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Episode 11 | Building the Plane While Flying It | Carol Moss on Minnesota Cannabis Law
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Minnesota cannabis is still being shaped in real time and few people are closer to that process than Carol Moss.
In this episode of the Canna Connect Show, Stephen Eigenmann sits down with Carol from Hellmuth & Johnson to talk about what it really means to practice law in a brand new industry.
From interpreting unclear statutes to helping clients navigate risk without a clear roadmap, Carol shares the realities behind the work. As she explains, there is no scoreboard until enforcement happens and that creates a constant balancing act for both attorneys and operators.
The conversation also breaks down a major recent win where her team challenged an OCM policy that attempted to restrict direct shipping of hemp products. The outcome reinforced an important idea that has been true since the early days of hemp in Minnesota: access matters, and so does protecting in-state businesses.
This episode covers:
• The challenges of practicing cannabis law in Minnesota
• How legal interpretation shapes the industry
• The story behind the OCM shipping case
• Why collaboration across operators and attorneys matters
• The importance of rural access and local economies
• What the future of Minnesota cannabis could look like
At its core, this is a story about people building something new together. From early community meetups to courtroom decisions, every step is shaping what comes next.
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The thoughts, views, and opinions expressed on the Canna Connect Show belong solely to the individuals and do not reflect those of Canaconnect and its affiliates, sponsors, or partners. Canakonnect does not promote or facilitate any activity that violates state or federal regulations. Everything you hear here is strictly for educational and entertainment purposes. It is not legal advice. It is not financial guidance, and it's definitely not medical direction. Seriously, don't take our word for it. Even if someone on the mic sounds like they know what they're talking about, and they're probably crazy smart too. Regardless of how legit our guests may be, you should always do your own homework, consult with your attorney, and understand the risk you're taking before you do anything when it comes to cannabis. Our intention is to keep it real. If you've got a problem with anything we've said, take us to court.
SPEAKER_01Carol Moss. Carol like Christmas, Moss like Randy. Carol will be joining the show today. Uh 1215. She's great. We're gonna talk about how she helped uh push back against the OCM and allow for hemp beverages to be shipped in the mail as they should. Is it interesting being a lawyer in the Minnesota cannabis industry in 2026?
SPEAKER_02It's actually really exhausting.
SPEAKER_01It's exhausting. It's ex- It's exhausting. And you yeah, and you're sort of you sort of have to do it because there's, yes, there's other lawyers out there, but people come to you, the buck stops with Helmut and Johnson.
SPEAKER_02And, you know, we're talking about state law, we're talking about federal law, we're talking about agency, local law, and everything is always changing. Okay. And it the other thing is really hard is that, you know, we're dealing with the new statute, we're dealing with the new agency. Right. And so I feel like we're building the plane as we are as we're flying it, right? And so when a client comes to me with an issue, yeah, you know, I say to them, okay, well, this is how I interpret the statute, this is how I interpret the regulatory rules, this is how I interpret X, Y, and Z. Yeah. But until somebody does it and OCM thumbs up or thumbs down, I don't know how OCM will respond to things.
SPEAKER_01So interpretation, and then is the next is the on the operator side, is it adherence to the to the law?
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01But there's no scoreboard until a penalty is called.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Or somebody does it and then gets, you know, the hands slapped. And then there's a reference to and then finally, you know, because lawyers, you know, what we do is we look at other case law, we look at other, you know, but suppress it. We just don't have that in cannabis and Minnesota. So I've had to look at other states. Okay, how did other states do these type of contracts? Um, but until, you know, OS OCM actually interprets they I don't know how they're gonna interpret things.
SPEAKER_01How does Helmuth Johnson take on a new industry? Because there are just a bunch of new industries popping up on online that Helmuth Johnson is serving. Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_02Well, so we're a full service law firm and I'm a litigator. So I litig was in court all the time in state and federal courts.
SPEAKER_01Also exhausting.
SPEAKER_02Well, I went into cannabis because I knew that if I stayed in litigation, I was like gonna die of a heart attack. Like it is stressful, right? Yeah, so I just like wanted this chance, and like, you know, to be in this new industry is super interesting for a lawyer, you know, the legal gymnastics. And then, you know, the just everything, the timing was great. You know, 2022, the Lodos. Remember the stadium bar where we used to have your parties?
