Episode 35 | Tanner Berris Returns: The Past, Present & Future of Minnesota Cannabis

What has changed in Minnesota cannabis over the past year?

In this episode of The Canna Connect Show, Stephen Eigenmann reconnects with longtime friend, former co-host, and Minnesota cannabis historian Tanner Berris for their first recorded conversation together in nearly a year.

The discussion explores how Minnesota's cannabis industry has evolved since legalization, including hemp beverages, licensing, compliance, home grow rights, cannabis advocacy, and the role of the Office of Cannabis Management.

Drawing on years of experience covering Minnesota cannabis policy and culture, Tanner shares his perspective on where the industry stands today and the challenges that still lie ahead.

Topics include:

• Minnesota cannabis history and legalization
• Hemp beverages and federal policy
• Home grow rights and advocacy
• OCM regulations and compliance
• Cannabis licensing and market development
• Community building and cannabis culture
• The future of Minnesota's cannabis industry

For listeners who have followed Minnesota cannabis over the past several years, this episode serves as both a reflection on how far the industry has come and a conversation about what comes next.

Guest: Tanner Berris
Follow Tanner's Substack: https://tannerberris.substack.com/

The Canna Connect Show highlights the entrepreneurs, advocates, policymakers, and community leaders helping shape Minnesota cannabis from the ground up.

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Transcript

Intro & Disclaimer

SPEAKER_00 0:01

The thoughts, views, and opinions expressed on the CannaConnect show belong solely to the individuals and do not reflect those of Canaconnect and its affiliates, sponsors, or partners. CannaConnect does not promote or facilitate any activity that violates state or federal regulations. Everything you hear here is strictly for educational and entertainment purposes. It is not legal advice. It is not financial guidance, and it's definitely not medical direction. Seriously, don't take our word for it. Even if someone on the mic sounds like they know what they're talking about, and they're probably crazy smart too. Regardless of how legit our guests may be, you should always do your own homework, consult with your attorney, and understand the risk you're taking before you do anything when it comes to cannabis. Our intention is to keep it real. If you've got a problem with anything we've said, take us to court.

Tanner Berris Returns to The Canna Connect Show

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Thanks for having me. And we're back. Steven Eigenman and Tanner Barris live on the Canon Connect Show. Thanks to everybody watching on YouTube. We are doing this for the first

One Year Later: What’s Changed in Minnesota Cannabis?

SPEAKER_01 1:05

time in like a year. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And um, like as far as what's going on right now, you just got back from Moorhead. Yep. The Minnesota Frost are in the playoffs. Oh, yeah. It's like we never left.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

I know. It's it's uh pretty similar to when we sort of signed off at the end of the last season of Northern Lights Podcast. Um it it's uh I would say the cannabis industry is in a very different place. But in terms of uh everything else in Minnesota, yeah, it's uh history of rhymes, that's for sure. History of rhymes. But yeah, no, thank you for having me. This is a an incredible studio. It was neat being escorted in and being shown to like a green room, and this is uh a cool step up.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

There's not nearly as much beer.

SPEAKER_02 1:43

Yeah, oh yeah, no, and uh you can't walk through the cases of it, but it's uh it's it's it's a neat uh neat party thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

No, they've got it open window productions, they do a great job. They're uh we're we're in St. Paul, you know, roughly. Yeah. And uh we found these guys, we were looking for a live stream crew to do some educational content that we did at the wilderness last summer. And Tommy found like three and called this one and they offered the best deal, and so like that's kind

Why Cannabis Education Still Matters

SPEAKER_01 2:15

of how we got started. And um, you know, in some ways I feel like I've outgrown the wilderness at this point, or the brand has outgrown the wilderness with education and I sort of struggle with the word education because it comes up with every brand or every business, like they want to provide education. I guess it's a way to get the conversation started, um, depending on what you're talking about. Yeah. But like doing education during the day on a Wednesday or Thursday, or doing education on like a Monday night, like not everyone's gonna be able to make it to your educational event.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

Oh yeah, don't I know? Yeah, very much so. Yeah, and I I agree with you where like I think back to the early days of hemp where people were just excited to have products online. You know, you had your CBD topicals, you had your, you know, maybe Delta VIII products early days. And education wasn't really part of the conversation, I think, as much. And then I think through necessity, it really became I would say, like the essence of the Minnesota cannabis culture is like you have to educate, you have to be on the advocacy side, you have to sort of be out there telling people here's what it is that we have. And uh um, but yeah, it's uh uh it's a bit more challenging, uh, I would say, when uh the world of cannabis education is filled with everyone as an expert.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

And but not to slow your roll there, the one of the harder parts I think was like the limitations with medical cannabis with respect to education and knowing that medical cannabis came before CBD and Delta VIII and Delta 10. Very much so. Yeah. RIPHC. Hey everybody, Steven with Canaconnect. Taking a quick minute to shout out today's sponsor, CEE, that is the Center for Energy and Environment. If you're not familiar with CEE, they're your one-stop shop for all lighting rebates. If you are in XL Energy Territory and you're a micro business, CEE is somebody that you need to talk to. Give Brad a call, give Tony a call, go online, one-stop shop, LED lighting rebates. They'll help take care of up to 60% of the cost associated with your grow and your build out with the lighting. Uh, really nice people, great people to work with, huge sponsors of Canaconnect, and uh give them a shout. That's CEE, Center for Energy and Environment. When

Medical Cannabis, Advocacy & Minnesota’s Early Cannabis Movement

SPEAKER_01 4:50

you talk about advocacy, and I bring up medical marijuana, the like we had we had Meme Machine Farms on last year to to chat, and like that's where he got his start. And many, many folks got their start around medical cannabis and advocating for medical cannabis or or better access to medical cannabis. I just think like in some ways we were doomed from the beginning with how that or and that's short, maybe short-sighted for me to say, but like so niche in in who was really advocating for better medical cannabis access.

SPEAKER_03 5:28

And yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

And now we have flour. And since you and I have been sitting down and talking to people, like we've had flour, it came online during the the last couple of years, but almost like too late.

SPEAKER_02 5:42

Yeah. No, I I don't disagree with you. And I think what we've seen is our industry really divided by label. You talk about medical cannabis, I I think hemp, I I think uh, you know, the adult use side, I think if you want to call it, we'll talk a little bit about scheduling later. But I I think our industry is being chopped up into these different components, and we're really gonna only find I think that next step of whatever that is, hopefully legalization, hopefully it's a step forward.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

Yeah. I mean, adult use alcohol. Nobody, nobody uses adult use. No. There's teen use alcohol. Yeah. It's not legal.

SPEAKER_02 6:18

I missed the days of medical alcohol. That was pretty sweet, you know. I wasn't there for it, but you know, I've I've heard good things. A true apothecary. Yeah. Exactly. And I I think that's a perfect example. Is uh there were times where we really had those labels. Minnesota, I think, is uh unique. Um my understanding is we're the only state in the country that still has the 3.2 uh restrictions around what alcohol can be sold at like gas stations. Uh Sunday beer. Yeah, exactly. All that jazz. Yeah. Um and I think cannabis will forever be something similar to that. But hopefully we can move quicker in the right direction. Before we see, I think the labels continue to really lead to some damage. I I think the

Hemp, Federal Regulation & The Future of THC Products

SPEAKER_02 7:00

pushback around hemp federally is going to be one of those examples where um yes, perhaps there was more widespread access to cannabis products than the Farm Bill intended. But I think we're seeing a step in the direction of prohibition instead of regulation. Well, we've seen that that just doesn't work. What does work is creating safe regulations like we have in Minnesota. You know, can you receive hemp products that are rich in THC in the mail? Uh yeah, for sure. Um are there safety regulations around that compared to other states? Yeah, way more so.

SPEAKER_01 7:34

Um It's harder to get it shipped now than it was two years ago.

SPEAKER_02 7:38

Yeah, yeah. And as an industry, I think that's the right direction. You you know, I I want there to be widespread access. We've talked about this on previous shows, previous uh everything, where uh uh there should be access. And uh gas station weed, I know people talk about it as like a negative, but I do want cannabis to be as accessible as it can be. And it is neat that people can buy, you know, cannabis beverages at at gas stations, at liquor stores, at things like that. And like without without there being that access, I don't think we would have had such advanced shifts in our understanding around cannabis in Minnesota.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

And Quick Trip wants it as well. Yeah. They do. So it seems like month, month over month, quarter over quarter, more and more mainstream convenience or retail grocery type outlets are bringing on hemp beverages, even though days go by and we're facing a ban at in six months. Totally. I I looked on polymarket.

