Selling Signals - the Data Monetisation Podcast
Selling Signals is the podcast for anyone building, selling, or buying data, with a focus on commercialising data in the investor ecosystem.
Each episode brings together industry insiders to share real, first-hand experience from the front lines of data sales. We unpack what actually works when turning raw data into revenue, whilst exploring other data buying silos to break down the walls between them.
Selling Signals delivers practical lessons to help data teams sell better and build stronger, more commercial data businesses.
Selling Signals - the Data Monetisation Podcast
Kai Searle: Hiring Elite Data Sellers
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In this episode of Selling Signals, we’re joined by Kai Searle, Senior Consultant at Engage PSG. Kai helps data, research and AI businesses build go-to-market teams across the US, UK and EMEA.
We discuss why hiring for data companies differs from hiring for SaaS. Kai explains what separates elite data sellers from average ones, and how candidates can assess whether an opportunity is as strong as the hiring team says it is.
This episode is for founders building commercial teams and for candidates navigating the data sales market.
Welcome to Selling Signals, the podcast focused on how businesses actually monetize and sell data. Each episode, we interview an industry insider to hear their experiences and lessons learned.
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SPEAKER_00Today's guest is Kai Sell, a specialist recruiter helping alternative data, AI, and information businesses build and scale high-performing go-to-market teams. Through his work at Engage, Kai works closely with founders, sales leaders, and candidates, giving him a unique perspective on what separates elite dead sellers from the rest, how successful go-to-market teams are built, and the hiring mistakes that can slow growth. Today we'll get into all that and more. Welcome to the podcast, Kai.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, thanks for having me, guys.
SPEAKER_01Great to be here. Welcome.
SPEAKER_00It's another in-person episode, which is always fun.
SPEAKER_01Indeed, yeah, always fun. Absolutely. Happy to be here. Happy to be here.
SPEAKER_00So London, London-based uh long travel to North London.
SPEAKER_02Not too bad, not too bad. So kind of, yeah, work, work around Holburn. So uh yeah, quick uh stop on the tube and uh and and here we are. Is that where the engage offices are? Um so we're we're in a bit of an interesting situation. So we're um in between we works at the moment, so we've got like a flexible kind of we work arrangement. Um sometimes Soho, sometimes Holburn. Um Soho for the height of the summer to uh enjoy some of the uh activities over there after hours. But um but yeah, so yeah, yeah, Holburn or so uh Soho mostly.
SPEAKER_00The pub scene in London is strong for sure.
SPEAKER_02It is, for sure, for sure.
SPEAKER_00Why don't we start there then? So engage, what do they do and what's your role?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. So we're a um both headhunting firm. We specialize in all things go to market go to market recruitment um and executive search. Um, specialise across a few key niches across data, reg tech, and fintech. Um, I specifically head up and look after our data research and AI intelligence desk here at Engage. Um, partnered with alternative data vendors, investment research firms, primary research businesses, experts, um, and some of those more kind of AI-enabled players on all things go-to-market recruitment, right? From full team build-outs to um, you know, senior uh senior searches and um team leadership searches as well.
SPEAKER_01And I mean from an alternative data perspective, then are you very focused? You mentioned yeah, alt data, AI, AI research. Is that predominantly people selling into investment funds or do they tend to have a kind of a broad range of clients?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, for sure. So predominantly the investor use case, yeah. Um, but also kind of more broadly, like broader financial services, um, you know, banks, asset managers, PE firms, VC firms, um, and then also the kind of professional services use case, so the you know, consultancies, the big four, those kind of instances as well.
SPEAKER_00So if we think about uh uh hiring for these companies that you're supporting, um we talk a lot on this podcast about the differences between data as a service and software as a service. From your perspective, is there any difference between building go-to-market teams?
SPEAKER_02It's a great question. Um, I think there's one or a couple fundamental differences. Um the main one is the amount of information that is available to the salesperson during the process, um, particularly with the investor use case. Um less so with maybe kind of professional services or those kind of broader segments, but particularly with investors, um, you know, you guys will know way better than I do, right? Like um with a fundamental investor, you might gain some insight into areas that they're investing in, areas that they're interested in that you can look to leverage during the sales process. Um, but for the quants, for the systematics, like you can forget it, right? Like it's their secret source, they're protecting it, they're not giving um any information away. Um, and so you're kind of almost going into that process, not blind, but like a little bit um, well, yeah, a little bit blind, right? If you compare to a SaaS salesperson, where you know they are able to better understand and diagnose the problems that that end buyer is facing, um, and are then able to utilize those throughout the entirety of the of the sales process. Um and so I would say that's the kind of fundamental difference is the level of information that's available to the salesperson, um, but also the actual sales cycle itself, um, in the sense that there's this whole validation process in the middle of the sales cycle, yeah, where you know, for three months, for six months, you know, whatever that kind of period of time is, um, you know, the hedge fund is just a way testing that is a way testing that um data, you know, validating it, does it have signal, does it have alpha? Whereas that's just not the case in SaaS, right? Like you build champions, you um, you know, do the demos, you show the value, and they buy, right? Like, can you imagine if a you know a kind of um HR leader um you know said to a SaaS salesperson, yeah, just give us this ATS system, we'll just test it for three to six months, and then you know, we we might buy, we might not, right? So it's a it's a fundamental difference, I would say, in the level of information provided throughout the sales process, but also the actual sales cycle itself.
