Ep 23: Music Therapy's Benefits for Babies and Families

Kathleen Summers joins Alex and Lacey to discuss how music can be healing, comforting and therapeutic. If you want to learn more about Kathleen or work with her for treatment you can find out more about her here. 

https://www.bpmmusictherapy.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:04

Welcome to Doelets Unhinged, the podcast where we tell the unfiltered truth and disrupt the accepted view of modern birth and parenting.

SPEAKER_01 0:12

We're your hosts, Alex Shaw and Lacey Morgan, here to cut through the noise, share the stories no one else will, and empower you with real talk that's equal parts honest, funny, and unapologetic. Let's get unhinged. This week uh we had two births. Um it has been a week. It has been it's been a week for sure. It's a we say that every week. It's always a week.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

It's always a week, but some weeks are like extra at first.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

So we had a mom who uh I remember so distinctly in her prenatal. We were talking about birth and her shoulders were creeping up closer and closer and closer to her ears.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

We've had three.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

We've had three in the last no.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

Yes, maybe three, because I needed to ask you about this anyway. I'm pretty sure. Okay, now I know who we're talking about because I thought it was someone else. We have had three.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

Okay. Okay. So uh we so this mom uh during her prenatal, her shoulders were just creeping, creeping, creeping up closer and closer to her ears. And I called her out on it and I said, you know, like what's going on in your body? Like, what are you feeling and experiencing? And we talked a little bit about it, but it seemed to me like she did not, she was not fully releasing and fearful what her fears were surrounding childbirth. And so I think um there was some worry in my mind about her postpartum or her birth experience. But when we went for her second prenatal appointment, she looked different, she looked more relaxed, like she was coming to terms with the idea. And I was like, okay, all right, she's gonna be okay. But when I got to her birth, I was just so in awe of the power of her mindset. This family was very faith-based, and uh she prayed to God and leaned on Jesus and reminded herself that she was not alone in this process. And I remember just continually telling her that you know she was being held in the hands of God and that he would carry her through. And she she leaned into that and really allowed it to be so beautiful. So they told us in the morning that she was having some inconsistent contractions, nothing really which we said, ignore it. Yeah, we're like, honey, you're not in labor.

SPEAKER_02 2:55

You're not in labor. Uh because she was like a week past this isn't labor.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

Because the first step, especially when you want to go unmedicated, but even if you just want to delay an epidural as long as possible, the first step in labor is deny, deny, deny, ignore, ignore, ignore, and gaslight, gaslight, gaslight, right?

SPEAKER_02 3:18

All three words apply.

SPEAKER_01 3:19

The first step, ignore, deny, deny, ignore, gaslight. You deny it until you cannot deny it anymore. You ignore it until you cannot ignore it anymore, and then you gaslight yourself that this is not that intense, and it'll fizzle out. Yep. And so lunchtime comes around, and uh sh uh early afternoon, sh they reach out and they say, Oh, she's in a five-one one pattern. And I get on the phone We're like, No, she's not.

SPEAKER_02 3:48

I'm like, she's this is way you've been in labor for three hours, girl.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

There's no way. And and technically not clinically in labor. Definitely not, right? Uh, and so I get on the phone and I'm timing the contractions, and she has a 30-second long contraction. And I said, So you're not in a 5-1-1 pattern because now the clock starts over. The clock restarts as soon as you have a contraction less than a minute. Yes. And but I'm on the phone with them because I want to hear how labor is going. And uh just for fun, I'm gonna share what was happening in the background of my life. There's so much, so much. So phone support is so important in our work, right? Because it allows us to be present and support our families while the families that we are hired by, while also helping our own families. Correct. So that morning I had woken up um and I had a client, a past client, who are very dear friends of mine. Um, we've been together for three babies, and I saw that they had posted that they were prepping for their upcoming move. And I said, Oh, if you need help with the girls, just bring them over, and I would be more than happy to, you know, keep an eye on them.

SPEAKER_02 5:09

I forgot about that.

SPEAKER_01 5:10

I already had a house full of children. I had my own three here. Andrew had his two here, and then they brought over their two little girls who are four and six months.

SPEAKER_02 5:19

Oh my god. I was like seven kids here.

SPEAKER_01 5:22

I was like, listen, I've got a lot of seen hands. Oh, and Jocelyn had her uh best friend Catherine here.

SPEAKER_02 5:28

So oh my god, there were like eight or nine kids here. Right. We had eight.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

We had eight kids. Um, and I was like, oh, bring bring the bring them over. I've got I've got a bunch of teenage hands that can help. Yeah, I've got little kids who can play. Like, we're gonna be great. Oh my god. And so uh they bring the girls over, and now everybody is plowing through the food in our house. So Andrew volunteers to go and to the grocery store and buy some fruit and whatever to feed all of these kids. Now I'm on the phone with our clients. Oh my god, and uh his daughter has an accident in her pants, and so I'm changing poopy pants while I'm coaching mom through contractions. Oh my god. I'm unmuting to like take a deep breath and remind her, release it. She can do this again. And asking questions about, you know, how is how's she feeling now? The contractions are going from an active labor pattern, which is like three to four minutes apart, to now two, two and a half minutes apart. Yeah. And I'm wiping poopy butts and muting myself and telling the kids to shut the front door. Oh my god. And then Andrew's son goes missing and someone tells me that he's over in the unfinished part of the mill.

