Ep 25: Vivi's Birth Stories

Join us this week to hear Vivi's self-declared "Unhinged" birth stories. From her first unmedicated birth in a hospital, to her three unassisted home births and an unassisted miscarriage, she shares how she followed the path less traveled by current motherhood trends. She shared some of her concerns with the modern medical model which led her to choose a "wild" birth. 

References to topics discussed:

Potential speech delay correlation-

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1485930/

Male fertility concerns with ultrasound- 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22971106/

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8083135/?utm_source=chatgpt.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Oh my god. I know. I've got so many people stop me. It's like crazy. You're like you should see the other guy.

SPEAKER_05 0:43

She said that. Dude, I can't even I can't even. The the hazards of motherhood. I remember Jocelyn whacked me with a baby doll. She was the top two, maybe, and she whacked me in the eye and I like had a big black eye going to school.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Yeah. I felt like to feel like the rage. Yeah. You know, and like just something happens, but for some reason it like I was so rageful that I became very calm. Okay, well, I just got whacked in the face. Yeah. And my kids saw it. They were like, oh, okay. That was like I felt like I was like closing out every word. Everything's getting thrown away.

SPEAKER_05 1:27

Yeah, that sounds like the response of a mom.

SPEAKER_03 1:30

Yep. I feel like we're always getting hurt as moms. Like it hurts. I'll have to cry. I feel like I'm always complaining that they're they're messing up my feet. Someone's stepping on my toes or jamming my toes. And that hurts. And I'm like the same thing, the rage.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

I would be like a little tired if I was like tired.

SPEAKER_05 1:52

Rage.

SPEAKER_01 1:53

Yeah. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_05 1:54

Yep. I was working with Amanda at Starbucks today, and I couldn't get the link that we're supposed to be using for the dualist to schedule with me so that because my calendar's separate from the business calendar. And my life is very busy these days. Anyway, and uh I was like, it's such a good thing that we're working in public because if we weren't, I would be losing my fucking shit. Right. Like literally losing my shit.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

Yeah.

unknown 2:24

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_05 2:24

And then I think about Nicole McNellis who has the Mom Rage uh like offerings, right? And she's doing all the research with Mom Rage. And I understand why. Yeah. Like I'm thinking, like, maybe I need it.

SPEAKER_03 2:40

Yeah. Did she offer scream groups? I tell moms all the time, I'm like, there's a primal screaming club in Downingtown. I've never attended, but there definitely is.

SPEAKER_00 2:51

I don't know how I feel about that.

SPEAKER_03 2:52

I would love that.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

Just go and just like I feel like I'd do that anyway. And I'd probably be doing a more remote location in Downingtown. So I've got the government.

SPEAKER_05 3:06

Oh, that's funny. Um awesome. Okay. So yeah, let's do this. We're so excited to have as a free birther. I think, like, you know, maybe how did you get on that path? And then um, whether you want to tell a complete story or you want to share like details from each one, I think is kind of up to you and close.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

I think your professors will be really cool to hear.

SPEAKER_04 3:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

Yeah, of course. Some some may say that I'm unhinged, but I actually think it's the opposite. I learned to think a lot all the people going to hospital are like a little unhinged for giving birth. So um that's that's that's my funny thing.

SPEAKER_05 3:53

Yeah, no, I I think that that's I think it's a really interesting perspective on, and we just had Rosa uh on a couple of weeks ago, and she shared her birth story. She chose to have a home birth for her first baby, um, which was kind of spurred on by seeing um the business of being born. And her husband said like she always kind of thought that she would have a home birth, but didn't think that it was like, you know, within her cards to be able to afford and whatever. And um and then they did. And she shared that she feels a little bit left out of like popular birth culture because she hasn't had the hospital birth experience. I and I think it's like she feels left out of this shared experience of birth that most people have had. For Rosa, when I think about what you've shared, uh, I think that she's missing out on that like universal experience of motherhood, which perceives to be the universal experience of motherhood, because so many people have babies in the hospital. Right. And and it is a time of connecting with other women. And if you are birthed in a way that is so different than others, I think that it can be really uh yeah, like it can be hard to feel connected. And I always try to remind people that uh like this idea of having babies in hospitals is brand new, right? Like for all of mankind, we've birthed on our own outside of a medical facility, and only in the last three-ish generations have we been birthing somewhere other than in the space where we raise our families.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

Yeah. And also, I would say she's probably like in the wrong circles because you know, once you home birth or free birth, you I feel like everything just kind of falls in line. Like all of a sudden, you can't just eat the same kind of foods as you're eating before because you're like, well, that doesn't really align. I'm not saying everyone's perfect, right? Um, even things like educating, you know, I homeschool, and you start getting into these different groups and you start to meet a lot of other people that birth the same way. So, you know, and then unfortunately, there is this shared rhetoric of birth is so terrible, it's so hard. And people really like to bond over their trauma. And when you don't come with that trauma, people feel a little like, oh, well, you're kind of weird, or like, I love that for you, but that's not normal, you know. And I'm like, I actually think it is, you know. Um, you know, so there are communities out there. I've often thought of starting like a circle for women to tell their birth stories. I obviously would love to focus on home birth, but I would never leave anyone out, but it's there. You just have to like seek it.

SPEAKER_05 6:54

Yeah, yeah. It's definitely, you know, I think that it's a shame that birthing in a hospital has been normalized and the abuses that come with that have been normalized. Yeah. I I actually saw a post uh yesterday where the woman said, you know, I'm planning to birth at this location. Um, do they have birth balls? And am I allowed to birth in a different position? Okay, I want to normalize maintaining agency and autonomy. Like, why have we normalized abuse and infant, like empatizing women in their birth experience? Am I allowed? Girl, you're allowed to do whatever you want, right? You are allowed to do whatever you want because it's your body and nobody has authority over your body except you. So, how has it become this, you know, expectation that we say, like, oh, you know, I'm giving all of the authority to someone else and asking their permission to get off of the bed or get off of my bed? I would love for people to start asking the question in a more precise way because language matters so much, right? Do they support birth in a different position? Are the physicians comfortable with birth in a different position? I want all pregnant moms to stop using the word allowed. So did you have your first baby in the hospital? I did.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

