The Wellness Esquire Podcast

How to Work Like You Vacation (and Why You Should) - with Gwen Griggs and Whitney Harper

• Ariella Cohen Coleman • Season 1 • Episode 23

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On this episode of The Wellness Esquire Podcast, Ariella Cohen Coleman chats with Gwen Griggs and Whitney Harper, founders of Advos Legal, for their second appearance on the pod!

They explore the wild idea of 'working the way you vacation' by ditching the legal industry's obsession with the misery competition and the billable hour. Gwen and Whitney share their journey of building a firm grounded in human-centric processes, learning from early practice 'disasters,' and why setting firm boundaries actually leads to more profitable business outcomes. They also cover the very important topic of what they wear “at the office” and how they handle OOO messages.


Guest Info

Gwen Griggs & Whitney Harper

Founders of Advos Legal

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Host Info: Ariella Cohen Coleman

The Wellness Esquire: Creating a bold new path where wellbeing, happiness, and authenticity drive performance and success https://thewellnessesquire.com

Ariella Law, PC provides strategic legal support - from formation, contracts, and compliance to fractional general counsel - through project-based services and monthly subscriptions for entrepreneurs, growing companies, and mission-driven organizations. https://ariellaw.com/

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SPEAKER_01

Welcome to the Wellness Asquire podcast. I'm Ariella, and I'm so excited to share that Gwen Griggs and Whitney Harper have returned for another conversation that I think you're gonna love. If you haven't yet listened to our first conversation, I recommend you do so. Gwen and Whitney are the founders of Advos Legal, a law a law firm built on a unique coin system model instead of the billable hour, and the creators of Advos Pro, a community and framework designed to help lawyers transition from the traditional billable hour and misery grind to a more sustainable, value-based practice where the humans come first. While our first conversation focused more on the business side of their work, today's conversation is more about how Gwen and Whitney actually live those values. We talk about all the important stuff, like the out-of-office message, vacations, statement earrings, and designing systems that protect their time, energy, and personal lives while also supporting their clients' needs. And we talk about the power of experimentation and why progress in law and wellness isn't about having perfect processes from day one. It's about the courage to fail forward and refine as you go. I'm so grateful to Gwen and Whitney for their transparency and for showing us what it looks like to build a practice that actually supports a life well lived and by the way, very happy lawyers, very happy teammates, and very happy clients. Thanks so much for listening and enjoy. So thanks for chatting with me. I had so much fun talking to both of you last time, and we had focused more on kind of how you got together and what you were building with your firm model and um a bit about AdVos Pro and the community. I want to get more into your personal stories, and we were just at the end starting to get into like wellness tips. And Gwen, you had pointed out that you'd seen me talk about some of my kind of optimization tactics and um processes, and I love talking about all that stuff. Um so I think we'll focus more on all of that today, and then of course, anything else that you both want to get into. I was thinking about though, when I'd emailed you over the weekend to you know just check in that this time still worked, Whitney, you had an away message up, maybe when you did too. And not surprisingly, it was Thanksgiving weekend. So you were noting, you know, you're on vacation and not available. And I just wondered like, how has putting an away message up changed for you in this environment where you're on your own and you have well-being in mind? Oh, Gwen, you are muted.

SPEAKER_00

I can't hear you.

SPEAKER_01

There we go.

SPEAKER_02

I was I was laughing because Whitney and I have a different philosophy on this, so you sure do. I allocate. Like fantastic.

SPEAKER_01

Let's get into it. Let's dig in.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so it's funny. I didn't realize that people didn't like put out of office messages on. So to me, it's funny that you would like, no, I'm not gonna do that. I don't want people to know I'm away. I'm like, I want them to know. Like, this is not me being non-responsive, this is me being on vacation.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_00

Um and and the people, so I we'll start here. I am a big believer that you need to take vacation. And I used to think you need to like go away with your people. And I don't know, that's always true, right? Whatever vacation is for you, but you need to take time away from the work. Like you've got to shake things up, you've got to give yourself a different headset, um, have generate experiences, like all the things, and life is meant to be lived, right? It's not just meant to be worked. And so um finding those ways, whether that means you know, you're working from a different location and and enjoying a different pace. Um, I think sometimes that's a great like vacation from the normal. Um, and sometimes it really is like I'm gonna put all the devices down and and be not in them for a while. Um big believer that we need to do that and that we need to do it in a way that's healthy both for the vacationer and for the people who have to keep the, you know, keep the things going while you're gone. Um, and we had a we had a sort of epic disaster of that in our early days that that really helped us to get clear on um how to prepare well for vacation, how to think about like just recognizing that that it's not just like I'm taking time off and I'm going and I'm and like, nope, we've got to you can't pretend that there isn't work that's gonna fall on other people, and you can't pretend that people are gonna need you in some way while you're gone, but how are you gonna deal with that in a way that isn't dumping on anyone and isn't leaving people feeling like they're not being cared for, right? And so I think you know, when you think about the out-of-office message, being really conscious about letting people know why you're away, right? Not just like, oh, I'm not responding to you, but like, hey, I'm away, I'm having vacation. And frankly, the clients we choose to serve are people who understand being human. Um, and generally speaking, everybody's got like the the outlier or the day where the generally very gracious client is not so gracious, um, or the per the person who believes that they are um more important than your mental health and well-being in family time. Um, but like I think those are generally outliers in in our client base. Um but yeah, it's it's like making sure that people know, and and they, you know, I think we part of it's how you interact with your clients, you sort of train them around what really is critical and has to happen right now, and what is just the thing you wanted to give me information about, know that I have, and we could talk about it later. Um, and then helping the the internal team um have a solid understanding of what's going on so that they don't feel like they're in a can't win position if something does have to be handled while you're gone and you're not able to do it. Um, I think all of those pieces are really important. And fun fact, um, if you're a Microsoft person, I don't know if this has always been the case. I it's I've only noticed it fairly recently over the last you know year or so. But um Microsoft actually lets you do an internal out-of-office message and an external out-of-office message. And so, like, I have really enjoyed in my internal message, um taking a chance to just say to the team, like, thank you. Really appreciate what you're doing to let me and my family go, in this case, you know, gallivant around the North Georgia Mountains, but whatever it is we're doing, um, you know, grateful for you. And I like, does that mean that that it makes it easier for them to do work if it has to spill over to them? I don't know, but I think it's a great opportunity just to say thanks, you know.

SPEAKER_02

It does give you like this great belly laugh in the moment. So like you're sending whatever thing you're sending, you're in the middle of work, and you get I get back a like, thank you, rock stars, you know, like really cheerful, positive message, and so it's a little bit of sunshine, right? And yeah, Vinny's also like an incredible writer, and so she like pulls together these words and these thought, these thoughtful messages, and so it's it's always a delight to get that.

SPEAKER_01

I think it's fantastic. I mean, to me, everything you just described, well, in a nutshell, it's giving other attorneys and members of your team permission to be human and to take a break. And I have to imagine, even for those who are taking on whatever needs to be, you know, addressed while you're taking vacation, being appreciated really matters. So if you were not acknowledging what they were doing, I'm sure you know it's a different attitude than okay, so I'm doing it this weekend so that someone will take care of me another time.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

That matters. All right. So Glenn, I sounds like you've got a different perspective.