SPEAKER_02 8:39

Unfortunately, there's not a bet for whether the farm bill language will change before November 13th, I think of the date. November 11th. Is it like wiki?

SPEAKER_01 8:48

Like how do you get something nominated onto Polymarket?

SPEAKER_02 8:50

I I I wish I knew. Because I would love to be making that bet because I there's so many people in our industry that I think are very optimistic that there will be a change. That that the bill that Clovishar has been pushing will make its way through. That um, you know, maybe Angie Craig, she's trying to get her name out a little bit more. Maybe she'll be pushing for hemp a bit more than she has in the past. Um Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

She's up, she has a race that she's up against. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:14

I I'm not as optimistic that we'll see that change. I think come November we're gonna see a radical shift in our industry that's gonna really change how cannabis is accessed. Um as of today, you can get high TC rich oil shipped across state lines as like a in-production product. I think that sort of goes away come November when the federal understanding around what hemp is is very clearly defined as not happening. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 9:42

Um I mean, it's it's like it's a movie with a lot of CGI and a lot of explosion and also a lot of gray area or under-the-table dealings because we're not robots. Like, yes, the bill will go into effect if the bill goes into effect November 12th,

What Happens if Hemp Rules Change?

SPEAKER_01 10:01

you don't lose your ability to do that. It just becomes illegal. And there's a difference between being illegal and being compliant.

SPEAKER_02 10:09

Absolutely. Well, and I think, yeah, let's not kid ourselves. We're an industry that was built by people who weren't following the law. Uh but how many stores will continue selling hemp products after November? I think a a a decent amount. Um even the the feds and some of their notings around the changes noted that they don't really have the regulatory capacity to be able to enforce this change in law. And so, you know, on paper they'll change it.

SPEAKER_01 10:37

I guess we'll see what it reminds me of the uh the city of St. Paul with the citations that they were considering and they didn't have the ability to enforce citations. So that anytime they're passing rules that they can't enforce, it's an overstep on individuals' rights. Yeah, very much so.

SPEAKER_02 10:54

Yeah, it's uh an interesting time to be in the cannabis industry, that's for sure. Uh how long have we been saying that? It's a while.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

We'll keep saying it. The You know, you touched on the different okay, I identify as a medical cannabis

Hemp Businesses Transitioning Into Adult-Use Cannabis

SPEAKER_01 11:10

per patient, I identify as an adult use or a recreational user, I identify as a low po a low, low potency or a hemp beverage consumer. Maybe since the last time you and I have chatted, the alcohol industry has warmed up to the need to create some viable path forward for yeah. But it's through this traditional three-tier system where the distributor really holds a lot of the power or it's a relationship and it's it's not OP-1 login cases of drinks. Store to store.

SPEAKER_02 11:46

Yeah, no, very much so. I think uh for a while we had a hemp industry that really you could be a small-scale producer, a small-scale retailer, and get into the industry with a pretty low bar regulatory lot.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

But that's the that craft versus industrial. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 12:03

Yeah, exactly. Where suddenly, and I think we're in a really unique period right now where if someone applied for an adult use license, they have 18 months to continue operating under their hemp license before that all sort of goes away. So we have a lot of people in Minnesota right now that aren't necessarily licensed as hemp manufacturers, and they aren't licensed as adult use manufacturers, but they're still able to legally produce products because they have a license that's under review. They're operating under the old rules and will continue to until their 18-month timeline expires. I I think we have a lot of people right now that met that bar of I got an application in, I got pre-approval, which that was a pretty low bar generally speaking.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

Yeah, I mean the stakes have been raised since.

SPEAKER_02 12:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I I think that next step of going from pre-approval to actually being licensed operating opened, those are two vastly different worlds. And so I think we'll see a lot of and I I think OP will get his license. I don't mean this to like knock on him, but I think we'll see a lot of people that operated in that small-scale craft. I can sort of just start a brand

Challenges Moving From Hemp to OCM Licensing

SPEAKER_02 13:10

out of nothing. Yeah. Really struggle to transition into that adult use market because, you know, that you you have to actually have the facility. You have to have everything that's required to be able to start that brand.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

Um so in a way, what we're talking about is like the jump between the statutes of like 172 versus chapter 342?

SPEAKER_02 13:31

Yes. Yeah, I believe, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:33

How what other instances of that are you aware of from a challenge's perspective of of operating as it was, the hemp s kind of operating under hemp rules and now uh having to move to, you know, fully regulated through the OCM uh cannabis. Like are there other challenges that you've noticed?

SPEAKER_02 13:53

Well, so I think it echoes of like the early days of hemp really coming online as being licensed in 2021. Um I I you know, Lupalin is a great example of they had the big the 50 milligram Smaze's what they were that all of a sudden overnight you can't sell that anymore in Minnesota. And so I think you had a lot of people that had to shift and adapt to that. I think this will be this will be similar.

SPEAKER_01 14:17

Um but there's like I ran into Opi at Canafest,

Cannabis Events, Compliance & The End of the Gray Area

SPEAKER_01 14:20

and they're like even just like pop-up events where you were able to be able to sell maybe the place had a liquor store, uh a liquor license. That's that was usually like the best case. Like if they have a liquor, if the a brewery was having like a market and they have a liquor license, well then all the hemp licenses or all the hemp businesses can can do what they do. Now, now it's not so simple. Like there's such oversight, there's such control on these products, there's such regulation on these products. Like I was talking to you know our previous guest, and there's only been two week cannabis event license, like licensed events that have happened in more more than six months.

SPEAKER_02 15:00

Yeah, I I think back to some of the Canac Connect events at the wilderness where um what like Storks and Bickels sponsored and had a a table in back with all all the vaporizers that people could go and use with their home grow. And like uh Osteom wouldn't love that today if it doesn't really fly with sort of our modern understanding of the rules. And I um yeah, I mean we we knew it at the time that we were sort of living in that great in-between gray area, but it truly I I think it's it it's for real. Like thinking about the amount of background work that had to go into planning the early legacy cups where you showed up. Um I I think I'd won. I even got my bag at the event with all the samples in it, and they're like, just judge it. I'm like, all right, great. Um very pandemic. Yeah, and now we've come to a day where like it is so licensed and structured that um it it's fun, but it's it's different, that's for sure.

Why Compliance Matters More Than Ever

SPEAKER_01 16:00

I think I hear you. I think we've both seen a lot done different things in the industry, worked for different groups, and and been exposed to opportunities as well as challenges. You've always been more on the compliance side of understanding the rules. Yes, you can pretend you don't know the rules, but what we're saying is those days are ending. Like those days are numbered in in not really going by the book. Now the book is more it's required reading.

SPEAKER_02 16:34

Yeah, totally. I I went to a licensed dispensary, I don't want to name or shame. They were selling this was right before the beeswax recall, um, beeswax pre-rolls that said, you know, THC or below 0.3% THC on the package, hemp drive pre-roll. That had a little sign next to it that said 18% THC. And they just said, ah, yeah, they're working on their licensing stuff. And um, I I think the days of education are now. OCM's coming in and saying, hey, we don't do that here. Um I think soon it will turn into, hey, you don't have your license anymore. Like you we you can't just claim ignorance. Um now I think a lot of people can, and yeah, and I I think there's even more people that are really trying their best and are are are working to try to operate within the rules. I think of uh lucky strains that bought legal tribal product through the system that they were supposed to, only to have OCM turn around and go, I actually that's not compliant for sale in Minnesota, that's only tribally compliant, and um had to then, I believe, give the product back. I don't know, don't call me on that, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

Um they're educating now, I don't think they they

Evaluating the Office of Cannabis Management (OCM)

SPEAKER_01 17:45

will be for you think well it's uh the OCM's a really tough one because they're I I don't even know what to say.

