be on the six o'clock news to say, oh, such and such hasn't done it. You know, there is a lot of spotlight. So I guess that does take quite a bit of a skill and being resilient in kind of to make those calls because it would be easier, wouldn't it, in the short term, like you've said.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

So, you know, wow, okay. It's easier, it's easier in the short term to not make those calls because you know that okay, I'm gonna take pressure off me today by not doing this because I know that the easiest way to take pressure off me today is to be conservative in what in what I do in this training session. So you know that, and that's by not putting any type of risk into this training session. But you know that if you don't actually push uh the envelope to a certain degree and push them to um increase that resilience, you know that as soon as games start, then they won't be ready. So that's the that's the mental um resilience you need to say, I know this is this could put more pressure on me today by um pushing the envelope a little bit, but I know that in the long term we have to do this to prepare these athletes.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

Yeah, and you put you putting there, you you put in, you know, you you use the word risk there. It's the risk of you, but a risk of them, isn't it, as well. So it's managing the risk across the whole thing, and I guess.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

Yeah. And it's interesting when you talk about risk. So one of the one of I think you need a few things that you um you stand by. So one of the things that I talk about is um appetite for risk. And I'll talk to all my staff and wherever I work about risk taking, and it's um and how you decide what risk is worth taking and what isn't. So um on the so I'll talk about calculated versus reckless risk. So every training session we do or every decision we make, there's an element of risk to it, but is it a calculated risk? So have I looked at this player and said, right, this training session is appropriate for this day. And I know we're talking about sport a lot here, but that's obviously where I've um where I work. So you look at a training session, you say, right, this for this training session, it's a risky training session for these um certain reasons, but it's a calculated risk because they've had um gradual progression to be able to handle this training session, they've had enough rest and recovery to be able to handle the intensity we give them. Um it's it's not we don't train and get it this intensive another three days, so I know there's enough recovery off the back of it. So then you know, from a risk point of view, it's calculated. Whereas if it was if you were going in saying, right, we need to do a hard training session today, but they're coming, they're sore than what they were from the previous session. We've got players who are just coming back for another injury. Um, we've got a game in a day or two's time. That's a reckless risk where you've actually trained to a level that you're not ready for. So when you talk about risk taking, it's the old calculated versus reckless. Um, and I think there's a risk matrix out there somewhere that talks about um the um, I guess the outcome, the probability of the outcome, and um whether it's a low probability or a high probability, and then the if the outcome is catastrophic versus a minor um outcome. And then when we use that um, I guess that risk matrix to also work out whether a risk is worth taking or whether it's um too much risk.

SPEAKER_00 16:53

But I think if there's so much that kind of hands over to business um as well, because I think you know what you're doing as I interpret it is you're developing players, aren't you? So if it's building resilience in players, if it's getting players ready, can they perform well at the weekend? Which is the kind of the the role, isn't it? Whereas in business, but also we're trying to develop people and we're trying to develop humans in the thing, and sometimes it it's we're still trying to push people, and one of the things I see in my world is that you've got somebody that is performing really well in the role they're doing, but we try and push them into give them more stuff, more stuff, more responsibility, more responsibility, but without actually preparing them for the responsibility that goes with it, and so the risk is they push and push and push, and then someone can't do the job, or they leave because of the risk. And actually, what we're saying, what I'm hearing from you, where that the kind of we are talking about sport, but I think where it kind of transcribes in into the business world is the fact that you know it's thinking on that long-term basis of going right, if we do this and we do this and we do this well, then the outcome's more likely to be that. Whereas if we don't do this or we do this this way and this way and this way, then the risk could be greater. So I I think that's really nice, and there's definitely a lot.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

Yep. It's um it's a bit like um, so, and we have it a lot in our our industry where people might be a strength and conditioning coach, they might be a physio, um, they could be an assistant coach, and then they're good at that role they currently do. So without any type of leadership or management training, um, someone, a GM of football or a director of sport will say, All right, this person's a really good um S and C coach, strengthening mission coach, let's make them head of performance. So then all of a sudden they're no longer in the gym. They're actually now in meetings, they're planning training, they're talking to coaches, they're talking to board members. It's a totally different role. But for some reason, people think, oh, well, they're good at that role, let's elevate them to the next role, which is it's a it's a totally different um position. They're no longer in the gym, which is what they're good at. So you see some people to your point who um get elevated because of what people think they might be able to do, but they don't prepare them correctly to be able to handle what's needed in that role.

