Unlocking Human Potential with Andy Hosgood

What Elite Teams Understand About Human Potential That Most People Miss | Dr Scott Goldman

• Andy Hosgood • Episode 25

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In this episode of Unlocking Human Potential, I sit down with Dr Scott Goldman — performance psychologist, advisor to elite teams, and leader in the world of talent intelligence and high-performance systems.

Scott has spent more than two decades working with elite athletes, coaches, and organisations across professional sport, helping teams better understand decision-making, leadership, performance, and human behaviour. 

Together we explore:

  • Why curiosity may be one of humanity’s greatest strengths
  • How elite teams evaluate talent
  • The rise of AI in performance environments
  • Whether technology can ever replace human judgement
  • The difference between intelligence and experience
  • Building environments where people thrive
  • What high performers actually do differently

One of the most fascinating ideas from this conversation:

AI can process information.

Humans create meaning.

This episode is for leaders, founders, coaches, athletes, and anyone curious about performance, decision-making, and the future of human potential.

🎧 Listen now.

About Scott 

Scott Goldman is a high-performance psychologist who has spent more than 25 years working with elite

athletes, coaches, and organisations across the NBA, NFL, MLB, and NCAA. 

He currently serves as Head of Psychology for the Golden State Warriors and has worked with world champions, MVPs,

Olympic gold medallists, and top collegiate programs.

Dr. Goldman specialises in helping teams understand performance, decision-making, leadership, and talent at the highest level. 

 He has also advised the NCAA on athlete mental wellness and high-

performance best practices, while helping build AIQ into one of the leading cognitive assessment platforms in sport.

 Website 

Linkedin 

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SPEAKER_00

Welcome to Unlocking Human Potential. With me, Andy Hosgood, a show dedicated to exploring what it really takes psychologically, behaviourally, and practically to help humans thrive through conversations with leaders, founders, coaches, behavioural experts, and people shaping how humans perform and grow. Is this for you? But if you're a leader, a founder, a business owner, or an ambitious professional who wants to do more than just perform, they want to grow, inspire, and bring the best out in themselves and their people, then keep listening. Because the mission is simple to explore how individuals and teams unlock potential in themselves, in others, and the organizations they shape. Every episode is a deep but relaxed conversation built around three core questions. How do you optimize yourself? How do you unlock potential in others? And the best advice for you, the listener. Now, over to the episode. Really hope you find it helpful and insightful. Just before we introduce our next guest, please make sure you press the follow button to keep updated with the latest episodes. Additionally, special thanks to 246 Photography and PixelMade Brands for making this podcast a reality. Now over to the episode. So welcome, Dr. Scott Goldman. Thank you for joining us. I'm excited to be here. It's good to hear you. No, it's brilliant. And you know, what was quite nice from having a conversation with Adam prior to this and what you've created with the AIQ stuff. Um, and then you know, having a good look at your CV and listening to your work, you know. I think the listeners are really going to enjoy the conversation and a lot of the things that you've got to say today. So thank you very much for joining us. So, for our listeners, uh, this is Dr. Scott Goldman, high performance psychologist who spent the last 25 years working with elite athletes, coaches, and organizations across the MBA, NFL, MLB, and the NCAA. He currently serves as the head of psychology for the Golden State Warriors and has worked with world champions, MVPs, Olympic gold medalists, and top collegiate programmes. Dr. Gorman specialized in helping teams understand performance, decision making, leadership, and talent and ties level. He's also advised the NCAA on the athlete mental wellness and high performance best practices, well building, well helping build the AIQ into one of the most leading cognitive assessment platforms in sport. So I think absolutely that you know you are when I was looking at the credentials and I was looking what we what we set out for the creating unlocking or unlocking human potential as a podcast, you tick so many boxes, so it's great to to to finally get you on this conversation.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you. Yeah, when I hear you give that list, all it makes me think is man, I'm old. Well that there's a lot of there's a lot of tread on those tires. There's a lot of wear and tear there. But uh, anyways, there's not much left, there's not much tread left, I guess is what I meant to say. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00

There's still a smile though, which I think is always good, and there's still the energy, which is which is good. So one of the things that runs through um all of the all of the listeners, all of the all of the kind of guests that we've had on is curiosity. Um so someone'd like to start with is what's something you're curious about right now?

SPEAKER_01

Well, um before I answer that, I I and I hope this is okay. I love the concept of curiosity, and I think it's something that kind of separates us from other species on this planet. Like, you know, we're the we're the only species that competes recreationally. Now I know we're talking about curiosity, but I think competition and curiosity kind of go hand in hand a little bit. So, you know, other species on this planet they compete for territory or they compete for mates. We actually are the only species that kind of do it recreationally, and and we're also the only species to have gone to the moon. So I think there's something kind of neat about us being curious explorers. So I I like the concept that we're kind of going down this rabbit hole of curiosity. All right, so what am I curious about right now? Um I think I'm curious about two things in the spaces that I'm sitting in. One is the infusion of technology, it seems to be accelerating exponentially, especially with AI. So I'm watching and I'm listening and I'm observing to how pro teams are managing the AI arms race. I think the other thing that I'm kind of curious about is um always human interaction. So it's interesting because one is incredibly new, AI and technology, the other one's incredibly old. Like humans have been interacting for you know thousands and thousands of years, and we're still trying to figure that one out. So those are the two things that I'm curious about right now.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, nice. And how are they, how do you think they two link? Because obviously AI is in so just wondering where you see the kind of crossover.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so right now I'm kind of in uh draft brain, and I don't know when this is going to be aired, but you know, the NBA draft is in about a week, two weeks. And I'm doing a lot of prep work for the teams that I work with on that. So I think what's kind of fascinating, right, is if you look at um, if you think of a draft room and the healthy debate and discussion about which players we should select, it's not that different than you and your buddies having a pint at the at the pub talking about which player you think is best. And I always felt like the invention of Google probably decreased the number of barroom fights.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Because if you're talking about like who's the greatest fighter of all time or who's the greatest, you know, footballer of all time, you would have this healthy debate that was very much that human interaction we were talking about. And now it's like, well, let's just see who's the best rebounder of all time in basketball. I don't know, let's let's ask Google. So I think what's interesting is AI is getting to a point where you can have a conversation with it. Um I did this the other day just as an intellectual exercise. I I was on a road trip for about four hours, and it was one o'clock in the morning. There wasn't a whole lot of people I could call. So I pulled open the AI app and I had a conversation with it just to see where the conversation would go. So I think where the two intersect is like if we're gonna settle a bar room debate um about which player we should draft, are we asking each other or are we asking AI for that answer? And which answer do we value more?

SPEAKER_00

And do we have an answer to that, do we think?