Yeah, so yeah, I can we can start with that. Yeah. Um, so I come from a bigger family. I have four brothers, and we were all C-section babies. Just having this idea of I'm gonna have a C-section. I never thought about birth. It was nothing important to me. It was not on my radar. I didn't even know if I wanted kids. I was, you know, traveling and everything. And then I got pregnant. And at the time I was a full-time yoga teacher. So I was already in a sort of alternative lifestyle. So eating a little bit differently, being surrounded by people that were into wellness and all that, but birth was still a medical event. I didn't really know anyone that had a home birth. Um, so I did have my first in a hospital. Um, but I do think that I was a little bit more prepared because I was already on this sort of natural path. So I took a few birth classes, I took Brittany McCullum's birth class and I started to learn about birth. I started to ask my mom a few more questions about why we were C-sections. And I remember her just saying, Oh, well, your brother's head was so big, he couldn't fit through my pelvis. And I was like, that doesn't sound like that's possible, but it's fine, you know. Um, so I was very educated about birth by the time I was ready to give birth myself. And I had started to hear different podcasts about home birth. I started to hear about just positive birth stories in the hospital, and I felt confident that I could give birth in the hospital unmedicated. It home sounded awesome, but it didn't sound like something that was going to be for me, right? It just didn't make sense to me. I didn't know anyone that had a home birth. And you know, this is what's where you go to give birth. I remember even talking to another yoga teacher, like, that's so weird. Why would you want to have all that blood and stuff in your house? Like, go to the hospital, leave it there, come home. It's just these people are crazy. Um, yeah, so I did have my first first in the hospital. And as much as you can prepare for your first, you can't prepare at all. So I thought I was gonna be this yoga teacher, I was ready, I had the affirmations, I had the breathing techniques, I was ready to go. And you know, I woke up on June 7th. So my son's birthday is just the other day, and I started to have contractions. And as you see as my stories go, once I have I don't have Braxton Hicks, once I have a contraction, it's on. So I started to have contractions, and I was like, okay, this is this is intense, right? This is pretty serious, right? Walking around my apartment, I remember things that Britney had said about changing positions. So I'm here putting one leg up on a yoga block, one knee up on my couch, walking around, going to the bathroom. And I was starting to feel a little overwhelmed. And Terence, my boyfriend, was saying, uh, you know, you said you wanted to have a lot of movement. Let's go take a walk. So we went outside to take a walk. And as soon as the sun hit me, I just started crying. Like it was just too overwhelming for me. So I was like very overstimulated, very overwhelmed. And this is about three hours into having contractions. They were probably eight minutes apart. I don't even know if we were really timing them. So went back inside, continued having my contractions and finally, you know, was sitting on the toilet. This is about four hours after I had my first contraction and was like, I have to go to the bathroom. I have to poop. And he's like, I think that's probably the baby. We should probably head to the hospital. So we live on the second floor, walk down the stairs. I get to the door. I'm like, I can't get in the car because I have to go to the bathroom. I'm gonna go to the bathroom in the car. And he's like, I think it's the baby. I think we should just, you know, head to the hospital. Somehow he got me in the car and I'm on my hands and knees in the back of this little, you know, Hyundai accent. It's a little tiny car. I'm on my hands and knees, and I just remember hearing the GPS, and I was thinking, okay, we're on 76. I gave birth in, you know, a little bit out of the way for us. Um, then I hear turn right, you know, on Germantown Ave. And I'm like, okay, I know where we are, right? And I was just able to sort of get myself through that car ride, get to the hospital. I started, you know, holding on to like they had these like almost like those red target balls outside the hospital. I remember he dropped me off there and I'm holding on, having contractions there. And he was like, Don't, I was like, leave the car. We don't need the car. He's like, I'm gonna go park. He goes to park the car, right? And I just was so overwhelmed with the sensations. I had no idea just how all-encompassing they were for me. You know, I thought that I was gonna be able to breathe through them and just stay calm and collected. So, anyway, somehow we got up to triage. Of course, they checked me. And um I think I was like four or five centimeters. I did have to have a membrane sweep beforehand. And the one thing that stuck out is that the midwife who had given me the membrane sweep, I think it was just the day before, checked me in triage and she just looked at the nurses and she goes, Oh yeah, well, I did this. And I remember in my head, I'm like, you didn't do anything, right? Um, and like that's just this one little phrase that someone could say to you while you're in labor that just always sticks with you. So I do remember her saying that. And I remember thinking, you didn't do anything. Like this baby, I was 41 weeks, I think. Um, and this baby is gonna come anyway. So anyway, I um got admitted to the hospital. And again, I always say I got through this birth just through the grit of, you know, I always say, like the skin on my teeth. I couldn't stop moving, so they could not put an IV in my arm. That's the only reason why I didn't get a port or an IV. They the nurse literally couldn't put it in. Um, the midwife was actually very supportive. I actually don't have any trauma from this birth at all. I feel like I was so prepared going into it that I kind of knew I'm walking into their facility. It comes with certain rules, and that's just how it is. And I had already accepted that. But she was supportive. She said, okay, you know what, it's fine. Why don't you go take a shower? Go into the shower. And if you feel like you have to push or anything, you'll come out. So went into the shower. Um, and I was standing up holding the back of a chair, and I was in like a second position, if you've ever done ballet or goddess pose, which is like feet separated, and I started pushing. And um, I remember saying something like, uh, I'm pushing and no one could stop me. And they must have been listening outside the bathroom door because immediately that door was open. You know, those nurses were just listening. And so they took me immediately from the shower where I was pushing, standing up, feeling really good onto the bed. And then started, I think I pushed for four hours on the bed. Every position that you could think of. Um, I wasn't a dual at the time, but again, I had taken these birth courses, learning about movement. I was on my hands and knees. I was on sideline, I was sidelining, I was on a runner's lunge. I was standing up at one point. I was on my back by the end because I was just so exhausted. I just didn't know what else to do. And I was so just done that I was actually falling asleep in between pushes. So I would wake up, push for the contraction. My contractions never seem to get over a minute long. They're usually about 45 to 50 seconds, pretty consistently. The contractions over, I would put my head down and fall asleep. That went on for about four hours. And I remember the hospital is just a big digital clock in bright red, and I could just see the hours passing. And I remember just starting to think, am I doing this wrong? Is something wrong? Like, what's going on? Um, there was a nurse there that was practicing to be a doula. And in my labor lands, I remember the midwife came in and said, Hey, we have this nurse who wants to practice being a doula. She would love to like be your surrogate doula. And I remember at the time I just said, I it's fine. I don't, I don't even know what's going on. That's fine. And she had come in and she was just not the person for me. She was saying things to me that just don't connect with me, things like find your happy place, where I'm a more of a you got this, you're gonna get through this, let's go. She never met me before. So that was another little thing that I thought like always stuck with me. Like that you don't want anyone in your space that you don't know you're not comfortable with.

SPEAKER_05 16:40

So oh god, this is a great, like just moment to highlight why hospital-based doulas are not the fix to the problem.

SPEAKER_06 16:50

Right.

SPEAKER_05 16:51

Like, let's can we just like put the big bright flashing lights around that issue that you know, hospitals hiring doolas for the day of is not going to fix the problem.

SPEAKER_01 17:03

No, yeah, it made it worse. It made it worse. And she didn't know my personality at all, right? She doesn't know that I really take a while to connect with people. You know, I can feel a little standoffish at first, and once you get to know me or we get to know each other, then very, very open. So a stranger coming into my room when I'm in such a vulnerable state, not only physically vulnerable, but emotionally just in the stars. You're gonna come in and tell me to go to my happy place. I even remember Terrence, my boyfriend, looking at me and he was almost laughing. What's she talking about?

SPEAKER_05 17:37

He's like, this is the opposite of what you needed to hear.

SPEAKER_01 17:41

Yeah, yeah, totally. And I again, I really do credit the CNM, the midwife that was on staff, for just being patient. She did know I wanted an unmedicated birth. So I don't really feel I was pressured into anything. You know, the membrane sweep, I did consent to. During labor, she didn't push me toward the C-section. She kept saying, baby looks great, let's keep going. She was very open with me, trying different positions. She did do a lot of oil, which I had thought at the time was great. It was like a, you know, those little hot um oil packets that kept like rubbing me down there with oil. And I was like, this is fine. You know, I know this is good. This is gonna keep me from tearing. Little did I know that it really doesn't do much at all. Um, so other than that, you know, the the lights were super bright. I was exhausted. I was on the bed. I felt really good pushing standing up in the shower. Once I got on the bed, it just it just stopped. But very happily, my you know, that they were comfortable with me changing positions. So that that seemed good at the time. Finally had my baby. So I think I went to labor at 8 a.m. and I had him at 8 20 p.m. So for a first time, it's really not bad at all. It's quick, yeah. It's really quick.

SPEAKER_05 18:54

Yeah, even the fact that you dilated so quick, yeah, right, in in eight hours, right? If you pushed for four and your labor was all of 12 hours, like that's pretty wild.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

Yeah. And I just left that birth feeling actually amazing. Just like wow, I had no idea what birth actually was like, and I had such a new appreciation for not only my own mother, but mothers all over. I remember a week postpartum, walking around target, which why was I walking around target a week postpartum? But all the things that we do. Yeah, and just looking at all the moms there, like, why is no one like help like helping you? And we should we should all be carried. This is amazing. I I just had this newfound appreciation and awe and wonder for mothers everywhere. I couldn't believe that every single mother went through what I had gone through, whatever in whatever way they gave birth. It's just it's it blew my mind wide open, completely wide open. And I never looked back. I started to dive into birth work really a couple of weeks after he was born. I started to research nonstop, listening to podcasts. I was listening to home birth podcasts, I was reading all the books. I was, I don't even know what I was doing. I was just, I was like, I'm gonna be a dual. And this is it. I took an online dual training course and just kind of went from there deep into birth work and really just started to research physiological birth and what that actually means, why all these policies in the hospital really don't make any sense at all, why these life-saving interventions that they offer you are a result of the interventions that they gave you. Right. So it's this circle that just didn't make sense to me.