SPEAKER_01Who were some of your first Lodos hemp customers, accounts, clients?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I mean, really, I met a lot of people at your party at stadium. Like I met Stephanie there.
SPEAKER_01You met her at the bar. Yeah. I remember the table you and your husband were at.
SPEAKER_02And then I met Jamie there. Jamie's husband was that Aquaman for the Halloween party.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes. Oh, they were so good. They still are. Uh, Veronica, that was the first time I met Veronica. She showed up with a bunch of samples. Pretty sota.
SPEAKER_02Jamie, yeah, we met Jamie there for the first time. Bridget there for the first time.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Yes. And you know, okay, so last night um there was a dinner at Red Rabbit. There was a app, there was a function at the basement bar. So the basement bar to Red Rabbit. Well, what's in between? Stadium bar and grill. Four years later, five years later.
SPEAKER_02Isn't that awesome? Yeah. For forcing my husband to come with me because I need no books.
SPEAKER_01Only time I've met your ugly mission. I love that. And and Yeah, I mean, I mean, that's where I get that's that's where my reference from I met John from Edwin's Edibles there. He was there, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And the High North guys, they had just like they were just coming out.
SPEAKER_01North Canaco at the time. Yes. Oh, uh you know, we'll have to look at what date that was. So that was the Halloween party.
SPEAKER_02It was the Halloween party.
SPEAKER_01Right. So it was October of 21. Yes. Wow. And and now we're in 26, so we're coming up on five years of no age.
SPEAKER_02Isn't that amazing? Like, it feels like it was like 20 years ago. Yeah. It's only five years ago, but it feels like that was like decades ago.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so so we are nearing the end of that era of being able to operate on 172 as it relates to liquor license, good to go. Samples, gummies, bevs, no worries, as long as they're compliant. As of March 31st, the window will close. End of an era is upon us.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you're right. It is. That was like we got excited about. I remember when when the edibles thing got, you know, through the house, or through the sure. Yes, Curtis from Curtis Hannah sent me a text message like at 11 o'clock. And he's like, Carol, we did it. It worked. And I was like, it did.
SPEAKER_01Wow. And that was 22. That would have been legislative session of 2022.
SPEAKER_02Because then July 1st, 22 is when people started manufacturing them. And I remember telling people, we're gonna get edibles. And they're like, no, no, no. I'm like, yes, you're gonna be able to get edibles. And nobody believed me.
SPEAKER_01Right. And but from an interpretation standpoint, having a good lawyer is so important because as of the 2018 Farm Bill, if you could have maneuvered and done the gymnastics and been the Simone Biles of uh legal ham cannabis, you would have understood you could technically have started as of the 2018 farm bill, but it took it it doesn't happen all at once. No, it like you were mentioning, it's okay, these per these people are interpreting it this way, and now they're gonna move this way. Yes. And we're we're manufacturing in Minnesota, but we're getting cease and desists. But our friends are manufacturing in Wisconsin and they they're getting away with it. Okay, we need to take a step towards it.
SPEAKER_02That's exactly how it works. Like people try things and it doesn't work, or it does work. You're like, okay, but like I'll have a client call me and they'll be like, Carol, you told me X, Y, and Z. Yeah, but I talked to so and so, and they say it's Y one, two, three. And I'm like, it's really hard because I'm like, hey, all I could do is give you my interpretation, you know, and this is why I think this. Like, I don't just give people my opinion, like, yes, you could do that. Like, I explain to them why I think they can do that.
SPEAKER_01Right. Um, and a lawyer is not your mom.
SPEAKER_02No, I mean, sometimes I see people online and I'm like, should I call them?
SPEAKER_01And the answer is usually no.
SPEAKER_02No, I'm like, you know what? I just let them be, yeah, let them be. But sometimes it's really hard because like I feel like emotionally invested in this industry. Like we've been around working for it. Like I want it to succeed. And so a lot of times I like try to you know work with OCM or work with legislators on things like maybe aren't client specific, okay, but industry broader goals. Yeah. So, you know, I do a lot of work. I don't I'm not a lobbyist, but like I do a lot of work to try to help the industry as a whole rather than just well, I mean, I help my clients too, and in the end it helps my clients.
SPEAKER_01It's communication with stakeholders.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And you're you're I I don't want to brush over this.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01They listen to you because of your pedigree, because of your tenure, because of your work, understanding what they're up to. I hope that's true. What they're up to. Well, not everyone, no, sure, you can call the OCM, but the conversations that I assume you're having to some degree come with a certain amount of respect on both sides.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yes.