SPEAKER_02 17:58

Yeah, yeah. I think um Wow. So here's here's what I'll say about OCM. I I'm I've been very excited by some of their recent moves they've been doing. Their guidance memos, I think, are clear to a point of um almost too queer, uh, which is helpful at times. I also think they recognize the limits of what they're able to do. I was at a a hemp event um when was this November of last year um with Eric Tauble and a bunch of the local craft brewery manufacturers talking about what are we going to do when this testing will changes come January. Um at the time, obviously the law hadn't changed. We were sort of looking at this looming deadline. And Eric said, like, my hands are tied. There's only so much that I can do. We're looking into creative ways that we'd be able to solve this problem. But as of right now, I can't just kick this testing dad testing deadline down the road. So what they did instead is they just kicked the licensing deadline down the road and said, we're just not gonna license anyone until March. So those rules just they just don't apply until the legislature has been in session for at least a month. Right. It just sort of worked out that the law happened to get signed just a few days before that March deadline. And so suddenly everything was handy-dory. And I I think um I I will give OCM a lot of credit that they're within the rules that were written for them, are trying to make it work. Um I I would I wish there was more emphasis on actually getting social equity businesses up and running.

Social Equity Licensing: What’s Working and What’s Not

SPEAKER_02 19:30

You know, OCM is great, they provide a lot of data. You can look and see who's been licensed. Um and you can see I believe we're at less than 50%, maybe 50%. Um and in certain categories, you don't have any social equity license applicants, even though they've been applying, they've gotten pre-approval. Right. Um, I know some of the businesses are really tough to get up and running, especially a testing lab. You're looking at half a million, a million dollar investment. But um there could be, I think, more support.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Yeah. And and the the 35% ownership is is a challenge, or the 65% ownership is a challenge. And that got talked about potentially being changed in the legislature this year. Yep. We're recording this on May 6th.

SPEAKER_02 20:11

Um, yeah, you picked a wonderful time. There's actually a hearing happening like as we're recording. And so we aren't able to talk about whether the bill made its way through or not, because we just I I don't know right now.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

Oh, we should have recorded on Friday afternoon.

SPEAKER_02 20:23

I know. That's that's the time when OCM coming up with new stuff. But um Yeah, no, that I I think the

Home Grow Rights and the Next Cannabis Policy Fight

SPEAKER_02 20:30

legislature is really looking at practical changes to be able to move the the industry forward in a way that works for operators and works for consumers. I think the big thing missing from the conversation is the home grower. Um this is where I'm gonna shamelessly plug my Substack. I posted an article about um homegrowers are really at risk of being criminalized for growing too much cannabis. And there's a lot of rules that I think could be loosened. That brings us back to the days of the markets where people could start brands on a pretty low basis. Yeah. Um, you know, I I can make hot sauce from gardens that I grow in my yard, sell them to people, and and as long as I take a safety class that the state provides, you you're set. You're you're sort of good to go. Um I think we could be looking around very similar rules around the the craft cannabis grower.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

Um but I wonder if cyclically I wonder if this happens naturally or it's human nature to some degree where we're we're acknowledging that brands are being phased out just through the market conditions. Like there aren't I think we've we've definitely peaked as far as the number of hemp beverages that are, you know, on the store shelves. Um but maybe and I I I do think there we need to come together in order to to get rules that benefit the h the home grower and and benefit the social equity groups and and like we do need to have More of a unified voice like we had four years ago as we approach 2023. But the like I wonder if now is the time in a sense, like looking ahead to the next 12 months to say, okay, there's been a wave of openings. Now it's time to reclaim homegrower rights and make sure that we're not over policing. We make sure that the government is not over policing.

Cannabis Lobbying, Industry Influence & Big Money

SPEAKER_02 22:31

I certainly hope so. You know, I I think we're entering a different time in our market. There used to be a time where I think as a cannabis consumer, you could call a lawmaker and say, hey, here's the legalization bill that I'm looking for. Me and my nonprofit, we've got this bill, we'd really like to push for it. You could get it to be introduced, and that was sort of a a change that happened. I I I think obviously it wouldn't get a ton of traction, but it's got introduced. Yeah, I I think there is less of that now. If you're looking at the amount of money that people are spending on lobbying on the cannabis side, it's night and day difference than what it was just five years ago. More. Significantly, yeah. You just have more people that are invested in what actually ends up happening. You've got the tribal company, or excuse me, the the uh tribal um investment firm, like the the business cooperatives that that are looking to make money off of this. Yeah. You've got the medical companies that have been spending money on lobbying and continue to. Right. And then you've got new multi-state operators that are looking at this as a potential place to come in and say, hey, those macro business licenses, that looks pretty sick. How could I get one of those?

SPEAKER_01 23:36

Yeah, that looks like what I had in Illinois or that's Yeah, not too dissimilar.

SPEAKER_02 23:40

And suddenly now if I'm doing that and oh yeah, I'm also doing medical, so now I get to grow a little bit more. I've got these stores that are set up in eight different counts. Like you've got suddenly something that looks like sort of a successful operating cannabis business that, yeah, isn't at scale of what you have in places like Florida or Oklahoma or whatever, but I think it's still

The Role of Legacy Growers in Minnesota Cannabis

SPEAKER_02 24:00

larger than what the early days of our market envisioned.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

Okay. And the way we keep score in in in our society is taxes.

SPEAKER_02 24:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

So it all it all comes back to revenue produced for the state.

SPEAKER_02 24:15

Yeah, oh, very much so. And and I'm not uh uh you know, I I'm not uh kidding myself that I think the the home growers have some huge voice in the market. But I do think that the legacy side of a market that has operated for as long as we've been around continues to have a role and should sort of claim that voice to say there's a side of this market that is still safe, that is still operational, that still functions, and it's how we've gotten cannabis for years. Yeah. Let's figure out how to really create that pathway. Because when the micro license was first introduced, it was said, this is how we're gonna allow people to get into the market at a really low bar. Yeah. And I think what we saw is that that bar is low at times, but we can make it lower. And we can create these steps that allow people to get up to that, right? That still allow them to operate within the market, still provide product, but in a way that's, I think, a little bit more creative. We we've been a state that's long been creative on cannabis regulations. Yeah. Um, I remember when we had the with the New Hampshire or Vermont uh consultants that came in and described this as a uh uniquely quirky Minnesota market. And it's true. And I think we can sort of lean into that to find ways that really benefit people and benefit the consumer.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

Are you growing this year?

SPEAKER_02 25:34

I am, yeah. So uh I, you know, the best part about working for a cannabis education nonprofit is that you get to go to a lot of grow classes. And so I I've taken what I've learned from those. Um about a week ago, I got this huge tarp and I laid it out in my front driveway. I got rice hulls and compost and sort of mixed up my own super soil, a la Cornell. Um it was further away from the brewing equipment than than we were doing, but still there. Um I got the beds outside. I've started my plants indoors, like I learned from Clem and Matt. And uh uh, you know, getting that all ready to go. Um I'm growing some bloom cuts that I got from a friend this year. So looking forward to sort of seeing how those do outdoors in Minnesota. And uh yeah, just just topped my indoor tent not that long ago. Okay. Um just barely met that legal threshold.

SPEAKER_01 26:25

Um good size indoor grow then. Yeah, yeah. A good-sized plant.

SPEAKER_02 26:30

Yeah, so I just go the one plant, one tent method. So I've got a three by three tent, a three by three bed inside of there. It I let the tent the plant take up the entire tent. Um so it's short but exactly, yep. Round. Classic screen of green. That's sort of the the method that I like to go with. Um and yeah, just get as many of those flower sites as possible. Okay. Um and then I I you know, I used to argue with Clem about this, is is it excuse me, Dr. Dabney? Um I used to argue with him about is it genetics, is it good growing? You know, there's a lot of people that I think say I'm a really good grower, and there are really good growers out there. But clut uh Dr. Dabney used to always compare it to like raising cows. You can be a really good cow farmer or rancher, that the term escapes me. Rancher's beverage. Yeah, exactly. You can provide them the right grass, you can, you know, give them the right, whatever you want to do. Um, but you need the good genetics to create good meat. Okay. I think cannabis is really similar, where if you have really good genetics, you can treat it like shit and it's still gonna grow okay. Can I swear on this? Yeah, yeah, no, I think it's fine. Treat it, treat it like crap. And uh you you can you can you can still get a really good plant out of it. And so I'm not at all claiming that I'm a good grower. I've spent a lot of time around good growers to know that I'm low on the the the threshold.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

But I think that's such a funny question. Like it's the childhood instinct of c can I swear on this on this rigging?