SPEAKER_02

Well, I think I think an element of it is um very consistent with the way you think as well, which is it's all an evolution, it's all an experiment, and we're gonna experiment, and some are gonna work and some are not, and and it's it's gonna evolve. And when Whitney and I first partnered up, like I only had the experience of working with people who had the opposite, right? Of just like, when I'm gone, I'm gone. Like you guys figured out like the Whitney's comment about dumping, like that, yes, that's the way it works in big law firms or in in the corporations I was part of, right? Like the person left, and you're you're expected to be resourceful and figured out, and there's no transition in, transition out, there's no process around it. So Whitney, I think, is referring to one of our first Thanksgivings, and and I um and I was off and a client called, and Whitney had no background and no nothing to um like make this work really well.

SPEAKER_00

Like new context, right? Like, huh?

SPEAKER_02

You need what and the client didn't left. Now I will say the client is still like an amazing client of ours, left, you know, really one of our best clients, all these years later.

SPEAKER_00

Um, but it who I talk to just about every other week, and we were talking this week about that incident, actually, like having a good laugh about it.

SPEAKER_02

That 10 years ago. How far we've gone. Right? Literally 10 years ago. So when I got back, Whitney was like, okay, we're gonna create a process. And and here's the way this process is gonna work. Like, two months out, you're gonna well, first we're gonna tell everybody that you're you're gonna take time off. Then we're gonna have a meeting and go through all the work, and then two days before, because things change, like this very specific way, and then re-entry. What do we learn? What do we do better? Right, 10 years later, we we do it, we do it much better. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So I love so much of what you both just shared. And one of one of my favorite parts is that this was a it it what could have been with a client, still a client 10 years later, and you can laugh about it. And it's I think it's so useful to recognize that mistakes are how we end up growing. And you know, uh it can feel so dumb. I mean, I've been in this phase, I'm growing my firm, and part of what's slowed me down that I've recently started to move through is I was afraid of, well, oh god, I can't bring anybody on until I have all of the perfect processes for everything that might possibly come up.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

If someone else happened, exactly. And what I was thinking about with your story is, you know, when you came back and whitney, you were like, all right, this happened, don't want it to happen again, so we're gonna need a process. And it makes me think of when you're out in the world and you see these very strange signs and you realize, oh, that sign is there because someone did something odd. And that's why you have the sign. It didn't just like it's not like people sat there and just came up with every possible scenario, something could go sideways. It happened.

SPEAKER_02

So we developed I say that in a con in the contract world, right? Contract if you get someone's form contract, it's an archaeology gig. You're like, oh, there's a story. Nothing happened, age provision, right? So out of context. Like, tell me the story. Help, you know, let's let's think about what happened and is this the best way to solve it. But absolutely.

SPEAKER_01

Any other like learnings or tips that have come out of gearing up and preparing your team for you each or others to be on vacation? Because I I think this idea of going on vacation and taking time for yourself, you know, it's pretty easy. Well, I think for some for people who are, you know, geared up to be thinking like we are that, oh, we're humans and we should take a break. But then I think the next step is, okay, but how? How can I actually do that? So what does that look like for you now that you've been practicing and improving your systems over the last 10 years or so?

SPEAKER_00

So, Gwen, you have to take this one first because you've had some really good practice lately.

SPEAKER_02

I was gonna say, so just comparison, right? I tried to take a day off in in Thanksgiving time 10 years ago, and it it didn't go very well. And it has taken 10 years, but the end of September, early October, I took two weeks off completely, went to France. I've never taken two weeks off. Right, there was no need for me to log into my computer at all. Every now and then I would like peek, but I took the app off my phone so that I wouldn't be tempted to check my outlook while I was traveling. And and we set up systems. I put to some degree because we have these repeat clients, I was just making sure for about six months before I left. Right. Understand two weeks, two solid two weeks. I'm off. And we had a deal that was really trying to close before I left. It didn't close, but everyone on the deal team knew Quen is gone and you're not getting anything from me for two solid weeks. So you'll close at the end, and it closed at the end of October, not just because of my role, but it's just the way you know they try to close August, September, right? End up in October. Um, we also have a someone, a paralegal on our team who had access to my email box. And so that was my solve. It's it's funny, like the the the seeds that get planted in your brain. I had this, I have I subscribed to a whole bunch of things. They end up getting filtered, so I don't have to read them, but I had this weird, like, I don't want the junk emailers to know I'm out of the office. Like I I I don't know. I don't know why that sticks with me, but it it sticks with me. But we have a paralegal who went in the box box, made sure that so I I had more confidence that not just did people know I wasn't there, but there was a human who was making sure that things were getting taken care of and bubbling up to Whitney if um and and I left on a Wednesday, and one of our clients received an LOI to sell their company on Thursday. So Whitney got to negotiate that from start to finish.

SPEAKER_00

Which is actually work I love, and it's a client I love, and like that was great.

SPEAKER_02

Um I've been screwing for six months. That's the day that you know one of our largest clients gets an LOI.

SPEAKER_00

So what I can tell you is that Gwen was really truly fully off because as we get this LOI done, and it's you know one of her favorite clients too, and I'm like, there are several things going on, and I, you know, we've been partnered for 10 years now. Like I know this human, and I know like if she doesn't know the end of the story, like her brain's gonna keep spinning about it. So I don't want her like spinning things, like trying not to look at the emails and you know, and worrying and whatever. So I like send her this, you know, book of a text of like, okay, here's where we are with that deal, and here's this thing, this other thing is done, and this other thing is done. And you know, I've got it, just wanted you to know so that you can go, like, do your thing. I get crickets back, right? Absolute crickets. And I'm like, okay, well, either she's having the time of her life, or like we're breaking up. I don't know. She never doesn't respond to me, right?

SPEAKER_01

I'm guessing it was the former you were having the time of your life, and I've been a lot of rose.

SPEAKER_02

Six hours later, right? It was Saturday afternoon and 67 degrees, and I discovered um rose. And so we I was I was having a very lovely time, and yes, did not as you should.

SPEAKER_01

As you should. So, okay, you took two whole weeks off, and you were just a person. What did that do for you as just yourself, and then for your practice when you came back?

SPEAKER_02

For me, I would say so. We went to the south of France, right? And and as we walked around and we didn't over-schedule, which has also been my habit. Like, I I vacation the way I work, right? Which is every single minute is scheduled, and I'm gonna make sure I get the most out of today. And this way, it's very stressful because you had to like do it right.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_02

And this time I was like, I'm not going to do that. I'm gonna, we're gonna plant ourselves in this city and we're gonna walk around and have espresso and then stop and have lunch and be completely unscheduled. And I the our experience of the culture there is that's how everyone lives. They live, and I that was my message to my children. I was like, they they have this human pace that we don't that I haven't experienced because I've had this experience of like we've got to pack everything in and use every minute. And um so absolutely bring that back, brought that back of like I'm not starting my day. And it it's imperfect, but I bought an espresso machine this weekend.

SPEAKER_03

Yay!

