Unlocking Human Potential with Andy Hosgood

Why Most Leaders Stay Stuck (And How to Break Free) | John Carrington

• Andy Hosgood • Episode 20

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Strategy, decision-making, and the mindset shift from busy operator to effective leader.

In this episode of Unlocking Human Potential, we sit down with John Carrington to explore what it really takes to lead with clarity, confidence, and intention in today’s fast-moving world.

Too many leaders find themselves stuck in reactive mode, firefighting, overwhelmed, and constantly pulled in different directions. But what if the real shift isn’t about doing more… but thinking differently?

John shares powerful insights on:

  • The transition from operator to strategic leader
  • Why clarity is the foundation of performance
  • How to make better decisions under pressure
  • The hidden cost of staying reactive
  • Building trust, alignment, and momentum in your team

This is a conversation about leadership at a human level, understanding yourself, your patterns, and how you show up when it matters most.

If you’re a leader, founder, or ambitious professional looking to step out of chaos and into control, this episode will challenge your thinking and give you practical tools to move forward.

About John 

John Carrington is a Non-Executive Director, business coach, and advisor who’s spent years operating at board level, both nationally and internationally. He’s led organisations as a Managing Director and CEO, navigating complexity, pressure, and the kind of decisions most people avoid. 

 John made the decision 12 months ago to back away from the CEO role and move into a more fulfilling venture helping others thrive as a chair of Vistage. 

What stands out about John is his no-nonsense, pragmatic approach, he’s driven by purpose, focused on results, and known for helping leaders cut through the noise to actually execute, not just plan. 

In this conversation, we go beyond titles and into what it really takes to lead, how you keep pushing yourself when things get tough, how you stay grounded under pressure, and what it means to build both short-term wins and long-term strategy at the same time.

If you’re serious about leadership, not just talking about it, but living it this one’s for you.”

🎧 Listen now and start unlocking your leadership potential.

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SPEAKER_00

Welcome to Unlocking Human Potential. With me, Andy Hosgood, a show dedicated to exploring what it really takes psychologically, behaviourally and practically to help humans thrive through conversations with leaders, founders, coaches, behavioural experts, and people shaping how humans perform and grow. Is this for you? But if you're a leader, a founder, a business owner, or an ambitious professional who wants to do more than just perform, they want to grow, inspire, and bring the best out in themselves and their people, then keep listening. Because the mission is simple to explore how individuals and teams unlock potential in themselves, in others, and the organizations they shape. Every episode is a deep but relaxed conversation built around three core questions. How do you optimize yourself? How do you unlock potential in others? And the best advice for you, the listener. Now, over to the episode. Really hope you find it helpful and insightful. Just before we introduce our next guest, please make sure you press the follow button to keep updated with the latest episodes. Additionally, special thanks to 246 Photography and PixelMade Brands for making this podcast a reality. However, the episode. John! Welcome to the morning. Thank you very much for joining me today. So today's guest is someone who brings real world leadership to the table. Not theory, not fluff, but lived experience at the sharp end of business. John Carrington is a non-executive director, business coach, and advisor who spent years operating at board level, both nationally and internationally. He's led organizations as a managing director and CEO, navigating complexity, pressure, and the kind of decisions most people avoid. John made the decision 12 months ago to back away from the CEO roles and move into a more fulfilling venture, helping others thrive as a chair of vestige. What stands out about John is his no-nonsense, pragmatic approach. He's driven by purpose, focused on results, and known for helping leaders cut through the noise to actually execute, not just plan. In this conversation, I'm going to go beyond titles and into what really takes it to lead. How you can keep pushing yourself when things get tough, how you can stay grounded under pressure, and what it means to build both short-term wins and long-term strategy in the same time. So if you're serious about leadership and not just talking about it, but living it, then this is for you. So, John, welcome to unlocking human potential. Thank you, Andy. It's uh great to be here. No, I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Um, and it was interesting because what our one of our previous episodes, Nikki Allen, who from Haptivate fantastic conversation, and a true innovator of what she's doing in the field of healthcare, and especially with the insoles that she's created. And what for me it was during our conversation when my conversation with her, you kept coming up of being a big part of the influence of her, her support, and and so it was after that conversation. I went, This guy sounds like he's quite an important guy in your life. How do we get him on the podcast? So luckily, she was introduced. Yeah, we had a call, and luckily you said yes. So thank you.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you're welcome. I've got a lot of time for Nikki and what she does.

SPEAKER_00

So uh I'm glad to be here. Yeah, and she had a lot of nice and kind words to say. So we're uh really looking forward to exploring this. So okay, John. One of the things that we always start this podcast, one of the the curiosity sits kind of through a lot of the things that we talk around, a lot of the guests that's coming on. So, what is something you're curious about right now?

SPEAKER_01

Um, the thing I'm I'm most curious about at the moment, I mean, I I've spent my life being curious, um, because that that that's the way you grow. But right right at this moment in time, I'm very curious about human behavior and about patterns that people get into and how to change those patterns for the benefit of those individuals. Um, so I do mentoring, I do uh I run a peer group, um, and actually observing how people are behaving and how very simple things can change those behaviors to give them a much more positive outcome. Um, I just find it absolutely fascinating. There's not, you don't have to suggest very much for somebody to recognize something that they've not seen in themselves. Um, and just watching that, because I I'm really fortunate. I have a one-to-one meeting with um, it's probably 10 or 11 people every month that I get to sit down with for a couple of hours and just ask staff questions and watch them respond and watch the light come on. Um, and and it's fascinating to see. Um, and then it's fascinating to see the accountability that that brings. So if somebody says something out loud, if they say they're going to do something, they do. It's it's incredible. If you say it to yourself, it's easy to give an excuse not to do it. But if you say it to somebody else, suddenly you've made a commitment, and that commitment becomes something quite powerful. And I had a wonderful email this morning. So I had a one-to-one on Monday with one of my guys. Um, we said we could these these things he three things he's gonna do, and this was about his wellness. He's a he's running a big business and it's stressful. Um, and one of his main major challenges was about managing that stress level. So we between us came up with a couple of a couple of things, actually, three things that he was gonna do. I got an email this morning, and he's done all three. These are things that have been on the radar forever, but he's done all three. Um, and he, you know, his I said, How do you feel about it? And he said, I've got more energy and more focused, and I feel really good that I've actually done these things, I've finally done them. So that to me, um, that being curious about what stops people um and what that human behavior is, is absolutely fascinating. Um, and I get and I get to practice on other people, which is great.

SPEAKER_00

And I get a vibe just watching your body language there, that there's a almost a sense of there's a full circle pride piece as well, isn't it? So you've you've heard them do it, you've heard him action it, you've got the feedback of the what it's done and help support him. But actually, even you witnessing that and being involved in part of that process, I I get to I I felt like your your smile was just come beaming through.