SPEAKER_04 6:46

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

And so I'm like trying to figure out where he is. Turns out he was with one of the older kids, so he was supervised, right? But now I'm trying to find him. I'm trying to start dinner because I'm getting worried that these kids are not gonna eat. Uh, you know, I've got all of this chaos going on in my life while also being calm and using my doula voice. Take a big deep breath in through your nose. Oh my god. And now exhale as slow as you can, right? Like I'm trying to do all of the things.

SPEAKER_02 7:18

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

And I text Andrew and I go, Hey, I'm gonna have to leave like as soon as you get home because this mom is progressing, progressing. And now she's saying that she's feeling pressure. And and I text my my friends and I say, Hey, are you okay with your kids staying with Andrew and my kids? And anyway, so they're thinking about wrapping up and coming to get their own kids, right? And and I'm just in this like chaos and mayhem and and all of these things going on spiraling around me. But being on the phone with this family, I feel this sense of just pure bliss and calm, right? Because she is doing the world's most beautiful thing, yeah, right. Bringing this baby into the world. And uh I get to the hospital and I'm like, hmm, things have slowed down and spread out, so maybe we're not as far along as I thought. Right. And it turns out she's six centimeters, yeah. So from two o'clock to eight o'clock, six hours, yeah. Mom went from I'm not sure you're in labor. I think maybe this is like a funky baby position to a baby in her arms in six hours.

SPEAKER_02 8:41

As a first-time mom.

SPEAKER_01 8:43

She pushed for like 30 minutes. Yes, yep. Unicorn. Right. And and so I always like we want to prep our families for the the marathon, right?

SPEAKER_02 8:55

Like that is likely going to happen because she is a unicorn. This does not happen to the majority of first-time moms.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

But if you listen to the stories that we've told on this podcast, there's been a lot of unicorn moms, I know, right?

SPEAKER_02 9:11

Even in an induction.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

This family used mock subbestion religiously. Yeah. Uh, they did the sacral fanning, and I truly believe that that is why she dilated. She went from like, girl, you aren't in labor to full-blown, you're in active labor. No, honey, you're in transition labor. Oh, you're pushing. In a blink of an eye. And then I also did um sacral pressure points that are known to uh improve dilation. Uh, so there are four holes in the sacrum. And if you Google a picture of the sacrum, you can see the holes. There's four on each side. So there are eight total holes. And if you stick your thumbs in them, or if you can stick three fingers in them uh on each side, right? So you could do like the top three uh with your middle pointer and uh ring fingers, you can you can kind of get into six of the holes. Uh so I did that while I was there doing labor support for them. Uh and whether it was the mox abustion, whether it was the sacral pressure points, or whether it was just her physiology or her mindset and trust and releasing fear. I don't know what it was, was it all of it? Whatever it was, worked so beautifully for her. And she birthed that baby like a champ, and her partner was in it by her side, uh, whispering things into her ear, looking at her with so much love and and just so much joy, and he was so proud of her.

SPEAKER_02 11:03

He uh he puts the other it's competition, and they're buddies. The other dad who we're gonna have. I I'll keep the names to myself until we have him, but they are friends, yeah. And they were both like men of faith and phenomenal support, like the some of the best we've ever seen in terms of support. Like it was, yeah, it's been amazing to see some of these dads.

SPEAKER_01 11:29

I think it makes such a difference in experience.

SPEAKER_02 11:33

It does having the partner who is not afraid, who believes in you and um protects you, stands up for you, is your voice when you don't have one, because at some point, especially if you're going unmedicated, you do not have one.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:49

Like, I mean, like you do, girl, but like you don't, because your prefrontal cortex cortex shuts down. So your speaking abilities kind of go to the wayside.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

Well, and your your thought process, right? Like your ability to kind of weigh out the pros and cons. Um, yeah, I was just so so impressed with them. Uh, I had wanted to read a text that I had sent them. Yes. Uh, because it was very early in the morning and I was well, early for me. It was not early for the rest of the world. Um, but I wasn't really awake and I don't know where this came from. This was after? No, that in the beginning when they first texted us that they were in labor.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

Okay. You've been gushy ever since.

SPEAKER_01 12:31

So oh my gosh. I I really have. Um, but I could tell, like, I don't know what it was about the text exchange that we had had with them that morning, but I was like, she's nervous. I could feel it in my ghost, right? And so I texted her this. I said, the first time is a journey. You are walking into an unknown forest. In the beginning, there is a path. The trees are not dense, but as you move deeper, the path becomes less clear. You have to listen to the forest for guidance. You have to trust your feet and your heart more than your head. You will walk deeply into the depths, you will have moments where you are unsure. You will certainly wish that you had not entered. But along the way, you will find something you never expected, a new version of yourself. The challenge and effort is worth it. You will come out on the other side, better, stronger, more confident. All you have to do is keep walking. You are strong enough for whatever is ahead of you. You are in God's hands, you are held, guided, and loved. There's nothing to fear. It is going to be intense, more than you can fathom. But fear is not part of the process. Every sensation is power from within you. Your job is to trust God and your body. And her partner, I hope they don't mind, but I'm gonna share this too. He said, and in this unknown forest, you'll start to notice there is a really handsome and successful bear who is running around gaslighting you about your journey through the forest.

SPEAKER_02 14:08

Yes, coachable dad. Oh my gosh, coachable dad, throwing the humor in there, right?

