When Aging Parents Refuse Help: How Aging Life Care Can Save Families

What happens when aging parents need help, but don’t want it?

In this episode of For Mature Audiences Only, Mary Shapiro and Shannon Johnson speak with Annette Murphy, Executive Director of Spring Point at Home, about one of the most misunderstood resources in elder care: Aging Life Care.

This conversation explores:
 • How families become overwhelmed and stuck
 • Why unbiased guidance matters
 • The emotional toll of caregiving
 • Long-distance caregiving risks
 • When to seek help before crisis strikes

If you’re caring for an aging parent or supporting a loved one, this episode offers clarity, strategy, and reassurance.

For Mature Audiences Only is a podcast dedicated to real conversations, honest stories, and practical guidance for families navigating caregiving, aging, and senior living.

If this episode resonated with you, follow the show, leave a review, and share it with someone who may need support.

Presented by Archer Law Office https://archerelderlaw.com

Music provided by MIBE https://mibemusic.com/

Transcript

The Problem: Parents Who Refuse Help

Shannon 0:02

What happens when aging parents need help but don't want it?

Mary 0:05

I'm Mary Shapiro, joined by my co-host, Shannon Johnson. And today on For Mature Audiences Only, we're pulling back the curtain on one of the most misunderstood parts of elder care: aging life care.

Shannon 0:19

Our guest today is Annette Murphy, Executive Director of Springpoint at Home, a nonprofit organization that helps families navigate caregiving, home care, medical decisions, placement, and family conflict without kickbacks, pressure, or sales tactics.

Meet Guest Annette Murphy

Mary 0:33

If you're caring for an aging parent, supporting a long-distance loved one, or feeling overwhelmed by what comes next, this episode will change how you think about elder care. This is For Mature Audiences Only, presented by Archer Law Office. Let's get started.

Shannon 0:50

Joining us today is Annette Murphy. Annette is the executive director of Springpoint at Home, a nonprofit home care and aging life care practice in New Jersey. With over 30 years in health care, she is a fellow of the Aging Life Care Association and owes a Master of Social Work and Gerontology from Mercers University. Her experience spans geriatric care, management, long-term care, and rehab settings along with dementia programming and teaching as an adjunct professor. She is a licensed clinical social worker and a certified advanced case manager. Let's welcome to the show, Annette Murphy. Annette, thank you so much for joining us today on our podcast. Could you please share with us what your current role is and how you got to this point in your career?

Annette 1:32

I'm the executive director for Springpoint at Home, and we're a nonprofit that provides aging life care and our separate business line of home care. It's a long story of how I got to where I am, but essentially my entire career, I have been a licensed clinical social worker who specialized in family studies and gerontology from my undergraduate all the way through. And I've worked in every level of healthcare from long-term care, brain injury rehab, support groups, community work to what I love now, because of now ties together all of those previous experiences.

What Aging Life Care Advisors Do

Shannon 2:07

We were speaking a little bit before about, you know, one of your roles as a case manager. Could you explain exactly what a case manager is and kind of what that role entails?

Annette 2:16

Yes. I will use the term sometimes interchangeably, but primarily aging life care advisor, because the term care manager is not trademarked. Aging life care advisor, you can only call yourself that if you've met certain professional credentialing, certified care management, and if you're part of that organization. So I use that very carefully because we used to be called in the organization gerator care managers. We found that in assisted living, home health aids are called care managers. Intake schedulers and home care call themselves care managers. So the term doesn't have the same gravitas. So aging life care really means you have a master's level individual or someone that has many years of supervised experience as a professional in healthcare, experts in aging, and are part of that organization. So that's why all of my team are members, and I will use that term more preferably than Director Care Manager.

Shannon 3:12

Great. So how big is the current team that you do and kind of what are their roles within your team? What's the functions of everyone?

Annette 3:18

Yeah, so we have seven care managers. Wow. If they're not already certified, they're in that process of becoming certified care managers because you have to be supervised and you have to sit for a test, much like other credentialing. Out of those seven, we have an RN care manager. We have folks who have gerontology background, clinical social work background, and we have one person whose background was in healthcare administration and therapeutic rec. So I used to traditionally just hire master's level social workers. But over time, um, by sitting on the national board with aging life care, my eyes were open to more pathways to this as well as diversity in our team, that it really balances those peer reviews and case consultations when I have folks who are still meeting that professional criteria, but they come at it from a slightly different.

Mary 4:08

They're coming from different ends of the spectrum. So it is exactly.

Annette 4:12

And it really enriches our client experience to have those dialogues. So great.

Shannon 4:17

So let's speak about the client experience. What I was getting at was you have a lot of resources on your team for said clients. Yes. So, you know, what is either the kind of perfect client that you guys would be looking for? What kind of person would you say needs your services?

