Identity & Human Potential with Susie Kindred

Why self-awareness, willingness and discomfort matter when it comes to thriving under pressure.

In this episode of Unlocking Human Potential, I sit down with Susie Kindred for a deeply human conversation about pressure, wellbeing, resilience, and what it truly means to thrive in modern life.

So many ambitious people appear successful on the outside while quietly feeling overwhelmed, disconnected, emotionally exhausted, or stuck. This conversation explores why.

Together, we unpack:

• The relationship between discomfort and performance
• Emotional intelligence, self-awareness, and training presence under pressure
• Why so many high performers operate from fear and self-protection instead of trust
• The importance of play, compassion, and staying connected to what matters
• How leaders can better understand themselves and others

This isn’t just a conversation about achievement or potential.

It’s a conversation about being human.

Susie shares honest and practical reflections on identity, sustainable high performance, and what we need to be willing to experience in order to grow.

If you’re a leader, founder, creative, athlete, or someone navigating pressure, growth, or change, this episode will challenge your thinking and help you reflect on how you show up in the world.

About Susie:

Today’s guest is someone who sits right at the intersection of high performance… and being fully human.

Susie Kindred is a clinical psychologist, performance and mindset coach, and someone who has spent over 15 years working with leaders, athletes, creatives, and high achievers operating under real pressure. 

But what makes Susie different is this, she doesn’t just focus on performance in isolation. Her work is about sustainable high performance… helping people thrive without burning out, think clearly under pressure, and stay connected to what actually matters. 

She’s worked across clinical psychology and high-performance environments, blending science with real-world application to help people train their minds like they train for everything else. 

In this conversation, we go deep into the inner game, how you manage pressure, navigate self-doubt, and build a version of success that actually feels good to live.

If you’ve ever achieved a lot… but still felt like something was missing this one’s going to land.”

 https://kindredthriving.com/resources/ 

https://kindredthriving.com/shift-waitlist/ 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Welcome to Unlocking Human Potential with me, Andy Hosgood, a show dedicated to exploring what it really takes psychologically, behaviourally and practically to help humans thrive through conversations with leaders, founders, coaches, behavioural experts, and people shaping how humans perform and grow. Is this for you? But if you're a leader, a founder, a business owner, or an ambitious professional who wants to do more than just perform, they want to grow, inspire, and bring the best out in themselves and their people, then keep listening. Because the mission is simple to explore how individuals and teams unlock potential in themselves, in others, and the organizations they shape. Every episode is a deep but relaxed conversation built around three core questions. How do you optimize yourself? How do you unlock potential in others? And the best advice for you, the listener. Now, over to the episode. I really hope you find it helpful and insightful. Just before we introduce our next guest, please make sure you press the follow button to keep updated with the latest episodes. Additionally, special thanks to 246 photography and Pixel May Brand for making this podcast a reality. However, the episode. Brilliant. Well, thank you very much for joining me from Sydney. Sydney, Australia. Sydney, Australia. Lovely, lovely. So today's guest is somebody who sits right at the intersection of high performance and being truly and fully human. Susie Kindred is a clinical psychologist, performance and mindset coach, and someone who has spent over 15 years working with leaders, athletes, creatives, high achievers operating under real pressure. But what makes Susie different is this. She doesn't just focus on performance and isolation, her work is about sustainable high performance, helping people thrive without burnout, I think clearly under pressure and staying connected to what actually matters. She's worked across clinical psychology and high performance environments, blending design with real-world application to help people train their minds like they train for everything else. In this conversation, we're going to go deep into the inner game, how you manage pressure, navigate your self-doubt, and build a version of success that actually feels good to live. So if you've ever achieved a lot but still feels something is missing, then a lot of this is going to land. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

Thank you. Thank you for that. That was lovely.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

Oh, brilliant. So what I mean, we met in Paul Russell's performance club, performance psychology club. And I have to say, I think we said before we went live on this that you know he was saying to me, Oh, you've got to, you've got you've you've got to get this young lady on. So really, really excited, and no doubt. And when I was saying people asking me who had on, and I shared your profile, there was a lot of people. So very, very excited to explore some of these topics. Um certainly from the first time we chatted, um, I've become a bit of a Raven fan myself if I'm honest. So I'll I'll put that out there before we before we start to the audience that there might be a bit of that. So one of the things that the podcast seems to sit as a trail is around curiosity. So one of the things I'm curious about is what is it that you're curious around right now?

SPEAKER_01 3:54

Yeah, and I loved when you said that, and I've listened to some of your intros where you where you share that that curiosity is such a peak because I I have three C's and three P's that underpin a lot of my work. And the three C's are courage, compassion, and curiosity. So I was like, oh great, we're gonna get along just fine. Um so so yeah, there are two two big things that I'm really curious about. And no surprise, the first one is compassion. So that has been a really big one since starting my business seven years ago, and I'm only ever more interested in it being like the great unlock for um high performance fields, high pressure, high stakes, high visibility across those kind of areas. It just pops up everywhere for me, whether it's um then the nerd, you'll find out. There's a real nerd inside me. And I think like I just see it in research across flow science, in self-determination theory, my clinical background, it comes through a lot in compassion-focused therapy. And oh my gosh, it just constantly weaves together. There's a fundamental role of the ability to turn inward, the ability to practice self-acceptance and the ability to go into that place of soothing and contentment and safety within ourselves. That like my my idea is it it takes courage to get to the edge. And the way you get that courage is from compassion. And um, that has been the thing that I'm super, I'm just constantly curious about. It's my like excitement piece. So there's one I could spend a lot of time reading, um, and I'm very excited about it. But I will share, there's there was something else that came to mind when you said, What else are you curious about? And this is more on a personal level as well. So in the background to me doing my work, I have three young kids. I've got a seven-year-old, four-year-old, and two-year-old. And I have a lot of things, as you might be able to tell, that I'm excited about and a lot of things that I want to do and work with people and that kind of thing. But it's also offset by my values and my priority right now with my kids. And at times it means there's like an itch that I can't scratch sometimes with um yeah, with what more I'm excited to do. And so I think the thing I'm still curious about is how to balance that idea of drive when it's sometimes it's like the urge to do it all now, but you know, it's not all gonna happen now. And that's okay. And sometimes when I'm at my most pressured, it's because I want to do it all now out of maybe a fear that maybe it won't happen, maybe it'll be too late. Maybe everyone else is doing heaps more stuff faster than me. Um, but I actually know that I don't operate out of at my best out of that place of it being more fretful or fear-focused. And I operate out of my best when I know that I'm clear on what I'm doing, that I love what I'm doing, and that I'm playing the long game and I'm exercising more trust. And I think that comes back into that idea of like, I'm playing to win, I'm not playing not to lose type of thing. I don't have to operate out of a place of um threat, but out of curiosity. And what else could happen? Like, I'm curious about what's possible. That's probably the third thing I'm curious about. I'm curious about what's possible. That's a long-winded answer. But when you asked that, I was like, you know, I am curious. I'm curious about the whole, how to hold both of those. Um, and I'm I'm just doing the path with a lot of other people in how to hold hold two things at once.

