Sending 250 Connection Requests a Week to Escape Big Law - with Megan Senese

On this episode of The Wellness Esquire Podcast, Ariella Cohen Coleman chats with Megan Senese, co-founder of Stage and a legal marketing and business development strategist.

They explore the transition from the "robotic" expectations of BigLaw to building a business rooted in authenticity and kindness. Megan shares her strategy for sending 250 connection requests a week to build her platform in stealth mode, the psychological toll of the billable hour, and why the most powerful business development tool is simply being a human being.

Guest:

Megan Senese, co-founder of Stage & Legal Business Development Strategist

Her website: https://stage.guide/

Connect with her on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/megansenese/

Listen to her podcast, So Much to Say: A Legal Podcast for People.  

• Megan also offers four free business development sessions for any parent returning from parental leave! 

Host Info: Ariella Cohen Coleman

The Wellness Esquire: Creating a bold new path where wellbeing, happiness, and authenticity drive performance and success https://thewellnessesquire.com

Ariella Law, PC provides strategic legal support - from formation, contracts, and compliance to fractional general counsel - through project-based services and monthly subscriptions for entrepreneurs, growing companies, and mission-driven organizations. https://ariellaw.com/

Follow Ariella:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ariellacoleman/
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• Website: https://ariellacohencoleman.com/

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to the Wellness Esquire podcast. I'm Ariella, and I am so excited to share this conversation with Megan Sinise. Megan is the co-founder of Stage, a legal marketing agency, and she is also a powerful voice on LinkedIn, precisely because she is not your typical polished executive, which I say so lovingly. Megan is all about authenticity and sharing the messiness and imperfection of life and career, and she uses her normal humanness to guide her clients to understand that there is more than one way to do business development, and the best way to do it is the way that feels authentic and right for you. One of the reasons I loved this conversation was because we recorded on a rough day, and that showed throughout the conversation, and we talked about it. We recorded on September 11th, which is already heavy enough. And on top of that, there was so much other heavy stuff going on in the world. Megan talked about feeling the weight of it all and just having a down day. And we talked about the silly little spreadsheets that we use to feel productive when the world feels heavy. We talked about Megan's own marketing strategy that led her to become the well-known and loved voice that she is, and how she built her own agency. I tried complimenting Megan on being uh on her being one of my favorite kind voices on LinkedIn, which led to Megan opening up about why it can be so hard to hear nice things about ourselves and why she believes the most impactful thing we can do in this industry is to stop pretending that we have our shit all together. This was an important conversation because of the absolute realness and messiness of it, and because we get into the massive role that non-lawyers play in the legal industry in ways that many lawyers don't understand and don't always respect. And how when we all work together as a team of humans with kindness and understanding, and we think outside of the box, we can go farther than we ever imagined, and we can feel good while we do it. I'm so grateful to Megan for the way she shows up in the world and in our industry and for spending time with me to show how we can move through our rough days and then go and kick some ass. Thanks so much for listening and enjoy.

unknown 2:00

Hi!

SPEAKER_02 2:02

How are you? I'm wonderful today. How are you feeling?

SPEAKER_01 2:08

I mean, there's a lot of shit going on.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

There's also that. Tell me how how are you doing with all the shit going on?

SPEAKER_01 2:22

Um yeah. It's um I feel like I'm just pr like living my stupid little life over here where I'm like, I'm just gonna like do my spreadsheets. Um relate to that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Because I don't I don't know what else to to to do, you know. I don't know. Um like I took some pictures of my dog, so that was fun. You should do that. You should share them too. I did some dog pictures, and I also took pictures of my children this morning. Just like getting ready. Um, I have a nine-year-old and a seven-year-old. And so, um but it's hard to like not um like I took pictures of them because I was like, oh, they're so cute. And then I was like, oh, like hope this isn't this is like going dark real quick. Like, I hope this isn't me like documenting their last fucking outfits as I send them to school.

SPEAKER_02 3:23

You know, uh yeah. The fact that that even ever has to be on someone's mind. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

It's it's it's crazy. Yeah, it's nutty. It's uh it's a nutty, a nutty, nutty place where we live.

SPEAKER_02 3:42

Yeah, it really is. And the what you said about, you know, just feel like I'm in here working on my silly little spreadsheets. I have gone through those phases of God, like why am I like what about this does matters? There are, you know, and um it's shifted certain parts of how I think about my practice because I started out life as a very serious rule follower. And over time I've shifted that. I still I like rules when they're good rules and smart and actually like they're there for a reason and they protect people. And you know, I'm very anti the stupid ones. Um of which there are many. Um, and so I've I've become over time less like, oh, but it's a rule, I must follow it, and more like, well, let's consider like why it's a rule and you know, what what are the impacts of not following it and all or following it. Um but even with that background of like love rules when they're smart, and I am a lawyer, there are certain things about my practice where I'm like, why does this matter? Like, I understand we have all these laws that say you have to do it this way, this way, and this way, like putting aside that a lot of those laws are antiquated and didn't know about the internet yet and things like that. Um but I just end up being like, who cares about any of this process? Like, especially when I think about I've had a particularly busy week this week. It's kind of like, you know, there are some weeks where clients are quieter, and then some weeks where like everyone wakes up at the same time with all their priorities, and I'm like, ah, okay, great. Yeah. And I've I've learned to be like, this is good. This means like, yay, I've got clients and they want to talk to me and they want me to do their work. Woohoo! And I'm like, um, but it has also, because of that overload, been a week of I there's just no way to move as fast as in theory. I want to be able to move and um and get everything done as perfectly and all of those things. And and then at the beginning of, and so I was kind of that's how the week started already. This was also last week. Um, and then I had this moment of receiving a message. I have a whole complex um history, uh health history that I share more about on other socials. And I get messages from people from all around the world just randomly telling me how much what I share helps them and like tremendously, like they go back to their lives because of the things that I share. And that stuff to me is like what actually matters. And so I got one of these messages from someone of you know, how much that content has helped her symptoms go away, and she just has like this one thing left, but like my account has changed her life. And I'm like, okay, so you know what? I'm a little slower on some other things that I'd prefer. And like, is everything going exactly the way I want it to? Like almost, but like there's always that, you know, perfectionist mindset of like, but there's so much more room for improvement. But then it's like, well, am I gonna remember at the end of all of this which emails I responded to the fastest? And like, did I win the speed awards? No, it's did I help people? Did I show up with kindness? Like, what real impact? And so when I think about the spreadsheets, I'm like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:17

I know, I know. Half of me was like, okay, well, at least I'm like doing something and I'm not spinning out, but it does feel a little stupid, so you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:30

I think for me, I then just try to like think about the balance of it and make sure, and I feel like you at least from the outside, it seems like you've mastered as much as one can that, which is one of the reasons that I'm face.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

I have not mastered the balance, so I don't know if we need to hang up now.

SPEAKER_02 7:51

Well, let's we can get into what is what is balancing. What I mean is you have all these, you know, silly little spreadsheety things, but then you bring so much good humanity and values into the world. And if at the end of the day you're still like, I spent so much time on spreadsheets, which is the stuff we tend to checkbox and count. Yeah, but then if you can also be like, Well, I don't even, you know, all these posts that I publish to bring people together and bring kindness in the to the world and offer free support to people in the context in which you do that, you're not that's not a checkbox, but that's a a version of finding some balance. It that's the side that matters, and then the spreadsheets help to facilitate that because people still need the spreadsheets.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

Yeah, I mean the spreadsheets and other things is what gets me paid. So you know, so I need to do that. Yeah, it's always hard for me to sit and listen to people say nice things about me. So that could be what you're seeing right now.

SPEAKER_02 9:01

I could not relate to that more. That may be something that I maybe I have a um a focus on that in the podcast, um, of just like forcing people to sit through it and then have to learn from that because I am with you. It is hard, and but it's it's a I think it's a problem that it's so hard for us. Um we don't benefit from it.

