Stop Saving People. Start Solving With Them | Tim Holmes on Human Leadership

Stop Saving People. Start Solving With Them | Tim Holmes on Human Leadership

From rugby league to executive leadership, lessons in performance, identity and creating environments where people thrive.

What happens when the thing that defined you disappears?

For Tim Holmes, former professional rugby league player turned leader, wellbeing coach and performance specialist, that question became deeply personal.

After injury ended his playing career at just 21 years old, Tim found himself facing something many ambitious people experience but rarely talk about:

If I’m no longer what I do… who am I?

In this episode of Unlocking Human Potential, we explore identity, leadership, pressure, purpose, and why the answers we’re searching for are often already inside us we just haven’t created enough space to hear them.

This conversation goes beyond sport.

We discuss:

• Why helping people isn’t the same as saving people
• The difference between solving problems and rescuing others
• How identity can quietly trap high performers
• Why leaders need to put their own oxygen mask on first
• How to listen when your internal voice starts getting louder
• Why performance and purpose aren’t always the same thing
• Practical ways to create environments where people thrive

Tim shares his personal journey through injury, identity loss, depression, rebuilding, and ultimately choosing purpose over comfort.

If you’re a founder, leader, athlete, ambitious professional or someone wondering whether the path you’re on still feels like yours this conversation is for you.

🎧 Listen now.

And ask yourself:

What action have you been putting off that you could start today?

About Tim 

Tim Holmes is a former professional rugby league player turned high-performance leader, wellbeing coach, and sports executive with a passion for people, culture, and unlocking potential. 

From competing in the Super League with Widnes Vikings, to leading player welfare, strength & conditioning, and club operations, Tim has built a reputation for bringing energy, accountability, and human connection into every environment he enters.  

Now working across leadership, team development, customer experience, and performance culture, Tim combines elite sport lessons with real-world business insight helping teams, organisations, and individuals create environments where people thrive both on and off the field.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Welcome to Unlocking Human Potential. With me, Andy Hosgood, a show dedicated to exploring what it really takes psychologically, behaviourally, and practically to help humans thrive through conversations with leaders, founders, coaches, behavioural experts, and people shaping how humans perform and grow. Is this for you? But if you're a leader, a founder, a business owner, or an ambitious professional who wants to do more than just perform, they want to grow, inspire, and bring the best out in themselves and their people, then keep listening. Because the mission is simple to explore how individuals and teams unlock potential in themselves, in others, and the organizations they shape. Every episode is a deep but relaxed conversation built around three core questions. How do you optimize yourself? How do you unlock potential in others? And the best advice for you, the listener. Now, over to the episode. Really hope you find it helpful and insightful. Just before we introduce our next guest, please make sure you press the follow button to keep updated with the latest episodes. Additionally, special thanks to 246 Photography and PixelMate Brands for making this podcast a reality. Now over to the episode. Tim? Welcome. So Tim Holmes, a former professional rugby league player, turned high performance leader, well-being coach, sports executive with a passion for people, culture, and unlocking potential. Nice. From competing in the Super League with Witness Vikings to leading player welfare, strengthening editioning and club operations. Tim has built a reputation for bringing energy, accountability, and human connection to every environment he enters. Now working across leadership, team development, customer experience, and performance culture. Tim combines elite sport lessons with real-world business insight, helping teams, organisations, and individuals create environments where people thrive both on and off the field. Yeah. So, Tim, welcome to unlocking human potential.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

Thank you very much. Thank you. ChatGTP Bio did really well. Awesome, mate. It was brilliant. It made me sound like I know what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_00 2:29

Well, I've also done a bit of research into you as well. So and uh well, everything that I've read sounds like you know what you're doing as well. So there's an assumption.

SPEAKER_02 2:37

There's a blag somewhere in there, I think.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

Well, I think we all know something about something, so I think it would be really good. Um, you know, one of the one of the great things, you know, why we got connected is because you'd obviously listen to Bob's and you'd commented on a on a on a post, and I then and my natural curiosity is to go, who's this guy? Yeah, so then you look at your LinkedIn profile and go, Oh, this guy's actually got a bit of substance behind him, actually. He's gonna play the game, yeah. And it was more the fact of you when you when I you know, so for me, when somebody kind of compliments, it's the where's that come from? As in, and then I go, Okay, so what is that person complimenting you because he knows Bob, or is it actually because he holds something around the conversation? So when I when I then looked at you and I thought, oh, this acid guy has got some substance behind him, hence why I went, oh yeah, you're right. You look like you'd be quite good for this. What do you think about coming on? So it's lovely to finally put it together.

SPEAKER_02 3:41

Well, thanks, yeah. And I'm I'm like I'm really glad to be here to have the conversation. That it's interesting you say about how we connect. So I I I kind of live in this world in this space in my head that we don't cheerlead enough for each other. Yeah, I I think in life, in general, uh it we often only connect with people when we want something out of the other side, yeah. Or it can feel like that at times. So I'm just I'm very conscious that known Bob for a long time. Bob was with me during a certain and we might go on to it later on in the conversation, a certain time in my life when I was struggling. So it's just I see it important to keep the tabs on people, cheerlead when possible, and genuinely the conversation you had, and then I delved into other was like actually, podcast is really good, and I know in this space it can be hard to get something going, yeah, and consistent, and you're doing it, so yeah, well done. And no, I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 4:43

And um it's been really nice because I think that's how it's grown, it's grown from the kind of very similar, you know, you get somebody on and someone's gone, oh, that's quite nice, and and and I'm going, actually, I think you'd be a good conversation. So yeah, I think it's really nice, and I think and I think it's great because you know, everything that we are trying to do with the podcast is try and share people's experiences and real. And that was one of the set, especially from our first conversation. I went, you know, it was it was a really easy conversation we first had on the phone. I thought, you know what, we need to record this, and even since pre-pressing live, the conversation's been really easy. So, you know, hopefully that comes across to our listeners.

SPEAKER_02 5:21

I think you you generally in life find your people as well, don't you? Yeah, and there's you know, there's roots and there's connections, and yeah, nowadays there's algorithms that help you, but you've got to lean into that and you've got to contribute to the relationship each way.

SPEAKER_00 5:35

So, yeah, no, let's see where we go. That's fantastic. Look forward to it. So, like we always do, we always, you know, curiosity is kind of part of underpinning me as a human and as a coach, and one of the things that and definitely been a topic of the podcast. So, my curiosity is what is something you're curious about right now?

SPEAKER_02 5:53

Well, we we did it before, didn't we? About dropping the canon here, and one of the big ones, look surprised, is why no one has created a soundproof coaster.