SPEAKER_00 7:35

And I'll be honest, I think it will resonate with a lot of people, won't it? I think, because I think when you've got, like you said, that that balance of drive and ambition. And it's interesting when you say that, so just for transparency, what was going on for me is I always call the balance of dad guilt. So it's it's the I'm quite, I would call describe myself as quite an ambitious and driven individual. But it's the element of going at the sacrifice of my presence at home. So when you were saying that, there was definitely an internal resonation of going, yeah, I get that. I get that kind of internal battle, and I get that kind of, and I'm sure, and it's something that seems does come across in a lot of conversations that we have with ambitious professionals, if that is in business or in sport, that you know, there does come that kind of should we say work-life balance piece, which I think a lot of Yeah, I don't laugh at the word balance.

SPEAKER_01 8:36

I'm definitely not balanced in my life, but I know what you mean.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

Like we and again, it is it balance, you know, does balance exist? And that there seems to be a a really strong, you know, thing that maybe it doesn't. It's just finding what feels right in the moment. And does that is the scale, does it move up and down depending on where we are and what we need to do? No, I like that.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

And something I I something I often have in my mind is that idea that like when you do have that sense of ambition or high standards, like our brain will really focus on what more there is to do. Like, that's why we'll often go over those open loops, or we'll come back home. And and again, because it taps into a bit of mastery, it taps into a bit of that internal drive, like it's already ready to go. It's just very easy to keep following that idea of what more there is to do. Um, and I do think there's a bit of a practice in also remembering A, how far we've come. Um, but as well, like you said, part of what is needed when we have a strong drive to strive, which is often very future-oriented and future focused just by nature. We really do need some practices that help us, as you mentioned, like be tap into the part of myself that feels present and feels ready to just do it now. And that's not only important in terms of like that helps me be the dad I want to be, or that helps me, you know, be at the gym better and feel like I'm focused there rather than have multiple things going on at once. Like I all of us feel better when we're more present. But the other side of that is that that's that's a performance skill in and of itself. Like, how do we play the moment now? Like that's that's a trainable skill that's helpful not just for our fulfillment and contentment and balancing out the striving stuff. It's it's a great performance skill to go. How do I keep just playing the moment in front of me? Not the one that's next month, not the one that I just played last last week that I'm still feeling bad about. It's just playing the one in front of me. So that's it kind of causes both.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

Is it and I know we haven't even got into this, but I'm just wondering, is there a is there a moment here where we can, you know, because it'd be people listening to that going, yeah, that's me. But I can't get present. Is there a is there a hint or tip at this moment early on that we think if you if you are, if you if you're like listening to us having this conversation and going, gosh, that's me, but I really struggle to get in the moment. Is there something that we could advise people now?

SPEAKER_01 11:00

Yeah, there are two ways, where's ways that my mind just went. So one is I think a little bit part of our struggle to get present is just because of we're in doing, doing, doing mode 24-7 or close to. And so my inability to get present is partly because I I don't have like micro recovery in in across my day. Um, so as a little first point of call, one thing that I would suggest, and I can even take us through, but I often just start with teaching a very basic breathing skill. And I ask people to find a moment where they're just like going to the bathroom or filling up their cup of tea or like walking out on the pitch, what's something that you already do quite regularly, and that's normally when you're on autopilot and still in your doing mode, where we can bring up your breathing skill. You're not just breathing when you're stressed or in a reaction to something or to calm yourself down, you're instilling the mechanics of calm in more regular moments of your day. And I see that as a bit of a micro recovery moment across your day.

SPEAKER_02 12:00

Nice.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

So part of me would just start there of like, maybe we don't even have to talk about the big word of feeling present. Maybe we can just talk about when can you breathe and just breathe. Um, so that's one thing that I would think of. And this is kind of related, but the other thing that I often work work with people at in this kind of area, um, and this is actually often where I do start work with people in how to build more awareness in the moment. Um, you know, our our body is often in the present, but our mind is not. Our mind is a thing going in the future or the past. Um, is the idea of train in the mundane so you can show up in the spectacular is what I talk about. So people often talk about how they really want to be present and they're thinking about their like super high pressure moments, like, how do I be present when I'm, you know, in the boardroom and I'm trying to have executive presence? Um, or how do I be present um when I've just like lost my mind a little bit and they're kind of looking for presence in really critical moments, but your brain is not, it doesn't know what you're trying to do there. You're only trying to do it in the high pressure moments. You've got to train it in the mundane. Um, and so again, like I'll talk, I'll talk you through a little bit of an example about what I do with people. This is again just the same way I ask people to find something boring that they're doing. I actually introduced the idea of doing a task like having a shower or maybe unpacking the dishwasher, maybe it's filling up the dog food, whatever it is. Find again, one thing that you kind of do every day. And all we're trying to do is pay attention differently to that task. So that's just brought the whole idea of wanting to be really present down to something pretty particular. And when you're doing that task, a really good thing to help you train that muscle of attention is to go through your senses. How do I, what do I smell? What am I hearing? What do I feel? So if you're brushing your teeth, you might be like, oh yeah, my tongue's moving out of the way, or oh, I feel it on my gums, but not on my teeth. You know, there's something that I might notice just because I'm paying attention differently. And you might only pay attention differently for 20 seconds, and then your mind's gone off to something else. But then you can go, okay, well, brushing my teeth, I'm I'm training it. Come back to what's the next thing I notice. Where's my hand being placed? Oh, how funny that my hand happened to bring my toothbrush right into my mouth without me even planning that. It just my body knew what to do. How interesting. So, the other way I also talk about that is the idea of um doing something as though it's the very first time you've ever done it. What would you notice? Um, and so this is that idea again of just like training ourselves to pay attention differently in the mundane. Yeah, you've got much more of a skill, much more of a foundation to then be able to kind of drop that anchor, go into the moment and be really quite fierce and focused because you've shown your brain what that feels like to keep keep your attention on that one thing.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