SPEAKER_01 14:13

It was so beautiful, and then I get to that berth, and he is wearing a shirt with a t-shirt with a bear emblem on it, and I was like, Did you do that on purpose? And he's like, What? And I'm like, Your shirt, and he's like, What? And he looks down and he's like, Oh no, I've just been wearing this all day, and I was like, You have the bear on your shelf. I hope you brought your bear to your birth. So precious. Oh my gosh, it was. I don't know what it was about that birth. I I mean, there is something uh in me. I think I'm more connected to my emotions uh in the last couple of years, yeah, uh, and allowing myself to feel in a way that I've maybe suppressed in the past. Yeah, uh, I don't cry at most of the births that I go to, but in the last few years I've cried at more births lately than in all of my career.

SPEAKER_02 15:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:06

Uh, but I was looking at these two so in love, so in faith, and just doing this beautiful thing together. I started to cry. Oh my word. And then I'm like leaving their birth, and I just had like I was all kinds of ooey gooey soaked in oxytocin, just loving on these people and their experience. Yeah, beautiful birth this week. Oh, yeah, I love it. Precious, so good. Anyway, I'm glad that I got to share that story. I'm glad you did too. I'm glad you shared what you wrote to them.

SPEAKER_02 15:44

Yeah, I don't know where that shit came from. Me either, because you don't send that to me or anyone else.

SPEAKER_01 15:51

I just I was they're special. I was having a moment where like it was just flow. I didn't, I've never used that analogy ever before. It totally worked, and and I just it was very appropriate.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

You were in it, you're in the feels, and she clearly needed to hear it. Yeah, you know, and he did too. I'm so proud of her. So proud.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

Um yeah, I'm proud of all of the moms that have birthed this week because we had two others. We did. Yeah, and they all rose to the occasion and the unexpected, and I will say that the moms this week who've birthed, you're right, there were three. Yeah, um they each one of them was faced with unknown and unexpected circumstances, and each one of them looked at the options, yes, they took their time, made decisions that were right for them. And and I will say that I look at each one of our births this week and I I feel proud. Yeah, proud, like just so impressed by these moms who had these beautiful, very unique to them birth experiences, uh, and birthed their babies in their own way. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 17:16

Yeah, so proud.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

Yeah, beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 17:19

I the the one, the most recent one that we were at, she was listening to some like hymns of something. I don't, I don't know, but I remembered one of the song, or maybe it was like who the band, I don't, I don't know, but I then downloaded it. I was like, yo, this music is real good. It was very peaceful.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Oh, I didn't I didn't hear that, so I'll be interested.

SPEAKER_02 17:43

It was I'll share it with you.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

What a great uh kind of intro to our topic today, yes, which is uh music therapy and how it can be used for uh healing. Yes. So we're going to interview Kathleen Summers um on our podcast today, and uh she is a music therapist, so she's going to come on and talk to us about music therapy and its healing benefits. So excited. Yeah, me too. Let's do it. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 18:16

Hi, how's it going?

SPEAKER_00 18:19

Good, how are you?

SPEAKER_01 18:21

Wonderful. Wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

Of course, yeah, it's our pleasure. We're so glad that you were willing to come on. Yes. Uh so Kathleen, we figured we would have you give a brief introduction of what you do and how you got into it.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

Got it. Yeah. So I am a board certified music therapist. Um, what I do is I use music to address non-musical related goals. So music for clinical goals, whether that's psychological goals, social, emotional, developmental, we're kind of trained across the gamut to utilize music as an intervention and a tool in our therapy practice. Um, so we are trained to work in all different settings. I primarily focus on um pediatrics, mom's postpartum, family support, community support, and palliative care. So that's kind of where my wheelhouse is. Um, and I got into it. It's kind of a funny story. I wanted to be an occupational therapist in high school, and I didn't know music therapy was a profession. A lot of people don't. Um, so I had discovered it because I went to a local concert and there was a musician performing, and she shared a story about how she had been in an accident. And when she was in the hospital recovering, she had a music therapist teach her how to play guitar. And that's how she got into music herself. And yeah, it just like changed the course of her life. And I remember thinking, whoa, that's a thing. So I looked it up. Um, it happened that there was a job fair um not too long after that. And um, at that job fair, there was a music therapist that worked at a local school who was talking about music therapy. So it felt like the universe was pointing me in the right direction. And I switched past from occupational therapy to music therapy. And I was always into music. I always like played good guitar, I played piano from a very young age. In high school, I was like really geeky theater drama kiddo. So that was all music was my thing. So it was a perfect fit.

SPEAKER_02 20:40

That's amazing. That is awesome. I love that. I love all yeah, music therapy. That's amazing. I know someone that does dancing as therapy, like music and dance and like body movement as with with the music and dance. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

Yes. Yep. There's so creative arts therapy. There's dance movement therapists, art therapists, and music therapists. Okay. Um, I got to work on a team of creative arts therapists when I worked in the pediatric setting, which was amazing because we got to like co-treat and collaborate and it was so cool.

SPEAKER_02 21:10

That is so cool. I met, I mean, yeah, I I enjoy like pottery growing. Like, so art there, like, yeah, that's super cool.

SPEAKER_00 21:18

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of therapeutic benefits to all of the art. So I'm all about all of it.