SPEAKER_01

So, as one of the things I try to do with my own curiosities is I try to seek information so that I'm not just kind of like waxing poetic or pulling things out of my backside. And one of the things that I came across was an article that said something that resonated with me, where it said AI, you know, the benefits of AI is it's unbiased, it's impartial. However, um, it's only as good as really the way you guide it. So you have to ask it really important questions right now. Now, that will likely improve, but it that is one of its limits. The other limit is being able to tell anecdotal stories. So going back to like we're in the draft, and let's say we're talking about Andy's on our draft board. You know, Andy's Andy's likely a top 10 pick. And and then I know like, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you know, a lot of the European leagues they don't quite go through a draft process because they have more like the development academies and stuff. But so let's just say it's maybe like the the transfer portal, right? Or um yeah, what do you isn't that what you all call it, like right? The transfer window? Window, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Transfer window, sorry, college in American college, we call it transfer portal. So the transfer windows open, and now we're debating. Should we, should we? I think we've got a shot at Andy. Should we grab Andy or not? So if you ask AI again, and you ask AI like kind of the right questions, based on our style of offense and everything that we're doing, is Andy a good match for who we are? However, where the scout or the talent evaluator, the human, can go, you know, Andy reminds me an awful lot of Steve when we were with Steve five years ago. And you remember how it played out with Steve and what happened with Steve? Because here are some things that like AI just wouldn't know because these things aren't public domain for it to pull from.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

My gut tells me that the end game will probably be more of a yes and kind of thing. One doesn't replace the other, it's really about some form of harmony.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. No, I and I and I can see that, and I can see how that's going to play out, isn't it? One one offers you a different and insight. And again, so I think that's and it's interesting, isn't it? And especially the world you're in, especially the world to know what you're creating with the tool that you've got. It's a really interesting concept, isn't it? And really helpful tool.

SPEAKER_01

Well, one of the things that we did with the AIQ is we did create an A, we call it AIQ Plus, and it's an AI model, it's internal, it doesn't have open access. So it, you know, we we hold the fidelity of the information that it pulls from. It does not go across the internet to pull it because compared to a lot of other sources where that might be of value, when it comes to sports, there is a significant difference, I think, between people who are outside the building and then people who are inside the building as far as what pieces of information they're digesting. So um so we keep it in a closed-loop circle so it doesn't have outside access to the internet at large. Um, we fed it over 297 documents of intelligence and intelligence theory, especially in the world of sports. And then we also fed it um playbooks from professional leagues. And then we also gave it all of the things that we've ever constructed for teams. So, like our development books, our scouting reports, our um analysis and understanding of how players operate and function. With the AIQ Plus, one of the things that we like to highlight is the AIQ Plus was intended not to teach teams or players about how to understand the AIQ, but rather how to have teams, coaches, and players understand the player.

SPEAKER_00

For those people that are listening or unfamiliar with the platform you've created, can you just give an over summary of what the AIQ is?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean, sometimes when talking about the AIQ, it's almost like you almost have to start with what the AIQ isn't, right? So I think a comprehensive athletic profile consists of four domains, um, four buckets, if you will. So the first one is physical, big, strong, and fast. Second is experience and knowledge. So, you know what kind of player you're getting when they come from certain schools. Um you know, and forgive my English Premier League ignorance, but like, you know, it seems like whenever you going back to the transfer window, it seems like if you grab a player from Brighton Hove Albion, there's a good chance that um he's a superstar and yet might not be as good in your place as he was there, kind of thing. So, so you've got experience. Third bucket is character and personality. You know, does this person make the locker room better in some way, shape, or form, or does he poison the the well? And then the last piece of a comprehensive athletic profile is intelligence. And I think intelligence is something that people often interchange with knowledge, and it's not so um, and someone told me this once. I was like, oh, this is an interesting way to describe it. Intelligence is knowing that tomato is a fruit, knowledge is knowing that you don't put tomato in fruit salad. So so I just think when you talk about intelligence, the way I like to think of it is it's kind of like it's the raw elements of your uh cognitive ability in regard to acquiring, processing, and applying information.

SPEAKER_03

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

So if knowledge is having the answer, intelligence is how you go about getting to that answer.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And in sports, like if you're a center mini and you're scanning and looking for information, the ability to scan and store information is a form of intelligence. Once you can scan well, then it becomes, well, what do we do with that information? That's where knowledge starts to kick in. So um, what the AIQ does is it focuses on the intelligence aspect of those four buckets. And I think what it helps is when you see two players that are both big, strong, and fast, and one seems to go to the right place and the other one doesn't, it becomes an interesting mystery of well, why is that? And I think people who are well informed have a tendency to make really smart decisions. And we we already know, you mentioned your backgrounds in physio, so we already know pretty good how to measure things like strength and mobility, as well as limitations, right? We're pretty good at watching film and understanding capability of their experience. It's really hard to get information on a person's character, but again, you can ask their previous coaches or you can kind of interview them directly, and you can get a window into what their values are and what they believe. But this aspect of intelligence prior to the AIQ, there just wasn't a way to really capture it in the sports world. So my partner Jim Bowman, who's an awesome human being, highly intelligent, um, he and I came up with this idea where we said, I think we can help kind of illuminate this final piece of the puzzle.

SPEAKER_00

Nice, nice. No, I'm and and having had a bit of access through Adam and had a look at it, then you know it's a very impressive tool. And I would certainly I've got what I will do is drop the link for the listeners in in the show notes so that anyone can then really, you know, look into it further. Um that'd be great, thank you. So the concept of this podcast and for new time listeners, it's in three categories. It's it's looking at how do we, you know, unlock potential in ourselves and become the best versions of ourselves and how that can happen. You know, if you're in a leadership role or a you know, a management role or a coaching role, how do we get the best out of others? And then what we're gonna do is we always believe that if someone's given us kind of 50 minutes at a time, that what we can try and do is help them wrap it up and put some, you know, some advice in the end. So I guess when we're looking at unlocking our own potential and getting the best out of ourselves, is there any where does that land with you, you know, in your experience of working with individuals?

