Faith, Justice, and Courage: Lessons from Judge Gabrielle Kirk McDonald Part 3

In this inspiring episode of Ask Dr. Sujay, Ambassador Sujay Johnson Cook continues her powerful conversation with Judge Gabrielle Kirk McDonald, one of the most accomplished legal minds in modern history. Judge McDonald shares her remarkable journey from civil rights attorney and federal judge to becoming one of the first judges of the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia in The Hague.

Drawing on decades of experience in law, civil rights, international justice, and leadership, Judge McDonald reflects on the pivotal moments, mentors, and opportunities that shaped her extraordinary career. She discusses the importance of preparation, purpose, timing, and courage while sharing how her work with the NAACP Legal Defense Fund ultimately led to a historic role on the global stage.

The conversation explores international law, human rights, war crimes tribunals, leadership, public service, diversity in the legal profession, and the responsibility of standing for justice even in the most complex circumstances. Judge McDonald also shares insights into the formation of international criminal courts, the pursuit of accountability for crimes against humanity, and her experience serving as President of the tribunal.

This episode is a powerful lesson in leadership, perseverance, public service, and the lasting impact one person can have when they commit their life to justice, equality, and meaningful change.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Do you ever wonder how faith fits into leadership or how to lead with both power and purpose? If you're looking for wisdom that bridges culture, confidence, and calling, then this podcast is for you. Here's Global Diplomat, Business Strategist, and Women's Empowerment Icon, your host, Ambassador Susan Johnson Cook.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

So congratulations on being the third African American woman federal judge in the history of the United States. How then did you go from there, as a trailblazer certainly, to The Hague? What's the road to The Hague?

SPEAKER_02 0:44

Well, once again, we go back to the NAACP Legal Defense Fund. The International Criminal Tribune Well, there was a war in the former Yugoslavia, an armed conflict. And it went on and went on. And the international community really did nothing about it. It just kept going. And we and I don't think that the international community knew what to do. There was a decision made to establish a war crimes tribunal to try persons charged with crimes in the former Yugoslavia during that conflict.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

So who makes those kind of decisions?

SPEAKER_02 1:19

The Security Council established the tribunal, and uh the statute that was drafted by the Secretary General provided that there would be eleven judges on this international criminal tribunal in the Netherlands, in The Hague, which is really the international legal capital. It wasn't established in the former Yugoslavia, it was established in the Netherlands. Each country could submit the name of one person for the position. Each member state of the United Nations. The United States submitted my name. Now, why me? Well, I would like to think that I was the most qualified person in the entire United States. But the legal advisor of the State Department was a man named Conrad Harper, a black American, who I had worked with at the Legal Defense Fund. You see how things go back and see how my decision to be a civil rights lawyer, you know, was created, as you put it, out of pain. And I became the civil rights lawyer, went to the legal defense fund. Okay. I was content to be a civil rights lawyer. That's all I wanted to be. That's all I hoped to be. But then when I became a federal judge, that's a very powerful position. And they were looking for persons who had judicial experience, particularly in criminal law. And as a federal judge, I had both criminal and civil law experience. And so Conrad contacted me and asked me if I was interested. I said, I don't know, maybe, you know, I had been to Europe, but I didn't know anyone in Europe. Thought about it for a while, and I sent him my resume and to contacted me sometime thereafter and told me, well, that they had done their thing and that they were down to two names. And you and I was one of the two. And then I was selected to fast forward it.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

It's an honor though. What goes into a decision of now moving all the way around the world? I mean it's an honor, but what else do you have to factor in? Family?

SPEAKER_02 3:27

Into the decision that they made?

SPEAKER_01 3:29

Into your decision to say yes.

SPEAKER_02 3:31

Oh, well, it was a good. The timing again, you know, like most things in life, a lot of it is timing. My children were in college then, and I was free to move. But I like change anyway, and I like challenge and the opportunity to work with the first international criminal tribunal really i it more than wetted my appetite. It was something that I again it kind of felt, I don't think then, but later, that it was kind of a confluence of all of my various careers because I was a civil rights lawyer, then I was a federal judge, but I also taught law.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 4:10

And international humanitarian law, which is what was applied by the war crimes tribunal.

SPEAKER_01 4:16

And where were you teaching?

SPEAKER_02 4:17

I was teaching at Thurgood Marshall School of Law, Texas Southern University, a historically black university. I had taught at the University of Texas, I had taught at St. Mary's.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

Um Did you meet Barbara Jordan during that time?

SPEAKER_02 4:30

Yes. As a matter of fact, you didn't ask me, but I went to Houston, of course, because of the description that I received. Uh well, I selected one lawyer to work with on a case because of the description that I received about him. He later became my husband. The other lawyer was Barbara Jordan. She had filed a lawsuit or was going to file a lawsuit. No, she had filed a lawsuit against a company in Houston, and she needed a co-counsel because the Legal Defense Fund specialized in civil rights, and the local lawyers sometimes had their practice to maintain, and they didn't. So when I went to Houston for the first time and met Mark, I also met Barbara Jordan.

SPEAKER_01 5:10

What history. I mean, what highlights in your life?

SPEAKER_02 5:12

So we worked together on that case.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

So now you accept The Hague, you're there. How does it compare to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that we worked with in the State Department? How did they decide to have run this?

SPEAKER_02 5:25

Well, the Universal Declaration is not enforceable in a court of law. Okay. It's more in a sense aspirational, not to r reduce the importance of it, but um uh what we were applying were treaties that had been agreed to that prescribed certain behavior and prohibited certain behavior in times of war. The problem was that there had never been an international tribunal to apply those laws. So it's like having a law that says that you are to drive 30 miles an hour, but no one stops you from driving 50 or 60 or whatever. Okay. And so the treaties had dictated these requirements, but they hadn't been enforced. The closest that the international community had come was the Nuremberg trials in the 40s and the trial in uh Japan by the Tokyo Tribunal that was established by General MacArthur. But those were really, well, the Nuremberg was a multinational tribunal established by the victorious allies. But this for the first time was a truly international tribunal established by the community of nations.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

And you were the U.S. representative.

SPEAKER_02 6:42

It was the well, not representative, but well, I the reason I say not representative is that we were independent. Okay. And that's very important as a judge because people said that this was a political decision because a tribunal was established for the former Yugoslavia, but had not been established for the countries, for example, Rwanda. It was only after the one for the Yuzla conflict was established that one was established for Rwanda. And you can probably guess why. It's unfortunately the way things are. Europe is more important to the powers that be than Africa in so many instances, notwithstanding a genocide that occurred in Rwanda where 800,000 people were slaughtered in three months in 1994. In three months. And most often by machetes. You know, that's do you know what it takes to stomach turning.

SPEAKER_01 7:39

That's stomach turning. But in any case, so how long did you stay in The Hague?

SPEAKER_02 7:45

I was there six years. I was there for the first term of four years, and then I was re-elected, and then I was elected by my fellow judges to be president of the tribunal. And then I stayed for the two-year term of being president.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

So that's it for today's episode of Ask Dr. Sujay. Head on over to Apple Podcasts iTunes or wherever you subscribe to listen to the show. One lucky listener every single week who posts a review on Apple Podcasts or iTunes will win a chance in the grand prize drawing to win a $15,000 private VIP day with Dr. Sujay herself. Be sure to head on over to AskDoctorSujay.com and pick up a free copy of Dr. Sujay's gift and join us on the next episode.