No, I really love that. Really, really love that. And I think it's what a great way to start. Um I've uh and it's uh you know, I'll share with the audience, and you know, it's interesting when you do it. I was challenged to do it when I was being coached once, and and it was just on a dog walk, you went, right, I just wanted to spend with again something to do all the time. And I just kind of and I remember him saying to me, right, I want you to spend now a period of time during that where you just have to just focus on like what like you say, what you can smell, what you can hear, what you can feel, what it what's the temperature of the room, all those things. And it took me to a whole different level, and it was a really lovely experience. And I I I think I walked into about three lampposts because I was I was so trying to get into, you know, it's one of those things, but yeah, it it's a lot of things. Yeah, yeah, but it's early, yeah, maybe not do that, but you know, brushing your teeth is probably a better example. But I I think I'd say that because there'd be people out there going, Oh, how would that be helpful? Um I would generally challenge most people, give it a go. And actually, I think you'd be more surprised than you'd you know you realize. And I love that kind of do something like as if it's the first time, you know, because I think that's a really nice way to view it, isn't it? Because it, you know, that's that we do things, it's like driving a car, you know. You know, you forget, don't you?

SPEAKER_01 16:17

We can go and autopilot, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

Yeah, don't you? That that you know, when you well no, it's really good. Thank you for a great start. So the idea of this podcast for new listeners just to give you the framework. So, you know, there's kind of three themes. I think it's you know, how do we unlock the potential in ourselves, which I think you know, we always start with, and then how do we then take that skill and potentially unlock potential in others? And then I think if people have given up, you know, an hour or 50 minutes to listen to us, then I think it's important to help them kind of say what do we do with this great information, this great conversation, and what what can we do? So we'll always try and finish up with the last kind of 10 minutes, just kind of tying it all together and putting some action to then people. Because I think, like you've said, you know, there's no good saying I've got this really, really good idea about you know, working on the moment in brushing my teeth I heard on a podcast and not actually doing it. So I think it's you know, how how do we then start challenging people to actually take some action? Yeah. So, you know, when I I I spend a lot of time looking through your website, and I think there's that there's lots of really cool things. So hopefully we can, you know, some of the stuff can come out in in this conversation. And what we will also share for the audience is there's loads of resources on your website, which I'll I'll post into the into the links at the end as well. So anyone that really does enjoy some of this and wants to refer back, there's there's there's quite a lot of resources, and you've got a book that you can be downloaded as well, can't you, to kind of to share some stuff. So we'll get that out there just in case we get into this and I forget at the end. So when we talk around unlocking potential in ourselves, where does that land with you?

SPEAKER_01 17:55

Yeah, so um it's a question, it's a big one, obviously. How do we unlock potential? I think that's what we're all kind of on about um for the people who get to be on the show with you. But the one of the first places I go with that is a little bit of like, how do we get out of our own way?

unknown 18:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

And one of, I think, one of the main things that we do when we get in our way is when we get stuck on not wanting certain parts of the emotional experience that come along with unlocking potential. So, you know, in general, when we think about potential or pursuit or achievement, we kind of think confidence or achievement or success is something to move toward. And that to do that, I have to move away from things like anxiety or doubt. And so the paradox is we kind of get in our own way when we're not willing to experience some of this stuff in order to do some of that stuff. And so unlocking potential, I suppose, kind of starts with a little bit of a look at well, what are you willing to experience?

SPEAKER_02 19:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

Um, so one of the things I often think about is um, and and I get people to ask this question of themselves, which is to kind of try and think of something that you've done in your life that you're proud of or that mattered or that was important to you. And to even just take a little moment to cast back what would kind of fit that category is often very broad. What's okay, what's something that you're proud of? What's something that mattered to you? And then to think, okay, well, in the pursuit of that, if you think about what thoughts or what emotions came up while you did that thing, the likelihood is they weren't that pleasant all of the time. You didn't want that thing all of the time. You might have been training for a marathon, and a lot of the time you have to do stuff you don't want to do in order to do the thing you want to do. Um, so there's this idea that like the short-term result of doing something that matters to you, often it will involve some kind of negative emotion or discomfort. And I think that's why like it's it's really important, and I know these messages are out there more and more, which is so good, that it's okay to feel anxious and to feel nervous and to feel doubt. Like even some of the people who have had their very best experiences, for example, in sport, are doing those things while anxiety and nerves and doubt are along for the ride. And it's this idea that, well, if you if you want to be successful in life, you're gonna have some emotions that suck. So we want to build our capacity for that, our ability to either regulate them or just to be with them or to recognize that, you know what, like welcome to the club. If I have high standards or high achievement, often what we see is those people will also kind of have higher levels of anxiety and frustration. Um, so we want to expand our capacity to have, yes, a quiet mind or a calm body so that we can tolerate those higher levels of frustration or higher levels of discomfort. Is that do you have does that land okay?

SPEAKER_00 21:02

Lamb really well for me. And I guess one of the things I would just share with that, it's interesting because we've had some of the CEOs on who, you know, on paper when you're reading some of the CVs and what they've achieved, you go, Oh, they've just got it all nailed, haven't they? And then you actually have really honest conversations to go, oh my god, I was awful at this and was awful at that. I was dead, I was you know, that made me really nervous. And it's only when you look, you know, I think we we see what we see, don't we? So we see people in high performance and go, oh, they've got all their stuff together. And actually, when you unpick that, you know, even the best, the most high performance that looks well, that you know, is it something that they're just well rehearsed in that emotion? So, you know, if you're if it if you're in a high anxiety state, it's you know, you've one, you've become familiar with it, so therefore it it it creates it's less dictates your performance. So you become familiar with that anxiety. You know, From a combat sport background, and one of the things is you know, you watch people that go into like especially from an MA MMA background, when you look at kind of people that have gone into a like they've shut the cage, you can almost tell who's familiar with that environment, who isn't familiar with that environment, just in the body language and the way they think. And what was interesting, we spoke to Gavin Pratt from the UFC, and one of the things that they prepare fighters for is dealing with those moments of where they might even as the fighters walking into the cage in practice, they put the wrong walkout song on.