SPEAKER_02

And like the act, the ritual of making an espresso instead of sticking the curriculum, right? Like the ritual of walking and just enjoying and making more fresh foods, fresher foods, right? And resting or walking in the afternoon, and then just have like literally every week, every day. Uh, one of my favorite books is Winning the Week, which is um, every week looking back, what worked, what didn't work, what do I want to make sure I'm gonna have happen this next week? And what what can I say no to? Right? I I know things were going to come in, so I I have to look at that calendar and say, what am I gonna say due to? How am I gonna say no more often? So that the rest and the and the space and the roominess to be creative and to solve problems is there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Absolutely. Gwen, I think it's so interesting. Like you said, you used to vacation the way you worked, and now you've had this like shift to starting to work more the way you vacationed, like more of the life that you've experienced on that vacation, which I think is so healthy.

SPEAKER_02

Yes. Yeah, and I would say like work the way we are actually as humans designed to work. Yeah. And I think about even the hourly billing model, right? Like even the I'm I I it it's a habit that's so in me, it's hard to completely break. And so I'll look at something and I'll think, okay, 15 minutes. I've got 15 minutes, I can do something in 15 minutes. Right. And and sometimes I do, but but pausing enough to say, oh, or maybe I just breathe and see some fresh air for 15 minutes and then show up in a different way instead of I I I I like eight eight to ten hours a day, and you're tracking every minute of it, like that's not human. That's not how humans work.

SPEAKER_00

So it's also not humane.

SPEAKER_02

Agreed. How should humans work? I think they have to listen really well to what to their energy. It sounds a little woo, but right, like, do I have the energy?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

That's not woo at all. And if we think that's woo, that's a whole other thing that we've got to work on as a culture and as an industry. Yes. Yes. As I've started to pay more attention to the value of my energy and pay less attention to time, everything has started to shift for me.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Massive difference.

SPEAKER_02

Yes. And when do I have energy and what lights me up and what doesn't light me up? And and just literally listening to your body of like, I don't want to do this thing. Well, that's a that's a sign, right? That we should listen to, not just power through.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, so we shouldn't just power through everything. That's a habit we need to break, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. What about that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Okay, so you've, I think both of you have talked about this misery competition that um the industry trained. Yeah. So talk about that and your personal experiences with the misery competition and recognizing that, like, eh, maybe it's not a great approach.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, well, I mean, I yeah. I think it's really interesting. I noticed it even um In our partnership, right, as we talk to each other about our days, like we, you know, everybody's gonna have their moment where they go down kind of a downward spiral, right? And I think we've gotten much more comfortable, and it has taken time, right? Even even for people who value wellness and wholeness and vacation time and time with family and exercise and all those things. I would say in our first in the first half of us as Advost Legal, like we valued those things and we still had these well-worn talk tracks, right? Those um kind of the heuristics, right? The the thing that you just keep going back to that is the way we talk about it, where it was like, well, no, I mean, yes, I've had a lovely day, but I can't let you know that. I need to, I need to find the things to tell you how hard I'm working. And it was this like, I need to convey the misery so that you believe I'm pulling my weight, or that I'm like I'm giving it my all or whatever. Um, and it's it takes real time and also um peer modeling, you know, seeing other people break that cycle and not apologize for it, right? That that shift, um, I I don't think you can make that shift really well on your own um as easily as you can, anyway, with other people in in your culture who you've chosen to surround yourself with, even if you're a solo practitioner. I think having other people who you connect with um who think differently about it and who are willing to like say it. When Gwen and I talk, we have a couple of times a week that we have set aside just to connect. And so, you know, around four o'clock on Mondays and Wednesdays, we're connecting. And some days it's like, this is hard. I'm having a hard day. Um, but we're also talking about like the lovely parts of our day and the human parts of our day, and the like supporting each other and saying, I I want you to have the time you need, and I want you to have um the support you need and whatever, and and really sitting in that together. I think I think that's super important. And then, you know, it comes out in your conversations with other lawyers from other firms or other professionals and other places, and I think it attracts the right kind of clients too, the clients who want you to be healthy and who understand that they're gonna get better value and and a richer relationship when they value you as a human and you know, vice versa.

SPEAKER_02

So I was thinking about in our in our CEO circles, right? Our our four long firm owners, right? The all everyone in that group is a is a solo, is a solo or small firm owner.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And and we built, we've been doing about a year and a half now, and we built like people know they'll start to say something and they'll say, I know what you're gonna say, right? Because they know that we know it can be different, right? And but it's hard for them to make that shift until they until they're reminded again, and then they think about it for themselves and they realize I'm taking on this client that actually isn't a great fit. That's that's what you're gonna say. You're gonna say that the reason I'm having this problem is because I I said yes to this client, I shouldn't have said yes to. And you it's the repetition of that that helps that helps us learn, right?

SPEAKER_01

How did the two of you start identifying, you know, what your values and priorities were for yourselves and for the firm, and how to start adjusting the way you were even communicating with each other when you, you know, you went into this, and you're like, okay, on the surface, we know that you know, well, well-being and wholeness and you know, our humanity is important, and yet we've got all these years behind us of not really behaving that way. And so we still have these habits and inclinations toward not the way we want to be, but it's still the way we are, and we've got so much fear around you know, someone thinking that you know you're not working your ass off, or all of that. So, what helped you make those adjustments?

SPEAKER_02

I'll start um and I'll say that I spent about two and a half years before I before we launched the firm at a workplace wellness company. I think I may have mentioned that in our last call. And so for me, I had a long history of being a very young lawyer, learning a certain way, being surrounded by people who behave the same way. And then I had this moment of seeing someone build a really successful company grounded in the in the idea that that isn't how we behave. And I watched the impact of that on the humans, yes, people never left, right? If you got a job there, you were you were going to stay because you hadn't experienced a culture anywhere else. Um, but then also the I mean the profit side of that, right? If if people come and they want to stay and they don't want to leave, and you're not always hiring and you don't have the churn, and your clients love you, right? Like it it makes more profit. Like that, you know, if so just like holistically every perspective, that's just a good business decision. But it is it it breaks the um the idea that you must work hard to run a good business. And so yes, I knew it at some level, and I even knew it uh you know experientially at some level, and still in practice, it's easy to get sucked back in in a circle of other humans who who have this belief that it's working hard, it's working all the time, it's fast turnarounds, even when they're they're not. And I'll also add having Whitney as a partner, right? Because Whitney, like she's just like, yeah, that's not that important. It's not going to come in in front of the thing that is important to me and my family. And so what watching her stand in that and the clients still love her, they don't run away, right? Like when you see that, you're like, oh, actually, all those times that I thought if I did that, we would we wouldn't be successful, like I've I was just wrong.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, well, it's fear, right? I think there's there's that fear, Ariela, you hit it on the nose earlier. Like there is a fear-based reaction that until you have, until you sort of your nervous system has reason to believe that the fear is unfounded, it's really hard to convince yourself otherwise. So I think that um it's in it's worth recognizing and calling it out for what it is. Because I think we as lawyers don't admit to fear very easily. Right? That it's that's weakness, that's yeah, and so we we instead convince ourselves that it is being driven or it is being a high performer. Yeah, we're good enough. Yeah, we can give all sorts of really nice names to that that inclination. Um, but really it's just like you trying to grind yourself into the ground and and not, you know, I think sort of your your number one job, put on your own oxygen mask first, right? Like you've got to take care of yourself, or you're not any good to anybody else. And I think we as lawyers, we as women in particular, are not great at that.