SPEAKER_01 9:31

I I hear everything you're saying.

SPEAKER_02 9:34

It's not you can tell someone else the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 9:37

Sure, yes, 100%. Where I'm like, oh, I don't really know if like my posts are like making that big of an impact, like uh you know it's okay.

SPEAKER_02 9:49

So yeah, we can talk about that. Um, and that's very interesting, actually, that you're not really sure. So I yeah.

unknown 9:59

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

Do you do you not think so? Um I think there, I think there are times so because I think I'm in this like down day, there are definitely moments where I'm like, oh, I revert back to like they're just silly little LinkedIn posts and like like so what people like them. Yeah. What so what? You know. Um there are other days where I'm like, oh my gosh, LinkedIn has really changed a lot of things, uh, most things for me in my life. Let me rephrase my writing of which I have been able to post on LinkedIn and the things that I decide to write about have changed things for me and and provided access and connection to other people, um, where I feel like I have been able to build a little bit of a community, but I don't know. Today I'm like, I don't fucking know. Like, I don't know. I don't know. Maybe they're just stupid little LinkedIn posts. Um so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:01

I think that makes this a perfect day to have this conversation because I think those of us in the legal industry in particular, in whatever role that is, tend to be so good at putting on a show of, yeah, I've got it all wrapped up. I know what I'm doing, and everything's you know perfect and shiny and it has a nice bow. And that's not the reality. And a big reason that I'm that I launched the Wellness Esquire initially and that I'm doing this podcast is to highlight the real stories. It's just nobody nobody has their shit together.

SPEAKER_01 11:35

Like literally nobody.

SPEAKER_02 11:36

Exactly. And people need to know not all the time. Yeah, no, not all the time on you know, a day here, a day there, you know, this hour over there, that hour over there, right? But not all the time consistently. And I've watched people's eyes light up and people just change and turn into themselves when they discover that other people have something they're struggling with too, and that they're not alone in the thing they thought they were alone in. And I think it's probably optimal to have these kinds of conversations on days when people are like, I don't know, does anything I do matter?

unknown 12:12

Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

Not yet. That's I'm like, ah, yeah. Um so I yeah, this is a good day. It's a good day, it's a good day for that. But I I I don't I think for me it's more like I don't think I'm I think the reason that people resonate with the content that I put out is because I'm like telling the hard stories or the things that didn't work well, or yeah, I am not a master of balance. So there's I'm a parent, so there's like no way I can be the master of balance. It's somebody's losing. It's usually me, but somebody is losing at some point, at some part of the day.

SPEAKER_02 12:55

I think we probably want to throw away the word balance, anyways, because that to me indicates that there's like a perfect ratio that you're trying to achieve. And if you haven't, then you failed. And the idea of I I have resonated more with the idea of integration and got all these zillions of things going on. And for me, uh at least again, most recently, the goal has been just well, two things. One, how do I fit the work stuff into my life and not the other direction? And when those things do need to kind of be going on at the same time, which is absolutely the case frequently, how do I make all that work and do it sustainably and not lose my mind? And then when I do start to lose my mind, how am I able to recognize it sooner than I would have historically? And I can fairly quickly start to make some adjustments. And it is, you know, a work in progress.

SPEAKER_01 13:55

Yeah, and there's different season, there's different seasons of your of your life too, right? And and what that looks like and and all the things. Well, I'm like, I know we jumped right into right into everything.

SPEAKER_02 14:07

That's exactly why I mean I told you that I record from the start because I never want to lose the magic. Um, because I've had so many conversations where I'm like, man, I wish I'd recorded that. And I was just I was listening to a conversation that you had on your really phenomenal podcast um with Jonah and said, you know, man, we should have recorded our pre-processed prep session.

SPEAKER_01 14:27

Yeah, we should have recorded the prep session for sure. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 14:31

Yeah. And, you know, I when I started posting on LinkedIn about lawyer well-being um a few years ago, it opened me up to lawyers and people in the industry who were not robots and who were talking about the real stuff. And so I started to find all these people that I was like, oh, I can be myself with you and I can talk about the real things. And wow, it's there are more of us out there than I knew. And so when I started having these conversations, um, it was so freeing for me. And I felt like, man, how why couldn't I have found them sooner? Um, and then when I would find someone kind of new to that space and trying to find the people talking about it, like they didn't know anyone was talking about it. And I just thought, well, if I had a microphone in front of me and whoever I'm talking to, and then I, you know, turned it around and let other people listen, more people would know that people are having this these conversations. And it's okay. It's more than okay. It's it's it's so needed. Um and the I don't know what initial post on LinkedIn brought us together, but you fell into the kind of vibe that I was going for.

SPEAKER_01 15:51

Um yeah, I feel like it most likely has would probably be me seeking people out. Like it's usually me connecting with maxing out the LinkedIn connection requests per week. Um almost three years ago at this point now. It'll be well, it's I'm rounding up. It's two and a half years we've been in business. And so a year before that, when I knew that we were gonna launch, nobody else knew, but my partner and I knew, my business partner I knew, I was terrified that I was gonna become a vendor and that people wouldn't want to talk to me anymore. So for me, the and I had no we had no book, we have no book of business because we were in-house legal marketers and you're not allowed to talk to clients, and we had no investments, and we really had no like capital. So I the only thing that I thought I could do in stealth mode was start to build my LinkedIn presence and start sending connection requests to people while I was still employed by the firm because then like I'm not selling anything, and that people would be more likely to accept my request when I worked at the firm versus me becoming a consultant. And so that's probably honestly like my LinkedIn following like started because I was like obsessively sending out the LinkedIn connection requests. It's 250 a week, in case you're wondering, right? As you can send out 250 connection requests a week, and you hit the limit, LinkedIn will say, You can't send any more. We want you to pay, like you're obviously using this for sales, right? So I was just doing that for like an entire year, like sending it out. I didn't even care. I did not like it was targeted, but yeah, it it was like legal marketers, other lawyers who were I thought were interesting, anybody in the legal space, connect, connect, connect, connect, connect, connect, connect, connect. I didn't care who they were, just right, because I needed the volume. I had 500 connections when we started. And now people have are following me now, right? Like, and I don't know if people like my content and they're following me now. Um, but I have over 20,000 followers now, like on LinkedIn. And that uh for a lot of people feels like I was nowhere and then all of a sudden I was everywhere, which is what someone actually said. I'm like, yeah, that's literally what happened, right? And so um so my whole point is that I most likely sent you a connection request.

SPEAKER_02 18:16

Well, if that's what happened, I'm glad that you did. Yeah. And because it something you did posted, whatever resonated. And then um more recently, I, you know, your posts continue to resonate, and so I started to stalk you a little. And you know, just so many of your posts really show who you are. And, you know, a couple your posts and your website, and we'll talk about stage. Um a couple of the things that stood out were your business website uh references you and your partner Jennifer, uh, that people can think of you as avocado toast, and love that. Just also because I love avocado to avocado toast, but because of the personality in that. And you've got these posts about like, you know, I put whipped cream in my coffee or something like that, and because I can do whatever I want. And also it's a new. And while those things might sound silly, and you might be like, yeah, why did I do that? To me, it's oh, it's people ready to be human beings in our industry, and that's who I'm looking to have part of my world. I don't fit into the whole robotic thing. And I really struggled for many years, feeling like, oh, there's a way to do things, and you have to wear a suit like this, and you have to have this kind of nail polish situation going on. And, you know, I remember finishing up law school and watching some of my classmates change what they did with their hair and their piercings and their clothes and their nail polish and all of that stuff because of the guidebook that we were given on like this is how you have to look to be a lawyer. And, you know, there were things that I also started to change about myself to fit in. And then at some point I'm like, uh this doesn't feel good. And so I loved finding people like you who are like, yeah, I'm gonna talk about putting whipped cream in my coffee and whatever else it is, because I get to just be me.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