SPEAKER_03 6:01

But it is true, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 6:03

Uh but yeah, so I could use that one. Uh no, at the minute, someone um I was watching something a few months ago, and a phrase was said, and it it bought into a lot of what I try and do in life, philosophy of life, but has made me more aware of leaning into it. So the saying was we're we're here to solve people, we're not here to save them. Okay, and early on in my career, as I've you know, gone into any form of I've always tried, I think, subliminally to save. So if someone was doing something, struggling with work, I would jump in to save them, not help them figure out why they couldn't do it. Okay, and when I'm doing that with people my age, from similar, from my similar backgrounds, I find the ability to help solve them now easy.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 7:03

What I'm curious now is the mind of the youngsters coming into business environments, sporting environments, whatever, life, and how do we solve their view of the world in relation to how we would like them to operate within it or how we see better. So hence why I'm so curious because I can't really put it in terms, it's figuring the the younger brain at the minute in terms of what makes them click, what then can ignite passion, and how do I make it relevant to them in a space where potentially they don't even see the need to do it yet because they think they've got it figured out.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

So that's yeah, it's yeah, that that can we just hold you on that for a little second because one of the things is I guess what what I heard is the difference between save and solve. Can you just I I think I understand where you're going with that, and I've got there's some straight away I lean into my coaching models that kind of appear in my mind. Yeah, just for people that maybe are unfamiliar with that, can you just share the difference or give examples that might help people understand?

SPEAKER_02 8:18

Yeah, well, the the way I took it, and a lot of it is is perception on a saying, isn't it? The way the way I took it and it resonated with me is that when you're working with someone or you see someone that you're struggling to align, yeah, align with, it's helping the solve part of it is me understanding where are you coming from and looking at this problem.

SPEAKER_01 8:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 8:47

Once I can figure that out, yeah, I we can then kind of I can then try and find a common ground and I can we can navigate the situation.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:58

If all I'm doing is fighting a complete contradicting argument in your head, I see what you're saying, yeah. All I'm then gonna do is get out of the way.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:07

Let me do it for you, let me show you how to do it. Okay. I need to solve what's going on in your brain to then figure out how you are better, you know, how to help you see the world.

SPEAKER_01 9:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

It fits in with conversation. There's like three conversate types of conversation, isn't there? There's the need to vent, there's the emotional support, and then there's the feel to be a tribe. Often when you're having an argument with the other half, it's because you're having two different types of conversations over the same subject. Yeah, that it's that type of that's where I'm going with it. Where are you coming from as a younger person right now, sat in that chair? Yeah, why are you struggling in this situation to solve a problem?

SPEAKER_01 9:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:54

And now how can we have conversations around that to help you work out how to fix the problem? Does that have I made that?

SPEAKER_00 10:01

Yeah, it makes mass. I mean, to me, my and I think there's two things that come to mind in my interpretation of that is one, I think, I think it's really powerful because I think a lot of adults struggle with that.

SPEAKER_03 10:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:13

Recognizing the difference of how they're behaving. So I think if we can, if you can influence younger minds with that, then actually they're taking a real strong skill into adulthood.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

Which I think if you're gonna go into any, you know, human connecting, you know, we don't know where the world's gonna go with, you know, everyone's panicking about AI, yeah. Which actually is gonna make human connection probably more powerful and more strong because it's gonna there's already less of it. Yeah, how kids are communicating through Snapchat, TikTok, and all that more like it, which is fine, but it's different, and you know, as as parents, we're navigating that a lot easier, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:49

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

Well, yeah, but but they can communicate easier, so there is there is increased communication, the complexity of communication, but then human connection in real life thing is something which you know, as a teenage daughter, I know she's navigating, it's alright communicating through a text, but then face to face, that's different. Yeah, why do people behave differently? So she's navigating that, which is which I think is really important. It is tough, but again, if you're then helping them, you know, she's advantaged, disadvantaged to have me as a dad who spent the whole 25 years on the quilt. Yeah, but also spend the years, you know. My my kind of my hobby is reading around behavioral psychology and you know, and understanding the human brain and you know, unlocking human potential and all these things. So for me, that's I'm very well versed at trying to help her navigate that world, but without also trying but still trying to be a dad, yeah, and not kind of as it like you're telling her what to do.

SPEAKER_02 11:48

Counseling session, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:49

Yeah, because you've got to work that out. And the other thing for me was that you know, and how it landed for me when you were saying that saying was in one, you telling somebody, well, they're not actually ever finding a solution for themselves, because actually what you're doing is rescuing them. If you lean into the drama triangle, you've actually jumping in and rescuing them. So, you know, what are they learning? Well, every time I'm struggling, it's alright, because Tim's just gonna sort it out for me.

SPEAKER_02 12:14

That's it.

SPEAKER_00 12:14

Well, you what happens when you're not there?

SPEAKER_02 12:16

It creates so many single points of failures in so many organisations, and that's the issue, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 12:22

Whereas actually, but also it's there's an acceptance that failure's bad, yeah. So, well, if you can't do it, don't worry, I'll do it for you because you obviously aren't got the capabilities to do it. Whereas actually the solve part, okay. So, what actually is a real problem? Um what do you need to do for you to solve the problem? And yes, you may get it wrong, which means that you haven't quite got the solution right this time. So, what do you then need to do differently?

SPEAKER_02 12:47

To do differently, and as you as you're saying that, the saying takes so many meanings, hence the curiosity, and there's so many like roots of it. But as you're saying that, like often, the solve is how how many times do you are you involved in something where someone's talking at you and you're thinking, I don't even see why this is a problem? Like, and yeah, like just crack on. Yeah, the solve part for me is the why is this a problem to you? Yeah, not me telling you it's not a problem, crack on.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:23

What is it that is going on? What are the pressures that you're being fed? And and this is where we've got I'm kind of going down the the younger around the AI, around that something has gone on here that means this is seems really big in your world. Yeah, so let me try and without you because you're not telling me, and I've got to solve that part of it, yeah, before you can then move on, and this conversation can get a bit deeper. So, yeah, so that I'm I'm just a big one for the other the person on the other side of the room. What do you really want? What do they really want? What do they really need out of this? And how do we maximize that? Because once you you learn that skill, yeah, not only are you unlocking potential in yourself, you're creating this space for others to then go, wow, light bulb moment, this is it.

SPEAKER_00 14:14

Yeah, I love that, and I think that is part of it, isn't it? Because sometimes people don't know what they want, so they do need that kind of that space for you know, and that exploratory questions to sometimes help them go, okay. Now I work it out for I can support.

SPEAKER_02 14:28

Yeah, no, I love that. And it's the practising what you preach constantly because we all get caught up. I mean, you're saying there about your daughter, yeah. You know, parental instinct is to dive in and save. We were talking before about my little lad who's feral climbing to the top of a really high climbing frame. The the the parental reaction is to go in and be careful, be careful. He's got to learn, yeah. But yet we don't translate that into other areas of life offered. And so, how can we? And that that isn't just about then going around serving other people, in do in learning that skill, we are unlocking the potential in ourselves to actually become then a more influential leader within the space that we operate in.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

Hugely, and I think I think that is the power, yeah. I think that's the power we can offer people to, you know, um all of that. Hopefully, hopefully, but we can only do what we can do, can't we?

SPEAKER_02 15:31

Exactly, and knowing knowing the limits of that can often be the unraveling of us all as well, isn't it? Like trying to push and push, but that yeah, so that's where my curiosity comes from at the minute. How to what get inside inside that brain of it uh, you know, often as we do in all walks of life, we don't know the shoes that other people have walked in. We can't put ads, so how do we get in there the best we can and try and relate as much as we can?