SPEAKER_01

Well, it's you know, one thing to say, put your oxygen on mask on first. How do you start doing that when that's not your default? Did you have specific experiences that kind of knocked some, you know, something over your head that just made you go, oh man, I really gotta change how I'm operating? How how did you start to shift?

SPEAKER_00

You know, one of the things I was thinking about earlier is um as the owners of the firm, I remember earlier on in our history, um Gwen making a comment sort of observationally. Like we are we were very committed to making sure our team was whole and happy and healthy. And that meant, you know, the team's going on vacation, we're gonna step in and make sure everything is buttoned up and handled, and that nobody will bother them, and we're, you know, babying them about taking their vacation. And then when it was time for us to vacation, like it was a big heavy lift. And I know I think Gwen probably felt it more than me that it was like it was more work to go on vacation than it was worth. And so that like I I recall sort of viscerally hearing that and going, oh, this is a problem. Like this, this is not, you know, the idea of owning your firm is not so that you make everything in your own life harder. Um, and that seems to be kind of the default setting for a lot of us. And so I think sometimes there's you know, you learn more from the the body feeling of doing it the way you don't want um than you do from anything else, right? You read all the books you want, you can hear other people's stories, but that that full body reaction to this isn't, you know, that's not what I want, is is pretty important to listen to.

SPEAKER_02

And I do think there's some books that have that for me at least really were impactful. Like I did have some some health issues in the early 2000s that made me question um just the advice I was getting from doctors about what how you treat certain things. And I was like, actually, I'm going through this really, really stressful time, and no one is asking me how stressed I am. But my my like the voice inside my head said, I think when I get through this, like this symptom is is going to resolve it. You don't have to take my gallbladder. I think, I think that's I think we're gonna be okay. And so, but resisting the advice we were getting uh uh from a doctor that was that was tough to do, but listening to your own, you know, to Wade's point, what I was really doing was listening to me and knowing what was happening in my life. It also then makes you seek out the books that are going to answer those questions. And for me, the book that came into my life is um Tony Schwartz wrote a book called The Way Where Working Isn't Working. And he pulled all this science and studies and math, and again, profit, right? Because I'm like, I'm not about running, you know, a business that barely pays its bills, right? That's not that's not the point. That's not healthy either. Um and in his book, he and this was 2008, right? This was a very long time ago. Now we we talk about it like everybody knows it. It's not it's not novel at all, but it was very novel as I was in a corporate job reading this book that said, lack of sleep will kill you, right? And and if we actually create some healthy boundaries, Whitney's point earlier of if we have off time, then our on time is more creative and productive and problem solving and actually can be more profitable. And they had this study of Sony that had two divisions, one that said, you're gonna reply to all the emails whenever you're gonna reply, and one that said, we're gonna stop at six o'clock on Friday and you're not going to read your email until Monday. And of course, the punchline was the one that had boundaries was more profitable. And so then when you start seeing seeing examples of like, it's not it's not just pie in the sky and Pollyanna, and wouldn't that be nice? It's companies have adopted this and they've proven different results. The the funny thing though is if you're selling hours, I that doesn't work because you still need to have the as many hours as you possibly can. So that's part of the reason we don't sell hours, right? But that was that was one of the books that really had an impact.

SPEAKER_01

I am looking forward to reading that. I I really appreciate that you brought up the health challenges piece of this. It reminded me of when I was I have a very complex health history. I was born with some challenging stuff, and things got much more complicated as life went on. I'm pretty sure everyone in my law school knew that I was, you know, had had a really complex health situation. And I remember somebody asking me as a one L, how does stress impact your health? And I said, Oh, it doesn't. Thank you. Exactly. But at the time when I said that, I wasn't that's what I thought. I had I think two primary thoughts around it. One was, you know, I I had grown up with these health challenges that had been really hard to get answers about. And so I was so afraid of anyone thinking um, you know, that my health problems weren't real. And so I didn't want anyone to think, oh, it you're just, you know, it's just a mental health thing, you're actually fine, you're just making this stuff up, which is not the case. Um, and so I was afraid of having anything like stress tied to, you know, the reason that I was having all these crazy organ problems and um chronic pain and crazy stuff. Um and I genuinely had no idea that stress could impact stress. I health. I'd never not had health challenges, probably also never not been stressed. So I didn't know how they went together. I was so afraid of anyone having any opportunity to question also if I could operate as a lawyer. So all of these things combined, the answer simply had to be no. Yeah, there was no alternative. And when I started to discover many years later, huh, I think I think there might be some truth to there being actually like science about stress impacting your health. No, right. Like it it actually took me a lot to accept that because I had all these two sort of challenges in my head that you know I was really unwilling to acknowledge that and recognizing the connection was hard and critical. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And my like our profession um kind of suffers from this single-mindedness about how we have to work. Right. I think there are there are so many people out there who are entrepreneurial or who are in different businesses, who have seen different business setups, if you will, right? Like different structures, different norms, um, just different ways of thinking about what results you want. Let's just start here. Even thinking about what is the result you want. Like what results do you want from your life's work? And I don't just mean the dollars, although I do mean the dollars, but also like how do you want to feel? And what kind of what do you want the days and the hours to look like? And all of those things. And like, I don't think our profession ever, I don't think it ever occurred to most of us that we get to like think about those things and make decisions about them and ask questions about them. And so, you know, Ariel, you're sitting there and somebody says, like, how does stress affect you? And you're like, it can't, because there's only one way to do this job, and it is like all out and all the hours of all the days, and like if I have anything left, I've done it wrong. Yeah, and what is that?

SPEAKER_02

I and I find some irony in this too. So I'm early 30s, two young children. That's when I'm having some of these health issues, and also going through like the most stressful little six months of my professional career. When I was 40 for my 40th birthday, I went to Miraval and did this equine experience where you approach a horse, and I my husband has been around horses, so I watched him do it, then I I to clean its hoof, and and I did it because I watched him do it with great confidence, and I walked up and did it with great confidence, and then I looked around and realized that no one else had that level of confidence, and the horse wasn't picking its foot up, and it was such an aha moment or hoof up that if a horse can feel my energy and my confidence, like how many humans have felt the like I had this moment where I was like, the stress is affecting me, but I'm able to like manage it all and it doesn't actually ripple and affect anybody else. And then you have this moment and you're like, oh, hold on. If I'm not managing this stress, everyone else in the room knows it, right? In some form or fashion, is experiencing it in some form or fashion. Is that who I really want to be? Is that the relationship I want to be? Um so it's you you almost have to have the experience to prove to yourself and your body that like, yes, we are emotional creatures and people can feel that energy and that emotion. So to Whitney's point of put your oxygen mask on, right? Our responsibility is to show up as best as we can and also human and know that we are not always at our best, like and forgive ourselves for that too, you know.

SPEAKER_01

What is what does that look like for both of you? That you know, when you're showing up as just yourselves and you're not trying to pretend that you really are always at the top of the game, your game, because we we try. And I, you know, I talk about having all these tools that help me optimize my performance no matter what, but that doesn't mean I'm actually always at my best. It means that on a day where I've got all these factors that are, you know, impacting me and I I don't feel amazing, that I'm able to operate better than I otherwise would.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Our COO, Sarah, yeah, Sarah, our COO has this tremendous one-liner that she'll whip out for you whenever you're kind of in that space of like, I just don't have much in the tank right now. You know, like I've whether it's I'm low on energy or I'm just not like thinking crisply right now, or whatever it is, right? She will say, if you have 20% and you gave it, you gave it 100%, babe. And I love that. Even if you have 20%, you give it 15%, right? But like recognizing that we're it's not fair to ask ourselves to be at the top of our game every day. It's just not fair. It's not real.