SPEAKER_01

It's it's enormously fulfilling to see and to see that progress from from what is a relatively short conversation. I mean, if I look at the two hours I was with him, that would probably only made up 10 or 15 minutes of the conversation. But the impact potentially is lifelong. Um, if he keeps with these habits and now he has the accountability and he started, and half the time it's starting. People don't start things, they have ideas, but they don't start. Starting is where you know if you start, then it starts, it gets momentum, it's slow to start with, but then you as the momentum picks up, you add things in, uh, and it becomes really powerful. And and it gives me a sense of um of well-being that I'm seeing people grow because that's kind of what it's all about. And and I'm gonna reference something here, which I think I think is quite important. What one of the things that I I send out to people before I meet them, especially in a business environment, um, I send them a little video, it's a YouTube video, um, and it's a guy called Simon Sinek. Um, and he has a an 18, it's actually 18 minutes and two seconds. I do I do it so so often. Um, he's got a the video and it's a TED talk, I'll start with why. Now, for if you spend 18 minutes of your life watching that video, it it's about how a business runs, it's how a business engages people. But actually, if you apply it to you as an individual and you understand your own purpose, suddenly things fit into place. You understand why you're doing these things, um, and you understand the reward that you're gonna get from it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, so you know, if you do if you've got 18 minutes to spare, instead of sitting on your phone going through Instagram endlessly scrolling, just watch that one video, and it it, you know, potentially it's life-changing. Um so you know that that's that that's really helpful. But no, it's it's that's that's where my curiosity is at the moment to see how people evolve. No, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_00

And yeah, it is a really powerful 18 minutes. What I will do is stick that link in the show notes as well, because I think for people who are who are engaged with it. And do you so before we kind of delve into the the the meat of the uh of the podcast? I guess just something you picked up there, I'd like to explore. So you said that a lot of people do a lot of talking, but starting seems to be do you feel that when they've watched the video like that and they understand you know the why, the what, and the how, do you think that helps them start? Or is there anything else that you found in your experience that helps them overcome that?

SPEAKER_01

I think um it's just to start something, you kind of need to know where you want it to take you. Okay, you know, if you start with the end in mind, if you if you understand whether that's how you how you want to feel or how you want to be rewarded or whatever, or what you want to do, what you want to achieve. If you start with that sort of end point in mind, you go from what do I want to do to how am I going to do it? Um, you know, I know why I want to do this, but you start working on how do I, not will I or should I, it becomes much more um action-oriented. And you start to look for solutions to questions. You don't if you don't know where you're going, you don't know what the questions are, you would never set off on a journey of well, unless you're a petrol head like me, with without a destination in mind. Um, I will set off on a journey without a destination in mind, and it's quite liberating in some respects. But in in life and in business, it's usually a good idea to know approximately where you want to be. Um, and if you've got that point, um, that that helps you navigate. Uh, you it helps you to to adjust your pathway along the way, and you never get to that actual point. It just doesn't, you know, it's one of those things that you adapt, but you need you need that vision of where do you want to be, and that is how do I want to feel, who do I want to be around, not how much money have I got, how many houses have I got, how many boats have that doesn't really matter, and as you get older, that matters even less. Um, but yeah, having an idea of of what you want your life to look like is a good place to start because then you can work towards that with that how do I question?

SPEAKER_00

I think just pick up on one thing you said, which I thought was interesting. So if you'll just explore if you want one of the things you said is sometimes when the how you actually don't know what questions to ask yourself. So does that where you feel like the role that you play in lots of different hats that you do and what you've done? Do you think that's the power of having someone like a coach or a non-exec director or a good leader next to you that it's because they know what questions to ask to help you kind of well unlock the potential in you?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and I I think um we don't know what we don't know, it's as simple as that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, and and it's you can say that we we just have a limited, a limited sphere of influence. Um, one of the things that I learned, I I was a member of um of a peer group um for for quite a long time. And I joined that peer group because I'd recognize that I didn't, I wasn't fully equipped, but I didn't know what was missing. You know, a nice toolbox, nice shiny tools in it. But when you look into that, you don't know what isn't in there until you need it. And that's the problem. You know, if you have if you if you need something, it's not in your toolbox, then you don't you have to go away and get the tool, but but by which time you might have missed an opportunity or have wasted time or you might take the wrong tool and get it wrong, which is okay because you still learn. But I think understanding that you don't know what you don't know and having people around you that will help you to understand the scope of what's available to you. I one of the I've had a number of mentors in my time as well, so they've been invaluable because that that sort of experience over time, their lived experiences, they they will pass on. Um, and that in itself is very powerful. Um, but the other thing I learned from the peer group is is to is to find knowledge, seek out knowledge, be curious, read books. Um, you know, everybody is too busy to read a book, but you'll drive in your car for two hours to go and see a customer, or you go somewhere and you'll listen to to to rubbish on the radio for two hours. Um why not put an audio book on? Why not just put something on in the background? So seek out knowledge, but make it fit with how you how you work, how you operate and your learning style. I could not sit down and read a book. Okay. So I use what I class as non-productive time to to listen to those things and to find out new things. And it's there's always something, there's always something new. So my my role now is to ask questions, yeah, because a lot of the time people do have the answer, they don't have the confidence, or they haven't looked deep enough for that answer. So encouraging people to find the answer is actually it trains the brain to in a in a different way. Telling somebody is not the same as them working it out for themselves, nowhere near as powerful.

SPEAKER_00

And I guess with that, is if they've said the answer and said the answer out loud and hearing themselves saying it also then turns into that action, doesn't it? And it's more likely to let you started with. No, yeah, exactly. Love that, yeah. Love that. So for first time listeners and John, just to give you a little breakdown of what this the unlocking human potential podcast is around, it's three sections. So we always look at how do we unlock a potential in ourselves, and then how do we get the best out of others, unlock potential in others around us. And then I always feel that, like you said, if you're in the car listening to this and you're gonna listen to us for an hour, you know, we can have a really good conversation, but there's the so what piece, isn't there? So I think what we'll do at the end is the last 10 minutes, let's try and bring it together and really kind of nail down what advice can we summarize for the listeners in that last minute so they can then take it away. Is that all right? Yeah, sounds good. So, you know, when I was doing the the kind of the research for you and I was creating a bio and looking at, and we we already had a pre-call, you know, you've had a really I would say quite cool career from an external looking, you know, and and it's quite exciting. A lot of the things you've done, and you've hold some um some really quite high positions, and especially now I know what you're doing in with your own peer group, which is quite cool, and you know, people looking so I guess my curiosity is you know, what have you learned about how to get the best out of yourself um over that time?