SPEAKER_00The first episode we did with Michael, he talked about the fact that there doesn't seem to be enough young people coming to our industry and that it's difficult with, as you say, the the sort of nicheness of our industry if you think about alternative data explicitly, um, the that there is a big learning curve for people coming into the industry. Do you see that when you're sort of hiring for go-to-market roles? Are are these people typically much more senior salespeople, or are they you know, i are you seeing something completely different?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, great question. I think it depends on the level of the hire being made, right? Like typically you're gonna see, you know, these more experienced folks um being required, right? Because um, you know, particularly on the kind of early stage, zero to one side, um, you know, they need someone who's been there, done it before, has the book of business, has the relationships that they can leverage from day one. Um but also I guess when that organization is looking to scale a little bit more aggressively, start to kind of segment different disciplines within the commercial organization, um, you know, BDRs, SDRs, I think that's a great route of entry for that younger talent talent um market that you mentioned. Um I think the easiest route into this space is typically educational backgrounds that support this space, right? So some form of financial services or economics or kind of business management background. Um, you know, maybe an internship at a bank, maybe an internship at a hedge fund or at a consulting firm. Um but yeah, I guess to answer your question, um, you know, a lot of the mandates that we typically see are for those, you know, senior level hires, those who have, you know, done and run full sale cycle um, you know, cadences before in the space, have the network, have the black book of business, so to speak, um, that can come in and kind of help them, you know, launch that segment or launch that vertical.
SPEAKER_01To come back then to hiring a new talent, you raised a really good point earlier about um the distinction between, say, a fundamental and a quant shop. You talked about, you know, on a quant side, sometimes you're going in blind. I mean, sometimes literally on a sales call, the the everyone's video will be turned off, everybody will be muted. I've been there, you're just like talking into a void. Um does that mean that you look for you have to look for specific types of personalities when hiring in? Because obviously the kind of traditional SaaS BDR person, maybe you maybe wouldn't say they're particular they're they're always gregarious, but they're certainly very personable people. But at least in my experience, sometimes when talking to people who are like and and you really sometimes are talking to the users of the data who are incredibly technical and going to be asking incredibly technical questions quite quickly, and they're not going to want to talk about the weather or their weekend. They don't want to get into the detail and the data. How do you go about yeah, what what sort of personality trades and type types of people do you think do do well, particularly as new entrants, but also certainly from the zero to one side as well, it'd be interesting from both ends.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, for sure, for sure. So I think on the the kind of newer entry side, like a lot of times these guys are setting up meetings for the kind of more experienced folks, right? So um, you know, maybe there's a cold call avenue, right? And and they grab and and they literally do, to your point, just have a few sometimes seconds to you know capture this person's attention to um you know explain to that person why they matter and why they should care about what their company does or what their company offers. Um and I think again, like in sales, you need to be resilient in all segments. But I think for this segment particular, like you you just need to be like an I've had like an iron um, you know, kind of will and um you know, kind of determination to succeed. Because to your point, you know, you're jumping on these calls and there is someone just with no photo on the screen, it's just a kind of black screen that you're kind of staring at. Um and so um yeah, you know, you that that that resilience is is is is essential. Um, I think in terms of the kind of more experienced folks, that's a slightly different profile in the sense that they're able to have those more technical conversations, right? Whereas so whereas the junior guys and girls might be setting up an appointment, setting up a meeting. Um, you know, they only really need to kind of capture that person's attention for a short frame of time and then obviously convert it into a meeting. Um, and then um, you know, that that kind of more experienced salesperson is then able to answer some of those more kind of technical questions, having you know run a hundred or thousand of these um, you know, kind of conversations before.
SPEAKER_01That makes total sense. So I just want to uh highlight one one final thing you mentioned because um you mentioned cold calling. Out of I mean, feel free to kind of bat this one away, but do you like do you think cold calling still works in like works in this industry? Because I mean I can actually tell uh this was what three or four years ago. I think I uh this is when we were selling software into investment funds. I think I ran something rang something like 250 numbers. I think one person picked up basically the after about five seconds, all they said was an expletive and put the phone down. So my experience from that was no, it doesn't work, but I mean yeah, it'd be fascinating to know you've heard that it does. I find personally find emailing is is is more has higher potential.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think it's I think it it definitely works. Um I think it's still very tough to to your point, right? Like I think you have to be very good again at being able to kind of capture that person's attention and and tell them why they should spend you know a minute or you know 30 seconds um you know on a on a phone call with you. Um I think it's certainly a channel that a lot of our customers utilize. Um, but again, like that's alongside a multi-channel approach over email, um, Bloomberg terminals as well. Um, I've heard LinkedIn a little bit more frequently recently. Yeah, LinkedIn iPhone works really quite well.
SPEAKER_01Like sending an email and then sending like a connection request to follow up tends to be quite a like a good way of um getting people's attention.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. But but more and more um frequently, in particular, the kind of Bloomberg terminals as well. Of course, that's a you know a massive investment for a firm to be making. Yeah, it's not it's not cheap. Um, but you know, we we've we've seen, well, I say we've seen uh our customers have seen huge amounts of success offer that channel in particular. Makes total sense. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Sounds like James needed a better data provider for his numbers.