Yeah, but it takes a long time. It took a long time for me to get there. Like I definitely fell into that same thing. I wore, you know, all black. I I was talking to my kids like about how many piercings I used to have in my ears. Like I, you know, not like that many, but like definitely had multiple like holes. And I had like, I forget what this is called, but I had this pierced, and I had this pierced, and I had all these earrings, and um, and I had like thought about getting my nose pierced and like all of these things, and my kids were like shocked. They're like, oh my gosh, like I can't believe this. And so they were like, Well, why didn't you do them? Like, why didn't you get your nose pierced? Why'd you take everything out? I'm like, Well, I needed a job, right? And so a lot of that I I think it's easy now for me to say, like, I can do whatever I want. Well, it is easy for me to say this now because I work for myself, I'm established, and I had basically got to a point of privilege where I could say, like, I don't want that anymore, and I'm gonna follow my own rules. I'm a white lady who lives on Long Island, who's normal, heteronormal, I disabled body, like all of the privilege, privilege, privilege, privilege, privilege, like all the things. And so it's easy for me to say, I'm gonna really lean into who I am, but I also recognize where I'm coming from. And so if I can do anything in this space, it's going to be using my platform. And that sounds like vomit inducing when I say that, using the platform that I have to like amplify other voices that maybe don't have that same privilege. And so I d I fell into all of those things like you wear a black suit. I was even told like you must wear a skirt. suit to interview like you can't wear pants and I went for one interview where the person was like a really they were kept telling me this person was a really slick litigator like very Mr. GQ slick litigator like you must like look perfect and I had like gotten my nails done in like red which was like very bold but I wore a black suit and red nails and apparently he noticed and was like oh I like that she takes risks and it was because of my fucking nail polish right and so but it was all calculated to fit into this corporate corporate mold and I was very happy to play in that space and move up and and big law allows you to do that. It's very lockstep in a lot of ways if you do this then you get more money and then you get more prestige and you get more power and um it's easy to get sucked into it's all of the people around you are all highly achieving anxious overworked you know we're all the same trauma uh bonded like personality and and I am not a lawyer and yet like you still kind of fall into that into that cycle uh until I didn't want to do it anymore. Really is like until I had reached the point of where I was tired of feeling stupid like just the way that people were speaking to me I gotten tired of that right like at what point do I get to say like no actually I do know what I'm talking about. Why are you speaking to me like that? And realized that it would never be enough no matter what I did for the company, for certain people and I wanted to be in charge of myself and the only way to be in charge of myself was to leave. And and to be fair I would have never left had Jen not come up with the idea.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

It was Jen's idea to launch the business I would have just kept going in this climbing the ladder making more money etc etc so I want to pause and back up a little bit and then kind of get back to this point. Can you walk me through the beginning of your career in a nutshell and kind of your experience in big law and in more detail what led you to to know that you knew what you were talking about and realized that you weren't being respected for that. And then what ultimately led to you and Jen launching stage and doing this.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

Yeah so I started in accounting um which is in marketing so always marketing and business development and had no idea like how great of a place I landed essentially like I started with a big four accounting firm and this is like in the days where like Monster was not I don't know if people are still using like Monster.com but that's where my job posting was for KPMG was on Monster. And a lot of people like who did you know? I'm like well I didn't know anybody I literally applied online probably because nobody else was applying online at that point. Like I'm getting to that age where like I'm old enough to be able to say like I think I stood out because no one was all online and I was their first marketing associate that they hired everybody else was directors. At that job I had no idea what I was doing I was actually stupid. I didn't know anything I didn't know anything. I didn't know how to inexperienced inexperienced I didn't know how to do anything they were not prepared for somebody so junior it was like an entire department of like very senior people from what I how I remember I was 22 years old everybody was like over the age of 40 I was like how do I how do I use a spreadsheet? I didn't know how to do anything. So I stayed there for a while and then the only reason that I fell into legal marketing and this is a lot of common people's stories is because somebody somewhere whispered they paid more money and that's literally I had very expensive college loans I had to pay and so I went and off to legal land I went and basically you get sucked in you never leave it's like the golden handcuffs like every other person I had some nice firms that I worked for. I worked for three different law firms I had some nice firms and I had some not so nice firms and the not so nice firms are really pretty terrible and the people that were there I naively thought the people who were there who were talking to the support staff in this like very negative toxic way, I thought they were only doing that to the support staff. And now having left big law I realized it wasn't just because you were not a lawyer they talked like that to everybody. But nobody was talking about it with each other. Right? So the marketers would talk about it with each other we knew but the lawyers weren't like oh yeah that partner is awful and that person talks like that to every single one of us not just you and so a lot of hostility would be brewing between departments where people are assuming things about other people like it was very much like marketing versus lawyers right uh them versus us and the lawyers would feel like we didn't know what they were having to go through and we felt the same way and it's just a lot of pressure on everybody to produce do it quickly do it correctly immediately and and just be better right with like no guidance just do exactly what I said without me telling you like it's not that hard. And so um that gets tiring right in terms of people not being appreciated people don't ask you how you are uh in like the one particular firm I was often the only woman in the room and now I'm in the support staff role and I was the youngest by a lot and there is this like sweetheart get us the papers that are printed out like take the notes and that's tricky when your like job like kind of is to take the notes right and so it was just this perpetual like well you obviously don't know what we're talking about because like you didn't go to law school so therefore you're stupid and also like anybody can do marketing it's like not that hard and like I'm gonna mock up everything that you're that you wrote anyway because it's really easy to write invitation copies. So like and this is stupid and like you don't know a client doesn't like this blah blah blah. So it was like that over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. It gets tiring and exhausting and people burn out and once I left that firm and went to another firm it was like much nicer and all the things and so how did I know that I knew what I was talking about um I mean there's definitely still moments right now where I'm like do I know what I'm talking about like uh I think everyone struggles with that a little bit at some point on some days uh it didn't really click really really really click that I truly know what I hope we're having curse on this I've dropped a lot of F bombs absolutely go for it like that I know what the fuck I'm talking about yeah uh until I left right like I was confident in my abilities I knew I was a really good business developer I was always promoted I would always move around and and get more senior positions and all the things but I think for me the really turning moment was all the tactics that we would say to try when I worked in big law as a business developer. I then had to do them for myself when we left right and so much of the structure is that the business developer is there to support the lawyer of course but you were never allowed to talk to their clients so you didn't really know what was going on with their client. And so you would come up with ideas as an example and say like hey I think you should just like reach out and check in and say like hey how's it going or whatever. And they'd be like no that won't work for the client you don't know because you don't get to talk to them. I'm like I don't know if it always has to be that hard you have no idea general counsels are very busy. All of those things are true but also you can also just like check in and say what's going on. And so I started to try the tactics that I had been suggesting because I had nothing to lose literally I had no clients no money to like get in the door and so I tried it and it worked right like immediately. I'm like oh actually it's not as big and bad and scary out here in business as people say it is particularly if you are leading with kindness and you're being curious and not pitching on people and not I'm not calling you up and say what can you give me I like it's been you know what it's been two months since you've sent me any work. It's you're due you're due for work now. Give it to me which is kind of the conversations that I used to have when we were in house and so that shift was like very eye-opening and so now in my marketing strategy for my business it's I know what worked when I was in big law for business development and marketing for lawyers. And I also know what works for how I build my book. And I have to do the same thing I have to do the service delivery and the business development just like a lawyer does and figuring out the time management and coming up with pricing and all the things that are frustrating and take a lot of time but I have to do it for myself. So this is what works for me and this is what worked in house so you can decide now what would you like to do and people are like okay I'll try that.