SPEAKER_01Now it gets challenging when they interpret things quite differently than the status quo. Yeah. And whether whether you like it or not, like I think of PG thir I think of Hemp as PG 13, and I think of AU as R-rated movies. And I think you shouldn't the movie, the the ticket taker is gonna make sure that you're of age. Yep. Now I get that it's not a perfect analogy, but what I'm getting to is with the OCM and where they were coming at shipping, yeah, which I look at it from a business to consumer standpoint. Many operators on the gummy and uh Lodo site look at it from a business to business. I need to supply my customers, not my end users, but my customers, and it's not affordable for me to deliver these products individually.
SPEAKER_02But also think about it as an access issue, right? One of the things that OCM came back to justify their position in that case was we're gonna be licensing delivery people. Yeah. But if you are in the country, if you're a rural, nobody's gonna go out to you. Nobody's gonna bring you anything out there. And what are they gonna do if they can't buy directly from a Minnesota business? They're gonna buy from an out of state business. And that for that business is gonna ship in. And it's almost just like in 21. Yeah, exactly. Because that's what happened when and when the Department of A, remember in 21, they were they're cutting, they were cutting down on Minnesota businesses, and all the out of state was just raking it in. And that was one of the reasons that we went to the legislators and, like, hey, yeah, this isn't fair, and that's how we got the low dose thing. And that and we're at risk of that happening again. Yes, if because people want act, people like these products.
SPEAKER_01Yes, they think it fits their lifestyle, it fits their lifestyle.
SPEAKER_02How many times people say they replace alcohol and it helps them sleep? You know, all sorts of different things, in addition to they're just bun.
SPEAKER_01Right?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Add some CBG to it, and you're in a good time. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So, you know, it was really important that we push back on that issue.
SPEAKER_01And it was a team effort.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It it was multiple hemp brands for one. And let's give credit to Laley.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Laley, it was Laley came to me with the idea. She did a ton of work on it. I mean, it it was a big issue for not just the the parties of the lawsuit, but just across the state. Yeah. And we brought, you know, more than one party. We could have just gone forward with Crested River, for example. But we wanted to demonstrate that this was an industry issue. Yes. We didn't want one business to have a target on their back. Yes.
SPEAKER_01Um, and so I was reaching out to Robidoo every three to five weeks, being like, hey, is there anything happening? Is there anything new? Because, you know, Matt and his company, Rain Labs, they were on, they were a part of the petition. And I liked how there was uh smaller, medium, medium, larger, uh, you know, I I view balance as a larger brand. Uh so kudos to you and kudos to everyone involved. What did it take from the Helmuth and Johnson side to approach the what's the word, what's the word here? Because it's a petition. Yeah. But what did you what concerns did you have to raise to the administrative judge?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um, so this that's a great question. So what happened was OCM issued an FAQ, said no more shipping directly to client, to, to customers. And that was a huge shift from what has been happening for years, right? Yeah. People have been doing it for years. And the reason why they gave this, they they gave this instruction or this FAQ is because you have to check if somebody's 21 and over, and you can't sell to somebody visibly intoxicated. That's been the law since 22. That is not nothing new.
SPEAKER_01That's not new. Okay.
SPEAKER_02And so we went to them and we said, like, you are doing you are creating a regulatory rule by having this FAQ. I don't know if you were very involved in like the rulemaking process a couple of years ago, but there's a very specific process that regulatory agencies need to go through for a rule to have the force of law.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02But if you don't go through that, then it's not enforceable. So our petition was that OCM, this it's an FAQ, but really in practice, it's a regulatory rule, and they didn't go through their proper process, and therefore it's unenforceable. That was the position of Dick.
SPEAKER_01Great, great.
SPEAKER_02Um are we recording?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I didn't know that.
SPEAKER_01Josh, are you are you here?
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01Shout out to Open Window Production, Josh McGrain, Henry Schneider, holding this down. If you need help in the uh video and audio space, reach out to Open Window. They're out of Oakdale. Although on Google Maps it still comes up as St. Paul. There we go. Um, you're not doing this alone. Yeah. Let's talk about how the Helmuth and Johnson team has grown and and who who's who's who's part of the team.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so um, you know, the one thing I just want to say about that case is that in through all of this process, I have tried to maintain a cooperative, collaborative relationship with OCM, right? Because if I have a good relationship with OCM, that's helpful to my clients. Um and so it was, you know, look, I was nervous about bringing this because it's so it was an adversarial process, right? We were suing OCM. But I think like it was important because it's a new agency and it's still learning the ropes on how to act. And so it was really important, even though it was taken away from that collaborative approach that I've taken from OCM.