SPEAKER_01

Um so funny, it lands all over the place, but I think this is where I like to start. Sometimes I get the impression in the world of psychology with the billions of dollars of books on shelves or the millions of podcasts that are out there. Um, I think we're on a quest, right? I think we're on a quest to try to be the best versions of ourselves. And I think sometimes we're searching for a simpler, easy answer. And I firmly believe human beings are wonderfully complicated, and I believe human interaction is a multiplier of that complication. So the first place where this subject matter kind of sits with me is I'm not so sure a lot of the people who claim to be experts on this stuff really know what they're talking about. Okay, and I'm pretty sure I probably fall in line in that group.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

So what I'm about to say is based off of my studies, what I believe of the science that resonates with me, because I think there's this old adage of like for every PhD, there's an equal and opposite PhD. So, like, you know, you can always see someone argue, like, oh man, if you're if it, you know, like pain is uh is just weakness leaving the body. Like, you know, you have that kind of like aggressive mind kind of pursuit, and then you have the oh be more zen and and go with the flow of the river kind of thing, and and the universe you know avails itself. And and I find this kind of juxtaposition and debate always exists. So, what I'm about to say is really just kind of my own, I don't know, just it makes sense to me, but it I can't say that it's truth or any more truthful than anything else that's out there. Um, though I do feel like I have a healthy skepticism sometimes about this stuff. Because if we can understand human potential, if we can unlock human potential, I think we would have by now, you know, and that's what's beautiful about human beings is our complexity, you know, whether you're watching the stock market or trying to prevent um murders or robberies, or you know, again, trying to engage in sport and letting this wonderful competition expand. Um, so where where I land on this is I think when we talk about human beings in the world of performance and sport, I think a lot of times what we're really talking about is their production.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

You know, oh, this guy's amazing. He's had five goals and three assists in the last seven matches, kind of stuff, which I mean, that's a really outstanding run. Um and I think we make the assumption, like, oh, so again, let's say Andy's had five goals and three assists in the last seven matches, and for whatever reason he's available to us in the transfer window, it's like, let's go get Andy. And the reality is, is like we think by grabbing Andy, we're grabbing that production. When I think what we're really grabbing is just Andy. I think that that production, that mastery quest that you're talking about, best version of yourself. I think it's really a formula of the person times the environment.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

And I think the environment is kind of nebulously defined purposefully for me. Because I think the environment can be things like the weather, it can be things like the coaching staff, it could be the nutritionist, it could be this the physio or the strength coach who has a soft ear. Um, the environment is is wonderfully complicated. So I think human beings really shine when there's this really awesome fit between themselves and the environment. And some of that stuff in the environment we can control and some of it we can't. We just get kind of lucky with.

SPEAKER_00

I think the thing with a lot of these conversations is, you know, ultimately, we you know, I always look through this when I'm when I'm having these conversations, is uh we never know where this is going to land with who. So there's gonna be listeners out there are gonna be walking the dogs or driving to to or from work. You know, what's interesting about podcasts is this, you know, listeners from this are all over the world. Like two percent of I'm in the northwest of England, and two percent of our listeners are in Japan. That's you know, it it it's And that's the but so you don't really know where this is gonna land, or with with who do you? So that's the nice thing. And I think what the whole point of this is to is like you, you know, you've very humbly said, you know, this is your opinion, and but you know, like you opened with you've also got a lot of experience to give of a validity to your opinion. And I think what we you know, hopefully with with the podcast, we're trying to give a 360 view of the same question. We only asked three questions to all guests, and the idea is that you know a listener can get a really good rounded view. So I think that lens I've never no one's ever answered a question like that. And what made me kind of stop and pause was thinking that's a really nice, refreshing way to look at it. So I was actually smiling thinking, oh, that's a really interesting. I guess the the the and I and I think where you went in there, and you know, I'd love to explore around environment where we kind of move into as a leadership possession because that's you know, if that's important. I guess the bit if you're comfortable just kind of leaning into you saying if you're an individual then that can't control all of the environment, you know, from an individual perspective, you know, in your experience with working with the athletic population, what can what can somebody take from that to kind of what within their control, what kind of things could they do to to kind of control themselves to find turn up the best version of themselves?

SPEAKER_01

So, like here's a practical exercise that I think has some merit. If we go with this theory that production is person times environment, then the first exercise is what would make an optimal environment. You know, if you think about like what's it called in planets, right? The Goldilocks theory, where it's like you can you need a planet that's not too cold and a planet that's not too warm, right? So if we're looking for optimal performance, it's like, okay, let's make a list. And then I think what would be if I if I was to walk through a player or a coach or a front office member, and I'm like, let's create an optimal environment. What let's make a list. So first step is let's just brainstorm it. Um, and just to go on a side note for a sec, part of what I try to do, I'm I'm a little bit all over the place. Let me collect my thoughts for a sec. I think the world of sports psychology, executive coaching, whatever, whatever this craft is that we're doing, has a little bit of Wild West to it because anyone can be an advice giver, whether you're a bartender or a barber. Someone's got life advice, they've got life wisdom. And so anyone, and so I try to differentiate my services and my skill set a little bit. One is I try to really come from a place of science and continue growth and learning. The other is through experience, like you were talking about, but I also try to focus less on being an answer guy and more of being a contributed to a contributory element to the environment so that the person can explore both internally and externally what they what they feel like they need to either become unstuck and grow or to be an additive growth element to their process. So bringing it back to the concept of if we were to have a fun exercise, you go, okay, the formula is environment times person equals production. What's an optimal environment for me? So if I'm if you and I are working together, I go, okay, Andy Lake, let's talk about it. What's an optimal environment for you? And then I would say, let's just brainstorm it. No edits, no criticisms, no judgment, just absolutely just blast everything you can on a piece of paper. Once we have that, let's call those kind of like your must-haves. Now let's go the opposite direction. What are all the things that absolutely must be removed from your environment? The toxic elements that could hinder your growth and development. And let's just call that like your must not have list. Then I would say, okay, now that we've got these two lists, can we shift these things? Like, what are your absolute essentials? Like, without this, we are not going to be successful. And what are your desirables? Like, you know, this is preferable, but I could live without it if it doesn't exist in this particular space. So, what would be an absolute essential? Um well, let's try it with you. What would be an absolute essential for you, Andy, if we wanted to get the best version of you?

SPEAKER_00

Good question. It's an environment I would thrive the most in.

SPEAKER_01

Yep. And it's and this is we're talking about an absolute essential. Like if it wasn't there, you would not be able to succeed without it.

SPEAKER_00

Oh wow, that's a really cool question, isn't it? Makes you think deep that straight away, doesn't it? Um for me to perform at my best, I need like this space to think.

SPEAKER_01

So if we were to create an optimal environment for you, yeah, one of the things that you're saying is like, I need a space to think. So is that like an one of those egg chairs, those ten thousand dollar egg chairs that kind of blast omega waves to stimulate thought? Is it a meditation center? What would that look like?