SPEAKER_00 16:00

Perfect, and I think that's where curiosity definitely helps, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 16:02

Yeah, there we go.

SPEAKER_00 16:03

Nice. So, Tim and for first-time listeners, the the the podcast is really quite straightforward. There's kind of three, you know, three areas that we're gonna try and cover. So, how do we get the best out of ourselves and unlock our own potential, which we've kind of talked about? Then how do we get an unlock potential in others? And then I think if people are gonna give us, you know, a good hour of their time listening to this, you know, I think what would be good for the last 10 minutes is us to kind of wrap it up and go, okay, so what what are the summaries of this and how do we take some advice that people can actually do something with immediately? Um so kind of then going into unlocking human potential of self and unlocking yourself, where does that when we sent this over, where did that land with you?

SPEAKER_02 16:51

So it was where where did that desire come from? That's where it landed with me. Where did my interest in the whole topic area come from? I think as a you know, as a a young kid that always wanted to be a pro sportsman, yeah, there must have been an element of needing to unlock potential within myself to achieve what I wanted to achieve. It's just never very apparent where that comes from. We talk about we were talking before, weren't we, about bringing children up and where does the competitiveness come from? Where does so where did mine come from? And to be totally honest, I that probably an answer to your first question in terms of curious. I still couldn't tell you. Okay, what I did find when I then got hurt and had to retire and scrapped everything to zero, there was then a deep dive inside to say, right, who is the person you want to become? And having an ability to listen to self, listen to gut, and then thrive to find answers to the questions that the gut is asking you, then became the thirst for okay, how do I unlock this? How do I maximize this? How do I achieve things that actually right now my gut and my instincts are telling me I can't do? Okay, um, that's where a lot of it came from from a personal point of view, and often when people then you know start charities, it comes from a place of personal experience and personal growth, and from there it was at that point that I realised so many other people around me were actually having conversations with me on similar journeys, yeah, but without actually saying I'm looking for help to do that. They were just so clearly doing it back to the the solvent. So, well, okay, well, have you thought about have you tried? Have you done? From there, it was like there is a real need, I think, inbuilt in many, many of us. We just don't ask the right questions, we don't use the right keys, we don't uh listen to gut enough to be aware of what's going on, to then try and maximise our true potential. We sit in that road of ease, but then often leading to regret as well. And that and it it just doesn't sit uh well with me to to to sit in that realm of what if what so if I can if I can find out something within there that I didn't know, yeah, let's bang the door down and find out what's on the other side of it. That's that so that that's where my whole passion for the for the topic came from. And then being in rooms with people that then say, Oh, my eyes have been opened from a simple conversation, from a presentation, from the work we've done that I came in and actually was only here because I was forced in to talk to you, and now six months down the line, I'm realising I needed it more than ever, I just didn't see it. That then is the thing that fuels me to keep to keep going on my own journey as much as anything else, because when that passion goes, the passion goes, doesn't it? And the the the strength of message goes, so yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

I think I think we are always led by purpose. I think hopefully we can do, and I get that I get that vibe from you that there's a strong purpose of what you're doing and who you are. Can I just rewind a little bit?

SPEAKER_02 20:48

Cool. So there's so much in there, there is your eyes going.

SPEAKER_00 20:53

No, there's some gold in there, really good. And I think the bit that I'd like to go back to is you said that there was an element of going, I didn't really know where this came from, and then I got injured, and it was almost like there was a moment there that allowed you to give yourself time to stop and think. Yeah, is that a fair kind of that's that's why it felt for me that you know you're going on doing this, being driven by something that you weren't really aware? I guess my curiosity being like it was what was it, you know. Firstly, what age were you then?

SPEAKER_02 21:30

I was 21.

SPEAKER_00 21:30

So you're 21, so up to 21, it was just it's driven to this. What did the time being injured, apart from probably you know, an emotional roller coaster for you? Yeah, what did that time, what did you learn about yourself in that time that you think you're bringing forward now into the man you are today?

SPEAKER_02 21:48

Uh one that were one that the world will always keep spinning without us in it. Um we put so much kind of identity and purpose. I think on what we do instead of who we are.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 22:05

And regardless of what we do, the world will keep spinning if we don't do it. Okay. Doesn't matter how influential you are. Um which then took and that so that realisation that makes it sound like it was really easy. That realisation was actually the hardest part and was actually the mo when you say about the emotional roller coaster, that was the bit that was the right the identity's gone or that that jazz. However, once you figure that bit out and you come to terms with that, well then I may as well do and live in my purpose because the world's gonna spin anyway, whether whether I do what you know, seemingly what I I feel I should do just to keep my identity and my persona, I might as well just go and live in in purpose and and fully enjoy and fully experience and fully push and fully unlock. Let's not sit confined. Why, you know? So because I lived there was very much the uh ethos as a young lad that well, all he can do is run around on a gr grass field, right? So what's the best thing I can do running round on a on a pitch? Well, it's being a professional sportsman, and then it's being playing as it was rugby league in the top flight of rugby league, then it would be then to be international and playing in the best teams, and but that's just still playing in the grass pitch. The thought of being able to work with different types of people in different types of businesses was like nah na nah, all I know is rugby. Yeah, that's that's what we do, that's the I am what I do. If we go on what you know, how what makes me happy, what my purpose is, well then that opens up a whole other avenue. And so it was that moment that I make that sound like it happened like that, yeah. You know, yeah, several months of severe depression and drug addiction later, we were on the other side of it. Yeah, you know what I mean? But it it you've there's a there's a real awakening then at that point of right, well, let's go, and that's where you know moving on now and where I am now career-wise, and uh you know, made a just a big decision at the minute to come out of rugby league again, it's all down to purpose. We can live confined, frustrated, or I can say no, this is this is me, and if I'm going out saying to the world I want to unlock people's potential, I've got to live and breathe by it. Yeah, so yeah, so yeah, that that was the moment.

SPEAKER_00 24:52

Are you are you comfortable just expanding on that?

SPEAKER_02 24:55

So he says, Where's the dog?

SPEAKER_00 24:58

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:01

We didn't know we couldn't.

SPEAKER_00 25:02

No, it's just I guess the reason I ask is I think there's a you know, it felt, you know, I could feel, and I'm I'm I'm quite a somatic, whatever you want to call it, kind of guy. And one of the things I felt with that, there was that it felt a very pivotal moment. You know, my assumption straight away was if you're a young lad from St Helens playing rugby league, which for our American and other listeners worldwide is a proper sport, it's a sport that that you know, in in a in a town like that, that's a big thing, isn't it? It's a big, you know, that is you it it's a big part of the identity of towns like that, it's a big part of me for you to achieve that, and I'm sure that you know, friends, family, all of those things, knowing that you're playing at the highest level, you know, for that then to shift and you uh you use the word, I think that the identity difference, you know. I but for you to then come through and you know, like you said, uh I make it sound quite easy, and I was like, I get the impression it's definitely and the fact that you've come through that and the work you're doing today, which would be great when we can work well explore, you know, the fact that you've done you've done that. I guess how did is there anything in that moment, you know, where did you get the help from? And it seems to be, you know, you said there was depression, you know. I guess just for listeners to be thinking, you know, one, if they're hitting a pivotal moment in their lives at the moment in time, and if they're probably feeling a bit like that, going, actually, I mean, and I have lost a bit of my identity at the moment in time. Is there anything in there whether you that you can take from those moments that actually, you know, is there anything that you did? Is there anything that advice you could give to people at this moment they think would be helpful?