SPEAKER_01 22:38

Yeah, let's just throw some scanners in the work.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

So again, just you know, so they're getting familiar again. And I guess with that, is that that you know, it for people that are saying, Yeah, I you know, I might be you know, not pushing forward or that fear or that anxiety, that self-doubt is preventing me from moving forward, rather being in sport or in business or in leadership or any position. What would your kind of advice be? And I know it's a real big uh topic, so I'm not you know, there's if there's some generalized thing about how to get that.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

Yeah, I will I will touch on one and I'll have a little like I have a metaphor that I really like to use. But I just want to say, um, even just that idea of like changing the track, like we're we're doing things that kind of throw them off. Um, what I what I like that it's highlighting there is with as well, we don't want our success, for example, or we don't even want my ability to feel um happy with how I've done things to be so predicated on things going a certain way. And so it's kind of training your flexibility to that, oh gosh, that thing can throw me off and I can feel anxious. And now I don't have the storyline in my mind that goes, oh gosh, I felt anxious. Now I'm gonna have a really terrible time. It's like, cool, that threw me off. I can ride that wave. Um, that doesn't dictate how I execute my performance behaviors. You know, it's like I'm so much more flexible to do what's in front of me rather than tightly and rigidly holding to a certain way that things have to go. Um, and I think that's true outside of sport too. Um, that we don't want our sense of success or, hey, I'm happy to do this thing as long as no one else is disappointed in me, or I'm happy to do this thing as long as I never make a mistake. We don't want it to be on on only conditions, like conditional on things only looking a certain way, I suppose, or only going a certain way, that we trust that we're flexible enough to do what's next when when it when new things come up. Sorry, I ran for that. Um so when you were saying, also, what's one thing that we that they can do with that? I I think it's really good to actually just take a moment and ask ourselves, well, if this is the thing that I want to do, like I I want that promotion, or I want to put myself forward for this, or I want to try for this new thing, or it's succeed in something quite bold. Um, I think you have to get really extremely clear on what you're willing to experience. You know, I'm I'm willing to experience this uncertainty about how it will go in service of doing something new. I might have to be willing to experience heartbreak or vulnerability in service of connection. I'm willing to experience failure and falling flat on my face in service of trying my best and seeing what could happen. Um, and it's this whole idea that you can't um you can't pursue those things without some risks. You can't do those really good things without some cost. And so we've kind of got to go, oh, yeah, that's right. I was willing to experience me feeling like a bit of a fraud and feeling like a bit of a bit of a beginner in order to go for this new role. Yeah, I'm willing to experience that discomfort. Like that's that's no surprise to me. Come along for the ride. So um I think it's good to get be aware of. Um, I'll do it in four steps. First step is what's important to me. The second step is while I'm pursuing that thing, what will come up for me? What's the yakky stuff? What is the like thoughts and feelings? What will be the things I don't like? What will be the things that I tell myself about why I can't do that? What will come up while I'm doing that thing? And when that comes up, what will I what will I want to do to seek relief? Like if it's that I'm a leader and I'm trying to actually delegate more and trust my team more, but then I go, well, will they really be able to do it? And now this is going to cause more work for me. And so my urge is the thing I try and do is I just overstep the mark, I do it all again, and I do more work for them. So we kind of do that thing of, okay, well, when I'm starting to doubt myself, what mo what moves might I make? Maybe I disappear off the field for five minutes. Um maybe I start to say no to things because I don't think I'll be able to do it. And then the fourth step is okay, so given that this is what I'm going to experience, now what's important to me. And then that comes back to the end, okay. What am I willing to do? What am I willing to do? So um that's that's a little approach that I take.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

And I think it's a really lovely approach, and I think one that most people can, you know, and again it comes back to seeing it through the lens of compassion as well, doesn't it? Because it's it's recognizing I think one things are gonna come up for you, and actually then how do you view yourself in that moment? And if like you've said, if you if you've already planned that ahead of yourself and you've taken the time to and I would certainly start challenge most people, if you've not done an exercise like that, it's a lovely, it is a really lovely exercise to go through, isn't it? Because actually when you get to that moment, because you've already experienced and I can only talk about me in this, when I've gone through that and I've gone, okay, so what is what could happen, what could I feel like, what kind of things, and I'm cut how comfortable and where do I sit with that? And then when it does come up, I've almost got a level of familiarity. I went, oh, I I knew this was going to happen, but I've already kind of started. You've coped ahead with it. Yeah, almost started to plan my solution for this. So I've got that, you know. I was talking, I've got, you know, the the many parts that create our brains and the many voices that come up. It's almost like, and this is my analogy, and have I, you know, because I've always had that conversation with myself, it's almost like I can almost pull back on that conversation and go, well, what did you come up with? Well, I came up with this as a solution, right? Cool, I'll go with that. Yeah, that was that worked well for me in that moment. Let's see if it works well for me in this moment. But I think again, it's coming back to that having practiced that that I felt I feel. So I really like that because it resonates and it made me smile because I thought I've done that exercise quite several times when someone, you know, shared that with me before. So yeah, I love that. That's really nice.

SPEAKER_01 28:47

Yeah. Yeah. And it's the idea, like I think when we sometimes when we do think about visualization, we think about um, particularly again, this might happen more in sport, but we we learn more about mental rehearsal and doing like a whole body, try and really put yourself in every aspect of the thing that you're about to do and rehearse it out. Um, but the thing that people miss sometimes is they think that that idea of rehearsal is only for it going well and me like being at my finest. Like feel that in my body, what it looks like to really be at my finest. Like, and that's really good. But the thing that they miss is that idea it's actually really good to go into the moment and and imagine I do I talk about a lot, like falling fighting your face, and then what next? Like, don't just stop at the worry of oh, I hate the idea of that bad thing happening. Keep keep following that through to and then what would I do? What would I remember? What would what would I focus on next? What would me playing playing at my very best in the next moment look like? Um, and and again, yeah, following that through as you said. So it's good to do the the stuff that's hard to.

