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LED Rebates, Buildouts, and Smarter Cannabis Grows with Alexis Dubourdieu and Tony Beeman | S2E3
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Before a cultivator buys lights, orders HVAC equipment, or signs a lease, there are a few important questions worth asking.
Does the building have enough incoming power? Does the equipment qualify for a rebate? Is utility preapproval required? Could the project be built in phases so rebate funds from the first room help support the next?
Recorded live at CannaCon Midwest 2026 in Saint Paul, this episode brings together Alexis Dubourdieu, Chief Operating Officer at What Rebates, and Tony Beman, Sales Strategy Manager at the Center for Energy and Environment (CEE) for a practical conversation about energy planning and utility rebates for Minnesota cannabis cultivation.
Alexis and Tony explain how LED grow-lighting rebates work, why available programs can differ by utility territory, and how cultivators can avoid common timing and documentation mistakes. They also explore incentives for HVAC systems, dehumidification, motors, fans, controls, and other energy-saving technologies.
But this conversation goes beyond rebates.
It's about helping Minnesota cultivators make smarter decisions before significant money is committed to a facility. From understanding available power to evaluating equipment and planning phased buildouts, early energy planning can help operators avoid costly surprises and build more efficiently for the long term.
Connect with Our Network
What Rebates helps businesses navigate utility incentive programs and identify potential rebates for energy-efficient equipment and facility improvements. Alexis and the What Rebates team work with operators to evaluate projects, available programs, and potential savings before equipment decisions are finalized.
Center for Energy and Environment (CEE) helps Minnesota businesses identify energy-efficiency opportunities and navigate qualifying programs. CEE's LED grow lighting rebate program provides a resource for eligible cultivation projects considering efficient lighting upgrades.
Explore CEE's LED Grow Lighting Rebates
The Canna Connect Show is supported by our growing network of partners, including What Rebates, CEE, and Evolve Payment.
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Every episode, Community Spotlight, and partner profile helps connect Minnesota's cannabis industry. Visit CannaConnectMN.com to explore interviews, resources, events, and the trusted organizations helping shape the future of cannabis in Minnesota.
Welcome to The Canna Connect Show
SPEAKER_02Welcome back to the Can of Connect Show season two. We are here live from Canacon with Alexi from What Rebates. Tony from CEE. This is season two of the Canaconnect Show, brought to you by What Rebates, our official Rebates partner. So it makes sense to sit down. Alexi, first off, how do you pronounce your last name? Du Bourdieu. Yes. We French. And you come you come from France. I do come from France, yes. Born and raised. Born and raised in France, Du Bordeaux. Du Bordeaux. Yeah, yeah. Tony Beeman with CEE. Way easier. Oh, you pronounce your name, Tony. Yeah. He's the B man. Yeah, yeah.
The state of LED grow-lighting rebates in 2026
SPEAKER_02Now you guys are fresh off your Friday seminar, the state of cannabis, I'm sorry, the state of LED lighting rebates in 2026. You know, the show relatively underattended, but that doesn't mean that the knowledge and the information isn't relevant. Right off the bat, what stands out to you within the Minnesota market when it comes to LED lighting rebates?
SPEAKER_01Well, what stands out is basically the program that Excel put together. Um it's kind of based on the one from Colorado, but exceptional program uh for growers to get a return on their investment, uh stick from the batch. So yeah, great opportunity. I'd say one of the best market um out there.
SPEAKER_02Hey everybody, Steven with Canaconnect. Taking a quick minute to shout out today's sponsor, CEE, that is the Center for Energy and Environment. If you're not familiar with CE, they're your one-stop shop for all lighting rebates. If you are in XL Energy Territory and you're a micro business, CEE is somebody that you need to talk to. Give Brad a call, give Tony a call, go online, one-stop shop, LED lighting rebates. They'll help take care of up to 60% of the costs associated with your grow and your build-out with the lighting. Uh, really nice people, great people to work with, huge sponsors of Canaconnect, and uh give them a shout. That's CEE Center for Energy and Environment.
Why utilities incentivize efficient cultivation
SPEAKER_02You know, one thing that stands out to me right away with the LED lighting rebates is that companies like XL would rather provide rebates and um than build new power solutions, right? Absolutely. So they'd rather incentivize you to purchase LED lights than have to build more power capability. Absolutely. That's fair to say. Yeah, I'm gonna do that.
SPEAKER_03I'm gonna say creating capacity through conservation.
SPEAKER_02That's right. That that makes a lot of sense. What Tony just said is creating capacity on the grid with a cap via conservation. Via conservation. And explain to me why LED is conservation forward.
SPEAKER_01Well, I mean, yeah, about 65% of the consumption in a grow and the ulticultural business as it's supposed to be LED in your in your room, right? In your room. So it makes sense full. You teach your companies, you kind of tackle this, you know, the that's uh energy consumption coming from the most energy war, like you know, um piece of equipment in the grow, right? And so I think the idea between reducing the stress for them on the grid is because again, like years ago, like with the last couple of years, there was a shortage of transformers as well, right? So it's still uh a huge lead time sort of reducing you know um that stress on the grid, I think, is you know why we all that we have those initiatives as well as environmental.