SPEAKER_01Perhaps. Perhaps I did. Alas.
SPEAKER_00Given uh given everything you guys are discussing around sort of the complexities of selling into this world, have you placed many people that have come from outside in let's call them more senior roles that have come from traditional SaaS sales organizations where they clearly have a really good uh understanding of how to sell something, yeah, but are missing that sort of uh industry expertise that's probably less valuable in a SaaS role?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, great question. Um, not so much is is is the honest answer, right? Um have definitely seen people transition well in some instances from that kind of more traditional SaaS background. Um again, the reasons for that, you know, they have great structure, they have great process, they have great training, um, you know, no follow-up kind of falls um, you know, from from their fingers. Um but they don't have that, to your point, that kind of domain experience. And as you were just saying, James, like the that customer base is one of the most complex technical buyers in the world. Um, and I think, at least from the you know, companies that we've helped, um, that experience in you know really understanding how that entity consumes information um and generates signal is often the most important and the most valuable um when it comes to kind of making those those senior hires. Again, though, like we have seen instances and I have seen instances in the kind of wider market where you know they do solely hire from some of those kind of enterprise level SaaS companies, um, you know, the um the kind of payments companies or the um you know the the kind of big kind of HR tech platforms. Um and it seem it seems to work. It seems to work for them. So I guess there's no kind of one size fits all. Um, but from what I've seen with in particular kind of early stage businesses when they're hiring, that domain experience is super, super key.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's really interesting. I mean, you think about the payments and the HR tech world, it's massively overpopulated, not many people change as businesses change those those tech stacks that frequently. Yeah. Uh, which kind of feels quite similar, especially if talking about traditional data assets. Yeah. That feels quite similar to okay, let's just build relationships, let's find the right time to get in and be there at the right time at the right point. So I can actually see that overlap. For the the rest of the conversation, I'd love to split this into two. Um, firstly, talking about sort of like the hiring managed perspective and how they can be thinking about hiring in a better way, for want of a better uh statement. Um, and then I'd like to at the end flip it and think about from the candidate's perspective, like how can a candidate pick the best opportunity for the next? How can they come out with the come out on top with the best offer, that sort of thing. So if we start with a hiring manager's perspective, uh what do you see sort of separates elite data sellers from the average ones that you know come into the market in a in a role within a very short period of time versus those or whatever what are the characteristics? How would you separate them?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, great question. Um I think there's again, no one size fits all. Um, but I think um there's absolutely some commonalities like across the board. Um I think the biggest the biggest factor is the understanding of the buyer and the user. Um I think you know, if if you deeply understand that audience and you deeply understand how they would consume the information that you're selling before landing that role and before kind of starting at that firm, you're gonna be tremendously more um you know, quicker to ramp and um you know to generate revenue than someone who you know doesn't have that that kind of natural understanding or that kind of previous understanding. Um I think the other part of the puzzle is again someone who can be credible in front of those buyers. I know we've touched upon it a few times, James, like someone who's able to answer some of those more technical questions that you know these um you know um prospects are are posing. Um and again, like they don't necessarily need to be super, super, super technical themselves, but I think at the very least they need to you know be able to you know quell some of those doubts or you know answer some of those initial questions um that that those guys have, and then obviously you know you've got those more kind of technical folks within the firm nine times out of ten that you can then you know kind of bring in to uh to calls, whether that's someone in product, someone in data and strategy, etc. Um so again, like credibility, understanding of the user, um, and then of course background and and track record of success as well. Um, so you know, what has this person done previously? What have they achieved? Um, and where have they achieved it as well? Because I think there's a lot of instances where you know folks are doing incredible things in a scaled environment where they've got a ton of brand equity that they can leverage, they've got a ton of resources um at their disposal, but if you pluck them out of that environment and then you put them in an environment where they haven't got those resources, they're still figuring out the kind of GTM playbook, maybe they're just post-PMF. I think, and you know, not not in all instances, but I think sometimes a lot of folks kind of struggle with that because they haven't kind of done that sort of zero-to-one piece before. Um so again, it goes back to, I guess it depends on the the organization and the kind of stage they're at that that are hiring, but um, I think ultimately the kind of two main pieces are the understanding of the buyer and that kind of credibility to kind of handle those kind of technical conversations that they're uh that they're asking.
SPEAKER_00And do you think that hiring managers over-index on those more mature businesses and sellers coming from them where you know let's say the hiring manager is uh hiring for a I don't want to call it a startup but more of a scale-up, you know, when you do have to get more down and dirty and there's less resources, do they over end up over-indexing on that quite often and you have to sort of advise them elsewhere, or how does that fall?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think I think sometimes, I think sometimes there's definitely a desire to go after the big, shiny names in the space, right? And um, you know, they're the household names, so you know, hey, let's let's kind of go, you know, go go after talent there. Um, and I understand why, because again, you know, they they they're they're experienced, you know, they have that kind of customer base, um, you know, they have that kind of black book of business for one of a better expression that they can kind of leverage from those early days. Um but again, to your point, they don't have that kind of zero-to-one experience, right? So I think um, you know, sometimes it's really understanding kind of where they're at within that journey, and then, you know, maybe sometimes just kind of saying, okay, you know, may maybe you guys need to kind of um, you know, look at some folks at some earlier stage businesses as well, so you can kind of get that direct comparison. So you can look at someone who's come from a scaled data provider or platform, um, but also someone who's you know done zero to one previously, has kind of done that kind of product feedback iteration piece, um, and and really kind of built that playbook that you know you guys are looking to do now as well.