SPEAKER_01

Um I think the first thing I'd say is be brave.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

I think um we underestimate our own abilities quite frequently, and we and we we kind of brought up to not expect too much because we have very loving parents, and I you know, I had a really good childhood. Um, we weren't well off. We we just had a mum and dad um and my brother, they were there for us. Um and it it was it was a nice place to start, but they gave us values. Um and I think what what I I kind of being brave enough to make the tough decision was actually something that I I picked up fairly early on. That sometimes things um aren't comfortable, uh, and and sometimes things you could take an easy route, but actually being brave and taking the slightly more difficult routes is probably going to be better in the long term. Um so you know, when I when I was I was probably in my uh early teens, I recognized something in myself, and and that was from home life, which I hated to be told what to do. You know, somebody telling me what to do, I almost would instinctively do the opposite, right? Which A is very destructive because usually if your parents are telling you what to do, there's a pretty good reason for it, not doing it just for fun, but I was not very good at it. So I at that very, very early age, I knew that I had to be in a position where nobody was telling me what to do, and that kind of shaped my career in some respects, because I looked for things where I had a degree of autonomy and I didn't have somebody breathing down my neck, and I would be judged on what I produced and not how I show up. Um, and and I could use my own judgment, right or wrong, um, to get from A to B. So did I plan to become a CEO right at the start? It was it was a nice thought that I might get there. Um, it was a dream, and which is always good to have. Um, but I but I had this caveat that I don't want anybody telling me what to do. The reality is you've always got somebody telling you what to do, even as a CEO, you've always got somebody that you're accountable to. It might be a shareholder, it might be an investor, but you but you get to a point where you've got the autonomy, and that and that that's really important to me. Um, but that first step is being brave and taking the brave decisions um and stepping out of your comfort zone. And I didn't know what it was at that point, I didn't know it was a comfort zone, um, but I just knew that if I took the right decision at the right at that time, then I would be more comfortable with the outcome, right? Good or bad, but it would be my decision. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00

Makes an awful lot of sense, and I guess the question that's playing around in my mind is if I'm a listener now using my unproductive time productively by listening to this podcast, hopefully. Okay. And the there's somebody saying it's alright to say to be brave, but I'm afraid to be brave. Yeah, what would be the first step that you think someone could do moving forward? So, you know, what would be the baby step if you want to kind of put it?

SPEAKER_01

Okay, I I would maybe look backwards.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Look backwards and say, okay, when was I brave before?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

What did that look like? How did that make me feel? Um, when did I make a decision that was a little bit uncomfortable? It doesn't have to be massively uncomfortable, but when did I make a decision that was a little bit uncomfortable? And what was what happened? And whether it went well or it didn't, what did I learn? And therefore, is it is it worth just being brave one more time, just to step a little bit out of my comfort zone and see what happens. What's what's gonna happen if it goes wrong? So look for evidence that the consequences are not so traumatic that it's gonna ruin your life, you know. You've got to be really careful with it. Yeah, but you know, look at the potential you well, what might happen if it if it goes well, I know what I'm I'm trying to do. If it doesn't go so well, or if it fails completely, what what will I learn from that? What will I be able to take forward with me? And how can I change? That feeling of discomfort to one of curiosity. I'm doing this because I'm curious. I'm doing this because uh I want to move forward. If I don't move forward in that particular thing, what have I learned that will enable me to move forward next time? And I think resilience is what comes into this. Every decision you make is not going to be the right one. You will make mistakes, but it's how you respond to that mistake and how you convert that into some sort of learning because we learn from our mistakes. And trust me, there's lots of mistakes in my in my in my past. Um, and it's it's how you respond to them. Um, and and that's really look for evidence of of your own bravery because we all have it to any degree. There's a little bit in there where you, even if it's in the playground, you stood up to your friend because they were trying to push you to do something you didn't want to do, and you said, No, that's bravery in itself. So look for evidence. Um, and and when you've got that evidence, use that to say, I've done it before, I can do it again. And just it's just little, it's it's pushing the boundaries of that comfort zone, it's not massively breaking through it because that's so uncomfortable, it's gonna make you draw back further. So it's just gradually expanding it and talk to people about it, you know, it's get advice.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, no, there's so many insights in that, and it's an exercise I use in my with my coaches as well. So it was quite nice that you I was I like that, you know. What evidence that's the question? So, what evidence have you got to back up that you're not brave? Uh you've never been brave in the past, yeah. Well, okay, so here we go. Yeah, so I really like that that where you were going with that analogy. So I like that. So if you are listening to that advice, I think that's that's some really good. So again, you know, thinking about yourself, and you know, it sounds like from a very young age you were quite aware of who you were, you know, that whole don't tell me what to do, kind of. Um, and I guess as you've then kind of developed through your roles, and you know, as there anything that I maybe talk as a generalization, you know, from my experience, and then probably my experience of working with people that you know, we go into certain situations, we feel confident in that such situation, we might then be promoted in another situation, and we might be going, We're comfortable being brave, we're comfortable doing things, but other barriers that we might be unfamiliar might kind of lurk in into us. You know, has anything like that ever happened to you or other people that you support that we know listeners who are in leadership positions might be struggling with?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think um I think self-doubt is is one of those things that that can become very powerful. Um, it comes from um I'm no psychologist, uh, you know, it's as simple as that. But you know, self-doubt can be very limiting.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And you know, when you put yourself in a position where you have no choice other than to move forward, that that in itself makes you feel very vulnerable, very uncomfortable. I mean, my early days as a salesperson, um, I'm actually quite introvert. And I would sit in the car outside of the office of my customer, and I've got to go and convince him to buy something that I know he probably wants something, what he wants it, but he's got I want him to buy it from me, not from somebody else. And I put this customer on on a pedestal that's so high, it's all it's almost terrifying. But I know I've got an appointment at 10 o'clock. I've got to get out of the car because I can't be late. So that pushed me to get out of the car. Once you're in the environment, you've got to go for it. You've got to do what you what you set out to do, otherwise, you're gonna sit there and look ridiculous and feel ridiculous and not achieve anything for anybody. And you know, you kind of got to set yourself things that you you've got to push past things that are daunting. Um and that that's that's quite common in every step that you take. Um, from the very first career that you're in, um, there's always going to be something that's a little bit scary, yeah, and a little bit out there, and I'm not used to that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But if you think it through and you plan, and I'll, you know, if I if I had the informate information in my head that I have now back in when when I was 21, 22, getting out of a car trying to sell something, I probably would have been in, I'd probably be in a much better place than I am now for a kickoff. Um, although to be fair, I love where I am now, so I wouldn't want that to happen. But I would have gone through through life without that, without that fear, um, and without the fear of failure, because that that's the other thing which is very limiting. A fear of failing is is what will hold you back. If but if you don't start, you're definitely going to fail. And it was realizing that you want there's two options you either try and you succeed, or there's three options. You try and you succeed, you try and you fail, or you don't try at all. And there's only one of those is the outcome that you want, and that's trying and succeed. The trying and failing, you'll learn from not trying at all, you're going backwards. So I think it in very simple terms, don't let fear rule progress. I think it it's it's a very powerful thing, fear. Um, so yeah, that that's one of the and and through transactions that I've done. So starting my first business, I was terrified, didn't know how to do it, didn't you know, but you you have to learn, you have to push yourself past the start line. And once you're past the start line, you've got no choice, you're not going backwards, you can only go in one direction, that's forwards. So, yeah, fear fear is a big limiting factor for for many, many people, and fear of failure um needs you kind of need to reframe that because fear of failure actually is is paralyzing.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, well, one of the things I picked up from that was it, you know, it's actually normal to feel that. And I think yeah, and I think that what the reason I'm kind of highlighting that is to just to bring that to people's attention. That you know, often where I and I'm sure you've experienced this when you you're working with a business owner, and they'll mention things like fear or fear of failure or self-doubt, and they they generally believe in that moment it's only them that's ever no one else seems to suffer from this. I'm like, you're joking, everyone suffers from this. It's you know, we just probably don't talk about it enough. Um and even in in a role, you know, in my experience, and again, I generally I think a lot of people when they are moved up, it's normal when you're in a position or a greater position where you've got more responsibility that that feeling might, you know, when you began in one position, you got familiar. That so that feeling went down less, you become familiar, you you know, you convince yourself, you've got the evidence to say I can do the role and I can do it well. Then you move into a new role, or if you start a business or and then you start to grow that business, and then you're taking on, you know, you however many employees, and all of a sudden you're thinking, Oh my god, I've never taken this amount of people on before. Can I actually do this? You know, each step of the journey, you become the feeling's the same, you just get better at I guess coping with it. Is that fair?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. I think I think it's the expansion of your comfort zone. That's what happens. Okay, you know, and it's not it's nudging, it's nudging that comfort zone out and out and out and out, and then suddenly when you're standing on the edge of your comfort zone looking back at where you started, it's miles away. Yeah, but you didn't you didn't consciously do it, you you unconsciously pushed yourself past it into a little bit of discomfort. Um, you know, I think I think that there's some there's some examples. The first time I had to do public speaking, I was never ever going to put myself forward for public speaking. Um, and I remember very vividly, I was in a meeting and I got a phone call from a really important customer, and it was John, I need your help. And I'm thinking, okay. And it was the conference or they they had a conference every year, and this conference was all of their staff and all of their suppliers, so it was a big deal, it was in a big venue. Um, and the person, my my my contact there said, Look, we've had somebody drop out from this from a speaker role. Um I need you, I need somebody to do a presentation for an hour on private label product manufacture. Will you do it?