SPEAKER_02I've been told that cannabis cultivation facilities are uh like mini data centers, the amount of power required to uh grow plants indoors, yeah. Heavy usage of power absolutely.
How LED technology changed indoor growing
SPEAKER_02How does LED technology continue to become more efficient? What is useful as your industry?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, as just the technology, you know, just kind of what changed the game in the last, you know, 10 last month. Since the the uh arrival of uh LEDs, like the game changed quite a bit. Before, you know, a lot of goers they they kept um the day HPS and CMH because you know of the the spectrum and and the efficacy of the LED wasn't really there, but in the last five, six years, it came a long way. And now it's you know there's absolutely no uh in my opinion, there's no LEDs that you know and it's not capable of reproducing uh the spectrum of an HPS. So really the difference is the spectrum and obviously the heat coming from the HPS, but uh right now, like the efficacy of those new LEDs, they you know they surpass the um the HPS. And um within a within a facility beyond lighting, what else do growers need to be paying attention to? Oh well, I mean, obviously the the environment and so obviously um having like the HVAC and demificator, depending on where you are, obviously. Right. Uh but yeah, I'll say, you know, having uh the room um completely controlled, uh also like control systems, you know, sometimes adaptive um to the environment uh in real time uh comes a long way and even in energy savings as well. So yeah, those kind of equipment I'd say uh you know it's the the most important. HVAC, I'd say, is a big also a big piece of uh energy consumption.
Rebates beyond lighting: HVAC and dehumidification
SPEAKER_01And how can your team help work through Beyond Lighting when it comes to the HVAC session? Great question. Actually, we do uh custom applications uh through Excel. So to cover a piece of a part of the uh the equipment for HVAC, for the unifyers, um, and some of not not all utilities, but they let you do um analysis on you know the your building of the envelope of the building, basically, and then uh a lot of other equipment like fans or VFDs or there's uh there's a lot of equipment that qualifies and sometimes people don't don't know about them.
SPEAKER_02Minnesota
Navigating Minnesota utility programs
SPEAKER_02has 163 different utilities in the state. Where does that rank uh within other states comparatively? Is that more utilities?
SPEAKER_01Oh uh I'd say you know there's like about 3,000 in in the states, uh something well uh national, right? Uh but there's probably 1600 that you you've heard of. Okay, a lot, there's a lot of co-op as well. Uh, if you go to Washington, you know, there's a lot of PUDs, I think there's like you know, uh 40 of them, something. Yeah uh so it it really depends how they organize the the market. Um uh but I I'd say here there's a good concentration of utilities, let's say you know, Excel, uh AutoTel and um Minister Power, all those that's probably 90% of it, then the smaller ones they they're just uh more local, right?
SPEAKER_02And now you'll work with growers across Minnesota. Absolutely. The utility rebates, I'm sorry, the rebates that you can get from the utility provider is different for each utility.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Yeah, it's really based on your location and uh what utility you're using. And so based on that, we'll check your utility bill and make sure that you know we look at the right program for you and make sure we can maximize it based on the guideline and the requirements. So we can just go through the fine prints, see what we can you know uh get for them, and then what they need to do to achieve that, and that's what we we specialize in.
SPEAKER_02And what have what type of success have you seen within Excel Energy territory and and how have you collaborated with CE?
SPEAKER_01That's uh that's uh yeah, that's a great question because we we started really uh with Excel in in Colorado, where the market uh, you know, even the last five years was was really good. It's still still pretty good, and there's really good incentive there. So they kind of moved that uh strategy here, uh, and then CE came in and they actually have a a better like way of rewarding um uh incentivize people because they they reward and efficacy, and that's really what should what it should be, really, because um you don't want to incentivize, you know, um a measure that can be counterproductive in a way, and you know, pretty small stress on your grid. If you if you base it base it on uh efficacy is small because obviously we we want like technology and innovation and and saving energy. So yeah.
SPEAKER_02So the LED lighting rebate program has evolved from within XL Energy from Colorado to Minnesota, and that's what you expect to see as markets uh mature. Colorado was an early cannabis market, Minnesota is a second stage cannabis market. Um I'm picking up that there have been improvements made to the program from the initial uh where you started working with XL Energy. So it was only logical that you would find uh common ground to work within Minnesota and and serve XL Energy customers, and that's where your connection to CE came through.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. That's how we met. Um, you know, they they got they they administer this this program, and uh I mean we do a lot of growth and the first expense there is the lighting, right? And then they specialize on lighting, and uh with the program they came up with, you know, it was it's we realized it was really helpful for growers, right? And uh you're able to cover 60% of you know project costs, it's it's pretty, it's pretty big.
SPEAKER_02So um so my lighting bill, my lights uh are gonna cost me $500,000. You could, in theory, get up to 60% of your lights covered when you're doing a cultivation in XL Energy Territory.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. And in terror, you can get a little bit more because you you can factor other project costs to it, which are installation, uh, you know, so technically, you know, you'll still have to pay for something, but you can cover a bit more of that 60% because technically, you know, you you factor in other costs to your project, right?
SPEAKER_02So let's dig into that. So lighting is just lighting is the main expense that that people know, but then what comes next?