SPEAKER_02

It's also just not true, right? Like that's that to me, that's back to the fallacy of we're gonna crank out, you know, 50 hours a week that we're gonna document. Like those hours are not the same. And it's it is not a true statement to say that they are, because we're humans that power up and power down and have human experiences and loss and grief and struggle and all of those things that that because we're human, we feel and they're gonna impact us. Didn't sleep well for a hundred million different reasons, right? That's gonna impact how we're how we're doing. But I think the other thing is is committing to habits, right? And honoring those habits and understanding, like I've gotten to a place now where I know I use a tonal machine, and I know that if I don't work out, like where I'm pushing my muscles to the limit a couple times a week, like I'm gonna start getting kind of irritable, right? Like if if I don't get outside and move my body, I'm I'm not going to, you know, have energy, which is you know, there's it takes a it takes breaking the idea that I have to spend every minute working to say I'm gonna invest this time. But then when you see the results and you realize, oh, I actually can bring different energy because I did that. I love that. What is a tonal machine? Oh, it's um it's basically like on it's on the wall, has these pulleys, and it's it's a strength training. But for me who loves who loves data, it gives me a strength score, right? And it tells me whether I'm getting better or not. And and it remembers all of the things that I'm I can't possibly like, you know, 31 pounds and each lever. I'm like, I can't remember what the setting should be. Please remember that for me. So yes, I'm in love with it. But also then it's teaching me, like we're gonna travel, and I'm like, okay, so now I I can make a simple routine and I know what my I know what where I should be, right? Because I've now got more reps and more experience on it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Arielle, I want to know some of your like this, you have like committed to the wellness part. So I I want to pick your brain on what your thing is.

SPEAKER_01

So my this part of my story in a nutshell, well, I guess there's kind of two pieces, at least. I'll focus on two. One is I got a concussion, my sixth concussion, um, in I think it was 2018. Yeah, I don't recommend it. Um and what are you doing?

SPEAKER_00

Are you a boxer by hobby? Like what are we doing here, friend?

SPEAKER_01

So this gets to the complex health complex health history. I was there's I'm gonna try to simplify this. I was born with a connective tissue disorder called Eller Sanlo syndrome, and some of what that comes with is um hold on, we have a knocking at the door.

SPEAKER_02

So we have an edit button, you told me so.