SPEAKER_02 32:05

When Jen came to you with what seemed like a crazy idea for the two of you going out and launching your own business together. Yeah. And you got to a point of yes did you know at that point that the values and qualities you just talked about with kindness and empathy and um all the rep did you know that that was going to be part of it.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

So when did you realize how key that was yeah so so we were three and now we're two so I always feel like I need to like say that there used to be three of us. And we worked together for uh about a year in stealth mode on what we thought the business was going to be I did we did say human we did want it to be about connection didn't really connect and click for me until we launched and like we wanted to be people first we wanted it to be about listening we wanted it to be different. I I was very burnt out from big law and so I don't know if we were saying kindness in that way but that's really what we were getting to being curious being open minded like all the things that you hear in big law about best practices for building client relationships but what does that actually look like you know and so as soon as I was set free essentially and decided that I could write whatever I wanted that's kind of when everything changed for me personally.

SPEAKER_02 33:42

Were you able so when you when you noticed that things changed and you started posting on LinkedIn and showing your personality and and um and bringing your values into your business were you able to see or how are you able to see the impact for lawyers on working with them in this way so it's easy so our one of our services is one-to-one coaching for business for lawyers, right?

SPEAKER_01 34:10

And um and I say coaching but really it's we become that like fractional marketing and business development professional for that individual lawyer, whatever that lawyer needs. And so lawyers would say okay I've been following you for like six months or seven months or eight months like I've been following you for a long time and like this post really did it and now I'm like ready. And so I think the thing that's always really kind of funny or ironic for me is that we have a lot of big law lawyers are our clients and they'll say things like well my clients aren't on LinkedIn I'm like okay sure tell me why and they're like well I just don't think that they're there. Cool. And how did you find me again? And they're like LinkedIn like uh uh and they're like but like I can't write like personal stuff like like you can because like I work for a big firm and I think there's like parts of that but I'm also like well how did how did I stand out to you compared to everyone else and they're like oh like your personal stories I'm like uh uh cool cool so so that's like the big shift and you know you have to toe the line like I get that and and I work with our clients to do that right where you can tell stories of what it's like for you or you can tell stories about successes for your client in ways that's not like giving away information that's not breaching confidentiality that's not going to make your law firm mad there are ways to do that and the more people lean into that and get comfortable and then they start to see results and those results are not I saw you on LinkedIn and I'm hiring you and here's a five million dollar like IP I don't know M A IPO whatever right like it's like somebody reaches out to you you get on a podcast you are able to you just have exposure to more things um for example I've been posting posting posting posting posting and somebody from Bloomberg has reached out to me to write for things American lawyer has reached out to have me quoted on stuff I've written for PLI because I they said oh Megan writes on LinkedIn and we like her writing and we know she's a good writer which again is a conversation that I'm like I'm not a good writer for like LinkedIn but not for like PL Why are you underselling yourself? We'll have to come back to this I'm like but those things would not have happened had I not written on LinkedIn right and so now I have that access and when our clients come to us I'm like well I happen to know the editor of Bloomberg shall we pitch this right and so that's all because of the platform where I've shared stories about putting whipped cream in my coffee or how horrible it was when you know I had to hide my pregnancies at Epiclaw or giving my platform over to other underserved communities those are all have sort of nothing to do with legal but also everything to do with legal they have everything to do because getting clients is about relationships and maintaining clients is about relationships.

SPEAKER_02 37:25

And you know no one teaches us that in law school yep but you know I mean I I feel like this is a thing that people say all the time but maybe don't truly take in you know people want to work with people they like yeah people want to work with people with whom they share values and you know who they trust well how do you know any of that if you don't let people know you how do how can people develop a relationship with you if you close yourself off right yeah it's it's tricky particularly when you feel like you have to fall in in line and a lot of people will come to me because they feel like traditional business development doesn't work for them.

SPEAKER_01 38:11

And so I'm like okay can you please define how define traditional business development and they're like well like I don't like to golf I don't want to I have young kids I can't go late night to cocktails I don't really want to travel around the country and go to conferences and I'm like so don't like I'm like the worst business sometimes I'm the worst business. I'm like then don't do those things. Right. But it's about finding something you like to do.

SPEAKER_02 38:36

Well you're I so much of what I hear of the way you show up with clients is you give people permission to be themselves and to do things the way they actually want to and to stop feeling trapped by what they're they've been told or led to believe is the only way. And even though I think more and more you know lawyers understand that there are you know different uh different ways of structuring a firm and you know doing business development it's one thing to kind of know that in theory it's another thing to be in an environment where you you know maybe you don't love it, but that is where you are right now and to figure out well this isn't good for me but I'm here right now and for whatever reasons maybe I really can't I'm not I haven't left and maybe I can't right now. So how do I start to crawl out of this and find myself and do this in a way that actually works for me. And if they haven't been exposed to someone who's authentic and saying you can actually do this NBU and it can work and it can work better than whatever you're doing right now.

SPEAKER_01 39:40

Right. And maximize your time right so I do get a decent amount of parents and you don't have that much time. If you're gonna go to a conference we need to make sure it works for you. Right. And so then how are you making the most out of that conference attendance and and what does the plan look like and like all of those things are the like the tri the traditional business development but I think sales gets a really bad rap for for law for lawyers and they're like I don't want to be salesy I don't want to be pushy I don't want to be like pitching pitch slapping in people's like LinkedIn like well don't have an agenda just try to get to know people and see where where it leads and it might not lead anywhere or could two years later. I mean I have a lot of stories like that where people have reached out and it didn't really go anywhere two years ago and people are like I remember that you like referred me or you did this like thing for me for free and now I can hire you and they have and so it like always comes back.

SPEAKER_02 40:42

So if you give more than you're taking it always comes back some of your posts that I've resonated with the most have been when you're kind of um sharing with the group the things that most people certainly lawyers and others um you know in the profession and outside of the profession will say and things like you know I am not enough and I need to earn my rest and uh you know oh you know not everyone's mad at me right now. People liked that one.

SPEAKER_01 41:15

Yeah nobody's mad at you yeah people like that one.

SPEAKER_02 41:18

Well these are all the sorts of things that you know so many of us either we have these thoughts either sporadically or consistently but we don't tend to talk about. And once you find out wait other people are always worried you know you're worrying that your clients it's like you're in trouble somehow or wait I can't rest because I haven't done everything perfectly that I could possibly do and I will never be enough because I you know what is enough so those are conversations that you're having with your clients how do you navigate they start they start by myself actually perfect so talk about it when it starts with yourself how do you navigate that with yourself yeah in the middle with your client yeah no email not okay so I yeah most of those things do start with things that I'm telling myself where I'm like I think there's there's the reason that it resonates is because there is some reality in like nobody is mad at you.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

Well the reason we're all terrified that people are mad at us is because there's there's been a lot of times where people are mad at us at law firms in particular right you didn't do this right you didn't do it fast enough uh the tone of which we're receiving emails like please fix this is my favorite PLS FX right like you know everyone period yep and you're like obviously I'm getting fired right and so like that fear is not from nowhere it's not like we're all just like crazy psych psychotic people who are like making this up there there is a conditioning that has happened which is why it resonates so well right like the fact that like it takes a lot of untraining and I'm still undoing it now even though it's been two and a half years that like my clients aren't mad at me right like what happens in the silence the gap that's where you have to retrain your brain and so that's like a lot of those conversations like will start with something that I'm having with myself and then I feel compelled to write it maybe in an obsessive way and then I'll write it and then people will resonate and then my clients will start to talk to me about it. Or kind of vice versa there will be instances where I keep hearing the same kind of thread throughout in the one-on-one conversations and then then I'll talk about it in that way. And so sometimes our like one on one sessions are like just mindset reshifts and like let's talk about sales in a different way can you talk to me about a time where you've just like built a relationship not with a client just in general have you ever built a relationship and they're like yeah of course right I'm like well then you know how to do it. And so it's just like a redirection I think people need a lot more individual support than their firms are giving to them, which is why our business exists. I mean, I was in-house, I know how hard it is. There's 40 marketing people. I worked in big, big firms. So it was lucky that we were a department of 40, maybe 50. Maybe you worked in a department where there's 80 marketing and business development people. But that also means there's probably 2,000 lawyers. Right. And so you're not getting to everybody. And you're also being told not to help everybody. Help the highest biller partners. And it's the people who are like not billing as much or like are trying to make partner. They're the ones who need the help. And that's the place I really like to spend, honestly, is those who want their own autonomy or like look open and looking to learn. It's the part that like becomes fun. And you guys can we can collaborate together and come up with all different things.

