The Wellness Esquire Podcast

He Couldn't Read a Book. Now He Coaches High Performers. Jonathan Z. Cohen

• Ariella Cohen Coleman

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Before he was a Bronx Special Victims prosecutor, an IDF combat veteran, or in-house counsel, or a coach to high performers, Jonathan Z. Cohen was a kid who couldn't get through a single page of a book. In this episode, Ariella Cohen Coleman sits down with Jonathan to trace the entire arc - from a childhood "learning disability" label, to the chance encounter that got him into college, to five years of public service, to coaching high performers on adaptability and mental toughness today.

Jonathan shares the story of the friend who was the first person to ever tell him he didn't actually have a learning disability, what he carried home from serving in the IDF and prosecuting Special Victims cases, and why he treats recovery as something active rather than passive. He and Ariella also get into why neither of them drinks, and what it's like to say "I don't drink" without over-explaining yourself.

If you've ever wondered how much of who you are was decided for you early on, and whether it's too late to go back and question it, this conversation is for you.

About the guest:

Jonathan Z. Cohen is an in-house attorney at PNY Technologies, host of Inside The Inspired podcast, former Bronx Special Victims Unit criminal prosecutor, IDF infantry combat veteran, and endurance athlete. He speaks and coaches on mental toughness, adaptability, and performance under pressure.

Resources Mentioned:


Host Info: Ariella Cohen Coleman

The Wellness Esquire: a bold new path where wellbeing, happiness, and authenticity drive performance and success. https://thewellnessesquire.com

Ariella Law, PC: strategic legal support for entrepreneurs, growing companies, and mission-driven organizations — formation, contracts, compliance, and fractional general counsel, delivered project-based or by subscription. https://ariellalaw.com/

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Host Info: Ariella Cohen Coleman

The Wellness Esquire: a bold new path where wellbeing, happiness, and authenticity drive performance and success. https://thewellnessesquire.com

Ariella Law, PC: strategic legal support for entrepreneurs, growing companies, and mission-driven organizations — formation, contracts, compliance, and fractional general counsel, delivered project-based or by subscription. https://ariellaw.com/

Follow Ariella:

Connect & Explore:

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SPEAKER_03

I started this podcast because I wanted to bring more people into the kinds of conversations I was having with lawyers who are doing things differently, who were thinking about well-being, performance, and happiness. This episode of the Wellness Esquire podcast is the sort of thing I was going for. It's a conversation between friends more than it is an interview. Today's guest is Jonathan Cohen. Now he's a lawyer, podcast host of Inside the Inspired, where he interviews some of the top performers in the world and he's a performance expert himself, training lawyers around the country to show up as their best selves. But it wasn't always clear that this would be Jonathan's story. Jonathan was a disengaged kid who couldn't figure out how to learn. And as he's described it, he barely even made it out of high school. But with the right support system and guidance, he graduated high school, served in the IDF, and went on to college, law school, and business school, before serving as a special victims unit prosecutor, and now as an in-house counsel at a tech company. Jonathan and I go down all sorts of rabbit holes. Of course, we talk about his story and high performance practices, but we also talk about the value of thinking for yourself, challenging your beliefs, questioning everything, and owning who you are. And for us, part of that is about being proud Jews, even or especially in a world where a lot of people hate who we are without even knowing us. Thank you for being part of the Wellness Esquire community. Be sure to please rate and subscribe. Excellent. Hello.

SPEAKER_02

We did it.

SPEAKER_03

We did it. How are you doing today?

SPEAKER_00

I'm well. How are you?

SPEAKER_03

I'm good. I don't remember if we had talked about this. I had started to record for the Wellness Esquire podcast pre-October 7th. Yes. And then priorities shifted. But that first round of recordings that I haven't actually released when I, you know, hit pause led me to discover that I it felt too formal for what I'm going for to do like a whole thing, which is what most people do, of you know, not starting the recording button at the outset. And I would have all these conversations before we officially started. Oh man, wait, that's the vulnerable stuff. I wanna, I wanna, you know, have everybody here. And so I just decided, you know what, we're gonna start from scratch. And if anybody says anything, then like, oh, I don't want anyone to hear that, but we can take it out. It hasn't happened yet.

SPEAKER_00

But it's the releasing on the on the whiteboard portion.

SPEAKER_03

You know what? So we can take it out. Um, but I also like I love the real stuff because we all put on this performance and make it seem like we've always got everything all buttoned up and put together, and it's just not true.

SPEAKER_00

No, I really try to take the same like posture. I don't know exactly what you mean because that would be like almost 200 at this point. So well, probably 200, some somehow published what's crazy. It's one of that those that I mean it feels like nothing, but it's been like a few years. So I know I appreciate that, but at the same time, like you know, it's one of those things that you're right, people do put on a show, especially when they're first starting, and how you go about being like real. I find that the best guests are the ones that are like just ready to go. I don't care if you edit out. I used to edit like a regular uh um, like I used to take out everything, and I was just like, you know what? Like, I don't need to have a whole crazy intro. I just want to start up the conversation, and like if you want to know who this person is, look them, I'll like just assume credibility and that I have vetted them, and that's why I'm super particular about who comes on the pod. Like, that's exactly I know exactly what you mean. It matters.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I mean that's part of of course why I want you on, because we share so much of like our we have a similar vibe and we're going for different similar things in different ways and really value the authenticity. And so how how does it feel being in the guest seat?

SPEAKER_00

It's weird. It's definitely weird. I've been interviewed much, but like not I don't think I've been interviewed on the riverside. I think I've been interviewed, like there'll always be questions coming my way, but like that's that's the craziest part. Like I was sat across from like I was interviewing Ryan Hawk, uh, who's the host of Learning Leader shows of like massive podcasts and learning downloads, and uh in the middle of the show he just starts interviewing me. And I was like, what is happening? I'm in control. But he was just curious and interested, and I find that the best hosts just like really aren't putting on a show, they're genuinely following curiosity. So guys like him or Eric Jorgensen, like he just started asking, I just put out another episode with him last week. Uh his book sold like five million plus copies, uh, the Omnac and the blah blah blah kind of and he started asking me questions in the middle of the end of me, and I was like, it's happening again, like I'm kidding, you know, but those are the best ones.

SPEAKER_03

They're amazing, and it excites me because I mean the purpose of the podcast is for it to be of value to people. So if people who are on as guests are are interested enough in me and what I'm doing and why that they want to turn it into an interview of me, um I wasn't expecting it, but that was actually that ended up being um the first episode that I put out. I was one of these episodes where he he started asking me the questions, and I was like, oh, I think I think I should switch you know my my podcast release schedule because this is perfect. This, you know, kind of provides the uh the background to why I'm doing this. Uh thank you for for coming on as a guest so you can interview me. It was great. I mean a part of what's so much fun is, and I imagine you find this too, is just like it's one way of finding your people.