SPEAKER_02 21:24

So cool. What a fascinating. Okay. So, like you said, pediatrics. So, what ages do you generally work with? Uh yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 21:33

So in pediatrics, um, all across the gamut, I worked with, I actually worked with mom, pregnant moms in the pediatric hospital I worked with because they had um prenatal care there for um like diagnoses that were like going to be some sort of complicated outcome, whether it is the baby would possibly be in an ICU setting in the NICU, or if um mom needed like a a Surgery before having the baby. So there were some moms that were in the pediatric hospital that I worked at. Um, so I there were cases that I was working with babies in utero, sort of by working with their moms and then all the way up through adolescence.

SPEAKER_04 22:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:15

Um, I did get like a specialized training in NICU music therapy. So in music therapy, it's so what like it's such a wide spectrum of clientele that you can work with. There's a lot of more specified training. So once people kind of identify their niche and their path, um, there's like neurologic music therapy training, NICU music therapy training, um, palliative care. So all different kinds, but I I did some additional NICU and worked in the NICU as well.

SPEAKER_02 22:43

That's awesome. So walk us through like what a session with a NICU baby would look like.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:50

I guess and everyone's different. So, you know, pick a story. Of course.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

Yeah. And I I miss this work so much. So I love talking about it because I'm out, I'm totally outpatient now. Okay. Um, but in the hospital setting, it's just so cool to bring music into it. It's such a clinical world, as I'm sure you know, and it can feel really sterile. And like to be somebody to walk in with the guitar just changes like the whole dynamic, I think, and the feel of an intensive care unit. But a session would, I would get referred by nurses or sometimes physicians, childlife specialists to come in and address goals that could be related to like a long hospitalization. So maybe a baby that's not getting a lot of developmental support, or if a family member doesn't seem to be coping well or is really struggling with like bonding with it because of all the stressors of the hospitalization, or if a baby is having a really hard time like with routine dressing changes that they might need, or some sort of like procedural support. Those are the reasons that I would get called in. So depending on why I was being called in, it might look different. But a typical session would be me with a guitar, um, using my voice a lot because that it's a very non-invasive way of connecting with a baby that that's not going to overstimulate them. Um, and then I utilize my guitar to match the sounds of the hospital environment to kind of create like a soundscape to prevent from overstimulating and like minimize the nox to stimulation of the beeping monitors and whatever rustling is happening outside of the room and all that kind of stuff. So to create kind of like a nice bubble um for the baby. And then within that, you know, I'll add a little bit more appropriate simulation, like maybe singing. I always incorporate um the family's preferred music. There's a lot of science behind why that's so important, especially for bonding. Yeah. Um, yeah. So it could be like me singing traditional lullabies and kids' songs, or it could be more incorporating like family's preferred, cultural specific music in this developmentally appropriate way.

SPEAKER_02 25:06

Yes. I mean, I would imagine because that mom and dad are probably listening to that, you know, when baby's inside. So it's like they are probably they react to that. Yeah, I would imagine.

SPEAKER_01 25:17

We did uh classic rock lullabies for my kids. Like all the classic class songs turned into like low-key baby music. It's so cool.

SPEAKER_00 25:27

Yeah, it's so good. And it's so cool for parents to know that like that matters and that they can bring that to their kids. Yes. And I think in the hospital setting, it's like often um parents like don't know what they're allowed to do or what's good to do for their baby, like quote unquote good. So being able to remind them like your voice is your baby's favorite sound. That's what they heard in utero. The music you played while they were in utero matters, you know, um, because you're connected to it, they're gonna be connected to it. So just kind of empowering them and giving them like the primary role in it was always my goal if I had the family members present.

SPEAKER_02 26:06

Yeah, that's so cool. Yeah, that's wonderful. Love it, love it. I'm a spin instructor, so my kids were listening to all sorts of things jamming out while I was teaching.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

And it really does take you like to the next level, I think. It makes all the difference.

SPEAKER_02 26:22

It does, it really does. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:24

You just sent me something about dancing, yeah, like music and dance, you know, processing uh your divorce, right? Yeah, um, and releasing through moves movement, yeah. Uh and I I messaged her and I said, I have not danced as much as in my entire life as I have in the last two years of wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

Wow, that's amazing. It's probably such a cathartic like release, and you're holding so much in your body that the dance is allowing that.

SPEAKER_01 26:55

Yeah, yeah, you know, when you live uh in a restricted space emotionally, right? I it restricts you physically, yeah. And uh feeling free and released. I mean, it's it's beautiful, yeah, right. Yeah. So uh I love this idea of music therapy. So for outpatient care, what tell us about that? Like, what does that look like for a family working with you?