SPEAKER_00 19:17

And and and just on that point, I guess as an element you you said about the young, the young environment you're in and the and the development team. And I guess also, you know, we know from athletes there's a physicality bit, but there's a mental bit as well, isn't there? So obviously, you know, and if you've got if you're a young player coming through that system, you know, and you've got to go to that training system and that training um session, and you see all those cameras too, that's also gonna play in your mind, isn't it? So, you know, helping them develop that kind of for that level of pressure and for that, and that's one of the things, you know, from my experience of elite sport, that's the that's the other part of athletes that we forget, isn't it? That you know, yes, we see these physical specimens, and yes, they can lift brilliant in the gym, and yes, they're awesome, they're the sport, but they are still humans, and what goes on in their head, we've also got to help them support get ready for that part as well.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

Absolutely, and you see guys who in the on the train track look like they're the best player in the competition, and they get to game day and there's something there that's missing, so there has to be there has to be a mental element to that.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

No, definitely. Well, I mean, one of the things I picked up when you were talking, when you uh, you know, there's a passion and a smile when you're talking. I don't know if that you're you're aware of that, but you know, when you were talking, there's I can there's a genuine energy kind of uplift. I'm just curious then, you know, why do you what is it why do you do what you do? What is it that's still driving you to be passionate about putting these long-term things in?

SPEAKER_01 20:47

Yeah, I think um I think you're a product of your past to a certain degree. So so I've when I finished playing cricket, um, yeah, played for over a decade. Um, you know, you could say luckily or unluckily, I was in Australia playing during Argully Australia's best ever era of um of cricket. So um I was a I was a bowler, so we had guys for those that follow cricket, guys like Glenn McGrath, Shane Warren, um, Brett Lee, these guys, the same, pretty much the same age as me. So um I never got the opportunity to play test cricket. So then um put everything into that, never got the chance. Um, had a decent enough career as a first class cricketer without going to the next level. So I finished up and then moved into strength and additioning and bowling coach with a um professional state team here in in Australia. And then it wasn't until probably um, I don't know, 10 years post cricket that um did my MBA, and then we had to go through um why we do what we do, and then it spoke about you know significant things in in your past that actually shaped you. And I was thinking back and I thought, well, I never really achieved what. achieved in or what what I set out to achieve in cricket. So I was I felt like I was a bit of a failure and always felt that. And then other people who I know who I'm close friends with who are Olympic athletes who world champions, um silver medalists but never won Olympic gold. So then they also felt like they were a failure. So started to make me think, well, and I'd always sort of gravitated towards people who weren't necessarily the the best players in the team who might be the player who just got dropped. I'd always go and speak to that player and try and um help that player out, help them get better what things are they lacking that's keeping them out of the team. So they're the ones I gravitated towards and I was trying to think why. And then I guess I thought well because I'd never achieved what I wanted to achieve I wanted to try and help people achieve what they set out to. But then I guess the the part to it was I also realized that not everyone can. So I couldn't um my mates who um had issues couldn't and then that really affected myself and these people after their after their sporting career. So what it was so basically that's a long-winded um answer but the reason I do what I do is to try and help people achieve what they see how to achieve but not at the expense of their physical or mental wellbeing. Because I've seen a lot of people who have actually suffered pretty badly through not being able to achieve what they set out to achieve. And when you're at the proper point of sport not many people do. So the odds are that most people won't achieve it. Doesn't mean we don't do everything we can to try and help them do it. But if a player doesn't win a premiership with the AFL team if he doesn't play cricket for Australia if he doesn't win Olympic gold it doesn't mean he's um failed it's just how we have that balance to I guess your off field with your on field.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

So that's basically why I do it I love that and I think and so much of that resonates because I think you're right you know elite sport is is challenging isn't it and we you know that and for so many reasons people don't get to the pinnacle of what they need to be.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

And the other part to it is um even those that do so there's a lot of people who have reached and they still leave their career feeling like they haven't achieved what they set out to and everyone who hasn't achieved that thinks this person's mad. This person's a um you know they've they've been part of a EPL championship winning team they've um they've won an Olympic gold medal they're a world record whatever it is and they still leave the the game um you know disappointed with their career and think how can that be possible so so that's where I think um the whole mental well being part of um an athlete is so important. How do you how do you balance that so you know what's your kind of is there a a philosophy that you kind of because I I mean what and how do you is that something specifically you work with an athlete is that a subtle thing or do you actually put that aside with an athlete and that is that discussion that you would have yeah so it's it's not necessarily a discussion I'd have with the athletes it's more about trying to make them realise and it's trying to not um make them um consider themselves just a footballer or just a cricketer or just a Olympic athlete it's it's about how their whole life is um rounded that's just part of them. So it's it's basically everyday it's everyday conversations you have with them it's it's um it's driving them 100% to try and get the most out of themselves as an athlete that's that's not um that's not what I'm talking about. But it's also understanding that beyond just being an athlete they are still a person what are they doing outside of the sport dealing with um our welfare staff in terms of what are they doing at uni what are they you know what are they doing for work all those type of things um trying to help them from that point of view so I think it's more that rather than necessarily having that conversation with them to try and realize they're more than just um coming here every day as an athlete.