SPEAKER_00

100%.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

100%.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I've made genuine friends from having a podcast. It's been like the most rewarding thing. Like people who listen, or the people that I interview, or my editor. Like it's just well, I wonder if we'd still be friends if I stop paying, but either way, like it's almost it's one of those things that it really is about surrounding yourself with people who are interested in the same topics, who genuinely want the same things for you or themselves, and like geek out on the same things and are curious about the same things. And I always say that I learned this a few years ago at this point when I used to get all the one wolf and one wolf. And I realized by the time like a little more from the stream rate, uh, and community is actually the superchargers, so I joined a rum club a few years ago, which I would ask me, you know, a few years before that. I only did it for like four or five months, or like three months, whatever. And if you would ask me like a year or two before, if I was gonna be like, no, I'm alone, or one friend for some intensity, like kind of something on a mission, like there was no chip. And then I find this run club where it's like varying skill set, people better than me, people out of my tier, people worse, or you know, aspiring to be better, whatever, to like what you say would be this is the part that it right now. Um I found I just found like as a result, I got faster, I got better, and I realized like surrounding myself with these kinds of people, like finding my people to replay, like that is what brings out the best in me. And it's not a group thing, it's really like the amplifying of the best sides of who you are because you're surrounded by like-minded people, and you don't want to be in an echo chamber, but at the same time, like like especially as the lawyers know this, right? It's always about arguing kind of so like I'll listen to and this kind of fits in, like, I'll listen to the soundpike or I'll listen to the font as I want to know what they argue, so I can argue back against it. I want to know what like I don't just want to say they're stupid and not listen, I want to know why I think they're stupid. And after listening to them, I can articulate multiple reading, I could go on for an hour about why they're stupid. And it's some that it's like content like that people are afraid to listen to. They just want to take the posture of you know short form virality, like even vacuum, that content is stupid. But you and I both know that long form is really where you get to know people, but you also have to challenge your thoughts. So as much as it's healthy to surround yourself with like-minded people and you know group thing, at the same time, like you have to challenge your thought process and you have to challenge your your beliefs to make sure that they're actually your beliefs and why, you know, because otherwise you're just subconsciously trained and brainwashed, as opposed to like, is this my value? Like, is this my belief? Like, why? So that and that's a journey in and of itself, right? But yeah, you get it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and and just letting yourself even be okay with changing your mind and and either recognize like that maybe you were wrong before, or that you've just evolved and now you have a different viewpoint.

SPEAKER_00

That that's that's the main thing. Like, because I mean to even further amplify it, I can't sit here and objectively say like those guys are stupid. I I think they know how to, I think they're good communicators, but I obviously don't agree with the arguments and points. And so it I mean for obvious reasons, but like those are the those are the things. I don't want to be in a vacuum saying like someone is stupid. I want to be able to argue against the substance of what someone has to say instead of being emotionally charged and not having any ground to stand on because I'm blinded by my emotion. And that is what I find to be a big blind spot for people in general. And in 2026, I mean Jewish people especially, like we can't afford to be blinded by emotions, you know, and everything is so emotionally charged. And so the best thing that we can do is train ourselves and arm ourselves with the insight, perspective, and the and the wisdom to go and understand what the opposite side is saying, so we can prepare ourselves to argue accordingly, you know, or debate accordingly, or stand on our principles with a substantive premise that makes sense and is rooted in values that you can stand behind.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. You know, you're you're making me think of a conversation I had with Loyal Sharif. Do you know who that is? He's a he's a content creator, he's got a I don't know, a zillion. Loyal Sharif. I hope I'm saying his name right, I'll ask him. I've been off Instagram for like a year, so if I'm not sure, yeah, I you know, so he he's uh he was raised in Saudi Arabia and uh you know raised to hate Jews and to hate Israel. And when he went on, I think it was a study abroad program to France, he was assigned to stay with a Jewish family. And I think he didn't know it until he arrived, and he must not have known until he arrived. So he got there, he saw, you know, Jewish things around the home and freaked out and was like, I'm gonna get out of this place. And the program, I hope I'm articulating his story accurately, um, was kind of like that it doesn't work quite like that. And so he ended up sticking around, and the experience led him to just start questioning everything he'd been taught his whole life growing up, and then you know, up against what he was actually experiencing with these real life Jews. And he's now like his entire life and career is around traveling the world, advocating for the Abraham Accords, and speak he speaks Hebrew now. He's an incredible advocate. And I asked him, what was it that allowed you not even to change your views, just to start questioning everything you'd ever been told? And his answer was courage. And especially because of the way he'd grown up, you know, in Judaism, we're like it's a you know, we question everything. We're trained, we're guided to question. I think a lot of that, in some ways, in the way we're you know educated in school and even our careers, we're we sometimes I think get trained out of questioning everything and we're just taught, you know, it's the ready way, but it is part of our, you know, just Judaism. We question everything, two Jews, three opinions, at least. And but you know, in other cultures, you're not permitted to do that. And sometimes it can be dangerous. And so, anyways, but but your, you know, this conversation was just making me think of you know, in any setting, it can be courageous to just start questioning everything you've ever thought, whether it's, you know, it in something as serious as do hate or just like what you like, what you don't like, what you think you want your life to look like, what you think you want your career to look like, who you think you are, those kinds of questions, you know, just who what's your identity? Do you do you like how you're showing up? And if not, like are you ready to face that and start making some changes? Because you you can make changes. But first you gotta face it.

SPEAKER_00

1,000%. That idea of questioning your beliefs is essential to developing community. It's tough. Like people don't know.

SPEAKER_03

I was I always tell the story when it comes to value, but I know I'm talking about dreamers and uh we are gonna get into your IDF service anyway, so we'll start stay a little more centered because um I'll send you clips afterwards and uh you know pretend you're talking to uh I don't want to stop you from moving around.

SPEAKER_01

I'm also around um you'll see that I'm generally dancing all the time.

SPEAKER_03

Um I'm I'm still when I do a podcast, right? I'm still I'm still from here up. My hands are usually doing something like this that you can't see because this is like a brain booster. Uh I can I can teach you how to dance below screen.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I I tell a story because I was driving back from the entrance later like a couple years ago. I was engaged in that one at the time we were uh driving back one of our friends, and one of the friend's friends that you know was I had never met before, but I was doing it for a show. It's like a couple hours back, you know, plus the traffic, and so we're listening the whole time, so like love life for this woman that me and my wife had never met before, and I'm staying quiet the whole time, but then like in the last 15-20 minutes as we go into New York, this topic of like you know, being Jewish and why being Jewish uh is important uh comes up and she brings up this whole idea that the everything that we're brainwashed to think a certain way and believe a certain type of thing. And in the back of my head, I'm like, alright, I've been quiet for like two hours, and now we're like in a different kind of territory, alright? And both my grandparents are Holocaust survivors, I visited the concentration camps, I saw those camps with my own eyes, I served in the idea, but even independent of that, like I take it very personally, obviously, because my family was murdered across generations, so like there is no like even if you take out the whole Judaism portion of it and the whole brainwashing component of it, and I was taught to think a certain type of way. Fact. My grandmother had her siblings murdered, my grandfather had a siblings murdered. There's family I'll never meet because of those murders, and even if I am quote-unquote brainwashed, like I have seen those grounds. I saw houses in the background, I saw the bunkers, I saw gas chambers, I touched those walls. There is no universe in which I have been brainwashed. There is a reality that like we have a responsibility to uphold tradition, to uphold values that reflect or in intrinsically, I believe this, I feel this. And I never really talk about these things because I feel at least publicly, usually I'm all about the mental fitness. I stay out of the politics. Like I really, I really don't politics. So it's like it's not politics, but it gets coined into politics. I understand the whole distinguishing between Israel, Jewish people, and the Israeli government. I'm okay with that argument. You know, anti-Semitism versus like not liking the Israeli government and their decision making. I I understand that very, very much. I'm I'm on board with that argument. Do what you gotta do. Okay? Just because you don't agree with what the government does doesn't mean you hate Jewish people, sure. But do you actually do that way? You know, so they're two separate things, right? So most people hide behind that argument, in my opinion. Separate conversation. But to be brainwashed, and the reason why it's important to question beliefs is because someone could equally uh convince you that you have been brainwashed because you've spent your whole life reactive to things instead of being intentional about questioning our beliefs and questioning their values. And so when you're rooted in your values and understand what you stand for based on what we do, not what you say you do, then it's easy to understand that you're not brainwashed. Because then you're the person that's done the work, done the investigating, understand like, no, not just the history, but I agree with the chronology, I agree with the sequence, I agree with the way things unfolded, I agree with these things that we have done in response to whatever history has unfolded in whatever way it has. So, like in that moment where I hear someone, you could hear the insecurity like emanating to her voice in that moment. Like, do you feel like you know we've ever been brainwashed? No, I don't feel I've been brainwashed. I feel I've done the work and I've questioned my values. It sounds like you have not done the work and you need to figure out for yourself, or like my family is murder Jewish or not. Like, it is very personal, you know? So like that's where it stops and starts. And this Saturday usually doesn't come out, so I'm very uh but I guess this is the usually we say like a little recording now, this is the vulnerable stuff. Yeah, we got we got the vulnerable stuff.

