#15: From External Achievement to Emotional Fulfillment (ft. Alex Innes)

How do you build a successful career without losing yourself in the process?

In this episode, I sit down with Alex Innes, a partner at 804 Mortgage in Richmond, to talk about what it costs to chase the wrong version of success. Alex shares how years in international consulting left him physically anxious and emotionally absent, the dinner table moment that caused him to rethink his priorities, and how Stoicism plus a seven-week AI journaling practice helped him stop outsourcing his decisions and start trusting himself.

In this episode you will hear:

• Why looking confident and feeling confident are two very different things
• How to know when a job is draining you even if you are hitting your goals
• Why presence is the most valuable thing you give your family, not money or status
• What a seven-week AI journaling practice revealed about his own patterns
• The one question he asked himself on a run that changed his career
• Why he now filters every input by whether it has stood the test of time

About Alex:

Alex Innes is a partner at 804 Mortgage in Richmond, VA. He spent years in international consulting and corporate roles before choosing alignment over prestige and building a business around helping people win in real estate and home financing. Check him out at 804mortgage.com.

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Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to another episode of Whole Man. Today I have an awesome friend and guest. He is one of the partners of 804 Mortgage. It's like your one-stop shop for real estate. And beyond just the title of that, Alex is just an amazing person. Alex Ennis is somebody I met, I believe, the first time we met was at a networking event. I'm seeing a common theme here with a lot of the guests I have on this show, a lot of networking. And I just remember instantly just clicking with your energy. And since then, you uh you helped me with joining a BI group, and you've just been such a huge supporter of my work and such a great friend, even though I feel like we don't see each other as much as we should. So I'm just really grateful to have this time with you. And uh I want to start this conversation by just asking you the question: what do you feel like your relationship with success is? And where did that relationship come from? How is that shaped in your life?

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Yeah, I think like every relationship, it's like it's evolving and it changes, and it changes. But, you know, for me, success used to mean um uh a singular focus on whatever happened inside the office, but it didn't stay in the office. It happened, it lived in my head throughout the day, throughout the night, in the morning, at any time. And not to say that that doesn't still happen, but now it's um it's married by uh my relationship with my wife, my relationship with my community, uh, my relationship with my kids, and not necessarily that order. Um it's really wife, kids, and then community, but um Yeah, we don't want to get you in trouble. Right. But I have a beautiful loving wife, and she's very supportive and uh beautiful loving kids who who who I love to be with and love to be with me, and that balance um is is the change in that balance for me has meant all the difference. Um so you know, success in the past uh was a was a different version of me, and it's a everyday um journey, uh everyday struggle, I guess you could say, to keep those uh factors balanced. Some days it's not perfect, but some you know, but then you know you kind of take can take a step back and realize, okay, let's this one's slipping a little bit. And and and that to me is success. And I think where uh where I used to maybe uh force it, I guess you could say, is sort of by being more natural and just being more uh human. I I I don't know how else to say it. Um it kind of uh feels like to me it just rises all boats. You know, like you do well w around with your family, you do well with your community, you do do well in your business, um and and and and everything sort of rises up. It's more natural, you don't have that feelings in your chest like I used to, all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Tell me about the identity of the person you used to be when you had that different definition of success.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

I've always been Alex, and I and so I've always had um you know, it's not as if this sort of shift changed me, but what it what I in the past um you know, I I I'll say it was selfish in a way. It was um it was a singular focus on what I believed in in what I believed was success, and but it was also um um defined by others and and so Where do you think that came from for you?

SPEAKER_01 3:35

Where do you think that because I'm I'm always interested in learning, I really think that our identity is created from two angles, right? It's it's from our own personal decisions, but then also our environment around us. So I'm I'm just curious, would love to hear about your upbringing a little bit, and then how that and your perspective shaped your success or or your perception of success, and then how that's changed.

SPEAKER_00 4:01

I I'm I'm the firstborn of of three, and uh we grew up in uh in a in a lovely home with a lovely supportive family, a huge extended family. Um, and for me, I think even going back to kindergarten, uh I I guess at one point I said I wanted to be the president of the United States. That I can see that. Yeah. Um that kind of stuck. And and I think that might have been either some self-imposed or then community imposed pressure, you know, like kind of um uh to be the be the best, be the top, and and for me it didn't um it it was a I went on a journey that I really truly enjoyed, but I realized it was for that phase of my life, and then my my life had changed and I needed to change with it. And for a while I was fighting that change. And um and so I was able to you know back uh I I think going back to to when growing up, you know, that there was probably some self-imposed pressure to like kind of achieve this what were you trying to achieve?

SPEAKER_01 5:03

So what was the what was the specific path that you were on and the trajectory that you were going towards? And and when did you realize that maybe you outlived that season?