SPEAKER_02 44:56

So you have a focus on lawyer well-being and professional well-being in general. How do you bring that awareness into the way you coach your clients so that they understand that you can design your career in a way that works for you and you can build this incredible book of business and you can also do it while taking care of yourself and be a part of that?

SPEAKER_01 45:23

Yeah. I I think what's been really interesting is that so I have a couple of established partners who are who are saying, like, I don't want to be reliant on other people anymore. And that's why I need to get my own book. And I so I think financial freedom is a big piece of surrounding yourself with client, at least if you're going to be working this hard, I guess my point is if you're gonna work this hard, like let's surround yourself with clients that you actually like and you enjoy being around. Like if you have to take time away from your family, and we all do, right? You have to do stuff you don't want to do, and that's fine. Like at the beginning, I don't really want to be spending time doing spreadsheets. But there are things you have to do. And so if you're going to do those things and you're spending taking time away from the things that are important, your family or your dog or your yoga or your travel or your health, whatever, then I believe that you should be able to surround yourself with at least people that appreciate you, like you, you like them, you want to help them succeed, instead of like banging your head on the table every time you see an email from that person come into your inbox, right? And so that's a focus, right? And so how do you surround yourself with people that you like and that like you? You have to find commonality, and how do you do that? LinkedIn is a big piece of it for us, but also finding things that you have in common with other people, right? So you maybe you go and sit quietly and do a knitting class together, which is something that I've had lawyers do. Like that was like that was their networking thing. They went and invited people to do activities with them that are not cocktails, if that's not your thing, right? Go and do something crazy and wild and wild, like knitting quietly. Just do something different that will like that will resonate with you and and fuel kind of both parts, right? You can be two things at once. You can do things for fun, which is something that can comes up a lot. They're like, well, like I I have this, I'm on this board, but like it hasn't resulted in any work yet, and like really not a lot of good people like on it for referral opportunities, and da da da, like on and on on about all the reasons why they're on this board that they love, but it hasn't resulted in anything. And maybe I should quit. I'm like, okay, you could just be on the board because you like it for fun, for funsies. It's usually this conversation where they're like, What so I mean that becomes a conversation as well, right? Like, not every single thing that you do has to result in something immediately or has to be tied to work every single day. You could just be on a board because you fucking like it. There's that. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 48:20

It's it's honestly people are like, What I mean, I'm I say that jokingly, but I've my husband has had to teach me about fun.

unknown 48:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:30

I'm still working on fun.

SPEAKER_02 48:31

Yeah, I've gotten much better, but I am still learning.

SPEAKER_01 48:37

Yeah. You could just do it for fun. Uh so that's been fun. Also been fun, right? Where I'm like, you could just do it because you like it. It's a wild concept. I know.

SPEAKER_02 48:47

Well, it's it's wild that I I think a lot of us still even have to go a like a level below and and figure out, well, what does liking it feel like? Yeah. Like how do you even identify what a hobby is and what just feels good, and how to separate out from the things that you know can be so easy to you know grow accustomed to that are super negative, and we just don't know how to extricate ourselves from. Yeah. And learn that there's something on the other side called, you know, fun and joy, and that's available to us. And that that's really those are important things to experience to actually be good at our jobs.

SPEAKER_01 49:34

I know it's really hard, particularly when like I had a conversation with somebody yesterday who is a new mom, and she's like, you know, I I don't know if I really want to do like lunch meetings, and everyone's telling me I should do lunch meetings to network. And you know how many six-minute blocks I can fit in one lunch meeting? I'm like, yeah, I do, right? Like I understand it, and it's hard, and you start to that's how you start thinking because you've been trained that way, right? And you're sitting on the soccer field and you're like, this is how many six minute, how many times could this fit into how many hours I could have been billing instead of sitting here watching my kids soccer? Right, like that starts to filter into people's brains. And it's hard. That's hard to to get away from when every single minute is literally like ticking away and and counting and costing you costing money or costing or should be costing money. No time for joy, right, when you're charging in six-minute blocks.

SPEAKER_02 50:29

So if you're comfortable, yeah, yesterday you posted about suicide prevention and awareness, yeah, and you shared your own story and you shared it in the context of lawyer well-being and well-being in the profession. Do you mind sharing your story and the way you that experience and that connection has led to your view on well-being and mental health and taking care of ourselves and each other in general, and then especially in the context of our industry, where we know, I mean, we've got stats that tell us what you know what you don't need stats to tell you because we see it in front of our own eyes. But people are really not often doing okay. And yet, you know, the the change is really, really slow.

SPEAKER_01 51:23

Yeah. So yesterday's post, um, and I don't know when this will come out, but yesterday's post was in connection with World's World Suicide Prevention Day or Awareness Day. Um, I think there's also like uh September's awareness month as well. Uh so my content again, my content, my writing is in a lot of ways when people when people are like, oh, I read your post. I'm like, oh, which one? Um, because it feels like my diary, right? Like it is very personal.

SPEAKER_02 51:54

Oh, it's like journaling, often for me too.

SPEAKER_01 51:57

100% is journaling. And I had been thinking about that topic where my my girlfriend in high school died. And I had been thinking about it for probably two and a half years, where I was like, I feel like this is a story that like I want to share, but like also like why? Like I why would I write that? And um it's not really connected to business, and and so like, do I really need to share every single piece of me, right? And so there was a lot of back and forth, and and I don't know if like even yesterday's post really did justice for what it's it's limited characters, right? And like the extent of which like I probably could go deeper. Um but that took a long time to like come out, right? And I think there are so many just even having that experience, and I had actually had multiple experiences in high school, but that was like the closest one. Having that experience and carrying that around for a while, I think you just don't know what people are going through, either having experienced it or the person who is suffering, right? And I just turned 40, and I think a lot of that is reflective as well, where oh my gosh, like that was such a long time ago, and we were just babies and we didn't know anything, and nobody was talking about that then, right? And the mental health crisis for the legal community is so high and so bad, and I I don't really think I really understood the extent of it until again I left. And because I didn't work for a firm, now I have I think people are more comfortable telling me things that they just didn't when we worked together, right? And I also think again, there's a privilege that I have this like large number of people following me, so people will I think read my stuff. Again, I don't know who's actually reading it, right? Like thank you. And so I felt like okay, well, this is a good way to share my story in a way that is real, it happened to me, and bring people together. And I think what was I mean, I mean, it's heartbreakingly sad is that so many people were like, I was also 17 when my friend died, and like I was 18 when my friend died, right? And so there's a lot of people like you know, commenting, and that's shitty that we all have this in common and we're all suffering. And so it might you might think twice. I think the part for me in terms of like what kept coming up at a very high level, like surface level, would be people being like, Oh my god, I'm working so much, like I'm just like killing myself over this document, right? Like people say things like that, right? And and I remember feeling hearing that at like in the office and being like, You have you don't even know who you're saying this to, right? Like, like I have actually a personal experience with this, and I don't really you're not killing yourself over this document. Please stop, right? And so it's just like that, like small things that can add up for people. And yes, there could be word police who come out and be like, you can't say anything now, blue, all those things. But I think there is some like sensitivity for people who are truly suffering, and I think that's really what's happening, is that people are really, really suffering. I am not equipped to to deal with those people's emotional, you know, well-being. But if I can raise awareness and whatever social media platform that I have built for myself, then I feel like that's the impact that I can have. And it is the piece that brings me the most joy, honestly, is my silly little posts on LinkedIn and bringing people together and using my voice to talk about things that maybe others won't.