SPEAKER_01I wonder if the like the like zero to one side on um from a a data perspective is even more like is it like it's really quite different um from SaaS in that you as you're saying that like the product feedback thing is massive when you're going from zero to one um from a SaaS perspective. But as we've already discussed, you don't really get it on the certainly like data as a service on the fun side.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I wonder if and actually maybe this is kind of uh similar to what Sheraz from Corta said when he he came on. He was saying that uh on the like um uh customer success side, he's often to looking to poach people who are on, let's say, sell-side equity research and bring them in because it's like that's the thing you can't easily learn on the job. Yeah, um, is that the technical side, and if you want to be doing kind of zero to one in the data space, your ability to feedback to your team is kind of hampered by the fact that your customers won't give you feedback. So you always need to be front-runner, you need to be able to provide the feedback yourself, I guess, in some ways, and kind of have a guess at why people aren't going for it. So, yeah, I mean that it does seem like the technical side is critical. And how do and I've often wondered this like to what degree are there resources available to learn this stuff post-fact? I well, I don't say post-fact, I mean like post-your earlier business experience, um, in a way that makes you sound credible, as you mentioned earlier. Because like, you know, we can all find out that there's this like this word that investment funds like to use, which is alpha. Yeah. But I have a I have a theory that like that if uh a sales per like if if I, you know, let's say I was selling data and I'm just like constantly talking about alpha on a call with uh a quantum fund, they'd be like, Yeah, all right, mate, you let us worry about the alpha, you just tell us. Like what's the fill rate? What's this? What's that? Like there are specific things that you can say from a technical perspective which make you sound credible. And there are specific things you can say which make you sound very non-credible. And it's really hard to know what the the distinction between those is if you don't have any experience in the space. So yeah, I I mean I uh honestly uh uh credit to people who who upskill them scales for sure post fax uh for something like on something like this.
SPEAKER_02Oh no, for sure, for sure. And I think um yeah, to your point, it's it's it's it's one of the hardest um spaces to operate in as a salesperson. Um so no for sure, like to your point, huge credit to um to all those that operate and and kind of thrive in in this space. Um, you know, I've had a very small window into what it's like to sell into these end users, right? You know, uh a lot of my customers are you know often extinor founders, and um, you know, we've all got you know, thankfully, great relationships now. But you know, to begin with, there there is that kind of um, you know, that kind of not not cajiness, but like, you know, rightfully kind of so guarded you know approach to salespeople. It's like, well, are you just trying to feed me, you know, rubbish here or or or are you is what you're actually saying, you know, accurate and you know, can you back it up? And um, so again, yeah, to your point, you know, huge kudos. Um I think the other thing that you mentioned there was the rise in firms hiring from their customer bases, um, something that we're seeing hugely in the market at the moment. Um, and and to your point, bringing in that kind of expertise is in invaluable, right? Because they understand that workflow, having previously run that workflow themselves, right? And so, you know, when you are operating in environments where to your point you're just not getting that product feedback because, you know, this is our secret source, we're not we're not going to tell you how we how we kind of operate, having that nuanced understanding, I think, is hugely helpful to you know, kind of recruit into the business as well.
SPEAKER_01And something that we're seeing a lot of it's also probably like huge product validation for a data provider to have someone go, I've been evaluating your company and your data from an employer, like from an employment perspective, and I know that it's probably good because I would have wanted to use it. So it, I mean, it's a weird signal, but a signal nonetheless.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I wonder if that makes you talk about earlier about hiring from procurement, sorry, from payment solution or HR Tech, where you're getting really strong salespeople. Like one big aspect of sales is trying that discovery of getting information out of people that don't really want to share something. And there's a lot of psychology behind that part of sales, where actually, if you get a really tenured senior sales rep coming from another industry, maybe they would be actually quite good at uh uh unpicking some of that information. Yeah, hedge funds are really secretive of what they do, but they do open up and they do talk, and as you build their relationship, they do you get more and more information. But I wonder actually if that's the the other benefit of going outside of our industry is that you get a uh I don't want to say there are stronger sales reps in this in the SaaS world. I don't think that's necessarily true, but there is a lot more literature and a lot more resources that are pumped into training sales reps in the SaaS world. So maybe you end up unlocking that a little bit more. So I don't know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, no, for sure, for sure. I think if you're in a um position where you can you know download that information to that SaaS seller, right? Who's bringing all of that structure, that cadence, and that process, and it's just a case of being able to kind of tell them about that kind of end user and and how they interact with your product, I think that's to your point a hugely um you know powerful asset potentially to have because um again, like the process, the structure, the ability to identify champions, the ability to um you know really kind of delve into the prospects problems and what they're trying to solve from the product, I think you know, is is is is just trained inherently into those into those sat sellers.
SPEAKER_00And you said earlier that you're seeing a lot of people come from that, you know, it's called the buy side or the sell side, yeah. Uh coming in and and getting hired from a provider side. What type of roles are they? Are they new business account management roles or are they different types of go-to-market roles?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so mostly in customer success and and and similar um sort of uh positions to the ones that that you mentioned, James, in the sense of product and customer success. Um have absolutely seen um instances from some of these kind of like AI native um sort of emerging players coming into the market, maybe less so on the data provider side, but maybe more so on the kind of workflow automation side. Yeah. Um, that are you know, hiring folks into those kind of net new logo positions as well. Um but I would say on the data side, more so those kind of customer success product positions.