SPEAKER_00 27:21

Right. Um, so I've been building this since the pandemic. It's slow to build. I think I think it's just because music therapy is so like unknown still. Um, we're pushing for like a state licensure and things like that that I think will help people understand it a little better. But the families I do get to work with, I'm usually getting referrals through um an outpatient palliative care program that reaches out to me and has me come in work with and work with a family of a child who has a terminal illness in the family. So I work with the whole family unit. Um, and it looks so different depending on the family, like what they want our time together to mean and to be for them. So it could be like a jam session, it could be like recording um the siblings making like a project together. Usually I do project focused work in palliative care because it gives us kind of like that legacy building opportunity. Um, I do heartbeat recordings. So I'll take, I have a stethoscope that I can record a patient's heartbeat with, and then I put that to music. That's really meaningful for the family. So they're always like integral and picking out what the music is, how fast it is, what it sounds like, um, how they want me to like adapt it or not adapt it. So just giving them like the steering wheel. So it can look really different. I've had a patient that didn't really want to record anything. She wanted to make her own album. So we got we made like a vinyl album of her favorite songs, and each one had like a specific story to it, and she got to share that with her parents. So yeah, just it's really is just me providing some sort of therapeutic support and presence and just like witnessing their family unit and amplifying it through music intervention and kind of creating like a cohesive product and process for them in our time together.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:25

That's awesome. And to have that after you lose a child, right? That because again, music is so healing for our soul, and to be able to hold on to that and and those memories that you created. There's just so much beauty in the work that you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 29:42

Oh, thank you. It's it's such rewarding work, and I really feel like privileged to be able to do it, even in this outpatient setting. And I don't get too many of those referrals, which is, you know, I I feel like I'm happy there's not too much need for that support. But if there is, I like to be able to um step in and like provide that at such a critical time for families where I think it's really hard to be present, you know, when there's so much to worry about. Um, and then kind of like in a in a different way, I like working with families postpartum in that really like critical bonding time. So um I went through my own difficult postpartum journey. So I think that's kind of like a sweet spot for me.

SPEAKER_01 30:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

So I run groups in different therapeutic spaces or community spaces for any mom and baby duo postpartum. Um, and we focus on bonding and again just like being present in that moment with your baby, doing developmentally appropriate things, but making it meaningful and individualized. And yeah, like using music that's important to them and it's really special.

SPEAKER_02 30:56

Yeah. Do you you touched on your postpartum a little bit? You were going to. Yeah. And then do you want to share some of your journey postpartum?

SPEAKER_00 31:08

Sure. Yeah. So I I actually had a traumatic birth. Um, I had a placental abruption and it was a complete whirlwind because I was working in the NICU that day and then left work early because I wasn't feeling well and wound up in the hospital myself. And actually, um, Adula, I credit to like saving my life because I called her um and just said, you know, I'm not feeling right. And it was my first baby, so I didn't know what to expect. I thought maybe it was Braxton Hicks or something. And she's like, you know, I think you should just go to the hospital to be safe. Um, and I'm so glad she pushed me to do that because I got rapidly worse very quickly. And in the hospital, um, they emergently um delivered my baby and I was under sedation. So it was a total whirlwind. I just like woke up and had a baby. Um, and my baby was in the NICU. So I went from like working in the NICU to being on the other side, literally, of the isolate. And it was so um like shell shock feeling. And despite being in that environment for so long as a practitioner, I did not feel prepared to be on the other side of it. And yeah, she luckily did great. My daughter got discharged after a week, but it was still a really tough just transition and getting um over the hump of like the anxiety and just loss of control feeling, I think that came from having a traumatic birth experience. Um yeah, that was something that I think it took me about six months before I got my own support, again, despite being a therapist and knowing about the importance of support versus hardom. So um, yeah, so I think that's why it's such a sweet spot for me. It's like I have the training in NICU and I know I know on an intellectual level the importance of bonding and the attachment, period. But going through it myself, it was so hard to like like allow myself to get like out of my head, out of the anxiety, and really just present with my own baby. So I like to create that yeah, the opportunity for others.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

Yeah. Can you talk to us a little bit about the science of why what you don't what you do, why does it work?

SPEAKER_00 33:31

Yes. Um, so I mean, you guys touched on a lot of like hearing sounds in utero. Um, I think that's something people don't realize that babies can hear. I think it's at 23, 24 weeks they're able to hear sounds. So that is like a really powerful thing for families to learn. Um, and to know, like, oh yeah, they do recognize your voice. It doesn't matter if you can't sing, you're still their favorite sound. Um, and anything that they were exposed to like was meaningful because it was coming from their family. Just something that I like to really loop in, like that cultural element is meaningful to the baby before they're even born. Um, and music is so cultural and it's just so um individualized. So that's really cool. And I think the attachment, like different things that are so evident through signs, like kangaroo care and um our natural inclination to like sway our babies to help them calm and self-regulate, all of that can be so supported in music, and it's much easier to um obtain, like with music supporting it, especially if you're in like a NICU or an environment that doesn't feel very natural versus a very calm nursery that you picked out everything in it and it has the comfy chair and you know, like everything personal to you. I think it it's hard to tap into all of those natural elements that we have as caregivers who calm ourselves and our babies. So music can help with that when there's additional stressors. Um, yeah, and there's a lot of science that shows the support just of music in general on increasing babies' oxygen saturation. So they're like taking in more oxygen when they breathe, um, decreasing their heart rate. So this is really helpful for babies in the hospital that are being stressed out by whatever procedures being done, or um, I used to do support during like eye exams for babies that were born prematurely. So they would have to get the retinopathy of prematurity exam. Um, it was like a critical thing and it was very invasive, but it was it needed to be done. So I would round with the eye doctors and provide um like that music simulation, gentle guitar and singing to help the baby stay calm during the procedure and minimize like the amount of rescues that the nurses would need to provide, or the amount of like periods of you know, um desaturation, different things like that. So, yeah, there's a lot of like great studies that support that specifically for NICU babies. Um, but in general, like for any baby, I think that music, like we you know, we see it all the time with lullabies and bedtime routines and stuff, it's just really like a natural way to help calm and regulate and transition from one time to another.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