SPEAKER_02 56:04

Thank you for doing that because you know, you said you're not you you went back and forth deciding, thinking about whether it was a a post that you wanted to share and wondering, you know, well, is this really actually related to business at all? And I I think it's very much related to business because humans conduct business. And if those humans aren't okay, that's a problem that we need to pay attention to. And we know in this industry and and beyond that people are not okay. And but when we don't talk about it and we make it seem like these things aren't happening, we don't help anyone. But you know, you may never know who saw your post or who sees your posts um and you know whose life you've changed or or just impacted tremendously, you don't you don't need to have those numbers. Right. But there's no way you're not having that impact because even everyone who commented on and liked that post, and everyone who saw it and didn't have any sort of obvious reaction sees that there's someone out here saying, I've had this experience, and while so many other people have too. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:24

Yeah. And I think it's it's it's hard to, it's hard to, it's hard to carry that around. And and you know, even this morning, so if somebody was like, Oh, I saw you posted it, because I had been talking about like maybe I feel like this is something I need to get out and I have to post it. I'm like, how do you feel? I'm like, when I posted it yesterday, I was like, I didn't feel anything. I feel like that's done. It's like let me see the likes and the you know, it's it's easy to get into the like engagement vanity metrics, and even over something that's like as heavy as that. But then today I was like, I'm very cranky, I'm really irritable. Like, I think there was like residual, you know, having going back to that place and thinking about it, and and you know, there's definitely even a concern of me writing about it. I'm like, actually, am I making this worse by not like, is it the right words? Did I not write it properly? Is there like, should I put like trigger warning in the top of it? Like, there's a lot of mindfulness that I try to bring towards stuff that's serious that I'm not just like posting and being like reckless poster, right? Um so it's not easy, it's not easy. It's it's not easy. And there's definitely topics that I probably should write about and I don't, and topics that I miss, and you know, it's hard to balance all of that and where my emotional bandwidth can be, just to look at everybody's response to that. And um even when I'm trying to do something nice, this is a completely sidestep. But like I posted probably a couple of weeks ago, I gave away a coffee. Did you see this? Okay, so I gave away a couple of this. So I did coffee, I did a coffee gift card. I've done this before. This is probably the third time that I've done it. It's like the virtual, like pass-on random act of kindness, right? And so there was like it this one went crazy. I think because I had a better hook for the opener than some of the other ones, to be honest. But and there was like hundreds of people who commented and liked it, and people sent me notes that said like I used the cup, like I used your gift card. Um, some people were saying that they were without a job and it was like a nice treat that they were able to get it. And so like that part like felt really good. So there's hundreds of people, it went viral, and there was one comment that made me so mad out of all of these, and um, that was like, she's just doing this for like the um like the traffic, right? Like she's just doing this for the traffic. And I was like, thought about deleting it, and then I decided that it was best to like let the clown like be visible, right? And so, but I couldn't stop thinking about that one comment, the one negative comment over and over and over again. And so then the following week, I decided that I would use the negative comment to drive traffic to my web to my page by having other people promote their business. And so I got another viral post out of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:24

I remember seeing that and loving how you handled that because what you it wasn't just that you gave people an opportunity to promote themselves. My recollection of it was you were saying tag people who are doing something awesome. And it was an opportunity for people to shout out other people and help other people get business and get awareness and acknowledgement. And that's such a phenomenal thing that we should all be doing more of and to recognize what happens when we boost each other up. And this grumpy negative clown really, I mean, you should thank him.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:02

Maybe I'll drop them a note. Thanks for the viral two pieces.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:06

Because it actually led to like a really nice love fest on that other post. Yes. Because, you know, yes, we are often connecting through the magic of LinkedIn, and that's amazing. And, you know, there's so much value that comes from the way we connect.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:23

But it can also end up feeling really static. And that I felt like turned into this kind of fun hangout moment, even though everyone's, you know, behind their screens in different parts of the world. And how great. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:37

And it was nice to see a lot of the same, like maybe I thought it was nice to see a lot of the same names. So, like, people like, because I'm like, oh, shout out somebody. You're right. It was shout out people that like are doing something awesome, a colleague, an employ like a helper, whatever, right? And um, a lot of the same, a lot of the people were tagging a lot of the same names. And so that was kind of fun to see like that. People were like, oh my gosh, this person is great, like over and kind of over and over and over again. And so it it was it was good. So hopefully it drove some business. And um it can be really easy. Like that didn't tell that much of a story. I didn't really share that much personal, right? And it like boosted other people with literally connecting people. It's like simple.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:19

Yeah. Well, I don't know if you even recognize how much of a community you're building around the the way that you do marketing and business development and the way that you lead all of that with kindness and compassion and empathy and values and humanity and authenticity. And you're bringing together all these phenomenal people who share those values and also who want to lift everybody up. So thank you for doing that because I think our we really need that in our world. And I hope you recognize also that that is what you're doing. And um, and I'm sure I'm not the only person who would agree with that. Is there anything else you that's where I'm like, oh no, we well, we maybe part two will be you learning how to take a compliment?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:09

Yeah, this is where I can literally see like my face color um increasing in redness.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:15

Were you always like that, or did your experience in big law make it harder for you to acknowledge your power?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:27

Huh, I don't know. I would probably have to unpack that some more with probably a or something. Um, have I always been like that? You know, I think I think what it is is more that when I hear people saying stuff that's like, oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:51

This is the only time you're silent, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:55

Let me think about this. Um I don't think it's that hard. And I don't mean that to be just like I I don't mean it to be like I appreciate people saying nice things about me, and I but the things that they're picking out, I'm like, well, you could write like nice things on LinkedIn too, and like, and so I'm like, what I'm doing is like not that special. Um, and I'm not the first person to like come up with kindness, right? There's so many beautiful books out here and podcasts and and like nicer people than me. Like I don't volunteer really. Like, I'm not I'm just like writing nice shit on LinkedIn, right? And so I'm like, am I really that nice? I don't fucking know, right? And so I'm like, I think that's why it's a little um dislike. I think that's why I dismiss it as as special because it feels like if I I'm just like a regular person. If I can do it, then like anybody can do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:55

So it would be hard for me to relate to that more. I really relate to that so much. I have learned to have the following perspective we live in a really complex world that is often filled with so much pain and people moving so fast and just forgetting to show up with like the bare minimum kindness. And just because everyone really could do a little better or much better doesn't mean that a lot of people are. And so when someone does, it's nice. And I I think sure, some of these things may, you know, it I think it's easy to feel like, well, but the you know, if everyone did that, we wouldn't acknowledge it. But unfortunately, not everyone is doing some of these things. And I think we want to acknowledge it and benefit from acknowledging it because it says, hey, this makes us feel better. And perform better. So look what that person's doing. How else? How can I emulate that? And I think when we're able to acknowledge what you're able to put into the world and the kind of beautiful domino effect that comes from that, then someone else can say, Oh, maybe I can just write nice things about other people too. Or maybe when someone comments something ridiculously stupid and negative on my post, maybe I'll take a key from Megan and instead of just bashing the person back, turn it into something kind. Not every it doesn't occur to everyone to do that. So when you you're an example.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:42

Oh well, okay. Thank you for that. And it took a long time too, right? Like I'm not saying like I my entire corporate life was full of kindness. Like I definitely did shitty things and responded nastily, and and you fall into the trap of like, well, this person was an asshole to me, so I'm gonna be a fucking asshole back. And they didn't answer me for five hours, so I'm gonna do the same thing, and blah blah blah blah blah blah, right? And and that's like where I had it, had it. I just was like, I don't want to do this anymore. I'm tired, I'm exhausted. And um if I'm going to like literally blow up my life and give up comfortable salary and and have to like come out here and like hustle in the streets, then it's gonna be something that makes me feel good. And I'm gonna surround it myself with people that I like, and it's gotta be human first. I'm just that's it has to be that way.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:33