SPEAKER_02 26:46

It's yeah, the biggest advice is kind well, you alluded to it before. You said that the at the moment of being injured, I gave time to reflect, to sit back and reflect. What I did when I finished playing, what I did was uh still strive to keep the identity that I thought I wanted. So I threw myself straight into coaching. So I was in and around the club, and it and somewhat one of the players, Terry O'Connor, said to me at the moment, in time, you need, and because he obviously saw it, you need to go away, you need to leave because you need to work out what you want to do. And I didn't, I ignored it, and it was pivot-I say that because it it it resonates so much to me that I was like, he was right, okay, he was so right because I didn't. I tried to I tried to keep hold of it, yeah, and throughout it all, every bit of my body was telling me, Are you sure? You're really struggling, eh? You're not a player anymore. You're just pretending now that you're in a coach, you're just pretending, you're just trying to keep this facade going, and I was living in a world where I was trying to keep the facade going internally, yeah, and externally, everyone would have thought, wow, he's doing really well, he's transitioned really well. Well, I wasn't, yeah. Because my cupboards were full with drugs that you can't get over the counter. I was making sure I was topped up regularly so that everyone else, everything else could stay stable and everyone else could see this. And I was creating when you say what advice can we give, it's to be aware when that voice is going off and work out what that voice is saying inside us. Because often, so and you can see it, you you said there, like you can feel some of the work I do now is I tell people like your body leaves clues everywhere it goes, yeah, everywhere it goes, and what we think we're saying, often the other person on the other side of the table can see we're lying by how we hold ourselves, just how we look, how we so listen to that inner voice that's going on, and if it is getting really loud, just maybe start to take half a step to work out where it's coming from and why it's happening because it's only going to get louder, and then we get into this fight where I think I was that you know, that exercise. If if I stand against you and put my hands up, you will automatically push back at me. If I stand at the side of you and put your hand on your back and say, Come on, walk with me, you'll walk freely with me. The more force comes against us, the more we fight. And it's not a nice place to be in for anybody, let alone yourself.

SPEAKER_00 29:53

And and and I appreciate you sharing that because I think there's a lot of people that will resonate, you know. You know, maybe not everyone listening is being an injured rugby league player, but I think there's always points in lives and careers, and especially as we are, you know, our listeners are quite ambitious. You know, they're either from a sporting background, a leadership background, a business background, which you tick a lot of boxes, which is great. Um, but there's always points, isn't it? You'd lose your job, or you don't get that promotion, or you know, you've been in a career for a long time. I was talking to somebody yesterday who'd left a career in an NHS and moved into private practice, and all of a sudden it was like, oh my gosh, who am I? Yeah. Because my identity of this person is gone.

SPEAKER_02 30:34

But how many people do you work? Because I imagine you come across it that would go from NHS to a private practice, but then private practice falls apart. And they were that person that made that big jump from that NHS world that is pensioned, yeah, job for life, can't get rid of you or protected. Yeah, everyone's telling them not to leave. Yeah, they've left, they've gone and done that private practice, and the private practice hasn't worked.

SPEAKER_00 31:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:01

But I but I think And at that point, who am I?

SPEAKER_00 31:04

Well, the interesting thing with that is 100%, because what what happens is I think, you know, we'll come back to you, but I like the way you brought it back to me. That was good. I like it. Nice, nice. Um one of the things was, but I think in for my for me to answer that honestly, I think what happens is that as humans, as we're going through we're level, we we do create things of self-doubt, self-esteem, self-confidence problems, and so we leave an environment thinking that's what's causing the problem. Yes, we're actually if people really stop and think and go well, there's other people in this environment that don't feel this, so what is it about me?

SPEAKER_02 31:47

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 31:48

What is this environment doing to me? So actually, I can only work on me. So if you use the example of the NHS, you know, as an individual, you can't change the NHS environment, but you can change your interpretation of the environment. But people, what they don't do is look at their own interpretation of the environment and go, okay, so what's how do I work on me?

SPEAKER_02 32:08

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 32:08

How do I stop, pause, go internalise, work on me? So then change the environment. Well, that version of you is the problem, is then you're moving into a different environment. Still taking that version of it. Still taking the same version of you into that environment. So I think that's where the challenges still happen, especially from the work I do as from a coaching world. The identity they've had as you know, and it's very classic in the NHS that you're a band five, so you or band six, and you don't really know much. So you get told, you know, you're afraid to fail because people judge you. Well, you're not very good, are you? You know, patients, you know, oh you look dead young, you can't be very good. Yeah, right. So all of a sudden there's this level of, and then you look a bit older, or I've always looked about 40 since about 12, so I've always been alright.

SPEAKER_02 32:55

Tell me about it, you get and then you lose your hair and you get creases on the top of your head.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

So I've always looked alright because people go, Oh, he looks like he'd been doing this for years, even though I've been brand new to it. Um but still, there's a there's so that then sits with you, and you know, and I think it is a human trait that we then bring some of that through, and like you were saying, even the younger man's you know, we there might be stuff that in adulthood that things have happened in a childhood that we're bringing into adulthood that you're then taking into leadership roles, and it comes all the way through. So when you then, you know, use that example we were using, fail in a private practice setting, and people going, Oh yeah, you'd always fail. Well, no, actually, it you you probably didn't deal with stuff that you've been holding for a long period of time, it's just come out all the way through, hasn't it?

SPEAKER_02 33:40

That's it, that's it, and it's so it's listening to that guck because you know the answer. Yeah, you might not realise you know it, but you do have the answers, just probably in that using that example in that NHS setting, you've you've but buried it, buried it, buried it, buried it, and you've never actually had a chance to dig it up in the in that setting because you've been running on the treadmill, you've got to dig down back to find it. I mean, coming back round almost back to the curiosity question at the minute, that the the failure part really is a big part of the curiosity that the youngsters we've we've said a lot of things over the way they communicate now, the way they, you know, the big thing is I used to go out on a nightclub and I would always say it was a ratio game. If I asked enough girls around the room, do you fancy a drink? One of them at one point's gonna say, Yeah. That was a a way of dealing with failure, learning how to change, and I know it's a jokey way of saying it, but learning how that isn't there. So, how can we help create that? We're now getting to a point where now graduates are sending mums and parents are sending graduate letters in for applying for jobs, yeah. Like it blows my mind, but that is the space, that is the reality, that is where we're living. So, how can we help and unlock that? I feel like I'm repeating myself an awful lot, but that is the passion, that's where my drive, my drive comes from. It there's so much in it. Um I feel like when you brought up about the bio at the beginning, I said, Oh, it's all blagging. Yeah, it's because I'm feeling like constantly we're on that, I'm on that quest to to help and to to understand really myself how we navigate that unlocking of people.