SPEAKER_03

I love that it's coming out. I appreciate that it's coming out. It's it's it's odd to say this in this context, but I'm sort of amused that it's coming out now because so many of my podcast recordings have actually started with talking about this to some degree. Um, and it's you know, sometimes it's a guest coming on, and you know, on one occasion it was they didn't realize that I had started before, and I was mentioning, you know, I started this, you know, before October 7th, and then I got, you know, I just my boundary or my my um my bandwidth changed and my priorities changed, and now I'm back, and it led to a whole discussion around, oh my God, I didn't realize you were such an advocate for you know what's been going on. And he started sharing just how astonished he's been to observe the anti-Semitism and the you know, just the absolute due hatred. And I didn't know the podcast was gonna start that way. And we've had guests come on who just start with, you know, they they some of the people who I I had canceled with or you know, rescheduled for you know two years later, um, who became friends in that period of time because they understood why I had to cancel and why my priorities changed. And so a number of these conversations start with talking about what's going on because more people are horrified by it than a lot of people realize. You know, there's the relative few of us who speak up about it in on every possible platform, and then there's there's more people also allies, it's not just Jews who are are are horrified and are actually looking for ways to speak up. I was just on someone's podcast, and she's gonna be out uh on on mine in a couple of weeks. Non-Jewish, um, you know, Christian ally who posted on LinkedIn that she was so bored of what was going on with LinkedIn. And here's what I want to talk about. I want to talk about anti-Semitism. What's going on with it? Why are we not talking about it in law? And I was on her podcast to talk about my law firm, the Wellness Esquire, and anti-Semitism and chosen what I'm building with that, and um, to bring together people who love Jews and who love Israel, and so that we can all help each other find who and what we all need around the world to thrive personally, professionally, and as a community. And she wants more conversations, this ally about um her name is Heather, uh, about the horrible things going on. So there's more of us out there who want to be talking about this and who are looking for platforms to just let people know that we're not actually the minority voice, we're just a quieter one.

SPEAKER_00

I think that's something you know. I learned that lesson playing fantasy basketball. So a few years ago, me and my brother used to be in the same read, and it was with a bunch of our boys, and so every year we do a trade. And we do a trade in this one particular year, a few years ago, and a bunch of people start texting the group chat. This is unfair, they're colluding, blah blah blah. We put it to a vote, and the trade goes through. And so I learned in that moment just because you're louder, doesn't mean there's more of you. And then as I've seen over the last few years the same thing unfold with everything since October. I mean, I one of its things, but since October 7th in specific, it's a quieter majority. You've seen it unfold in elections, you've seen it unfold in many different areas over you know in geopolitics and otherwise over the last few years. But being a quiet majority isn't necessarily a bad thing, but people don't feel it's necessarily safe to speak up, right? You may not want to speak Hebrew in a public place because you're afraid of what happened in California and San Jose a couple months ago, it may happen in New York, you know, or in Paris, or whatever. And like these are real things. You know, I'm very I'm I'm a trained martial artist, I'm physically very capable, and like I can't pretend to fight off 10 people at once. You know what I mean? So like there's those elements of reality where you have to be very mindful of even if they're a quiet majority, inaction is a real thing, and so that quiet majority could still believe, but again, values are what you do, and so unfortunately, people do not act in moments that require action, and that can create an unsafe reality for people. So it's great to have a space where we talk about it, but at the same time, what do we do about it? And for me, that is really uh you know a sticking point, especially as like this war is fought on many fronts: social media war, the information war, the actual physical war, right? And so, like how the refugee aspect, like there's so many different elements that go along with this that people are not aware of, and awareness is essential when it comes to any type of personal, professional development, or even just having any kind of conversation, right? Like this one. Well, I'm sure in the first few minutes we've eliminated some of the audience things that they weren't aware of, just like they could eliminate us to things that we're not aware of. But like that's where it starts. Like, oh, I didn't know that. Well, now you do it. Now what do you do about it? You know? So it's great to talk, but I think a big part of it is like, what do we do? And uh, you know, at least conversations are a great place to figure out what actions we could take. So hopefully by the end of this conversation, we can leave the audience with a couple different actions that we can challenge them to take as a result.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, well, and I think some of the action just it I it it does start with talking. You know, it it starts with um, you know, there's so many well-meaning, highly educated, good people out there who just don't know. And maybe they have a gut feeling that there's something they don't know, and or maybe they just have no clue. Maybe they were brainwashed. There's there's all sorts of versions of you know what's going on out there. But when we can, I think one of the goals is it's not necessarily to change someone's mind in the moment, but if we can just leave someone with a question and a little curiosity, and they can be drawn in. You know, I I changed my social media strategy, I want to say about 14 months after October 7th. Starting with October 7th, I really for about 12, 14 months, I think, um, posted 99% just about anti-Semitism in Israel. And that was my I can't call it a strategy at that point. It was just what I felt I had to do. And it was, you know, people started reaching out to me well beyond what I could manage because I became one of the people that people would go to when they were experiencing anti-Semitism and they didn't know where to go to for help, and I started to know the answers to that. And so I was making all these connections and helping people find who they needed. It was rarely me, I was just the connector. Um, but then about 14 months in, I started getting back to talking about the other things that are part of my life and my story. I started talking about, you know, being an attorney with a really complex health history. I started talking about the wellness esquire again and getting figuring out how to get back into talking about lawyer well-being. Um, and and just talking about other aspects of who I am and what's important to me and how I got here in my journey, um, partly because I've, you know, I've got businesses to run, you know, I and and you know, LinkedIn brings me a lot of clients. In fact, I think in large part, it's really stemmed from me speaking up more and more about who I am and what I believe in. Um but part of that intentional strategy shift was also about well, I want I want people who are interested in what I'm talking about because of you know my health and the lawyer well-being and these sorts of things. I want them to come to me for that and then see something that I write about Israel or about Jews and go, I didn't know Israel was the same size as New Jersey and that it's surrounded by countries that are trying to wipe it off the map map. Most people don't know that. So I want people to come in and be interested in something else that I have to say, and then just go, I had no idea. I didn't know that you know every building in Israel is required by law to have a bomb shelter. Why would that be? Oh, because all the countries around it are trying to kill people there? So, you know, it it starts with just dropping a little bit of information for people to, in a way that's more accessible, I think, for someone to start just looking into a little bit on their own. And and then the more people we have who just understand a little bit more about the actual facts and who know Jews and who know Israelis and can see what we really look like in real life, then more people have experience with us. And you know, we become less alien. That's not the only solution. There's certainly plenty of people who have experience with Jews and Israelis and are still anti-Semitic and dangerous for us. But some people, just once they start to get a little exposure, like Loe, who I mentioned before, um, that can be the beginning to more safety for us and for everybody. So shifting gears a little bit. I always think I always have a plan. I've got questions to get me started. And at least half of the time, you know, we go somewhere else entirely. And it's the vibe that I want for the podcast is not this, you know, formal interview kind of setting. I want it to just feel like a conversation. And and a really big um element that led to the podcast in the first place was I was having all these amazing conversations with lawyers in our space and other thought leaders who are just like, hey, we can do this better. We could we can help each other out, we can take care of ourselves and be happy and healthy and not burn out. And I was having all these private conversations. And every time I had a conversation and met someone new, I was like, why did it take so long for us to find each other? And then when I would, when someone would find me, or I would find someone, and I was their first kind of person in the industry that they felt they could be authentic and vulnerable with, I was like, oh no, but there's so many of us, you just don't know. And someone just said to me recently, I had no idea there was this secret group of happy lawyers out there. And now she's part of it, but she only just found out after she'd been miserable for so long. So I want to just open up those one-on-one conversations with people and sometimes the little groups to everyone and say, I mean, kind of like what we were talking about before, but different context, there's so many of us. We just have been quiet and we just need to get louder. And we've got so many incredible people who are you know part of this whole lawyer well-being transformation. And once you find them, you're like, oh wow, we got we got great people, we're moving in the right direction. But until you find them, you think you're all alone. And I think you're not alone. So with with most guests, I I start with, you know, kind of what led you to law school in the first place, but because I know a bit more about your story, I want to go farther back. Okay, and I want to talk about your experience as a kid, especially in school, with what learning was like for you.

