The Jason Tarasek interview

Jason Tarasek is a knowledgeable cannabis partner at Vicente LLP. He has been working in the Minnesota hemp and cannabis industry since 2018. In 2019 he served as Minnesota’s Political Director for Marijuana Policy Project, where he helped orchestrate the state’s first-ever legislative hearing on cannabis legalization. 

As a cannabis policy advocate, Jason has spent many hours at the Minnesota State Capitol. In 2022, Jason successfully lobbied in favor of Minnesota’s “edible cannabinoid product” law, which sparked an explosion in the popularity of hemp-derived THC beverages throughout Minnesota and the United States. In 2023, he advocated for Minnesota’s passage of an adult-use cannabis bill. Today, Jason continues to strive for sensible policy as Minnesota implements its adult-use cannabis program while expanding its trailblazing hemp-derived THC beverage industry. 

In this episode, I sit down with Jason and talk about our long history of working together to connect and improve Minnesota cannabis for hemp entrepreneurs, homegrowers, tribal businesses, consumers, and medical patients. We discuss how Vicente got started, and why it might not be a good idea to have more dispensaries than Starbucks in the Twin Cities. 

We cover Jason’s optimism and his hope for equilibrium in 2026 as it relates to supply and demand within Minnesota’s cannabis industry. We also touch on the Wisconsin cannabis industry, or lack thereof, and his work with Tribal organizations who are interested in the Minnesota model and how they can replicate something similar in their state. The only problem? Wisconsin doesn’t even have a medical cannabis program! 

Lastly, we clear up a misconception around one of Jason’s clients and his involvement in the delay of the social equity lottery. 

This is a really great episode if you’re interested in the Minnesota cannabis industry and the greater opportunity across the midwest. Thanks for listening. 

Transcript

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The thoughts, views and opinions expressed on the organic and X show belong solely to the individuals and do not reflect those of Canna Connect and its affiliates, sponsors or partners. Cannot connect does not promote or facilitate any activity that violates state or federal regulations. Everything you hear here. Is strictly for educational and entertainment purposes. It is not legal advice, it is not financial guidance, and it's. Definitely not medical direction. Seriously, don't take our word for it. Even if someone on the mic sounds like they know what they're talking about and they're probably crazy. Smart too. Regardless of how legit our guests May be you should always do your own homework, consult with your attorney, and understand the risk you're taking before you do anything when it comes to cannabis. Our intention is to keep it real. If you've got a problem with. Anything we've said, take us to court. Welcome back to the Canna Connect show. Today I am joined by Jason Trask, attorney at Vincente LLP. Jason and I have known each other back since 2019. He joined Vicente in 2023. On the show, we're going to dig into the Minnesota cannabis industry, where we're currently at. What's informed the current situation from where we were four years ago or even seven years ago We're also going to talk about the Midwest and what's potential opportunities in Wisconsin. Jason, I appreciate you being on the show today. Thank you for sharing everything you have. Thanks for having me. Always a pleasure to see you. Thank you. Thank you. We're going to get right into it. On the Canna Connect show. So when you and I were first getting to know each other, hemp didn't get you high. Yeah, it was a different. It was a it was a different industry here. Less. Less upside. Yeah. Well, and then the 2018 farm bill changed all that. Yeah. Congress legalized intoxicating hemp. And those products almost certainly unwittingly. Yeah. Kind of like perhaps what we did with our edible cannabinoid product law in 2022. Right? Depends on who you talk to. Well, everybody says they knew exactly what they're doing. Yeah. Right. Right. Right, right. Well, yeah, I mean, Curtis and. Yeah. Dugas and, you know, there were folks behind the scene moving and shaking, but. Those are the two main players. Yes. With, with respect to the 2018 farm bill. I've never asked this question in theory. Had you had a crystal ball? Not you, Jason, but like an operator in the space, you could have started making those Delta nine products effectively as soon as the as soon as Trump signed the farm bill. Yes. In Europe. Yeah. It was not. It was a little bit of like, what do we do with all this CBD? What do we do with. I'm sitting on, you know, if I'm Ben Lipkin and Neil Halprin, I'm sitting on acres of hemp or Chadwick Lange, I'm sitting on acres of hemp. Nobody wants to buy this flower. Yeah. So over time, I feel like innovation really was. Or like, out of necessity. They were like, what do we do with all this balance? Right. Yeah. For sure. One thing among cana- cannabis entrepreneurs is they will find the wrinkle. Yeah. You know, good for them. It's a fascinating place to work. And obviously, that wrinkle, they it became a $30 billion industry nationwide that is now in jeopardy of being shut down completely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, first it like to me, it's it's funny