Faith, Justice, and Courage: Lessons from Judge Gabrielle Kirk McDonald Part 1

What does it take to turn pain into purpose—and make history doing it?

In this powerful episode, Judge Gabrielle Kirk McDonald shares her journey from facing racism at a young age to becoming a global leader in justice and civil rights. 

Through faith, resilience, and courage, her story is a reminder that your past doesn’t define you. It can prepare you.

Hit play and discover the mindset that turns adversity into legacy.

Learn more, explore Soul Care resources, and connect with Dr. Sujay at DrSujayGlobal.com

Submit questions and topics at AskDrSujay.com 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Do you ever wonder how faith fits into leadership or how to lead with both power and purpose? If you're looking for wisdom that bridges culture, confidence, and calling, then this podcast is for you. Here's Global Diplomat, Business Strategist, and Women's Empowerment icon, your host, Ambassador Susan Johnson Cook.

SPEAKER_02 0:30

I'm so excited today to share with you an interview done a decade ago with Judge Gabrielle Kirkland McDonald, the first tribunal judge at The Hague, male, female, black, or white, and it is my honor to introduce her to you. She is an awesome woman, and we had interviews. I've been at this for a while. Before there were podcasts, I was doing conversations in my living room. And so this is a conversation with Ambassador Sujay in the wonderful village of Sag Harbor where I grew up. And you can also, you'll be able to see this on YouTube. But today I want you to hear the words and the conversation with Judge Gabrielle Kirk McDonald, an awesome woman, a history moment, not just for women's history, but as we celebrate the 250th anniversary of the United States, this is a history maker, and I want you to meet her. Please enjoy Ask Dr. Sujay. Good afternoon. We're here today. We welcome you to the Sag Harbor Summer Speaker Series. And we're so excited to have with us today Judge Gabrielle Kirk McDonald. Can we welcome her? And she really doesn't need a welcome because you're really part of us, and we're so happy to have you. We're living in the Hamptons and we're excited about what you do. When I was leaving for Washington, and there was the send-off, 86 women at B. Smith's, and there was the send-off to the Senate confirmation hearings. I hadn't even been confirmed yet, but you stood up at the very end and you said, I want to tell you what she's about to go into. It's not one of these comfy ambassadorships, but she's actually going to go into religious freedom, which is a really major issue. And I think people really don't understand what you did as well, because she is all over the globe. Her name is Revered and Honored. She was the UN War Crimes Tribunal Judge, the first African American, but you didn't just get there. You worked for it. It was a journey. So let me ask you: you went to Howard University. Why did you choose Howard and what was going on in the year that you were there?

SPEAKER_01 2:42

Well, actually, I remember what I said was that yours was not a fluff job. I remember that because it's not a fluff job. You know, a lot of times people think that, oh, you're an ambassador and you that means it's kind of a gratuitous thing, you know. No, it was a very serious position. So I commend you and thank you for having me. I applied to one law school, and that was Howard. And it was in 1963. And that's because I wanted to be a civil rights lawyer. I didn't want to be a lawyer, I wanted to be a civil rights lawyer. And that was a very disturbing time in our history. Unfortunately, it seems like that we're returning to that time. And Howard Law School was the really the legal think tank for the civil rights movement, the architects of the movement, beginning with Charles Hamilton Houston, Thurdon Marshall, Frank Reeves. You can just name names, so many of them. That's where I wanted to be. So the year was 63. The 100th anniversary of the Emancipation Proclamation. And there was, I was in New York at Hunter College, and there was a celebration of the Emancipation Proclamation at the new school. And I was introduced to these great black scholars. Then, of course, it was Negro scholars, as we were referred to.

SPEAKER_02 4:04

But three years you were in law school there? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

So where was Dr. King? One law school was Howard in Washington, D.C. I don't know what would have happened if Howard hadn't accepted me, but that's where I wanted to be.

SPEAKER_02 4:16

So tell us about Dr. Martin Luther King. I mean, there were a whole lot of things happening in civil rights. And so you were a young woman in civil rights, interested in civil rights. Interesting. What was happening with Dr. King? Who else were the names at that time?