SPEAKER_00 29:47

Yeah, and also I think again, I look back to what you were saying before about, you know, where people maybe, I don't know, the word self-doubt kind of springs to mind when I'm thinking of things like this. But like you've said there, you know, almost in those moments looking back and going, okay, so what have you, you know, you have done things well in the past. And you know, and actually, you know, talking on stage is one that people always talk to me about going, well, I was really, really bad. Yeah, I was really nervous all the way up, and then I got on stage and I was brilliant. And and so now I have to kind of almost use that, but going, but every time I get on stage, I still feel nervous going up, but now even those nerves because I go, well, I was nervous before and did all right. So there's a there's a potential that I'm nervous now and I could do all right again.

SPEAKER_01 30:36

Yeah, yeah, we've got more evidence that as long as we pay attention to the evidence. Yeah, like the key thing is you have to encode or turn toward and give your attention to that evidence, or you won't benefit from it.

SPEAKER_00 30:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, it's nice, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:50

I like that.

SPEAKER_00 30:51

Yeah, that's really good. Cool.

SPEAKER_01 30:53

So again, go on. Oh, I would if you'd like me to continue, because I had one other thing.

SPEAKER_00 30:59

This is about you, this is great. I love this.

SPEAKER_01 31:01

All right, all right, all right. Because I think and I think it's probably sometimes the things that I talk about are it's just because of what's coming up a lot in my work lately. And the thing that is coming up a lot in my work lately is um, how do we be unbothered but not indifferent? I think that has been a skill and a and an approach that is resonating with a lot of people right now, which is this idea of how do I take it seriously but not take myself so seriously? Um, how do I not give all of myself into this thing, practice a little bit of emotional detachment so that um I don't lose all of myself in this. And I think again, like that's coming up a lot in corporate settings at the moment. Like a lot of people are talking about how do I um not lose myself in my work. And particularly if you're in a place where there's a lot of anxiety through the system, like leaders are really high pressure or someone's got high stakes and they're really worried about whether it's gonna happen. And so there's a lot of conversations that are very anxiously driven. People are really high pressure. They want a lot of you, they want a lot out of you, and it's not often because of you performing well or not, it's actually just because it's their, they've got a lot of anxiety going on for them. It's like, well, how do I remain connected to what I can do that's important, but separate enough so that I'm not owning all of that?

SPEAKER_02 32:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:31

And so I suppose I think that's another thread for how we unlock potential. And it's a lifelong thing for flourishing as well. Like anytime we strive, we will necessarily like care deeply about how it goes. Um, we will necessarily kind of like we do, we invest a lot of ourselves. We go through identity shifts. If I'm gonna give a lot of myself to something, I do see it as really important to me. So I think already there's a real invitation and a real tendency to give a lot of ourself and our sense of self to something. And I think that's why I am talking about well, hold on, it really, really helps to keep practicing a sense of how do I be a little unbothered, but not indifferent. I care, but I'm also I'm a little less attached to how things are going. As long as I trust that I've done my best, I can be a little unbothered by how it goes. Um, but but I can still take it seriously. I'm just not taking myself so seriously. Um, I'm gonna share. I was hesitant about whether to share this, but I am gonna share it because I do share it a lot. I have a terrible analogy for you if you would like it.

SPEAKER_00 33:41

I'd love it.

SPEAKER_01 33:45

So I I need you to imagine that in front of you you have a pot, and it's a pot of pea soup. So there's the soup, there's lots of little peas in it. And that is a really good setting. We have um all the separate peas here. That is what we want in pea soup. But then you come along and you get a masher, like a potato masher, and you put it in the soup pot and you mash it all together, and all the peas get all mushy. So that is often what happens when we've invested too much of ourself into something. We've gotten it's good to be in the soup. Like I want to care, I want to give my best, I want to care about how I'm impacting people, or I want to care about the impact I have, or um, I want to care about how th how this goes, I want to care about whether I've done my best. But if I come along and mash it, I've lost all my sense of self. I've I've I've given too much of my differentiation and my separateness away to what's around me. Now the goal there isn't to take yourself totally out of the pot. You want to be in it. Um, so the goal is that we reform our little separate pee, and we stay in the pot and we still get to be in it. So sometimes I just talk about try try and get a sense of whether you're still feeling like you've got your boundaries, you've got that sense of separateness, you can leave it behind, you cannot take it so seriously. You can invite that sense of I want to pursue something from a sense of mastery or for the love of it, but not because it's for the outcome or not because my total sense of worth and worthiness depends on how this goes in this soup. I'm still me, I'm still totally separate from how this all goes, but I'm just in it. Um so that's my terrible analogy, but that I often use.

SPEAKER_00 35:30

Okay, so I I like it. I think it certainly it worked for me, and I'd be really curious. And I think if it's worked for you, it'd be great to comment on this because I think but I got it, I understood where you were going, and I think it's nice for you to hear that because I think some people do link their identity of how well they're performing to probably how whatever the task is, if it's a team task, you know, whereas actually you can only do your role or your part of that task, can't you? And you can only be responsible for the effort that you put in. And you can only be responsible for how you turn up to work and how you present yourself, whereas and again, that's the and I think it's quite nice what you're saying there is, you know, just you know, taking some time to maybe think about the your P soup analogy and going, you know, have I got have I got just gotten messed up in my where I am, and have I lost who I am in this in this thing, and how do I reform who I am and how do I create my little my P. And I think you you said it nicely when you then turn around and went, it's then now I've created my new version of P. How do I create my own boundaries? And I'd imagine that almost the the P shell, you know, coming back around it. That was how I that's where I'd gone to that actually, my boundaries are known. Okay, so I'm I'm I'm reforming myself, but actually I'm reforming myself at 2.0, and this 2.0 version of me is now going, okay, well, I'm recognizing that did happen, but I'm gonna do my best is to avoid this from happening in a similar way next time.