SPEAKER_00

It was not fun. It was a very insecure experience for me. It was very, I was very disengaged. I was constantly feeling like I didn't know where I had no awareness. I had no self-awareness. And whatever self-awareness I did have was very minimal. It was largely because whenever a book was placed in front of me, I'd want to put it to the side. I pretend to read it, and I remember my mom would come and ask me if I read a book, and I'd say yes, and she would look through the pages, she's like, it doesn't look like it's ever been touched before. And sometimes I'd even just pick up the book just to mess with the pages, just someone would think that I read the book. And it was a very difficult I didn't see words, I didn't see ideas, I didn't see or or comprehend concepts at all. They would just go over my head. And I felt like whenever I did try to pay attention, like I was, you know, 75 minutes into a 90-minute movie, and it was very difficult for me to have any relativity as to whatever the substance or whatever content or topic was being addressed in school. So I would have tutors around the clock, I would have after school support, I was placed in the level two learning. I guess there's like level one, level two, I'd be placed in the lower level of learning. I don't really remember what it was called. And it was difficult for me to really understand things because nothing made sense, and so the things that did make sense were like playing basketball with my friends or talking to girls or music, and so that's what I gravitated towards, and my report card reflected that, and so naturally when it came time to apply for school, it didn't it wasn't an easy process, I had critical thinking issues, I had apprehension issues, and so that can impact your identity, impact the opinion that you have of yourself, and so you make insecure decisions and you self-sabotage in the form of people pleasing and hanging out with the wrong people and procrastinating. So learning was a very arduous experience because nothing interested me, and any shot that I had at trying to understand was not really possible because there was no I didn't care to, there was no intention to. And it wasn't anyone's fault, it wasn't for it definitely was for lack of trying, but that's largely what it what it came down to. No effort on my part, and especially when I reflect on it now, I know there was no effort on my part, and it was hidden behind a masta of learning disability. I remember I was hanging out with you know one of my friends when I was in law school, and she was like, You don't have a learning disability. It was the first time in my life anyone ever said that to me, and I realized like maybe I don't. And it really comes down to that whole story you tell yourself of like you know, I would take the Adderall or concerta, I'd see the therapist, and you know, like I said, I had all these tutors, and so it creates this environment and this narrative around you need help. And I said, okay, I was very passive, and even the help wasn't helping, again, just for lack of effort on my part. No action, no execution. And so I would still do really cool after-school activities, I would learn how to fly planes, I would clean private jets, I would, you know, I'd work in a warehouse, like I would do things with my hands in my life, but in school I just had no affinity to it. So learning was a very, very difficult experience because nothing interested me. And no one, I think, really created a space except for like one or two tutors and my parents, all the credit in the world to my parents, for fostering an environment that like helped me link through a lot of school uh to get to where I'm at today. But uh it was really tough. It was super tough.

SPEAKER_03

So, how did you go from that experience where you just you didn't care, you were struggling to connect with anything, you weren't really learning anything, to of course, you then became a special victims prosecutor, you know, you're an in-house tech lawyer, you're a sought-after speaker on performance between high school and college, you you know served in the IDF. So connect all these doctrines. How do you go from I just don't care about anything and I I'm not able to learn to look now?