SPEAKER_06 20:46

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

And I kept thinking back to me being home before I even left, sitting on my toilet saying, I really think I have to go to the bathroom. I have to go to the bathroom. I can't get in the car, I have to go to the bathroom. Of course, it could be a position, you know, it's pretty early in my labor, it's my first baby, but also like it's pretty close to me having to push. So I always wonder, okay, I got into that car, I had that car ride where I was just bracing myself in the backseat on my hands and knees. Cervix is gonna close, right? I'm in the bright lights, all right. I'm in the shower, finally, I'm feeling really good. I'm standing, I'm in my second position, get on the bed, and again, tightening up. So it just blew my mind wide open, like I said, and I started to become obsessed with birth and started attending births. Um, I went to a lot of hospital births again, saw these same patterns that just didn't make sense to me. And I don't like things that don't make sense. I don't that doesn't sit well with me. So that transitions happening for about a year, a year and a half later, I'm pregnant again. And I was talking about birth so much to my boyfriend, and he was saying, It sounds like you really want to stay home for this one. Right. And I was like, okay, yeah, I do. And and uh I was talking about free birth already because I had heard podcasts, I had read a book by Laura Shanley, unassisted birth, but that was crazy, you know, and I would but I would talk about it all the time, like, oh, I heard about this woman who just like stayed home and they had their fire on and their dog was their midwife, and oh my gosh, and then they just had their baby went to bed. It was so cool. And then we would like go out to dinner, not even talk about it again. But I kept bringing it up over and over. So this is sort of my transition into a free home birth. And um I decided I'm gonna give birth at home, and cost was an obstacle. So I knew that uh to hire a midwife, you can't really you couldn't really go through insurance at the time. I think things are changing a little bit now. So I decided to seek out a CNM. So there's a few different kinds of midwives, and a CNM is a nurse midwife that will give what will come to your house for a home birth, but they can also practice in a birth center or hospital. So my insurance at the time would cover a CNM. And I sought out the only CNM in our area, and at this time it was 2020. So that is kind of an important factor for this, this my transition to being unhinged. And I went to see her in her office, and I thought I I thought I would I would sort of interview a few different midwives. So I had this office visit and interview set up with her and with the CPM. So I went to see her first, and she comes out to see me for her first visit, head to head to toe, full body gear. I couldn't even see her face. She's wearing goggles, a mask. I think she had a hairnet on, don't know why. And then full like a bodysuit for our first appointment.

SPEAKER_05 23:43

So complete PPE.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

Complete. I couldn't even see her face. I didn't know what she looked like. I thought, okay, this doesn't make sense, but whatever, we'll go with it. And you know, she was really lovely. We had a great conversation at that time. I had researched a lot about ultrasound and Dopplers, and I realized that Doppler is actually ultrasound, which no one in my OB practice had ever told me. It was just something that I did. I went in, they used a Doppler on my belly. That was it. I wasn't told that it was ultrasound. So I was talking with her and I was saying how that was a little bit concerning to me. And if it was okay with her, I'd love to use a phetoscope. And I actually had fought my own. And the phytoscope is uh like a stethoscope, but there's an attachment specifically to hear the baby's heartbeat. You can also find your placento with the phetoscope. So I had brought it with me and I'm like, she's a midwife, she should know how to use this. And you know what? She was on board and she said, This is great. I haven't used one of these in years. This is awesome, so exciting. I'm happy to do that for you. Awesome. And the next thing I talked to her about was getting blood work done. So I wanted to use her as a midwife, but I really was pretty sure of the test that I was going to agree to and not agree to, and what blood work that I wanted done. So the blood work I wanted done was a full thyroid panel because I've had thyroid issues. And I talked to her extensively about I don't want to know the gender, I don't really care. I just want my thyroid panel done. So great, no problem. You're so informed. This is great. I love this. She goes out of the room and she comes back five minutes later with a Doppler in her hand. And she's like, okay, you can lay down. We're gonna check baby's heartbeat. And I was like, I'm just confused. I I just would rather use a fetus code. She's like, Oh, I just I forgot. I forgot. So that was a red flag right there. I was very, very confused. I'm gonna blame it on COVID. It was the start of COVID, it was probably April 2020, May 2020.

SPEAKER_05 25:38

So it's this explains the PPE, yeah, because everybody was no one knew what was going on. Crisis, yeah. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

Then a few weeks later, the blood work comes. She didn't do any of my thyroid. I the office called and she didn't run any of my thyroid. Like as if she wasn't listening at all.

SPEAKER_03 25:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:59

Yeah. So in my head, I was like, I I can't have this person come to my house. And then she actually called me because I had sent a question about my thyroid lapse. The midwife called me and we were talking, and I was saying, I really don't think I even want an ultrasound because it is just not important to me. And I would really like a hands, you know, you'd be very hands-off. I would love to call you and maybe have you in the other room. And she goes, It sounds like you don't really want me there. And I have to tell you up front that if you hire me and then you don't call me for your birth, my feelings are gonna be very hurt.

SPEAKER_05 26:33

Feelings don't matter, yeah, as a care provider. Like, sorry, not sorry, but this isn't about you. Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_01 26:42

So those were her words exactly. And I thought, you know what? Yeah, no, I don't. I I don't want you there. Um, and thank you so much, you know. And it was actually a very pleasant conversation, it was pretty matter-of-fact. So that was that. And I was like, okay, well, we can't do her. And I did interview one CPM, and it was a similar experience. Um, she was not in full PPE, but she was a half an hour late for our meeting, and I had my two-year-old with me. So I was a little frustrated by that. But I I'm I'm late too sometimes, from understanding. A stranger let me into her office, someone that had the key, and I was just kind of sitting there waiting. And then I was starting to talk to her about my options, saying, I don't think I really want um an anatomy scan. And she was asking me why not. And I said, I don't think the information that I'm gonna get from that scan is gonna change how I birthed my baby. So it's just not important to me. And I don't think the risk of exposing myself to this ultrasound is worth it for me. And I might change my mind, but I'm not sure. And you could just see her eyes just like glaze over. Like she was already done with me. She wasn't gonna take me on. And at the time I found that very offensive. But now being a birth worker, uh great. I'm glad that if she's not comfortable with having a client that doesn't want ultrasound, then she shouldn't take them on, right? So, but I could just get the vibe right away from that interview. Right after I said that she was like no longer interested in me, and I was just a silly hippie girl that you know wasn't going to follow by the rules. So about that interview.

SPEAKER_05 28:11

I think that it's relevant here just to infuse a little bit of educational information. Like ultrasounds are non-ionizing radiation, right? They change the vibration of the cells that are exposed to the sound waves that are being forced into your body. And there like there's very little research on them, but there is research out there that shows that there could be concerns. The approved levels that are considered safe are far below what is being used today. And something that I find alarming and shocking is uh I wish that I could point people to the research, but there was one study years and years ago that showed a correlation, not cause different, but a correlation between uh children who have more frequent ultrasound and an increased likelihood of oral ties of life, right? And we're talking more and more of that and off, more and more people are having more than just a 20-week ultrasound, right? It's more like a standard thing. Uh and they use ultrasound. Uh, there's some research being done right now to see if they can use ultrasound as a male birth control, right? To reduce the fertility of men. If we can use ultrasound to reduce adult male fertility, what is it doing to our babies? That makes well then.

SPEAKER_01 29:49

I don't know, yeah. I don't know if ultrasound is uh causing better birth rate, better birth outcomes.

SPEAKER_05 29:56

I don't know if there's any uh direct uh you know, no, like in terms of like things that they're finding and helping to uh keep babies healthy. Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_01 30:10

Yeah, and they're so often wrong that sometimes you have um, you know, a mother get a result from an ultrasound, and the rest of her pregnancy is just doom and gloom. And then she has a baby, and either there is something wrong and they get it treated, which would happen anyway, I would I would suspect, or there's actually nothing wrong. Right. So for me, that risk just wasn't worth it. And that was just my decision.