SPEAKER_00

That could just be sitting on a field on my own with just time.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And so you go, okay, well, what's absolutely essential? Is it, you know, a notepad and a pen?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And then you go, okay, now what would be things that would be preferable?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Because I think that's another element, like just to go back to one of your original questions of like, I'm kind of watching in the pro space. It's really hard to win without money.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Like, if if it and I I interact with owners quite a bit. And and one of the things that I kind of say is like, this is not the time to be fiscally responsible. I just I don't know very many teams that are successful that have low budgets. But here's the interesting thing: just because you have a lot of money, it doesn't guarantee that you're going to win. Like, it's not like the team with the most money or the biggest spend gives you that win. So it really becomes where you opt and choose to spend your money. So, could we buy a $10,000 egg chair? We could, but we could also spend five dollars and 95 cents on a pen and a notepad. And if those two things are equal, now we can take the additional $9,995 and put it towards something else. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01

So going back to the exercise and the thought exercise, and again, that's kind of what I try to do with the people that I work with directly, is I try to create an environment, I try to ask meaningful questions that are a little bit more thought-provoking that help them illuminate to a place of clarity where they go, oh, like this is my driver, or this is the kind of stuff that I need. So going back to your list, and I know it's not exhaustive, but right now we've got a place to think. What would be on your toxic list? What you what must you have? Sorry, what must not exist in your universe in order to get the best out of you?

SPEAKER_00

Almost not exist.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Second this enters the system, your system will fail.

SPEAKER_00

I think it's without that. I think it's with when there's a when there's an element of when you don't have the have the opportunity to express your opinion, or you don't have the opportunity to share, or even if it's not asked. You know, I think if it's I think I I don't work well in environments where people tell me what to do.

SPEAKER_01

So going to that, let's assume for a second you're now a center midi, yeah, and we have a coach in our system, our manager, is more of an accountability style where he's really about like, I'm going to set standards and a discipline, and your role as a player coming into my system is about rigidity.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

If you follow my system, I don't want creative play, I don't want inspired play. I just want you to execute as as we trained all week.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

As talented as you are, are you saying that's an absolute deal breaker for you? Or could you find a way to navigate within that system?

SPEAKER_00

I think I can find a way to navigate within that system 100%. I think where I would struggle in that system if someone said, like, you need to do this and then this and this and this. Whereas if if you set some frameworks or boundaries to say these are four rules to work with, but in those rules, there's a trust and accountability that you can do things. I think I would work with well with that.

SPEAKER_01

And so this is where I think the actual essence of this exercise really kicks in and ignites is notice you took a must not item.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And you actually pushed it to, I think I can still navigate it if we were to put some bumpers on it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01

And so you're going like, I could be in a demanding situation as long as they provide me some level of explanation so I understand the rules.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And I think what you're also implying, but you're not suggesting overtly, is not only you have to understand the rules, but the rules have to kind of make sense to you.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

unknown

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. If the coach says, Hey, I want you to light your your your kit on fire, you'd be like, Um, I need to understand why that makes me run faster. And he's like, Well, once you turn the temperature up on your kit, I promise you, you will be running as fast as you've ever ran. You're like, okay, let's do it. So going back to the exercise, it's about understanding an optimal environment to get the highest production, and then really assessing is this the right fit for me? And is this the really the right fit for them? I think something that yields success is when we let a good player go play for someone else because we know they're not going to be great for us. Okay. Yeah. And that's a hard one. Like talking with owners and front office and stuff, is they're like, yeah, but his production at Brighton Hove, his X, Y, Z stats, and his on ball percentage and all these other kinds of things. It's like, yes, all of that is true there, but when we bring him into our world, yeah, are we going to see that get better?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Because if we're not, then we really got to let him stay where he is.

SPEAKER_00

I like that. And it's some of the power that I mean, I was I was just reflecting then, even you putting me through that very short exercise, which which is which is now going to be thought-provoking from a dog walk later, going, I see what is on my lists. Because I think now that that has it's properly resonated, Rico, and I'm really curious about what's on my list. So that's going to be my evening plan. And again, is that so let's say you're working with a player to see if they are right fit, even by them you just holding that space for them to ask those questions. I mean, my my assumption is that's quite helpful because if no one's even given them the thought, let's say you are a talented player, or a talent, you know, or people listening to this, you know, away from sports, if they're very talented an accountant or whatever, and but they're gonna go into a different role, but they're gonna be going into a different position, or like you said, change of clubs, or you're you're a big club and you're gonna sign them for you know, in all elite sport now, they're not going for a few dollars or a few pounds, are they? We're talking tens of millions, you know. Is some of the power actually giving that athlete that awareness for themselves so that they can see what works right for them?

SPEAKER_01

Do you think that or do you think they naturally know that, or is that well, I think an element of this that we didn't get to, and if I was with a player, I would hope that this would be entered into the conversation is control.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

So if I can just so I'm a little bit more knowledgeable for a sec, if I can talk about like the NFL, yeah, there's 32 teams in the NFL. By contrast, there's 500 Fortune 500 companies. That's why 500 is in its title. So if you're a world-class accountant and you want to work for a Fortune 500 company, you have 500 environments to fit in. When you're an NFL player and you want to be in an NFL team, you have 32. Yeah, and then it becomes you know, how many of those 32 are actually eligible? And so the essence of the exercise is also about kind of understanding the limits of control. You know, yes, NFL players, yes, English Premier League players, like they can try to force trades or transitions, they can try to force transfers, they can try to navigate, but like there's also limits to the spaces and the places that they can go to. And then it becomes an interesting mechanism of choice. So once you once you have a clarity of what you think a great environment looks like, then the next quest is how do you find a way to navigate to that place that has as many of those things on your list as possible? I think it's really hard to get everything on your list, on your wish list. And then it becomes, you know, what things can we augment and alter, and what things can we accept? Um, and it's interesting because some things we can live without that we didn't think we could, and some things we can tolerate that we didn't think we could tolerate.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And does that model work? So just thinking about what you were saying there and kind of where my brain's gone to is so you've obviously got an athlete into a team, so it's their individual haves and have nots. And what can they tolerate within an environment or a team environment? But then obviously, there's like the owner, their haves and haves nots in the environment that they're creating, which players will fit into. So, how do you find because there's a balance there, isn't it? To try and find okay, so we need to create an environment where people want to join us and want to play and want to do this, but also there's the environment that an owner may want to have and create. So, where do they is that the where the trade-off kind of sits?