Well, from that last bit that you shared, it also sounds like now that you're in charge of yourself and get to work with the kind of clients that you like working with and you do work that feels more innately good to you. It feels it seems like it's easier for you to show up that way. And when you were go figure, in an environment where you were completely burnt out or being treated like shit, and just you know, were miserable a lot of the time. Shockingly, you weren't always showing up as your best self. I know, weird.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:04

Strange. It's really weird how that happens.

unknown 1:08:07

Yeah, bizarre.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:08

Yes, yeah. It's a lot it definitely feels more mission-based, purpose driven to to be able to help. And I'm doing the same type of work now as I was before, but it feels completely different.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:20

Yeah, and it seems like you also feel in certain ways like a different human because you just Oh my god, I'm a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:27

Yeah, a completely different person. Completely different person. It'd be like I was like a freshman and now I'm a graduated senior who's like just completely different.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:37

How how fast was that transition for you? Just the minute we left, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:43

Like, so it's been two and a half years.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:46

Two and a half years. I had a similar experience when I launched my own firm. I just felt like I went from you know, needing permission for things, whether I really did or not, but just feeling like, well, I'm in someone else's framework and I don't want to do it that way, but I have to do it that way. And if I don't do it that way, I really don't want to get in trouble. And I think this is wrong, or all of those things. And then once I left and was just completely in charge, I was like, wow, I'm so free. And I grew so much faster than I ever did when I was kind of under someone else's reins and found myself in ways I didn't even know was possible.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:24

Yeah. It it sounds really like um like it's full of cliches, but when I the first year of business, I did meet and greets with anybody who would meet with me. So that resulted in a thousand meet and greets. Literally, I had a thousand meet and greets for the first year. I had like four or five a day, and then I did the math or whatever, something like that. And so somebody in that thousand said, like, you will nothing shows you more of who you are as a person than launching your own business. And I remember being like, Okay, and it's 100% true because you have to trust yourself, you have to rely on yourself, you have to figure out how you're gonna deal with conflict if you have a partner, right? And this becomes your baby, becomes everything to you, at least for me. And then, like, what does that look like? And and so everything changed, everything changes about really stepping into being that owner's mindset and like what does that mean? And who what kind of owner do I want to be? And who am I as a person if I'm not part of this machine? I'm part of this new thing that I'm building and launching and and creating. And so, yeah, 100%. I think my business development skills are better. I don't think I would have been able to learn what I've learned in the last two and a half years if I stayed in any firm. And that's not the firm's fault. That's just this is trial and error, right? Like of really being thrown in the deep end and figuring it out.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:52

I love it. Yeah. Is there anything else you would like to share? We didn't even get into like the actual details about what you do with clients. Fine.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:02

I'll just I'll just yell at them. I basically just yell at people. No, uh, I'm like, yes, you don't do that. Don't do that. If you don't like it, don't do that.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:10

Um that's not yelling. That's again the permission for people to be themselves and understand that there's no box.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:17

There is no box. There is no box. You get permission to do whatever you want because we're actual grown-ups. Um, and I forget that sometimes. That's like we're grown-ups and you can do whatever you want. That is like the one benefit. That's what I tell my kids. The one benefit is that I'm a grown-up and I get to decide who I want to talk to and when I want to talk to them. So we get to be in charge of that. Like when you're a kid, you don't really always have that luxury. Um, is there anything else that I want people to know? Uh I don't know. So many things? I have no idea. We I've I could keep you on probably for another hour.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:50

Um we might need a part two, three, and four. Maybe five. Sure, sure. I can come back.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:57

I could come back on a day where I'm not like, uh, I suck. Everything I do sucks.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:02

No, but truly, I I love that that's how this conversation started.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:08

Because I mean, for the reasons I said at the outset, we're so good at pretending everything's okay. And it's just not always okay.

unknown 1:12:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:19

And I think there's so much value in in also in the way that we conduct business to be able to, you know, start out a meeting or podcast and saying, I'm actually having a hard time. Here's what's going on with me at home or personally.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:35

And, you know, here's what that might mean for timelines, deliverables, focus, attention, schedule, whatever that may be, or you know, whatever it is. And just to put that out there, because it happens to all of us, and pretending it doesn't does not benefit anybody.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:55

Yeah. Yeah. Everybody's everybody everyone struggles with their little imposter syndrome. I don't even know if it's imposter syndrome. It's just a down day. It's just like a down, down, down day. I don't do you remember that it's also September 11th? Yes, there's that. There's also that. Yeah, I'm like, I need to stay off social media. It's just like there's just like I'm anticipating having to respond to I'm sure my kids learned about it at school, so they're gonna come home and they probably want to ask me things, and you want to be available for them and making this space for that, and like you know, um so all the things. So the world has a lot going on. Things are hard. Yeah, things are hard. It's a lot of shit, and that's where we come back to being like, so I'm just gonna like input my little stupid spreadsheets and do my little stupid shit um while the world is on fire. And sometimes that's good. Sometimes you need that, and other times you go take a break outside.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:55

Yeah. And sometimes you do the spreadsheet outside.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:00

Yes, I know. That okay, so that is equivalent to I put whipped cream in my coffee because I forget to do that sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:08

To work outside or to put whipped cream in your coffee? To to like not be in my I am you too? No, not at all. I will tell you about my life. I so my husband and I a few months ago stopped living anywhere and we beach hop around the world and work from wherever we want.

unknown 1:14:26

That's me.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:27

Currently in St. Martin, headed to Tulume tomorrow. And even before we started to just beach hop, we lived in Santa Barbara, and I arranged my schedule so that most of the time I had a couple of days that were dedicated to like nonstop calls, and those I would be in my house. And the other days were my I work at the beach days because that is where I am most productive, and I have clients who would who would message me and just be like, Are you at the beach right now? Because you're so fast. Because that is just where I need sunshine to operate. That's my battery.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:08

So I know what I need to thrive the most and I go after it now.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:13

Yeah, yeah, now. No, I hear you. I I think there are like I'm gonna go to um like a Pilates bar class tomorrow at like 10 o'clock in the morning. And that is like feels very like in the middle of the day. I'm gonna go to a bar class. Yeah. So that's when you're in charge, you get to do that. Yeah, but I don't do that. Like, I don't that's I'm still working on that, right? Where I'm like, my bar class was sold out at seven o'clock in the morning, which is when I usually go because it's before work hours.

unknown 1:15:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:46

I could go at 10. Like you could. I know, and so I haven't, and now I'm going to tomorrow. So it's like what for you. I'm proud of you.

unknown 1:15:55

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:56

That's me being like wild, right? Like wild and crazy. I'm gonna go at 10 o'clock in the morning.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:01

So well, it it takes time, even I think we even once you're on your own, it takes time to realize what boxes you've put yourself into that don't actually need to be there. And I think you know, some kind of fudgy lines are good for just focus, but they can shift. And some of the ones that you used to benefit from or were forced into, like just they they can go away. Yeah, right. So you can do whatever you want. And you can do it. I'm gonna go crazy tomorrow. I'm gonna go crazy at my bar house. Yeah, and I think I'm post about it. There's a freedom there's a freedom that I think a lot of people don't even realize is available to them.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:54

Launching your business, I know to a lot of people, feels so daunting and feels like a thing other people do.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:02

Yeah, it still feels like that to me.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:05

You've done it though.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:06

I know, but I'm like, who is that person? Who is that person who launched a business? I don't know. Like, it's crazy. Do you feel like that?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:13

No, I totally own it. I cannot imagine a world in which I work for someone else ever again.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:18

Oh no, I can never go back, but I still am also like it's that person before who decided to do it. It's like I don't know her.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:30

I identify with myself in that way very strongly. And it's interesting, I didn't think long before I decided to do it. I just kind of decided and then really do you want to do this with me?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:43

And I was like, Yes. And she was like, Do you want to think about it? And I was like, Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:48

Yeah, and I I remember um I I decided really what happened was a client of mine texted me and said, People are always asking us who's our lawyer. And I just say, Ariella, but actually, what is the name of your firm? And I was like, Oh, I'll just launch my own firm and call it me. And I'd had loads of people, you know, I know plenty of people with their own firms, and not like I hadn't been exposed to it, and people had suggested that I do it. And I just hadn't felt right. I still felt kind of stuck in a box. I was thinking about going in-house. I had all these ideas. And then once it clicked, and I just realized, wait, I I could do it. I just did it. And then I told a friend of mine from law school, and then very shortly after, um, I said something to him about, you know, I launched my own firm. And he was like, what? And I was like, I thought I told you about that. And he said, Yeah, but you did it so fast.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:46

Like, how did this happen?