Who Needs These Services

Ethics And No Kickbacks

Annette 4:33

I usually say there are about five kind of red flags that referral sources see. And some of them fit into what I call packages because sometimes for clients, it's much like when you go on vacation, it's easier to say, like, I want this or that and bundled it. It's all under the guise of age and life care, but it's sometimes that's easier. So I'll start with that. Um we talk about our solo elders, and solo elders can be folks who don't have any family, or they have family, but they're estranged from them, or their family are frail or elderly, or have other reasons they can't serve in a traditional capacity for support. So that is one set service. And we, you know, have many clients that we serve on a limited basis. Well, I say many, but I do. I usually take them for healthcare proxy. Um, carefully vetted out. It's not for everyone, but there are those individuals that don't have family to serve in that capacity and they're willing to engage with us in that longer-term relationship so that we really know them. Because we won't serve unless I really know them well. Sure. Keep fully updated so that if something happens, we know their heart, we know their mind, we know how that's maybe changed and evolved over time. So there's that one bucket. Other clients come to us for what I call our safe landing package. Those are clients who only want to engage with us for a short time. They're transitioning where they need to move to a new facility, to a new home. They're moving into one of our Springpoint buildings. We're often used in that way for someone who's coming into the building and struggling in whatever capacity. So that's another way that we're used. And for that, we bundle 10 hours, we give a very reduced rate for those 10 hours. And then if they want to engage later, which many do because they then see the benefit, we continue on after that. So much like move managers, some people Google or they look move managers, we compliment each other in many ways. The main difference is in aging life care, the code of ethics requires that we not accept any kickbacks or referral fees. So while we love that. Yeah. Yes, exactly. Yes. So while some the biggest question we get, because we're part of a larger organization with Spring Point, is if someone needs placement, do they need to stay within Spring Point? Absolutely not. Our code of ethics for aging life care as well as a code of ethics of NESW and social work is such that it is whatever's in the best interest of the client. So whether it's placement or on the home care side, we have many clients who have other home care agencies. Sure. Um, because either we didn't have who they needed for that time and we make the referral, or they came to us with someone they trust and it works well. It's always what's in the best interest for that client. So if they're looking at a portfolio, the misnomer people think, oh, if I'm doing placement, you know, you're gonna look at Spring Point buildings. We often put that in the portfolio, obviously, because we're one of the few that has the life plan communities. And if that's what works for that person, we have a couple clients recently, they just needed to go straight into a larger memory care where they could avail themselves of the larger facility that just did memory care. But yeah, that's um a little bit about how that works.

Shannon 7:48

I just love what you said about the not taking any kickbacks or anything like that. Our firm operates the same way. And like you said, it's truly in the best interest of what the client wants to do, even if Mary, I might think maybe you should go here versus here. But if it's what they choose and what they feel is best for them, yeah. Right.

Mary 8:06

There's no incentive. It's whatever they choose and what is best for the client. Yeah. And ethically and all around. Yeah.

Annette 8:14

And sometimes there's things you have to go outside the traditional box. Right. So the perfect example I would give is that those who give kickbacks, obviously, they have the money to do so, right?

Mary 8:25

Yes.

Handling Family Conflict

Annette 8:25

And I have, I think, of two clients in this last year where they're within limited means and the family members paying our fees. And in the long-term best interest for them was looking at things that most even social workers don't know about, like the veterans' foster homes or private rest homes. And we've placed individuals there where they're in a smaller, very low-cost environment where they needed to be in a family environment that was better for their personality, their style, and their income. So those aren't ones that any placement folks, because they're not, they don't have to pay people to bring business to them. So that's yeah, it's a good example. Um, you asked me for other ones. I know I mentioned solo elders. I mentioned those folks who were looking for the safe landing. Another one that comes to us a lot are ones where individuals have been given resources and they haven't been able, for whatever reason, to avail themselves of it. So I think of myself when I worked as a social worker in brand rehab or in discharge planning. I would see folks who came back a time and again. You'd had long family meetings and discussions about options and what was needed. And for whatever reasons, it didn't move forward. So the beauty and the reward for us on our team is that we're not seeing folks for just a moment in the hospital or in the rehab or at our office. We're able to follow them wherever they go and wherever they are and really have those conversations in those meaningful, teachable moments. And it doesn't mean we have some magic wand that we make people do something or change, but it means that over time with that relationship, things can be heard perhaps differently. So, because of that, referral sources and other partners and other social workers, when they get what we do, they'll refer those folks to us and they'll say, This person, I've seen them come three times through this rehab and things just aren't really changing. There's a lot of hospitalizations, a lot of falls. Is there something more you can do? Or they'll notice there's some really challenging family dynamics. And again, while we don't have that magic wand, that training in mediation and family conflict and being able to be a neutral person. Right. That is another top referral for us. So many times we have clients who have mental health challenges or estranged family members, or on the opposite side, you've got family members who say, Why do I need you? I'm so smart. I know everything. I work in this field, I'm an attorney, I'm a doctor, I'm a social worker. I can tell you that many of us, aging life care advisors, including myself, hire other aging life care advisors. We believe in it that much for our own family. Because sometimes you need someone who's not emotionally in the middle, right? He's not a family member.