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Now, my immediate instinct was to run a mile and say no. But I was what pushed me was there was such an important customer, and I had a really good relationship with the guy that was asking me. So I felt that saying no was actually gonna damage something that I've been building for a long time. I felt that it was it was something it we I he needed help, I could help him, so I said yes, and the minute I said yes, the terror struck. Um, and he was very reassuring, you know, he's well, this is what you do, and blah blah blah. And and it was it was great, but it was terrifying, uh and that was so far out of my comfort zone. I was gonna be standing on a stage with a big screen behind me with a presentation on it, talking to around a thousand people. I never talk, I've never done anything like it in my entire life. And I thought, right, well, I'm gonna have to do it. So and I only had a week. So the the benefit was I didn't have time to dwell on it too long. Okay, I had to prepare and be ready and be down in in Croydon in a week's time presenting to all these people. So I sort of I thought, okay, just gotta do, I've got to do my best. Um, I'll I'll do what I can to get the message across. I'll do it. And and one of the things that I did was made sure it's very authentic that it was me, and I wasn't trying to say something that was not unnatural to me in the way, the way I was I was brutally honest. Um, and I think that's always been a is a is an important element, is be honest. Um, anyway, I took a couple of my team down with me and asked them to sit in the front because I wanted somebody to talk to.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

I was really comfortable talking to it was actually Mel and Dawn, and and they've both gone on to do amazing things, but they sat in the front row. So I had somebody to talk to and to focus on. Um, somebody I was familiar with. Um, but it was no less terrifying when you walk on the stage and all the lights are there and all the people are there. You know, it's terrifying. But anyway, I did I did it. And all the way through, the way I felt was I was trembling inside. Um, I felt that my voice was quavering. You know, when your voice goes, yeah, I felt my voice wasn't wasn't wasn't projecting, wasn't powerful. Um, I wasn't sure about the content. And and it went okay. It went, you know, I was not a superstar, anything like that, but it went okay. And I got the round of applause at the end, and I got the thanks from the the conference organizer. Um, when I spoke to my team later, I I told them how I'd felt, how I felt on that stage, and they both said, you could not tell.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So that taught that was probably one of the biggest lessons. What you're feeling on the inside is not what people are seeing. Yeah. People see, you know, we have our our own self-talk and self-doubt, but that's not what people see. People see someone else, they see the what you're what you're projecting. Um, and that was a really powerful lesson for me. And that actually stopped me from worrying before I go into see a call because I knew that from that point onwards, what they see is not a semi-terrified sales rep, um, or as it was then a sales director, it was somebody who is knowledgeable about the topic, has something they want to buy, you have a personal relationship with by this time, it became much more natural. But that understanding that what other people perceive is not what you're feeling inside that became really powerful. So if you're scared, nobody can see that, nobody can see your fear, yeah. And that that in itself is becomes quite liberating.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, massively. And I think the other bit I've just taken from you, and if you if we can just lean into it for a second, is it's been a few incidences where you put yourselves in situations where like that where you feel uncomfortable, and for some people it might be thank god that's over, I'm never doing that again. But what I get the impression, the way your mind works is going, actually, I learned a lot from that, and it seems to be that every experience, you know, even the way you were asking questions before, and it's describing things, I get the vibe that you seem to take every experience, analyze it, reflect on it, and go, What have I learned from this to move forward?

SPEAKER_01

Would that be a fair kind of uh I think initially it was very subconscious? Okay. Um, I I didn't deliberately sit down and say, What have I learned? Yeah. Um, so that subconscious learning was was apparent. Um later on, yeah, I would do that analysis more consciously.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Um, and that would be okay, what went well, what would have been better, what went wrong, how can I learn from that? What would I do differently next time? And that so that that became a much more sort of structured approach to to things and to to decision making. And to the point there, you would actually do that analysis before you make the decision. Okay, if you see what I mean. So, what do I want to happen? Yeah, what happens if it does happen? What happens if it doesn't happen? And what am I going to do about it if it doesn't happen? So, you you're basically you you but you providing yourself with a safety net, yeah. Um, and and an understanding that making this decision is not going to be catastrophic. It might set me back a little bit, but it's not going to be catastrophic, it's not going to end the business, it's not going to cause anybody any harm. So it gives you the confidence to make the difficult decisions because you know that ultimately no one's going to die. I think that's the you know that the business is going to die. And that and that's really quite important. So, and that's a process from going from sub subconscious analysis through conscious analysis to planning decisions effectively to to enable the best outcome. And then you look at all the things you need to put in place to try and make sure that all the things you can control are in place to make that that decision the right decision. You're always going to have things happen that you're not expecting and things that you can't control. And you just have to roll with those, and you have to find you have to be adaptable and flexible.