SPEAKER_05 30:37

Yeah, and and as a parent, I think that anytime you're considering tests or um interventions like an ultrasound, you you should ask the question that you asked yourself, which is will this impact the management of care? Right. And if it will, then the test is worthy. And if it won't, then maybe it's not something to do.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, if I have any more children, I might change my mind. I'm actually very open-minded about it. If I want an ultrasound, I was thinking, I'll just I'll wake up and I'll go get one. What's the big deal, right? But for that pregnancy, I just I didn't feel the need for it. I didn't want it. So I went home after that interview, I was talking to Terrence, and he just said, just have this baby. He was the one that really gave me that final push, that final push of confidence to just say, We're just let's just have the baby. It's kind of decided. And after he said that, I was like, Yeah, this is what we're gonna do. We're gonna just free birth this baby.

SPEAKER_05 31:37

Why were you looking for a midwife? Like, what in your mind at that time, what did the midwife represent for you?

SPEAKER_01 31:47

I think that free birth just sounded too radical for me at the time. So I think it was like a slow, I'll say slow incline, not a down uh uh downhill roll. But I thought, okay, I'm gonna have, you know, I started off with the unmedicated birth in the hospital, which I really did get, right? I didn't have potosin. I mean we get potosin postpartum. Then I was like, okay, well, I will do this weird home birth thing, but I'll have someone there just in case. But also I don't want an ultrasound and I don't really want a GPS test. It doesn't make sense to me. And um, I eat pretty well. I don't think I need the diabetes test. So I wanted the home birth, but I didn't want the medical part of it. So I thought the midwife would just be there just in case, right? And then I realized that it's not really, it doesn't really work like that, right? They do have their rules that they have to follow. Um, of course, they do have life-saving skills that can help you in labor, of course. I'm not, I'm not taking that away from midwives at all. But I also think that just their presence is an intervention, right? Which I didn't realize at that time. I just thought, oh, they can just come and sit in the corner. And then that they'll be that I won't notice them. But then as I got, you know, these two interviews with these midwives, realizing like they're probably not gonna just sit in a corner, right? Like they're probably not gonna actually listen to me and and do the things that I want, where I start to sort of doubt that that that would actually happen. So I think I wanted them there at first just for this safety net. And then I realized that I might actually be inviting in something that would cause a problem, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_05 33:21

Yeah, yeah, absolutely does. And you need to know yourself, right? And if you're not feeling respected, and you know, there's this whole idea that birth goes best when mothers are undisturbed, unobserved, and um feel safe, right? And so it just the presence of the midwife or anyone is an intervention. I agree with that a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_01 33:46

Yeah, and also it is a personality thing. So I am very happy being alone. I spent almost all my 20s traveling alone, right? I would even meet people in in a different country and they want to travel together, and I would for a while, and then it comes to a point where I was like, I'm gonna actually just go alone. Um, so I'm very comfortable being alone. I love this my personality, you know, and there are some people there that want a doula and a midwife and their partner and their mom in the other room. That's just not for me. So I do think it is a personality thing, and just feeling comfortable alone and confident, I think that's a that was a huge factor for me. And again, I'm not saying any of this to tell other people how they should birth. This is just my story and what feels really good for what felt really good for me. Yeah, so you know, ever since you know when Terrence said that, I think you just want to have this baby. And I was like, oh wow, like I'm this radical, awesome person. I'm gonna do this. Right? Yeah. I was like, okay, let's do this. And the rest of my pregnancy was just, it was, I wouldn't even say it was blissful. It was just, I just lived my life, right? I just I ate pretty well. I was eating in moderation. Um, I was still doing a lot of yoga. I was working out a lot. I had a two-year-old, so I was super active. Um, we would go to the beach and go to the mountains, and it just lived my life. And it was really stress-free. I didn't have to go to any appointments, which was great. I had my own fetoscope. I learned to find where the baby's heartbeat was, where my placenta was. And what I did do, which I felt comfortable with, is I did actually find a midwife, I think later on, I was about 32 or 33 weeks. I did find a local midwife that would give me two prenatal appointments and then come to my house within 48 hours of me giving birth. And I thought, that sounds really good to me. I like that. And uh we connected really well, me and this midwife. I saw her twice prenatally. She is a fetoscope on me. And our prenatal sessions were we're talking, like we're talking right now. You know, I would bring up some fears that I had, and she's like, okay, well, what would you do? You know, and we would talk about it. I had this big fear of shoulder dystocia, and we talked that out and what maneuvers that would do, or if that would come up. And then I kind of was able to let that one go. Um, and I do think if you're choosing to have a sovereign birth, we're actually more aware of these complications that can arise because it's all on you, right? So nothing, again, just like birth, nothing can fully prepare you for something like shoulder dystopia or even something more tragic like a stillbirth. But it is, I do find, you know, it may be just me and my group of friends that we do discuss this more beforehand, right? So when I was going to the hospital with my first, we never talked about stillbirth because I was going to the hospital. That would never happen. You know, maybe at the end you get some pressure, like your baby could die, but it was never something. Whereas when I'm sovereign and giving birth alone, I had to be like, all right, what happens if my baby comes out gray and not breathing? Am I going to call 911 right away? Are we going to try to keep the baby home? So I have a few hours with the baby before they take my baby. And it's so hard to think about and talk about, but giving birth at the hospital doesn't prevent stillbirth all the time. Maybe they it does sometimes. Same with a home birth with a midwife, same with a sovereign birth. They all come with a different set of risks, and you have to decide which set of risks you want to take on. So I do feel like these things are just I'm more aware of them because I had to be, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_05 37:23

I think about our great-grandmothers who you know, Neri, was there a woman who didn't lose a child, right? Whether it was during pregnancy, during delivery, during the first couple of years of life. Like life and death were so closely intertwined, right? And and we have become so off as a society, right, that we don't want to experience a discomfort. We don't even want to talk about it. No, no, we don't want to talk about it. You're right. And so, you know, this idea of having the responsibility for the outcome, right? It's so off-putting to people have that they would rather acquiesce all agency in autonomy to someone else so that they don't have to face the possibility of death, right? And they would rather risk the uh ripping you of a mother in your power, right? They would rather the drama that occurs, right? Like instead of just being responsible for the experience and knowing that no mammal on the planet has 100% success right.

SPEAKER_03 38:41

And it's having a start conversation.

SPEAKER_05 38:43

Yeah. And that's not for everybody, and I recognize that, right? Like I totally get it. And that's not a judgment statement. No, I think that it's just that our society is gifted, right? Like when we were farmers, and if our crops didn't make it like one of our kids might die that winter was a reality, right? And I'm sure that there's lots of people who were like, Yeah, thank God we don't live in that time anymore. But I think we were sturdier as a as a people.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

Yeah. When you're giving birth alone, you just you have to take on everything. Yeah. And it's a huge responsibility, and it's also very powerful. Um yeah. So had a lot of those hard conversations. I did keep my plans to myself. I didn't really feel comfortable going around telling everyone, I'm giving birth at home and no one's gonna come, right? You know, I just kind of said I'm giving birth at home and just left it at that, right? People weren't really asking me much more. I did have someone ask me if I was gonna have an ambulance parked outside all night when I gave birth. I was like, Well, it doesn't work like that, but also why would I do that? But I think I was actually just so confident in my decision that even these negative um stories I would hear or comments like that, it didn't really affect me. I was like, that's that's fine. I don't know. I was able to sort of just deflect that for whatever reason. I was just very confident in what I wanted to do, and I was very confident on my why. I knew exactly why I wanted to give birth in that way, right? And I nothing could really shake that. So I felt comfortable with having this midwife for her TR2 prenatals. She was really lovely, felt really comfortable. And I like the idea of her coming to the house, you know, after the baby was born to check the baby. I thought this is great, it's perfect compromise. And I'm trying to think of anything else I did prenatally. I looked into tinctures, so having a few tinctures at home in case I felt like I was bleeding a little bit more than I liked. So I had some tinctures on hand. Everyone always asks, well, what about the cord? What about the cord? And I think it's so funny because it's actually like the least severe problems, right? Um, but for the cord, I I didn't even buy a special pair of scissors. I just had scissors that I was gonna sanitize, I was gonna boil them and use alcohol. But I actually decided I want to burn the cord, which again I learned through my research. Um, and I had a friend who is a woodworker make me this beautiful wooden box. So it's just a small wooden box with two grooves on the side where you can lay the cord, placenta on one side, baby on the other, and the cord just lays over this box and kind of fits in those grooves. And then you can use candles over the box and burn the cord. So had we had candles, we had the we had the wooden box. I had, what else did I have? I had asked on my buy nothing group for old towels because I didn't want like the plastic uh puppy pads. Got a bunch of old towels. I remember one of them had like Cinderella on it. It was like Disney towels, old pool towels. I just had them around the house. And I think that's it. I made sure I had a lot of good food to eat. So I was really concerned about having enough um things to drink, like coconut water. I wanted bottles of water, I wanted things that were just easy for me to grab in labor. I want to have a lot of fruit on hand. So I just set up in that way.