SPEAKER_01 4:28

Oh my goodness. Well, you know, we had the march on Washington in 1963, right before that. Dr. Martin Luther King had written his letter from Birmingham. It was the three civil rights workers had been murdered recently. But really, it was before that that I was kind of touched by the horror that we were subjected to. Because I was in Teaneck, New Jersey, uh going to school there. And I was seeing things on TV uh at Central High School in Little Rock, Emmettil when I was, you know, 13. All of those things kind of impacted me and it kind of came together in in 1963.

SPEAKER_02 5:09

So do you think your passion was birthed out of your pain? Were the painful moments birthed your passion?

SPEAKER_01 5:16

But that's a very good question. I think so. You know, and and we'd even have to go back further. I remember my mother was biracial, uh, she looked white. Uh and I remember she rented an apartment in Riverdale, uh, and I was nine years old, eight, eight years old, I guess, at the time. And when I showed up, there was a problem. And that's when there was an attempt to really to put us out. And I can remember going to school, as we all have, and uh being subjected to the N-word, and it was pretty tough. It really was. And this was not in Little Rock, this was not in the South, this was in New York. And it I remember I had one friend, Marianne Heffernan. Her father was a fireman, as the name might suggest. And I remember her telling some of the friends who would chase me home, as tall as I am, I I'm not really that courageous physically. I'm running home. And she said, you know, she she went to Florida and she just has a tan. And you know, and and to this day I think about that many, many years later, and I never really I don't think I corrected that. But it didn't work, so I was still the N-word. Yes. And so it got so bad that I ran away at nine years old. Would you believe? Oh my goodness. I had my little red briefcase and I packed it up and put a lot of t-shirts on, and Mary Ann Heffernan and I were gone. And the police picked us up, thank goodness it wasn't thank goodness I wasn't a black man. It it mine turned out differently. They picked us up and called her father and and he came and got us. And I guess, and then my mother said, Well, what am I gonna do with this black child? And so she sent me to my grandparents in Minnesota and St. Paul, and it was there that I had the safety of being in a predominantly black neighborhood. And I remember that. And and the curious thing is, and I've just thought about this recently since I retired, the street that I lived on in Riverdale was on Netherlands Avenue. Oh wow. So and that was in 1951, because I have a missile that's engraved by my mother in 1951. Forty forty forty-two years later, I was in the Netherlands.

SPEAKER_02 7:45

Isn't that amazing?

SPEAKER_01 7:47

As an international judge. Now who would have thought as you say? But that's the impact of racism, and it's how you can kind of turn it around. Yes, it was my interest was born out of pain, but there was a way to turn it around with a a lot of help.

SPEAKER_02 8:05

So you went through Howard Law School and then you ended up in Texas.

SPEAKER_01 8:10

Well, no, I went to Howard and then I joined the NAACP Legal Defense Fund. Because again, I applied to one law school, I knew what I wanted to do, and I wanted to, when I graduated, work for a civil rights organization, and the NAACP Legal Defense Fund was the premier civil rights organization that had argued more civil rights cases in the Supreme Court than any other organization. Thurgood Marshall, I was there a couple of years, and then I married and went to Texas. I found out about my husband to be when I was arguing a case in in St. Louis, and they said, Oh, he's a tall, handsome. I didn't I didn't know whether he could read or write. But I took my well, but we met and I we worked on a case together, actually. Someone contacted the legal defense fund. They wanted to file a case in Houston, and I selected him as the attorney to work with us on the local level. And I got to Houston, and then we became we really became civil rights lawyers.

SPEAKER_02 9:14

Well, you can understand this was a historical moment and it was an awesome moment. Just the interview. And I know you have questions of your own, and Judge is still around. And if you have some questions or comments you want to share, go to askdrsujay.com and also continue to be in touch with us. We have soul care cards. We're interested in the soul not only of your soul, but the soul of a nation and the soul of our world right now. What's going on? So you can always reach me at drsujayglobal.com, but also right here at askdrsujay.com and share this, like this, listen to it on your favorite podcast. I'm so thankful you joined me today.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

So that's it for today's episode of Ask Dr. Sujay. Head on over to Apple Podcasts iTunes or wherever you subscribe to listen to the show. One lucky listener every single week who posts a review on Apple Podcasts or iTunes will win a chance in the grand prize drawing to win a$15,000 private VIP day with Dr. Sujay herself. Be sure to head on over to AskDrSujay.com and pick up a free copy of Dr. Sujay's gift and join us on the next episode.