SPEAKER_01 37:07

Yeah, and I really like the way you brought in like part of what helps that separateness is when I do radically accept what I really am here to do, what I really can do, what I can exert influence on, like all of that stuff that's within me, but the stuff that's not that's out there, that's in mushy pea soup zone. Um so it's it's you know that radical acceptance of what I'm what I'm here to do, being radically genuine with I know I'm good at it, or I know I'm skilled at this, or I know this is what I'm working on, I know what this is, this is what I'm proving improving, but this is the stuff that's within my control. And when I am really focused on being radical about that, then that also will help me to have that sense of being within myself, being a bit separate while I'm in it.

SPEAKER_00 37:50

And I think for me, what's coming up for me with that, and I'd love to explore other things that you've got potentially in this area because I'm I'm loving this. I'm just gusted it's only an hour. Um it sometimes that comes from finding that that space to play that out in your head, don't you? And I think when like you were talking before about when we're busy and we're all in the moment and we're worrying about everything else in the world, sometimes we don't take the time to go, what am I in the soup? Am I an individual P or am I just mushed up? Where actually, you know, one of the things I would kind of challenge listeners to do, if you're wondering now that question, then that almost is flag some time somewhere for to stop, almost re-listen to that part again and go, okay, so who am I? Am I part? Am I mashed up or am I an individual P? And and then if I feel mashed up, how do I turn myself back into the P? Because I think you know, for some people, they don't even take the time to, or haven't got the time or the capacity or to to even consider where they are. So I think that's a I I really like that because I think it makes it really clear.

SPEAKER_01 38:58

Yeah, thanks. And I will say, um, if if that's something of your your area of interest, like there are two other things that I often think about in terms like that radical acceptance of what's really within my control is a big one. I think as well, like spending less time in other people's minds. If you notice that you're worrying a lot about what other people are expecting, what their perceptions are of are you, um, that's often a sign that I'm I'm in the mushy pea zone. Um, and so I need to put put less focus on others. That's often one. Um, there was one other that came to mind, but I've already forgotten what it was. Oh, yeah. Be aware of the invitations that you will receive around you to participate in stuff that isn't yours. So that's back to just recognizing that sometimes we are in systems where there is like high anxiety that's just not yours. Um, and so that's just often going, oh, I've just received an invitation to like participate in that pressure or participate in that worry or participate in that, like, how are things gonna turn out? And actually, that's not, I don't need to accept that invitation. Um, so I think that's that's another one.

SPEAKER_00 39:59

That's really fun. I love that. Yeah. And my line with that, and it just resonated, could make me smile because I'd say, man, I got that. Sounds like a you issue. So if it's all right, you can keep hold of that. I ain't taking that on. I don't need, I don't need any more. I've got my own. You keep hold of that. And and it's just, but that's my own personal way of saying I acknowledge what you're saying, but you seem to be aren't you're trying to put this on me and I don't want it. So you can keep hold of it if that's all right, because I've got my own that I'm dealing with. Yeah. Um like that. What other kind of tools? You know, one of the things I read through the site, you know, I know you've got your three-part system, you know, and again, is that something you want to explore with the audience?

SPEAKER_01 40:40

Yeah, I mean, it's probably already come up a little bit through what we've been speaking about, but uh I'll do a little bit of a background. So so just prior to my work in performance and in organizational settings, even, um, I was in pure clinical psychology. And so a lot of my training and a lot of my like background is in both private and public hospital settings at the high point of distress. Um, and over time, and I had early research back in performance, so I've kind of like come back to my roots. Um but the thing that I've often been really thoughtful of was like, well, what are the themes though? Like I had a lot of people who were very successful and very high functioning, but who were not thriving. Um, and often with a few simple things, I had some real stories of people being like, wow, I have been operating off like low self-worth and fear for a really long time. And there was a sense of like, if only we met 30 years earlier. Um, and so I've I've often really thought about what actually helps us perform at our best and show up with our best even under pressure. And there's so much overlap of those particular skills, whether we're coping with distress at some really, you know, just on the pointy end of human experience. But also those skills overlap so much with the skills that help us thrive under pressure. There's just, there's heaps of overlap. Anyway, that's my background for all the thinking and the and the processes that are under this three-part process or three-part model that I often work under, which is the map to thrive. So it starts with the first pillar is around that idea of being able to train our mindfulness or our ability to be fierce and focused, is often due to that um foundational skill about how we train presence, how we train calm, how we bring awareness. And that's, you know, me as a parent right now, like my high performance zone is how do I train that mindful awareness or being in the moment? Um, that's that's the first pillar. And it's also tied into that as well, is some of those discussions about what are we doing with discomfort? Where do we go under pressure? Um, so there's the first pillar. The second pillar then is going, well, then top down and bottom up, what are the mindsets that help us have that internal posture at our best? And also what are the emotion skills that we need? Because we do know, as we've talked, like we've already kind of covered that idea, that emotion regulation is necessary under the realm of peak performance. And so that's the A is agility. How do we mentally and emotionally agile? What does a high performing and high high purpose mindset look like? And then the third part is also helping people to think about, okay, and then what sustains that for the long run, which is the P, the purpose, but it's it's also about perseverance. Um, that's where things like compassion come in. That's where things like passion, purpose, play, they're my three P's, um, come in. And it's actually thinking about that's, I suppose, more under the area of, well, how do I play to win instead of playing not to lose? What helps me access that my drive from a place of enoughness, from a place of acceptance, from a place of what matters, and how do I do that in the moment? Um, so there's the kind of broad range, and I reckon already some of that has really come out in our discussion, that idea of that map to thrive or those three pillars that are really helpful to train up if we're thinking about what unlocks sustainable high performance.

SPEAKER_00 44:03

I think it has, but I think what where how you just articulate, I think will really help listeners kind of understand where probably where they're at and how they can move from one step to another. So I think it was I think it's that's why I wanted to bring it back to I think we have, but I think some because you obviously know it and I've read about it, I think it was nice just to bring it to the forefront to allow you know a listener to kind of really understand how it all plays out. So I'm just interested within this is there any other models or anything you know you talk around playfulness a lot and around the ability to play where does that land in because it's you know every everyone when I look at hyper you know when you look at unlocking potential there's a lot of seriousness that seems to go with it sometimes isn't there so where does playfulness and play sit in it?