SPEAKER_00 26:05

Yeah I like that and I guess that and you talked about what you were doing in the long term and what you were doing with that elite before and the word culture kind of resonated when you were saying that you know those those daily conversations saying yes you are an elite athlete but you're also John who's got a you know might be doing studying and you might have you know an you know a a poorly parent or your grandparent or something you know there's lots of other things that's going on in the world or the pressure might be coming from somewhere else or the expectations you're setting on yourself. So I think those daily conversations and how people talk to themselves but also how they talk to others and the environment I think is really really important in in lots of situations and I'm assuming a lot more in elite sport.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

Yeah and especially when like the the examples I used earlier on around the scrutiny that we're under if if if you can't disassociate yourself with um you as an athlete or you as a um director of performance and you that's all you can think about yourself as. If you start to see yourself in the media as being a failure in that aspect then you'll think your whole life's a failure. So it's the important part and that's when you when you asked before about how do I you know how do I think about balancing the scrutiny I think that's part of it that you don't see yourself as just um you in your role you see yourself as um more than that. So and that's why when I spoke about always thinking long term what legacy you can lead beyond because I know regardless of what happens at training today if someone gets injured if we have a bad training session if we lose on the weekend you're still thinking long term and you're still thinking how can I make those players better how can I make this place better when I've finished I think that's the other way that you can balance it up as well.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

I like that I like that so one of the things I I'm I'm picking up and I think we're moving into that is you know in the role that you're doing and looking at these long-term strategies you know part of this is also you know I think you talked very articulately your journey and how you know the experiences that you've gone through have kind of shaped you and you're using those to now kind of go in the and the word empathy I felt that there was quite a high level of empathy in in in what you do and how you do it.

SPEAKER_01 28:23

So then now you've got you are in the role you're in and your part of you and part of your role is to develop other people so if we kind of just look at developing others what have you kind of picked up you know you've got some young athletes at your club how do you help you know is there any frameworks that you use or is there anything that you do to try and help support develop others yeah so I think um the the easiest way when you're thinking long term the easiest way to get a short term hit is be more directive with what you do tell them what what you do I think that's it gets a short term result but I think a longer term better outcome is when you empower others so um that's the first part but I think secondly by having a um I guess an aligned if I if I think about just my my department to start so having an aligned strategy across a whole footy um program or football um program is how you best is the best starting point. So and having people to buy into that it's easy to say but I think the best way people buy into that is if they feel like they've had some ownership in creating that strategy. So um I guess when I started here a couple of months ago and had another club that I was at previously was in a really similar situation. So the first thing I did was try and just ask as many questions as I can about where we are as a as a club and as a department. And then from here I started to put together um yeah so questions such as what do we do that um might surprise others um what do we do that's is uncommon in elite sport um if everyone else knew what we did what would still make us different just try and find out what our what our points of difference are um so um what's holding us back is it is there knowledge is it resources is it equipment trying to ask as many questions as you can trying to find out first of all where the holes are how we can get better um how we want to be viewed internally and externally so um the two places I've come into had really hard runs in my department so a lot of injuries a lot of scrutiny from the media so there's obviously a bit of scar tissue there from when I started so trying to get as much information as I can and once I've done that then try and find out what our um points of difference are what the what the staff find out as being um what we do well what we need to get better at what we need to change what we need to keep all those type of things then from there we um developed um two to three key things that we wanted to try and work on so um for so one when you talk about frameworks one of the frameworks I used was um from a business point of view uh VRIO so um I think so it's basically what so you're looking at what you do what you do different to the opposition so and if what you do so the VRIO so if what you do different is valuable so as an example in in our space I'll use our space so we've got um a lot of knowledge in our department so it's obviously valuable to have knowledge in your department the next thing is it rare well so if it's if it's rare and um valuable then you can say well um okay it's reasonably rare but it's other people have a lot of knowledge in their department as well. The next stage is can you imitate it? So if you can imitate it you might have so you what you've got's valuable um it's rare but people can imitate it so that means you've got a short term competitive advantage because you might get an advantage for a period of time but then after a year or two other people can just get um other clubs can get people who've got the same amount of knowledge as what you have so then that's not a sustainable competitive advantage. But if it is rare if it's hard to imitate and the last part is do you have the organizational structure to be able to take advantage of it? So there's there's the O. And if you have got if you can say yes to all four of those then you've got a sustained competitive advantage. So I asked all the questions to my staff come up with a couple of little things and then we had a couple of strategies or a couple of um I guess things that we're trying to to live by and then we worked out whether those couple of things give us a sustained or just a um temporary competitive advantage and then we start to work out what's um what we live by. So from there we had a couple of um a couple of key points and then that's the first part and the good part there is the staff that actually own that so um and then from there you almost have some enablers under each of those. So each staff member can say right I can actually see my um my job feeding into that and how it can actually help us achieve those two things. So um once you get um staff who have actually had a say in what your department's purpose is your vision and then the strategy behind how you're going to achieve that vision your staff have actually helped create that and then from there they can actually see I know most um most organizations have KPIs for their staff but if you you've basically through that you've actually made your staff come up with their own KPIs because they've created the strategy they've created the purpose they've created the two or three things that you're gonna live by and they've also um decided which enablers they're gonna have under that and then you can start to actually build KPIs to to your staff that actually they can relate to and they're gonna buy into more so um and then the other part to that is when you've got those things in place then the short when I spoke about the short term um hurdles you get along the way we can keep referring back to that. So you can keep referring back to all right we've had a bad training session here but what are we trying to do? What what do we look like in two or three years? This is our vision statement these are our um enablers to help us get there. Yeah we said we'd try and push the players um to make them as resilient and as fit as we can but we also noted that by doing that there's a chance we'll get some injuries along the way so the other key part is also noting how it's done when it's done well, what it looks like when it's done really well, but also what are the risks involved with it. And then once you can say what the risks involved with it are if they come and then you say right so these are the risks are we still happy to go down this path and acknowledge that this might happen generally they'll say yeah we do um and then if things do start to um turn bad down the track or if you have a couple of hurdles you can refer back to that and you can say right we said this can happen. Do we still want to go down this path and then it's easy to say in the cold blight of day when there's no pressure but we said we do it we're down this path we said this might happen do we still want to keep going down and I said yep we'll keep going down this path because we think it's the best way to get where we want to in in two to three years time I I really love that because I was smiling thinking that you know it's somewhere where you can can't we all at times when things aren't going to plan kind of get sidetracked and hijacked by our own minds. And actually what I was what I was coming what I was coming back to in my mind was going you've created this almost a foundation framework to say look this is what we expect that this is what we're gonna do this is why we are what we are why we're different this is our plan this is what we're gonna do this is kind of what we think we can expect and this is kind of what we think the risk might be you know and especially when they say things might feel in the moment things aren't going to plan you can go back to your plan and go no no we almost predicted this was going to happen oh yeah you're right okay cool cool cool okay you know and I think it just grounds you again doesn't it back to that moment of going okay we did say this because I think that the thing is if and we've all had um you know like visions and stuff that have been developed by someone else given to us yeah and when you don't feel like you're part of it as soon as something goes wrong then you say well I didn't I didn't agree to this or I didn't this is not what this is not my vision this is what you you said whereas if from day one if you've actually helped create that um and then you feel like there's an ownership to it then when things um if things don't go perfect because there's always ups and downs then at least you're more likely to say no this is this is where we agreed to go and and you can actually hold people to account to it as well.