Buildout costs and phased cultivation growth
SPEAKER_01So well, well, you we you look at um in in especially in Minnesota, right? There's a lot of new construction, right? Even though you need to have a building that's been you know that's already built, and you can't really uh build a building from ground up, right? So you need to use a pre-existing building. You take that building and then you'll you'll probably you know um reshuffle everything in it and then uh put unit strats and like maybe put benches, and there's a lot that um inherent to this this specific like room where you'll spend money and we can build out absolutely and then you'll have unit strats, you'll have the electricity uh panels, and and and a lot of those can be factored in the project costs with um with C and Excel. Yeah, and so that's something that we use, and then obviously it'll cover a little bit more of your equipment, and obviously, if it's uh within the parameters of of those programs. So there's really honestly really good opportunity for for any growers in in Minnesota, and even without being with Excel or OCE, there's other utilities here that that have a good uh program as well, which is more like custom. So you'd be uh kilowatt hours save. It's a little bit different than the prescriptive, we'll give you an amount per uh per watt. Okay. Um, but it's still good, and then people you know should definitely be looking to it as well.
SPEAKER_02Something that I've been hearing from CE is that businesses that with uh micro licenses or even maybe mesole licenses, but with CE, it's a micro business program, are looking at building out their cultivation in stages, maybe starting with 1,500 uh square feet, 3,000 square feet, then 5,000 square feet. Good, better, best. Yes, step, step by step.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. And we see that with you know, we do also a lot of facilities in and uh across the country. And uh it's it's really you know um it's common now that people would do it in phases because they can can recoup a bit of their money, uh, you know, a little bit of trench every every few months, six months through the installation. So, you know, they they install lights and then they get money back and then it gives them money to pay for the installation of the other phases. So it's really common, and we've seen that a lot in uh in Colorado where people would do it in phases, maybe two, three phases, sometimes five phases are done, uh of like you know, 200 lights. So it's it's a good process uh to make sure you know everything is is uh taken care of and they can get some return investment right away.
How What Rebates manages the rebate process
SPEAKER_02How can what rebates help them along the way? Phase one, phase two, phase three. I know you're aware of it, but how do you stick with your customers?
SPEAKER_01Oh, so we have uh we have our own platform which uh ultimately works as a management platform for rebates. So the the customer can just go on the platform, check where we are, who we talk to, uh, who we send an emails to, and then we talk with a CE, the utilities, and they can you know check the process from the application to the check or distribution. So we have that full transparency platform, and we realize you know, that's not something that was lacking a little bit in the industry. So we have this uh platform where you can anyone can use our partners, uh the manufacturers or distributor we work with, or consultant, the consumer itself, we can even the utility uh um workers can just say it's like a CRM but uh full rebates. So that's what we we built at in-house.
SPEAKER_02Great, wow. And Tony, what stands out to you when working with what rebates?
SPEAKER_03That's easy. Yeah, they follow the process. It's gotten herky jerky, it's gotten bumpy. We're new to the space, so we're learning every day. Yeah, uh, Excel has added some new um new program requirements that we're all adapting to. Um, but I never get any pushback from the what rebates guy. I don't I don't get any um cost gouging. I mean it's there's things that we've seen already in our limited you know exposure to the market. And I just I'm a big trust guy and an intent guy. And so far, they've been the projects have all been streamlined, the customers' bench best interest is always in mind. Um so it just gives me a lot of peace of mind.
Common mistakes, deadlines, and preapproval
SPEAKER_02What are some of the common mistakes operators may make in the rebate process?
SPEAKER_01That's uh that's a great question as well. So here there's not really any mistake you can make uh because you choose equipment and then you install it and then you you get paid. And a lot of actually in and other utilities on Excel, uh OCE, uh you need to get pre-approval before buying your lights. So it's really important to kind of apply before and have all the information ready, presented to the utility, and they'll tell you, okay, now you can buy those lights because they qualify. And so if if you know, then they give you pre-approval and then you can uh purchase the lights. So timing time-wise, is that's one of the most important things that we see people are missing timelines or uh deadlines or and you know not getting pre-approval before are purchasing their lights. Um, so that's you know, it could be a huge hurder for people. So that we make sure that um, you know, people respect every guideline for each utility. So they're all different. And that's yeah, that's one thing is just really timelines in general that um people are not aware of. And how important it is, how important is it for cultivators to reach out early on in the process? Well, it's uh it is important again because of those timelines, yeah, to make sure that you know the timeline of the utility and how it generally works and it's it's advertised. Sometimes you know you can get, they'll tell you, oh, you'll get a reservation letter within one or two weeks, and then you get it for on four weeks, right? So everyone has timeline to make sure that their customers' timeline is aligned with the the utility uh general timeline as well. We help with that and make sure that you know we we're on top of of of everything for them. That's that's kind of where we uh we step in. And do you stay busy in mature markets as well? Absolutely. Oh yeah. Uh major markets, uh, I mean, well, you have California, for example, was one that uh but uh Colorado as well, we we're still quite active as well. Uh there's a lot of you know utilities, there's a lot of uh markets actually defacing and they're actually phasing out in terms of like reducing the incentive or just just phasing out, like let's say New York, for example, uh, which is a bummer because there's a lot of activities there, and then uh we can do a lot of uh good things, uh, but they just decided to kind of you know let the program go. So um there's new new markets like Minnesota, uh probably um uh um Virginia as well, will be one. Yeah um but yeah being being able to kind of you know uh track those those markets that have been successful in the cannabis space, uh yeah, it's absolutely uh primordial for us, and we keep like a good uh benchmark on those as well. Right. Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_02Tony, I had a question for you. So it's June 2026. Lighting rebates right now are very good. Right.