unknown 42:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:11

I don't know if I really did much else. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:14

People think that birth is so messy, right? Like your idea that, like, why would I want all that blood at my house? Uh I accidentally attended an unassisted home birth where I was there as their doula. Um, so technically not unassisted, I guess. Um, but you know, it was not the plan for me to catch her baby, right? Like she was supposed to go to the hospital and then baby was coming out of her body. Um, we cleaned up the quote unquote mess of birth with one bath towel and like six paper towels, right? Like it was not a like crazy messy experience. And no, she didn't bleed heavily, right? And that makes a difference, but also it's not this like, you know, disaster firebomb, you know, war scene that people imagine it to be.

SPEAKER_01 43:03

Yeah, yeah, I agree. I mean, of course, sometimes it is. You know, I think a lot of it has to do with your prenatal nutrition, with your building enough, you know, blood building in your body, with no one pulling on your placenta. There's just a whole there's a whole bunch of things that go into it. But that's pretty much how I prepared. I just live my life. And as I got towards the end, I just was sitting with it and was kind of felt ready to was take it on. Um, see, I wrote down some notes. I don't think I don't think I really did much else, honestly. I had a lot of diaped the pens waiting for me. I had pads, but I was just ready. I was like, it's so nice. I just just live my life, honestly, up until the last day. I remember the day I went into labor. We actually went to the mall to walk around because it was I think it was it was September. It was pretty hot that day. So I Of course, I had a two-year-old who had to get his energy out. I didn't feel like being outside all day. So we took him to the playground. We went and walked around the mall. I remember feeling very irritated at the mall because he was running between all these people. This might have been a sign that labor was coming. He got lunch, went home, put him to bed. And I started to watch a movie. So this labor was a lot shorter. And I start to watch a movie and then I started to feel just uncomfortable. I wasn't having contractions. It was probably like 9:30. And I put on this stupidest movie, Horrible Bosses. I don't know if you've ever seen it, but my boyfriend and I just don't watch TV together. We don't have any really common interests. And it's the only thing we could find. I remember putting on a thing like this, my brain, it's this, I can't watch this right now. Turned it off, went onto the bed, and started to have contractions. So it's probably like 10:30. I was on my hands and knees and I co-sleep with my son. He was asleep next to me. And I just thought, like, this is it. This is this is the last time. It's just me and him. When yeah, it was really sweet. Having a few contractions on my hands and knees. And then I went back into the living room and I was like, it's time, turn this movie off and like get out. I didn't even, I want to be alone. I didn't even want my boyfriend there. And so on the salt lamp, I had a cup of water. And I remember we were using the baby monitor as walkie-talkies. So he gave me like the one monitor where you could talk, and he went in the other room. And um, I was like, I need to just be alone. I need to like get into this, right? Yes. So he went to the other room. And after about 10 minutes, he had asked me if I was okay. And I remember being really annoyed by that because it snapped me out of my sort of psychedelic journey. So I was like, yep, I'm fine, I'm fine. I'm just a little cold. So he brought me in a blanket, right? So it's freezing cold at that point. Had a blanket over me. He left again. I had the salt lamp on, and I just dove in and I started having these contractions and I start like really tripping. I remember there was like a little green light. I think it was the Wi-Fi monitor, and that green light was swirling around, and I was just like going inward. Then I kept thinking, all right, I have to go to the bathroom. I have to go pee. This is good. I'm gonna go to the bathroom. I took one little trip to the bathroom, and from our we live in a small apartment, nothing big. So it's like a you know, a one 10-second walk, but it felt like forever to go from the couch to the bathroom. Did that journey once went back? I think only about an hour had passed, right? You literally don't know when you're in this labor land.

SPEAKER_06 46:25

Right.

SPEAKER_01 46:26

Labored on the couch for a little bit longer, had to go back to the bathroom. And finally, my boyfriend said, I think you're gonna, you know, I'm gonna stay in the bathroom with you just in case. So sat down, went to the bathroom. And so I'd gone to labor around 10:30 p.m. And at this point it was around two. And I stood up, and don't you know, I'm in my goddess pose in my second position, and I just started to push. I was like, this is it. Here we go. Started to push, same position, right? So it's that's a trend, by the way. I just that's my position to give birth in and started to push. And I was like, all right, I'm pushing. And I thought, this is too fast. I can't, this is this can't be right. And I felt myself down there. I could feel the head, and I was like, oh my gosh, it's over, it's gonna be over. My water broke all over the floor, and then I just like I became like this demon. I was like, the ring of fire. And he was like, you and I just felt the baby's head, and I was standing, and I just reached down, kept pushing, and I was like, I think in my head, I was just ready to be done. Like I felt his head, I felt that ring of fire. You know, I had let my body just lead, and there was no like breathing through and letting go. I was like, I'm pushing, I'm done, I'm getting this baby out. So I just reached down, started to push the baby out, grabbed him underneath his armpits, and just picked him right up. It was amazing. I could just cry. It was so awesome. And he came out screaming and pink, which is awesome, right? Of course, I do understand that some babies take longer to transition, but I think that that was my first free birth and being totally alone, like that was like instant relief. Okay, he's out, he's pink, and he's screaming. Like he came out crying and sat down on the floor, just held him to my chest. And it was, it was just the most amazing feeling I had ever had in my life. Um, I can't describe it. I just I just couldn't believe I did that. I did that. No one was there to tell me when to push, no one was there to check me if I was dilated enough to push. No one was there telling me to slow down or getting in my space. And I just sat down. I was just able to sit on my bathroom floor and just hold him and look at him. And um, I actually just kind of shifted over and I looked down and my placenta was already out.

unknown 48:49

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 48:50

And I thought, this is amazing. I'm done. Because the placenta, you know, is you know, like the second half of birth. You have to think about what is this gonna come out. And I just thought, it's it, we're done. We're done. I can go to bed. Great, let's go.

SPEAKER_05 49:04

So I mean, I have so many questions, right? Because what about tearing? Like, did you have any way of assessing? Did you care? Did someone check?

SPEAKER_01 49:18

I didn't really care. No one checked. Um, you might have tore a little bit, but I I don't know. I felt so good. I stayed in bed as long as I could afterwards. I mean, it felt like that sort of burny feeling when I would go to the bathroom, but it was nothing unbearable. I don't think I tore very much. And I'm not saying that you won't tear with an unassisted birth. Of course, you you would you can tear. I just I think it was my position. I think because I was standing, um, I know I pushed through that ring of fire, though. I was not stopping. I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 49:51

Well, your collagen levels matter for whether or not you're going to tear, right? Um, but I also I mean, I'm gonna say it out loud. Uh, you know, I think that the way that providers assist to the birth of the terror, right? Like I think I've got yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:18

Of course, of course they do.

SPEAKER_05 50:20

Um I've seen homework midwives whose clientels really do not have substantial pairs. Like a first-terry pair really doesn't need a repair, generally is my understanding. Well, right, so first repair doesn't need uh repairing if you rest and stay in bed and allow the tickets to be together and you're not walking around, right? Like typically the case is, but it'll just come back together the way that it's supposed to. Um but to your point, Alex, right? The midwives being more hands-off, they're not walking the baby out of your body or not your paranoia and grab a bunch of gel or oil or right oil, um, trying to facilitate more space for the baby. They just let it happen. And those are the women who tend to tear less in my experience. I agree. So it doesn't surprise me that you don't think that you tore significantly.

SPEAKER_01 51:20

Yeah, yeah. I don't think I did. I felt so good. I felt just like a high that you can you can't describe.