SPEAKER_01

Well, this is gonna be again human behaviors and human interaction are complicated. That's just a fundamental belief of me. Yeah, yeah. So, even to try to approach a question like that is an attempt to simplify something really complicated, but let's just do it for the intellectual exercise. Yeah, just know that um, as we attempt to simplify it, we might lose some of the fidelity or the sophistication that the question really warrants. I find for some owners, they are grabbing a whole bunch of like um like scrabble letters in a bag, right? And they're kind of shaking it up, and then they grab a handful and they throw them on the table and they go, Okay, what words can we make out of this? So what you see is this kind of perpetual dance of roster formation and reconstruction, and then managerial and coaching styles, techniques, and and mechanisms, right? Because there's there's tactics, there's techniques, and then there's style. And you know, it's like tactic is, you know, and technique is all about like, you know, how good's their footwork. Then you've got strategy, like, you know, are we gonna be a ball controlling, you know, are we gonna do more counterattack? I mean, you know, I'm watching the World Cup right now. I don't know if you saw the Netherlands, Japanese, the Netherlands versus Japan game that happened, but it was a brilliant match of two teams with very contrasting styles. And you could see them kind of trying to calibrate between the two styles, right? So sorry, so going back to it, the owner is grabbing the scrabble words, throwing it and seeing what words they can make. And that's what I see. Like, you know, it I think right now the NFL, the average length of an NFL head coach is a little bit under three years. It's like two point something years. Average length of an NFL player is 2.7 years. I think NBA uh average length of a head coach's tenure is two years. So you're having this constant sort of like, again, I don't like these letters. So I'm gonna just toss those letters and grab a whole new, and then it's almost like a level of luck, right? Where it's like some of these owners, they they they happen to spell a 50-point word, you know, it's like, hey, that was a good one. And so I think trying to figure out the quest of making it less lucky, yeah. So how does that work? And I don't know if this scrabble metaphor is landing, I'm just trying to think of an international you've mentioned two perspectives. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, and hopefully they play Scrabble there too, but um albeit with different letters, and so um, so what's interesting, right, is like when you lock certain variables in, so again, going back to the Scrabble exercise, you pull some some tiles out of the bag, and you go, ooh, like the letter T and the letter A, that can really work in a lot of spaces. And you go, okay, let's hold on to those. So, again, if we're gonna grab seven tiles, and now we've got two that we really think can be foundational. Now we go, okay, now what letters complement T and A a lot? H. H is kind of a unique letter, but man, it really goes well with T because you can now start to do things like, you know, if you've got H A T, now you've got hat. But if you add an O, now all of a sudden you can go O A T H, now we've got O. So it becomes this idea of like, oh, what kinds of things are foundational pieces? So sometimes I find, and this is why I think ownership matters so much in the pro space. Owners that really know who they are and what they believe in, they tend to hire people that align with their values and their conviction. Okay. And then those people end up hiring people, and then those people end up hiring people, and then those people end up hiring people. And before you know it, you have an organization that has a waterfall or a casting effect of that ownership's value system. And that's where I think things get kind of cool.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I can see that. I can see that. And again, okay. So if there isn't an owner who has got that, then it becomes a lot more complicated. And I'm sure that makes your your life a bit more complicated.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I think it becomes a really interesting puzzle to solve and to engage with, yeah, is to you know have an interaction with an owner and say, hey, you know, tell me your story. How did you go about buying this team? Why did you buy this team? What is it that you want to accomplish? You know, some owners, and I'm not trying to vilify owners, far from it. I'm trying to really applaud them, but some owners, you know, will engage with the team like it's a hobby, you know, almost like, hey, I've bought a yacht. And I like to invite all my friends over to come hang out on the yacht and and talk about us going on an adventure on a yacht. And they're like, so I bought this team because I thought it'd be really cool to hang out and engage with folks, and it'd be, you know, kind of a status symbol in my in my you know, my library of valuable things. Others I see having a really neat relationship. Um, there was an owner with an NFL team that I worked for. And one of the things I asked before I joined a team is if I can spend a day with the owner, if it's possible. And I just, I'm like, hey, tell me your story. And this owner was telling me about how he grew up, and every Saturday his parents would take him to a college football game. And that was a very familial experience for him feeling a part of something. He felt a part of his family, he watched his father engage.

unknown

He

SPEAKER_01

Got to celebrate and he got to mourn with his dad with every victory and failure. But he also ended up talking about like kind of like the community of the stadium, where he was like, you know, I he told a story about being eight years old and high-fiving a stranger and his dad kind of saying that was okay. And he's like, Where else would everybody be okay with me just high-fiving? Like you go to a grocery store and a guy tries to high-five you, it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. And so it was kind of neat because what he was saying was, I want to create an experience that recreates the experience I had when I was eight years old. And that's the decision linchpin that I find a lot of his decisions when it comes to hiring a GM, when it comes to hiring a head coach, he's looking for people who can create an environment that the eight-year-old self can high-five, some random stranger about.

unknown

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01

So what's interesting, sorry, if this if I'm rambling, please go. Um, what's interesting is this owner has built an amazing stadium. And not only does their stadium house the football team, it houses soccer or sorry, football, American football and European football. It houses um Formula One racing, it houses tennis. I mean, he isn't created just an arena, he's created essentially a sport complex.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Now their team, the NFL team, has not has sort of waxed and waned in its level of success. But the experience, the fan experience, is enduring.

SPEAKER_00

So he's they that memory of being an eight-year-old is every decision is being how do I how do I almost share that with everybody else?

SPEAKER_01

That's my theory, and that's why he keeps kind of expanding. So some would say, Hey, you know, you're all over the place. Why don't you just focus on one thing and let's create a really good NFL team? And he's going, Well, wait a minute, like if we're gonna have a fan experience, we can have a fan experience across five different sports in the same arena, and that's what he's done.

SPEAKER_00

I I guess, and it sounds like when you were telling that story, that certainly I could see you almost enjoyed that environment. I felt that that he seems quite well connected. I got the I got the the the vibe that his scrabble pieces spelt a few words, or he knew at least what he was gonna do with the scrabble pieces. I guess where does your role sit with owners that maybe don't? How are you uh is there an opportunity to challenge that and kind of if for the good of the team?

SPEAKER_01

Um I don't think I don't think that's my role to challenge it. Yeah, and and I think to challenge something comes with a preconceived notion that you believe there is some element of right or wrong there.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

And I think part of where I have a tendency to go in the nature that I try to do in the space that I try to sit in is I think about like the origin of psychology is philosophy, you know. Human beings are kind of neat, right? Like we think about things, we think about thinking, and then we think about our thoughts about our thinking, you know. So so what I try to do is I just try to better understand, yeah. If this is what your value is, and if this is what's going, and and I without judgment or without challenge, but I will say, you know, like what are the strengths of that thought? What are some inherent challenges that come with that thought? How old, you know, if if you held on to that thought for a hundred years, sorry, let me see if I can phrase this. If I were to ask you a hundred years from now, would that thought still be relevant with it for you? Is there anything that would cause you to want to alter or edit that thought? If that thought actually produced losing, would you still want to hold on to it even though it was counterproductive?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I just find like when people and like the expression that we use sometimes here in the United States, and maybe it's relevant universally, is like, you know, would you die on that hill? Would you fall on that sword? So I know that I'm at core principles and core values when people say to me, like, I don't care if we lose the next 20 games, as long as we're still holding true to this idea or this concept.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah. And I guess that's what my intention behind the would you challenge, I think you articulated a lot better than I did. No, yeah, no, but that's what I meant. It's like, because you know, there's if you can, you know, in your experience, if you can see there's a misalignment between what the environment he's trying to create and actually what maybe what they've got, you know, how to do that. But I think that kind of almost seek to understand, ask more questions and kind of ask some deeper questions, you know, like you said.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, well, I think like I remember there was this great quote from Henry Ford where he said, like, you know, if I asked what people wanted, they would have said faster horses, you know, not a car. And so I think sometimes when I'm trying to sit in the space, you know, I'll be like, hey, what do you want? And they'll say winning. They they always, you know, like they always say that. And then it's like, well, but why do you want to win?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