Motivational Interviewing In Practice

Shannon 11:20

Could not agree more with that. Yeah, that's absolutely. You're making this really easy because that was my next question. I was, I was, I was segueing into how we deal with the we've all dealt with the families are in crisis mode a lot of times. Is that what you guys find? A lot of your clients are coming to you in a situation where they they don't even know where to begin and kind of where to start. Yes. And you guys kind of come in, do your discovery. And so how do you deal with situations where let's say a family or um the person receiving care doesn't necessarily want to listen to what you have to say?

Annette 11:52

Yeah, that's a really good question. So in social workers, what we call motivational interviewing. It's staying where the client is at. So it is um a challenging skill to develop, right? But it's really a clinical skill to develop where the family who comes is part of the client system, right? So they might be paying the bill and they have a very set idea about what mom or dad should do. So there's some caregiver coaching that goes along. And the main thing is staying focused on the client. So the client is the elder themselves. And oftentimes they're at odds with what the building they live in wants, their family wants, their neighbor. So many competing values of what the care plan should look like. So a lot of it is really staying focused on what that client wants. And motivational interviewing is gauging where you're at. Some clients we go and they're already figuring out and they're already over here, they just haven't expressed that to everyone else. Others are as stuck as the family or others perceive them to be, and they really don't want what others are suggesting. So it's it's gauging and working with that person where they're at and trying to really active listening and figure out, okay, if you don't want to do this thing that your daughter wants to do, let's say, for example, why? Let's dig a little deeper. Of is it fear of change? Is it needing some more information about what, let's say it's assisted living, what assisted living looks like because you've never even seen one or had a conception of it. What are the triggers for that person? What is keeping them emotionally blocked from hearing the message? So a lot of it is really psychology and social work tools of how all of us tick. Right. All of us. Because if I come to you and I tell you, I need you to go do this and uproot your life and move, you were just like a sudden looking like, Matt, what are you talking about? But if we have a meaningful conversation like you would with a good friend who you really trust, it opens up the gate of, well, maybe I hadn't thought about it that way. Or it defines even further why that person doesn't want that option and helping really have the voice heard. And I love you gave one of the questions prior to this that I I wanted to make sure I said that people often think we're coming in to replace or tell them what to do, or the adult child thinks we're coming to tell their parent what to do. Make them listen to what I want to do.

Mary 14:26

Someone else is the bad guy, right? Not me, quote unquote. Yeah.

Annette 14:29

But it's a partnership to really make sure all voices are heard at the table, but most importantly, that elder and why they're wanting what they're wanting or not. And sometimes there's teachable moments that come. Someone saying no now, but then there's another fall or there's another health crisis, and we revisit those things. I often call it the drip method, works for me as well. That sometimes you just have to keep revisiting some issue and you might change your mind, you might not. Right. But it's looking at something in a new way. It's shifting the perspective.

Mary 15:04

I love what you said about focusing on the client, the elder who may needs the service, because I think so often they're put in the position where everybody is talking about them around them and nobody's really asking them where they're at and kind of getting a gauge of how much do they understand, how much do they know of what's going on and how they're feeling about what's happening. Right. With them, you know, health-wise, and if they do have to change their circumstance or invite help into their home. It's, you know, I love that approach that you have.

Restoring Family Roles And Relief

Annette 15:40

Yeah. And it's hard because you there's multiple dynamics at at play, right? There's a little bit of ingrained ageism in our culture where we say that now that you have a health issue, you're older, someone just needs to treat you like a kid and take care of you, right? There's a little bit of that. There's also a little bit of great intention that families and others love that person so much that they just want to make it easy for them. And then they get locked in this power struggle about what it should be. And for families now Googling things and stuff, it seems like it's oversimplified of what I Googled and I found five places I'm just gonna go look.

Shannon 16:20

Right.