SPEAKER_01Um I guess on the automation side, there's a degree to which you really need that person to be able to articulate the I mean at this point it kind of is SAS, right? Basically, you're you're you need to articulate the pain point, you need to have them run a demo, and for that demo to look like the workflow at that the the end user would actually go through and be able to talk shop and all that. So that makes total sense.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Maybe to conclude this section on sort of the hiring manager perspective, uh actually quite a difficult question. Um, where do you feel the best hiring managers get it right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, great question. I think it's really understanding the fit they need for the stage that they're at. Um, so again, you know, if it's a zero-to-one team build, I think there's a few different ways that you can look at it. You can look at the domain expert who has the book of business, has the network that they can leverage from day one in your buyer segments. And so, you know, that person is hugely valuable, you know, they're able to you know convert those relationships that they have um to your new product or or solution. Um the other element is the zero-to-one builder. So someone who, you know, maybe doesn't necessarily have the level of um industry contacts and relationships that the domain expert has, but they've done that zero-to-one team build piece previously. Um, and so they really understand what it takes to get something from, you know, you know, you know, literally build the plane as you fly it, to use that expression. Um, I would say the Goldilocks zone and uh often the kind of unicorn zone, um, which is why customers use us, is to find someone who's a little bit of column A and a little bit of column B.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, you know, someone who has those contacts that they can leverage, but hasn't just sold scaled platforms, has also been on that kind of zero-to-one journey previously. Um those yeah, I I think it depends on the stage itself, but I I would say, you know, those are the kind of main, the kind of main areas.
SPEAKER_00And I think about the the times where I've been in the market historically and the way hiring managers have sort of moved has definitely affected my decision. So I think there's there's been roles where they've made decisions within seven, eight days, and there's been roles where I'm generally interested in it, but you're sort of eight or nine stages in, you have office in hand, and it's quite frustrating. As a recruiter's point of view, how do you manage the hiring manager's sort of expectations of all the stages, weighing up the fact that you've got a good candidate that may go an opportunity that's not yours necessarily? How do you manage that process?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, um, we're just as frustrated. So when it's when when it's kind of you know, um, you know, dragging on a little bit and and you know that candidate is in advanced conversations, um, you know, sometimes even with your customer's competitor, um it's very much a case of the kind of education piece. Um, I think it's also very much understanding and diagnosing at the kind of front end of the conversation with the candidate where they're at in that process and in that journey. So um, you know, one of the first things that we do, excuse me, one of the first things that we do is really look to understand what that kind of interview pipeline looks like for that person, um, you know, where they're at in that process. And then for, you know, very, very early on in that kind of introduction, make sure that the hiring manager is aware of, you know, hey, this person has XYZ going on. Um, you know, we might need to just kind of bear that in mind when when kind of going through going through process. Is there anything we can do to kind of expedite things? Um, because yeah, to your point, um, and particularly now, more than ever, um, it's a super, super competitive market out there. Um, you know, the the scaled platforms are innovating, they're investing in new products, bringing out new, um, you know, building whole new teams to kind of launch new lines. And um, you know, there's a lot of investment going into this space and a lot of new early players are coming out. And so you have to be the the first um, you know, to uh to kind of make the move or at least you know quick and and matching the pace of of others. Because if you are looking at an eight-stage, nine-stage interview process, um, you know, obviously the theory there is you want to make sure that you're getting the hire right. Um, but often, you know, you can miss the mark on some really, really talented people because you know those other businesses are a little bit more agile and they're able to get more decision makers in the room together to uh to move faster. Yeah, I mean, nine stages, that's that's just outrageous.
SPEAKER_00I wasn't embellishing the truth a little bit there, but it has got to the point where you know you have some offers in hand and you're kind of like, I'm really interested in this, but guys, you're taking a lot of time. Can we can we move on?
SPEAKER_01I don't think there's a company in the world who I would ever believe that nine interviews would be the appropriate. That's just ridiculous.
SPEAKER_02But I've you know, but all joking aside, we do see it. I mean, maybe not nine, but you know, certainly like really, really long interview processes, and it and it is sometimes just kind of having a conversation and saying, Hey, you know, can we can we do can can we do anything here? You know, can we, you know, maybe get a couple of people on on the same call because um yeah, if if if if if you're too slow, you're you you're too slow, sadly.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And maybe that's a nice segue to the candidate's perspective. So if you flip that question and say how how and actually if you think about if you think about it in the candidate's perspective, they're talking to all these companies and quite often you know the companies are selling the dream to to the the candidate.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they're in their ninth, they're not in their ninth interview, they're very excited.