SPEAKER_00

No, definitely. And I guess the bit I took up, and the reason why I kind of pushed a little bit that I think it le for maybe listeners that you know resonated when we said, you know, we talked about bravery, and then we talked about how do we find the evidence of when we are brave. I think what I've kind of taken from it, we can actively now seek evidence from our experiences, can't we? So those kind of the that pre and post-analysis that you're talking about, and where we're taking things from our unconscious to our conscious, but now consciously doing it and almost consciously fast forward to say, okay, so it just goes the way it goes this way. This is what we're gonna do. If this goes this way, this is what we want to do. But what we're doing is building that evidence pool that when we're in a situation moving forward of where potentially we go, we have that moment of going, what you want me to present for an hour? We can actually then go, oh, actually, I've thought about this and I've actually got some, I've put a bit of effort into consciously reflect and build this evidence that I can actually find easy enough to take on to go, I have done this and I can do this. I just need to find two willing people are gonna sit in the front so I can talk at them and just need to. Um and it's funny you say that, and I did giggle and I caught myself smirking. Was so when any of our friends, when we do big conferences, we always help each other out. So we always plant somebody in in a theatre because if if there's never a question, you know, when you come to the point where you go, is there any questions? And there's never that it's that oh, if once one's put the band up, it's fine, but who's the first person? So we always put somebody in who's with who will ask you. So if if no one asks a question, it'll be, oh, I've got one, and they'll go, Oh, Andy, if you don't mind asking. Um, just sparks it all after. So it's funny that I think we all those little tricks we all kind of have somebody in the audience that you know is actually a friendly friend.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, no, absolutely, and nobody wants to be first, so you have to have somebody who's willing to be to ask the first question.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I mean, and and I listen, they've got me volunteering on stage and doing all kinds of crazy things. A friend of mine had me in flashing glasses standing on one leg and counting backwards in threes from 100. And I and I went, When you said volunteer, you never really told me what you did, and she went never told you, and I said no. I was like, right, in front of about 750 people, so yeah, no, it's cool. Things we do for Apple say. Um, yeah, listen, there's there's so much in that. I think one of the things I'm I'm curious about because I think there's so many insights, and I think the other thing I'd like to do, what do you do from uh maybe a physical perspective? Because everything that you're saying feels very mentally quite challenging, and and you know, for me, and again, maybe selfishly or self-led in this question, that you know, for me to be mentally sharp, I have to find myself physically sharp. So I'm just curious where that lands with you.

SPEAKER_01

Um quite late coming to this because I I put a huge amount of focus on work for probably the until I was maybe uh late 40s. Yeah, it was work, work, work. And and I used I did go to the gym, um, but it was very much secondary. It wasn't something I did mindfully. Um, and you know, you kind of know that you need to be healthy, um, but I wasn't always, you know, and and being overweight was uncomfortable, but it happened, you know, and and that's what, especially when you're in a a very, very busy or very stressful period, you you lose sight of you know, if you're not fit physically, you're not fit mentally. It's a and there's a very, very strong correlation between the two, in my view. So I think a turning point for me um was when uh I came out of a period of extreme stress.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

And stress is one of those things that you you don't see it when you're in it. You you you know it's there and it's nagging, but you you know, your cortisol levels are off the scale, you lose visibility of of who you are as a person, which is it's very easy to do. Um, but when you come out of it and you look backwards, you think, what a nightmare. What a nightmare I was, what a nightmare it was, but actually I'm through it now, and that's the thing, you won't you do always get through it. Um but uh it was that point where I I set myself some rules, and this is probably maybe maybe 15 years ago. I set myself some some rules about um about my health, um, because I knew that I didn't want to get to retirement age and keel over and die because I've been unhealthy for my entire business career. When what's the point? Um, so I I'd started to do things. I I made a very, very strict rule. I do not work at weekends.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Um, because working at weekends had cost me too much personally.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, you know. Not paying attention to those around you uh is is is deadly. And not giving attention to people and being present for them is is very, very damaging to relationships. So that was the first rule. It doesn't matter how long I work during the week, at the weekend, no work. That's time for me and the people that I I love and and and want to be around. And then I started to add in, I call them little religions, if you like. Okay. Um, things that are immovable. Um, and unless unless there's an absolute that you can't do it for some reason. And if there if that does happen and you move it, you don't cancel it. And and that was three times a week, I would do some form of physical movement, physical exercise. And I actually chose yoga. Oh, nice. Um, and and yoga became some a place that I could go and retreat for an hour, three or four times a week. It had to be the religion was three times a week. And I found time by getting up a little bit earlier, going to an early class, then being ready for work. But I turned up at work in a far better state, far better frame of mind. So yoga for me was it was strength, it's flexibility, but it's the mindfulness, it's it's the meditation, it's the breathing, all of those things, and it takes you out of everything for an hour. And when you come back into the world, you're in a much better place, and you're better for other people, you're better for yourself and better for other people. So that that has stayed with me, and I still do that now. And I make sure that three times a week, doesn't matter what's happening, I'll I'll do a yoga, a yoga class. And the other thing I'm fortunate enough to be able to do is I've added in, I've got a dog, so he's he's sitting behind me, just over here, being very quiet, which is good of him. Um, we go for a walk every day for 45 minutes, an hour in the morning before I do anything, before I look at my phone, before I, you know, before I even think about work, that's the time when I'll just go out. Doesn't matter what the weather's doing, he doesn't care if it's raining, just wants to go out. Yeah, so go for a walk every day. Um, and and just that 45 minutes sets you up, sets you up for the day. When I get back, get myself a coffee, look at my phone. Nothing has gone wrong in those 45 minutes because nobody's up, nobody's around. And and it it's finding you, you know, the world doesn't end in 45 minutes or an hour. It just doesn't. Um, so yeah, those little tricks, I guess they're the things that really are really important to me. So, you know, scheduling our call this morning, Andy. I scheduled it so that I could have a proper dog walk before we we sat down and talked. Because if we hadn't, and I'd been frazzled, this you know, it wouldn't be flowing.

SPEAKER_00

Well, to share something, I was the same. So I I did so when we said this time, this is my optimal time because I'm the same. I'll do the school run, I'll either do get up first thing and take the dog for a walk before we get the school run, or I'll do the school run and then take the dog out. So that and I've always found that for me, and again, it's I think we're all different, aren't we? That if I've been out in the sunshine in the in the open air, I'm very fortunate we live in a countryside. So 45 minutes for me in the countryside shower, I am my mind is just really, really optimal. Yeah, so and I I you know for me, I want to be on the best form as well for you. So it's not, you know, even though it's all about you, I I want to be presenting the best version of me for you, so I can be the right for you. So that's so I really like that, and it really resonates with me that yeah, yeah, and that's it's just so important.