because as I saw it in Minnesota, first the operators were converting Delta eight or converting into Delta eight and then then Delta nine. Yeah. So it was just kind of a oh, how far can we push this. How far can we actually go to create products that people actually want, which is for better or for worse, it's the products that get you high. Yeah, that that sell the best. Well, and the interesting thing is that Wisconsin is still where we were in 2021 before we passed the edible cannabinoid product law. And it makes me really uncomfortable because none of that stuff has been tested. Who knows whether the labels are accurate. So you can make it in a you can do it in a lab in Hudson, you can make your gummies and then there's no there's no need for COA’s or testing. Yeah, I was at a convenience store in State Street in Madison, and they're selling. They have a little glass jar, like you'd find cookies and or coffee or something with THCA hemp flour. Deli style? Sure. I mean. Right. That's weed. Hey, everybody. Stephen, with Canna Connect taking a quick minute to shout out today's sponsor, C.E.E. that is the Center for Energy and Environment. If you're not familiar with C.E.E. they're your one stop shop for all lighting rebates. If you are in Xcel Energy territory and you're a micro business CEE, somebody that you need to talk to. Give Brad a call. Give Tony a call. Go online One-Stop shop LED lighting rebates. They'll help take care of up to 60% of the cost associated with your grow and your build out with the lighting. Really nice people. Great people to work with. Huge sponsors of Canna Connect and, give them a shout. That's CEE center for Energy and Environment. You, you and I and you more than I. But we have national. We have conversations with national players. And hemp is depending on what state and what person you're talking to. They have very different opinions on THCA flower. I'm not going to call it hemp because in Minnesota we don't we don't see that as hemp. We've the regulations have, have prevented that from being a problem. Yeah. In the sense I mean there's Za Za cannabis. There's there's a couple of, kooky brands out there, but the, the vast majority of folks follow the rules in Minnesota. And I think that's why we're seeing as a such a strong, market for logos. So when I was lobbying that bill in 2022, legislators would, would say, you want us to regulate it, regulate you? And I said, yes. Then the customers will trust our products. And so I actually think sales increased after it got regulated. Right. And I think Wisconsin would see that too. Sure. I mean, Lunds and Byerly’s wouldn't take, an unregulated product onto their shelves. Right? I wouldn't either. Yeah. Fair, fair. So like the the level of legitimacy. Yeah. Increases through regulation. Yeah. Sell it to adults only, make sure it doesn't have harmful stuff in it, and make sure people actually know what they're putting in their bodies. And then you've got a regulated market that consumers can trust. This is a farm bill that didn't, age gate by any means. So, like, you could be zero years old and buy, hemp product. I mean, I'm being facetious, but like the I remember those days where you could get CBD flower and CBD flower and it was up to the store to say, we're going to sell this to 18 year olds, or we're going to sell this to 21 year olds. And like, you know, I talked about this on the show often. I do miss some of those 2020, 2021. I do miss some of those products. You know, I, I feel that medical lobbying, the duopoly, once they started to see the rise of low dose gummies and things like that, they, they did their best to like cut out some of the products that hemp stores were selling at the time. And, and, you know, there were certainly folks vocal on the hemp side that said, hey, this isn't fair. Like, these are hemp products. This is a CBG vape. I should be able to sell this. And, but when you get regulation, it's not going to be perfect. Yeah, I would love to see the beverages survive, if nothing else. Right. It's been fascinating to watch that cultural revolution in Minnesota and elsewhere. Yeah. People want that choice on the menu, for sure. As the nonalcoholic trend grows and grows. I that was one question I wanted to ask you. Do you have any personal favorites? On the on the liquid side. I don't drink them. Okay, okay. Apologies To all my clients and friends. Okay, but you you you find cannabis to be helpful in different ways. Of course. Yeah. The drinks aren't my thing. I have teenage boys. I don't want those in the refrigerator. Yeah. Your boys are teenagers now. Yeah. Right, right. I hear you as soon as you can crack a can. Because it's not all that different than a Diet Coke or a Mountain Dew. So, like, I totally get that. Yeah, right. We talk about it all the time. They're very interested. They know what I do for a living. A lot of their friends know what I do for a living. But, you know, I've told them your brain is developing until you're 25. Yeah. I am not going to be the guy who introduces you to marijuana, right? It's not going to happen in this house. I mean, one statistic that I, I like to pull, to pull back to is how cannabis use actually declined in Colorado after it was legalized for adolescents and teenagers. And I remember going to like the, the Ryan Winkler Road Show in pre-pandemic. To like in Eden Prairie. I remember going And people were vocal