What does winning do for you? And so again, like going back to this owner that we're talking about, is like he was trying to recreate a warm memory for others to experience. So his winning wasn't about like, you know, being able to pound his chest, or you know, it wasn't it wasn't about holding a trophy in front of millions of people, it was people in his in his arena, in his stadium, being able to high-five one another. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Takes a while to get there, though. Takes a while to get to that moment, or yeah, to get to that kind of insider truth. Very like, very rarely do people go, yeah, like I just want to build a legacy.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Though I do find legacy to be a common theme because most owners are of a generation where they're starting to reflect on their time on this planet. And it's sort of like when I'm gone, well, how will people remember me or how will I be remembered? kind of thing. Okay. So so I do sometimes see legacy as is one of those concepts that comes up a lot.

SPEAKER_00

How do you find the balance between obviously what where does it sit between like your role moving from like an individual player all the way through to that? Because I guess that's there's quite a shift, isn't there? I guess, in in the difference of conversation. How do you find that?

SPEAKER_01

Um, yeah, it's a really good question. I I stumbled upon this by accident. I mean, what's interesting was, and you you kind of started this interview with with my aunt resume, and it is, it's a long resume, and I'm proud of a lot of the things that I've done and the people that I've gotten to work with. Um still makes me sound old, which I'll take. I'd rather be old than dead, but um but but where I think I was going with that is like um I stumbled upon this when I first was introduced to this field, it wasn't that much of a thing. Like it existed, but there wasn't a lot of people doing it. Now it's a lot more popular, it's really grown. I mean, most most teams have somebody in their system. What I find to be unfortunate, so this is always kind of like a good and bad sort of thing, is like I love the fact that the industry has grown. I regret the fact that there is not a specific career path of education or training.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

If I wanted to be a dentist or if I wanted to be a cardiologist, there's a very clear path of what you study in college, what you study at medical school, and what boards you have to pass in order to be able to do that craft. But when it comes to the sports psych space, you can come from different departments of education. You know, you can come from the psychology department, you can come from the or uh business leadership department, you can come from Department of Education, like there's a bunch. And then same, like when it comes to graduate school training, there's a wide variety, and then it becomes licensure and certifications and stuff. So I find what we've done as far as a profession is we've really confused the market. And we talked about this earlier, but anyone can be an advice giver, a butcher, a bartender, a baker, a candlestick maker. Like, and what's nice about the human condition is people love to give their opinions. Like, hey, do you like my hairstyle? Like ask five people, they'll happily tell you what they think about your hair. And some people are happy to tell you what they think about your hair without you even asking.

SPEAKER_00

That's what I've got into actually. Yeah, I was gonna say, people just give advice without even permission. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, I know some practitioners, and no disrespect to them, but I know some practitioners that not only will they give like a really sharp bit of advice, but then they'll be like, You're welcome. And it's like, uh, I wasn't asking for that guidance. And I'm not exactly sure I like what you said. Yeah, and I'm definitely not really inclined to thank you for it as if you've done me some favor. Like it's almost a really weird source of narcissism. So what I stumbled on to, narcissism, let me talk about me. Um, what what I stumbled on to was like the first pro team I worked for, part of what they hired me to do was to be a resource to the head coach, the GM, and the team president.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

And I said, if I report to any one of those individuals or anyone on the org chart that reports to one of those individuals, I'm not sure how much I can contribute to the other folks. So if I report to the team president, at what point does the GM wonder what kind of information gets flown to the team president?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I'm stunned. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So I said to the first pro team, if we're gonna do this, I think I should report to ownership. And when they asked why, and I gave them the explanation I just gave you, they said, that makes sense. Let's do that. So, what I have found is everywhere I've been, I think I'm now with I've been with um eight professional teams across three leagues. Um, and then, like you mentioned, a couple in the NCAA space as well, three in the NCA space. Um, where I sit on the org chart is either this like N of one with a dotted line to a bunch of things, or I report directly to ownership kind of element. And the advantage of that is sorry, this is such a long-winded way to get your answer to the question. The benefit of that is I can help anyone in the organization, from a player to the front office to the support staff to the head coach, anyone, anyone that I'm in front of, like um one of the owners that I work for currently, I said, Hey, I could use a little bit of job clarity. And he said, help whoever's in front of you. And I said, In what way? He goes, in whatever way they need it. Whether it's a mental health kind of thing, emotional distress, if it's an optimization kind of thing, like, hey, how do I become the best version of myself? Or if it's a human interaction kind of thing, like culture, you know, how do we how do we lead people? What kind of message should we deliver to the to the group at team meetings? That kind of stuff. And I so I like that. The disadvantage of having this sort of like outside the org chart flow is I get left out of meetings and emails all the time. Because a lot of times just for efficiency, they're like, hey, I'll just shoot director of basketball ops, this group email, and I already have my emails identified as director of basketball ops. Well, I'm not in basketball ops, so that email doesn't come to me. So sometimes from a workflow, that's the disadvantages, you know. Um, when people who are trying to juggle the complexities of systems, and it's like, well, where does he sit on the airplane? Does he sit with the front office? Does he sit with the coaches? Does he sit with the players? Does he even sit on the airplane? Does do we throw him in the wing? Do we throw him in the loo? Like, you know, yeah. So so those kinds of details come sometimes become more complicated than they need to be.

SPEAKER_00

But I think there's some real true insights there. I mean, uh and and and it's interesting, isn't it? Because if you are and it'd be people listen to this whose responsibility is to kind of to be the the soundboard or the you know the person that's there to support people. But like you've said, there's always that well, who who are they gonna tell? Whereas what we you know, what I picked up from you is well, you you what you kind of the way you've positioned yourself on the organization chart, you come across as neutral.

SPEAKER_01

Try to, yeah, right. What's also but it's hard sometimes. Oh, yeah, can I control right? Yeah, yeah. So I think sometimes it's even for us as the providers, uh I always encourage us of early career professionals is just be aware, be aware of your own bias, you know, and you know, whether you like someone or dislike someone, like again, we're we're human beings too, so just be aware as you enter the space in what ways you alter the space.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah. And the other thing I took from that is I think that the the element around advice, isn't it? You know, there's you know, it's very easy to give advice, isn't it? I always turned around to it's also very it's very easy to choose to ignore it as well, though. This is my my often the thing of going, you know, my famous line I used is I really appreciate you taking the time to tell me about it, but if it's all right, I'm gonna choose to ignore it.