SPEAKER_00 35:38

But I see I so firstly, I don't think you are repeating yourself if I'm honest. I think we're I think we're saying this. I think you're saying similar things, but I think that's because I I think they're relevant, yeah. You know, and I always my my example, I never apologize. If I I I actually say this sometimes if I run a workshop that says I'm probably gonna repeat myself the same thing a few times, right? So the first time it doesn't land and I repeat it again, repeat it. If I've repeated it five times, I probably because it's important.

SPEAKER_02 36:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:07

So if I've said it five times, not because I've only got one thing to say, it's probably because I really mean it, I really think you should say no with it. Yeah, and I think that's you know, and I think that's something that is important for people to listen to. If you're saying things a few times for you, that's a really important part. We should actually go, okay. Maybe I need to probably take that part and let's move into that conversation.

SPEAKER_02 36:30

All I'm thinking is all of the things my wife keeps repeating at home now. I think maybe I should turn on that.

SPEAKER_00 36:35

Maybe we should turn.

SPEAKER_02 36:36

Yeah, it's important.

SPEAKER_00 36:38

Okay, so the curiosity is what you're gonna do differently when you go, that's it, isn't it? Yeah, but I think it's it is important, and um you know, and and I agree, and I think for me, and then we'll move on to what you're doing now because I think it's great what you're taking your learnings from. I think I would, you know, to additionally to add what you've said to listeners. I think if you're feeling like that, you know, we had Sarah Davies on, she's a psychotherapist, and one of the things she said is just be comfortable noticing. You don't always have to interpret it, yeah. So you don't you don't have to take the time to interpret it, just notice what you're feeling, why you're feeling. So if that voice in your head is saying something, it's getting louder, just notice it's getting louder, but then it's about giving yourself permission. Yeah, when do we give ourselves permission to stop and think? You know, as you're aware, I have a black labrador, right? What's great about having a black labrador, wind, rain, or shine, twice a day, you have to take that dog out, yeah, right? For that one hour is my time to go, right? What do I need to do in this hour?

SPEAKER_02 37:43

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:44

What do I need to do? What I can I've given myself an hour, well, I've been encouraged to by these puppy dog eyes to say, it's good. Okay. So in that time, I can give myself permission to go, right? What do I need to process? What do I need to think about? What do I need to do? What do I need to reflect on? And for me, that's been really, really powerful because it's two hours a day of my phone's not normally on. I might have a podcast in or something, but you know, normally that's to help me kind of process things. I think it's like giving permission, giving yourself time in a day to reflect on going, okay, so what is going on for me? Yeah, why do I feel like this? What is that voice trying to tell me that potentially is helpful as well, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 38:23

It dead right, and it's it's knowing what is that activity or that time or that space that actually helps you become aware. Yeah, you said there about so many people will say a lot of people I work with, oh yeah, I get out walking. Same, I've we've got a dog, same as us. We've got a dog, go out walking every day. So I get outdoors and I get in the outdoors, and it never does anything for me. Okay, okay, but when you're out in the outdoors, what are you doing? Well, I'm I'm walking the dog, I've often got my headphones in, I'm listening to a podcast, right? Okay, and what kind of podcast do you tend to listen to? Well, it's all all the business stuff, yeah. So you're never removing yourself, yeah. You you're moving the position of your work, you're not really moving yourself out of work or out of that stress. So, what are the types of activities, and it can be as you know, an hour a day out in the dog, but that might at this moment in time freak you out as to haven't got an hour. Yeah, but we've all got 30 seconds, like you're saying there, about the other guest to be a well, to be aware how can you create a pocket? Let's just start along the whole James Clear Atomic Habit mode. Just start find 30 seconds. How are you feeling? What's that voice? Make a note of it, move on, crack on, do the rest of your day.

SPEAKER_00 39:52

Over a pattern of a week, over a pattern of a month, you're gonna start to see some trends, and it just might then be enough weight to then kick you over into the next type of thing to do, and so yeah, yeah, no, certainly I think it's a bit a good point, and it, you know, and like you say, I certainly wasn't saying that everyone should just go and buy a dog and just have to walk because it's not waiting for everyone. I'm just saying that just black lab works for everyone. Yeah, wait, oh no, no, you've got does that make sense? But yeah, it seems like jujitsu, so I've got a busy mind. So I've got you know, and I've I really find it hard to switch that off. Yeah, whereas you know, it's six o'clock in the morning when I step on a mat.

SPEAKER_02 40:31

You ain't got enough.

SPEAKER_00 40:32

I have to be present because someone is trying to strangle me or get me on, you know what I mean. That's it, and then we have a giggle and a cuddle afterwards, yeah. And then complain about the ring with the move off, you know, it's it's but you know, so you've got to find what works for you, dead right, and and I think, and I guess the only thing, and then let's move on to what you're doing. I would add, and I'm curious if there's anything more for you, is that you know, it is that recognising, like you've said, that voice is going and it's only getting louder, and actually it's not getting quieter. So, what is this trying to tell you? Actually, it's telling you you probably do need to take notice of it. What you do with that probably is then about you know, going, is this something I can sort myself, or is it something I probably need to sit down and with someone like yourself have a conversation about? Because I probably need to explore this. And I actually, although we both would argue, I think, that we've all got the answers or the solutions in our own head, sometimes they're not always clear.

SPEAKER_02 41:27

No, that's it.

SPEAKER_00 41:28

And we need support to find that clarity, don't we?

SPEAKER_02 41:30

Totally. Always put it down to stress is like a stimulus or an alarm to create action. You wouldn't ever sit in a building with the fire alarm going off and just sit there, hear the alarm getting louder and louder, and stay sat there. You would always take action. So, what is the action? It might only be a small one, you know, in that using the building analogy, room could be full of smoke and we don't know which door to take. But we're not gonna know if we stay sat here. Yeah, you're only gonna know if we try and fail through one door and try another. So, what is the voice saying? What is the first step away from that to take action and do it? Yeah, there you go. Awesome. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 42:12

There's a clip I was gonna say that we need to click that, don't we? So just tell us what a little bit of what so what have you then taken from you know, from your experiences that you've developed over this, and it sounds like you've been on a bit of a journey. Yeah, what is it now that you're doing that's obviously helping support and lock the potential in others?

SPEAKER_02 42:29

Yeah, so I and now as we as we speak now, I'm now uh general manager at rugby league club, okay. Um and actually the rugby league club that I ended up retiring from. Um, so it's quite a nice closing of the circle coming back. Um but living in very much what we've talked about here about living in purpose and not listening to an inner voice, listening to frustrations, living my way, but also being very aware of what other powers and views and perceptions on the role are, um confronting them and taking action. So I'm in the process of actually leaving my role at the minute. Um, I went into the role to create influence, which we have done. My way of doing it is different to the the way the current board deem the club, okay, and that's fine. That you know that is totally fine, but it's being aware of that, being aware that I can change, I can move my way of thinking into another person's and be frustrated for the next however long working career of my life. Yeah, or I can say, that's great, I've learned an awful lot from this opportunity. It's been brilliant, and it really genuinely has. Now I'll can and that's not to say we always have. Right answers. This is not just something that you know throw my toys out the prime and all of that. This has been over a long period of time with a lot of talking to people and working out the scale of the landscape around me. But ultimately, purpose and intention and everything that I feel that where I am in life right now is not aligned, and that's fine. And we move on to the next opportunity. That in itself, I feel is leading by the example, more so to my children, but also to my friends and the people around me. That when he comes in a room and he talks, he's talking because he truly believes it and truly means it, not because he's living to his paycheck. Yeah. And he's bending with the wind. I just, you know, of it's not that my way is the only way. Yeah. It's just I can't live with a voice nagging at me all the time that's saying, You don't fit here. This isn't right. Nah, nah, nah. Because ultimately where we it ends where we've just been told.