Yeah, that's awesome. I when I was teaching, I would use bineural beats in my classroom, uh, especially when students were out of control. I would just put on the bineural beats uh over the classroom because we had speakers in our ceilings, and so I would just put it on in the classroom and I would go sit at my desk and grade papers for 10 minutes, and you know, the kids would just naturally kind of like gravitate back to their desk so they would settle down and you know, be kind of like calm and and then I would go back to teaching because I was never going to fight a class of 25 and try to get them all to sit and be quiet and listen, and and being grouchy doesn't ever serve anybody, and so I would just calm myself and calm my class and and we use that uh in our just parenting. Um you know, I'll do it with uh anxiety or focus or um anyway, you know, and like when I go for massages, yeah, I can I can never not hear the bineural beats in the massage music, right? So much of your massage that calms you is actually the music that is on in the room, more so even than the physical touch.

SPEAKER_02 37:52

This is giving me such good ideas. I'm gonna share this with my youngest teacher.

SPEAKER_01 37:57

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 37:58

That might help her wrangle her kindergarten class. Yeah, truly.

SPEAKER_01 38:01

It's like a study, like yes, I can't remember if it's the alpha waves or the idea. But yeah, the and and the different tones address and affect different brain waves. Okay. And so within 15 to 20 minutes. So if you're doing it over speakers, it has to be isochronic. If you're doing it in headphones, it does not have to be. Um, so she would just want to search isochronic. What does isochronic by neural beats? It has to do with how it comes out of the speakers.

SPEAKER_02 38:31

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 38:32

Because like your headphones, like some tones come out of the left ear, some come out of the right. Yes. And then your brain turns it into a single unit, right?

SPEAKER_02 38:40

Okay. Um, okay, so I'm learning so much. We love podcasting. But so like I think about that.

SPEAKER_01 38:49

I've had moms turn on uh bineural beats for oxytocin release. Yep, we said in labor, right? And that way they can boost their natural oxytocin. I haven't done that in a while, but yes, you're talking about this makes me think about that again.

SPEAKER_00 39:06

There's so many physiologic benefits to it. And you touched on something too that I think is really cool. Like you said, it helped when you were teaching, it would help you calm down, which is gonna help everybody else calm down and just be like create a better space. But especially for moms, like helping them regulate first, the baby's gonna pick up on that so quickly. So that's another reason I love to use their preferred music or you know, whatever is helpful for them in the music sphere, like soundscapes, whatever it could be. It's like so crucial for the mom. It's like the oxygen mask thing we say all the time like you got to take care of yourself first before you can take care of somebody else. But the babies really do pick up on when their mother is regulated.

SPEAKER_02 39:49

So that's a really good point, especially for the breastfeeding mom. Like I say that all the time to the first-time breastfeeding mom. Like, take a deep breath in, tell yourself to breathe through the chaos, right? Because sometimes for those first-time breastfeeding moms, it's like, how am I holding my baby and putting my breast in their, you know, my the my nipple in their mouth, and oh my god, like how am I gonna do this? And so it might be a good idea to like to recommend some music to help them regulate, because sometimes it's hard to breathe through uh the chaos that your body is feeling with your new baby and trying to breastfeed or just feed your baby, whether it's breast or body, whatever, right? So that's a really good idea. Maybe you start recommending that, like to help them because you're right, when they are regulated, it regulates baby, and so that might be another good one.

SPEAKER_01 40:39

Yeah, I could use some regulation right now as I watch my youngest walk through the house with the cat that she's not allowed to have in the cat in the house. It's Friday.

SPEAKER_02 40:52

It's Friday, podcasting from home. It's so fun.

SPEAKER_01 40:55

We we never record when the children are home because they literally make me crazy the entire time. It's great, it's so much fun. It's so fun.

SPEAKER_00 41:05

I love weakens, it's so much fun.

SPEAKER_01 41:11

Oh so, in the like you said that you offer some postpartum groups. Uh, what does that look like if you have different people with different backgrounds and different music tastes? And what so what does it look like in a group setting?

SPEAKER_00 41:28

Yeah, so I tried my best to get to know everybody's like individual taste and really to like make it a comfortable environment where they feel like they can express what their preferences are. Um, I do usually lead it like pretty structured at first, like kind of like a mommy and me music vibe. Um, and then with my own knowledge of like if their baby was premature or just where they're at developmentally, um, I'll adapt each song and intervention to be appropriate for them. And I might incorporate like some small instrument play. I have this really cool instrument I can actually show you. It's a um, it's called an ocean disc, and it um it is tuned to sound like the sounds of the whooshing in the mother's womb um while they're pregnant that the baby would have heard. So it's like replicating that sound. Let me just show you real quick.

SPEAKER_01 42:25

Yes, that's exciting. All postpartum ghoulas should probably carry it with them.