Annette 16:21

Right. And they haven't started with the first basis for me is always you gotta start with where that person is at and emotions, and that there isn't a cookie cutter thing. Or we like honestly, our businesses wouldn't exist, right? There's a reason to have a neutral third party who can really tease out, well, is that the best thing? Because I mean, I could have five clients who all have similar situations, and it is not that the recommendation is automatically, oh yes, you all need to move to this place or have home care or whatever this scenario may be. Because the part I see that's lost sometimes is the uniqueness of the person. And that's I say it all the time, that families hiring us allows them to go back to being the loved one and not coming in as okay, I'm here today, mom I got an hour, two hours, got these tasks to do. Right. And it really shifts the dynamic, right? They don't have to be the taskmaster or the fixer going back to being that son or daughter and removing some of that from them.

Mary 17:32

That's such a tremendous relief for them when your aging life advisors can come in and have those conversations and let family be family.

Shannon 17:41

One of the first things I always try and say to our clients is, you know, I'm looking forward to helping you get some aspect of your life back. Whether that be you spending more time back with your children or, you know, because essentially, you know, the roles in life flip. You know, our parents raise us and, you know, once they get sick and older, you know, it's time for us to then take care of them. They don't want to listen to what you have to say. So there's, you know, there can be a lot of different things to work through. So I think helping them get to the point where they can be even killed, everything is fine, and they can get some of their life back just goes a long way for the entire family as a whole. Yes. For the for the big picture of everything.

Annette 18:17

Yeah. And that's why some people think they have to hire us for the long term. We do have clients we've worked with for 10 years or more. But for many, we're having those initial assessments, family meeting, and we can set out a roadmap and have a discussion of, okay, it may not be all on one adult child or the person who's power of attorney, but um, someone's far away, they can contribute money towards it, or they can contribute support for someone to clean the house. Just looking at it in a more strategic kind of way. And and then they we give them the plan, give them resources, and off they go. And sometimes they come back. Sometimes they're they're perfectly independent with it. But when you said about the reversal rules, it makes me think of the conversations and the conversational contract. So Deb Halasey, if you know Deb Halasi, who does caregiver coaching, she writes the blogs for us, and her book is one that we give out for free to clients because I think it is so pivotal that for families, it's really shifting how you talk to that person because also for your parent the other way around, right? They're always telling you what to do, raising you, worrying about you. They don't want to burden their adult children. We're telling them their fears and worries, yet somehow there has to be a change in how you relate to each other. So that book helps reframe it and also teaching some conversational skills of owning when you're talking with your parent, it's not you need to, it's hey, I feel this way when I see you struggling. And I would love to, and you know, and shifting those simple ways of communication, just the communication of owning. And owning our part in it and owing how we feel, but not everyone's as comfortable with talking about a how they feel or taking accountability for their own response to their parents and their own. And, you know, 'cause sometimes you have to backpack and apologize and like, oh, I didn't realize. I didn't think about that.

Shannon 20:14

Right.

Annette 20:14

Yeah.

Full-Scope Coordination And Monitoring

Shannon 20:15

So with some of your you said you have some clients that have been with you guys for ten plus years. With those clients, are you more so coordinating everything in their lives for them, like their doctor's appointment and their transportation to let's say the senior center? Are you guys that hands-on with with your clients in that aspect?

Annette 20:32

Yes. So we so it depends on the client and where they're at. It can change on a dime on a given day. But for some clients we're simply contracted by like a court order that there was a guardianship proceeding and we need to monitor because the true guardian who was appointed is out of state, let's say and we go to monitor and we just go once a month for an hour. But if we notice something we're going and intervening, right? Other clients we have that we do everything. So everything from the smoke detector on one client went off at 4 a.m and the one car is close by and the live-in aide who's there called her and she went over the police, the fire department, what have you, and is overseeing the snow removal and making sure that before winter all the supplies are there. In that particular case, that you know clients who've been with us 10 years, they start off without having home care. But it's monitoring is a huge part of what we do. Medical management some clients start off where they're managing their own medical or the family is, they're going to the doctor and slowly over time they maybe can't drive. So we help with the driving evals, coaching them through that, talking about the loss and the grief and really touching base with them we have one right now where the care manager said, oh, it's painful because they still haven't accepted that they can't drive yet you set up other services and grief looks grief is grief, right? Absolutely. So in that those cases, they're doing everything from finding new doctors, getting second opinions, driving them literally if they're safe in our cars to those doctors, getting the questions families might have in the room. Again, it's getting voices heard. So saying hey the son has this question, we have this question, what do you think? And after every visit, there's an encrypted email that goes out to whoever the is the central people for that client to tell them this is what happened and getting buy-in again of well, this is what we recommend as professional, what do you all think is the next step? So everything from estimates on the house stuff that's happening to medical to moving people to buying clothing because they've lost weight.

Shannon 22:41

It really is so it really is everything from so comprehensive.

Annette 22:46

Yeah. And it's really driven by what works for that client. So if for that client it's more cost effective to have the son's secretary order clothes, great. We're just letting the needs be known and saying how do we want to facilitate it?