SPEAKER_00 45:08

Well, but that was and it was interesting you say that because that's what was my internal dialogue was going, you know, when you were saying about that, and it there's uh a misalignment, should we call it, yeah, of what you think is a the correct path and what others think is the correct path. They seem to be different, yeah. So you said I can either join their path, but then it felt like you going back to that inauthentic version of self, which would kind of so I was curious, and then you went, you know, but who how can I be a role model to other people that I'm saying this if I can't be authentic version of the self? That's it, and that's I I got that from when you were saying I thought, okay, yeah, that so you've you know, and especially if what you're doing and what you're saying and how you're trying to help others now, it seemed to be, you know, well, I'm I've got to do what I say I'm gonna do.

SPEAKER_02 45:58

And and but believe you me, it you know, often I listen to people like you know, just quit your job and go and do something you love, and everyone, yeah, it's all right for him. He's obviously got loads of money in the bank and all that jazz. Well, that's not true, yeah. But what I will say is there is a bizarre moment of clarity and contentness when you know you've made a decision based on that gut and it's right as opposed to fighting it, and that this is that it's that whole the awareness, you know, being allowed to just be aware that it's there, yeah. Creates that ability to then go, oh, yeah, actually, this is right. To the out to everyone else, this might look like a really bizarre decision. It might look like what are you doing when the club is flying, you've got supporters that are threatening to hold sittings at stadiums to make you stay, and you're still saying no. Yeah, bizarrely, nah it's right. Um not it's not a fallout, it's not anything, it's just this is the right decision at the right time.

SPEAKER_00 47:14

Yeah, okay. Can we share what's next, or is that we don't know.

SPEAKER_02 47:20

Okay, well, quite, yeah. Uh what what's next? So I will continue to work with clients, I've always kept clients, and I will probably yeah, I don't I I'm unlocking my potential.

SPEAKER_01 47:33

I love this.

SPEAKER_02 47:34

Uh I no, like genuinely I don't know. I am um there are opportunities that are down the road, but at the minute nothing's confirmed. It is about and it makes me sound really zen, and I'm the least zen person ever, but there are opportunities. I'm lucky and very lucky that there are opportunities, and there's people talking again. I will know when that opportunity is right. At the minute, that isn't there. I haven't necessarily nailed it on, but what I know that there will be an avenue that goes, yes, this is for now, this is where I want to be. The destination is up there, it is in my mind, it is pinned. I know where I want to be at one point in my life. It's just how where do we go and how do we get there? Okay, nice.

SPEAKER_00 48:23

I won't ask you to share that. You're all right.

SPEAKER_02 48:25

Well, I'm happily to share it because when everyone, when I don't get oh well, when I do, you can replay this clip.

SPEAKER_00 48:31

See, he said judgment here.

SPEAKER_02 48:33

No, no, no. I would love to be a CEO of a big sporting organisation. Nice. That that for me would tick all my boxes within the sporting world, but helping people be the best they can be to ultimately make the group perform at its peak. So that that is that is the dream role. Yeah, will we get there? Who knows? Are we working every day to get there? Damn right, we are, and along the way, there's an awful lot of lessons I can help other people with to get there.

SPEAKER_00 49:03

And and I think what's really interesting when when I've sat in this scene, you you're interviewing CEOs, is it's and people that you know have got the goals to get the topic, you know, and I get the impression that you're quite gonna enjoy the journey as well to it. I get this vibe from you that actually one, it's what lessons am I gonna learn in myself, but also what are the lessons I'm gonna be able to share for others on that journey. Yeah, and if I get that to that journey, then it's great, but if not, I've created a lot of good stuff in the world. I don't know if that's just because you but that's the vibe I get from me.

SPEAKER_02 49:37

That's it, and I think that's why I enjoyed a sporting environment, yeah. Because we you know, start of every pre-season, you've heard every player go, we've trained really well, this is gonna be the best year we've ever got. Some teams go on and win the comp, some teams get relegated.

SPEAKER_00 49:51

Yeah, yeah, that's yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:53

They all start, they all did pre-season together. Yeah, yeah, they've all got the same bonds in the group. Yeah, so whether we win in terms of get it, achieve it, the goal, or we don't, the relationships we've made along the way can be relationships for life, and they can influence people along the way that they may go on other places and achieve other ways, and we've been a part of that, and that that I think is the biggest strength we can have as a human in the world.

SPEAKER_00 50:17

Now I love that, and I guess the bit for me then on around the unlock your potential and we and then we'll we'll kind of start to put some advice together for people because I think there's a there's an awful lot of there's an awful lot of nice content in this. Um it's another one I'm gonna enjoy listening back and just pulling stuff out of. I think then, you know, again going into that kind of how to get the best out of others, what is it that you're how could you offer some advice? So let's say there's people out there who are in leadership positions now who may be new to leadership or maybe in bigger leadership positions or even at CEO level, you know, that but listening to this and going, I like this approach of how he's talking, you know. I probably don't I probably am a rescuer and not a you know a solver. You know, what is your approach to that you could share with people, or what is the approach that you've learned over the years of you in leadership positions that'd be helpful?

SPEAKER_02 51:23

The biggest one, and it often gets met with someone at the height that the height of struggle, let's say, the height of struggle with in this area often gets met with the most resistance when I say it, but is put your first oxygen, put your oxygen mask on first.

SPEAKER_01 51:39

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:41

Goes back to and ties into what are we saying about the body leaving clues. Down the line, it probably gets termed nowadays as authenticity, but if you uh a preaching, if you are saying you're a leader and clearly not adhering to your own belief system, no matter how much you pretend it will happen. So you know, from a practical point of view, how many leaders sit in the room and go to their team? My door's always open. Open door policy, just come in and see me. Yeah, great. But how many times do you as a leader walk up to a desk when you see an employee struggling and say, How can I help?

SPEAKER_01 52:30

Okay, I like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:32

There's a big difference in sitting in your office and someone going, Hey, Sue's really struggling. Well, she knows my door's always open, just come and talk. Okay, and going up to Sue and going, Hey Sue, I've just noticed.

SPEAKER_01 52:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:47

We act as leaders often with that sense of um, you know, open door pol that's the excuse. Well, yeah, they know they they know they can come anytime. Protecting ourselves, not making ourselves vulnerable to to then go out. So but you don't you're not aware of that because we're trying to find those quick fixes, the open door policies, they're saying often because we're so consumed because we haven't put our oxygen mask on first, because we're not in the space that we're listening to our team, we're not truly serving our people, we're just managing them.