SPEAKER_01

And I think routine is really powerful, yeah, habits are really powerful. Um, you know, James Clare's atomic habits are brilliant, they're just really, really simple tips. I mean, and and the the the whole if you have a habit and add to the habit, it's much easier for it to stick. Um, and and and this sounds it's gonna sound really daft, Andy. But somebody's stability as you get older is really important. So lots of people of over 60, they'll fall, they'll break something because we you know you do get a little bit more brittle, you'll break something, and that has a very life-changing impact because you don't repair, you become sedentary, and you you shorten your life effectively. So balance is really, really important. So this is going to be a mental picture that you probably won't be able to get rid of. Um I've added a little habit to my to my teeth cleaning. So I you know, you clean your teeth every day. Yeah, I clean my teeth in tree pose every day, standing on one leg, yeah. Um, with with my electric toothbrush, trying not to fall over um for two minutes every day. Yeah, it and uh and little habits like that, they make all the difference to your stability, yeah. To you, you know, the the muscles in your leg don't don't uh get atrophy, you're much more stable on your feet, and therefore chances of having a fall are reduced. So it's kind of just little tiny things that you can add that don't cost you anything at all, they don't cost you time, they don't cost you energy, but you're actually you're achieving something for your future, and and it's just habits are really important, and habits that look after you mean that you're showing up better for other people, and that's really important as well.

SPEAKER_00

100%, and I think what's interesting with that is I think that's a theme that has come through lots of the guests, yeah, you know, it and you know, actually privatizing self and privatizing self-care actually that like we said, get a better version of you, which actually makes you a better turn up for others. Yeah, no, I love that. So talking about others and getting the unlocking potential in others, uh what I would be curious to kind of lean into is that kind of you know, one of the things I know through your career is that you know you've had to build teams and you know, creating development of teams and then individuals in teams is a challenge that I know a lot of people do face. So it's just curious, you know, is there anything in your experience, you know, what have you done well to unlock potential to build teams or individuals and teams that you think would be helpful for listeners?

SPEAKER_01

Um, I think the first thing when you're building a team is recruitment of that team. So often um we recruit badly, okay, and we recruit because there's an immediate need that needs filling, and you're looking for a skill set, um, and you can get a little bit desperate to to fill to fill that gap. Um, and when once you made a few mistakes, a few hiring mistakes, you start to to really reflect on what what is what am I getting wrong here? Yeah, and the the big switch for me when building a scene what a team was I stopped building it for skill and started it building it for values and will. So values and motivation became the most important thing. The skill is important, and especially if you're recruiting teams that are, you know, if you need a an electronics engineer, for example, yeah, you're gonna have to have somebody who's got proof of that qualify qualification, but that's not the be-all and end all. They've also got to fit with the other team members, and they've also got to be, they've also got to care, they've got to have the will to do something, um, and not just have a capability of you know doing a electronics engineer's job. So the switch and the emphasis came from the skill, which is almost a given, yeah, to the the the values, the personal values of that individual and they how they how they match up with the team values.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

So not necessarily my values, but the values of the people that I'm working with, the team that I'm working with. Um, and it's just so important to have that alignment of values and somebody that's that has the will to do something and aligns with your purpose as well. Um, then you don't make as many mistakes. Some people can still fake it, there's no there's no getting away from it, they can fake it, yeah. Um, especially salespeople, weirdly, because they're really good salespeople. Okay. Um, so um, but yeah, you and I think getting that alignment to the values of the group is really, really important. So you're part of what I'm doing at the moment with with my vestige peer group, yeah. I'm recruiting people that fit with the values of the people that are already in the group. You know, I'm building a group. We we have an exercise we're doing on Tuesday, actually, the first time. We're going to set out our values as a group, and that gives me the ability and the authority to go out and find new group members that will fit with that team, with that group of peers. Um, you know, because it's up to me to get it right. If I bring somebody in who is effectively a terrorist, it's going to destroy, it'll destroy the group and the way it works together. Because it it it's it's one of those things that there's got to be a an alignment for it to work. Um, so yeah, I think the first thing when you're building a team is get the selection right.

SPEAKER_00

Just just in that, if you I'm not asking you to give all your secrets away what how you do it in Vistage, so don't worry, I'm not asking deep in that. I don't mind. But I just think there's uh so I I really like that and it really aligns with me. I guess for people that are familiar with that, but then on how on earth do you how do you build team values or how do you recognize values in others? What would you say to that?

SPEAKER_01

Um, you just ask them. Okay. What's important to you personally? What what are your personal values? Um, you know, what what's important to you? And and they're not they're usually not that different, you know. People want honesty, trust, integrity. Um, you know, and knowing your own values doesn't mean everybody's gonna align with it, but as long as the values are sympathetic, yeah, you know, it it that that's fine. If if somebody's value is get to the top regardless, they're not gonna fit with the team who are nurturing and and encouraging because it it just won't fit. So the the simple thing to do is ask, yeah. Um, and and it always is, you know, don't assume, don't assume anything. Yeah, ask. Yeah, and don't be afraid to ask. Again, this the fear comes. People don't people are afraid to ask questions like what are your personal values? Because it it's uncomfortable sometimes, yeah. Um, but yeah, I just ask.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and I think it's a it's the reason I raise it is important because I I I wholeheartedly agree, by the way. I think it's I think it's really important, and I think it is that. But like you've said, for the fear of asking that question, you could recruit somebody that you're then gonna have the fear of going, oh no, now I need an uncomfortable conversation because you don't sue. So you know at some point you have to have an uncomfortable conversation. Personally, I would like you say, I would choose to do it this the the start when I don't have to deal with you know removing somebody. So I really like that. Anything else that you feel that you know we've got so we recruit with our recruitment, so we get some we understand, so we're conscious of what our values are, and that might be if you're a founder-led business. I I would argue, I don't know where you sit with it, that most of the values of the business normally, if you're a founder-led business, come from the founder, or if it if it is a business and you've just been promoted into that role or been recruited into a CEO leadership role, normally the values of the business kind of exist, and then is the values of the team and how they align, and then we're looking at values of an individual to be into a team. So now we've got somebody in the team. How do we embed people well, or how do we create a high-performing team, in your opinion?