Shannon 23:00

Right. You're that resource that they need to be able to, you know, live their day-to-day lives. And I think that's a great benefit. I didn't even think about you know someone if the adult child is out of state but let's say you know mom's let's say in Monroe this is number 55 plus communities they don't want to leave their home they could get your services and kind of you know still be able to keep in hand on what mom and dad is doing over here but also know that they're being taken care of from from A to Z in all regards.

Why Eyes On Home Beat Phone Calls

Annette 23:26

Yeah right because the phone, I can't say it enough and I've experienced this in my own life with my mother-in-law who who recently passed this year with dementia. If you've got someone who you talk to on the phone because they're at a distance, it is not the same. I have had I could tell you so many examples of clients where you know I think of one in particular probably the more dramatic one where I had a client's daughter call from out of state and said I talked to her all the time. I just don't think she's eating as well I'm not really sure but she says everything's great. She doesn't have any issues you know it sounded fairly rosy but just check. I called 911 she hadn't been eating clearly for months part of our assessment is being a detective I look to see they tell everybody says I'm eating everybody says I took a shower. No there's dust in the shower the washing machine's not working right there's no food in the fridge. Oh no it's always ice cream pepper charm cookies and like we all lose our certain taste buds as we get older. So it's you know you laugh but it's also part of our taste buds, right? That sweet salty still taste great. And she was so severely dehydrated and was clearly having some cardiac issues that when I came in the house and so on then she fainted and I caught her in my arms and sat on the floor and called 911. Oh my God's a more dramatic start. But I guess my point is things can seem like they're okay. Sure because you can't really tell and most people will say to you whether it's because they have some cognitive issues and they don't realize or because they just don't want to admit it that oh I'm eating oh I'm cleaning oh I'm doing everything.

Mary 25:06

And if even if you're FaceTiming with your loved one it's just a small little window whatever they show you.

Annette 25:12

Yes. Yeah. Yeah all of us can be bright and shiny for half an hour. Exactly. All that's closed up.

Shannon 25:19

Mary and I go through the same thing with our clients in the sense of especially when they're at home with a loved one and loved one might tell you, oh mom can do this, mom can do that, mom's great and all this and that we get a snapshot of what the client what kind of situation they're in. But we have to go and put eyes on that person and spend time with them to actually see kind of the situation that's going on. Absolutely phone call is just not it's just not going to cut it.

Annette 25:42

No. And we do uh an intake assessment and I have for so many years where you're asking about activities of daily living and instrumental activities of daily living from the family member and then you're observing and then also asking the client and I rarely ever have them align have it match up. Because I mean in all honesty let's say if you even ask me my parents waking in bedtime I mean I I know some general sense but I don't know after say dad's knee replacement that that's not now changed. So even when we're setting up home care or services perceptions about routine and who that person is is through our own filter. So yeah you kind of got to do your due diligence of making sure that um you're assessing completely. Yeah.

Shannon 26:29

You guys have a lot of resources. When families come to you do they feel overwhelmed by how much information they're getting and the process itself and how do you help them through that?

Managing Overwhelm: Top Three Priorities

Documents, POA, And Avoiding Guardianship

Annette 26:39

Yeah that's a really good question. Overwhelm is the number one emotion probably next to fear when folks are coming in. So really it's trying not to overwhelm further. So we have a lot of information a lot of resources as I say I go into an assessment I've got like 15 things off the top of my head most times that I'm thinking right but for a solid care plan we need to reduce it down to the top three. And generally after we do that assessment and we do the intake with the family and then talking with the client coming back together and I'll say those top three. But there are clients where there's so much overwhelm or how they process information. We're all completely different how we process. I talk it through talk it out loud I'm a connector I want to connect with the resource some people are thinkers and planners and I've learned over the years very quickly where those thinkers and planners and I need to change how I communicate. So they may only have one and I'll say to them it's not that I don't have other care plan goals for you, but I see that we need to pace it carefully and we're going to focus just on number one. And to be honest, sometimes the number one I had one just yesterday where they have a very different number one but the number one burning down the house for me is the lawyer that they need to get that done. I had one I just happened to be reviewing charts and we had a power of attorney on file and it was 15 years old. That was one thing but the bigger thing was they had appoint each other husband and spouse and there's some beginning health issues as well as cognitive decline and there's new family that are now involved and helping but they don't have the tool they need. So it's like we've got to get that solved. Luckily they had already done it they just hadn't shared that document they so anyway happens. I went we had them file this morning. But that's a perfect example where folks often put that off and we have to have some negotiation about what are the top one, two, three and why am I recommending this has to move to one. And oftentimes that I move that to one because I explained to them all it takes is one other hospitalization at this moment and we're in a fragile state already that you're powerless and you're ending up in court with guardianship. It is extremely costly and then you're powerless to move the assets or what have you you need for the other care. So I try not to to alarm people, but I also try to say why I think someone has to move up on that. But that's how we try to avoid overwhelm and revisiting that um routinely of where the care plan needs to move because I often have like 15 in my head and they come to us and it's also because people come to us in crisis more often than not. Right. So I've got to put out the fire of the crisis but then there's other things they can benefit from um completely. And there's other packages. For example, we partnered with a manufacturer to create one so it was consistent across our team part of managing homes and otherwise is emergency planning. We give every new client who's in a private home a to go bag and it has a laminated tag of hey there's an emergency a gas leak a hurricane I've had everything a client or there's somebody who was a shootout. It could be anything hostage situation on their street whatever. And having lived through hurricane myself where it was Crown Zero with FEMA, having an extra copy of your documents and a list of when you're panted you got to leave real quick, get your meds, get your insulin stuff, get your incontinence supplies, whatever it is an elder needs to evacuate. But in addition to that, what do we do in the house like making sure that emergency shutoffs are labeled where are they? Just being proactive. So that's something most people don't come to us right off the bat, but it's a system that once the crisis settles, everybody needs that.