SPEAKER_01

I do have an edit button. My husband's gonna deal with it. So I was born with this connective tissue disorder, and it um if you think about how important it is for a building to be constructed well, same thing goes for a for a person. So mine, my body was not constructed really optimally. So my connective tissue, which is supposed to be like tight lattice, like this, mine was clumsier, kind of like this. So that can lead to quite a few things, including it being really easy to get injured and um your nervous system having trouble kind of um sending and understanding signals, and just things don't operate ideally. Um and your connective tissue holds together your organs. So if the thing that's holding everything in you together is kind of floppy, you can imagine the cascading effect. So that can lead to, I think I mentioned chronic pain and also a poor proprioception, which is your body's awareness, your awareness of where you are in space. When you don't know where you are in space, a lot can go poorly, which can include, you know, bumping into things and seeming like the clumsiest person on the world and having all sorts of bizarre injuries and um, you know, you name it, kind of issues going on with your organ systems. And it this this connective tissue disorder, Ellis Danlow syndrome, um, often also has all these different comorbidities with different body systems with all sorts of challenges. So that along with related vision issues in a nutshell led to uh a bunch of head injuries. This one was I hit my I was putting stuff away in a kitchen uh cabinet, getting ready for friends to come over for a board game night, and I just hit my head on the counter as I was getting up. My husband heard a scream, he came in. Anyways, um I refused to believe that it was a concussion. I should have known I'd done this plenty of times, but I was early on in my career and felt like, ooh, I haven't succeeded yet, and I'm not exactly where I want to be, and I can't, I've already had been explicitly and implicitly guided to never tell anyone about my health. So I did not feel like I could just go and say, you know, I have a concussion. I couldn't even, I didn't even want to admit it to myself. Um, so I tried after about a day and a half, I did acknowledge it was a concussion, but I then tried to work through it for about a month. That was a bad idea. I made it worse. Um, it and it I just couldn't do it. And it was the first thing I'd been unable to push through in my life. So that was an identity crisis of who am I if I can't push through everything. Um and that was forced to really take time off. And part of my kind of recovery process included working with a neurologist who integrated into his protocols well-being-oriented practices like meditation and mindfulness and things like that. And I was at the time like, okay, I will try anything, I have to get back to life, and I'm bored out of my freaking mind just lying here unable to do anything, and I was a mess. Um, and then I started to discover that oh, I'm I'm actually improving. And huh, it seems like when I take better care of myself from a well-being perspective, not a like try to fix my health problems perspective, um, I'm also more productive. That's weird. And so that's kind of that's really where the orientation around well-being stemmed from. It it felt very forced initially, and then I discovered, huh, when I when I actually like care for myself as a person, things seem to get better. Weird. Um and then the more kind of um tool-oriented, uh, I mean, I'd been trying to you know develop tools for my whole life because I was born into a complex um body, but what's now become uh really foundational to the way I operate um is I about three years ago, I started working with a neuroperformance trainer, which is a type of training that no one's ever heard of. And um I had been, again, really sick and was looking for what's something I haven't tried before. And I found my way to this incredible guy named Steve Madama, and um he does what I consider to be science-based magic, and it's essentially athletic training of the nervous system. And the best way I've come to describe it sort of in more detail is it's like if you were to combine every form of physical therapy, occupational therapy, vision therapy, vestibular training, which is your balance system, um, personal training, just training of every system in your body, head to toe, inside out, that's what this is. And I started it to get out of a really, really horrendous flair. And it's not only the thing that helped me feel healthy for the first time, but it's also now what allows me to be so wildly productive that I mean, I get questions from people all the time of how do you do everything you do? You've got multiple businesses and you've got you're starting this new thing, and it's like how is it possible? Some of it's how I'm built. I'm just I'm very driven and I'm naturally a very organized person, um, and I really like efficiency and systems. Um, but the other part of it is processes and systems and strategies and a toolbox. And so I've got all of these tools that are very nervous system oriented that help me to show up as well as I possibly can under any circumstance. And again, I started this kind of training program to help me get out of a really bad flair, and it did that and made me healthier than ever. But it's also now filled with the tools that I can use for um a day, frankly, even like today, where I was wiped. I've just learned to surf over the weekend and I've got a lot going on, and um got some difficult personal news this morning. Somebody passed away, and so it's been actually a difficult day. But I've got these tools that just like I've got my resistance bands right here, I've got something, uh, another strap around my feet because I benefit a lot from doing isometrics. Um so it's it's there's a lot of um, you know, most of us, and I used to be in this bucket, don't really have the awareness of the role of our nervous system. And our nervous system basically directs everything about the way we show up in a day, whether you're talking about your physical health, your emotional health, your mental health, um, you know, we're talking about stress, anxiety, depression, uh, you know, just how well you're performing in whatever aspect of your life you're trying to perform in. And um, you know, I started it to not be in pain and have my organ systems work properly, and it worked for that. And now it's okay, well, how can I be sharper? How can I be clearer? How can I work faster and more efficiently? How can I move out of anxiety? How can I avoid anxiety? Just, you know, when something happens, what do I, what can I kind of really quite quickly and simply move through it instead of just being like, oh, well, that sucks, nothing I can do about that. That's not a mentality that I align with. And so this just gives me all these things of, you know, okay, so what one of my go-tos is I do all these hand exercises. And if you with the hand exercises and all sorts of other things, if you ever see me walking around the world, I look weird. Because I'm doing stuff, I'm doing like vestibular drills and I'm like moving my body in all these different ways. Um, and some of that is very specific to the challenges that I experience because of this the the health, my health background. But but all of it's also stuff that anyone can do. And um, you know, we regardless of your personal circumstances, we all have a nervous system. No one's nervous system is operating perfectly. We've all got room for improvement, and um, and I think it's just the coolest thing ever for you to be able to say, well, okay, so your hands have a tremendous impact on sort of the way your brain is able to um operate, is maybe this this just a simple way to put it, but there's uh I can send you information about it. I was gonna say, is there like a community links to the beginner? Hi there, there's this is actually another business that I'm developing because I get so much so many questions about this, and I love talking about it because no one knows about it. No one knows about it, right? And no one wants to feel like crap. But most people don't know that they don't have to feel the way they do. Um, so I I don't find I'm amazing at explaining this, but the hand thing is um there's this concept of a homunculus, which is there's a kind of um futuristic caricature or caricature-looking weird creature um that has very oddly proportioned body parts. And they're oddly proportioned in such a way that kind of demonstrates how much of your sort of brain capacity is being directed to those parts of your bodies. So your hands and your tongue take up a lot of that brain power, and so when you can get your hands and your tongue working better, it frees up a lot of space for your brain to do other things, but it so it doesn't have to work as hard. Um, so I interested. I have uh homework tonight. Like I Googling and researching. You know, with my with my hands. My trainer, I mean, he's got you know, his he works with everyone from professional athletes to Parkinson's patients, and he'll have them if it's the right thing for them, because everyone's different, you know, running and doing their their training, their their marathons or whatever with hand figure eights or you know, whatever it is. And so these are some of the things that I'll do sometimes in a meeting or in a podcast under the camera, or to prep myself, or to help me wake up. I mean, I'll this is it's now part of this is the way I work out, but it's also just part of my lifestyle. So as soon as I get up, I start doing things. I mean, I like by the time I'm brushing my teeth, I've started. And it helps me function. Um, and not just like, I mean, it helps me function, you know, baseline if I'm having a really, really rough day. And then it just gets me, you know, to like reach for the stars levels on more days than would probably be realistic for most, because I've just got these tools. Um, and you know, one of the things that I've found most beneficial from working with my trainer is learning about how important rest is. And this actually, I mean, this comes up so often with him, and it just came up. We work virtually, we came up yesterday. I'm doing this thing with him called blood flow restrictive training, uh restriction training. And you put these, actually have them next to me, you put these straps um either around your legs or your arms. You should do this with a trainer. Um, and it restricts blood flow, and it it's a it's really hard, it's really cool, it's really interesting. Um, and a big part of why he's doing it with me, most people do it for strength training, and we're doing that too. But it for me in particular, it's helping me with interoception. So, my natural, because of some of the stuff I was born with, my natural awareness of what what I'm feeling and what's going on inside of me, is it it's very hard for me to understand. So, having training protocols that actually help me understand proprioception, so like this is where my elbow is, and it's connected to the arm, and that's where a wrist is, and that's how it's supposed to move. And then interoception of like, there's a feeling inside, and this is what it is, and this is so um, so, anyways, with this training, there's this there's a protocol with it. So, you're you're putting these straps on, there's a process for making sure that you have the right level of resistance, too much is unsafe, doing it right is safe. Um, and it's you're doing third uh reps of 13, 15, 15, 15 with intentional rest in between. And I tend to not be the most patient person. And so he will say, stop. You haven't done your your full rest period in between these reps. You have to, or these the set, the rest is really important. And that's been a big part of me learning for the rest of life how important it is. Um one of the other big things I've learned from him is how important it is to make mistakes as part of the learning process, because our um uh uh neuroplasticity actually happens from making mistakes. If we're we so like understanding the right level of challenge is actually key to learning. So if we're never, if we're never making mistakes, we're really not learning that much or at all. And if we're making too many mistakes, we're actually just overwhelming our systems. So understanding the value of mistakes in the learning and growth process is huge. And my comfort with that really came from this kind of training. That is fascinating. Really? Isn't that so cool? Yeah, I I just um my husband actually this weekend started building for me what will eventually be this platform where I share videos and more instructions around the training that I do. Because I for years kind of um sort of casually shared videos on social media, and I will get messages from people from all around the world of like, I mean, one of the two of my favorites um messages are a mom um in from in Finland sent me a message and said, you know, her her husband had started rejoining their family activities because the tongue exercises that I had shared had helped his pain go down so much. And there was I know. And there was a nine-year-old who found me through her mom on TikTok. Um and and they sent me this like really just such a sweet message. And I was like, Does she want to, does she want to FaceTime? And so I, you know, made friends with this little nine-year-old. Um, and my video, one of them in particular was of me, well, I I I would share these training videos not of just me learning, sh not just of me showing, hey, this is how you do it, but also this is the process of me going from I don't know what's going on here to understanding how to do it. And for someone in a body like mine, our our the our natural sense of the world is can be different. And so one of the videos that I have is my trainer is teaching me knee mobility circles or knee mobility uh mobility drills. And one of his uh I think favorite ways to train me is to just show me what he wants me to do and then just uh wait and see what happens because that then helps him understand what we're gonna have to do. Right, exactly. And so he showed me what the movement was, and I did something very different and very strange that involved far more than just the knees. It was a whole hip thing and it was wrong. And his response was something like, whoa boy, we got a lot of work to do. And by the end of the video and our our training session, like I understood what the movement was supposed to be. Um, but anyways, I'd shared this in other videos, and so this nine-year-old saw someone who'd made it, you know, like lawyer, living a life, married, you know, very happy. And also, like, this is, you know, so I've and it was an I was an example of someone who'd gone from, you know, really tremendous pain to feeling good in my body, still figuring it out. But it showed her that the body she was born in was like it didn't have to just be like, you know, a disaster. Um and it started to give her strength of like, oh, okay, I can get strong, and this doesn't have to be the end of the world, and okay, I can I can learn to navigate this. Um, so anyways, so we're I'm getting more structure around how to share the videos because like everyone wants to know how to show in context.

SPEAKER_02

Well, and I I think you have like a specific right like medical um experiences that said my body's different. But I I actually the corollary that is coming into my mind is as lawyers, the people who pick who choose lawyering as their profession, they probably believed I'm super logical, right? I am really logical. I can my my logic and my ability to to like problem solve is so great, like I don't have to pay attention to all these emotions, right? And so I think there's a couple, there's a there's a competitiveness, there's a logic behavior, there's a drive, like you know, and there's a almost a natural disconnection with like the physicality and the emotion of being a human.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Like if you just think of a subset of humans, right, that said, I want to be a lawyer, right? They're like, I'm gonna take on other people's emotions because I'm so logical, right? I can do that, right?