SPEAKER_02 27:54

Yeah, I I'm I'm pretty certain, but I now that we're we're live, I don't want I don't know if you can edit it.

Cannabis Business Reality vs Cannabis Industry Hype

SPEAKER_02 28:00

Some words you can't say. Okay, all right, yeah, yeah. I'll I'll avoid those for now. Um that will be for the the OnlyFans show.

SPEAKER_01 28:07

Um So what genetics did you grow in indoors?

SPEAKER_02 28:11

Um so I was given a trap cookies rainbow guava cross. Um so it's two uh pretty well-established cuts that they have that I was given a seed that was selected out of a pack of eight. Okay. Um so it's not one of like the bloom specific cuts, but it's still a pretty nice cut that I was excited about. Okay. Um it it was it was pretty nice. It um was about a 4% washer to bubble, then slightly less than that when I when I pressed it out.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

So you still are I haven't talked to you in a while. You are you still refining your flower?

SPEAKER_02 28:44

Oh yeah, absolutely. So I I do it all. Um I've got it in the garage now. So uh since we spoke, I I think I I can't remember if it's happening right around the end of the show. Um I moved, I now have a garage, it's very exciting. Um, it's not a not a nice garage, so we don't really park cars in it, which is perfect because that actually makes it the hash lab. So um we've done a couple washes out there. Uh we're we're reaching the end of the season now. It it's pretty warm out, so you know right.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

The needle cool temps.

SPEAKER_02 29:12

Yeah, the it was really nice when it was 20 out. That was really great for washing, less so when it's like 50. Um really great for growing now soon.

SPEAKER_01 29:21

But yeah, I have three plants going in my uh upstairs. They're they're in my windowsill. Okay, nice. They're just getting natural lighting. My hope is that and I'll I'll run this past you. My hope is that I can then transfer the indoor house plants into the outdoor yard. Yeah, totally. And then let them do their thing outside.

SPEAKER_02 29:42

Absolutely. That's sort of my plan as well. Okay. Um I've got a couple that I started, what they're just cuts of the other plant, but they're sure. They're rooted and ready. Um, that soon we'll go outside. This is the part that I always get nervous about, where like it's sort of a uh what's the diminishing return where like at some point it's better for it to be outside even though it's a little bit chilly versus it being too cold for it to be outside. Sure. Like I think it's supposed to frost tonight specifically. Yeah. And so I wouldn't have any plants outside now. Okay. Um, but I'm looking at hopefully like next weekend, maybe the weekend after.

SPEAKER_01 30:16

It's always it's always Mother's Day or right around.

SPEAKER_02 30:18

Totally. And so um looking to sort of around that time period to get everything outside. Um, I got large garden beds. Um, they're like four feet across um and are like a foot and a half deep. Yeah. So I filled that that's super soil. They raised, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, that they'll be going in. Um I grew outdoor last year, uh only in like the latter part of the season, um, all in just pots. Hoping that the raised garden beds this year will just give them more room to grow. Uh, hopefully get larger plants.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

Yeah. We'll see. The last couple summers have been really good for Minnesota outdoor grown. Minnesota outdoor grown uh as a as a market, as a source for what turns into products, yeah, primarily will be seen as what biomass, um turned into oil, maybe refined into uh more high-quality products.

SPEAKER_02 31:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:16

But is there also a market for outdoor flour, like sun-grown flour in Minnesota?

SPEAKER_02 31:21

I I do think so. I I you know, I I want to start by saying I think greenhouse is sort of that like nice crossover where you're getting the sun, but like a little bit more controlled in the environment. But Minnesota, you can get some wonderful flour grown outdoors. We have a shorter season than other places, but you can still get some really high-quality cannabis.

SPEAKER_01 31:40

Stefan Egan is is doing it in real life with various fields.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

Absolutely. And I think we've seen a number of people that grow outdoors not just to use for solvent lists, not just to use for, you know, the the pens they're making. Yeah. It's it's actually really the neat to see all the different products that people are making in our market slowly but surely. Um But yeah, I I do think there'll be a market for outdoor flour, especially when people are looking at I want to get a high quality product, but I also want something that's affordable. And it's hard to beat the free sun. Right. Um, right. You know, there's obviously there are costs that go into growing outdoors, but it's a night and day difference in growing indoors. And if a consumer is willing to look at something and go, hey, that's a third the cost, and maybe only 75% is good, I'll take that. That's still fine. Right.

SPEAKER_01 32:31

Um the flower itself may not look as nice, but from what I remember learning through with you and others, like that you get better trichomes sometimes through the sun-grown cannabis. So there are some advantages to or benefits to price being one of them. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 32:46

I I think we yeah, I'm I'm so excited that we have such educated consumers. You know, it's great, it's it's really nice. Um, I think, especially compared to other markets, you can go to other states and look in dispensaries and they don't really list minor cannabinoids.

The Economics of Minnesota Cannabis

SPEAKER_02 33:00

You know, definitely listing terpenes has become more in vogue, but I I think being educated around the product that you have is really good. I also think we need to recognize that as consumers, you know, back in 2014 when I was buying cannabis, I wasn't asking if it was outdoor grown. I didn't know what strain it was. And I still had a positive enough experience that I said, I want to keep using cannabis. This is good. I'm gonna buy more whatever you take away from it. Yeah. That I think there's really good cannabis, and I think it's cool that there's a lot of craft market around it. But I also think we need to recognize, like you were talking about earlier, craft versus industrial. There's also gonna be this bar that people say that this is good enough cannabis. People go to a uh liquor store and there's good beer, allegedly. But there's also the beer that people buy because that's the 24-pack that they can get that's cheapest for the party. People drink it. I think we're gonna see the same in Canada.

SPEAKER_01 33:52

Sure, sure. I definitely think so. I think this would be a good time for us to take a break and maybe try some some rules. Oh, yeah, I heard the uh product. We've got C Labs, first product review outside of like Cocoa Flow or Big Okay, yeah, totally. Uh first adult use cannabis product review on the show. No, no better person to do it with than yourself.

SPEAKER_02 34:16

Thank you, man. I'm happy to be here.

SPEAKER_01 34:17

And I feel like we could keep this conversation going through Adab as well as you know, kind of maybe talk about other stuff, but I mean the it's so complicated and it it shouldn't be. I I I guess that's kind of my sentiment when it comes to legalization, descheduling, uh plant medicine. And maybe this super booth will open us up to having a further conversation on it, but also I understand it's it's it's extremely frustrating at the same time.

SPEAKER_02 34:50

Yeah. I I'm excited to give it a try.

SPEAKER_01 34:56

The show, the show is is what you know it. You know, not a whole lot has changed. Yes, the studio looks different, uh the name's different, but it's Tanner, Steven, we're here. We're we've got our our trusty Bovida Sea Vault, custom Sea Vault. We have the Pufco that we would love to sponsor the show. You know, we we see you, Puffco. Um and and then we have a brand new product, uh just hit the market in April from C Labs, that's concentrate labs. They say cannabis redefined or refined. Uh and this is this is the pencil to to the tree in the forest. This is as far as I'm aware that you can take the product and uh maybe there's certain different ways to further extract or refine, but as as folks know who've watched this show in the past or the previous uh the Northern Lights shows, resin, rosin, this is the this is the fun stuff. This is this is the most pure form of the plant. You're able to taste the flavors um in each strain and cultivar is going to be different. Even each cut off your cultivar. Yeah, could be different.

SPEAKER_02 36:09

I'm excited about this one. And this is a neat grower because if we think back to you know the early days of people first getting their licenses, uh these guys, uh I think roots and resin farms. Is that who this is? Yeah, so um one of the first people I remember them, their story getting in the newspaper of like, we're gonna grow all this and turn it into salbas lusbrazin. Well, this is that. So if people were wondering, like, how long did it take to actually get something to market? This is something that was grown last summer, yeah, processed. Uh it's I was looking at the the jar, I found it very interesting. Uh made in January of this year, tested end of January. Um, this was then made available and bought April, May?

SPEAKER_01 36:51

Right. So March. I mean uh and and who knows, maybe some of these dealings were decided, you know, late last year, early this year. I believe the the the rosin came online right around 420.

