Faith, Justice, and Courage: Lessons from Judge Gabrielle Kirk McDonald Part 4

What does it take to lead with courage when the world feels divided?

In this powerful episode of Ask Dr. Sujay, Ambassador Sujay Johnson Cook concludes her inspiring conversation with Judge Gabrielle Kirk McDonald, a pioneering attorney, federal judge, civil rights advocate, and international justice leader. Judge McDonald reflects on faith, racism, leadership, purpose, and the responsibility of creating opportunities for future generations.

Drawing from her groundbreaking career in civil rights law and international justice, she shares candid insights on confronting racism, the importance of difficult conversations, the power of mentorship, and why lasting change requires both courage and action. She also discusses her commitment to increasing diversity in international law and helping young leaders see new possibilities for their future.

This heartfelt conversation explores leadership, social justice, faith, resilience, legacy, and the role each of us can play in creating a more equitable world. Through wisdom, honesty, and personal reflection, Judge McDonald reminds us that true success comes from pursuing work you are passionate about, doing it well, and using your gifts to serve others.

If you're looking for inspiration, leadership lessons, and a deeper understanding of purpose-driven impact, this episode is one you won't want to miss.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Do you ever wonder how faith fits into leadership or how to lead with both power and purpose? If you're looking for wisdom that bridges culture, confidence, and calling, then this podcast is for you. Here's Global Diplomat, Business Strategist, and Women's Empowerment icon. Your host, Ambassador Susan Johnson Cook.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

In our opening statement, you alluded to the fact that things seem to be coming back around in terms of racism in this country. Eric Holder, you quoted one time, talked about we have to really confront racism. And I'm paraphrasing, but how do you feel, you know, as a judge, as a black woman, with what's going on now in Ferguson, Trayvon Martin, I mean you name it, without president of the United States, how do you deal with the racism from where you sit?

SPEAKER_02 0:58

Well, what Eric Holder was talking, I think you're referring to a speech that he gave, and what he was saying is that we needed to have a dialogue about racism. We need to talk about it. Right. And we don't talk about it. You know, even it's very difficult to raise a conversation with some of your white friends about racism. Um people want to run away from it, and it needs to be talked about. But a little more than that needs to be done. Something needs to be done about it. How do I feel? I feel powerless. I feel powerless. I feel sometimes anger, a lot of times sadness. Um I feel um overwhelmed. Um what do you do about this situation that where seemingly young black men are targeted? Um you know, there's a certain similarity with the conflict in the former Yugoslavia. The conflict in the former Yugoslavia occurred because there were Serbs on one side, Serbia, Croatia, and in the middle was Bosnia, where Muslims live. In Serbia, and this is gets back to your position, Serbia, they're Christians, but they don't recognize the Virgin Mary. They're priests, they don't take a vow of celibacy. Croats are Roman Catholics, and then the Muslims are very different. And the conflict to a certain extent with Muslims, with the Serbs and the Croats coming together to fight over the country in between, is due to something that happened in the 1300s, where the Ottoman Empire defeated Serbia. So these old wounds never close. They never close. And generation after generation recalls what happened to their uncle by a Serb, or what happened to their uncle by a Croat, or what the Muslims did in the 1300s. Well, here in the United States, there's a lot of that. There's the legacy of slavery. You try to talk sometimes to people about that, and they don't get it, or they don't want to get it. They say, get over it. That happened, didn't happen in the 13th century, happened in a more recent time. And they don't understand how there's a intergenerational impact. And so there has to be a dialogue, of course, but there has to be a um acknowledgement of what has occurred and a commitment to repair that. I didn't use reparations, but whatever is necessary. Um because people say it's not because of race, it's because of something else. Somehow they are just intrinsically um unworthy. And it's sad. It's very sad. It's sad, but there's I don't know. I you know, I'm now retired.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

Right.

SPEAKER_02 4:18

But uh I still have this boiling inside of me.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

And I'm the mother of two sides. So uh what have you not done that you hoped you would do in life? I mean, you've certainly accomplished a lot. There are highlights. Is there anything that you wish you could do that you haven't done?