but on both sides of pro legalization, anti legalization. But like I can speak. So there's that you're familiar with that study but also well maybe you are maybe you’re not. But the April 2019 hearing. Yeah. When they had flown in an opponent from Colorado. Yeah. And even he admitted that teen use goes down after a state legalizes. That was a crucial moment, because all the advocates have been saying that. But to even hear it from the guys opposing it. Yeah, it's because we don't put it on a pedestal and tell you you can't use it because it's bad, well if it's bad. I want to try. Yeah, it it's, it's an interesting fact, let's put it that way. And honestly, if it was different, if teen use went up, I don't know if I could do this work. Sure. I wouldn't feel right about it. Right. I agree, I agree, I, I fundamentally agree because. I think you have to try a number of different. You have to give like, I think a lot of the early hemp entrepreneurs in this space, I think of Jamie Croyle as someone who always said, go low, go slow, start low, low and slow, low and slow, low and slow, and so like to find what works for you to be a functional cannabis user and not just like the stereotypical cannabis user. And and you know, a lot of where I am able to be a proponent of that is through the minor cannabinoids or talking about when you combine CBD and THC, it's a different effect if you add CBG and THC and CBD, and you can get a more balanced feeling versus what I call I'm not a user of the just THC beverages in general, like rarely because I, I know that it affects me quite differently. It's more like redlining and I do like a ten or more. I like the balance, you know, and shout out to BLNCD. The entourage effect? Right. And, and I think that's something that, as we hope to see a carve out for some products in this space and on the hemp side Canna Connect as we. Cant’ see who is this this? So we did this with Back Channel. We did. Oh, cool. Eight milligrams of five cannabinoids. Oh nice! So we know a nice 40 milligram blend and, we're just going to keep pushing that because we, we believe because of that experience early on in the hemp industry, the, the minor cannabinoids play such a major role. Yeah. Yeah. We're just scratching the surface. We're still learning about the plant, right? Right. I mean, you know, and I don't want to jump too far, but, like, something I want to talk to you about is like, the schedule three and the opportunity for safer banking and like, yes. Are those pipe dreams to some degree or like, are they unknowns? But man, would that absolutely change. Yeah. What. Yeah the outlook of things. But as far as what's happening right now, like tell me a little bit about let's go back to the last three years. Let's kind of talk about how things have evolved for you since joining Vicente. Yeah. We hit the ground running. I joined them in June of 2023. We had a big event at Surly Brewing. We must have had, I don't know, several hundred very eager entrepreneurs there. It was so exciting. I would say the excitement is waning. You know, it has beaten a lot of folks down just this interim period with the rollout of licensing. But, yeah, I think this is the year we reach equilibrium, I hope. Obviously we have a product shortage out in the market where dispensaries are opening and there's not a lot to sell. But as the cultivators come online, as the indoor grows, start harvesting. I'm hoping that we'll start equal. I'm hearing maybe you're hearing this too, but, lots of interesting ideas in terms of maybe using one big plot of land for multiple micros. Okay. I, the OCM, I think would allow that so long as they're each independently operated. Sure. Because it's difficult to find the economies of scale. Right, with the canopy sizes of these licenses. I think I think on its surface, people don't realize how much of a sacrifice it is to go into the cannabis industry and try to start something from nothing, or to try to take something from below ground to above ground. And, you know, unfortunately, like there's a quite a few counties in southern Minnesota that want nothing to do with cannabis agriculture, despite the fact that it's farming. And it would actually help the Minnesota agriculture industry. But I mean, what I'm hearing from you or what I'm picking up is like, maybe I've heard of something, but it's way up in in the Iron Range. Oh, yes, I know about that one. But there are other thoughts and works. I think we when the the spring summer planting season comes around, I think you might see these ideas actually. Yeah. Becoming reality. Sure. And so, as far as like who, like who's your typical client or from a licensee standpoint, like who what what. There's like 12 license types or more. So like, who are you? Who are you representing from a license standpoint? You know. Everybody. Yeah. So my clients tend to fall in one of three buckets. It's folks brand new to cannabis. No experience in hemp. Just saw an opportunity. Takin’ a shot. Wow. Mostly Minnesotans right in that bucket. And then we have folks in the hemp space looking to transition to the adult use space. A lot of those folks got super motivated after the shutdown, bill. And and the fright that, oh, my God, my hemp thing might be done in a year. Who knows what's going to happen federally. There will continue to be an intrastate market for hemp. Yes. Is that enough for a lot of these guys? I