SPEAKER_02 37:04

Okay. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 37:05

Generally how I perceive the the market as I remember the market.

SPEAKER_02 37:09

We're now it's a good launch, understand.

SPEAKER_01 37:11

Yeah. How was how was your 420?

SPEAKER_02 37:14

It was uh relatively uneventful. Um it actually this is a very different 420 than I've had in the past. As a teacher, I always just took the day off. I just sort of was very unashamed and I just said I'm I'm just not working that day. Um last year it was on Easter, and so none of us were working. Um he hash rosin was was the theme of last year. Um this was my first year working on 420 in like six years. It was a Monday. Yep, it was just a Monday, it was just another day at work. Um I remember uh our sales guy came in around noon and went, Hey, happy 420, everyone. And uh we joined each other and we're like, oh yeah, I guess. Um and so uh pretty unexciting, but uh you know it's it's a it's a shame because you know how the days move.

SPEAKER_01 37:58

Like your birthday might be on

Building Sustainable Cannabis Businesses

SPEAKER_01 38:00

a Monday, and then the next year it's on a Tuesday and a Wednesday, and so on and so on. But like when legalization happened, it was a Saturday. That first 420 we ran into each other at Modest, that was three years ago. No, two years ago.

SPEAKER_02 38:13

Uh no, that's three years ago. Yeah. That's 2023.

unknown 38:18

Wow. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 38:19

I know it it's I I remember being on an early episode of Nerd Lights with you and making some comment about like well, the early days of hemp, that was only like a couple of years ago. And you're like, Trainer, I think that was 2021, and being like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. Um and uh we've been around and seen things change for a while, that's for sure. Yeah so I I'm coming back to the the thesis of all this, I'm excited that you had this. I think this is really neat. Um, this will be I I my understanding is I I think the most expensive oil I've ever smoked in my entire life. But I'm excited that it's here. I'm excited it's Minnesota grown, Minnesota processed, it's neat packaging. Uh you know, I it's it's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 39:01

I grabbed Superbooth because of all the fun we had. Yeah. Oh yeah. With Super Boof and Superboof being the strain of the year in in 2024.

SPEAKER_02 39:11

So when I saw that they only had three strains that came they came out with and superboof was one of them, it was terrible. But it I had this moment where I was like, should I go buy that? Like and I I did it, or at least I haven't yet. We'll see how today goes. But um yeah, it it uh I I I'm definitely excited to be able to give Superboof a try.

SPEAKER_01 39:30

Trevor Burrus, and they also have a papaya um that I considered I considered buying both, and then I looked at the price and said, uh, I can't afford that. Yes, let's take a look at it. Start with one today. With a half gram though, like as I was getting ready for this episode, I was thinking, like, in theory, could Tanner and I finish the entire jar in one sitting? Like, because a half gram is is not a lot of present.

SPEAKER_02 39:55

Yeah, I think I think we definitely could. Um I think if we're just doing tastings, we probably will only go through like maybe like half that at most. But um yeah, it it's the fun days of an early market is you see quantities sold that just really aren't sold other times. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 40:13

Um it's like a hundred milligram C BD tincture.

SPEAKER_02 40:16

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's uh technically people who are buying it, they're excited about it. Um and and I think it's because they do have such limited supply and they're trying to spread around as much as possible. And half gram gets you twice as much product.

SPEAKER_01 40:29

And uh I bought it at Legacy Minneapolis and it was it I ordered it ahead of time and then picked it up. She asked if I wanted a bag. I said yes. But I don't think it was refrigerated when I prior to it handed. Now I don't know, yeah, but like is I mean the best way to cu to cure care for it after purchase is in the fridge.

SPEAKER_02 40:55

Yeah, so my preferred would be when you get it from the store, it being refrigerated. Yeah. Some people don't like that because then as you're driving it home, it like sort of warms up a little bit, you're getting that changes. But I I think especially for long-term preservation, where okay, maybe I'm making some assumptions, but I assume that they're not selling through it the same day that they get it. Maybe they are. Right. And if they're doing that, then sure, leave it on the shelf. I don't really care. But I think if they're planning to have it for more than a week, yeah, it I'd love it to be in the bridge.

SPEAKER_01 41:23

And I I shouldn't say that they did or didn't, because I actually was just on the outside of the dispensary because I went through the window. But um talk about sort of a neat dispense.

SPEAKER_02 41:34

Like yeah, uh I it's been cool. We've mentioned a couple names uh so far on the show, but Josh is another one who've been around for such a long time in this industry. Right. Seeing that store in Minneapolis come online, I didn't go to the Duluth opening. I you know, the Woodbury one is neat. But the Minneapolis is like that's the store that I went to in college when I was looking to buy glass. Yeah. And so to now have that space right next door be the licensed dispensary. You walk through there, you exit into the gift shop of Legacy. Like it's it's pretty neat. It's uh it it's very Minneapolis, very legacy. Um it's cool to go to other markets and see the brands that have been built up and established there. That's like this is what Colorado cannabis feels like, or this is Michigan. I think Legacy will be one of those names that probably stick around in the lexicon of Minnesota cannabis.

SPEAKER_01 42:21

Yeah. I I mean I'm just surprised that they're the only shop in Uptown that's selling cannabis. For now.

SPEAKER_02 42:28

All right, all right, all right. So so so let's give this a let's give this a look. Yes. Um do you want to pop it open? I mean, that's that's I I feel bad doing that. So it's the nice uh pop that jars, so you'll hear that very satisfying pop sound when you open it. Um helps to keep those terpenes preserved. Oh yeah, there we go.

SPEAKER_01 42:47

Yeah, right away. A little bit lemony. Like I know, I know what I will respond well to from Tanner's terp tasting, so man, that is just a little gob.

SPEAKER_02 42:59

Okay, now I'm getting

Cannabis Culture, Community & Consumer Education

SPEAKER_02 43:00

Oh wow. Yep. Oh yeah, so that's definitely super boofy. You get like a ton of that like creamy oranginess. Creamy orange. But yeah, it's it's it's very clearly spluted out. Um I don't know if it's like a machine or a or a hand, what that is.

SPEAKER_01 43:17

Like a cake, like a cake froster.

SPEAKER_02 43:20

Oh, yeah, exactly. It it's you know, craft industrial. A lot of oil that you buy, especially in a larger dispensaries, is literally a giant machine that they fill with the oil. Okay. And then it's just like a conveyor belt of jars that it's moving through. Machine machines. This looks similar, but smells really great. And actually it looks really good. Uh I didn't really know exactly what to expect. What do you like about the color? Um it's sort of got like a nice uh yellow lightness to it. What I mean by that is like it's not too amber, it's not too dark. Um, I don't like the oil that's almost like white to the texture. Um I like when there's a little bit of color to it, it just means that there's more. of those chirps that I prefer. So yeah, I mean it looks, it looks great, but I agree with you. That's it's funny. I've never seen a a half gram uh half gram jar before.

SPEAKER_01 44:12

This where we are right now, this is, and I know we already kind of said it, but this is like the most advanced product that we have, the most refined product that we have. It's a farm that has gone out and developed their own brand. Yep. It's not Tanner's Farm and then Tanner's Farm Flower. It's Roots and Resin Farm. C Labs is the brand and then they've taken their their grow and brought it all the way to the resin form. I'm really excited.

SPEAKER_02 44:39

Yeah, yeah. This will be neat. I'll soup a sum up. Wow. Yeah so that I mean it it looks really good. I I don't know if we can see on the camera but I'll still hold it up just because I'm excited about it. This is the the first Taner's trip tasted in quite a long time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:01

This is exciting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:04

I've just been doing devs but refusing to taste it for for for just like a year. It's been it's been a weird experience. Just not inhaling. Yeah. And we're we're good to heat it up in here.

SPEAKER_01 45:15

That's cool cool. They kind of were like, hey when are you gonna and that's kind of where I was like well I I I gotta get some operators and and stores kind of in the in the Yeah fair. Gotta show them try before you buy kind of a thing.