SPEAKER_00

And which is, by the way, highly illogical to say, but there we are.

SPEAKER_02

Their self-concept is that I'm so logical, I can take on everybody's else else's emotions. And so I think you have like the actual medical, but you also chose a profession, right? Where you have a lot of different people that you come into contact that have had some similar experiences of, right? And I mean, again, back to the hours, right? I believe I can be I can operate just like a machine, and for 60 hours a week, I can deliver the exact same thing because I'm that good, right? And and not not listening to the humanity of it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Well, and I thought so. Interesting parallels, as you were talking, you know, we talked in the beginning about sort of how we learned from the mistakes we made, and the body feeling of the mistakes was the thing that like helped us to understand what wasn't supporting our overall humanity and wellness in our firm. And I think, you know, same thing that you're saying about the ability to learn muscle movements and physical things by making the mistake and not over-mistaking, right? Like not overwhelming yourself with this isn't working. And I think like that it that's such an important balance and uh something to be valued that that we as lawyers do not uh inherently value, right? Making mistakes but also taking the time to have the conversation about what that mistake means, how do we not repeat it the same way next time is also not something that uh the profession you know inherently does, and is super important because I think if you you know you make the mistake, you keep making the mistake, you start to believe that the mistake is the only possible outcome. And that doesn't have to be true. And then the other thing he said. That I I love the parallel of to the kind of business principles piece. I think this is just true all over the place. Is that there are a lot of things in our lives that I talk about it in terms of taking up your RAM. Like they're they're occupying so much of your brain's processing power because they're just there. And it doesn't have to be that way. You actually can build exercises for yourself or routines. Or I think about in terms of our business, where we've built systems or checklists or automations so that I don't have to remember all the steps. I can have a place to go back and I can confidently know that I can stop trying to remember all the steps because I have a place. Or even just having like the single source of truth, the one place where all of your to-do list lives, and knowing that you can put things there so you don't have to keep trying to keep them on the mental to-do list and can free up your brain to be creative, to get rest, to be sharper, to do the stuff that's really higher level. I think I loved hearing that from your the perspective of your medical challenges and journey and the parallel to the fact that it's it's just it's actually just true in life.

SPEAKER_01

A thousand percent true. And it, you know, one of the things that's been most fascinating for me is when I started posting on LinkedIn, it was sometime during the pandemic, and I was posting about being an attorney with this complex and quote unquote rare disease story. And I felt really nervous to do it because I'd been guided to, you know, never tell anybody your story ever. And I was immediately flooded. And I when I did it, I did it because I just felt like I wasn't showing up as myself. And it's not like I was at the time looking to just walk into meeting rooms and say, hey, let's talk about me before we get into the purpose of the meeting. But I I was pretty, you know, I wasn't showing up as myself. And and I had I had felt that, man, it would have been really valuable for me to have someone I could have looked to to see, okay, like I know that I can do whatever I set my mind to, but like, has anyone done this before? Because it kind of seems like no one has, and I'd like some guidance, just or just like some support. And I fortunately my twin sister has similar health stuff, and she was in med school when I was in law school. Oh my gosh, so that's how you but I I I just thought, well, maybe there's one other person out there who would benefit from knowing that there's also me. And so that's why I posted. And as soon as I did, I was immediately flooded with so many stories. And I discovered, believe it or not, I am not the only lawyer with health challenges. And as you said, that so many of these lessons that I, you know, had learned through my medical journey, um, and then subsequent really to that post, and then more recently, with all the everything that I sought out to learn through my neuroperformance training in initially for my health, it all matters for work. You know, and we have this um crazy thing in the industry, which I think is starting to dissipate, where we think, you know, oh, you you have to be this person at work and this person in the rest of your life. And that's just not how it works. And when we can recognize that the things that you're learning in your personal life also overlap. This is like Gwen, what you were talking about talking about with your bringing your vacation self into work. I mean, I love that because we're we're one person, and we just happen to also have jobs.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. That concept of work-life balance that presumes work is one thing and life is another thing, and they like they don't exist together. Like, no, you actually, it's just humaning, and that human does things like rest and play and work, and you know. How do you play? Hmm. So I really do enjoy just being outside, and even um we work from home most days of the week. Um, and I've shifted where my office is on our property, and so I'm outside less now. But one of my favorite things is just like, even when I'm working, can I sit outside and work? Can I be out in fresh air? And that means I'm gonna get up and notice. Like, I'm gonna walk around and see the butterfly on the hibiscus, or like I'm gonna say hello to the neighbors' chickens and hope they don't chase me, right? Whatever it is. But it noticing, and I like that is just like a super easy thing during my work that lets my brain play a little, um, that I really enjoy just that integrated bit. But then, you know, anytime I could be out on the water, if I can get out on the boat or go for a paddle or whatever, I definitely am gonna take the chance to do that. I'm taking up golf, um, which has been fun. I I took golf lessons when I was a baby lawyer and realized pretty quickly that in that environment, like, who has time for golfing? What is this? What is this very strange subset of people who have figured out a golf and lawyer? Um, and with small children, like that that wasn't a great fit. But where I am in life now, my kids are adult and near adult. And um, and so like that frees up some time for golf and all that stuff, but traveling and you know, finding opportunities for adventure and and just connecting with my people. That's that's my play. That and and like reading. I read as much as I can.

SPEAKER_01

I love your nature focus. So I mentioned we're in Costa Rica right now, and we're in an area where they're they're we're just surrounded by monkeys so much of the time. And I've had moments in my in my office, I just I'm usually sitting right outside, and I've had moments where I just like there's a monkey. And so I just pause what I'm doing and I go and just stare at the monkey. Not stare at that, but I'm standing still. I'm jumping up and down, squealing that there's a monkey. It sounds like I'm right back to work with so much excitement. Yes, and I'm super focused, but like I've had this, you know, two-minute break where I'm just so so energized, and that then helps me get back and actually move faster.

SPEAKER_00

Yep.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

How do you pick one? Yeah. I honestly I think the answer to that is is it depends on the season, right? Like literally the season of life, and then the season of the year. And um, Whitney made the point of us working at home, and I I it is hard for me to remember that I spent most of my career getting dressed, in heels, going downtown, sitting in an office on the 42nd floor, right? Going out for lunch and going back and sitting in that office again for the rest of the day. And I I can't even, I'm like, that's a it's a different human. I I I can't even imagine because the one day that we go to the office, we have this lovely office on the first floor, and and still like I get a little antsy because I'm like, we've been inside. We've been inside all day. We haven't like taken a breath of fresh air. And um, I live across the street from the ocean, and I on the back of my property is a state park. Um and so like I need like the salt air, the fresh air, the sound of the waves, and and I think back to it, like there was so much in my life I didn't have that. I also had children, right? And so you're you know, the the the play was taking them to the park, right? Or the play was seeing them play a sport or whatever it might be. Now they're all adults, and so that's why two weeks vacation worked, right? And and when I even look at vacation, like I spent a lot of vacation almost checkbox, right? Like I did this, I did this, I did this. Now I'm like, now I just want to feel what it's like to be at a human pace and and get to know what what I like, right? Because I I've spent so much of like making sure you were taken care of and you were taken care of, and you, you know, like everyone was um, and I loved it. And I'm in a different place now, even to the point of the days are short right now. And I'm trying just to acknowledge that the days are short and like accept that because I want to keep going and have the energy. And why why can't why isn't the sun up at nine o'clock? Right, but it's not, right? It's the winter, and so we're we're supposed to be quieter and slower and more reflective and and and acknowledging that and accepting it is practice, it takes practice. You mentioned heels.