SPEAKER_00

Thank you for all of that. I was I'm very humbled by that. I think a big part of it is that I'm very I'm very fortunate to have angels in my life that believe in. And it would be a tutor, or it would be my parents that just did the work for me in many ways. They helped me find this. I I remember the day my guidance counselor, my high school guidance counselor said, there's a school I think you should apply to called Meenberg. They look at students like you, they see the potential, and I think you're a prime candidate for an education at Mühlenburg. And then I had another tutor who said Jonathan would interview really well, and it won't come across on paper. So you should have him interview at all these schools and see what opportunities come from there. So I remember driving up to Mühlenburg with my dad, and there was this for the interview, and there was this woman, you know, and my mom actually, you know, if I back up even more, my mom actually had the idea to interview during winter break because the holidays everyone was in a good mood. You know, remember Christian, he has happy holidays, always high energy, right? So it's a winter break at college, and so I'm like a junior in high school, senior in high school, I guess senior. And you know, we're driving up and I'm going back and forth with my dad on potential energy questions, and then we pull up. I see this woman struggling with her boxes, I help through a couple doors, she's super thankful, ends up being my interviewer, and she doesn't stop talking about how I helped her with the boxes the whole time. Saw my SAT, said you know, it's good enough. Saw my GPA, said you know, it we'll figure something out. Fast forward, she calls up, she calls me up uh a few weeks later, and he's like, Well, I'm not gonna be able to take you. Um I was like, What can I do? Like, I this is the first shot I've ever thought that I could have a gun in college. Like, what do you need me to do? I'll do anything. He's like, we could talk to the dean of admissions. That's followed again. I ended up interviewing with the dean of admissions, and my dad is the one that actually spoke to him, and uh, because the dean wouldn't need to be at first. And I remember him telling the dean, he's like, When was the last time you met with someone for five minutes and changed their life? And so the dean met with me, and the five minutes turned into 45 minutes, and at the end of the interview, uh, he goes, Well, Princeton just came out with this article about taking a year off uh is a very you know positive life experience, and maybe that would be what's most beneficial in your case, and so I was like, Am I gonna get admitted if I do this? He's like, I will recommend you for admission if you can maintain a certain GPA for the rest of the year, and you take a year off. I was like, okay, and so I did, and I used that time to serve an IDF, and three days after high school I enlisted, and from there, the rest is kind of history. I've gone to college, I've gone to law school, I've gone to business school, and uh I found this nexus in uh business law and criminal law, and I just found myself super engaged in litigation, and I worked in big law for a business, I'm an associate, but I knew I really wasn't gonna get any opportunity to be in court. So I was like, I want to be in court and I want reps and I want high-stakes situations because I want to have a life experience that not even I can question, that no one can question. That like, you say this, and like it's unequivocal who this person is. So I applied to every single VA's office while I was in business school. I was working full-time during the day, going to school at night. I had passed the bar first time, no tutors, none of that. Became president of my trial team before. Like it was like my whole life it kind of flipped upside down because I had something to prove. I saw hope. I saw a chance to prove myself, but more importantly, the people that believed in me, right? And so I didn't want to let them down. And I wasn't just like doing this on my own, I was standing on their shoulders and they were carrying, and even like getting the children watching them like thinking about it now. But like when you have people that believe in you, it's so easy to do the thing, and so it's about what you do, what you experience, and so I leveraged all that support to go and deliver on everything we believe that I can do. I got a call back from the DA's office. I passed the first interview. It's funny because the woman who interviewed me, uh, her daughter was going to serve in the IDF. And so I looked up at this guy, I was like, thank you, God. I looked up and said, Thank you. I sit down, she interviews me, she asks me a question, like a hypo. Uh, you know, I I was in business school, so it was kind of far removed from the bar. You know how it is. You kind of blind all that information out of your head after. So I've been like a few months in business school at that point, and I like stuck with whatever answer I gave to the hypo. And long story long, she's like, you need to brush up on your criminal, I'm gonna pass you on in the next round. I was like, okay. I spent, I literally channeled every person I knew that had interviewed for a prosecutor's position. I was in Reddit threads, I I had done everything that I could channel my home network. I wanted every single hypothetical that they could offer that by the time I got to the interview, there wasn't a single hypothetical that they asked me that I couldn't answer. So, like, whatever panelists they were saying, I've never been so calm either because when you prepared your calm, like you've done the work, right? You let the work talk. And so from there, interview the DA, and the BA waits like two weeks to call me. And you hear all these stories about like people get the job in the room, people here the same day. Like, I'm waiting for two weeks. I passed the bar, like I've got a JD MBA. Like, what do they want? Like, I don't understand. Why haven't I hurt you? I'm in the gym when I get the call, I get a job. I'm jumping up on one of my friends I've been working out with, and you know, from there, you know, the rest is kind of pursuit.

SPEAKER_03

What did you think you'd taken from your IDF experience and you brought into college and then law school and business school and now your career?

SPEAKER_00

It's funny because DA asked me the same question. And for those two weeks, I thought about whether I gave the right answer.

SPEAKER_03

Okay. What answer did you give? What answer would you give now? Is it the same answer?

SPEAKER_00

It's the same exact answer. Adaptability. Because the ability to sleep in the desert for days on a gun magazine or a backpack when you're when you got like the wind like blowing over your sweat and you're freezing, or you wake up with like a scorpion in your uniform, or you're eating out of canon tuna, or you're learning how to shoot a weapon in another language, or you're running towards a mountaintop in the middle of the night with dogs chasing after you, like there is a whole other level of you must do what is required and be prepared for anything at all points. And so if I have to give the canoe, I can do it at any point. If I have to manage a crisis, I can do it at any point. If I have to, and that's why self regulation has become so important, because I have learned that part of being adaptable is how to stay calm under pressure, and part of being calm means having the competence around the around the topic or or content that you want to address and or or have the expertise in. And so I spend my time developing competence that helps me stay ready and helps me stay adaptable. And so for the most part I've learned that there's only so many levers that you can pull in any particular situation. And so if you understand those levers it's easy to understand which one needs a bit more pressure than the other. But usually I mean there's this great sentiment uh you know let the first word be your breath and so breath work is a real thing in wellness in performance in anything understanding that the breath is the physiological level of the body it can heal you but it can also help you and it can regulate you. And so understanding this you can't necessarily breathe your way to success but you can calm yourself down. And so that has been extremely important in how I've taken those lessons from the IDF in terms of you know wake up, shine your shoes, brush your teeth, shave, clean your gun, be ready to get attention. Understanding the value of time is extremely important. I remember that I used to say like there's a great meme on it if someone makes fun within my life is like you know every single day is like three days morning afternoon and night I don't know if you've ever seen it. And so I used to think about that every single day was an idea of like the morning was one day the afternoon was another and the evening was another because he never slept. So every single day and the life experience that you're accumulating within that and on top of it with the stakes that are extremely high again in a foreign country in another language in the desert and like I served in 2008 and like we didn't even have bunkers. We just had tents like I remember after uh after our advanced training like the graduation portion it was so hot outside we hadn't slept for three days we tried rolling up the sides of the tent it was too hot. We tried keeping the tent down it was too hot we tried running to the shower to put cold water on towels we would put them on our bodies and towels would dry up in literally second so like we just couldn't receive the product for days and you just learn how to perform and deliver in moments that count. And so the IDF is taught me to stay adaptable and it stays with me every single way.

SPEAKER_03

When did you start bringing the intentional performance into your practice as a lawyer and then bringing it into you know keynotes and presentations and and having this you know but becoming someone who's really an expert in areas around performance and of course also you know I'm sure so much of that has come from your podcast Inside the Inspired where you talk to incredible high performers but when did that become such a a key part of your life?