SPEAKER_02 45:31

Absolutely well and I think this is like the truest form of being able to talk about cannabis products is for a long time it's been you know limited in what scope and category we've been able to talk about. It's been hey you know we can you know talk about we generally but this is now like hey I'm consuming it let's talk about this experience. Yeah there's that for you thank you stay tuned flavor. Oh yeah that's incredible that is that is super boofed true to the name um the I I've I used the word earlier the creaminess of it but it is almost like that vanilla um like aftertaste that I think is so good where it's not just like that straight sour tangy flavor but it's orange but it's like orange soda it's it's really nice and light. Yeah this is where I need need people that have much more defined palettes to be able to come on and say oh this uh hits of notes of X, Y, and Z. But I think if you've ever had Superboof before you you know what it tastes like and this is this is true to that. Um yeah yeah wow that that's pretty cool. Um what are your thoughts on that one?

SPEAKER_01 46:50

I think I'd do another one the the the orangey I said lemon but I was wrong. I think it it is that orange citrus that um my dab uh intake has been quite lower since since the last tanner syrup tasting now I the on the flour side I'm definitely partial to the citrus and the the lime in and just that citrone that like it I it responds I respond really well to it from a flour standpoint. So I thought about the papaya but that papaya can go a little dark on you too like and so I was like uh let's go with super booth so let me give it one more pull.

SPEAKER_02 47:32

Oh yeah absolutely yeah you get way less of the the sour elements that I think a lot of the citrus fruit gives you and this is um you know it it's it's tough exactly to describe um it's straight through it's clean um we're not roasting it at a super high temp I don't don't feel and I like that immediately you felt that there was a qualitiness to this product and that makes me happy. Yeah I I uh I remember thinking back to when I first started smoking weed and people would be like oh this is blue dream and then hearing others be like well that's not like this this tastes nothing like blue dream I I I think we're starting at least I'm starting personally to get to a point where it's like yeah this is something that I very clearly recognize like I think you could have given me that without the jar and I would have been like wow this is this is super boofy. I got to tour one of the tribal grows not too long ago very neat experience and they opened one of their grow rooms indoors and it's like oh I think super booth is in this room. And uh yep there it was.

SPEAKER_01 48:42

You could see you could smell it before you saw it.

SPEAKER_02 48:44

I I think that's just one of those that just stands out to me as such a unique profile. I think Whithorn Rose is another one where like there's just not other things like that right now. There's a lot that's similar but it sort of has that like je ne sais quoi or whatever you will

The Evolution of Minnesota’s Cannabis Market

SPEAKER_02 49:00

that makes it a bit different.

SPEAKER_01 49:03

I want to play with this craft and industrial conversation as well as you know touch on the fact that medical marijuana companies are going to be able to write off their marketing expenses now and their toilet paper and everything else that comes with 280 yes we're interesting yes we like to do things differently when it comes to Minnesota. We think we're interesting therefore we do things differently we have craft cannabis and we have industrial degrade cannabis and we also have really strict testing rules that degrade the industrial product due to the need to pass testing. Allegedly so there can be multiple fights fought within the same war. Your battle and it doesn't have to be military or war driven vernacular but like some folks are putting it all on the line within their micro license other venture groups maybe this is a portion of their portfolio now there's still a lot at risk but it's not life or death and when you're an entrepreneur depending on your circumstances the ventures you take on may be in some way seen as life or death and when you're dealing with a plant that's been villainized and stashed away and and scheduled and and uphill battles left and right it it becomes personal. Your battle becomes personal but some of that is true across the spectrum because everybody does it for a reason. Yeah you wouldn't be here if you didn't have a reason to to do it.

SPEAKER_02 51:09

Yeah totally what I think um you know it's important to reflect on this is a really big arc of history that we're a part of we're seeing the early days of this market rollout but this isn't what's going to define what Minnesota cannabis is this is building what's going to be what we see as cannabis in Minnesota. And I think brands like Concentrate Labs are really unique. They're really cool right now and I hope that they continue to be successful in the future. I mean that's clearly a good product like that's that's great. I hope that that keeps being in our market. But I think it's gonna switch at some point from not just you sell weed, but you sell weed so what? And it's like what is it that defines your brand? What is that sets your products apart? What is it that makes a consumer want to walk into a store and go, that's something that I want to buy there will be of course a market that thrives here in Minnesota. It might be that industrial side of things uh it might be that craft side of things it might be sort of like beers in Minnesota where we have a little bit of both I I hope that we continue to have craft products that are available and widely successful. But um yeah I I'm at least optimistic, right? I think we have the right blocks in place to build the tool or the to build the machine that allows both to operate. I think there are things that can go wrong along the way but I hope that at least we're working in the right direction where soon the price goes down just because availability goes up but the quality of product is just sort of the same. It's still something that we consider as craft just on an industrial scale. I'll be curious to see because I I think the testing thing is real. Like the the cost of being able to make a batch of a product, have it tested and ensure that that passes testing and available to consumers is a decently high bar financially and also time-wise where like I'm certain part of the delay of this is they were waiting for testing. And I'm certain part of the reason they only have three that they grew is because they can just reduce their testing costs by growing three instead of four, four instead of twelve, whatever be it.

SPEAKER_01 53:25

I totally blinked on February and March being held up for testing.

SPEAKER_02 53:27

Yeah and so I I think it will be you know I'm I'm excited to see where things go once the market matures a little bit. We've got five testing labs that are licensed now. We've got more than 200 licensed cannabis businesses. Like we're getting to a point where that market is reaching something that we can say this is, you know, moderately successful. This is something that is sort of like what we envisioned it to look like. I don't think we're there yet but I do think every day we're at least getting closer to that.

SPEAKER_01 53:57

Well and you you I'm gonna take the reach in and say you were dealing with I want to talk about the beer industry. Sure yeah because if there's all these industries in our world beer and alcohol are closer to cannabis and hemp than many other industries in our world right yeah totally let's I think that they're close relatively close together from a comparison standpoint. One industry is already fully online exists globally sell alcohol over state lines like I think it's weird to sell uh no I should I shouldn't say weird it's like not allowed to necessarily ship beer from friend to friend but do you think that the the closeness in beer and weed and I won't say good thing but what has been your experience in

What Minnesota Got Right (and Wrong) About Legalization

SPEAKER_01 55:01

yeah I I ultimately do think it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 55:03

You know I think for a long time I've I've been wanting them to remain separate only because I think there is a difference. Cannabis has been long sold as like a wellness consumer lifestyle product whereas alcohol I think is just a little bit different as you say lifestyle wellness consumer product it's not that different. But I I I think I thought of them as separate worlds but I think what they're showing in Minnesota is that they don't have to be you know I it's a great example of the Grateful Dead 60th anniversary in in California. They had a licensed cannabis consumption area you could go over there legally smoke weed it was sort of cool to do that at Grateful Dead concert but you weren't allowed to bring alcohol in and so they had people that were like coming up and saying like oh I want to go smoke weed and like you got to chug your beer or throw it away. And so they would quick slam their beer and go on in and like that can't be safer than the world in which cannabis and alcohol just co-intermingle. And so I think you places like Trail Magic, places like Surly, you know, insert any brewery you want here showed that these two worlds can coexist and that the rules that keep us safe around alcohol also keep us pretty safe around cannabis and we don't need to think of it as something entirely different, something wholly unique. We have over a hundred years of figuring out how to regulate alcohol we can learn a lot from that and just treat it similarly. Right. I don't think the three two system is the future for cannabis but I do think by looking at how alcohol is able to be moved through the market we can treat something similar. Yeah. Uh I like that we have licensed transportation companies in Minnesota. I don't see a reason why DoorDash can't bring me cannabis but I guess they can it's just hemp but not adultees.

SPEAKER_01 56:51

That word when I read your blog post, your Substack article I I agreed with you and I thought man this whole thing's made up like this four letter word name hemp and and it's it's not that we're it's we are living in a market that has done fairly well adopting what do they call it like uh loaded hemp. Yeah they call it like there's a term that gets used at the Capitol Well and that's the tough part is like intoxicate.

SPEAKER_02 57:21

Yeah intoxicating hemp there we go it is hemp is like I I think it's been co-opted. I think it is sort of a real thing in that like if you're looking to grow for seed or fiber or you're looking to grow for you know making hemp crete like there are applicable industrial hemp reasons if you'd be looking to grow this plant. And then I think we looked at the farm bill and said, oh that also means weed and it doesn't and it it it shouldn't maybe I think legalization is the right step but I I do think that the farm bill never intended for the adult use market that we had that exploded. And so you know I I I think I think farmers haven't been growing hemp in Minnesota for the last three years.