SPEAKER_01

I think the there's a there's a couple of things. One one is um to encourage questions um and encourage curiosity, but in a very caring way. Um, so within a team, everybody has a different function. The team needs to trust that person to fulfill that function. A board of directors, for example, you know, it's there's a fairly standard structure, although I'm not sure it's always right, but you'll have a finance director, you'll have a sales director, you'll have an operations director, um, you'll have various functional heads. The first thing that has to happen is that the other functional heads have to trust that that person has been is doing their job well, and and that is providing them with the service that they need to do their job well. And that goes that goes all around the table. So that you know, the connectors in a business of the finance team, the IT team, they they connect everybody. If they're not right, the whole thing falls apart. Um, but they have to have the trust between each other, um, that the person is doing they're at least doing their best.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, and and I think that where that's where attitude and will comes into it. If the team believe that everybody is doing the best they possibly can, you build that trust and you build support within the team. So if something's not going so well for the operations director, then the other guys will get behind them and and support them and help them, yeah, rather than pointing the finger at them and saying, This is wrong, you're causing me a problem, it's your fault. And it's building that team that supports each other. Um, and in doing that, they are also willing to confront things that aren't working properly, they're willing to in a caring way, yeah, actually say out loud, that's not right, or that's not working, or that could be better. And there's ways of doing it, but if it's done in a in a an empathetic and a sort of a caring way and a supportive way, it's how can we fix this, not how can you fix this. That will build a really strong team. Um, because you've got everybody looking after everybody else. The bigger the organization, the more politics come into it, the more difficult it gets. And because you get people who aren't recruited for values and are just looking for the next step on the ladder because they want to get to the top, because that's that's you know, their ego's driving them or the money's driving them, whatever. They're not purpose-driven, they're financially driven, which is you know, that's fine, it's not a problem. Uh, but just knowing that if you go into that environment, that's what you that's what you're up against. So you're more likely to get you know stabbed in the back than than you are to be supported. Um, but know it and be aware of it and don't get involved in it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, no, I like that, and I think what was really nice from listening to that was you know, if you can get to the point of trust, and that's probably a different podcast than alone, how to build trust in a team, because that's a big conversation, isn't it? You know, and when I guess when there is trust, and that people trust everyone is doing the best of their ability with the capabilities and skills that they've got, yeah. And that you know what I liked about that is that you can you can compassionately challenge, can't you? But the but compassion comes from the best of actually, we all want the same end goal, we're all on the same journey, we're all playing a different role. Yeah, so actually by asking that question, it's less around pointing fingers saying you're not doing a good job, it's going to could we do something differently that could get us there better, more effectively, more efficiently, isn't it? And I think it's it's coming, and that's the thing. If the question's coming from a curiosity rather than a judgment part, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's a really zero, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

The the role of the leader really is is to is to see the knowledge gaps and and make sure that they're they there's the opportunity to fill them.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Um, and and that, but that that empathetic challenging is is really important. And if it it's not how do I anymore, it's not how do we. Yeah. You know, the the the the leader has to provide the vision and and the the direction and and make sure that everybody's bought into it and is aligned with it. Once you get that alignment to the to the trajectory, suddenly life becomes much easier because your decision making is is this taking us towards our vision or is it not? If it isn't, let's not do it. If it is, let's crack on and get on with it. Start and so yeah, and I think the the role of the leader this should have a non-functional role. They shouldn't be involved in operations, they shouldn't be involved in fine, they should know about them, they should be able to support, but it's not their role. Their role is alignment, encouragement, support. Um, you know, if you look at a hierarchy in a business, how often do you see the CEO at the top, then the board of directors, then it's the other way around. It should be an upside-down pyramid where you've got your CEO at the bottom supporting a board who are supporting the leadership team, who are supporting everybody else in the business. And if you get it, if you genuinely get it to that level and everybody's aligned about where you're going, suddenly it becomes a great place to work.

SPEAKER_00

Do you know what made me smile then? So Ian Penrose, he was one of the guests on the podcast. He's the he's now the chairman of Preston North End and was in some he was the CEO of some really big companies. He said exactly the same.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly the same. He said that's that you know, it should be the wrong the other way around. I love that. I think it's a really nice vocal.

SPEAKER_01

I've never invented anything. No, you know, there are there are there are inventors out there, and I take my hat off to people that invent stuff, but I will I will proudly steal anything that I that I think is we modeling.

SPEAKER_00

We don't steal, we model it, don't we? You know, we meet it. Um but I think no, but I and I don't and I wasn't accusing you of stealing it. I was just what I like resonating was uh that's when he was telling me about it, he he used a very similar thing, and I um it made me smile thinking, oh, isn't that interesting that yeah, you know, but I've just picked up the values from you, and you know, you generally do care, you know. From our first conversation to this, there's this genuine I want to support people and get people better, and I generally want to get from one place to another, right? And and I get that, I've always had that, and I got that same vibe from him when I was he was talking about how he would build a culture in a team, and it just made me smile that both of you use that same kind of analogy of going it's the wrong way around, and I thought, oh, isn't that interesting? So I thought I'd bring attention to it because I think certainly something in that, and I definitely think you know, both of you are performed at really, really high level, and both of you said the same thing. I was like, Okay, you know, this is something. If you're a listener, let's take note of this, yeah. Let's let's really take note. There may be something there may be some things in this, let's expand on this a bit more. I'm I'm really conscious of time. So if it's all right with you, if we could wrap it up, and if there's an opportunity in the future to do a part two, because I could talk to you all day, I knew it would. Um so just moving into kind of the advice bit, what would be okay. So, what three practical things do you think people could try today? So, in the conversation we've had, you know, if people listening now, there's been so many insights in this. What three practical things do you think people could try today?

SPEAKER_01

I think the the the most important thing is is get yourself talk right. Okay. I think the the minute you have faith in yourself and your own ability and and your willingness to push your comfort zone, and and not I'm not saying break through it massively, but if if you feel like doing that, go for it. Um get your self-talk right. Stop. There's lessons that we all learn. Limiting self-talk is very, very powerful. And it's been it's been put with us um from a very early age to try and limit our expectations so that we don't feel like we've failed. And and it's done for the right reason, the best reasons. But you need to get over that. You sort of almost need to get over yourself and and start to say, okay, I can do this.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

You know, I I want to do this, I want, and and I want to get to and understand. Where you want to be as well, and that's not necessarily material things. Material things become less important as you as you realize that they don't actually bring any happiness at all. Um, and and you can say that if some someone somebody said, Well, if you haven't got anything, then material things are really important. And I'm not suggesting that they aren't important to people because they are the motivators, but they're not the be all and end all. You you can have nothing, but if you've got a strong relationship with other human beings, you've got everything. So self self-talk, learn to use it to your to your advantage and make it positive. Don't make it negative, make it positive.