SPEAKER_00

I think a big part of who we are as people is about connecting the dots in the different aspects of our life I'm very big on inputs. And so the books that we read the news that we listen to the feeds that you know can be that we may have a reactive reaction to the content we consume the podcast we listen to the people we hang out with everything shape us. And so I remember talking to Anthony Pampolano about this one of the first 30 employees at Facebook career millions of followers you know he's on CNBC all the time and he talks about opportunity like a Rubik's Cube slash lockbox. And you have to be able to have that lived experience to be able to stop the opportunity on the ground. And so I'm big on connecting dots and so intent as you define it in the law as a conscious objective. Being intentional when it comes to personal and professional development is knowing what you want and having a plan to get there. So for me that was understanding the definition of words and bridging the gap the nexus of it if you will and harmonizing it. To me it started to make sense in a way that's like if I can have a conscious objective if I which I learned from looking at the penal code of how to define it and all the different types of intent dullingly negligently and otherwise it started to help shape my worldview in a way it's like if I could know what I want and again like vision is also super key in personal and professional development like any specificity is key. So you have to be intentional about the specific thing that you have a vision for and so again that conscious objective to have the back of my mind to get the thing that I want and being specific about it and then again the execution of it taking action on these things are the foundational elements that I have bridged and and and helped create a platform to build everything else that I want on top of it. So bridging that gap has largely been about connecting the dots in my life and looking for the patterns within it. So the performance optimization I mean if you read enough personal development books you kind of see what they're all seeing. And so at some point you realize like do I have an opinion on this thing? Like there's a difference in every creator's journey around like reporting and then like synthesizing and processing and then opinion on and becoming an authority and a thought leader. And so like I just found that in the beginning of the first like 50ish episodes of the pod and you know starting with the intense physical training you know from the first marathon to the 10th to you know the first book to the 100th there was all of these patterns that I had spotted that to me was like this guy's the same what that guy's saying who are they both sucking or that guy or that guy say well I kind of disagree with what he says. What do I think about it? And then you go from just saying what someone else said to this is what I think about the thing. And so again connecting the dots to link experiences and inputs and then synthesizing and processing information and reasoning around the information is helped me again find this harmony among all the different aspects and layers that make up who I am to then deliver an opinion based on talking to this person, reading this thing, listening to that thing, running that hard you know waking up this early staying up this late eating at food this is what works this is what gets me this outcome having enough awareness around like these inputs these outputs because I've learned not to optimize for like things but for outcomes and so when I do things I really try to be intentional about what I am getting as an outcome. So like I get asked to go on podcasts I'm not going to go on every podcast right let me show you the scene you know there's a thousand books that I want to read but maybe it's better to reread one that I've already read because I can reinforce my learning within that specific scope. So it's a lot of saying no it's a lot of having curiosity it's a lot of having a part of saying no is that discipline of not like oh I can wake up early but I can make the hard choice and that's really what it's revolved around to that's helped me build that intention to everything that I do what are your go-to performance tips just for yourself everyone's different great I think of being I think you and I could talk about our performance tips all day long but so like what are my inputs for performance tips? Yeah I think a lot of it is kind of redundant at this point right like and it's a lot of it gets trendy right and a lot of it is seasonal so when you take in enough inputs you realize like where it's important to stop there's a great saying you know if you have too many voices in your head you can't hear them. So if you're taking too many opinions of other people of too many influencers and you know personal development specialists and this doctor and my brother you get it. So at some point like you kind of gotta just do what works for you. And so I'm kind of at the point where like I don't necessarily look for performance tips. I'm big on recovery. I think the principles are very much the same across the at least at this stage I can answer where I haven't gone at this stage I'm not necessarily looking for more performance tips because I see um you know active recall is a is very important. Like you learn something but are you leaving it into conversation ever? No one really talks about that too much. You know and that for me has been extremely valuable because if I learn something in the morning like I'm very big on not looking at my phone first thing in the morning and then reading a book instead and that will do more than any pet dye. That will do more than any like cold plunge. And I don't do pet dives but I do cold plunge you know and some people say cold plunging isn't good after a workout because it's done muscle growth based on this study that came out because Huberman said it and blah blah blah and everyone else I was padding it and it's like look well I cold plunge after I left all the time because that's the only time that I have to cold plunge because I got two kids and I throw on the way and like that's it. And I like to think I got plenty of muscle. So like it really is a matter of what's gonna work for you you know and like and I say all that very humbly. So I think like performance tips in general what channels do I think are I think you know Chris Williamson's great Patrick David's great I guess it's more information on what people but like you know for you you're you you speak publicly all the time.

SPEAKER_03

What and whether you know you're getting ready for a meeting or you're doing your podcast with other really incredible high performers or you're speaking in front of an audience of lawyers and you're teaching them how to show up better. So how do you get yourself for someone who's looking for like hey I have no system for getting myself ready to feel calm the concept of breath work is new for a lot of people so whether it's things that you you know are in your routine now or if you're doing one of your presentations you know what are your favorite things to tell people around how to gear yourself up for that performance success and it's it's gonna be different for everyone but so in terms of like performance optimity like get ready to do the thing I mean you gotta be prepared I always find that the best like one I think it is in like the second podcast I ever recorded the biggest takeaway and it stays to me all the time like do you know what you're talking about and that for me has been like the easiest like I'm not parroting things.

SPEAKER_00

Like I think these things and I can say why I think these things and I can cite my sources. So a big part of any type of performance delivery is do you know what you're talking about? And can you stay grounded in that? Can you substantiate every single point you're going to make another part of it is you're not there for you. You're there for the audience you're there to serve and so if you come at it from a place of service you come at it from a place of if I can help one person here that is going to make a massive difference in how you go about delivering because you're not thinking about you know is my voice shaking is my you know is there something on my face is there this that or the other you're you're thinking about who you can help and that is essential. The breath work is intentionally is great for being present it helps you focus on what's in front of you and so if you're thinking about what was or what could be you can't focus on what is and so these main these three main things and a lot of it is doing less right it's not trying to overdeliver it's not trying to you know make every single point in your deck it's not trying to like save everybody all at once they're gonna remember how you made them feel and they're gonna remember maybe one thing. So like you're gonna present all this content over the course of one or two or three hours and if you focus on giving and you focus on serving then the rest comes as a byproduct. So for me the performance optimization component at this stage is how many repetitions can I get at doing a thing? Can I focus on giving and delivering and serving really trying to help somebody without being preaching but also ground all of my findings in hard evidence and data that helps substantiate whatever claim I am making and also be prepared for those counterpoints within the topics that I know what I'm talking about all of this things ready you have to go no I'm okay so I'm just saying bye uh and okay so you mentioned recovery we don't tend to think about recovery in certainly in law but I think overall just in in our professions and you know you're an athlete so perhaps part of your maybe a lot of the why the the reason behind you thinking about recovery is because you're an athlete and then you can apply that to your work.

SPEAKER_03

But how how do you think about rest and recovery and how critical that is to put everything down and walk away so that you can actually perform because part you know I think about you know when someone asks about uh you know a morning routine how to be successful in a day I'm like well it actually starts at night I think recovery is a thing that gets lost on people because they think it's passive recovery is something active and so we think that when we are sleeping we are not actively recovering but think about how hard it is to like go to sleep.