SPEAKER_00Interview burnout here. And interviews are as much as you trying to understand the opportunity is them trying to understand you, uh you know, understand and measure you as a as a candidate. So, like how can reps best understand whether the opportunity is as good as the hiring team are saying?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, great, great question. I think there's a lot of different layers to uh to look at. Um I think the one thing I would urge candidates not to just fully rely on is glassdoor. Um, I think nine times out of ten, a lot of candidates go straight to glass door and can often make their decisions purely off of that glass door. Um I would say definitely use it as a data point, but don't make the entirety of your decision off the back of that because it's like a restaurant, right? Like if you're leaving a review, nine times out of ten, you're not leaving the positive review. I mean, you might do sometimes if you have a really, really great experience that you're you know really happy with, or you know, the waiter or the waitress was great, and and you really want to make sure that they kind of get noticed and recognized for that. But the majority of the time you're leaving a review because you've had a bad experience. And so um that would be the first thing I would say is again, use it as a data point, but not the entirety of uh the data that you use to uh to kind of make a make a decision.
SPEAKER_01Um and just quickly, like the the thing I've noticed on there is that like the comp ranges, I look at them and I'm like, that just can't be right for that organization. So looking at Glassdoor for that kind of data is just ridiculous as far as I can tell. The reviews, I would say at least someone has to write something, but you're right, it's gonna skew one way or the other. But the salary sometimes on that, I just know that like you know, the X person at Y is like is earning far more than than than is being described with even within the range on the Glassdoor salary thing.
SPEAKER_00The biases of review data, hey? Hey, quite quite just a quick question on that, because like okay, you're a you're you're a candidate doing your your research, great, you're looking at Glassdoor. Obviously, there are some um how seriously you should take some of the reviews. But sometimes some of the reviews are diff, you know, difficult to read, but like are alarming. Do you think candidates should be asking questions directly about the Glassdoor reviews? How how can you manage that conversation so you can take that data point and and sort of use that either to get a direct answer or collect other information? What else should you be looking at?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think you you you can definitely ask the question, right? And I think this kind of goes back to the kind of broader point in that as much as they're interviewing you, you're also interviewing them, right? Like the due diligence is a kind of two-way street. So I think you can definitely ask the questions. I think there's a tactile way of uh asking the questions um without sort of like upsetting anyone or or or or or um yeah, you know, upsetting anyone. Um I think um also it it comes down to when you're asking these questions as well. I think if you're asking these questions right at the front end of the process and you've literally just met this person, you know, it it can kind of create a little bit of a a kind of wrong impression. Um if you're asking it, you know, maybe second or third interview, um, and you're asking it in such a way of, you know, hey, I've really, really enjoyed these conversations so far. Um, you know, sounds like a really exciting time to be joining X Company. Um, just wanted to kind of bring something up that I have seen in in some of my research. Um, you know, can you comment on this or you know, can I get your thoughts on this? Um again, like you're gonna get a very particular answer, right? So it's it's it's again the reason why you need to kind of use it as one part of the data source as opposed to the kind of entirety of the data source. But um, you know, at least then you can kind of hear it directly from them and and and hear how they're you know fielding that question.
SPEAKER_01Uh well, I've heard like friends and um uh contacts do that. It tends to be that the response, though like couched in corporate speak, still answers the question in a way and like the attitude of that person to you asking almost gives you the indication of like, does this sound like you know an unfair review, or actually is this like a quite unpleasant uh environment to work in? Um so yeah, I think like you almost have to like veil it that way, they'll veil it themselves, and as long as you're like able to read between the lines, you're probably gonna figure out whether the review is um uh is is valid from your own perspective.
SPEAKER_00I've I've asked a question, and I and you're right. I've had a I've had a very corporate answer that gone, well that answers my question, and I no longer want this role.
SPEAKER_01Does sound like a hostile work environment after all?
SPEAKER_02The answer can be, and yeah, the way that they answer the question can definitely be telling. Um and and sometimes, yeah, like you say, even if they are giving you a corporate kind of scripted um, you know, kind of answer, if if they're really defensive or or almost kind of angry that you've that you've asked that question, then you know you can kind of make your own assumptions, I guess.
SPEAKER_01Didn't didn't you mention there's a is it rep view is another is that what it's called?
SPEAKER_00How familiar with rep view as a source of reviews for sales?
SPEAKER_02Fairly familiar. Um, you know, I know I I know them more so as a kind of SaaS um sort of sales rep information provider. Um but yeah, very familiar with what they do. Uh I know they're also uh an alternative data provider now as well, right? So they're kind of selling that information and leveraging that with with hedge funds.
SPEAKER_00Uh I was going to bring it up a bit later, but they obviously don't have much data in on our world, very much more SaaS side. But I appreciate we've sort of moved on from the other question, Ashley. But since we're here now, the compensation side, do you do you find that the ret view sort of numbers from numbers sort of align well with data, or are they sort of two different worlds that are paid very, very differently?
SPEAKER_02Um I think they're very different worlds. Um I think there's definitely still some alignment in between um yeah, the the the the way that these kind of comps are are sort of packaged. Um but yeah, I think I think to answer your question that that they're different worlds, right?