don't know. I think a lot of them were making most of their money exporting. But... The plants, at least. Yeah. Yeah. Or, or even You know, beverages, whatever. That's a I mean, the plant in the sense of manufacturing. Yeah. I'm sorry. Yes. And that's the third bucket. Are folks from out of state maybe succeeding elsewhere in an adult use market looking to expand here? What is their feedback on this market? Because it's all unique. Unique is a very Minnesota polite word! There I mean, everyone's frustrated. Yeah. I gotta say, the folks on the third bucket who have worked in other markets are a bit bewildered. And I have to explain, like what the idea was behind all of this. Sure. ‘Cos you were there. Yeah. And the idea of social equity in the craft cannabis market and trying to build enough in the microbrewery, model. Because we hadn't been through all that. A lot of this stuff wouldn't make any sense. But, you know, there's a so these buckets have a spectrum of sophistication. Yeah. You know. Yeah. And, frankly, capital funding. Right. But honestly, people in every bucket are succeeding. Yes. Yes. That's the quiet part. Yeah. That's what the legislature wanted. Right. And I don't know if any other state has really helped those people in that first bucket as much as we have. Okay. They really a lot of those folks are doing quite well. Okay. That's despite all the obstacles. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's a significant amount of obstacles and I don't ever want to, not pay that attention. You know, give that respect to these craft independent mom and pop individuals that are taking a chance. Yeah. I think there was a thought among a lot of these folks that, oh, once I get the license, yeah, the investors will find me. That isn't happening. Five years ago, maybe. Yeah. And even if you're relatively sophisticated. The investors are not going to find you like I just haven't seen that happening. Like if you don't have a stack of cash laying around. Right. Right. It's going to be challenging. Well and working with friends and family and raising at angel investor level is also comes with a lot of challenges around transparency, communication. How is this money being spent? When is my return going to come through it? It's not. Especially when you're waiting for testing, you're waiting for your license, or you're you're needing to build out before you can get your license. So what? When you do see some success in each of the three buckets, like what are some examples of that? Like from a moving their piece along the way on the board. On the board. Well, you know, obviously I think we know opening a dispensary is probably the easiest thing of the three. Sure. And so we have many, many dispensaries opening throughout the state. Yeah. Unfortunately, there is not enough product to stock the shelves. I'm hoping this is the year like we've talked about equilibrium. We'll start having enough product. Sure. And the product goes past. All right. You know, you look at you look at a group like, Redwood County. We bought. Six. Seven. I have done the six seven thing on here. I, you know, I, I'm more of a two three I'm more of a two, three guy. Two, three, four. You know. Okay. But like, you know, I've talked to Sean. He's like. Yeah. And he's he's said this publicly as well. He's like, I, I grew x amount of pounds and I was able to sell that like that. And, and and guess what? All those pounds are going to get sold and purchased and consumed in like it's just like the actual amount of supply that we need. Because I think this market will be. I heard somebody yesterday refer to it as like a baby Michigan. So like there are a lot of consumers here and not all the consumers understand the brands and the, the duopoly the way that you and I do. So they're just happy that they can walk into a shop and buy an eighth. And you know we legalized possession and consumption almost three years ago. Yeah. Licensed dispensaries are only opening now. The gray market is doing quite well. Yes. It will take a while to stand up regulated, licensed dispensaries and convince people to visit those instead of. Your local guy. Yeah, well, and. And and pretty easy to just go to Michigan and buy a bunch of stuff moving over here. Sure. At a low price. Yeah. Yeah, for sure, but plus home grow. Yeah. I mean, that's, you know, that's that's what really brought Tanner and I together in, in 2023, right after we legalized in Minnesota, because there was a need to educate people on how to grow at home, how to grow really big plants and and how to, you know, take a clone and turn it into a plant and like. That era could only be so long since before folks learn on their own. Not everybody wants to grow at home. But I am so appreciative that we have the home grow because if all else fails, you can do it yourself. Absolutely. Yeah. That's a very nice feature. And every state should have that. Every state really should. Yeah. I mean, yeah. So I mean, what other states do you pay attention to? I think I think you've been do you've, you've been over to Wisconsin and tell me a little bit about what you're seeing there. Yeah. So my law firm is working with a coalition called the Wisconsin Wellness Campaign. And in Wisconsin, it's largely comprised of native American tribes of Wisconsin who, yeah, are watching what's happening over here. Sure. And would love in on the action. There's