SPEAKER_00

Like you can be in bed be on your phone maybe toss and turn like there's effort that has to go into it you gotta prep yourself right you gotta prep the night before you gotta calm yourself down. Recovery is an active thing that we have to do. So I am for better or worse the line I've been like redlining my body for the last six seven years maybe a little bit more and I didn't take recovery too seriously over the last few years. And I'm definitely paying the price for some of it now in the form of a sports hernia some label tatters like hip and pin like all this stuff or so like there's probably some surgery in my future and there was a point where I may have been more stressed about it probably a year ago but at this stage in my career I'm very grateful for it because I know that with all the ambitious goals that I have coming up it will give me the time to recover so I can get my body to a place where I can perform. And so when I say recovery is active something I talk about in my seminars is the stress management ecosystem which is this idea of all these different tools that you can leverage to help actively recover. And so similar to how an athlete will recover in an ice bath or a sauna after a hard workout you can have a conversation it's very similar in the sense that mentally you can actively recover by having a conversation with someone that you love and really taking solace within that conversation. You can read a book about a topic that you really enjoy and take solace in that moment where you're consuming information on a topic that you love and someone can't pay you a billion dollars to stop running that you can go outside get vitamin D go for a walk get circulation going take solace and presence in that moment of hey I'm outside in the middle of the day and I can be here and I'm safe like understanding these different tools that you can leverage finding gratitude in journaling being intentional about the things that you're grateful for setting intention for the day here's not not here's my to-do list but more so today's gonna be a good day and here's how I'm going to make it a good day even if there's things you're afraid to do I get nervous before two months I get scared before big moments but like I also see them as opportunities to perform and so active recovery is about cognitively reframing the obstacle in front of you based on you realizing like this is a stepping stone towards opportunity. I failed no I got feedback right as cliche as that may sound so a lot of recovery is about actively understanding and cognitively reframing challenges in a way that you can get them work for you. And also the surrounding yourself like we were talking about at the top with community and like minded people again not in an echo chamber but in a place where you can feel like there's people that can amplify your thoughts and that can amplify the things that you geek out on. So when we look at recovery as a whole it can be again a massage a pole plunge a sauna a theragon whatever but it can also be instead of doom scrolling on your phone and watching Netflix and like there's a time and a place for that your body's being saturated with dopamine it's not actively recovering it needs rest it needs conversation it needs presence it needs time to digest the foods and the stress of the day like the commuting the the things that you've been through that you don't realize that you've been through because the thing is like I do a very intense physical workout that most people would probably say that's crazy. But to me it's not that crazy. And that doesn't mean just because I don't think it's crazy that it's not taking the stress on my body. You know what I mean? And so I have to be mindful especially now that just because it doesn't feel crazy to me doesn't mean there isn't an added stress and a compounding stress on the joints on the muscles on the efforts that if I'm not making the conscious effort to actively recover, that my body's gonna feel it not today or tomorrow or a week but two years from now just like I'm paying the price for all the running and marathons and the ultra marathons and all that stuff you know so being mindful is extremely important as part of recovery as well. And so I always talk about this idea of you know most of us look for one-dimensional solutions to a multidimensional problem. And well-being as a whole as we know it is a multiplayer social physical occupational spiritual the rest of the relating right intellectual and so if we overindex on anyone in my case physical for some people it may be occupational right for lawyers especially if they overindex on that aspect of their identity then they're gonna pay the price for it one way or another they'll burn out they'll be they'll get sick or they'll be bored because they're not challenged enough or they'll get hurt you know so these are these are things that we have to be mindful of when it comes to how we go about actively recovering. And now I know these things so I'm obviously more intentional about these things over the last couple of years but you know it comes with time but what I would say is recovery is something active that we have to do. And so if you think doing scrolling is rest it's actually doing more harm than than you may realize just because you don't feel it today that's actually the the quiet energy that could be disturbing you the most how do you manage your social media life well I got off Instagram about a year ago I got off X. Like here and there like I'll I'll you know log back in but I really try not to make it impulsive and it's not a self-righteous thing. It's like LinkedIn I don't really consider social media but there's definitely social media element to it but I find that if I schedule posts out and I'm responsive to the people that I care enough to comment and also you know make sure I'm reaching out to the people that I care about want to connect with like yourself obviously I try to be very intentional about the types of people that I want to connect with like for me I used to spend probably seven to eight hours on Instagram alone even if I'm quote unquote learning. I've had to learn how to be okay being disconnected and that definitely there was a warning curve with that like you don't learn the breaking news and you know you don't see a viral tweet and you don't see a viral this that and the other and that can be very you know what's everyone talking about but I get over it. I also don't drink alcohol either you know so now the Instagram like versus it's not that much different and it's been a few years with no alcohol. So like it for me it's just less is more and I Believe that we have a finite amount of bandwidth, just like in tech, right? You got a computer, you got a phone, then you got all those videos on your phone, it operates a little bit slower. When you delete them, it operates a lot faster, right? All those unnecessary apps. So if I dedicate less bandwidth to these things, right? Like seven hours a week on social media. I think I said a day before, it was a week or whatever it was. Like I think it was two hours a day was my time. 14 hours a week. Like that's a lot of time I got back, you know, reading, consuming, refining my craft, training, covering, most importantly, time of filming, or presence in my life. So I guess to be frank, I don't really have a relationship with social media, and I think my time is down to less than 10 minutes over the course of a month when I log in. So that's definitely a metric I'm pretty proud of right now.

SPEAKER_03

Well, I feel even more honored when I see that you've commented on a post of mine.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_03

So I I also don't drink alcohol. I don't remember if we've talked about that. What led you to stop? And what have you noticed is different about how you feel and how you show up now? Aside from, of course, you know, just the presence and the time with family. What else?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, waking up is hard enough. I'm sure you mean that, right? Like so, like that, just I was like, you know, what am I doing here? And uh I've just I just found like if I wanted certain goals, and again, who you hang out with is a big part of it. So like I just hung out with more athletes. I hung out with more people that were physically ambitious, you know, or socially comfortable not drinking, or saying, like, hey, I'll have a Heineken Zero, and now I drink athletically religiously, and it's so much fun, you know. Like, this isn't gonna be anything about 10, 16, 20 grams of carb, like whatever, you know. But it for me, I just found that I didn't need it, and the more secure I became in myself, the less drawn I was. I used to love a great black label, I used to love a great tequila, I used to love a great blue label, I used to love a great McCallum 12. And I'm sure one day I'll get back to it at some point, like I'll have another drink, you know, when I'm older and be like, yeah, you know, this is the good stuff. But like, I just found there's no enjoyment in it. It doesn't help my performance, it doesn't help my recovery, alcohol. There's nothing positive about it other than the social element that I like to believe I can still get without it. And I really try not to sound self-righteous about this. I don't even talk about it that much. And if anyone asks me about it, I'm like, no, I'm good right now. You know, I don't drink. Like, because that draws a whole other conversation, you know. So I think it's also becoming more of a thing. Like I was in the sauna a couple weeks. I joined this, I canceled it today because I'm getting my own cold plant, but I joined this gym uh on my house that's got like a sauna and a cold punch. And in the sauna was like a bunch of high schoolers, and I was like, what the hell are they doing here? Like they're talking about prom and all this stuff. But it's like 10, 12 high schoolers, and I'm like, it's 7 o'clock on a Wednesday. Go the hell home. Go anywhere else. Like you stop talking about prom. Like I can't hear the tranquility. But then I started thinking like the conversation is shifting to Gen Z quicker, and that's a very healthy thing. Just could they do it at all hours? But anyway, like it's one of those things that uh I think alcohol always, I mean it'll always be there, but at the same time, like, you know, it just it wasn't for me. I don't need it. Why'd you stop?

SPEAKER_03

I never really drank. I I don't know if I would have been wired to drink more if I didn't have the health history that I had. I drank a couple of times. I mean, when I was younger, I I was I was a goody two shoes type for most of my life. So, you know, it wasn't even on my radar, I think, in in high school. I had I had no idea what was going on in high school. If you asked me what was going on parties, I probably would have said, Well parties, weren't there parties? And then college, I I drank a couple of times, but I got I got so sick and I didn't know at the time everything that was going on in my health. And so I think there was one time in particular where I articulated to my friends what I was experiencing, and I was just like, This is like wow, I get I'm getting so you know affected by this. Like, this is drunk. I get drunk from like one tiny little sip, and I feel like I'm dying. And there, I don't even remember what my description was, but they were like, I don't that's not normal. And then later on, um, you know, I think I I drank a couple of times in law school, which is when I got more answers about my health. And and I ended up learning that I was what I was experiencing when I had just the smallest amount of alcohol wasn't what other people experienced. It was an anaphylactic reaction. I was having life-threatening reactions to alcohol, um, which I I did not uh understand. Um I certainly didn't enjoy it. And you know, once you start to realize that it's actually more than just what everyone else has experienced, which I still don't understand, sort of the you know, choosing to to feel like crap. Um it for me, I just was like, well, this is this is dangerous and it's making me so, so unwell. Um, so I never really was a drinker, anyways. You know, probably just I don't know if I drank more than a dozen things ever. Um not half a dozen. But uh but I was uncomfortable with it. You know, I was I think it helped me uh to have a health reason when I was um in contexts where everyone around me couldn't fathom a world in which they wouldn't be drinking. And I remember, you know, a couple of circumstances that stand out in law school in particular, where people were just like baffled by it and and said some things that were just now in hindsight, I'm like, that's bizarre and also very concerning about you. Yeah. Um, but at the time it just it shook me, and so um not in a way that would have changed my own behavior, just I felt like a weirdo. Yeah, I was the only person that I knew, you know, at the time. I I think you know, every everyone around me was drinking, and so I just felt like the odd ball and this would have been jealous.