SPEAKER_02

That's cool.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, because but for that for the reason being it was unsolicited, it was just you know what you should you know what you should do, don't you?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I don't I mean I what I find to be beautiful, and I say this with like a smile, like it's uh beautiful garbage in a way, is like the level of conviction that I've heard some people give advice with the small amount of knowledge that they know.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And I'll like here would be a goofy example, not quite professional example, but goofy one is um earlier in my career, I remember I went home for a vacation, and my old mates from high school, we all decided to go have a uh a drink at a bar. And like a lot of friends do, we got into a healthy discussion about a particular coach, right? And his decision making, who he should have started. And so I'm listening to them, and they're like, Oh, yeah, you know, Coach X should have started player Y, it's a no-brainer. I don't know why he benched, like the whole thing. And I was listening, listening, listening. And finally I said, Hey, you know, I work for that team, which was true, and they didn't know because I don't really like I don't really walk around with like a written on my forehead. I was like, Yeah, I don't really wear a lot of like I don't wear a lot of gear recreationally. I wear gear when I'm in the in the building just to kind of like blend in. Um, because if you walk in, they think you might be an agent or something, you know, or a suit, you know, you walk in with a suit. It's like, is that who's that guy? But um, so I try to blend as much as I can. But anyways, so going back to the story, I go, you know, I work with that team, and you would have thought that they would have said, So are we right? Like they just said, Well, why don't you tell Cole Jacks to play that guy? That's how convicted they were in how he should have managed the game. Yeah, and they actually got mad at me for not telling to do exactly what they thought he should do.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, brilliant. Yeah, I love it. And and again, it's why we all love sport, isn't it? Because it's you know, it's it's it doesn't matter where you are in the world sport, that everyone's got an opinion and they don't mind sharing it over a beer with the friends and stuff, which the best is like you get into a like a you get like in an Uber or a taxi cab or something, right?

SPEAKER_01

And they it's it's a also a very universal thing to talk about. Yeah, it's like so again, just because we've got the draft coming up, and you know, I'm working for a team that's got a lottery pick, and it's one of those things where everybody's like, so it'd be one thing if they said, Who's your team gonna take? Which of course it's like I'm not telling you because it's like that information sacred, but it's when they say, Hey, you know who your team should take? Like, okay, I mean, I thank you for your opinion, you know.

SPEAKER_00

I love that it's fun, I love that. I I'm conscious of time. So, what we're gonna do is we're gonna start wrapping up. Um, I you know, you are one of those individuals I probably could spend another hour talking to, but I appreciate you're a busy man, so I won't, I'm not gonna take another hour every time, I promise. Don't worry.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, that's sweet. Thank you for saying that.

SPEAKER_00

So just wrapping up, if we're thinking about the kind of conversations that we've had, and that you know, the kind of listeners are you know, we get we get a good variety, we got a lot of people from elite sport, we've got in performance, we've got a lot of leaders, a lot of founder-based business owners, and we actually have quite a lot of athletes that do listen. So you can answer this question wherever it feels appropriate for you to go with it. But what th you know, from the kind of conversation today and your experience around unlocking potential, what would three practical things that people could try today?

SPEAKER_01

Three practical things to unlock your potential. Am I in the right environment? Kind of circling back on that subject that we went and addressed. Yeah, number two. I hear a lot of times people talk about following your passion. I'm not so sure I would agree with that. I think the real secret to potential and unlocking it is competency.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

So I it's easier said than done. Like, hey, just be competent. It's sort of like, well, what leads to that? So where I think passion impacts competency is if you love something, you're more likely to engage with it for a longer period of time, and then ultimately you would get better. So time on task.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So I think of passion as the things that get me out of bed, like the things that I love. I also think of purpose, which is a little bit more selfless, like these are the things that I do for others.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And then I think about competency, which is sort of like, you know, I'm right-handed. Now, if the nature of the task is left-handed, there's a competency issue there. Now, could I eventually get my left hand functional? Maybe, but there's a gap there. So I think if if number one is are you in the right environment, number two is are you competent? Do you have the right kinds of pieces to be successful in this domain? And and I know that kind of circles back to well, what's what is the right environment? But so I'd say like maybe number two is this level of competency folded with uh follow your passion, follow your purpose, you know, and follow also what you're good at. Number three. Um don't drink expired milk. And I think what I mean by that would also be like, I mean, I don't know, I was just trying to be funny, but I think what I would also mean is like knowing when to peel away from something might be just as valuable as knowing what to go towards.

SPEAKER_00

I like that. Yeah. Yeah. And the other thing for the environment piece for me is is either the environment you're in or the environment you created, depending on where you are in your career. You know, think about that. So I do like that. Yeah. What principle do you wish every leader understood?

SPEAKER_01

I want to give credit where credit's due. Um, there's this guy, John Levy, who just wrote a book called Team Intelligence. And in there he said something that really resonated with me, where he said the one universal. The truth of all leaders and leadership is that people are willing to follow them. Which I go, God, it's so brilliantly simple. Or so simply brilliant. But he goes one step further and he sort of says, like, the real question is, is why do people follow you? And he concludes, and this also resonated with me, that the reason people will follow you is because they believe that you will make their lives better in some way, shape, or form. So you don't have to be an intelligent leader, you don't have to be a competent leader, you don't have to be a spiritual leader, you don't have to be an emotionally intelligent leader or any of these other kinds of things. All you have to do is ensure that the person that's following you believes that your life, their life will be better because they follow your direction. And the reason why I think that resonated so much with me is I've seen really talented individuals in leadership roles, like coaches, lose the locker room. And once they lost the locker room, it was over.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it's done.

SPEAKER_01

And how you get people to believe that you're making their lives better, I think is where the magic is. And that's complicated too.

SPEAKER_00

I was gonna say that's where the come that's where we circle back to all humans are complex, and actually it's a really complex question, isn't it? Yeah. No, um it's nice though. So just to kind of wrap it up, if people are interested, where can they find you and follow you? Well, I guess obviously.

SPEAKER_01

Why would they follow me? I guess if they believe I'll make their lives better somehow. But um, you know, so for me personally, I do not have like a website or anything. I you know, I've never really marketed myself. Yeah, I've been very, very fortunate to have been sort of found by individuals that have hired me because a conversation like this resonates with them in some way, shape, or form. So I'm trying to think of like what's a forum. Like, I don't really even check, like, I don't check LinkedIn very regularly or any of that kind of stuff. But I mean, I guess you could find me on LinkedIn. The one place that I can promise people can get to me is through the AIQ. And that is something I'm really proud of, what we developed as a group. Uh, Jim, Adam, Jonathan, you know, Matt, I mean, I could list the Eli, like there's a bunch of people that have really made the AIQ something special. Um, and if you go to the AIQ.team, that's our website, um, there's places where you can reach out and contact me through there, or you can also figure out what the AIQ is and how it might benefit whatever it is in the space that you're building. I can promise you this when you talk about the person in the environment, knowing how they process the game, which is what AIQ does, it definitely helps you identify if it's a good fit.