a conference going on this month. There is. Okay. And I think what's driving the tribal nations more than anything is like the ability to offer medical cannabis to their people. Yeah. Tribal nations. I think most people wouldn't be surprised to learn, like, opiates tend to ravage them a little more than other communities. Alcohol problems tend to ravage their communities, and medical cannabis can be a real option. It doesn't kill you. Doesn't lead to disease that we know of. Right. And they would like that option for their people. That makes sense. There's a medical cannabis bill under discussion in Wisconsin. It's lost a bit of momentum. Okay. Because they're. Excuse me. They're also trying to deal with intoxicating hemp there. Yeah. And, you know, most legislators have a full plate of things they're working on. And just with all due respect to them. It doesn't take much for the issues to get confusing. Yeah. I mean, cannabis is confusing for everyone. But when legislators start hearing intoxicating hemp, medical cannabis, it's sort of like, overwhelms them. Yeah. So it might be that intoxicating hemp is something that moves in Wisconsin, and we might need to wait another session on medical cannabis. Sure. Sure. It might need to be another election cycle in Wisconsin. Things are changing there. Okay. I'm not giving up hope. Yeah. This month is crunch time for medical cannabis. If something doesn't start moving soon. We're going to have to wait. Okay. And from a population standpoint and a number of tribes standpoint are is is Minnesota and Wisconsin similar? Very similar. I won’t say almost identical but almost identical. Similar regions. Yep. Yeah. Population size, number of tribes, that sort of thing. And also like the number of tribes, like with, super popular, casinos. Yeah. Kind of matches their casino. Environment is similar. They're trying to run in the Potawatomi in Milwaukee. You know, they've got it right downtown in Milwaukee. Okay. They, from what I can tell, are the most well bankrolled tribe, you know, the Ho-Chunk. Oh, yeah, I've heard of them who. Have a casino near The Dells. You know, that matters in terms of your political power. Absolutely. And it it sort of rivals what we're talking about with Prairie Island and the Shakopee men to walk it in here. Right. Well, I think dynamics. And to bring it back to medical cannabis. Red Lake Nation went live with, cannabis August 1st, 2023. They had their shops were ready. They were ready because they had an existing medical cannabis program, because they were able to, well, they're they're more sovereign in their, their, what's the right word? The public law 280 issue. It does not impact them. That's right. And there is a tribe in Wisconsin who is in a similar position. We'll see if they launch something. I mean, most tribal nations. Yeah. Wait for an underlying either medical program. Or at least East program in the state. Because Wisconsin doesn't even have a medical program. Correct. The Eastern Band of Cherokee and North Carolina was one of the few tribes that said, screw it, we're just going to legalize everything. Even though North Carolina had no legal anything. But like a plenty of THC, a hemp flower running around, what are they used? That could be. But their tribal dispensary has been doing very well. And are they operating to the public? Oh, yeah. Wow. I think there is a behind the scenes story in terms of what that tribe worked out with the North Carolina officials before they opened their doors. Okay. Because, maybe there's nothing in writing, but there's certainly some sort of agreement there. Oh man, what a place, what a place. America. America, what a place. The what's that nice town in North Carolina that's, very. Hipster. Asheville. Asheville. Asheville. Dating back to 20, 2020, 2021, they had a large CBD flower, hemp seed. So like and Rod Kight’s out there. I think one of the Oh, yeah. Cannabis attorneys. Okay. Yeah. I hear he is pushing the envelope. Who do you. You know, you've been in this industry a long time. Who do you who do you still talk to? Who? Who do you consider your peer? And somebody you bounce ideas off outside of the center? You outside of the center. I suppose now you're insulated, but. I am, you know, I still talk to my colleagues here. We have a nice group of cannabis lawyers here. You do. Have multiple Vicente. Oh, I'm. I'm talking about. Oh, colleagues. Yes. Yes, of. Course. But, I mean, Yeah, I get most of my information from Vicente. Those folks, they got their fingers on the pulse of everything. And Yeah, it's enough for me to just keep track of Minnesota. When I have questions about other markets. I just ask those folks. And how did this and they get started? Well, Brian Vicente and many other folks who are still with the firm, launched the Colorado legalization measure in 2012. Okay. And then suddenly they were the folks who knew cannabis. And, they got the clients, and they just slowly grew from that. And into other markets. And so we have, headquarters in Denver, a big office in Boston, and then, okay, satellite offices like mine kind of scattered throughout the country. Sure. We just opened a Portland office. Oh, wow. But it's been fantastic in terms of the historical knowledge of that firm. You know, these licensing issues. It's the first time I've worked in an adult use market. Yeah, but it's not the Vicente’s first time. Right? So, yeah, I