Why timing matters as incentives change
SPEAKER_02How important is it for Minnesota licensees right now in the cannabis space to be considering their rebates this year?
SPEAKER_03It's a challenge. Um, you know, in my experience, you know, you know me, I came from XL Energy, then been working in lighting, been doing conservation since college. Rebates never go up. That's the reality. LED will soon become the baseline, yeah, both in my normal world of commercial lighting, both in my grow lighting world, right? Uh so now is the time. And it's not I don't mean to be presumptuous and assume things, but uh I rebates are not gonna be higher next year. They're not gonna be higher the following year. If anything, they're gonna be lower. Right. So if you have the ability and this comes back to the phasing, you may not be ready for everything. Right. Let's start now. Let's harness these rebates before they go down, if they do, yes, and capitalize on phase one. Use that funds, those funds to reinvest into phase two, three, four, you know, give it get started. We have uh we I'm helping to get out up north. She has 17 fixtures. I don't care. Right, the minimum rebate we can offer is five bucks. I'm happy to help. Right. It's a dollar amount now lighting. Let's let's get that money coming your way. Let's get those energy savings coming your way. Let's take a bite off the the Apple now and let's get started.
SPEAKER_02Take advantage of what's what's in front of you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, big or small. Absolutely. And just to um to add to this, um, let's take Colorado, for example, with XF. Uh two, three years ago was one dollar what installed, they went down to 70 cents, now it's 50 cents, right? So we can, you know, we can probably you know uh forecast the same thing happening here. And again, because those incentives, they're here to incentivize new technology, such as LEDs, and again, yeah, at least they won't be new tech new, they're not new anymore. Yeah, right. So obviously, yeah, they've they'll they'll probably uh go down and to acting now is pretty is the smartest way of doing it, yeah.
SPEAKER_02What's changed in Minnesota? What's getting phased out right now? Brad had mentioned something a little bit recently about uh a ban of some kind. Can you speak a little bit more to the lights that are being phased out in Minnesota?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so in my commercial lighting hat, or with my commercial lighting hat on, all fluorescent lighting, so linear fluorescent lighting that you see everywhere, um, you can't purchase it in the state anymore. It's it whether that's online, in person, anything like that. So we have a lot of uh customers that are scrambling. Uh, I think about the dispensaries, and if they're inheriting another building or an existing building with fluorescent lighting, give us a call. Uh, don't try to find some fluorescence that work. You're, I mean, odds are high you go into a new space, lights are burned out. There's a pretty quick decision you have to make. Get us out there quick so we can analyze the existing lighting. We'll build you a rebate, we'll help you. We can cover in commercial lighting, we can cover up to 75% actually. So the bonus with a bonus that we have going on right now, it can be very economically buying.
SPEAKER_02What would you say to dispensary operators, dispensary retailers that haven't reached out to CE?
SPEAKER_03Mnce.org backslash customer application. Fill it out. We'll get we have six of us. We'll get out there within the same week. We'll help you. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's what I love about CE. They're so versatile within XML. Yeah, and they're uh really uh they're fast and delivering uh, you know, the the the pre uh pre-results and all that. So that's that's really good for the grower as well.
SPEAKER_02They're focused on the customer, yeah, right. Absolutely. And so are you. Uh the first time I called you was uh off a recommendation, I believe, from CE. Uh-huh. Uh, I left a voicemail.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. You called me back that day. No, yeah, absolutely. That's you know, that's one of the things in this industry is that you need to answer your phone, right? And then it could be day, night, you know, weekends. Yeah. And that's what we do. I mean, like the customer is king, uh, especially when you you you have a service like ours. So you need to make sure that when uh the customer is calling you, then uh you answer the phone. And that's really important to for us, yeah.
Alexis Dubourdieu’s journey to COO
SPEAKER_02Talk a little bit about your journey to COO of the company, yes, right?
SPEAKER_01You're a hardworking guy. Yeah, I started um in the sales, um basically just uh in this as a sales uh director for the company. Um and yeah, I guess you know, we when when I started, it was about three, four years ago now, uh, for the company. Uh we actually integrated Rebase to one of our groups. And so at at the beginning, I was just you know working with the sales team, and then after after quite a just uh probably a year, uh realized that I was you know managing a lot of those the operations as well. And so that's you know naturally came in as and uh became you know the CEO of the company and overseeing like the operations. Uh but yeah, the journey was uh was great and honestly, you know, it's super happy to be part of this space and uh and uh really grateful that I've met the people you know I'm up with now. So yeah. How large of a team do you have at what rebates? Right now we have uh well, just about at the office, we're about like uh I'd say 35 people, but we do have you know accounting and marketing, uh HR and all this, but and the sales team as well. Yeah, um, but really with the engineers and the sales team would be up at like 15 dozen people, uh I'd say that do you know?
SPEAKER_00No, no, no, yeah. I wish uh not yet, not yet, but uh someday we'll do next year.