SPEAKER_00 36:46

That's the other part because you're not it's not all everyone's yeah let's keep going down this yeah we've had a couple of injuries let's keep pushing um that doesn't always happen there's gonna be people who do question it saying hang on we spoke about this three months ago or two years ago this is where we're gonna get to um and you agree to it so you either you either come along with us or you say no this is um I don't want to be part of this so it actually helps you hold them to account as much as um having something that you're trying to strive towards and I think accountability is a really strong and powerful kind of concept isn't it but I think like even going back to what you were saying if you've if you've held your hand up and said I can see where I fit into this I can see where my role plays and you've they've created almost their own KPIs to say well actually this is what I'm going to be accountable for and then six months down the line as a leader it's really easy for you to just kind of almost show the mirror and went this is this is where you're at aren't you so I I really like that but I also love the and I think it's been shown time and time again hasn't it that you know if you're involved in creating those visions and you're incorrect involved in those frameworks and those strategies and you've created that ownership and you you're empowered by your own role and almost developing your own role because you can it's very obvious where you see your strengths align with it then they are more likely to be motivated towards it as well aren't they? So I think that yeah I think that's a really lovely um I'm I'm sure it doesn't always go as planned just like that because that is part of any kind of like you say any great you all set great intentions at the start and if it's if it's sport if it's business if it's life you know unfortunately things happen don't they that we don't always see um that's right but it gives you a nice framework to be adaptable from and how do you then so you know with the team and things I mean obviously you're recruiting people in for those roles and again what what I picked up from that is the fact that you trust in people that recruiting good people or you know into the role and by the by them all kind of doing those group those kind of group sessions coming into that you're then allowing them to just do their best work aren't you and then allowing them to kind of sit back and go look you know this is what we're employed you to do this is what you're what you're good at doing just go and do it.