SPEAKER_02 4:38

Well, it's something that I continue to do, and it's not done, and that is to improve opportunities for black Americans, primarily in the field of law, because that's something that I can chew on, so to speak. You know, when you look at Ferguson or and Ferguson is just a metaphor, as someone said on TV for everything that's happening throughout the United States. When I was at the Yugoslav tribunal, at the War Crimes Tribunal, I began a what we called a project on African Americans in international law. And the reason was that I entered international law after being a civil rights lawyer for a long time and as a federal judge, but I didn't see people who looked like me around me. And there were white people who even said it. The dean of a law school, a very prestigious law school, came to the Netherlands and said, I'm so happy to see you. He's a white man. And he said, you know, because everyone in international law looks like me, a man white with gray hair. Um, so I started this project on African-American Center International Law to introduce international law to young black Americans uh in law school. We didn't get very far, in part because I was pretty busy there.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:55

But then this year in April, I was elected honorary president of the American Society of International Law. And it's what it says it is. And at the meeting uh when they announce the results, you know, we stand up and we thank. And well, honorary, you know what honorary means. Honorary means you're old and you're supposed to sit back and smile and say thank you. Well, I stood up and said and remind well, told most of those in attendance about my efforts 20 years before with a project on African Americans and international law. And I said, I you know, I didn't get very far because I look around the American Society of International Law and I see very few African Americans. So I would like to take this on as my project for my two-year term as an honorary president, and I will be calling upon each of you to help me.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

Well, how did they respond?

SPEAKER_02 6:52

It's interesting because no honorary president, and this is organization that's been around for over a hundred years, had never done anything more than smile and say thank you for this position in my old age. You know, I can just sit and add it to whatever you want to add when you get old and you don't need anything more. I don't know, but anyway. But the again, a number of things came together and people. And you asked about faith? Yes. And I I don't think I believe that God's in each of us. And many of the opportunities, I would say all of the opportunities I've had have been because of people who have entered my life. You talked about Lloyd Benson, Conrad Harper, any other number of people. And I believe that that's God acting through them. You know, I told someone once, and I had never heard this before, but I believe that just as Mark and I created our kids, Michael and Stacy, they have within them within their DNA really us. Yes. And I view it the view it really the same way. So back to the ASEL, American Society of International Law. The outgoing president I knew, he's a partner with a major law firm. He was very, very, very supportive. He said, This is a great thing. And the incoming president has now taken it on and has agreed to appoint a task force, and that task force will go forward and hopefully accomplish something. And what we need to accomplish is to bring in young black people, go to the law schools, let them know that there's a reason to study international law, that you can do more than just study it. Right. You can make a living doing it. And they don't believe that you can make a living doing it because they don't see anyone like them, or very few. So to answer your question about what I want to do, that's that's my latest project. But it's not even a project, it's something inside of me.

SPEAKER_01 9:05

Of course, it's a life work. How do you define success? Our last question for the day.

SPEAKER_02 9:10

Oh my, I've been successful. And I've been successful. I think because I was fortunate enough. You know, when you're retired, you you're forcing me to think about things. That first of all, I I chose a path that I was passionate about. I truly was. I mean, even at Howard, they called me Miss NAACP, you know, and that's something. So I was passionate about it because of a lot of experiences that I had before I got there. So choose what you're passionate about. Uh, but then do it well. And do it well even when it's not fun. You know, there's a lot of drudgery to stuff. Yes. Just do it well. And then have faith that you're on the right path and hope that you have people who come into your life who can take you and kind of push you as a vehicle to accomplish something. So it's really doing something that you find gratifying and doing it well, and that you're successful.

SPEAKER_01 10:20

What would you say to Michael Brown's mother? What would you say to her and the other mothers who are crying right now?

SPEAKER_02 10:29

I don't know. I think I'd hug them first and cry with them and tell them I know what you well, no, I wouldn't tell them I know what you feel. I I'd tell them that as hard as it may seem, if I was very courageous, there's a reason for things. And that perhaps out of the loss of your son will come a better life, a better life for us all. And that can't replace your son, but it can bring a lot of goodness to other people who are like your son. I don't know. I'd I'd hug them and probably cry with them.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

Well, we want to hug you and thank you for blazing the trails and being a woman of the join me and thank you, Joe.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

So that's it for today's episode of Ask Dr. Sujay. Head on over to Apple Podcasts iTunes or wherever you subscribe to listen to the show. One lucky listener every single week who posts a review on Apple Podcasts or iTunes will win a chance the grand prize drawing to win a $15,000 private VIP day with Dr. Sujay herself. Be sure to head on over to askdrsujay.com and pick up a free copy of Dr. Sujay's gift and join us on the next episode.