SPEAKER_01But we know, but uh 12 dozen a dozen people that works on on rebate does as well and undo like all the analysis and uh you know rebate it can be quite straightforward when it's like prescriptive and it's like okay, you get dollar what, but sometimes you need to kind of do models, um, HVAC models too. Uh so it can be time consuming as well. So you need to have engineers and people to do that.
SPEAKER_02There's only about seven to ten percent of total licenses online, and uh and maybe maybe not every license will come to fruition. Yeah, but if folks are still very early or brand new, what
Equipment planning without overselling the grower
SPEAKER_02rebates can provide a lot of solutions.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Yeah, we can you know we're kind of a that's what we wanted to do, is be like a one-stop shop. Uh where you come in and we do designs, we do uh, you know, um run budget pretty much, you know, everything when you you have you want to start a facility. Uh we try to to work with we have partners with distribution companies, we uh with manufacturers, but also kind of incorporate into our structure vertically. Um we we do have like uh HVAC consultants uh working with us. Um we have maybe Coco or Nutrients, you know, we work with uh advanced nutrients with distribution company like elevated. So we do have you know uh an ecosystem that we built that um we rely on, and then we believe that you know the professionals in in the space and the the end goal obviously is to to help the customer and to provide a solution that is um that is tattoo as they need.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely. That's great to hear. It's another reason we enjoy working with them because they can help pH vac and the dehumidification. And yeah uh you remember we're manufacture neutral, we're vendors though, right? So are they, yeah. But absolutely no, when I send somebody to Lexi, they're not being told this is the one way to start your road. It has nothing. Here's your option. Exactly. Here's the pros and cons. You know, we're having to build models based on multiple manufacturers, that doesn't bother us any. Um so I like that instead of just a one-path success.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and and to add to this, actually, like you know, most people they come in and they already had somewhat somewhat in mind, right? They're already like, I want to work with this brand, with this brand, yeah, and we're not here to kind of like you know, shoot down to that, switch them on anything. The idea is just work with what they have in mind and then make it work.
SPEAKER_02That makes a lot of sense. What should operators absolutely avoid before talking with the experts?
SPEAKER_01Um, well, probably just do it. Well, I mean, you know, no a lot of people sometimes I even tell them, like, you know, don't even work, I love them to choose to do it because it's quite simple and like you know, you can do it on your own. Uh, there's little tricks and trick uh tricks here, obviously, but um yeah, really uh kind of doing it without you know looking into the parameters. It's like you sign a contract, right? You just want to know what the fine cons says, and then that's what we You right. So uh always good to just have a talk at least to understand where you want to go and uh talk to someone that we do that that's what we do, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we we specialize in so um because you can fill out a rebate yourself if you are versed in it, but absolutely what all goes into getting at a rebate, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, again, yeah, you know, the timelines uh and making sure that you know all the the numbers checks out and those kind of things, and then but getting pre-approval when you, for example, if you want to do like again, Excel is pretty straightforward, but if you go to your kilowatt hour save, like kind of calculations, you have different ways of calculating those things against HPS, against you know, uh the PPFD methods, and you have different ways to calculate it to optimize those, and utility will accept it or not. So that you that's what we do. We negotiate with them, we're trained with the engineers, and we become trade allies, and then we know how to work with them the system. And that's kind of like what we do. We just, you know, get trained by the engineers, make sure that we respect guidelines and that we can maximize it within the time, the frame of the UTT uh pro route.
SPEAKER_02Because one blind spot for me that we should call out because we are working towards serving the greater Minnesota area, is not every grower is in Excel Energy Territory. Exactly. In fact, a lot of the growers are in southern Minnesota, in northern Minnesota, central Minnesota, outside of Excel Energy Territory. That's why we're going to Brainerd this summer and Duluth later on. And so outside of Excel Energy, maybe it gets a little bit uh less technologically forward.
SPEAKER_01It's it's it's just the program changes in a way that uh you know it becomes harder for people to do it on their own. There we go. That we, as the the the case, um, because those calculations, they they they do comparison uh from HPS to LEDs, but since there's you know multiple uh equipment they can choose from, yes, and then you can use uh, you know, there's also baseline with the HVAC systems as well. So you know, calculating HVAC, you know, lows and those kind of things lays on the transpiration of the plan. It's a it's a lot of work. You know, that's what you need for to be professional to do it. Yeah, and that's what we work with, you know, um a team of professionals to do it with us and for
Dehumidifiers, motors, fans, controls, and new technology
SPEAKER_01so there's lighting, there's HVAC.
SPEAKER_02What else should what else can you uh administer rebates for?
SPEAKER_01Uh so it uh do you mean fires? Do you humidifiers, maneuvers, motors drivers?
SPEAKER_03Motors, actually, yes. Uh motors in the HVAC system, drive.