SPEAKER_05 51:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:30

Um, yeah, so from there, I I think I did like it's so nice. I was in the bathroom, I just like rinsed off in the shower just quickly and went to bed.

SPEAKER_05 51:40

You know, and you attended a home birth as a Dula prior to this delivery.

SPEAKER_01 51:47

I think, I think I did. I can't remember. I think I did with a midwife, though. I had never gone to an unassisted birth.

SPEAKER_05 51:55

Yeah. I I will say that when I caught that baby at home, I called a friend of mine who's a midwife afterwards on my way home. And I just said, thank God I have attended so many births with you because I I had some footing to know that we were okay. Right. Like I'm I'm communicating to 911 what I'm seeing, and you know, it looks like a normal amount of bleeding that, you know, I'm not trained in it, but I've seen enough bleeding. I I know when they, you know, react to a lot of bleeding. I've seen babies adjust, right? Like that idea of the baby being pink and vibrant, right? Like it's so it's interesting to me to to know that like you were limited in your experience at home. Yeah. And still have that confidence. It's unbelievable.

SPEAKER_01 52:46

Yeah, I think I just really leaned into my intuition. And I also think for some reason I'm just not too dogmatic because I just thought, oh, if I'm bleeding a lot, we'll just we'll go to the hospital. What's the big deal? Right? It there's nothing that was like, well, I have to stay home. You know, it's for me for some reason, I'm just able to just I think maybe it's because if I did have to go to the hospital, it's because I knew I had to go to the hospital. It's not because someone is telling me you have to go. Does that make sense? Where I would feel like, oh yeah, I have to go to the hospital, let's go. Um, yeah, and I was able just to lean into my my intuition. I, of course, I was bleeding a little bit, but it seemed normal. I just gave birth. Um, I had some tinctures that I took. The afterpains were really, really bad, which I was not expecting, but it's nothing you can't handle. Right. And I ate breakfast in bed the next day. We didn't cut or we didn't burn the cord until the next morning. So I put the placenta attached through the rest of the night. He was born, I think around I can't remember right now, 2:30 in the morning. So the next morning when my son was awake, we all burned the cord together on the bed. It was so nice. It took a really long time and it smells really bad. So after about 10, 11 minutes, I think I was over it. I think we just cut the cord after that. Actually, I did buy um cord clamps off of Amazon. So I just had them on the back burner in case something happens. Uh, I thought, okay, I have those. And they're just these little plastic clamps. They completely cut off the cord and we cut it. But it was a nice little ceremony. It was nothing rushed, and it was just so beautiful. My two-year-old was so excited to be a part of it, and then uh just stayed in bed for the rest of the day. I think that midwife that I had hired came the next day and did a typical newborn exam, which was really nice. Weighed the baby. He was over seven pounds, super healthy, nursing really well, excuse me, nursing really well. And I just kept living my life. So uh simple that it just like it was the biggest thing to ever happen, but also not that big of a deal. I just had the baby, and then my two-year-old had to go to the playground later that day. So someone came and took him to the playground, and life just went on.

SPEAKER_05 55:04

That that beautiful dichotomy of doing something so incredibly profound and then just resuming normal life. Yeah, right. Like it gives out goosebumps, right? Because this complete uh space of being undisturbed undisturbed and just being your primal self is it's quite admirable. And and obviously there's no promise that every unassisted home birth goes that smoothly, right? There's no guarantee that every drive to work will result in you arriving, right? Like it none of us are promised tomorrow or even the next hour. Um, but I I do think that it's a beautiful, a beautiful thing that you got to experience in that.

SPEAKER_01 55:48

Yeah. Um and once you think you know birth, my next two births were so completely different. So it just keeps you on your toes, you know. But it was different about the character thing. So my third birth, um, his water broke 30 hours before I had a contraction. And I thought that maybe it broke at 34 weeks. So I had to really sit with am I comfortable giving home, giving birth at home with a baby? I think it would have been 35 weeks on the day he was born. Am I comfortable with that? Do I feel like I could support a 35-week old baby at home and in a safe way? So that's something I had to sit with. And then, you know, I was a dual at that time. You still have this little bit of uh an idea of water breaking and within 24 hours, you should start having contractions. So I had to sit with that. And it wasn't like a slow leak, there was water gushing for 24 hours. It was all coming out. So I thought, okay, so a lot of water leaving my body. Am I comfortable with that? And I decided to sort of give myself a time limit. Okay, if I haven't had a contraction in two days, I'm just gonna go get an NST and ultrasound. That's fine, I'll do that. But I did end up having my baby, I think 32 hours after my water broke at home. And that labor was even faster. That labor was under two hours.

SPEAKER_05 57:12

What gave you the confidence to welcome a 35-weeker at home?

SPEAKER_01 57:19

So I I actually decided that I would go to the hospital because it was just too early for me. I think it was 34 weeks and five days. 34 weeks and five days. So I thought, okay, if I don't have a contraction, it was in the middle of the night when I had that idea of like, okay, when I wake up in the morning, I'm gonna go to the hospital. I'm gonna get an NST and just get things done. And I had the baby by 7:30 in the morning. Like it was too by the time I had a contraction, it was so fast and furious that I didn't even have time to go to the hospital. Does that make sense? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:51

So I was it was just that decision of like, this is my plan if this doesn't happen.

SPEAKER_01 57:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:58

Right. But I'm curious about like I also was in denial.

SPEAKER_01 58:02

I thought that my waters would reseal. I was like, I'm gonna just drink a ton of water and like I could my water, I could be doing this for you know another week. So I thought it's not a rush to get to the hospital because I could still feel a baby moving and I was still losing losing water, baby was still moving, so I felt okay with that. And then when the baby was born, I thought, okay, as I was in labor, I was like, I can't get into a car. This is happening so fast. I thought I will just go. I'm lucky. I live in Philadelphia. I live close to so many hospitals. Uh if there's a baby is really tiny, we're going straight to the hospital. And then when the baby was born, he was obviously full term. His fingernails were long, he was over seven pounds. We had a scale at that time, uh, no meconium in my fluids at all. Perfectly healthy nurse came out pink and screaming. So I was like, you know what? He's he's good.

SPEAKER_05 58:55

So you're in with a 35 with what you thought was a 35-week baby being born was to go to the hospital for delivery in case he needed help with breathing.

SPEAKER_01 59:09

Yes, but then you didn't make it. I just didn't make it, yeah. Because I thought I was like, I thought that maybe my waters would reseal and I would have like another week or two. And I was like, okay, 36 weeks, I'm good. And then I think I had my first contraction at 5:30 in the morning. I had been up till almost 2:30. Then I just, you know, thinking like, what do I do? What should I do? And then so I didn't get much sleep. I woke up at 5:30, had a contraction, and then I had another one and it just like it didn't stop, it just kept going.

SPEAKER_05 59:38

She had a contraction, then she had a baby.

SPEAKER_01 59:40

Yeah, pretty much, yeah. Yep. And I do think that my dates were off because I did have a weird bleed. It was like a three-day period that I had gotten, and I was counting that as my last menstrual period. But if I didn't count that, I think it would have been 39 weeks and a few days, which makes total sense. Yeah, you know, full-term healthy baby.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:01

Yeah. So so that's so your weird three-day bleed was probably implantation bleeding.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:07

Yeah, probably, yeah. Or who knows? So that was that story because I had in my head, oh, my water breaks, and my baby's is born in the next two pushes, which happened with my first and my second. So this one was just weird. Okay, water it was broken for 30 hours, and then my fourth baby, my labor was so much longer, it was 12 hours. So totally different. I think that that was more of a mental thing. I needed to have the sheets clean on my bed. I was not giving birth to that baby until my house was clean and my sheets were clean. And I swear it sounds so silly, but that was holding me back because I had all my kids that day. Terrence had to go to work. I woke up with some contraction and I was like, this house isn't ready. I'm not ready to birth this baby. I brought all the stuff to the laundromat. I took the kids to the playground. I was having like one contraction per hour, which again had never happened with my other births. Like I said, I have a contraction and it's on, but I really think I was just like, I cannot give birth here. And uh she ended up, so my daughter was born. I had a contraction, my first contraction around 7 a.m. And she was born at 840 p.m. So whole day, totally different than under two hours. Girl, you're wild.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:25