SPEAKER_01 39:20

Yeah I think I think so um knowing that I guess the other part was you need to provide people with enough information to be able to do their do their job and um so yeah you you want to allow people to you know say yep you've been employed to do this this is your role so you 100% you need to have some autonomy in your role um but I think also what is dangerous is assume knowledge. So I think of when someone's when someone starts in a role you can't just assume that they know everything about what you want from them as well. So I guess my way of management leadership is to um to try and um show them a lot early on trying to I guess guide them pretty heavily and then when they start to understand a bit more then let the let the range go a little bit more. So um yeah because I've seen um I was at one place for 12 years so I knew that place really well um knew everything about it um went to another place um another football club um and then when I went to the that next football club everyone had been there for 10 to 15 years so there's a lot of assumed knowledge for someone coming in that this is how we do things this is why and I think that was a big lesson to me that even though I was doing the same role things are slightly done differently. So um I learned there that's having assumed knowledge is a bit dangerous. And then even in the previous role I was there for so long people I was there for 12 years but not everyone was so you almost had to make sure that something had been spoken about two or three years ago where you look around and half the club was different from what it was two or three years ago. So um I think the danger is just to um keep rolling through and not revisiting things. So your point around um letting people do their jobs spot on um but I think when someone starts in a role it's almost making sure that they have all the information to be able to do their job and almost not assuming anything to start with. And and how often would you check in so um if someone's new almost daily and it's not like a proper sit down meeting daily but it's a right how you going um if you've got all the information you need for today almost take them through the how the day looks so really early on it's that um football runs on a pretty um it's almost like a cycle so in preseason every week's reasonably similar so the first week you might um go through catch up with that person regularly and then beyond that it might be at certain phases it might fall out to fortnightly monthly go from there but in our I'm really big on making sure that the way you set up your office space you have incidental conversations anyway. So I've been involved in a couple of um redevelopments at football clubs where we've redesigned facilities um and a big part to me is making sure that the flow of the office allows people to be in the right spot so you have those conversations. So there's no danger of me not talking to someone um you know almost daily. So I think one thing I'll try and do is speak to every player and every staff member every week. That's one of my little things I'll do just to make even if it's going to the gym and there's 15 players in the gym and just spending 10 minutes walking around because I think a lot of those conversations you start to find things that you might otherwise not. So position yourself where people have to walk past you move your desk all those type of things that people have to walk past you. So then at least and it's amazing how many conversations you find or things you find out that you otherwise wouldn't have if you're stuck in your in your um office. So to answer your question how often I speak to people it's really when I when they're new it's it's um I make sure I do it really often and then it becomes more um organic after that but you're making some choices there so you're always present as well aren't you?

SPEAKER_00 43:06

Yep no exactly so you you're almost although it might not happen for us there's there's a lot of organic opportunities there for for those kind of interactions to happen I like exactly which is again that long term thinking isn't it going you know long term I might not have to talk to them every day but if I'm in a place where they have to pass me or there's those opportunities on a daily basis then they can happen. So the word change keeps ringing in my mind you know there seems to be a lot of you know you talked about when you were in that club for 12 years and then you were steady but the staff around you was changing and then you went into a role and that was where a lot of them might have been there a while but you were new so there was a change and then obviously you're into a new role so how do you manage change because that's something that you know when I work with organizations um Seems to be the one thing that seems to what it can, I'm not saying always, but it can, you know, change can be quite concerning, it quite can be upsetting, you know, and unfamiliar for people. So, if you do want to spend a little bit of time, if you could, just share in what you do to kind of manage the your change management techniques or anything around that.

SPEAKER_01 44:19

Yeah, um, I think people generally don't like change. Some some people do, but the majority of people are scared of change for a number of reasons. And I think mainly it's because they don't know what it means for them. So if a new person, new manager comes on board, um, in our environment, if it's a change, change of coach, um, change of leader, people start or change of role, someone might um be pushed sideways in their current role. So I think people are a little bit worried about change based off not knowing what it means for them. So um, yeah, to your point, um, I was at the one place for one AFL club for 12 years. So being that there for that long, it was incremental change. The hard part was always thinking how do I keep changing to keep involved with the game. So, in terms of the way I tried to do the way I try, one of my again, talk about I spoke before about calculator versus uh reckless risk taking. Another thing I think of as you know, everyone talks about best practice or gold standard. I try and think about more as better practice. And the reason I use better practice is because I think by looking at what's best practice or gold standard in our industry now will not be best practice in two years' time. So if you think if your if your mindset is right, what we're doing now is the best, then you're not necessarily you're gonna try and prove it's the best. So you're gonna find ways to say, no, what we're doing here is the best. You're gonna try and it's almost self-fulfilling prophecy, and then you start to miss out on things that that might be coming. So I know I'm not necessarily answering change here, but I'm thinking this is the incremental change I was talking about in my previous plays. So as you think about better practice, it's right, what we're doing now, we think we're doing this really well, but how can we get better? What new um technologies out there to make us more efficient? Um, what innovation can we use? You're always thinking better because what your program, what my program is now, was very different to what it was 10 years ago. So that's keeps um incrementally evolving. Um, so that's the first part. But then when I changed clubs, there was um it wasn't incremental change. Um, it was it was a big change that we had to make. Again, we've been there, it was my first year, everyone else, basically my department senior leadership had been there for 10 plus years. It was a really big, successful club previously, but they'd had a couple of poor years and they hadn't changed. So to me, it was trying to um make change to people that didn't want to change. So, and how how do you do that? So um one of the models that I use for change is called um, I think it's called Cotter's eight-step model. So um not sure if you've heard of that one, Andy, but it's basically um goes through eight steps to change. So the first one is creating an urgency for change. The eight steps create urgency for change. So you have to make people realize that change is needed. So by that, the way I did that was I was at a club that had been really poor for two years, had a lot of injuries. Um, the people there didn't want to change because they were comfortable in their environment, but trying to make them realize that change was needed. Because if we didn't change, we're gonna get more injuries and we're gonna be poor for as long as we as long as we're here. So create an urgency for change. Second one, um, actually start to build a bit of a um coalition that actually want to enforce that change. So you might so after you start to talk about the importance of change, some people are gonna believe you, others will say, nah, he's talking rubbish here. So you need to try and find those people who actually believe that you need to change. So they're the ones that are gonna start to help you um, I guess, get this message out there. Then once you've done that, start to get a vision. I've spoken about how we got our vision here. So start to make people involved in creating that vision, how it's gonna look when done really well, what are the dangers involved with it, all these type of things. So then they start to think, oh, maybe it's you know, maybe this is something that isn't as scary as what I first thought it was. Then the next part, you get more people involved. Once you start to um get that vision, you start to sell that vision, um, you start to ask people questions about what they want to look like in a couple of years, um, ask some questions, which that helps bring them along for the for the journey as well. Then um fifth level is um you start to remove any obstacles that are involved with this change. So um in our space, if we're trying to change the way that we're going to train, well, some of the obstacles might be um the past, um, the past while they used to train, whether it's a um physical obstacle or a mental obstacle, um, whatever it is, think about what, ask questions about why we've trained like this. What's the, you know, what's the industry currently telling us that we have to be like, so then just actually start to see what what's needed there. And then once you've made this change, you have to start to celebrate some of the really small wins. So for us when I first started, we were so bad um when I first started at the previous place that a small win might have been today's training session was actually harder than the same training session this time last year. It was actually um and we got through it, we didn't get an injury. So then, so that's a small win, and we covered recovered the next day, and it was good. So you we so what we were doing is we were having presentations to the playing group and the staff every week, comparing this time to last year and celebrating those wins. That's okay, we're actually better here. Um, even though we might you might not necessarily realize it, but we put graphs up to show that we've done this much compared or this much compared to this much the same time last year. Start to celebrate those wins, people start to build um belief in where you're going, yeah, and that becomes the the new norm. So you start to embed that change is the way that you do things. Um, so that Codders eight-step model I found pretty successful in the last um two places I've been to try and start to implement change, and then you give people a a um a choice of whether they want to come along with it. You give everyone well, what this is the way I do it. All right, so give everyone a chance to come along with it. And then if you start to see people who aren't um willing to embrace that change, well, they've made the choice not to come along rather than you sacking them after 12 months. Um in the end they want to be there, but we've given them the opportunity to come along, or otherwise they're out of the building.