SPEAKER_01 58:05

It's it keeps going down and down and down. Totally yet the in the industry keeps going up and up and up and the farmers keep growing less hemp and that's been a trend that's been happening for a number of years and I've been paying attention to it and it's it's puzzling and it's uh disappointing and it's not what the Farm Bill intended per se because farmers aren't growing hemp.

SPEAKER_02 58:25

Yeah when the first uh report on Minnesota's hemp market came out the Department of Agriculture did they asked people why are you growing gave them a bunch of different options. In years later flour or CBD became a huge category that people were growing for 70-80% of what the market was. The first year they didn't even ask about that. It was are you growing for grain or seed? And that was it. That was what the hemp market was very quickly it became what we have today. I I think inevitably it needs to be given back to the farmers that are growing for fiber because there's no reason they should be having to send their stuff for testing. Like it's just it's a different market and if you're looking to make t-shirts or bags or all these cool hemp products like that that happens in China and you're welcome. Yeah no I know I know I know but but I do think that like I agree with you that like the hemp that we have today is a is a made up term.

SPEAKER_01 59:19

Trevor Burrus What strains are CBD farmers growing? I wonder what what's in what's in these beverages it's it's it's a good question.

SPEAKER_02 59:28

And I think the reality is it's probably just adult youth flour. Not grown under an adult youth framework, but grown in a way that in Minnesota would be considered adult youth, but in you know insert state name here isn't it's below 0.3% THC when they test it and that's all that's really required.

SPEAKER_01 59:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 59:48

You know the THC A versus THC in certain states is different than is in Minnesota. And so I think you're able to have markets that they can grow huge amounts of biomass that are relatively rich in THC, but below the legal compliance point. By weight exactly and be able to process that and get huge amounts of this I don't know the exact strain but uh I I think it's probably more similar to the stuff that you see in a dispensary than it is to the stuff that you used to see in like the CBG white days. Right. Yeah like cherry abacus like the I I remember when that was like the big in vogue strain in Minnesota's market. And I I don't think farmers are growing anything like that anymore.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:29

Aaron Ross Powell So that strain died because the OCM and the state didn't want it to be confused with THCA flow.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:36

Yeah I think it's also because the market just moved on. Like there were a lot of consumers in Minnesota back in 2018.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:43

I guess 2020 But have you ever tried a Laurel crest C BG vape? I can't say that I have um CBG vape's c crystal CBG extract like that hits and no one's gonna grow it on the adult use side in Minnesota

Predictions for Minnesota Cannabis Over the Next Year

SPEAKER_01 1:01:00

because it takes away from a THC plant.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:02

Totally absolutely and we have a market that for I think for worse doesn't allow hemp to cross into the adult use market. So it's not like you could even the the LaurelQrest which I think makes a great product I agree with you like all of their isolates are are wonderful shot at LaCrest. Um but like that could exist in an adult use market and be able to supplement but not in Minnesota. They've clearly drawn that line yeah um so yeah I I I think there's a world where minor cannabinoids are a positive thing. I just think right now when you only have 10,000 square feet, yeah, that's that's what you're currently right.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:39

Yeah I bring up Laurelcrest because I saw on a LinkedIn post from one of their employees that CBG is not at risk through the deliberations that are happening in Washington which makes me think CBG only produce.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:55

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:56

Yeah I want to avoid path of least resistance.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:59

Yeah I I don't disagree with you. I think it will be I'll be curious to see who is the growers of biomass under the new regulations. In Minnesota just generally I think nationally because yeah there's nothing that under the new rules would prohibit someone from making a CBG product. There's nothing that would prohibit that from being shipped across state borders someone with a hemp retailer's license could sell that in Minnesota. I just am curious about the grower of the material that's making that product where are they? What market is it that allows them to grow high cannabinoid hemp flour where they couldn't just grow adult use anymore.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:36

It's international.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:38

Because if Poit four goes into effect then you're you're not a let from what I've been put on to is like it doesn't ban import. It turns it it back it goes back to the Minnesota and Wisconsin of of 2022 when when the cease and desist letters were going out here but not there. So you can bring it in like you can bring it like you could bring it in from Wisconsin right now. We're not actually solving the problem. The more that we prohibit the plant the problems don't go away.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:08

You want to play a game? Yeah all right so um I brought a very short game because I didn't know how much time we would have but wanted something that that you know it it we're hanging out we're doing the thing we got it we gotta do it. So uh this is a game called legal or illegal it's it's very basic. I'm just gonna give you a scenario you tell me whether you think it's it's legal or illegal. So here's like a a warm-up round. Yeah uh you grow one legal plant at your home but you took Dr. Dabs and Matt Robert's class so it was so big you now have way over your legal limit. Is that legal or illegal?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:41

You are illegal.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:42

Yep yeah there you go. Yep yeah it's pretty straightforward pretty pretty easy.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:45

So all right here's the first one a licensed Minnesota dispensary sells low dose hemp pre-rolls and vapes but testing later shows it contains way more THC but the box has a pretty Q on it is this legal or illegal We talked about it on the episode today you can have strong values you can be a leader in your community but if you are illegally selling a product the OTM is only going to get more strict with you and if you did this right now you would be illegal Oh yeah absolutely absolutely all right so here's another one that I think they only get easier from here.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:24

So a Wisconsin shop wants to order 500 milligram gummies and TCA vapes from a Minnesota hemp producer who has a pending license with OCM. They want to ship them across state lines and sell them to consumers without checking IDs because you know it's just hemp. Is that legal or illegal?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:41

That's just Hudson that's totally legal.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:43

Yep yep yep you're totally good to go with that. All right here we go next one next one a customer orders THC gummies online and the post office brings them to you is that legal or illegal oh my god I love this game.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:58

So this question can you repeat it?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:00

Oh yeah so uh a customer orders THC gummies online and the retailer ships them straight to the door through USPS is this legal or illegal?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:10

As long as the OCM doesn't know it's completely illegal Yeah this is legal for now.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:13

Yeah yeah the the the judge said OCM you gotta stop so it's legal.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:17

But Tanner Here we go. This company has stopped selling and sh has stopped shipping to Minnesota. Oh they they they believe that they need to have that signed 21 plus at the door and I believe that the shipping is too cost prohibitive for future compounds. I'm having to ship this in from friends and family after I order it.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:51

Oh well y uh this is the I think the most exciting part is I like Minnesota's rules. I think everyone should follow them. If they're not a company based in Minnesota OCM doesn't have authority to regulate them. They can just they could do whatever they want. And so, like, not that I'm saying they should break Minnesota's law and just ship it into Minnesota without checking IDs, but I I don't think they have to. I think they could.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:16

Also, this is so much more milligrams than what the OCM allows in C BD tincture.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:24

Which is wild because this isn't even something that anyone would look at and be like, wow, that's crazy, intoxicating, or dangerous. It's like no. That's that's all right. Well, here we got some more. We got some more. So a city says we are absolutely not can banning cannabis businesses. And we're not gonna deny your registration. We're just gonna simply vote to not approve it. Is that legal or illegal?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:47

That's legal.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:48

Yeah, so it's it's it's it's likely illegal, but we don't really know. It it's actually in court right now. Um the judges are hoping to release their decision by the end of this month. So we'll see. Really? Yeah, so we might know by the time this comes out whether it's legal or illegal.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:01

Is this happening in uh southern Minnesota?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:03

This is uh Albert Lee. Um, if if you know the the case going on there, um they've been going at it for quite a while. And the the court ruled the city was wrong. They have to give the license because the he applied and he was he was qualified. Um the the city is saying, no, no, we don't. Um and in fact, we only allow four businesses that are licensed, and we already have four. So are you gonna ask us to break our own laws? And so we'll see. We'll see. Um, all right, here we go. Next one. So someone tests positive for THC at work, but they explain that it's not the dangerous Schedule 1 THC, it's not the sketchy hemp THC or the recreational THC, but instead it's the much more reasonable Schedule III medical THC. Is that legal or illegal?

unknown 1:07:48

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:49

You know, believe it or not, I've never been asked this question before. So I don't know the answer to it. But I'm gonna say it's it's legal.