SPEAKER_00

No, definitely. And I'm from spending some time with you know, with Adam on and looking at that and having some conversations. I definitely think if you are in that space, then it would definitely do. And again, all the links will be in the show notes for people to just easily click on it. Um, and is that the is that the plan? Is that what's next? Or is there any other is it developing that and moving that and growing that side of the business? Oh, for me personally, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So um I'm kind of a curious explorer. Like, I'm that guy, like if you were to say, Hey Scott, you want to come on over to England and spend a week, I'd probably go do that. And I don't even know if I would ask a whole lot of additional questions. Like if you're like, hey, Scott, come on over, like we'll have some fun, we'll meet some people, it'll be it'll be a neat adventure. I'd be like, all right, yeah, like, you know, let's go. Uh I I've always I've always done that throughout my life. Um, been a curious explorer. Uh, one thing I do do with leaders is I try to identify like a personal mission statement. So again, like what's your North Star? And mine is I just want to do cool stuff with cool people. So whatever's next for me is generally based off that that rubric. If it's a cool project, and if it's a um if it's a cool project, and if it's with really engaging, interesting, fascinating people, I'm in.

SPEAKER_00

I love that. I love that. What a great enough star to have so just before just before we close off, one final challenge that you could set the audience, what would it be? Final challenge? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Trying to think, that's a good question. What would I challenge your audience? With this amount of space, I almost feel like I have to say something really profound. That empty silence and nothing coming to I I don't really know how I challenge individuals. Um I guess the thing is I would say, um, well, here's something that's kind of on my mind. Um, and I don't know if this is a challenge or not, but there's just something that gives me a half smile to this that I think hopefully would be a good way to land. And this might take a minute. So if you can let me dance for a sec, if that's okay.

SPEAKER_02

Let's go.

SPEAKER_01

When I was 15 years old, um, I went to the Soviet Union uh as a as an interesting experience. I was an ambassador of goodwill and I went to the Soviet Union. And I remember at the age of 15 being very proud to be an American. And one of the benchmark moments was I was having a conversation with a Russian who said, you know, the difference between America and Russia, he goes, You know what the difference between America and Russia is? And I said, No, what? He goes, if your grocery store runs out of strawberries, um, they say come back at three o'clock. If our grocery store runs out of strawberries, um come back in June. And I always felt like, gosh, what an amazing country to have that kind of accessibility and everything. Now you flash forward 15, that was a long time ago, decades ago. Flash forward um a few years ago, I took my family on a trip to South Africa. And like Americans, we went to the grocery store and we loaded up for the entire time we were there. We were there for a few weeks. So we loaded up, like we went to the grocery store and we looked, and people were looking at us like, what are you? I mean, like, what are you doing? And and I remember, like, you know, we bought bacon and you know, deli meat, just stuff like that, bread. All of it went bad in three days. And the reason why is like, and I don't mean to be political here, but in America, like the food industry has changed in really significant ways. Like it's meant for shelf storage and things like that. So the taste is down. And so a couple years ago in South Africa, I felt so I went from at 15 being really proud to be an American, to um in South Africa being kind of like embarrassed and ashamed. And like it is interesting. Whenever I go into international space, I find myself apologizing a lot. Like they're and not to be political, but it's like explain to me Donald Trump, and it's like it's hard, you know? And and you know, this idea of like make America great and having this sense of patriotism, like we're the best country in the world. When it's like, I don't know, because the food in South Africa was amazing, and the it was fresh and it was flavorful and it was nutritious, and I just felt different when I ate it. And so a few years ago, it was this full spectrum of like being proud to be an American to now being somewhat like embarrassed or apologetic. And this is challenging. With the World Cup right now, all these folks from all over the world are coming to America, and it seems to me like they're having this really wonderful time embracing the things that are so bizarre about our country. So, what's kind of neat about social media like TikTok and all that is you're watching people, like there's this guy, I think he's like Freddie from Germany, who's gone viral right now, because he's he's talking about going to like you know, Bucky's, which is a gas station here, but it's not like any gas station you've ever seen. And and and people like um, again, going back to the Japan-Netherlands game that was filmed in uh that that sorry was um at the Dallas Cowboys Stadium. The announcers are going, this is the most amazing stadium I've ever seen. Like the the scoreboard is the largest TV screen, you know, and so I'm finding a sense of joy in people kind of enjoying a wide variety of aspects of this international flavor, like, why is there so much ice in your soft drinks? And what is an in-and-out burger? And and and so I think, and this is why it's long-winded because it's so half-baked, but the idea of recognizing that human beings are complicated, human interaction is a multiplier of complexity, and rather than be xenophobic and just assuming that what else is not me is bad, you know, kind of thing, that I'm watching people enjoy the diversity of this planet. So I think the thing that I might try to land on for your audience is to step out of your comfort zone, eat at a restaurant that you've never eaten at, engage in a conversation with someone you might not normally talk to, find the differences and see about comparing the flavors, not judging them, but comparing them. And then again, going back to like Freddie from Germany, I think one of the things that he discovered was ranch, which is like a you know, it's a salad dressing. Right. And he's going, Who told me that? Like, I had no idea ranch was so amazing, you know, and it's like, I don't know, there's just something so beautiful about that. Um, there's this guy, David Chang, he's a world-class chef, and he wrote this brilliant article called The Unified Theory of Deliciousness. And what he said is like there are certain flavors that that are just universal, they're just called different things. So, like, if I were to say, let's talk about fermented cabbage, well, if you're German, you would think we're talking about sauerkraut, but if you're Korean, you would think we're talking about kimchi. But there's still the same kind of essence of a soured, kind of crunchy sort of food bite.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So I think the thing that I would love to challenge, and what I think is super cool about this conversation, like again, you're you're in northern England, which is a beautiful part of the world. I'm in Michigan, in the United States right now. And the fact that we get to have this conversation, and there are certain things that we align to, and certain things that I think we learn as outside of our space. Yeah, I think that's the challenge to give to the audience is to go be curious explorers and have a meal or have an engagement with something that is so outside your comfort zone that it expands your mind and your Freddie discovering ranch in Alabama.

SPEAKER_00

What a phenomenal way to end. Awesome. No, I think I think I love it, absolutely love it.

unknown

Dr.

SPEAKER_00

Scott Goleman, thank you ever so much. I've loved this conversation. I really, really do appreciate you.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, thank you. That was thank you for creating an optimal environment. So hopefully we had a productive conversation. Thank you. It was lovely, thank you ever so much.