SPEAKER_01 53:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:30

So you asked me for one bit of practical advice then, I realised I'm not really, but it's you need to figure out what puts you in that space regularly to think about leadership as opposed to management.

SPEAKER_00 53:48

I think you did no, I think you actually give it a lot of really good advice. So I my interpretation of it would help you kind of. So my interpretation of that was if you're suboptimal, so you haven't got your oxygen mask on and you're struggling to breathe and you're overwhelmed and stuff, you can't you can't actually see. Let's use the wood from the trees analogy. That there's people in your office, in your room, people you're working with that are struggling because you're struggling yourself, which means you haven't got that lens on to see others. Whereas if you're in a good place, you turn up feeling optimal, you feel like you're managing yourself or leading yourself, should we lean into in a better state, you're more aware of others, so you can see if Susan is struggling because you're in a good place, so actually now you can turn around and go, Susan's a bit different today. Yeah, maybe I need to go and have when she's making a brew, maybe I need to walk over and make a brew and just check in. Whereas if you're in a good place, you can't see that, and so you're unaware of that. But like you've said, really, she can come and see me.

SPEAKER_02 54:48

Where we all know actually because it that's protection, she knows she can come and see me.

SPEAKER_00 54:53

But but also it it's it's yeah, but that's I can't take any more on. But the challenge, I think the bravery piece of you, you know, the bravery piece of as a leader, you recognising that going over and go just checking in all good, yeah. Actually, stepping your toe out your office to go, actually, this could be a really uncomfortable conversation, which I probably don't have time for because I've got eight million other things. Exactly. But if I am a good leader, I need to go and make sure check in with Susan to make sure she's alright. So for me, it's quite a brave thing because if Susan then opens up, actually I've got I've given myself another kind of situation I need to then kind of support. Whereas actually, for Susan to walk into your office still takes the same level of bravery, and it's who's prepared to be the brave one to begin with. Yeah, that's how I interpreted it. And I think actually good leadership is saying I'm comfortable being brave and I'm comfortable being vulnerable, putting myself in a situation to walk over to you. Correct. So again, it comes back to leading by example, correct.

SPEAKER_02 55:52

And it may not be Susan that you influence, correct? It may be Jackie that's down the corridor that doesn't say anything to you.

SPEAKER_00 55:59

Oh, look at that. 100% look what he did. The ripple effect of going, oh my gosh, I can't believe they've actually gone out of their way to do that. Yeah, no, I really love that. I think it's I think it's a really nice philosophy to kind of live by, isn't it? It comes back to starting with self.

SPEAKER_02 56:14

Correct, correct. And my head, you probably saw then as you were talking about my head works in movies. I like everything goes to movies. And at the point of the oxygen mask, and what you were saying there was, you know, suboptimal, you haven't got your oxygen mask on, you're fighting for air, and the person next to you is struggling in their seat to get the parachute on, and all you're doing is faffing and faffing and faffing and flaffing. Yeah, if you might get that oxygen mask on and calm everything down, yeah, you then realise that the seatbelt buckles call it and it's a simple action to undo, but you don't see it in all the frantic chaos as the plane's plummeting. Can you see the trailer now? What happens as the water the plane it's the water? Did they get free? But that that you know that is the analogy. So yeah, that that would be one of them.

SPEAKER_00 56:58

And I think it's a really nice thing, isn't it? But I think it, you know, and we were we were sat in this room and we had Ian Penrose, who's actually the chairman of Preston North End football club. And one of the things he said is he when he was meeting people, I mean, their budget, the the business they had was a couple of hundred million, so they had a slightly big bigger, bigger budget, yeah. Um to do it, but he just got on a flight and flew to Boston to just go and have a conversation in the person's office to say, I'd rather just meet you in your office, you know. And some might say, Yeah, but it's all right, but you still have to then take the effort to get on that flight to travel, be away from your family and friends in the UK to go and do that, and like you've said, the impact of knowing that, and people go, Oh my gosh, he's he's flown off around the world just to have a conversation. Whereas you could have just picked up the phone up or now, could have just teams or zoom, yeah. Yeah, no, so I think it's it's a really nice philosophy. Yeah, there you go. So just before we move on to advice, because we promised our listeners that when we look at unlocking potential in ourselves or in potential in others, is there anything that we haven't covered that you feel is relevant or important?

SPEAKER_02 58:07

No, I think we're we're good. I think we've covered it in that in that sense. I think when we go on to the advice, it it'll kind of probably unravel more things, and I tend to love to dive in and jump on a soapbox and and start talking and rub it away.

SPEAKER_00 58:24

That's good.

SPEAKER_02 58:25

Uh but no, I think we're I think we're there for it.

SPEAKER_00 58:28

So three practical things that people could try today.

SPEAKER_02 58:34

Three practical things holding themselves to three questions, the three whys. I know it's very you know it's very popular at the minute, but so go on, tell me more. And tell me more, and why does that make you having those three questions when someone comes to you from your team with a problem asking why three times to really cut through the bullshit and work out what you sat here for? Are you here to vent to complain about a moment and then actually that's all you need, and you can walk out. And actually, I don't need to take offense, I don't need to make any change, I can just listen and let you walk out. Are you here because you want me to say you're right and you want to feel part of my tribe or our tribe, and we need to take on the world together? Okay, or do you need a little bit of emotional support because actually you're like, let me work that out through my questions of okay, tell me a bit more. Why does it make you feel like that? Rather than jumping in straight away at the first time, you know, the first presentation of the problem. So holding yourself and being aware to say three questions, and let's see where this conversation goes.

SPEAKER_00 59:57

And for the people that are listening to that, why that's important, can you share that?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:02

Yeah, so because I kind of mentioned it at the beginning, didn't I? About when we have often conflict within life, it's due to two people coming together over a subject matter but coming at it for different reasons. Yeah. So we tend to either want to feel like we belong to someone and get them on side with our views. Yeah. You know, I'm a Liverpool supporter. Are you? Are you coming with me? Or are you going against the United supporters? Do you know what I mean? Like that tribal. It's the I just need to get it off my chest. And once it's off my chest, everything's great. And then there's the action piece. Yeah, actually, I don't know what to do here. Yeah, can you give me the answer and solve it and help me problem solve it? What often tends to happen is you come to me wanting to vent, knowing full well you're going to go out the door and solve the problem. I jump in to try and solve you, and you're now arguing with me because you don't want me to solve it, you just want to vent it.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:04

So that then leads to more. So having the three questions of why helps you determine, okay, what what are you actually after here, Andy?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:14

Yeah, and and I think that was the that's the bit I think I wanted to kind of get to because I I understood that. But I think for people, you know, it's the what is the intent, what is the intention behind somebody saying what they need to say, and by you saying, let's just take a pause and go to really work out what's the intention. Is it yours you actually just need a rant, don't you? Yeah, I do. Right, cool, go.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:35