Advice for Entrepreneurs Entering Cannabis

SPEAKER_02 1:08:00

So soon, yeah, soon under a new order. Uh we'll see, you know, uh not to get political. I think the Trump administration has a way of writing orders and not necessarily enacting them all the way through. But the Schedule III change could be pretty huge where suddenly people are able to, if they're medical patients, receive cannabis, and even if there are workplace restrictions, that's now a a a legal medical product. It's different, different rules, a a lot that could change, but but we'll see.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:28

So every cannabis has always been a no-no with drug tests. Yes. As long as you and I have been working in the in the system.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:36

Absolutely. If you want to work for a federal contractor, that's a a no-go.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:40

We've always had the assumption that if you tested for marijuana on your drug test, positive cannabis test, you may not get the job. This goes so much further than anything we've ever experienced.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:55

So much so. Yeah, it's a it's a reshifting of really how we're thinking about cannabis. And while I poke fun at it, I think there's a lot of positive that could come from it.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:03

It's a huge windfall. Are there more questions?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:04

We got one more. One more. It's a final one. So a Minnesota municipal liquor store operating under a lower potency hemp edible retailer license with a lower potency hemp edible retailer operations endorsement. They want to sell a 10 milligram THC, 25 milligram CBD, 25 CBG hemp derived beverage for their Hanukkah 8 Crazy Flight sale. Now, a quick note is that Hanukkah is December 4th through 12th this year. Is this legal or illegal?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:37

Hanukkah's a a few months away. The formula, the blend doesn't scare me.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:46

Nope, nope, you're right. The blend, it's compliant.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:49

It's a decent blend. A little, I mean, it's Hanukkah, you know, it's gonna be that's a strong, it's a strong dose.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:54

Yep, it's it's what one that Adam Sandler himself would approve of, I imagine. Sponsored show every something happening.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:00

It's a municipality. Yep. Sounds like it has the license and the right endorsements. Yep. Uh the right endorsements. I I don't see any issue with this. I think they're legal.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:11

So unfortunately, that's probably gonna become illegal come December of this year, because this is post-November. The law around hemp has changed. It now has more than 0.4 milligrams of THC in it, meaning it's no longer a federally legal hemp product.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:26

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:26

And while it's legal within Minnesota's framework, because they're a municipal liquor store, they have a federal license that allows them to sell alcohol, and they will have to follow all federal regulations around cannabis, including the change in the rules of hemp. And so we're gonna see this weird dynamic where according to state rules, I agree with you. There's nothing wrong with that situation. According to their liquor license they have, it might be a problem. And so more to come. Yeah, yeah. I I absolutely agree with you. That's less than uh when I used to work for Bridget at Ground and Garden and she had her bonbons that were sold as CBD Bond bonds. They were made with rosin that had also THC in it. Yeah. And they often have tested around like five or six milligrams THC. And that that it you she wouldn't even be allowed to sell those anymore. She'd have to totally change that.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:22

But by weight, she was able to.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:24

Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:25

Yep. Those are heavy.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:27

Yep, absolutely. But uh, like I said, the great days of the old times of Hemp.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:31

Well, and that was 2019. When I re when I really remember those, I put friends onto them. Like she was doing deliveries, her team was doing car deliveries.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:42

Oh, yeah. I remember. Yeah, it's uh I want to, you know, leave with a note of of optimism because I do think it's been really exciting to see the people that have been in this market for a while saying, we need this change. We need to move forward towards something that allows us to be a little bit more open. I think Bridget herself would tell you that the rules suck. There needs to be a lot of changes around them. But that they're able to sell flour legally in their store, openly, grow it. Like it's we are reaching that point where we do have a legal cannabis market in Minnesota. And that's that's exciting. And uh I I think there's a lot that still needs to change. We're gonna keep figuring out as a community more and more every day. Yeah. But it it's so cool to be in a state where you know I can give cuts to friends, I can grow in my backyard, I can process in my garage, and as someone's walking their dog by, I get to wave. They're like, what are you doing? I'm like, oh, I'm just washing a bunch of weed. Arts and crafts. Exactly. This is yeah. We're just hanging out. Um, that that we live in a state that we're able to do those types of things. We have, I think, more freedoms around cannabis than even some of the original legalization states. And they've been at this fight for more than a decade. And so I I think we are in the most unique place to be in cannabis right now. It's exciting to be able to see this all grow every day. And while it feels slow, I think when we look back, um I shameless plug here. Yeah. I'm finishing up a book through the U of M press. It's gonna be coming out spring of next year. Um, I finally have all of my parts in. I'm done with my editing. It's off to the copy editor. Um, so I've been doing a lot of reflecting about where our market has come. And I got involved in this back in 2014, in like the medical days of really trying to figure out what is medical look like in Minnesota. Um normal. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. The then to the campaign for full legalization in 2018 to like uh I I think it it's been a it's been a ride, but we're exactly where we wanted to be. I mean, we we can sort of do what we want to do, and well, the rules do need to change, as I've now said for like third or fourth time. Um we we live in a market with legal weeds, and that's sort of what we're always fighting for. And the ability to produce at home. Yeah, right. Um I I

Final Thoughts: The Future of Minnesota Cannabis

SPEAKER_02 1:14:00

just got a public data request back from the state of Minnesota looking on arrests since legalization went into effect. There's been way too many arrests. The racial disparities are are off the charts. But in terms of people being arrested for having too much cannabis at home, since 2023, there's been four people. Four. That's it. And now that's that's bad. We should have less than that, right? Like no one should be arrested for having too much weed at home. I mean three decad out. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But but I I think um, you know, that's way better than it was a decade ago. And that's if we keep that in mind, the the $50 grams don't seem too bad.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:37

You know, it's four people have been arrested for cannabis, for having too much cannabis at home.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:42

In their home. Yeah. A lot of people have been arrested for having it as a minor, for for having it in schools, having it in, you know, out in public too much. But in terms of being at home, I've violated my possession limits for Since legalization? Since legalization. Wow. And that's you know, that's uh like I said, four too many, but a heck of a lot better than it was back in 2014. Yeah. And so uh we we've live in the golden times.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:12

What are you excited to see over the next couple of months?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:14

I like that normal I like that I like how far we've normalized cannabis. We as the collective, everyone who's ever done anything to have tub food sell 12 ounce cans of it. Like wasn't what you set out to do in 2014 necessarily, but it fits into the greater vision.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:34

Totally. But like, yeah, let's go back there. We're at a normal meeting. We're thinking about like, well, maybe we should go stand outside the twins game and hand out flyers or like whatever. And if someone came in and said, hey, in 2025, Target is gonna be selling cannabis products. I'd be like, what the fuck have you been smoking, man? Like, I want some of that, but no, that is that's truly that's the reality of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:55

You'd be quite surprised. You'd be dumbfounded, and yeah, you'd be happy as well. Uh, you know, I joked on LinkedIn last night that they're the largest MSO on the block.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:05

Ain't that the truth? And I think that's the that's gonna be the even bigger shift with rescheduling that I think is gonna be exciting is uh MSOs look like big companies now because they're big in the cannabis game, but compared to alcohol, that's it's not that once the once the floodgates open, I think we're gonna see a whole new definition of what industrial cannabis looks like. For better and for worse. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:28

Yeah, we just take such a personal approach and mindset when it comes to this plant. And that's always that's a part of it. That's a part of her. We're she's connected to us and we connect to her.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:41

And that's the part that I hope the craft market continues to keep alive. I think the industrial market has shown it it it won't. Um the legacy market I I I think will.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:51

As childish Gambino once said, this is America.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:54

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:57

All right, folks, if you enjoyed this episode and would like to see Tanner Barris back on the Canon Connect show, please leave us a comment, leave us a like, let us know what you like. We like C Labs. Yeah, yeah, that's pretty good.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:10

I I I'd I would definitely buy more of this, that's for sure. Um it's good stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:15

Good stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:16

But yeah, no, thank you so much for having me on today. I really appreciate it. Shine up to the new studio. This is pretty sick. Uh at least new to me.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:23

Yeah. Uh plug in open window productions and talking head studios. We shoot all of our content here if we're not live at Lucky Leaf or live at Canacon, and would love to have you back live at Canacon.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:34

I'd appreciate that.