SPEAKER_00 42:30

Right. So yeah, it was made by Remo, the drum maker, and a music therapist, and Remo's wife, who's a physician, they collaborated to make this drum. Um, and they call it a disc because saying, I'm gonna bring a drum into the NICU turns a lot of a lot of physicians are like, huh? But um, yeah, we say ocean disc. And um it's yeah, it just makes that whooshing sound without it being too um metallic-y sounding, like a lot of traditional ocean drum sound, which I don't know if you're familiar with that, but it's not that kind of like alarming um ocean drum sound. It's just very like a sweet. It's just like it's very calm. The moms love it, I think, sometimes more than the babies, because it's just we all naturally calm to that sound. Um, so I'll incorporate stuff like that and I'll talk about it. I'll like explain to the parents like why that matters and um why the songs that you played when your baby was in utero matters and give them like that empowerment. And then um I try to give tips for like things that they can do at home. So depending on what Navigating, like if they're having a hard time during like diaper changes or getting ready for bed, ways that they can incorporate music into their routine at home and give that like individualized support while also just leaving a space for them to talk to each other and get some mom-to-mom support and ideas and yeah, like a community.

SPEAKER_01 44:24

It's so important to have a community. We have a postpartum support group, and you know, I think sometimes moms forget to prioritize themselves. Yes, absolutely. People have said, like, I don't have a village, and I'm like, Yes, you do, you just haven't built it yet. Right, right. Or the people are there, you're just not trusting them.

SPEAKER_02 44:45

Yes, and I I think that's a big part, and they don't want to ask for help, especially like mom, like right, women, moms, like we're we're in this, I don't know, like tie. Yes, and we feel like we should do it all all by ourselves, and we don't have to. Well, and that's the American mindset, right?

SPEAKER_01 45:01

We the ridiculous American mindset, yeah. We believe that we are only valuable contributing members of society if we are independent, right? And so asking for help is a weakness, and admitting that you can't do it all is a weakness, right? So moms don't ask for help.

SPEAKER_02 45:19

Yeah, we have chronic independence, yeah, and they feel like they don't have a village, but those walls will soon come down when they realize they can ask for help.

SPEAKER_01 45:28

Yeah, you you need and asking for help is important.

SPEAKER_00 45:33

And that's the nice thing about the groups that I that I have built. It's they've varied in the baby's ages, but it's really, I think, helpful for the moms to see um a mother of a three-month-old and how they're navigating it and kind of like see the future and what they're gonna be able to do and where they're gonna go. Because you just get in your own world and it's hard to get out of it sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 45:58

Yeah. Yeah. The moms that come to our postpartum support group are always surprised when they're like, Oh, you did experience that too. And you're on the other side. Oh, okay. So, like everyone who's telling me that it is going to get better, it actually does get better. The more times they hear it, the more that they start to believe that they too will be one of these success stories of people who kept their baby alive for a whole year.

SPEAKER_00 46:25

Yeah. Right, right. I know I remember getting to the year mark. I was like, oh my God. Yes. Yeah, yes. That's an accomplishment for the mom. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:36

It it feels like a huge milestone for so many people because I think you you spend that whole first year thinking that you don't know what you're doing. Right. And and believing that like yesterday was a fluke and today's gonna be the day that takes you down, right? And and you just keep going and you get all the way to that one year mark, and and you start to go, okay, like we did a thing, like best friend high five, like we got there.

unknown 47:08

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 47:09

Then you realize, like, wait, I actually have no, I still don't know what I'm doing. It does. Yes, it does feel less scary 100%. Oh sure. It's so funny. Parenthood is so crazy.

SPEAKER_01 47:21

That's incredible.

SPEAKER_02 47:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:22

What questions are we not asking you that you were hoping that you'd get to talk about today?

SPEAKER_00 47:26

I feel like you guys asked so many great, great questions. Um, I'm trying to think if there was anything. You really did a great job. Um, I guess one thing I wanted to point out is um like using music in a therapeutic way for yourself um is so important and so valid. The only the difference with music therapy is a another party helping to facilitate and then our implementation of live music can be really helpful in like, especially in like things like the hospital setting, um, where you have to be able to adapt and um like integrate elements of the environment into the music. It's kind of like a cool um specification to what we do as music therapists. But in general, I just love to encourage um moms to utilize music at home for themselves in any way that feels like it's helping them physiologically or psychologically, or you know, just getting like in a cathartic release. Like I'm thinking of like just screaming in the car along to like you're you know, for me, it's like Noah Khan right now. Like whatever, whatever it is. Um, yeah, it's all just so important. And yeah, it's I love talking about that and getting to know like each family I work with and like what music means to them and their family and their culture and how um to amplify what they're already doing, which is often so much um and so many things without even thinking about it, just naturally. So yeah, moms are amazing.

SPEAKER_01 49:11

And I think that everyone can benefit from it because when you think about uh things that are universal to the human experience, music has existed in every culture across all time, right? And babies don't have to be taught to bounce to the beat, right? Like when you play music, babies naturally wiggle and move and right, like they respond to music. And and I think about how uh tribal cultures will use beats and music and song in order to uh you know like trick, right? Like they they go to a different place, music and song and beats and and that experience. Yeah, we don't think about the healing components of music or the damaging components of music, right? If you're listening to angry music, it makes you feel angry. Uh right, right. And so I I just I think that everyone can benefit from that. So, as a music therapist, how does the music that you're using change over time during treatment?