SPEAKER_00 50:43

Wow, that I feel really quite powerful. Yeah, that that whole I could almost even when you were telling it, I could I could imagine each step along the way, and I think it's a it's a really lovely framework that and I appreciate you.

SPEAKER_01 51:01

Yeah, and the yeah, the hard part is um people do revert back to the old way as well. So we had um, so in those, it sounds simple, those eight steps, celebrate the small win sounds simple, but if someone gets injured, then they're gonna say, Oh, we we need no, this change is not good. It starts to reinforce that what they did previously was right, which is why it's so important to go back three or four steps to create your vision um and how you're gonna get better and what it looks like when done well, what are the risks involved? Because then you can always refer back to that. If you don't do that step, then you can so it's okay to say, like in again, in my space, right? This is how we're gonna train. Don't tell anyone about how you're gonna train, you just go out and do it. And if people, if you get an injury or two, which always happens, people are gonna say, What's he doing? He's mad, he's he doesn't know what he's talking about. But then if you can actually set the framework to start with as to why you're doing it, how it's gonna look like when done really well, how's it look like, what what are the risks involved with it, then you can always refer back to that at the start, um, rather than just um train and or do whatever your your industry is, and then things will generally go either you'll have your ups and downs, it actually helps you ride out those speed humps a bit.

SPEAKER_00 52:18

I think it's really uh I think it's really powerful, and I think there's lots of lots of insights in there, especially when I listen back to this. I think there will be an awful lot taken, and I'm and I've got no doubt there's lots of listeners that probably driving a car or walking thinking I need to pause this and write this framework down, so we can uh we'll make sure that there is that that's there for them. Because I think that was but it's really nice, and I think like you know, what I was listening there was you know, you're you're trying to understand what it's like for a person going through that, and like you've said, you know, we are we are creatures of habit, I know I am, you know. I I I've I love a routine, you know, um for me with things like school holidays, only routines thrown out because you you've got all those other stuff, and it does take a while to adapt, doesn't it? And I think it's accepting that. And again, if for people who are non let's say not always bought in 100%, I think when you're when you're demonstrating the short wins, again, it's something you went back to before that kind of resonated for me was you know, it's those those better steps all the time, isn't it? If if the it doesn't have to be what you I love that the fact of what is best practice today won't be best practice in two years, and a lot, I mean, look with with technology, with AI, with everything that's going on in the world now, you know, there's the there's the whole evolution of everything is changing. So you like you said, if if you've got to have that constant small steps of improvement, but also what I kind of picked up from you is that if every day you're making small elements of change to become better, then change is happening all the time. We become familiar with change as well, don't we? So actually, as you start to make those things, um, but I thought that framework was really nice. One of the things that I feel I'm I'm I'm conscious of time, and I know I'm taking up your your time, which is um which is very precious because I know you're a busy guy and you've got a lot of stuff on. So, one of the things I'd like to do, if you don't mind, is kind of move into a kind of some advice for the listeners because I think you know you've shared some really lovely models of which um I think are going to be really helpful to a lot of the people listening. So I appreciate you sharing them and also with the examples you gave, I think were really quite powerful and insightful. So I guess you know, for people listening, if they're in sport business and you kind of you touch on everything, don't you, which is lovely. I think you tick lots of boxes for listeners, which is which is great. You know, what kind of three practical things do you think that people could could try today to whatever whatever the position they're in, if they're in a leadership position, you know, founders of business, or actually working in sport, trying to get to your level?