SPEAKER_01 44:47

Yeah. And again I think I have some access to this because I've got a lot of little kids like so much I have so much joy and awe and wonder just watching how kids play but I fundamentally believe that we've lost a little bit this is back to the curiosity like play and awe and wonder and curiosity they're all kind of a little bit under that umbrella. And play I don't actually mean just like being playful and being silly even though maybe play for you does mean, oh my gosh, I haven't listened to music forever and I just love blasting music. I love having a dance like no one's watching like sometimes play really does mean I've been so serious and so in it that I've just forgotten to just access those other parts of me. And we all have that part of within ourselves that needs to be spontaneous and needs to be creative or needs to not worry about how it looks. So sometimes it really is literally being playful and literally being silly. But sometimes the idea of playfulness is a playful mindset. I wonder what would happen if I wonder how else this could go. But even just that I I'm curious about how this could this could go I'm curious about how this could play out I'm curious about um what awesome stuff could happen next. Like I think all of that comes into thinking a bit about tapping back into a playful mindset. And even if again if we think about some of the realms of achievement that we look at even with sport is play. Like at the end of the day and I know that some athletes have spoken about this too but you know at the end of the day you might be really trying hard to get a championship or to break a personal record but like I'm running. I'm just running with a ball. And I don't mean that to like downgrade what you're doing because it's it is serious and you've put in so much work. But sometimes that ability of being like oh my gosh I came here for the love of play that's what this is about. So it's almost like coming back to what lights me up if I just remember and re-remember some of those fundamental aspects that already got me a little curious or already got me a little excited. What were those again and coming back to that. And I do think I I often talk about the idea of a lot of high performance is just preventing slow drift. So both within ourselves our autopilot mode our busy culture our urge to do do do um but also I kind of just touched on it the idea of culture like culture is moving us towards more and more focus on what's out there, what's next, what more, what better um and so we're often pulled towards a slow drift towards either just that autopilot mode or we're also pulled towards safety actually that's all too much and all too big. I'll just stick to what I know. And so I think preventing the slow drift back into cutting stuck and being someone oh I didn't really want to be someone who was just like angry and serious all the time was like oh preventing the slow drift is some of that stuff just remembering and re-remembering hold on what was important to me here or hold on what was I interested to learn about or hold on what sparked my interest do I have enough time to go and explore that thinking not even with a necessary outcome just because I was curious um some of that I think yeah did I touch I think I've gone I think it's really good and I guess what what's going on for me there is I think what so there's there's two parts I think in sport you know especially in the UK football, soccer whatever you want to call it um you know most kids do it because they enjoy it don't they?

SPEAKER_00 48:18

So you see lads up and down the street playing and every single park and then all of a sudden you sign for your dream club and the pressure of you know millions of people watching all of a sudden it becomes the seriousness goes up and you forget actually why why you became good in the first place. You know and I think I see a lot in founders a lot of my work is with founder-based business owners and they've got a real strong passion for something and it's that they're enjoying that you know getting that first customer and making that first deal and taking on the first employee and the buzzing off it and it's a real sense of achievement and then they're 10 years in and they're going why am I doing this? What's the point of this we've got 50 employees we've got millions of pounds but actually and you almost like you said it's they've they've gone I I I love what you've said there they've slowly drifted away from actually what was the driver and the purpose at the start and you know sometimes it you have to bring them back. So I love that kind of that that kind of idea that over time you do slowly drift away from that and actually how do you then remind yourself okay so why are you doing this in the first place? And I think it I think it leans into so many different high performance environments is if it is from a sport which I know is one of the you know one of the great things you've got I know I'm assuming things like a lot of the actors and stuff that they except that I know you work in a lot of things like that and and again it's an assumption but you know land in your first role and then the excitement of the first role but then all of a sudden you know you get into a a really big picture and then all of a sudden it becomes you you almost the little voice in your head kicks in and then you forget actually I I'd aim this because I loved it in here.

SPEAKER_01 50:06

So and and I think the reality is it's actually pretty boring to prevent the slow drift. Like it is asking multiple times or hold on what was this for what was this about like that it's it's a day and and again I'll do that this is normal life like remembering why I'm dealing with a kid tantrum in the way that I really want to deal with the kid tantrum. It's because of the kind of parent I want to be but I have to re-remember that and re-remember that and just prevent the slow drift and it's uh it's it gets boring but it's good boring.

SPEAKER_00 50:34

I think it's but so is eating healthy and getting up well and training and you know that sometimes the getting eight hours sleep I mean I don't know if you get hours sleep with three young kids but you know it's but it isn't it when people say oh we're going to bed early you know I like I like training early in the morning and so oh it's boring yeah but for me going to bed early training in the morning keeps me optimal. So when I turn up as a coach as a dad as a a friend as a colleague I'm optimal but it's because of those boring things that I do I eat well food and do other things so I I turn up better. So I think it's I think there's a lot of relatability.

SPEAKER_01 51:12

Yeah I I'm conscious is there anything of time for us um is there anything that you feel like we haven't covered that you'd like to cover before we kind of start moving into some of the advanced yeah it's interesting you know I probably won't do it justice by even touching on it briefly but I do know and I think it is important to think about that idea of and how do I unlock potential in others? So even if I just touch on a couple of ideas, you know, and one thing is and this is where all of it overlaps anyway is I think your job as a leader, if it's to get the best out of people, well you get the best out of others when you're also getting the best out of yourself. So you know the gap often that we see for leaders if they're where they are versus where they could be is not often a technical skills gap. It's often a mental or emotional or a well-being gap or a figuring out how do I handle pressure or figuring out how do I handle tricky people stuff. Like it's it's that internal side, that internal game. And it's also back where I come back to this idea of like compassion is for the ambitious. Because if you can't be a compassionate leader to yourself in those times and then you've got someone underperforming or you're going through a high pressure moment, we know that even there's some really good studies in the MBA like coaches who use threat, they'll have a tiny little uptick in performance but then those teams will battle and it's that same idea of yeah using pressure and using intensity or letting my anxiety spread out might have a bit of an uptick for some time, but it's got some rebound effects. You know people might start coming into work for you with a like don't F it up mindset rather than cool here's where I can thrive or here's where I can do my best or I'm just gonna have a try. So um that'll that's a long-winded way of saying like start on the inside if you are thinking about what it means to be a great leader of people. And with that I also I've just actually asked this question of someone the other week um who's been trying to just explore that realm of accountability but um if you take someone in mind who you lead or who you're um coaching or developing I think it's useful to hold that person in mind and go, okay, when that person who you're leading is at his or her best, what are you doing that helps? What kind of challenge from you sharpens their thinking and what kinds of things tend to shut that down.