SPEAKER_02 1:18:47

You're like, so yeah, yeah, yeah, pretty much. Yeah. I'm so glad that I did it as fast as I did, because I've had to do a lot of work to shift from being a maladaptive perfectionist to an adaptive perfectionist. Have you heard those terms? That's that concept's been like game changing for me. Maladaptive is the, oh, I'm a total idiot because I didn't do that per perfectly. Sure. Um, and I just suck. And uh and like I'm so embarrassed for myself that I can't even look at how I made the mistake, so I can't even figure out how to learn from it because like I can't even face it myself, let alone for other people to know. That's one end of the spectrum. The other end is more aligned with the growth mindset.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:35

I'm gonna learn from this.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:37

And yeah, and it's it's um been so much healthier for me. But the pace with which I launched allowed me to just start and learn as I go. And every, you know, the some of the things that I'm doing now, it's actually all very similar to how I started in terms of structure. I dropped the billable hour, I do mostly subscription and um project-based, it's fantastic. But just like the details have shifted because I didn't know what I was doing then. And I couldn't have thought my way to where I am now. I had to try it. And so that where I was with my kind of perfectionism, my relationship with perfectionism allowed me to just jump in, start, and figure it out as I go, and be like, oh wow, I can actually do that comfortably, and I don't have to know everything perfectly before I begin.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:30

Yeah. Fascinating. Yeah. And it's always gonna shift and change. I think that's the hardest part about running your own business, is that there's so the everyone kept telling us the first year is the hardest. And so we went through that, and then now we're then it was like, well, actually, like yours the third year is really the hardest, and we're coming up on the third year, and then I'm talking to people like actually the fifth year is the hardest. I'm like, is it though? Or is it just like every year? It's in hindsight, you're like, you hit the next milestone, and there's another another thing to learn. That's it. Like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:04

It makes me think a bit of just imposter syndrome. That I remember a point where I realized I initially said, like, ooh, I haven't experienced imposter syndrome for a while or for a while in a kind of go me way, and then realized, oh, I think that actually means that I'm not challenging myself enough. And so that what you just said made me think of that because it it feels like, you know, well, every year in your bass in your business is going to bring challenges. It's just that they're all different. If you don't think that this year was challenging in some way, did you try hard enough? Did you try to grow?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:46

Right. Yeah, maybe not. Maybe you didn't want to grow. Maybe you wanted a clean.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:53

Um, and so maybe it's, you know, doesn't have any challenges.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:57

Yeah, I don't know. It's all well-intended uh advice, I guess. So I know I feel like we've been trying to hang up for like an hour.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:05

Um there's so much to talk about though. I do I think I have a when's my next thing? Hold. I'm okay. Um thank you for doing this with me. I have been so excited to get to just connect with you ever since I saw the avocado toast thing, and you had some posts about like being unhinged and having a lot of energy.

unknown 1:22:31

Oh yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:34

I was like, I need to be uh my post's gonna be even more unhinged. Well, someone was copying my shit. So I actually I haven't told anybody, um, but some people were copying. There was a another somebody copying my my content, or at least felt so similar that I was like, didn't I?

SPEAKER_02 1:22:52

Not everyone can have my no one else has my personality. That can't be authentic.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:56

I was like, oh, I feel like I literally wrote this like two days ago, didn't I just write that? And like I'm like, uh it just felt very and it was happening a while for a while. Like it was like very like, I'd post something and then like a couple days later, it was mostly on the like tips, right? On like how to do business development. And so I thought I could either get like pissed, I could, I could get pissed, I was, I could send them a note, which I didn't feel like would really like end well or like do much because like it wasn't like verbatim, it was close enough, and they could have like then I'd have to like we'd get in this like tiffer. I just didn't think that was gonna end well. So basically what I decided to myself was that I to myself, I said self, um, was that my I was gonna make my content be more unhinged, and I would like laugh to myself every time I would post something ridiculous, and I'd be like, good luck copying that shit. Like that that shit's crazy. Like, good luck. And guess what? No one's copying me anymore, at least that I can tell. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:58

I think that's fantastic. I genuinely love I mean, I I haven't seen anything of yours that I actually believe is unhinged. I just see personality, yeah, and and I love it because I I don't do stiff, and I I'm just not interested in burning energy with not real people. Great. Yeah, and um one of the things I'm really excited about with developing the wellness esquire is just like bringing all of our kinds of people who share these kinds of values around well-being and authenticity and happiness and taking care of ourselves and each other, and just showing up as you all together, so that people can just find each other whether you're looking for in whatever way you're looking for community, whether it's just like, hey, I'd like to have some friends, sure, or you're looking for a job and you're wanting to find a firm that actually shares your values, or you're looking for, or someone's looking for you, but like we don't have a place where people can go and just be like, Well, this is these are my values as a lawyer or as a legal professional. Yeah, but I I need services, but I don't know how to find someone who I can actually relate to. And you know, how many people are out there who are like, Well, I know I need a marketing and biz dev person, but I don't like anyone out there, and they just don't know that you exist because you're kind of the unicorn. And but I I believe because of all of the conversations that I have with people in our space, people are looking for each other.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:49

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:50

There's more of us out there than anyone realizes because we just don't have a home.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:55

Yeah, I love it. I love I love that this that's the purpose and the intention, and that the more people that you talk to, the more you're like, oh, there's actually a lot of us. And it doesn't have to be so shitty. That was the main driver. That would be maybe that's what I need. That's what what I would say. I think for me, I kept being like, it didn't have to be that way, and it doesn't have to be that way. And that is really what keeps driving the conversation forward where I'm finding what I hope are good people, right? Um, everyone has a bad day, everyone has a bad season, um giving yourself grace for all of that, and on and doing on unlearning a lot of stuff. So I'm I'm glad there's spaces and that there's an appetite for it.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:37

Oh, there's an appetite, and I think you're finding that too, because that's the people who are becoming your clients.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:43

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:45

But another person's probably not gonna be your client, and that's okay. That's not who you want.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:49

No, I don't want them.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I saw someone, I saw I heard on a podcast, I'm now blanking on who this was, but they said something so brilliant about the way they kind of market their firm is both to attract the right people and repel the wrong people. And I I loved that because I think it's so easy to operate with a scarcity mindset of like, well no, I have to mold myself into whatever that kind of a client is gonna want. And such a fear around all this authenticity that we're talking about, because like, well, what if someone doesn't like me? And well, there are people that people are looking for you, but if you don't show up, people won't find you. And also, if you make it really clear who you are and what you're about, the wrong people won't want to work with you. And that's perfect. You don't want to work with me.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:45

No, I'm sure that's happened. Like, I'm sure there's people who come and see and they're like, no, cool. And I'm like, that's good, right? Like that's fine, that's fine for me.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:54

Great.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:58

Amazing. Thanks for listening. I hope you got a ton of value from this conversation, and that you will check out the links in the description to learn more about the guest and the wellness esquire. And I hope you take even just one minute to do something for yourself today. Maybe right now. Drink more water, say no, call a friend, do something that makes you happy, have a 30 second dance party, find something to make you laugh. Also, be sure to subscribe and send the podcast to a colleague. And if we're not yet connected on LinkedIn, please fix that. I'd love to know you. See ya next time.