SPEAKER_01In the VS, actually, well, sometimes they don't qualify it. It's in Arizona. Some some um do you mean fires they don't qualify? So you can look into the spec sheet and actually uh rebate the motor based on its power. Um you have fans actually, sometimes they'll they you know they reward you for fans. Control system is something also that we see quite a bit um more in the base course, um, and that's really rewarding in general. Um so we also pushing technologies to our utility companies, make sure that you know, sometimes, for example, I was working on the wall that's basically just a tissue, and then it replaced like um um dehunification. So, like you could technically have a wall that's just a piece of tissue and replace 85% of your dehunification. So there's new technology like this that we can, you know, sometimes push to utility and be like, hey, look at that. You know, that uh that might be something it's warranted it's 10 years, it works just as good, but it doesn't consume anything. It's a wall, it's a wall. Yeah, it's like tiles actually. You can do it as a tile and or as a um just piece of tissue where it would absorb like replace um about 85% of your um demification. So it's you know, there's there's those types of things excite you, yeah. Right? Yeah, absolutely. It's great. You know, you can you have a lot of uh new technology coming up, and you know, it's uh it's it's quite um exciting, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, you've been at what rebates, there's been a ton of new technology entering space.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. Is it exciting, I mean? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no, I think that's what you know um we we we all want to see, right? Like innovation that goes, you know, for mess benefits to the grower and the the test. At the end of the day.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, it's so it seems like the most overlooked business expense could often be the lights. Oh, yeah, you know, depending on the size of the grow. But like 17 lights, I mean that's kind of fun to kind of kind of fun to work with somebody at that level too.
SPEAKER_03It's I told you last time, man. This is the American dream. I was telling Jeff every everywhere, they're bootstrapping it, man. I love micros.
SPEAKER_02There's a micro that's selling flour in the market that's grow that's growing in grow tents. Not sure. Yeah. I did that in New York as well. I did one in New York.
SPEAKER_01They were in a building in one house, and they have tents of like, you know, I don't remember this size of them, 10 by 10 or something.
SPEAKER_02Start you know, start where you're start where you're at. Yeah. I mean, that that is the American dream, right? You know, it doesn't have to be glorious from the beginning.
SPEAKER_01Actually, the the real reason for wine is because he didn't want to make uh he didn't want to invest any money in a building that wasn't his. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02It's just like uh Yeah, yeah, but uh it worked out good for him. I was in uh in Buffalo, actually, uh Greg Grove. You know, lightning round here, most under most misunderstood rebate myth. I would say I've heard this from Tony, free lights. Yeah, yeah, and and maybe the Colorado uh program, you know, went a little too far with free lights. So it seems like Minnesota XL Energy in Minnesota has rained it back. Yeah, but you know, 60 plus percent.
SPEAKER_01I mean 60, it's it's still uh exceptional, like dynasty. And then spending of the cost that you know, should you most again because it's a new market, most facilities are undergoing a major renovation in a building, and those costs they go high, you know. It depends if it's you're using um sometimes they do it in-house, so they can you know have it in-house and just actually build the hours to their own company, or they can use sometime, you know, um well, an electrician or plumber, and then you can factor those costs. So it depends. Sometimes you go to states where it's unized and it's 250 an hour for those kind of people. So like the the deal, when you add all those bills, technically you get free lights, but you'll still have to spend you know money and on everything else. So like it's kind of the you know, it used to be a marketing thing, kind of, but it's never been kind of like free because you do have spelling on the site, right? Yeah, but it's a huge benefit. And to go back to what you said about 17 lights, um, even Excel, like they do they have a residential one as well. Sure. Like eight lights. Yes, so it's pretty cool. Like, you know, I mean, you're just you know a caregiver, um, or you just have eight lights. Yeah, yeah, well, do you can get your lights, get a rebate on it, there's no post-inspection, they made it easy for people. Yeah, we make it agree. I mean, it's it's cool. Um, passionate and home grow.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, passionate homegrowers can can't like, yeah, yeah. Now, is that something that you've been kind of move them to Excel directly? Yeah, yep, you bet. Right. Because you guys are both on the commercial side of the correct. Yeah, you got it. But you can still tap in, right? You can still take advantage of the greater program if you're in Excel Energy Territory. And you know, practicing and having up to four or eight plants at any given time is a nice way to gain experience at home, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, I love that. Um, I mean,
Check incoming power before signing a lease
SPEAKER_02one thing every operator should do before signing a lease. Anything come to mind?
SPEAKER_03Well, actually, uh, yeah, that check the incoming power.
SPEAKER_02Yes, right. Actually, that's the power. Yeah, that's tell me more about that.
SPEAKER_03I know we've chatted about it in the past. So I don't know if it's true, but we've heard horror stories of folks signing a lease or purchasing a property, going through everything lights, HVAC, DHU, you know, every energy using you know component. They go to fire everything up and it blows a transformer, knocks them out of commission for three to six months, and a hundred thousand dollar bill to get it back up, upgraded. That's a real story that actually has happened.
SPEAKER_02So we're and transporters, transporters can take time to get installed depending on where you are in the in the market. You can check it out.