SPEAKER_01 55:07

Three things. Um you're testing me here. I've given you a um a few things that I might end up repeating myself. It's good, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:16

But I think it's good that we run well, it they might be the three, you know. I think that yeah, there have to be three new. Sorry, yeah. Let me just reframe the question. If we were to summarize this, what were the three things that people should take away that they could start doing?

SPEAKER_01 55:30

I I think probably the the one of the as I said right from the start, I think um having alignment. So if I look at the I've been at three AFL clubs now, a couple other, I've probably been at six or seven different elite sporting environments, and I think the ones that's um do it really well are the ones that are aligned across the different areas. So in in my role, so I I'm I manage um strength and conditioning, sports science, nutrition, physios, doctors, um, analytics. So there's a it's a pretty big team, and I think teams that don't do it so well don't have alignment across those areas. So one thing I reckon practical would be if you are managing more than one area, make sure you've got alignment and a vision for your for your department, for your business, whatever it is, have something you're trying to work towards and a bit of a longer term approach to that because that actually helps you navigate the the speed humps along the way. So I think I think that's that's one thing, but it also has to be something that you've helped and your staff actually have have um a bit of buy-in with. That's a that's one thing. The other thing is your own purpose, why why you're doing what you're doing. I think when I found mine, like I was just going along just doing what I was doing, and when I found out why I do it, it actually made it it sounds a bit um stupid, but it actually made it a lot clearer as to why I'm doing things, and it actually helped me as well. So I reckon they're two of the two of the main things. Um yeah, so trying to think what else I've got for you. But they're yeah, in terms of them, so yourself, so what you why you do what you do, think about why you do it. And I think you you're basically part, you're you're shaped off your past experience. So it'll come, it'll be something to do with why you do it based off something that's happened to you, whether it's a big event or a small event, or whether it's your family history or whatever it is, um, it'll be something to do with that. But secondly, try and get whatever wherever you are, if you're managing people, try and make sure you have alignment and talk to your staff. Don't the assume knowledge part is important, don't just assume people know what you're talking about or what their what their job is.

SPEAKER_00 57:43

Yeah, and if it if I could add a third, I think I love your celebrate the small wins, doesn't matter how small they are, because I think we do, I think a lot of people forget to do that, you know. That they're they very much sit there and go, Well, that's not gone well. Let's oh our plan, but actually we forget to turn around and go, Well, that has gone the way we thought it was gonna go. That is actually a win, even though you know, and I think it's important because life is busy and stressful, and we forget to stop and reflect and go, actually, this is going well. You know, we all so I think it's which I love that the fact that he did those presentations just to say, look, this is a win. It's a little win, but it's a win. And if we have another little win next week, then it's another win, and it would it's going in the right direction.

SPEAKER_01 58:28

Especially when when you whether it's a team or whether it's a business, when when it feels like there's no, you know, there's no wins inside, you can actually there's always wins to look for. It's it's the bigger wins that maybe seem like they're a long way off, but there's always small steps to help you get towards that bigger win. So you need to celebrate those, otherwise, um, if all we do is in sports celebrate the the actual on-field wins, then you might not get many, so you're gonna be pretty miserable.

SPEAKER_00 58:54

Yeah, and and and also I think winning is a is a um an accumulation of little wins, isn't it? Yeah, you know, the accumulation of little wins actually gets the big win at the end, and I think it's important to acknowledge those, and that's great. What's one principle you wish every leader understood?

SPEAKER_01 59:10

Um one principle. I think probably going back to um it's not really a principle, but I guess it's something understanding that people think they're always trying to climb the ladder because they feel like that's what they should be doing. But I think it's more a case of make sure you're ready for it. So I think what happens a lot of the time in in my industry is people say, I want to be a director of performance. So they strive to get there, but maybe maybe it's not for everyone. So if they're if they're a really good practitioner or they're really good in their current role, maybe that's there's nothing wrong with actually being comfortable in in doing that. So I guess what I what I would say is um don't do something just because you think you have to, or because that's the next step in your career. If you if you want to do it, strive everything you can to get there, but um make sure that you're prepared for when you get there. So if you are going to be um a senior leader or a manager, or in my role at director of performance, it's a different um profession compared to a strength initiation coach. So you need to make sure you've done the um whether it's the study or the PD to actually prepare for it. So um I guess what I'd say is everyone's in a rush, but make sure you're ready for that jump. Because if you make the jump too early, you can stuff it up and then it might turn your off it um totally. So again, I've gone around a bit of a long way, but I'd say um if you want to get somewhere, prepare yourself over the next two to three years and think what have to do that to get there in two or three years. Um, because you get there before you're ready, or if you're not really fully invested, you think you just should do it, then um it's a hard enough job as it is.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:56