rely heavily on them and their expertise is, you know, navigating all these very confusing statutes and regulations. Right. Right. Absolutely. Looking ahead to the legislative session in 2026, like, what's your what's your gut, what's your pulse? How much movement do you think we can really affect change. And I was just at, Ryan Winkler is running again. Oh, yeah. And I was at a mixer, and, it was talking to other lobbyists and saying how I'm going to feel kind of guilty. I'm lobbying on a couple of issues. Okay. Small issues, but I'm going to feel guilty walking in there and asking about cannabis because of what's going on in our world, because of what's happened. Over the last year. We've been in the news for over a month. I mean, well, not just that, but Melissa Hortman was killed, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And now you're asking the legislature to come back and try to work together with with that, with the ICE invasion. Emotions, I'm sure are gonna be running high. Right. But, you know, we'll see what we can do on a cannabis bill. I know that I met with, What was a plus? The beer guys are fired up. Yeah. I mean, there's certainly will be a push on the lower potency side. I don't know what that will look like, necessarily. But the the Office of Cannabis Management. Yeah. Let's talk about that. They gave me a sneak peek and I don't know if I can reveal this of what will be in their bill. Okay. And a lot of it makes a ton of sense. You know I feel like we are reaching a, a balance that they're pushing for stuff that the industry wants. You know, it doesn't feel like it's, a battle anymore. Feels like we're working together. And maybe people would disagree with me, but that's the feeling I have. Towards the end of last year, I started to get that feeling too, that there was a little less where were going in the wrong direction. Like, we're we're still battling each other versus like, hey, let's pave this road. My working relationship as has become much better. I don't see them, thankfully. Yeah. And and I think they have found their footing there. Yes. Great. I mean, I trust your opinion there. And I also, you know, my feel is like sometime in November, December it it felt like some of the meetings they were having started to make more sense. I do think, you know, with the, the House, with the House, Senate and government, governor majority, I do think the Democrats ran a little wild with what they thought they could accomplish versus what's actually happening with the brand new agency. Right. You can't you can create the laws, but implementing them is a different group. So I, I, I speaking for the social equity folks that have decided not to pursue their license fully. I do think they were I think there was a level of overpromise and lack of support that, that, that they, they thought they were going to get more help and. And it's, it's not working out. So the social equity thing I wonder is there still an advantage to be a social equity applicant. And if not why do we still have that label. Right. And why are you hands you know tying their hands in terms of the amount of investments they can. Yeah I, I, I'm going to take a run at that. Okay. And I think I'll have the support of OCM. Frankly, I think I have the support of Jess Jackson, on the OCM. Sure. Director. The Minority Cannabis Business Association last year had an event in North Minneapolis, and their leaders from DC told OCM. And OCM to their credit, had like 20 people there to lift these social equity restraints. Right? That is it's paternalistic. It's unfair. Yeah. It's one thing for me to say it, but to hear from them. Yeah. That's nice. Means something, right? And I think most people recognize there's no real advantage anymore to being a social equity applicant. So why have these restraints? Yeah. Yeah. Ultimately, when the lottery got moved, the they lost the runway and, I mean, a lot of it was early start. Yeah. Plants in the ground in the beginning of the month and beginning of the year versus the end of the year. So, yeah, we don't have to dig. That was particularly frustrating because I lobbied for that early cultivation thing. And then it went poof. Okay. I think one thing I got wrong about you that I as I did more research like the you weren't representing the lady from Iowa. They are clients. We did not handle the litigation, the. Litigation side of it. Right. But I, I do believe that if you're going to put a bad guy on a poster, she's one of the people you could put on a poster regarding the the delay. And I know you don't care to comment on that, but like, I. I would just say, like one thing I'll say on this is they didn't want to cancel the lottery. Sure. I don't know why the lottery was canceled. That's fair. Yeah. Because they had that ability. Yeah. I mean, talk about jungle gym. Like legal gymnastics. To stay. To stay the lottery. Yeah. That was probably rock bottom. That was. That was terrible. Yeah. Everybody was like. Yeah, I know. Yeah. So, optimistically, culturally, I'll say this, I like and I'm not an operator, so I can understand if I get some flack for this. I like the cultural opportunity to better get to know tribal organizations and tribal businesses and create less segregation and, have more of a homogenous cannabis culture where it's not just casinos and, and alcohol that the that the tribes are representing. Because I'm not