SPEAKER_03I'm always thinking energy savings, rebates, all that. I know I know nothing about you know the designers and the uh the engineers on staff, but as soon as we have a customer interest, we connect to what's called the XL Energy Builders Call line. Yeah, any of the whatever, however far your scope is defined, whatever your parameters are, um, getting that to Excel early and often just to see if you need an upgrade or not. It's very important. I think of that as like power conductors.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's also something we look at and then we weren't before, but now even in our platform, we have like the amperage of the transformers. We look at this because you know, people would like to have maybe 100 lights, but then if they have a two 200 huntbreaker, like you know, it's not gonna be possible, right? So we look at that, and then um we also look at you know, you need to leave that buffer of like let's say 20. You have a 20 hamb breaker, you're just using 16. How many lights are you going to be um able to connect to that um to your transformer? But HVAC as well, because you need to take into account HVAC, GMI fires, there's a lot of load, right? So look at the load that they their project, the load that it will create, and is it like viable? The transformer they they have. We look at this as well because we we we went through uh some bump bumps as well, and where people, you know, they order a bit too much, and so not to the point where it exploded the facility, but uh you know, they can power what half of what they they they ordered, so that's it. Then they need to get an upgrade, and then it costs them you know another 50, like 50, 60,000.
SPEAKER_03So it's kind of like you know another reason why we like Waziwed, right? Right, everyone's trying to sell lights and stuff. Yeah, these guys are trying to watch out for the customer that they won't make any money on checking service, you know what I mean? Doesn't change their process, but they've intentionally elected to incorporate that into their process, so it makes me happy.
SPEAKER_02That makes a lot of sense. So I mean it's more one-to-one, you're not trying to oversell the customer, yeah.
SPEAKER_01No, no, we are trying to make uh make sure that you know they can use the equipment they have, and obviously, because part of the post-aspection, and you need to have the lights powered and plants under that that those lights, right? So if you can power them, you know, everyone loses, and that's kind of what we're trying to avoid. Yeah, absolutely. And and the team at what rebates, what can you say about your colleagues at the team? Go uh well, terrible. Yeah, right, hateable. Uh uh, no, I'm really uh, you know, the team uh grew uh like uh again when you scale it. Actually, you asked me, you know, I was doing most of the calculation and and most of the the sales and everything. I'm I'm lucky that you know we found the right people and the people that um you know I'm I'm thinking about Abby and Ivan Mato and uh that you know, and my um sales uh manager. We have a great team of people, and then we're also friends, right? So it's kind of like you want to work with people that uh you like, and uh we we've been you know growing the company this way, and I'm really I'm really uh you know the team is everything in sure in a lot of things, right? So um I'm really uh grateful that uh we'll do that.
SPEAKER_02Well, off topic, but in in general, what do you think of the North American
Cannabis culture, industry trust, and the future
SPEAKER_02cannabis market as a whole?
SPEAKER_01Oh uh I mean uh I think it's uh it's great. I mean, you're you know, coming from France where uh we uh weed is still um illegal. Um it's you know coming to a market where it's not, and having seen all the opportunities and the great growers, like you know, when you go like um to I was talking to a bunch of people yesterday from the industry, they're like everyone in Berlin or uh you know uh in Amsterdam, mostly in Marie-Jane, they're excited about you know the genetics coming from California, and they you know the hype coming from products from the US in Europe is you know, it's crazy. People buying seeds for you know three seeds for $200. So, you know, that's absolutely insane that the hype there is around. Um, and you know, um it's legit legitimately, like I mean, you know, California, uh Michigan, those kind of markets where um mass, you know, they you have you have markets where they they have great product, they've been growing, you know, the legacy as well. Um is huge in the US and in Canada. So, you know, uh it's been what 25-30 years that you know there's this there's uh people in this space that are doing um amazing work for yeah, way way longer than that. But uh I think it's uh yeah, it's awesome. I mean it's an amazing market. Uh I hope like you know, Europe, and especially France, uh Tech Stata. They're they're close, right? They they they had the medical and then they shut it down, uh, which was a huge mistake. Um, I'm a huge advocate of trying to get uh rec obviously there as well, you know. But especially if France is one of the biggest like uh smoking country in Europe, right? You know, 65% of consent cannabis of the population.
SPEAKER_02So I wish we could smoke on camera here. Yeah, like no, the convention center, maybe not the best place for cannabis conferences, you know. Yeah, you know, getting out into making the growers feel comfortable, the cultivators feel comfortable. I think that's one of the hardest parts about cannabis events in a traditional conference model, right? Yeah. Um these guys are protective of their space of what they do. Tony, what has it been like to get to know growers and cultivators? Because, like, you know, maybe they don't feel trust with your nonprofit or with XL Energy as a whole. Like, how has it gone over the last few years in getting more comfortable within the Minnesota cannabis space?
SPEAKER_03We've had to prove ourselves from the first project to the most recent project. We've had to, you know, we we know our message, we know what we're trying to get across, but we have to prove it. You know, I was just talking to Jeff when we're on our way to lunch, and I don't want any customer that's waiting on a rebate to not know it's coming. Does it make sense? Yeah. We're gonna we need to stay with them every so we're done. Yeah, we've filled out the rebate. We sent a text, so we're done. No, I want a personal phone call to every grower saying, Hey, check was sent on this date, expect it this date, so on and so forth. Let me know when phase two comes up. I wish you the best. We're here anytime you need us. Amazing. Yeah, you know what I mean? Right.