SPEAKER_01Um did do you see like on the compensation side, do you see a kind of combo? Because obviously if you're looking on the SaaS side, right, there's going to be some combination of salary, commission, and you know, if you're looking pre-series C or D, you're probably looking at some equity options as as well. And you know, the the closer you are to um kind of product market fit and revenue, the lower the the equity, for example, tends to be. Is is it is that the same sort of structure that you would see on the compensation side, or is it is in the data world uh do you see kind of less equity, uh more commission, less you know, I I I have no idea. So um yeah, it'd be great to hear your thoughts.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I think there's there's almost kind of two um two kind of markets, right? There's the kind of scaled provider, and then there's the kind of zero-to-one, sort of early stage kind of startup. Um pros and cons to both, um, but very different kind of comp arrangements, I would say. Um so obviously in in the kind of scaled kind of enterprise um landscape, you're probably gonna see a larger fixed um part of the part of the compensation, so a larger base salary or larger base salary ranges being offered. Um, but because they're scaled platforms, um, you know, particularly for kind of net new logo seats in those in those environments, um, you know, you might see less aggressive upside or or less aggressive um variable compensation. Um on the other side of the coin, um, you know, on the kind of start-up, scale up, you know, challenger um end of the landscape, you know, those guys, unless you're you know one of the very few exceptions who have you know just got crazy, crazy backing, um, you know, you you probably can't compete with the salaries being offered by the larger enterprise organizations where you can provide a really, really interesting conversation for the right person who you know just wants to eat what they kill and earn as much as possible, is in that variable compensation because um, you know, to your point, you know, they're they're they're early to market, you know, they have customers, they have PMF, they have those um, you know, case studies that they can leverage, but there is still a ton of white space um to go after. Um, so that's the cell of joining one of those organizations. And then also to to use your point, you know, typically in those earlier environments, you know, if you're the first or one of the early hires, there's typically um, you know, not always, of course, but typically some form of uh eSop opportunity as well.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Pretty sure it went a bit away with there, but I guess the original question was how can best uh uh rep reps or candidates best understand the opportunity? We we touched there on I guess compensation, but also sort of reading online review sources. Um how can they assess the opportunity as you know a salesperson is just as good as its product that it's selling? So how can they assess that in the market? How have you found good candidates really get underneath that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. So again, like a few things to unpack. I think um understanding where the business is at from a PMF perspective, understanding how many customers the organization has currently, um, understanding what renewal cycles have come from those customers, you know, have they had customers that have gone through a renewal cycle? Um, and um, you know, that's probably the again, obviously depends on on um you know where the business is and it's is is in its journey. But you know, if it's you know kind of year two or or year three of kind of being go to market and it's got like a really high churn rate, then you know, maybe that's cause for um you know question marks. Um but you know, if it's year two, year three of its journey and you know that retention rate um is is solid, then obviously um you know you can kind of uh make those assumptions that you know the PMF is is there. Um I think also you can look to um reach out to reps that are in these organizations. I think um again, you know, just kind of being sort of tactful and um you know kind of making sure that you kind of approach it in the right way. Um, but you know, sellers understand, you know, the situation that other sellers are in. And so I think if you were to kind of reach out to uh a salesperson in an organization and just say, like, hey, you know, speaking to so and so here, you know, sounds like a really great opportunity. Um, again, providing the opportunities obviously like public domain knowledge and everyone, everyone knows that they're that they're hiring. Um, you know, speaking to you know, such and such leader about the Opportunity here. Would love to just kind of better understand the organization from your POV. Have you got some time maybe to kind of jump on a call? Or is there anything you can share with a message? We see companies do it sometimes. If they know someone who's managed someone previously or you know, kind of rub shoulders with someone in the past, you know, they'll absolutely kind of use those avenues. So I think salespeople can can can use those same avenues them themselves.
SPEAKER_01Can I ask just quickly, you mentioned this earlier. Um, having never been like hired or through the hiring process myself as a salesperson, can you just flat out ask questions like what's your churn rate? Like, is that a completely reasonable thing to do? Or do you have to be much more tactful? And because it seems like once you mentioned that, I was like, Well, yeah, of course you should be able to ask that. Um, because you're gonna be going into to try and flog this stuff. But like, to what degree do you find that that's actually something people are can ask? Like, how would you couch it um if you do need to be a bit tactful about it? And do you find that uh hiring managers are willing to actually give like that kind of data out to candidates?
SPEAKER_02I think it depends the it it's it it it's all dependent on the way that you ask the question, um, and also when you ask the question. Um so like the closer you are to off a stage and the more that the company wants you, you're in a very powerful position to um, you know, really dive into some of these kind of questions and and and just kind of I guess kind of be a little bit more open with with your cards, um, you know, to say like, hey, like this opportunity is fantastic, you know, I'm really excited, obviously keeping it positive. Um, however, you know, we'd just love to dive into XYZ. Um I think on the churn rate piece again, some people will just ask it outright, and um, you know, and and and and and and that's just kind of their approach. Um, if I was asking the question, maybe we'd do it a little bit more kind of tactfully, maybe look to kind of understand, again, you know, how many of these customers are renewing, maybe kind of asking it in in in that sort of way. So you're still asking the same question, not just what's your churn rate type of approach. So ACV churn rate. Tell me now. Three seconds, go. But yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's a lot easier to do if they're public, right? Because a lot of this information is publicly disclosed. And then I mean, you'd then take that information and go, your net retention rate is 120%. Is that representative of the product that I'm selling, or is that being driven by something else? And then all of a sudden it's actually showing you're doing a lot of research into the company, and it's almost a good question to ask. But you've said this a couple of times now, where it's it feels like in the early part of the interview stage, candidates should be trying to sell themselves and not asking the the difficult questions, and that later in the interview stage the part the power dynamics kind of swing towards the candidate, it's kind of becoming clearer that they're you know, as the punel uh the pipeline sort of narrows for um for them in in that uh in that process, that they have a lot more power, yeah, I guess to to ask these more direct questions.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. And um I think whilst you can still ask the questions earlier on in the process, like our advice is to always leverage that power that you have at the end of the process. Um because again, you know, to you to use your um you know terminology, you know, it's it's still a two-way street, right? So the power dynamic hasn't kind of like fully sort of like um you know kind of converted into in in in into their uh their street, so to speak, but they're in a much more um you know powerful position to ask some of those kind of tougher questions and um you know kind of better understand some of those dynamics. Um also by that point you've built hopefully you've built a good rapport with that individual or that group of individuals. And so, you know, it's not kind of like almost a little bit frosty, just kind of watch your churn, or like like right at the beginning of the conversation because you know, maybe you've spent two, three hours, um, hopefully not 10 plus hours if you've if you've been for a you know too long of a process, but you know, you've spent ample enough time to you know have that rapport and um you know kind of ask some of those uh some of those questions towards the end of the process.