Now I think I I love that, and I guess that also aligns with that part that you turned out and I said like, and there was a there was an almost a light bulb moment you turn out when I realized my why and my purpose, and actually where you sat, you know, and I think what I've what I've certainly picked up from this conversation is how aligned they are, you know, your purpose for you as an athlete and what what you experienced and now what you're developing with your team and the the younger athletes that you do definitely seem to be really well aligned. Where for other people they might not have that alignment, so actually their their job might be the best. Wherever they're at, that might be the best thing. So I think that's really, really nice. And I appreciate for lots of things you've shared today that you know. I think you know, you are the kind of person I've had to kind of almost stop asking questions because I thought I could have gone on and asked about eight million and gone really depth, but then it makes it a two-hour thing, and you'll everything.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:51

I think you um think your point there around your purpose um is right. So if I speak to someone and their purpose is to be the best um physio in the in the AFL, right? So that's what they want to do, or that's not their purpose, that's their goal. But if that's their goal, and then in the next breath, I say, I also want to be ahead of medical. Well, hang on, they're not aligned. So if you if you then move in to be ahead of medical, you're no longer a physio. So then you're actually moving away from what your goal is and what you want to do. You you're moving into that head of medical role because you think that's the next step, rather than saying, Well, I'm not ready for that. You you might your your goal right now is to be the best physio in the AFL. And in two years' time, you might say, Yeah, I'm I've done that, and now I want to move to the next level. And I guess that's what I meant when don't jump before you um feel like you're ready. Don't do it because people think you should. Make sure that it aligns with what you want to do and what you want to get out of it and what actually um satisfies you as a you know as a um person, I suppose.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:54

No, I 100% agree, and I think that's why I just um you know I I kind of added to it because I think it is that I think there's uh there's always assumptions, and I know we've talked around that quite a bit, assumptions of knowledge, and there's always the assumption that I should at this stage of my career do this, and I should do this, and I should be striving to do this. Whereas actually, I think if you stop and have a conversation with yourself, is that really what you want to do? Because actually that role might be exactly what you're not passionate about, you know, and that might be you might love watching delivering those rehab plans on the pitch and stuff, and then all of a sudden you're head of medical performance directory and you're sat in a boardroom doing strategy with a whiteboard, you're going, oh the only time I get to see the lads is having a brew in the canteen, you know, and that's you know, so that's great. So just to case go on, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:44

You've been able to explain it much better than me. So uh I'm I'm going around in circles and you've just been able to nail it.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:52

Well, only because you gave it to me, I just moved, I just summarized it. But so if people were looking to follow you, how do people kind of follow the work you're doing and the work that you're doing kind of on the long-term strategy for the lead performance stuff?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:06

I'm pretty I'm pretty private, so there's nothing really, I'm not I'm not writing anything, I'm not um I'm I'm not blogging anything like that, but I do have LinkedIn. So if you want to send me a um follow request on LinkedIn, so you need to make sure you spell my name right because it's um spelled a little bit different. So check me up on LinkedIn Matthew with one T in a I double N E S. Send me a message there and I'll um I'm happy to have a chat. Brilliant, thank you very much. Is there anything you're working on next? Um not really. I'm just having been here for now about six months. I think I'm still I'm six months into a um three-year um strategy, so which we spoke a lot about. So I'm just trying to make sure we get this right. Um yeah, so at the moment, no. Um, but yeah, I'm yeah, just getting started in this new role. So hoping to nail that first.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:01

No, I'm really excited to see what it comes out of it as well. If we could just push it to give one more challenge to the audience and the listeners, what would the what would the one last challenge be?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:11

You're good at these, aren't you? It's um one last challenge. Um, I'm not very good at thinking on my feet here, Andy. Um, I I alright, a challenge is think think how can we do so go back to the my two my two of my things, better practice. So how can we what we're doing right now, how can I make sure that what I'm doing now is still contemporary and still um getting better and keeping up with um with the changes. Now, when you think about with tech and AI and these type of things, I I mentioned what's best now won't be best in two years. You you could argue what's best now won't be best in two weeks. So the challenge to the audience is think better practice. Um Um and how we can keep getting better at what we do. Love that.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:06

Matt, thank you very much for joining me. It's been it's been wonderful, and I really look forward to listening to Pat. To the listeners, uh, any feedback, then make sure you uh send anything over. That would be awesome. Um, make sure you are following us on all of our Apple, Spotify, and YouTube to make sure you're getting all the latest episodes. To Matt, thank you once again. It's been a lovely conversation. And to the listeners, see you next time.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:31

Cheer, Andy.