SPEAKER_02I walk the walk. I last night at the after party, I heard from a social equity applicant that is uh waiting on their loan from the social equity loan uh administrator. Yeah. 14 weeks and and they haven't gotten an update and they're paying for a building. Yeah, and the OCM is on board with them, the city is on board with them, but they can't get fully approved until the build-out is done. But they need the the loan in order for the build-out to take place, and it kind of is starting to feel a little bit like the New York market for this guy because he's 14 weeks in and he's paying on his on his loan, his property. Yeah. And I feel for the guy because we want to talk about all the positives within Minnesota Cannabis. But if if I'm if the most heartbreaking, I think if the most heartbreaking story told to me last night at the after party is a social equity applicant that's nearing bankruptcy, right, and they've told him Tuesday is now the the magic number for when he's gonna get his loan, we have to call these things out because if the social equity applicant is nearing bankruptcy, this is unacceptable. Where are the priorities at? If if so if CE wasn't getting back to a customer for weeks on end, that would happen. It would be unacceptable on within your team. So transparency and communication isn't on that working.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely, especially um, especially in the cannabis market, right? Especially in the cannabis market. I agree, I agree with that. It's um yeah, that's what made the platform and all this, you know, make sure that people are aware of what we're doing for them and also where the process is. Sometimes you know, when you rely on you know third parties and utilities, sometimes you can have delays, and it's important for people to know what um what's going on here.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. No, you know, what rebates continues to show up in the space here in Minnesota. How do you guys handle yourselves and how do you bring more integrity to the overall rebate process compared to the rest of the space?
SPEAKER_01Well, that's that great question, actually. Well, we work with you know with the partnership we have, and then most people in this industry, you know, could be with utilities that we trade a lot with and or distributors or manufacturers that we work with, you know, they after years working with us, they know that you know the transparency and the way that you know we don't burn bridges. Uh that's where they keep and you know keep working with us. And then that's something that you know, being able to trust your partner and make sure that you know they're not gonna do something you don't want behind your back, is is goes a long way. And then uh that's what we've been focusing on since the creation of the company uh with our team, and that's why I'm I'm again grateful for this because like we're all in the same mindset and helping the customer and you know being as uh transparent as we can for our customers, the companies pay our bills, but we work for the company.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Tony, a couple of things that you're excited about as we look towards the second half of the year. You guys have some really cool uh case studies coming out soon. Like, what innovation have you seen in the Minnesota cannabis industry in a short amount of time?
SPEAKER_03You know, Brad's gonna hate me if he ever listens to this. Um, but we spent a lot of time to help growers with the dimming base, the dimming energy savings. Um basically, I mean, you no operator is running at 100% on week one with a thousand watt LED light. That's not factual, right? Yeah. So what we do is we calculate their week by week savings by dimming, if that makes sense. And so it's adding 10 to 20% additional savings beyond just an HPS to an LED. And it's really nice to be able to help customers realize that. I think when they see that supplemental report that we generate that has the greenhouse gas emissions, that has the cars removed, I mean, has the annual savings. Yeah, it's it's a big deal. It's making a big dent with these customers. I love it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and what does dimming mean to you when Tony Angel says that? Yeah, those dimming strategies, like you know, they they they have if you want to reduce your operational cost, uh, this is definitely something you need to look at, especially depending on the strain you're you're you're growing, uh, different requirements for your plant. Uh, you can definitely dim that, you know, when you have you're comparing apples to apples, you have a 1080 watt HPS that is basically at this, and you put an LED, that's a thousand watt. But the LED is as an efficacy that's twice as much as the the the the uh the HPS. So you don't need that amount of photon to go to the plant, right? And so that's why you know having a dimming schedule will reduce your uh OPEX, obviously, and but it will you can't really blast your your you know put more than 1500, like some people do, but um yeah in 1500 PPFD uh Azure uh canopy is pretty much you know uh like the max. So you if you put like an HPS that's 3.2, uh sorry, an LED that's 3.2, uh right above your canopy, like 36 minutes, you're gonna uh tip your your plant, well uh bleach are your your your tops. So just little little um biology things that you need to just uh obey for.
SPEAKER_02Uh do you pay attention uh with where we're going on schedule three and the the potential changes to the industry?
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, uh it could be could be, yeah, obviously that's something that everyone should be looking at. If you're in the space, I mean having access to your banking system and uh you know being able to uh FinCEN, yeah, yeah, credit, all those set uh it's huge. Uh let's be honest, like you know, being in this space and you know, dealing with banks and and VCs. Change the game. Change the game, yeah. I mean, uh, and you know, reducing your we're gonna get 30% margin straight up, right? So I mean it's also something that uh uh in terms of capital, it's it will be interesting. But yeah, many for the access of capital, right? I think it will be uh a huge game changer and uh looking forward to it. Hopefully it happens uh sooner than later.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, by the time this episode comes out, hopefully the ALJ hearings have done well and we're on our way towards uh schedule three for the adult use space. I mean, I'm I'm generally optimistic. Minnesota has been able to have more of an optimistic approach. Yes, there are some heartbreaking stories along the way. However, I think we're primed for a great market here, and I think the next couple of years will be very fruitful for Minnesota. I agree. And I'm looking forward to continuing the relationship with both CE and What Rebates. So appreciate you being on the show today. Thank you. Thank you for having us. Good to see you, bud. Great to see you. We'll have the What Rebates and CEE links in the description. We appreciate you watching the Can and Connect show, and we'll see you next time.
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