Shannon 30:39

Right.

Mary 30:39

Yeah it's the second layer once your crisis is done. Exactly.

Shannon 30:44

Is there a point in time where you think families should be coming to you what I'm getting at is we often feel like families come to us when it's too late. Right. Right. When do you think is a good time for someone to seek services like yourselves?

Annette 30:58

I think when they're doing their overall planning and beginning to think about what they want for their retirement, what they want for their end of life planning, all of that. So I do have a group of clients that I call now my proactive planners and I say to them I love proactive planners because there's so much more they can do and they can embrace the change and have more options because they chose. And then when things get different down the road I can firmly say no when they had full competency or otherwise this is who they are and what they want. So those proactive planners it came about because I would give public talks on end of life planning conversations of your life or about aging life care association. And folks would come up to me and say, I don't have kids close or I'm a solo elder or they would see the need because they were a planner type person, but didn't know what to do. So we do have a package for those folks where we do a full assessment we touch base quarterly and once a year we do a full assessment so we know each other. And that way we're waiting in the wings because if they call when they're in a full crisis in the ER, that's much harder because I don't have their medical history I don't know how to I can't get into their house to go pick up something for that is not the ideal time to start the relationship.

Shannon 32:14

Right.

Annette 32:14

No, no. And when the relationship exists already when we get that call we have a bigger team to respond than a solo practice but also we already know who's got an extra key if they want us to go get something from the house their eyeglasses their hearing aid their whatever secure things make sure the bills are paid.

Mary 32:33

It's so much easier. You know them and they know you trust is already built. Yeah.

Shannon 32:39

I agree even with you know the clients that come to us and get their estate planning done and then you know two or three years down the line they're now ready for what Mary and I do in the placement part.

Annette 32:49

Yeah.

Emergency Planning And Go-Bags

Shannon 32:50

I found out those clients are a lot less overwhelmed because they've already been preparing that one day this is this is going to come three or four years down the line. So they're ready for it and their mother or father usually is also ready for it at that time also.

Mary 33:03

They're not hearing all of it for the first time at that point when you're in crisis.

Shannon 33:08

It's not the culture shock of it is when you know when you come into the field and when you I'm sorry when we have a crisis situation and you know you're getting a bunch of things thrown at you or you're having um the case manager, social worker hand you a paper and say call these facilities or call these home cares. You know, you're it's a little bit different when you have someone actually holding your hand and walking you through the entire process. So I think it's a great resource that I think more people need to take advantage of.

Annette 33:31

Absolutely absolutely yeah I always say having your plan A, your plan B, and your plan C, because life doesn't always go according to how your plan is that it's true. But at least if you have a trusted relationship with someone like yourselves or with an aging life advisor, you have some roadmap and there's a what I call a destination postcard. There's some vision of what someone would like to happen. But if you have to have a plan B of where some like placement someone may not ever want that but if there is to be, do they want to be in Massachusetts near their one family member here? I mean just even those decisions.

Shannon 34:06

Are there any misconceptions that you encounter from clients or your families about the kind of work that you do?

Annette 34:14

Boundaries I guess sometimes.

Shannon 34:18

I think we can all relate there.