Yeah. One of one of I was actually talking to one of my friends on the way up here who he's going to do a work workshop, and he's quite apprehensive because he's never done the this big a scale of a group, and he's he's met messaged someone else who just with all his content and his mate just replied with mate, it's not about you, doesn't matter, it's about them. Yeah, and as a leader in a moment like that, it's knowing that it isn't about you, it's about the person on the other side of the table. Ask your three whys and work it out because so often we dive into self-preserve as opposed to helping the person on the other side of the table.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:16

And then, you know, I use that that um well I use I modelled it for men LP, the behavioural flexibility is to go, okay. So now I know where they're at, I can I can be the version that they need me to be.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:28

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:28

And I can match them at where they're at, correct, rather than trying to match them where I'm at and trying to work out where they're at and are we aligned.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:34

That's it. And that's one of the biggest things that I think sport taught me as a player.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:38

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:38

Dealing with different players, different backgrounds, different cultures, then walking out of there into a fan zone. Yeah. So you've had the banter and the chat in the changing rooms, to then walk out into a fan zone and meet a four-year-old that you can't use that. You know, how do I change my behaviour and the way I talk? So we do it in that sense, but then when we're in our setting as a leader within work, we tend to not be able to do it as freely. Yeah, so it's yeah, so it's three that person's coming in. I know I can so being aware that this is going to be one of those moments in terms of the advice, and now saying to myself, I need to ask three whys before I do anything.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:14

Yeah, no, it's good, it's cool, and I I was smiling because in my world, when somebody comes in and has and goes, asks a question or says something, the first question I ask Bask is, What do you need from me?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:26

Yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:27

And what version of me do you need to be in this? And then and some like people that know me well enough, especially clients, will turn around and go, I actually need nothing. I just need you to sit there and listen, and I'll go, sound sweet, and they'll just rant and I'll go. Be done, and I'll just hold the silence, and they went, Okay, you can speak now. It's really funny because I'll go, right, okay, cool. You've asked me to hold space, I will hold that.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:51

Yeah, brilliant. Love that, love that, they're really put off now.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:56

Yeah, yeah, but it I love it, but it just all it does to me, and I go, you know, or when they've done because I think I I agree, and my this is all about you, this podcast, but I'll share this because it's but one of my pet hates is when I say something and someone turns around and goes, you know what you need to do.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:13

Hmm.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:15

My response is going, yeah, I do, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:18

Yeah, thanks.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:20

But what would be helpful if you could just give me some insights on what you think. Yeah, I I think this, what insights you think, and all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, yeah. Whereas, but they jump, don't they?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:31

They like jump into rescue or they jump into solve or they jump into and so many of the kind of the leadership principles is kind of you know, oh well, let the person solve it for themselves. Yeah, but sometimes team managers, you know, you know, it's the analogy of well, what do you think we should do? You know, that that what do you think we should do, right? How would you solve it? But sometimes people need I need you to give me some options to feel better, and then I can go away and try and work it out.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:02

But you need to understand what what is it?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:05

Yeah, I love that. That's good. What principle do you wish every leader understood?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:12

Put simply, what I said there is not about you.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:17

I don't think there's anything more to add to that, is there? No, I love that. And I guess for listeners, then you know, we've had there's some really good insights that we've we've shared today, and I do appreciate them because that there's been a lot in there's a lot of depth to this conversation as well at times, which is been alright. Yeah, really good, yeah. I was using that with a positive intention.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:42

Okay, that's all right.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:42

Yeah, um no, because I think you know, going back to those questions, I think a lot of people have respond surface level, and I you know, and people requ questions of what do you want to hear? All those things. So I think by asking deeper questions and having depth of stuff. I think we get the true and real problem deep of the problems. And I think where we've gone today with some of these, you know, I've certainly pushed the towns with you to just to understand what was, you know, what is what have you done to get to where you are and where you are. Because I I really do value how you see the world and I think it's really cool and I think it's really important, and I think it's going to come across really, really well. I think some of the insights you I've shared have to lean into been insightful. Yeah. Couldn't think of another word to that. So it just it just seems like that. Yeah, thanks. Um so I guess what could you know from what we've talked about, what actions is there any any other actions that we think that people could be taking that kind of we haven't maybe touched on?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:52

The answer could be no it I mean no is the yeah, no is the answer. In in the sense of I back full circle, back back to the the solving. I'm very reluctant within this space when we talk about actions to give specifics.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:21

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:22

Because we then get into that realm of doesn't understand me, doesn't know me, he doesn't know my life, he doesn't know where I'm putting and I don't. But what I do know is that we all have these voices, we all have these gut instincts, we all have a purpose, but we don't all listen. So however you uh want to do it, uh or even realise the fact that you need to do it, you do you, yeah. But when you've got some questions about it, come and have a chat and I can hopefully undo it for you.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:06

I love that.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:08

Yeah, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:10

Yeah, do you know it's what to what rings for me when listening to you is a Stephen quote with uh Stephen Covey quote of seek to understand before to be understood.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:18

Yes, totally that.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:20

And I think that is what we're saying, isn't it? It's just like before jump in, it's just stop, pause, and go, what do you need from me? What do you mean by this?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:29

I'll give you a really simplistic reason for me saying that, okay, and it happened yesterday. A member of the team within the group, and I said to somebody, there are a box of balls there. The first need need ten. And I lifted the box down, I put the ten balls down, I said the first need need ten balls. I walked out of the room and came back. There were balls all over the floor. The balls that I'd asked for the first team had been separated, not pumped up, not took out of a bag, not put in a bag. And your first reaction is, What? What have you done? Well, you said the first team need 10 balls, they're there. Yeah, but the rooms are mess, they're not pumped up, they can't use them, blah blah blah. Now, use that analogy in what you've just asked me there. Well, he said I just need to walk outside for five minutes and it'll be alright. Well, no. Yes, I did say that. There was far more in what I said. Don't take my word as the the specific example of doing it. You need to find the path that suits you, that fixes you, and not just take you know, yeah, verbatim what I've just said and do it and deliver it. There's other bits to it.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:50

So yeah, that's lovely. So, where can people follow you and find you?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:55

Anywhere and everywhere. Uh LinkedIn is my my big one. I like LinkedIn because I like sharing ideas as you know and having the conversations. Do like a little bit of a silly video on Instagram, so Holmes from Home on Instagram. Um, but I'm just Tim Holmes on LinkedIn. They're the the two major places. Um and if you want a bit of silly content, always look at Witness Vikings rugby league because I'm I'm not not shy jumping in front of a camera on there.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:23

Well we'll get all them links as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:24

So then but yeah, but yeah, that's me.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:27

And we've kind of touched on it, but what you're working on next, we know the vision now.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:31

Yeah, so the vision now is continuing the continuing to be me and living in my purpose and finding the role that is me. So I'm you know, working with clients to help them unlock their best versions of themselves, yeah. And uh yeah, scaling that mountain of a CEO of a big, big, huge sports company, and when I'm there, we'll do another podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:52

Oh, parts of it. Well, we'll definitely all be following you, Jenny, for sure. It's been lovely. And is there any other challenge or final challenge you'd like to set our audience?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:02

What's that action that you've been putting off that you can so easily do now? Brilliant, Tim.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:15

Thank you. Cheers, take it, appreciate it a lot.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:18

All right.