SPEAKER_00

Um, so that's the first thing, and the fear thing. And just on that, for people listening, um, Sarah Davies is a psychotherapist, she talks around that in the podcast of notice, don't interpret. She talks a lot about a lot around self-talk on our podcast. So if you want to delve into that, that's a really nice one to delve into.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. Um, fear of failure is very powerful. Just recognize it it's powerful, and and just go through a process of of understanding what failure might look like and and you know how how big that's going to be, and then make your decisions based on on what's likely to be the outcome, but don't be afraid, but do the analysis. Um and and that takes time, takes you have to think about it. Rash decisions generally aren't the best. So take your time and think through. Um, and emotional decisions are very rarely the best. So try to take emotion out of it. Um, so that that's self. Um, I think the other thing I would say is learning. There's for this formal learning. Um find your best way to to to take on information. Uh, for some people it's reading, for me, it's uh listening and podcasts. Um, but find your way of learning and then learn because you you'll there's a whole world of of excitement out of there in knowledge. Um, you know, there's a few a few books that you for business people and and for and for individuals that I think are really important. Um, you know, if you're running a business, is a there's a book called Good to Great. Um, it's by Jim Collins. One of the reasons I like it so much is it's it's evidence-based, it's not somebody's opinion. There's lots of books out of there with lots of people's opinion. This is evidence-based, and it's an analysis of what makes a good business into a great business and what the differentiators are. And there's some really simple concepts in there that if you follow them, they're actually a very, very good guide. Um, I think the other book that does that that's had had a very, very large impact on me is um is is Steve Peters. He he had a book called The Chip Paradox, he has a book called The Chip Paradox. Um that was very powerful for me. I I sat in a room for I went for a lunch. Um one of these posh lunches that the big accountancy firms uh put on when they're launching a new office. We had afternoon tea. There's about 150 people in the room, and we had you know the cake stand in the middle, the sandwiches and the and the and the cakes on the top. And Steve Peters did a one-hour talk about the chimp paradox and the power of the chimp. And and the lasting impression for me, as I walked out of the room, I was blown away by it for one, but the secondly, nobody ate the cake. All of the cakes were still on the table because he told us why we eat cake and what the impact is, and um it just enabled everybody in that one hour to resist these amazing cakes. I don't know who ate them in the end, probably not somebody that went to the tour, but that taught me how to understand people better, um, and under helped me understand why people behave the way they do, and and gave me the empathy to allow them to be themselves and and not want them to be a mirror of me. So, you know, people are who they are. You either accept them as as who they are or you or don't don't be with them. Um so you know that that was that's a great book for understanding other people, and that gives you a real power to control how you respond to sometimes to negativity.

SPEAKER_00

It's really powerful. No, I love them, and I'll stick both of those books in the show notes as well. That's cool.

SPEAKER_01

And if you want a really, really geeky one, which has got a punch in the face to start with, there's one called Black Box Thinking by Matthew Saeed.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, you know, that that's a great book, and that's that's really about cognitive dissidence. That's about, you know, we we believe what we believe because it's what we're taught, and it doesn't necessarily stack up.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, so giving giving yourself the opportunity to see things from a different perspective. So, yeah, that that formal learning is really important. And if you can, the final one, if you can, find an old person to be your mentor, find somebody that's been around the block, that's had life experience, that wants to give back because as you get older, you do want to give back. Find somebody that's that's that's willing to do that because they're just full of really valuable insights that you won't get until you're that old person, unless you ask. So mentors or what or whatever, they're they're the three things I would suggest will make a big difference to you. Awesome. And then the fourth, you can do whatever he wants, about you. Stay fit and healthy, or get fit and healthy because that's really important. If your body's good and your mind's good, you can conquer the world.

SPEAKER_00

I like that. I like that. So, for people listening, where can they find out about you and what you're doing with your new vista group?

SPEAKER_01

Um, the easiest place to find me is on LinkedIn. Um I do I don't post a lot, I repost a lot, but you can find me there, and if I can help you, it's a good way. I do put my email and phone number uh on there. I do have a website, it's a bit tongue-in-cheek. It's um there is a website available though, but I think LinkedIn is is by far the easiest way to to find me. Um so yeah, by all means, and I'll I'll always respond. If somebody wants to to chat, doesn't matter what it's about, always happy to chat. Um, so just reach out with a LinkedIn message. If you're not connected to me, connect. Um, just reference the the podcast, um, and I'll I'm happy to connect and uh and chat with anybody.

SPEAKER_00

Awesome. We'll put them in the show notes. So, what uh what you're working on next? Do you want to tell people about your recruitment for your vestige?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, um, really exciting phase. Um Tuesday of next week is the official launch of the group. So I needed eight people uh around the table to to launch, um, because eight is a minimum, really, where you get the diversity of thinking. Um, so I've got nine who have have joined the group. We launch on Tuesday, everybody gets to know each other, we have a bit of fun, we set out the the the sort of agenda for the next 12 months with our speakers. Um, and I just find it incredibly rewarding um to be working with some, you know, there's some successful CEOs here that you know the commonality is they all recognize they they need support, they need they're isolated. I mean, chief execs get terrible isolation because you know they're they're the person at the top that's supposed to have all the answers. Frequently they don't, and it's hard. So getting over that isolation by bringing people together and sharing an experience. I've got, you know, there's going to be nine people around the room with nine sets of experience of running successful businesses. Yeah, there's no better place to be. Um, you know, and I'm really excited about that. I want to get it up to 12 by September. So I'm looking for three more members. Um, they've all got to fit with the values of the group that we've got. Uh, but yeah, that that's what I'm up to next. But yeah, very excited about next week's launch.

SPEAKER_00

And is all information found on your LinkedIn page? Yeah, you'll find it on there. Yeah, perfect.

SPEAKER_01

The other excitement for me is is Haptivate. So you mentioned Nikki before. Um, that's just a great thing to be involved in. The purpose of that company, you know, the Nikki's drive uh is just fabulous to be involved in. Um, and I love working with Nikki. I'm looking forward to a one-to-one with her tomorrow afternoon. So where we get to spend a bit of quality time together. Uh so you know, that that's really that's really what it's about at the moment. And um, I'm loving it. Absolutely. I'm having a great time.

SPEAKER_00

Brilliant. And and I can tell, I can generally the smile on your face. No, it's but it's lovely, isn't it? Like, listen, I I get energized from watching other people be successful. That is a kind of one of my things. So, you know, just listening to you, your you know, your excitement, your smile, the energy that you bring when you're talking about these projects is it you know, it's lovely. So yeah, it's fantastic to see. One final challenge we can set our listeners. What would it be? Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Um, the one challenge I would say read a book that is not not a novel, read a book that's going to help you to understand yourself and where you want to be. It uh doesn't matter what that book is. Um, if I was to recommend, you know, Steve Peters' book is a great The Chin Paradox. That that's a toolbox for you to understand other people. Um, it'll help you with relationships, it'll help you with difficult conversations. It's really, really powerful. So if you do one thing, get get that book and read it, or listen to it on audiobook, or watch a video about it. Um, because understanding other people gives you empathy. Once you have empathy, it gives you power. Um, and and that's you know, that's the one thing I would say if the if the if it's the only thing you do, and go for a walk, put your phone down, go for a walk. Lovely, John. There you go. Go for a walk listening to Steve Peters on the podcast.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, awesome. John, it's been a it's been amazing. Thank you ever so much. Really appreciate it to our listeners. Thanks all for listening again. Um, look forward to you on the next episode. Hope you've really enjoyed John. Any feedback, please feel free to send it over to us and make sure you're always following and subscribe to get our latest editions. So for now, John, it's been a privilege. Thanks ever so much for joining us.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you, Andy. It's been a it's been fun. Thank you. Cheers now.