SPEAKER_01

I have given a lot of thought to clothes. I partly, I mean, I have a love of clothes. I used to, my initial career plan was to have a career in fashion. But I I remember very distinctly in law school when we were given some sort of guidebook around like this is what you wear. And then I remember going to a networking event at a law firm, and the first person at the firm that I saw was someone wearing a wrap dress, and I was so confused because I'm like a much less so now, but I historically was a serious rule follower. And the rules had said, you know, this kind of a suit, this color nail polish, these kind of heels, like that much detail. And then the first person I saw at the firm didn't align with that, and I didn't, I didn't want to be wearing what I was wearing. I was so uncomfortable, but that's what I thought we were supposed to do. And I then spent many years not wearing stuff that felt good. And I'm so aware of the impact of comfort on how my brain functions. So you work from home most of the time. What are you wearing? And how do you have on shorts?

SPEAKER_02

I usually have on shorts and flip-flops and like you know, like something that looks like a jacket on top. So I have on long pants because it was cold this morning. Now I'm regretting that, but I'm barefoot.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I'm on barefoot. Statement earrings with shorts and barefoot is is my MO.

SPEAKER_01

I I like that. I like this group focused on barefoot.

SPEAKER_02

Yes. Yes. Well, Ariella, this you'll laugh at this, but when I started practicing law, I went up and visited my friend in Atlanta, and there was an Ann Taylor up there. There was not an Ann Taylor in Jacksonville at the time. And I bought all of these very cute pants, and I came back to work and wore them and was asked if I was doing a document review. Like, like the P the women partners in the firm believed that you must wear a skirt or a dress. And I was like, this is not my place. This is not this is not a long-term place for me. No. I'm like, in my Ann Taylor pants? No.

SPEAKER_01

When you got that feedback, did you understand in that moment, oh, this is not the right place for me? I should start figuring out what, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

No, I I will say the the honestly the bigger issue at that even at that time was like I couldn't get my head around hours as the measure of of success. I I just like I'm like, I've spent this life of being in school and learning the material and getting like getting the answers right and impressing the professor or teacher. And now you just want me to sit in my office and and take as much time as like I don't get my brain, doesn't work that way. It it wants to get the solution fast. So you're like, if I get the solution fast, then I'm not going to get enough hours and you're not going to be happy. I I that that was probably the first, like, I can't reconcile all of this.

SPEAKER_01

So that's fair.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Looking looking back now at your you know, yourselves starting out in your career, if if you could help yourselves understand what you now know about well-being and how you actually think about success and sort of your understanding of life at this point, what would you go back and tell yourselves?

SPEAKER_02

It's I'll say it's funny that you made the comment about posting on social media some of those stories. And I have posted some of those, and I and I don't love to talk about like family, but I have posted some of them just for the hope that someone will read it who is early in their career, and understand that despite the fact that all of the messages they're getting is work as hard as you possibly can and and sacrifice everything because that's the most important thing. If if they can understand that they're gonna be okay, that that they can say no, that they can build healthy boundaries. I think, you know, again, I've said this a couple times. I learned from Whitney. Whitney had like just incredible confidence, like, no, I'm I'm I'm going to be a full human, and I am a full human. And you know, work is gonna fit in the in the parts around that, and I'm gonna do it really well.

SPEAKER_01

Um, so perpetually Whitney, did you feel like you had that confidence? Or where where did that come from?

SPEAKER_02

And when did it we ask this all the time?

SPEAKER_00

Like, how did your parents raise you? Yeah, it's it's unclear how I ended up the way I am, Ariela. I was born with an outsized dose of confidence, and uh, and I really am not sure why. Um, no, I mean I I do think I grew up with parents who I saw choosing to live life differently. Um and kind of breaking out, you know, my dad's parents were um a sheriff and an OBGYN who was chief of staff at a hospital, right? They were they were living a very like high-powered life. And um, my mom and dad moved out to the family's lake house and were like, yeah, we're we're gonna do the small town thing. And it just a very different pace and um different choices. And I had exposure to kind of all the sides of that family in a way that showed me that it really was okay to choose differently. And so I think, you know, in retrospect, I think that's a big part of it. But I still would go back and tell myself much more explicitly. Like I think I inherently knew that, like it was okay to make choices differently, and that um that I did have a right and a responsibility to choose my own adventure and choose my own outcomes. Um, and responsibility, like if I didn't like how things were going, that it's up to me to change that. Um but I think if I had to go back and tell myself something kind of early career, I think it would really be like you do get to design the way that you work. You get to design your outcomes. And yes, there are things in life that happen that you didn't choose, but there's a lot you can choose and a lot you can design for. And and it may not be perfect, but you can be iterating toward it in a really in a really cool way, honestly, in a really powerful way, and have a lot of agency over your life. And um, I probably would have benefited from more um I don't know, planful thinking in that, in that way earlier in my career. Uh I had I had some lucky breaks that put me in the right places that helped me to navigate to you know the life I have today, which was is amazing and I'm grateful for that. But I think that acknowledgement of like being mindful about the design of the life you want um is super important. And you you really can impact the outcomes if you if you care to think about it and and be like take action on it, right? Um so I and I and the other thing I would say is it is much more true than I would have ever realized that you can and probably should adjust that design and be willing to shift what you've said, what outcomes you've said you want at different phases in your life. I think I had this image of like you gotta get on one train and that's your train and you're going. And it's still hard for me to say, okay, yes, we decided to go these, you know, do this thing, and now we want to shift, and and we're doing that intentionally, and you know, and we're choosing to let some some energy be you know wasted because we took it put it in that direction or whatever, but like we want a different outcome in this phase, and so let's do that. So you think that you know the iterative being okay with an iterative process and an iterative life, right?

SPEAKER_01

I love that. I love talking to you both. Whitney, you have a call in a minute. So I do. I do too. I do too. But I I could keep going forever. This is so good. This is so much.

SPEAKER_00

This should be really fun.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, good. Well, maybe we'll do a part three. I'm actually planning to do like a whole group podcast thing because I'd love to have like a bunch of people just do this and then we'll share it. And so I'll email you about that.

SPEAKER_03

Love it.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you so much. Hop on your next call and I'll follow up by email. Thank you for spending so much. Thank you. Thanks for listening. I hope you got a ton of value from this conversation, and that you will check out the links in the description to learn more about the guest and the wellness esquire. And I hope you take even just one minute to do something for yourself today. Maybe right now. Drink more water, say no, call a friend, do something that makes you happy, have a 30 second dance party, find something to make you happy. Also, be sure to subscribe and send the podcast to a colleague. And if we're not yet connected on LinkedIn, please fix that. I'd love to know you. See you next time.

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Ariella Cohen Coleman

Host
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Talya Drissman Woolf

Producer