SPEAKER_00

I would have been like, damn, how is it secure?

SPEAKER_03

I I was so insecure, but too insecure to even admit it. Um and so it's not, you know, it's not that I never so I it wasn't a I stopped drinking, but I there was this transition where I became comfortable with not drinking. Um and even more so, actually, once I became healthy, which started in the last three or so years, I think we've talked a little bit about neuroperformance training, which changed my life from being really, really challenged with my health to now feeling healthier than I ever thought would be possible for someone born into a body like mine. And since I became healthier and stopped having all these life-threatening reactions, I've I've tried like a a couple of tiny sips of alcohol to just to be like, so what are people talking about? And I don't care for it. And I I just I I like water. I like water, I like tea, I like you know, a nice cream juice. And and I've had to actually train myself, I'm probably somewhat still in this training phase of learning to just say, I don't drink, as opposed to I don't drink because blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Please don't think I'm weird, it's because it could kill me.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, no, definitely can't invite it. I still find, but it's in this in this world that we're living in, and I've and the pendulum always swings, right? Like, I feel like we're very far extreme in the social media, but you know, now it's kind of in high school, college, like our generation, and then like the one or two after, like two or three. I don't know, whatever. Like, and now until now, like when I know it's the Gen Z. I just feel like there's this massive shift, and it's a great one. You know, I wish it started earlier. Um and you know, it's it's one of those things that I definitely am glad I experimented with, like, so I know what it is, but I don't think about it anymore. And a big part of what got me to stop was having the ambitions physically that I because I used to think that you couldn't perform or look a certain way without it, or with it, and you know, it just wasn't something that meant enough to me at the time. So as I shifted, I was like, I actually feel way better, and that pleasure, I guess, of feeling better way more than the pain, you know, and like having life without hangovers is so much better. I don't even think I've said the word hangover.

SPEAKER_03

No, as you said that I was like, that's the word I was looking for, hangover. That's how little but I I think you're right. I think we are trending toward less drinking in general, and I hope it's you know uh maybe a year or so ago, I I posted on LinkedIn about uh having had to me a really bizarre experience when we were in Greece, where the hotel owner just like could not accept that I didn't drink and wouldn't drink, and he was trying to force it on me, and I was just it was it was a disgusting kind of experience, and I was pissed off about it. It was bothering me because it was like day after day after day, and I posted about it, um, and I got such an enormous positive response of first part of it was just like, you know, no one should care so much about whether you're drinking or not, but it was more people saying, I don't drink, and some version of here's my story, um, and others just you know, whether it was in the comments or DMs, people don't want to feel like weirdos, and especially in law, there's so much drinking, and so much of the response that I got was you know appreciation for finding someone else that doesn't drink. And I again I feel like we keep coming back to this idea, there's actually more of us who are aligned than most people realize. It's just that we're not shouting it out, and and you know, I've had guests on the podcast who have their own, you know, stories with alcohol, and some of that is you know, people who either define themselves, identify themselves as alcoholics or recovering alcoholics, or who have changed their relationship with alcohol, they don't use that term for themselves, but they recognize that it was really bad for them and now they don't drink, and you know, and now also and there's a lot of lawyers who have struggled with it tremendously and maybe want to stop or don't want to do it, but don't want to feel odd at networking events. And you know, we I I certainly I've gotten here without drinking. You can do it, you're not drinking, it's going great.

SPEAKER_00

I think I mean you're right, it's one of those things that like they have I don't want to say hide behind, but they don't know how to relate or bond if the first thing is hey, what are you drinking? You know, I'm actually gonna you know just get a club soda or I'll get a you know, I really do want the non-alcoholic beer, but that's an historical conversation, so I'll just get the club soda because uh I gotta drive. You know, I mean I'm it's not it's not really intended to be like a conflict thing, but it's been a few years since I've had like I'll still do a glass of wine on Shabbat, but like, or I'll do the blessing, and I haven't finished the glass of maybe one glass I finished in the last year, you know. But like I haven't had hard liquor in years, I haven't had beer. I lost a bet last year. I'm never betting my alcohol again because I was super confident. Bear the Mavericks versus the Celtics in the finals like two years ago. I bet uh one of my colleagues that the Mavericks are gonna win, so I own a beer and I gave it back six months later, so I had that one. Um so that was my only beer in like the last but I remember I was like, I've I'll never like I'll never do this again. You know? So and and like look, nothing happened, and again, it's not a self-righteous thing. It's just one of those things that's like, look, I got goals, I want to perform at a certain level, mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually. I like to be in control of the controllables, my decision making. Like, I just find I'm at a whole other level without any distraction and substance to you know guide my decision making one way or the other. Because it's the people don't think about first, second, third order consequence. They don't think about ripple effects. And so like it's not just the drinking, it's the next morning. And it's not even just the next morning, it's like all of the other chips and snacks and foods that we're gonna eat and all the stress that it puts on our body, and you know, like it's just the body doesn't want to digest it, you know? Like it literally is what did you just do, you know? So like and I feel that. And then you feel it for a couple days after, too, especially the older you get, you know, at least the most reported, you know. So it's for me, like just a non-negotiable at this stage. Like, like I said, I'm sure I'll have the black whiskey or tequila at some point in the future, but I've been to the south of France in the last year, and I haven't had more than a sip of wine, and I have been to Italy in the last couple of years, you know, Lake Como, and didn't have a sip of nothing. I didn't get to taste the fine orgas of Italy, and you know, I'll eat anything almost. It's you know, not seafood or pork, but like it's you know, that's that's just where I'm at, and I just find that's what works for me. And like, you know, I gotta live with my body, you know, and my mind. This is where I gotta be the most comfortable looking in my head, physically in my body, and when I'm comfortable in my body, I'm a very tough person to stop, you know. So that's really what I try to live.

SPEAKER_03

Ooh, I like that. When you're comfortable in your body, you're a tough person to stop. Okay. Well, we could go on like about a zillion more topics, um, and maybe we'll do that another time. But I think you just nailed uh sort of that that's gonna maybe that that'll be your episode title. Is there anything else that you want to share? Either, you know, about your journey from being the kid who couldn't learn to now the guy who teaches others to perform at their highest level while practicing law himself.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I'll say thank you so much uh for the opportunity to have this conversation and talk about these topics from you know Israel to high performance. I think you know the one thing I would share is rate with you and subscribe to the wellness esquire because every single one goes a very long way. I really love the mission. Um, I really love this conversation, and I can't wait for the next one.

SPEAKER_03

Thank you so much. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed. Please be sure to check out the links in the show notes and to rate and subscribe the podcast. I hope you have a wonderful day, and please remember to be kind to yourself.

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Ariella Cohen Coleman

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