SPEAKER_00 53:38

And I know it's super simple but it's a really nice idea of going okay well what leadership from me happens when I see them at their best I think that's another little point that I'll and I love that and I think you know and it all starts again with that you know when you're optimal and it's kind of the reason why I do it the order because I think you know if we're not optimal then obviously we don't turn up optimal or if we're not you know if we're like you've said if we're not compassionate to ourselves how can we then be compassionate to others I know some people are probably acting more compassionate to others and themselves sometimes there probably there's an there's an allergy in that at the sacrifice of themselves but then you get burnt out and then all of a sudden you change. So I think it's really but I really I I love the way you did that. So if we kind of move into the advice section and I you know curious what this is so if there were three practical things that people could try today.

SPEAKER_01 54:35

Yeah um I I would always start I think we shared one at the start with which was the mundane task you know don't overdo it if you come back and do that for like 30 days or even two weeks. Awesome. Like go and set an experiment for yourself. A lot of a lot of what I often talk about is just get the data like get some experiments going and see what happens. So if that's one that you can go and do an experiment of then awesome. The the other practical tool that I often do have is um we talked a little bit about that idea of getting our getting out of our own way and something I really like is going through the idea of giving giving giving the part of you that holds you back a bit of a name. So for example I'll have I'll have people name it as a chapter in the book the um there I go again just falling short there I go again not doing all the things I know I need to do um or there's that story that that you're always just miss the mark um or just miss out or there's that story and I get them to try and think about some of those times of pressure and what what are the narratives that tend to come up. That's that idea of like what's the yucky stuff you know what's the internal stuff and I get them to name it like it's a chapter in the book. And so then I ask us to to go okay well next time it comes up there's there's that story oh there's that story that like Susie's just a psychologist you know she's not supposed to be in the coaching realm that's sort of mine um there's that story and I don't need to pick up that book today I know how this chapter goes I've gone through it quite a few times before actually I know where it ends. So thank you thank you mind our mind is a masterful storyteller this if anyone who you're listening to does any work in a therapy called Act or a coaching method called Act they'll recognize this. And and what it's what it's training us to do is is recognizing that like language is powerful and we want to be really intentional with our thoughts but that doesn't always mean you have to think positively it's recognizing that we do have stories and narratives. We have a set of facts that then we interpret and we shape and so going okay well what are the stories that I tend to have what are the chapters in the book that I already know and often um there's a function to them they're helping me either avoid discomfort or avoid something playing out that I'm scared to happen but actually this is what's important to me. And so and that's similar to how we've gone before but actually like no thank you. Thank you mind but no thank you. And this is what I'll turn towards now. So that's that's the chapter in the book is is a good skill to go through um do you want one more? Do you want more how are we going for time? Have you got one more yeah okay so one that I really like this is one that I'm practicing for myself. And back to that idea of the business stuff the business stuff. So this is this is where I go um it's called the second take this is very brief again um and it's simply just going so the thing that you want hold that in mind imagine trying it out imagine doing the thing and imagine totally screwing it up imagine the mistakes you might have made now imagine that this is the second time what will you be doing um and I often think about what's my second take. If I was doing this as my second take what would I be doing because sometimes it's like oh I probably wouldn't have focused on this because it actually you know doesn't give me as much or um yeah actually maybe I wouldn't care about what people would say in the end because maybe I will fail and people laugh spectacularly in my face and then I'll do it again and I won't care what people say the second time. Okay we'll do that now. Do it like it's the second take now. So that's that's one that I am exploring the second take imagine trying it out. Imagine doing a thing imagine that it did screw up imagine the mistakes you could you kind of make along the way okay this is the second take imagine doing that now. So that's been my own thought experiment and my own practice.

SPEAKER_00 58:41

I really like that I definitely I think that that's it straight away made me go oh wow okay I've got a few things I might play that one out on over the next call of days so no I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 58:54

What's one principle you wish every leader understood uh I'd probably said it already I think if I think it's that idea that compassion is courageous and compassion is for the ambitious yeah beautiful so for people listening where can they find you you can find me in a few different places I'm a little bit on LinkedIn um and on Instagram so LinkedIn Susie Kindred Instagram I'm kindred.thriving but you can just go to my website kindredthriving.com that's where I've got the resources tab and there's a few things that I have um developed there that you can just take a look at for sure.

SPEAKER_00 59:35

I'll put all of these in the show notes as well so people can find you easily what are you working on next anything?

SPEAKER_01 59:43

Yeah I've got I'm actually doing quite a bit of talks at the moment so right now a few things are on pause while I while I prepare a few of those um and then I've got an eight week back to that map to thrive thing I've got an eight week course that's coming up that will be online. I've run it run it live but unfortunately people might have missed out on the live one but I'm I'm gonna develop it online as well. So that's coming up.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:06

Also when that comes out if you want to share that as well and we can put that in as well for people that are interested I think that would be nice because I I think that's a really good model that I think I'll help an awful lot of people so yeah let us know that and we'll we'll share that for you.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:18

If you're interested you can go on there's a wait list you can go I'll add that in the show notes too there's a link for a wait list if you're also interested in that yeah that that'd be really really helpful.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:28

Before we delve into one final challenge is there anything else you'd like to share with our um with our audience that you think will be helpful?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:36

No I've just had I've had a great time speaking I'm so appreciative of your time and your listeners' time that's been lovely.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:43

No thank you very much it has been it has been lovely and I think there's so many insights so I really look forward to listening to this back that would be great. So just before we we say goodbye to everybody what's that one final challenge you would push the audience to do uh my final challenge I think my final challenge is to go I'm just gonna do this set an experiment and pay attention differently especially if you have a moment of pressure in front of you set an experiment to pay attention differently amazing Susie thank you ever so much um it's been amazing really amazing thank you so much to our listeners thanks ever so much once again make sure you are following us just to make sure you're getting all the latest episodes please feel free to share this with us and if you want to rate us five stars is also a perfect rating to give so thanks ever so much until the next one Susie as always really really appreciate that that was amazing and uh hopefully we can get a part two in some point. Thank you Andy thank you so much thanks out bye