Plan A, B, And C Mindset

Annette 34:20

Because I think sometimes they think we're the 911 emergency people. Now while we do go to the hospital and we advocate and so forth it doesn't mean that every time someone goes at 3 a.m we can get out of bed and leave and sometimes we do but preach it to the choir it's yeah you're not always able to or you it's during the workday and you're literally at this hospital with this client and another one calls and they're at this one and sometimes a team member can go but sometimes it's you know phone management. So that's that's one piece boundaries also of knowing the scope of practice. So while we might professionally recommend you need the lawyer for this, I'm not the lawyer. And while like myself is a little different I have that therapy background, still not your therapist in this capacity. Right. Um so really as the care manager, many folks will say we're the quarterback or the general contractor. We're in that center with a lot of knowledge about all these fears we assessed for, but we're not that person. We're gonna have to be the expert enter of it. Exactly. It's knowing enough to know who to connect with and who they really need. But but that's where boundaries come because sometimes people will be like give me a little more input on this or call again about it. But I often say sometimes people aren't ready to hear what you have to say. It's not that you didn't say it well.

Shannon 35:38

Right.

Annette 35:38

It's not that you didn't say it. It's just they weren't ready to hear it. But back to the overwhelm thing I often think because when people are in panic and overwhelm the front of our brain for rational planning doesn't work.

Shannon 35:50

So you kind of have to time the message right absolutely Mary and I said in our first episode part of what we do is teach our clients how to be the advocate for the loved one wherever they are teaching them how if your loved one is in a facility this is who you go to to talk about this. So you go to talk about this. So that way you know once our job is done they're able or equipped with at least the tools to be able to advocate for the loved one or their family because you have to be the advocate for your loved one in in wherever they are at any sort of healthcare setting you have to be the advocate for your loved one if you want things to shake sometimes.

Annette 36:23

Yes. And and that that's a great tool to teach people about who to talk to because for some of us who worked in healthcare we sort of take it for granted. Absolutely 100% correct and and it's also coaching folks that um for some folks that advocacy is not aggression.

Mary 36:39

No.

Boundaries And Scope Of Practice

Annette 36:39

And understanding your partnership and how their words and their language come across to the team they have to work with. Absolutely so it's a careful balance between sometimes being really upset or emotional about something and getting their loved ones needs met without backing down right it's that some folks need more coaching in either being more fierce, so to say, that they're being too quiet about things they hold until it erupts or if folks who are really aggressive that need to be in middle.

Shannon 37:09

So finding that balance between you know knowing when you have to be when you have to be aggressive but if something goes terribly wrong but you don't have to come in guns a blazing every single time. You know you can your tone and the word that you say matters a lot especially when you're you know if your loved one is having to live in some place, you know, you're better off trying to be in the good graces or at least trying to work with the facility that you're at just so that everything can go even as as smooth as possible is arguable.

Annette 37:35

Yeah. A thousand percent how do fa how do you help families wave the weigh the pros and cons of um using yourselves versus using, let's say going it going it on their own route well sometimes it's a verbal conversation but again back to the way some people think right I find that thinkers and planners want it in writing. So they may want the pros and cons literally written out with them of where things stand.

Mary 38:03

Making that physical list.

Coaching Families To Advocate Well

DIY Vs Hiring A Care Advisor

Annette 38:05

Right. So let's say for families who maybe do a one-time consultation and they want to do it on their own, that's part of the summary I'd put at the end of you can divide as the family here are the resources you can call but if you'd like to hire us, this is in our opinion, we'd we would manage it this way either once a week visit in the beginning once a month visit, we would set these things up in the timeframe. So the main way we kind of move that forward besides mapping it out is explaining that we've done this so many times so we can do it efficiently. Families can certainly do it on their own and and some do that beautifully and letting know they can call us and ask for advice or a little input on something, it doesn't have to be a full engagement with us. So yeah, that's the pros and cons. It's a little tricky though, because I don't over say that any family has to have an aging life care advisor. I think that for some just having a little education about like you said with advocacy and otherwise that they can do that themselves. But for some when it gets to a point where they really it's making their personal life and their family suffer themselves and their health or their work, then it's great to partner with us because again we're not taking over everything. It's a partnership. So sometimes they say I'm gonna work on the placement and set up the tours I want you to do the monitoring for this it's really that's the beauty of it. It's not like someone signs on and we treat it has to be the same for everybody. It's not yeah. Are there any trends you're seeing whether it be in assisted livings, whether it be in SNPs, home care hospitals, any trends in the industry you're current see currently seeing there are there are a lot of different changes and trends things change very quickly but I'll talk about one without giving too much away about what I'm working on right now for my strategic goals this next year. There's more in the technology space and we've seen that in aging And in home care for some time. But like most things, watching and staying educated with it, things evolve and get better. I think we could all think of technologies in our lifetime where it's quickly evolved, right? And what has changed. Um, whether it be in how you listen to music, to the phones and all of that. So there's some place between of jumping into it and using that. So our team has been using more and more technology, and it's interesting because I say interesting, because most of our team, they're clinicians and people directed. They are more relational than transactional. And most people see IT stuff as transactional. But once people see how something uses and it's a good, useful tool, it really changes the dynamic for everyone. So there's a couple products we've used that I used with my own family members that we're using, but I'm also working um more in the space of sensors in the home to really get more data and help for families. Because I see too many families putting in cameras, which are great in some ways, but man, it causes a burden for the family. They become like a security officer where they're watching and watching and looking to, and it's it's burdensome. And it's not really giving them the data they always need to know when they need to intervene, when they don't need to intervene, when there's a crisis going on the home lung caregivers. Right. So I'm working on that and I won't reveal too much. That's exciting. It's very exciting. So more to come on that. Nice. Yeah. But there are some other tools in the technology we've used, such as other, I'll speak of one like Care 360, give a plug for Paula Mueller. I've been working with her when her product before was Sociave and Caroline 360 were using it more with clients, and I used it with my mother-in-law.