SPEAKER_00 50:35

Oh, that's a great question. So, again, it would depend on the goals. Um, but I would I work in as much as I can of a preference, even if it's not like your typical, for example, because I work with a lot of babies and um like caregiver baby duos, even if it's not your typical lullaby, I'll still take the song that they'll request that's meaningful to them and try and adapt it. Um, so I might slow it down, I might take it from like a four-four rhythm. I'm getting a music talk, but to like a three-four, which is a more natural, like rocking lullaby rhythm. Um, things like that to just make it more appropriate for the baby and where the baby's at neurologically and developmentally, but still capturing like the meaning behind the song. So I don't like to like limit families to think of a song that would make a good lullaby. Like that's my job to make it a good lullaby, you know? Um and yeah, like over the course of time, I think if it's a developmental goal, like maybe the music that I would use would change to like help support um like a baby who's like learning, having maybe having trouble feeding. There's times where music therapists will co-treat with um um lactation consultants or like in the hospital speech therapists are often doing that work. So yeah, like the music. I would use music with like a specific rhythm to help support that um that sucking rhythm. So that might change depending on like where they're at and like what rhythm they need at that time, at that stage.

SPEAKER_02 52:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:21

No, we're over here like mind blown.

SPEAKER_02 52:23

I can even I I wanna I don't want to put you on the spot, but I want to like, can you uh sing us something? That's funny.

SPEAKER_00 52:34

Um, I don't know what to say.

SPEAKER_02 52:37

I a good lullaby. What's a lullaby? What's like a common lullaby? Like twinkle twinkle, right?

SPEAKER_00 52:44

Twinkle twinkle. Um, if I I don't know if you'll be able to hear my guitar if I get my guitar, but um yeah, we could try. We could try. All right, I'll try it. It's worth a try. Let me grab it.

SPEAKER_02 52:56

I think moms would benefit from here, you know, like it could be a part in this episode where moms scroll and like everyone calms.

SPEAKER_01 53:04

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 53:07

Okay, so yeah, twinkle twinkle's awesome. There's a lot of science behind Twinkle Twinkle because it's like in every culture there's like some type of similar melodic song. Um, so yeah, that's like a go-to a lot. But can you hear the guitar? Oh, sweet. All right.

SPEAKER_01 54:43

And and the shift in the melody right is how it like goes down. Like and the pause heels looking up from it though.

SPEAKER_02 54:52

Fantastic. Thank you, Kathleen.

SPEAKER_00 54:54

We loved it. Oh, I'm so glad. Oh my goodness. I tried to do something I do a lot, which is um it's called entrainment. So I'm like imagining, I was actually trying to imagine my own daughter falling asleep, but I will often play along to like the breath rhythms, and I'll like watch like a baby's chest and follow that at first to match where they're already breathing and then gradually slow it down. Um, because that that's like a big thing in music therapy. Like we want to match what people are feeling or where they're at physiologically in the music first, and then gradually move towards whatever we're moving towards goal-wise. So that's what we're trying to imagine. Everyone needs you.

SPEAKER_02 55:43

Oh my god. Everyone needs you. Like, oh my god.

unknown 55:47

That's really sweet.

SPEAKER_02 55:49

Amazing, amazing. Where can people find you?

SPEAKER_00 55:53

Um, I am on social media at BPM Music Therapy. If they're looking for a music therapist in general, there is the American Music Therapy Association website, and we're all over doing all different kinds of work. So it's not limited to just children. There's music therapists doing like really great work with people with Alzheimer's. There's a lot of science behind that, and um, people in nursing homes and Parkinson's disease and um mental health units, like all over the gamut. So yeah, because everyone's connected with music. I feel like there's a place for it everywhere, really. Amazing.

SPEAKER_01 56:34

We'll we'll make sure to get your information and put it in our show notes for anybody that wants to connect directly with you, of course. Yeah, we're so grateful that you came on today. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 56:45

Thank you so much. Thanks for all your thoughtful questions. It was awesome talking to you guys.

SPEAKER_01 56:50

Yeah, yeah, absolutely a pleasure for us. Um I'm just so excited.

SPEAKER_02 56:54

Blown away. Blown away.

SPEAKER_01 56:56

I love when people sing. I can't wait to have her on the team meetings.

SPEAKER_02 56:59

I know to share it with the postpartum goalists or we should have her come to the postpartum group. We're gonna put you to work, Kathy. We've got a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 57:10

Yes, I love all three. I could talk about this forever. So anytime.

SPEAKER_01 57:15

Oh, yes. Yeah, we're gonna do the thing. I'm serious. Um, okay. Well, cool. Thank you again. We're so very grateful for the time and for sharing this. Um, hopefully, uh people have learned something new today in a service that they probably didn't even know was out there. Um just the vast gamut of ways that you can apply music in your postpartum period. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00 57:41

Yes, thank you so much. Thank you both. Yeah, all right. Have a great day.

SPEAKER_01 57:47

Thank you, you too. Thanks. Bye-bye. That was good. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 57:55

Um so glad we had her do that.

SPEAKER_01 57:59

Yeah, it's huge, right? The idea of using music in your life um is such a you know, like we do it without even thinking about it. And even just the way she shifted the the sound of a normal common song that we all know, yeah, it changed it significantly.

SPEAKER_02 58:21

Yeah. It's very nice.

SPEAKER_01 58:24

Yeah, super cool.

SPEAKER_02 58:24

I fucking love when people sing. Um like this is so special. That was so good. Yeah, that was cool. If you love this episode, share it with someone who needs real and raw truths. Leave us a review and make sure you're subscribed so you don't miss what we're unraveling next.

SPEAKER_01 59:41

We're Alex Shaw and Lacey Morgan reminding you that your voice matters, your experience is valid, and you're allowed to do this your own way. Until next time, stay unhinged.