You have a two-hour labor, and yes, you know that first contraction means it's baby go time, and you decide that you're gonna walk to the laundromat.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:35

Went to the laundromat, took my kids to the park. Terrence went to work, and at some point his brother ended up in the park and he just looks at me and he's like, I think you should go home. And I was like, Okay, great, you got the kids. I went home and I wash the duvet covers. Putting the duvet covers on your duvet takes an hour on a good day, let alone in early labor. So at some point, they all come back to the house and I'm on my hands and knees. And Terrence looks at me, he's like, Are you in late? Like, what's going on here? And I was like, No, no, I'm fine. I'm just like, I'm in the groove here, right? It's like, okay. And uh yeah, I think once the kids had had their dinner, they watched a movie and went to bed. I feel like I could let go then. The kids were in bed, the kids were fed, my sheets were clean, and I could just get into it because once they were in bed and actively restarted, I had a baby within two hours. So I really do think if there's like too much unsettled for me, it it holds me, it holds me back.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:36

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:36

But that birth was beautiful too. I love, I love all my births. And that birth, I was able to have my space the way I wanted it. I had a beautiful tapestry I'd bought in India laid out on the bathroom floor. I had twinkle lights, I had a star lit up because I had all this time all day to like set up my space. So that was really that was really nice. And I really enjoyed that. And yeah, she was my biggest baby. She was over eight pounds. I remember her, it was so painful, this labor. And I just remember thinking these contractions are just so intense. So and I was, and I would say that my fourth labor, it was the most sort of present that I've ever been for any of my labors, maybe because it was longer, right? Those fast births, they kind of just take you by storm. But this was, I was just so present. I could feel her moving, and I was so grateful for that, especially going on assistant. You don't have someone checking with a Doppler, and I was like, this is good. I feel her moving. But every time she would move would just cause such an intense contraction that it would almost like overwhelm me. And I just remember thinking, I know I'm gonna get a break. I know I'm gonna get a break. And when I had my break, I was just spraying to God, thank you for this break. Thank you for this break, God. I I couldn't do it without this, and then on and on, and then she was born and again came out crying, totally healthy. Didn't burn her cord, I was ready for bed. I was like, We're coming her. Sorry, girl. I did go to the I did go to bed with her with the placenta attached, but I was trying to breastfeed her and it was like getting all cold, and I was like, I'm done. Just let's just cut a cord.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:09

Yeah. What was the motivation in leaving the cord connected to the placenta?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:17

I just really like the idea that it would fall off when it was ready to come off. I just thought, what's the point in in intervening with this? Right. Like, of course, the baby's gonna get all the blood from this delayed, very delayed cord clamping, but once it's dried and ready to come off, it actually comes off sooner than like a little stump would. So I thought it's just a weak. And then also it kind of keeps people away from your baby. No one really wants to hold a placenta. Yes. Yes, girls. It's not pleasant, you know, and you have to treat it like what it is, which is an organ. So if you want to keep it connected, um you have to put herbs on it, people put lavender leaves, they kind of wrap it in like a linen or something. So I wasn't gonna go that. I wasn't set on keeping it attached for days and days, but I just thought there's no rush, I don't want to cut it. I just wanted to keep it for a while. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know, honestly. Yes, so interesting.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:15

I love all of this so much.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:18

Yeah, yeah. And you know, it's just I can't really imagine giving birth any other way now, but I also feel like if I got pregnant and I wanted to go to a B, like I would just go to an O B. It's not that big of a deal.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:32

Yeah, and I think that that idea of like not being dogmatic about your plant, like you you are just very, I don't know, Vivi, like your energy just flows on the it's very hard to articulate the the human being that you are, but like you don't have the front, right? And you're core, but then you have this very light, airy look about you. It's like, I'm not going to be ruffled by the world. Right. And obviously, we all have moments where we like, you know, the beginning of this, right? The rage. Yeah. Right. That we experience in moments. But as a as a person, right? At your root, you have this flow about you.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:24

Adaptability. Thank you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:27

Yeah. And so it does not surprise me that you're like, if I have to, I do, I do it.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:32

And there's nothing more to it. Whereas, like, lots of moms, they I find they beat themselves up over decision making. Yep.

unknown 1:06:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:40

And also, you do give birth the way that you live. I truly believe that. And I do live my life like this. When my kids get sick, I'm not, I'm not the mom that's calling the pediatrician in the middle of the night, unless I have to. If I really think I have to, I'm gonna call. Like to me, it's just like, well, obviously, I would do that.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:00

Um, but I I really do we do a lot of things at home first. Yeah, right. Yeah. Okay, you have a fever. Okay, let's go, let's go lay down, snuggle. Yeah, here's some onion socks. Yeah, here's my NMV hat. I do that too.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:13

Oh, you got an ear infection and it's draining and leaking. Let's put on the onion hat. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:19

Yeah. Just to go further on that, I know it's getting long, but I most recently did have a miscarriage and I was about 13 weeks along, and it was sort of the same idea. Like I had to sit with it again. I do have some programming there. So, okay, I'm 13 weeks and I'm starting to bleed. Okay. I'm not gonna go to the hospital. Why would I give birth any differently to this baby? Right. But also if I felt like things weren't moving fast enough, or if I felt feverish or I felt like a sign of infection coming, of course, I would go to the hospital. So I this miscarriage, it was sort of the same thing. It's a lot of sinning in the unknown when you give birth unassisted, and especially with a miscarriage, even this pregnancy, I didn't even take a test. I just knew I was pregnant. And I just kind of sat with that. I was like, all right, oh, I don't need a test to tell me I'm pregnant. I know that I know that I am until I started to bleed. And then all of a sudden I was like drafting. I took a pregnancy test real fast, instantly positive. And then you're sitting with, well, okay, is this just normal random bleeding that happens sometimes? Does that happen with you know my third birth, or is this a miscarriage? And you know, I could have gone to the ER that day and gotten confirmation and gotten a DNC, and that would have just taken care of it. But I think I'm also okay with sitting with some of the unknowns. Okay, let's just wait a few days. Let's see what happens. Okay, maybe my bleeding's gonna get worse. It would kick in. And I kind of knew in my heart, I was like, this isn't normal for me to be bleeding like this. And you know, I ended up passing the baby, and I was able to just pick it up and look at it. And to my untrained medical eye, it was probably passed to like eight or nine weeks. It looked pretty small, but also no one took that from me, right? And it was very hard and very sad, but I was able to like bury bury that fetus, you know, that that was important to me, and it was sad, but also I just accept in a way I was able to accept it, like, okay, most is just as precious as my other babies. I know what this could have gone into, and moderated myself for a few weeks afterwards. My bleeding was you know tapering off. I did um get HCG levels checked in about two weeks, and they were going down. And my I don't have an OB, but I do have a gynecologist that I check in with, and I I just asked her, Do you think I should get it checked again? And she said, if you get your period and you feel okay, I think you're good not to get it checked. And I said, Okay, I'm good with that.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:43

And then monitor myself and just finding peace in the space of what is. You know, I again, right? Birth and death are so intertwined. And you being willing to hold space for both and not shift your your core values just because it was different, right? I think that that is you know, it's profound. I not many people can live in that space. Um, I'm gonna ask you a question. If you don't want to answer, I'll cut it out of the podcast episode. Um, but how did you in your youth, um did you do any kind of uh self-exploration that may have been assisted with uh chemical?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:45

No, no, like substance here.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:51

I'm asking about any kind of like plant miles, yeah. I didn't like shrooms or what is that acid or any kind of like does that have to do with I'm curious. Oh well, because I think sometimes opening our minds, yeah, like sometimes people who've done some plant because I don't think acid works the same way. Acid does not work right now because it's man-made and the magic is removed, right? But DMT or um triunes or ayahuasca, right? Like the plant medicine sometimes helps you to connect to this to your place in the universe, that you are just a small fractal of the greater picture, right? Like if we are just all fractals of God energy, right? Like I think it we are one. Well, it feels safer to move through life knowing that you are just a fractal of the greater God energy. And so I was just curious if you would like come to this realization for some plant medicine.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:01

You definitely have like a confidence that I don't see, and correct me if I'm wrong, you see the same women that I see. Like I a confidence that I don't see often. I just I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:15