SPEAKER_01If not you, at some point they were gonna deal with this. Yes. And uh often it comes up, you know, it's not personal, it's business. You're representing clients that are severely affected by this potential uh change.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, and then like our team at Hellmy, so it has grown so much. So we're full service law firm, so you know, this is pretty much all I do. I do litigate still, but Nicole Rash is my colleague, she does cannabis full-time too. Cool, but we also like pull in from other departments, yeah. Like I have a colleague Darby who's in our real estate, and she's like fantastic and she's done enough cannabis clients that she knows it.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02Um, and then for the lawsuit against OCM, I brought in my my colleague Stephen Forrest. So Steven came to Helmut right from the attorney general's office. Really? So he his job for years was the guy that we were against. So I really like tapped into him. Um, he knew knows the judges, he knows you know, the process, he so he did a lot of the writing and he argued the case. Right. Um, so having him in our firm has just been like huge because this is going to happen again. It is. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Now, kind of a random question, but when when wins like this happen, do other law firms, colleagues, counterparts in the industry, do they do they ever reach out and say yeah, kudos or thank you?
SPEAKER_02Yes, they I get that. Also, um, you know, people will people call me like, hey, can I have a copy of that order? Like, that's a good win. You know, I think I'm gonna use this win in a different circumstance.
SPEAKER_01Okay, great.
SPEAKER_02So it is like a very collaborative industry because there's not very many Canvas lawyers in Minnesota.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02It's um we all try to share information.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's good. That's good to hear. I'm I'm happy to hear that. Um, let's just quick check for time. Okay, so if folks want to reach out to Helmuth and Johnson, get in touch with you and the team. Yeah. What where's the best place to send them?
SPEAKER_02That just to our website or um c moss. Carol like Christmas, moss like random moss.
SPEAKER_01CMoss at hjlaw.com.
SPEAKER_02Hjlawfirm.com. Carol like Christmas, Moss like Random Moss.
SPEAKER_01We'll put that right here. That's CMoss at hjlawfirm.com. Just give you a little more work. Thanks, thanks, thanks, Dan. Um and you and you you're right on the highway. I I spot you guys all the time off every 169. Uh, you know, appreciate all the work you've done over the years from the from showing up to the events to hosting the Minnesota Hemp Cooperative at your building to growing and and doing so much more. How excited are you for 2026? And you know, where are your realities at?
SPEAKER_02Um, I'm super excited with 26. I I know that the rollout has been frustrating for um and I've not been happy on certain parts. Yeah, but we are, I just try to remind people that we're not building for today, we're building for years down the road. And I want this industry to be around after my grandkids are dead.
SPEAKER_01Generations. Right.
SPEAKER_02And so I just am really excited that we are growing, that the industry will catch up, the supply will catch up. Yes. And I think we're gonna have a very successful market. People from all the different states, they they can't believe it when they come to Minnesota.
SPEAKER_01They really like what we have going on, and and and they're hardly here yet. Yes, right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, would love to catch up again in the in the future. Maybe Nikan, Canacon. The first half of the year it's dominated by these national conferences. Second half of the year, we're gonna get out into the uh dim the Bemidji's, the Moorheads, the Brainerds. We're gonna we're gonna get back to our roots with the mini expos and showcases and and really start touching the folks that are out in those communities where a lot of these licenses are held. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02No, I think it's super exciting, and I think like there's a lot of I have clients out in the rural section that really feel passionate about what they're doing and bringing access to their community. And so it'd be just like I just talked to these people and they've been waiting for years, and they're just we're finally gonna see, you know, the fruits of their labor, and it's just awesome.
SPEAKER_01To go below ground to above ground, to go from underground market to let from legacy to legitimacy. That's exciting.
SPEAKER_02It is really exciting.
SPEAKER_01So thank you for being here. Thank you for your support. That's Carol Moss with Helmuth and Johnson. Reach out if you need anything. She's a pro and her team is making progress happen. Thank you for fighting for hemp industry. Thank you. All right. We'll see you next time on the Can of Connect Show.
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