a gambler and I'm not a big drinker, so I don't have a huge reason to go out to Treasure Island, for example. But I do believe that cannabis as a cannabis as a plant can bring people together. And I do believe that, tribal businesses, tribal organizations like the opportunity for us to better understand each other and to not be so segregated in a state that ultimately suffers from a lot of segregation, like I am. I, I realize that it's an unfair advantage depending on how you look at it, but the tribes also see themselves as social equity businesses to some degree. And so I'm I understand the roll out is is slow, but I'm optimistic about the overall homogenous cannabis culture that we have, because you can't opt out of, of a dispensary in your city. Yes. You can make it very difficult. Yeah. And I will say yes, you can't technically opt out, but we've seen a lot of local governments make it really difficult. Yeah. Can we talk about that a little bit? Can you pick on without naming names like the City counties ordinances, things like that? I mean, a lot of these communities are resentful that they can't opt out. And I think they know that these new entrepreneurs don't have a ton of cash. Yeah. To fight them. Right. Even if they make the wrong decision and that they'll probably go to the next community and just open there. And that's been a successful strategy. Okay. It's been difficult because I will advise my clients. I'll say yes, what they're doing is wrong. Yeah. But what are you going to do about it? I mean, it's very, very difficult to sue the government. Sure. Even when they. Yeah. As we're seeing. Yeah. For sure. Currently. Right. Even what, when what they're doing is wrong. Wrong? Absolutely. Fundamentally wrong. It's expensive. I had a partner when I was a baby lawyer. He would say, how much justice can you afford? And when I first heard that, it makes you uncomfortable. But it's kind of true. Wow. Right. Right. Unfortunately. That makes sense. The, Are there any counties? Cities? Hopkins comes to mind. This has always been pot friendly. That, like you are seeing like are going to be stand out on the opposite side of the spectrum that you would care to highlight or. In terms of welcoming them? I mean Minneapolis and Saint Paul are choosing not to limit dispensary. Sure. There's one going in across the street from my house. They've said that's an equity play. I personally think that's a bad idea. Okay. I told them that, but it's not up to me. Yeah. Who is it up to? I suppose? I mean, I don't know where that decision was made. This council, I suppose? Yeah. But that hasn't worked in other places, you know. Right. Yes. I see that there's a maybe a sense of fairness and letting everybody in. But how are they all going to succeed? How are there going to be eight dispensaries in Uptown between Hennepin and Lyndale Is that equity? I don't know. I mean. It's risk. I just, I, I was in Denver when they had more dispensaries than Starbucks, and it just doesn't work because then you have diversion problems, right? You got to find a way to make ends meet. Yeah. So then how do you pedal? How do you pedal to pay the bill? Right. Yeah. I mean, fundamentally, people are going to drink more Starbucks than they're going to consume flour. Yeah, that's just how we are as a society. We'll see. You know, this is all the experiment. Every state needs to figure it out on their own. And, we will have a winding path, as we already have. Aren’t we setting up towards having about as many dispensaries as McDonalds’? I remember that statistic a couple of years. I don't know, I mean, again, like how and there's no way to know there are so many of these micro licenses floating around right now. Yeah. How many of them are going to actually get operationalized? And people ask me is OCM going to issue more licenses? Right. And I think they're probably waiting to see how many micro’s get operationalized. So there's the 18, 18 month runway. Correct. And then. They wouldn't reevaluate until, till that date is, matures until that timeline matures. And then. Okay. Yeah. Here's the trick. 18 month runway from preliminary approval. So a lot of those folks are in the qualified applicants stage where there is no clock ticking at this moment. You can just hang out there forever. Oh, okay. But there may be legislation coming that might change that. What is what is the initiator that starts the clock? So after you submit background check your labor peace agreement, then you move into preliminary approval stage and then you hit the 18 month clock. But even with the 18 month clock, you can get another six month extension, maybe another one. Oh, you could. At this point you can. You can ask for it. You can have no guarantee. Right. I suspect you're going to get it. Yeah. Yeah. Is there anything else you want to touch on or talk about when it comes to Minnesota cannabis. I don't know. I just really, really hope we I know I already said this, but I really hope we preserve our intoxicating hemp beverage market because I just feel like that is a social experiment that has worked. And yeah, it'd be a shame. Absolutely. I mean, we're we're proponents of it, for sure. We're launching a new beverage in February this month, with Earl Giles. And, you know, the McConnell language was so wrong that it's affecting seeds. Yeah. Gummies, flower, drinks. It's even affecting hemp textiles from what I