Shannon 41:51

Oh, great.

Annette 41:52

Um, when she was on hospice with dementia, and I had to go away for a week and I was really not wanting to leave. And I called Paula, she put it in the next day. And while the device has all these other features that she couldn't avail herself of, the feature of just being able to pop in on the screen that was right on her bedside table. She didn't have to push anything. I didn't have to push anything except for my phone. And I could chat with her and say goodnight every night and talk with her. I sent pictures every day that while she was laying in bed, she saw her favorite flowers, she saw the grandkids, is invaluable. And while I had used it, my team needed to see it in action because again, they're not, they're like, we're not IT people. I'm not installing something. But two of my care managers went because there were two clients. I kept saying, these are perfect. They need to have this, it'll change the dynamic for their family who's at a distance too. Yeah, they put it in for one. And they both were like, yeah, we really see this as a tremendous benefit.

Shannon 42:52

That's amazing. I want to ask, what got you to get into this line of work where you wanted to help people? We all have a story. What's yours?

Tech Tools That Actually Help

Annette 43:01

I'll have our why. I have my why, but but then there's also the things that happen throughout your life that keep you in it, right? So I think as a kid, I grew up in a household where um, well, it's all my family. So we lived in a small farming community, a rural farming community. So everyone sort of knows everybody. But my grandparents and my aunts and uncles, we all live down the same street. And when people in our area needed help, there weren't home care agencies, there weren't agencies. It's the community. And my family all were the kind of people like we always had people staying in our house. My mother was the home ec teacher in town, and we'd have someone who's a pregnant teen and someone who was having trouble with her dad at home and spending the night. And we'd have exchange students from overseas staying at my grandparents' house or our house. And my mother would bake for all of the shut-ins and all the elders in town and drive tea rings around all Christmas. So everybody had something. It's just the heart of who we are as a family and giving back in our church and in missions and so on. So they're all teachers, though. And I said, I'm gonna be different. I'm not gonna be a teacher. So it's social work, but I think they're all social workslash teachers of how they act. And then, of course, through my grandparents, like my mom's mother and father, I was very close with and their charity work. There was a blind woman in our church that I call Grandma Grandma Dince. She wasn't my grandmother, but I loved her and she sit in the back of the church. So I'd visit with her after church every Sunday. And I always think of her as one of the early folks because she couldn't do much. But she said, I can't do much, but I can still make these little necklaces with my hands for everybody and I can still pray everybody and give blessings. And I thought, I want to find that spark for everybody. Like, what is the joy that somebody can have? Because we get lost in being sick or we get lost in what's happening or player diagnosis, whatever it is. But how do you help people still find that joy? And I constantly say on our team, like, what are the little things you can do that becomes a big thing? And I've had clients where I had them for many years, and I'd always say, our little joy bucket every year instead of like a resolution, like what is it you'd like to do this year that maybe we haven't done before? What's new? And that brings that's the stuff that keeps me going in it and not what necessarily started. But those are the things where I just, yeah, bring chills and tears to my eyes of remembering things that brought joy.

Shannon 45:31

Great. Yeah. Absolutely great. Annette Murphy, executive director for Spring Pointer Home. Thank you so much for coming today and joining us on our podcast. Thank you for all the information that you were able to share and provide resources. This was great. Yeah. Thank you for watching.

Annette 45:46

Thank you so much. You're welcome. Thanks for the opportunity.

Shannon 45:49

If you found this episode helpful, please be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone that could benefit.

Mary 45:54

Just remember you don't have to navigate aging or caregiving alone.

Shannon 45:58

If today's conversation raised questions about elder law, long-term care, or planning ahead, visit jerseyelderlaw.com or call 609-842-9200 to find resources and support.

Mary 46:12

This is for mature audiences only, presented by Archer Law Office. Until next time, keep pushing forward and keep the conversation going.