I think I truly just I just don't care what other people think about me or my decisions, yeah. And uh and giving birth in this way has helped me so much in motherhood. Not only was I able to, I think bonds this easily with my children, right? I was able to just make choices that are out of the norm. For me, co-sleeping, obviously we're co-sleeping, like of course, right? Makes my life so much easier and also feels so connected to my kids. Um, started homeschooling them, you know, and I also just feel more confident in my decisions as a mother because I already went through birth, which in a way that's so out of the norm, where I'm gonna do other things that are out of the norm and people are gonna question me and I'm just gonna say, yeah, no, it's kind of weird, but the worst for our family.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:00

I think that's the greatest tragedy of modern medicine taking hold of birth because if you are not confident birthing your baby, I think it's very difficult to be a confident mother raising your baby, right? Yeah, like I think it's really women of their past.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:24

And also, I don't I I feel so lucky that I don't have any trauma from that first birth. I don't know why I don't. I think I just kind of accepted I was in the hospital, that's what I was gonna get. But the other birth, not only did I have trauma, but I love my births. They're and they're not easy. I don't have orgasmic pain-free births at all. All my contractions are very intense, but I love them. And I do think that the pain tells you something and it's it's useful information, and I can accept it, right? And I talk about birth and I'm smiling, right? How many times do I talk to women talking about their birth and they're they're crying? I'll talk to people. I just talked to someone the other day. Her daughter is 45, so she gave birth over 40, you know, 45 years ago, and she was like just almost in tears. Her birth was so traumatic. If the story sticks with you, and I feel so lucky that I get to go the rest of my life just being exuberant about my birth. I love them, they're amazing. There's no feeling like it. So I just feel so happy. And again, it's not I'm not saying that rebirthing your baby is gonna give you an ecstatic view of birth because anything can happen. And I know that I'm very lucky, but I so I just feel very grateful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:41

Well, you know, I think it comes back to 95 to 98 percent of the time, birth will go well if left undisturbed, right? If if left alone, right? When women tell their I almost died stories, I'm always like, Well, tell me about your induction. Tell me about the interventions, yes, right? Like I I feel like I can pinpoint the point at which your postpartum hemorrhage began, right? Because of the interventions that your physician or you chose to employ, right? Like women were not dying in mass before the field of obstetrics came to be. Were women dying? Yes. Were babies dying? Yes. Was that the norm? No, right? But we have taken this like things happen and turned it into this always happens, right? And if you don't have the golden crown of the physician in the room, you and your baby will die, die, die, die, die. And that's just not true.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:55

Yeah, I would have I would have all three dead babies if that was true.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:00

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:01

Here we are. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:06

We are so grateful that you came on and shared your stories. They were epic.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:13

Truly. Epic, truly, like I'm a confident mom, but she's oh my god. Next level. I couldn't do it, Vivi. I couldn't have a birth without a midwife.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:23

I feel like it's addicting, so once I had that birth, I I and again, it's a personality thing. I don't want anyone else to talk to me. I don't like I don't even like Terrence really touching me in labor. I don't need eat, but again, maybe next time I would, maybe, but I don't know. It's just it's just so special, and you feel so it's just it's very empowering. It's like, yeah, I just did that. Maybe last night, come over.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:53

They say you don't get a medal, you get a medal, right? Like it's a a knock in your in your belt, right? It really is just unbelievable. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:09

I want I want you back on. We're like, we have so many questions. Like, still so many questions.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:14

Yeah, you should. I've if people ask questions, I'm happy to come back because I can see so many people. What was you? I would have died. I always get the well, if I didn't give birth in the hospital, I would have died. And I'm like, okay, let's talk about it, right? As a Jewula, I've had people ask me, Oh, you go to so many hospital births. Aren't you so scared to give birth at home? And it's actually the opposite. The more hospital births I go to as a Jewula, the the more confident I am in giving birth the way that I do. So I think that could go in two ways, right? It could either lead to that fear of like, yes, I've seen so much, I gotta go to the hospital. But for me, it like led me in the other direction. I've seen so much that of course I'm gonna stay away from that place if I have to. I like that to end it with that caveat of, well, if I want to go to the hospital, then I will. Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:01

Yeah, if you need it, right? And that that I think is the difference of the American mindset over pretty much the rest of the world. I and it is changing. Like, you know, we used to be able to point to Europe as a like beacon of hope because of their midwifery first model. Uh, but even that is changing now. Um, but you know, like it it used to be that if you were a otherwise typical healthy mom, you were under the care of a midwife, right? And home birth was normalized because you don't need to have an OR down the hallway for 95 to 98% of births.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:42

And so if you're comfortable, like, listen, I would put half my salary into the lottery for 95% chance I was gonna win.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:50

Yeah. You know, there's so many factors too, though. I live in Philadelphia. You know, I'm not in the middle of the woods and on a boat. Yeah. So I am able to get care if I need it. So that could be another reason why I am so confident, too. I'm not gonna discount that at all. Yeah, yeah. You know, I need a doula, I do have midwives, not on speed dial, of course. I'm not gonna take advantage, but I do have someone that I feel like I could say, hey, this is happening. Do you think this is normal? So it definitely helps use my confidence.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:24

Do you think if finances weren't a hurdle with your second, that you would have hired a home birth midwife and set yourself on a different trajectory?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:35

I think I was turned off by that one midwife who just kind of instantly was not interested in hearing what I had to say. I feel like after that I was just like, this is too much work. Yeah, yeah, you know, and I don't know. Possibly.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:49

It sounds like no though. It sounds it sounds like you you knew you're like that. Yeah, so cool. Thank you again. I I'm so grateful and I know you know we appreciate you so much.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:01

This was amazing. Yeah, you're amazing.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:04

Yeah, thank you so much. All right, girl. Love you so much. See you soon. Bye.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:09

All right, bye bye. Wow, that was amazing. Amazing. I'm speechless. I was speechless the whole time.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:18

Yeah. It's beautiful to have that level of confidence and self-assurance. And you know, she educated herself. And I don't think we got into really the preparation that she did for what if the things go wrong. Uh, but she didn't just like decide, like, oh, I'm gonna have a baby by myself and like not do anything. But guess what? There are women all over the world who do just that. Yeah. Right. Who who get pregnant and have babies without any knowledge or anything else, right? Like that happens. Amazing. I'm so glad. You know, and I think that uh this is definitely not the way for everybody to have babies, right? Like you have to feel safe, right? It's it's not everyone's path, but I'm really glad that we got to share something that is so outside of you know, the accepted view of normal these days, because uh it exists.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:22

It does exist. Oh what a different perspective for our listeners to hear. And I hope I hope it makes helps whatever mean, whatever the word is. I hope it helps new moms question things. Yeah, you know, like put the power, put the ball back in their court because it is always in your court. The ball is always in your court, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:21:48

No matter where you are choosing to birth, right? Like I want to normalize us not being victimized in our birth experiences by whatever means that ends up being. Yeah. Yeah. Here's two beautiful, empowering births wherever you want to have them, however you want to have them. Um, if you have questions, hit us up on Instagram at doula's unhinged. Uh, we'll definitely ask Vivi your questions to learn even more about her experience. Um, if you have questions about anything else too, you are more than welcome to shoot us a message about that. We love uh listener-suggested topics. Um please leave us a review.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:38

We want to but only if it's five stars. Only again, I mean, whatever. We want your honest feedback, so I'm here for it, you know. But we want that we want this podcast to reach people all over the world when it does. Yeah. We have listeners all over the world. And I think one in Africa. So that's super cool. But please share it. Share it. Yeah. And leave us a review. We want everyone to hear.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:02

Cool, guys. We'll see you next week. Thanks for getting unhinged with us today. We hope this conversation challenged you, validated you, or made you laugh out loud. Birth and parenting aren't meant to be perfect or polished, and neither are we.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:17

If you love this episode, share it with someone who needs real and raw truths. Leave us a review and make sure you're subscribed so you don't miss what we're unraveling next. We're Alex Shaw and Lacey Morgan reminding you that your voice matters, your experience is valid, and you're allowed to do this your own way.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:32

Until next time, stay unhinged.