learned. Yes. So I've also heard rumblings that he's even trying to correct that language because it's affecting the industrial side of hemp. Yeah. And I joke hemp is a four letter word. You know, weed is a four letter word. Like. With with Senator Klobuchar and and Representative Craig and and with the proponents that we have at the at the Washington at the federal level. Like I do believe that the Minnesota model is landing to some degree. But how much appetite is there for for change? Well, it's interesting. The bill that was introduced to fix the McConnell bill out of Oregon. Yeah, essentially is the Minnesota edible cannabinoid product. That's the run lines, bill. Yeah. Yes. You know. Yeah. What better compliment than that? Yeah. Yes, we got it right. Thank you. Please adopt it nationally. Yes. Yeah. Wisconsin should do that. I mean, or you. Maybe you're tracking this. Maybe you're not. Are there are there horror stories from the 25 milligram dosage, like. Is there is there I am there being casualties? No. Oh, I'm sorry to laugh, but. Yeah. Cannot die from cannabis. Right. You can get really sick and feel terrible. Well, I mean, like DUI or. I'm. Ior like DWI’. I haven't heard of you guys. You know, even, you know, I talk about things that make me uncomfortable, like, when we are allowing folks to drink hemp, intoxicating hemp beverages at bars, I thought, Jesus, is somebody going to wrap their car around a tree? It's been 3 or 4 years. Yeah. Yeah. I haven't heard a thing. And if something would have came out, it would have made the news. Yeah. Actually, I'm sure things are happening, but not the terrible things that I was afraid of. Yeah. We're behaving ourselves. Well, there's a level of consciousness that kicks in like it's not the same thing. I talk about the the trail magic THC tap room. That was a pop up THC beverage event at the end of 22. And we- Canna MN Hosted a happy hour that night at the tap room and the biggest thing that stood out to me is hour by hour the room didn't get louder. Because it's not the same as alcohol. You're not you're not having to scream and yell at it. There's a level of of feelings in consciousness and it's plant based itself. You know so I ask that just because, you know, 25mg is a more significant to Austin than ten milligrams. Yeah. I for some, I. Had not heard the horror stories since. I mean, they don't exist. Probably not, but I did. I mean, there was the Delta eight, like kids from Iowa. I mean, they were, man. I mean, think of how many current events you've, you've seen and been a part of. TThe Loveless. Yeah. Well. The Lanesborough, like me, you've seen a lot and you've seen a lot of stuff come through your. I have, Yeah. And I'm thinking of the Death by Gummies crew. Yeah. Like, maybe don't. If you're going to sell 200 milligram gummies, maybe don't call your business Death by gummies. It’s a wild mame. Yeah, that was not helpful. Did they get. Charged? I think so. I kind of lost track of what happened. Yeah, that was a while ago. Yeah. Things move. So- you know, we've got a relationship with Dutchie, and Gus from Dutchie comes on the show sometimes, and, like, he likes to say cannabis years or dog years. Oh,God... Do you agree? Do you think there's a level of, like, the fast paced. Absolutely! Every day is a journey. It's crazy. Yeah. Honestly, if you're not ready to change all the time, like, this is not the space for you. Right. Especially. Yeah. Especially in the in the years of, from 2019 to current day, how much how many different products we've seen and different rules. And I mean, there are folks like having a great experience. It unfortunately it's not necessarily like it's starting to be the mom and pops that we knew that are transitioning into cultivation and things like that, but like the breweries really were able to capitalize certain breweries with the right culture or the right production levels. And then the, the tribes and like, are you paying attention to the to the medical companies at all? Yeah. I think there will be controversy this session as they discuss this macro license. Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, among the, like, Aussie, licensed community. I haven't heard lots of opposition to that. Are you hearing anything different? I mean, I'm hearing like I'm hearing that the tribes aren't, are not in favor of, of right of that. That's what I have heard. But I'm a little surprised the broader community is not objecting. I mean. You've got the folks that are vocal in the past have got their heads heads down building out micro business. Yeah. But that's why we. Yeah, it's a legislative process. Everyone have a chance to weigh in on this? Yes. Right. And I hope it's respected. And and we've done such a good job of coming together for conference, or for, testimonies and things like that. And that we just have to keep doing our best. Yeah. I mean, it's a great community to be a part of. You've been. Yeah, they kept at it from the beginning. And. Yeah. It's a pleasure to see you. Thank you. I still remember the first night I met you at Warehouse Winery. Yeah. In this, it was very. That might become, a cannabis facility. Wouldn't surprise me. Yeah. I know those guys are still around. Well, maybe under new management. Okay. So. Okay. Jason, it was great to see you. Thanks for coming on the show. Thank you. All right. We'll see you next time on the Canna Connect show.