SPEAKER_00You mentioned earlier about reaching out to to others to other reps in that team and and sort of getting their opinion. Um it feels like it's a really difficult market to stand out as a candidate, especially if you think about you look at any posting on LinkedIn, it it kind of feels like there are hundreds, if not thousands, of people that have sort of hit quick quick apply. AI's made it a lot easier to tailor CVs to job descriptions, which is great, but also means there's a lot more noise coming into the hiring manager's inbox. And actually, there's probably a lot of good candidates to get missed. So, where have you seen good candidates sort of manage that situation so that they are being seen or you know, they're getting their foot in the door a lot quicker and more efficiently?
SPEAKER_02Great, great question. Um, the first thing I would say is completely ignore the volume of applications that you see next to a role. Um I've been on this receiving end of that volume of applications um, you know, way too many times um when when advertising roles. And I can honestly say, and I I know this from peers across um you know the recruitment sector, not just in GTM, but you know, even even broader, uh broader hiring verticals, 90% of those applications aren't relevant. And out of maybe the 10% that are relevant, even a smaller percentage is relevant for that particular role, right? Like they might come from the same sort of background or they might have the right type of skills, but they're not right for this particular role. And so the first thing I say to all candidates, and the first thing I would say to anyone looking for a role is just don't pay any attention, or or don't allow yourself rather to be put off by seeing that number of applications next to a role. Um, equally, I would say don't rely solely on that easy apply channel because you are just gonna get lost. Um, again, I've been on the receiving end of that volume of applications and try as you might to get through as many as possible and and and leave personalized feedback. It's just impossible to really kind of um you know to do. And again, you try and not miss anyone. Um, but you know, nine times out of ten, you know, someone does slip through the slip through the cracks. Um, and so again, don't rely just on that kind of easy, easy, easy apply channel. Um, what I tell everyone is treat your job search like a sales process. Um, you're in a very unique position as a salesperson to have all of this skill set to leverage to help you land a new role. Um, you should absolutely use it. Um, you know, map out your prospects, your target employers, map out your stakeholders, the hiring managers, the you know, persons of interest within these organizations, um, and enter them into a sales process and a cadence, you know, cold call, email, LinkedIn, voice note, carrier pigeon, you know, like whatever it takes essentially to get in front of these people. And I promise you, you will stand out. You know, absolutely still apply, but then go through that process to highlight the fact that you've applied and hey, I've just applied for this role. I'm really interested, you know, what whatever that kind of messaging, um, you know, messaging is. Um and also not only are you helping yourself stand out, but you're also giving an indication to a CRO or a sales leader or a founder of how you would approach their prospects and the tenacity in which you would do so. And so they're almost getting like a front row seat of how their prospects will feel. Um, it's interesting that you mentioned it's interesting this whole kind of piece because um I won't mention the individual's name um or the organization, but I placed someone um last year, uh early last year, within a um alternative data business. And um, I just want to caveat this by saying this was through no coaching of you know, mine he did this fully of his own kind of autonomy. Um, you know, went through the kind of interview process um and then meticulously researched every single stakeholder that he met. Like not just surface level LinkedIn profile, but you know, really tried to understand, you know, what this person's interested in, you know, their hobbies, etc. Um, referenced that during conversations, and then followed up like a salesperson would with each individual, you know, really enjoyed our conversation, um, you know, entered in a particular piece of relevant insight that came from that conversation, or you know, noticed that you're also interested in export or ex-hobby. Um, you know, did you catch this show? Or, you know, whatever that kind of particular relevant piece was for each stakeholder kind of went through that process to the point where the CRO even referenced it to me when they were making an offer, they were like, we've never had someone just go through this meticulous process of um, you know, kind of running a running a cadence on us. And um again, like it just made him stand out from any other kind of direct applicant or um you know any of the candidates that we were uh that that we were working with. Um so again, like the biggest thing is I would just treat your job search like a sales process.
SPEAKER_00My concluding question was going to be what would be your your advice to candidates. But that that that felt like that covers that really well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that was a very comprehensive answer to the the final question.
SPEAKER_00Well, we appreciate you coming on, Kai. It's been a really interesting perspective to think about uh think about building a data business. Yeah, it's been super useful. Thanks, Kai.
SPEAKER_02No, it's been a great conversation. Thanks for having me, guys. Cheers.