SPEAKER_00 5:13

Well, it's a good question because I would say like the path, if I if you were to ask me, is like I'm gonna run for political office, and maybe I will one day, and you you know, you could you could keep keep an eye out for that. But that was like but that would be maybe the the first thing, and then um and then I but I don't think I really truly thought about it, I guess you could say. And and I think I've I've always looked back and have a couple of choices, made a couple of choices like it's very different than running for office, but maybe I I could have been an engineer or somebody in in in that field because I I I enjoy that, right? And I don't know why I I didn't allow myself to explore that. Um and uh you asked my mom, she's like, well, your friends were at the other school and you wanted to go back be with your friends, and okay, fine, you know, but I didn't let myself really explore it and be confident that that was something that I wanted to explore. And I don't know where that lack of confidence came from, but I think that's really what it was at the beginning at that point, is like I I I I didn't I didn't feel confident in my choice.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

And so for your career, what did you like in your head think you wanted to do? Like in high school or college, did you have like was that the political stuff? So you had all right, I want to be a politician, and that that was your goal, and that you you carried that with you in high school and then college. Yeah. And then you feel like because of that being your narrow goal, that made it so you weren't as open, maybe or as curious to other paths, even though you feel like in hindsight, that would have been a more fulfilling road.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

I think so. You know, like I I now one of the things just so the way I know that it's likely true is like now I've made some decisions and I'm just making them on what feels right, like what what if there's a in my in my you know, inside my chest, if there's like a little nag that's like, hey, this is bad, you know. I'm like, okay, well, I need to listen to that, right? But if it's not, I'm like, okay, that's good.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

And I think my wife always observed this anytime I would have a big change, I would be asking a bunch of people for their opinion. Oh, and and it wasn't um I like I wasn't putting the weight of the decision on them. I was trying to like understand what is this thing that I'm about to decide on and what do they think? And you know, would I be good at it and that kind of stuff? But that's again outsourcing the decision to something to other factors, not in not not me. Because I if I look back at it now, it's like, well, yeah, you had hesitations. That's why you were asking other people to do that.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

I was gonna ask you where do you where do you think that that seeking for validation comes from?

Consulting Life And Quiet Misalignment

SPEAKER_00 8:01

Yeah, you know, it's hard to know. I mean, I I I I I do look back and think that a lot of it was is just a lack of confidence in what the decisions that I wanted to make and the things that I wanted to do. And I don't know that there's any one particular like nugget of that, like where that comes from. Sure. Um, but I think that was the the thing that was there. And which is ironic because I I don't know. I mean, I I'm just going by what people have told me. You know, I I come across as a confident guy, like I know what I'm doing, I know the direction I'm making. I was a a business consultant for several years. Ooh, tell me about that journey a little bit. I did international consulting as well. So like I had I was in these positions where I'm supposed to give a confident answer, you know. Um and and I could, and I was good at it. But uh internally, I was like, I don't really know. This isn't checking it for me. This is this is this is off. And and I know it's it's great for for people who love it, but for me, it always it always felt depleting, I think you could say the business consulting stuff. The business consulting stuff. Maybe depleting is a strong word because I enjoyed what I did a lot tremendously. Um, but it um it was just um it was an experience that I I I knew uh was a very good thing to have done, but I I needed to find something that I think was uh just a bit more aligned with who I am and what I wanted to do uh for for my family and for my you know for the people around me.

SPEAKER_01 9:31

And what in your life do you feel has contributed to building a stronger relationship with that inner knowing? Yeah. Because what I'm hearing from you is you've lived a lot of your life that I feel like a lot of people struggle with in a way, where it's I'm outsourcing my decisions to the things around me as opposed to really trusting the pull within me. And I know that that's something I'm still working through as a business owner and and creating the life that I desire for myself. So it sounds like you've encountered that a few times where you've you've made decisions based off your head, not necessarily your heart. And then that resulted in feeling drained or feeling a lack of fulfillment. And I even hear you as you're talking about it, there's like uh not to coach you, but there's there's some shoulds I'm kind of noticing. It's like, well, it was a great experience, you know. So it's like it's even though logically it can make sense, I feel like if it drains our energy, if we we know that it's not gonna be something that we're truly gonna, that's truly gonna align with the life that we want to create for ourselves. I feel like that is difficult sometimes to step away from, especially if it's somebody like you who's super competent and who can get good at whatever they want to get good at. And and I feel like that is kind of the trap of the high achiever. And so I'm curious, it sounds like there was these layers of it's like you've been an onion, you've been peeling back the layers of awareness of trusting yourself more. So when did that really start to happen for you? And what were the events leading up to that happening? Because I've heard this a story a little bit, but I want the people to know.

The Dinner Table Breaking Point

SPEAKER_00 11:12

Well, so there was there was one big event in my that that happened that uh I'll I'll share about in a second, but it it it kind of was an unpeeling of the onion. And and I think one of the biggest things, so I early in my career I was doing the some work. Um it was international, I was traveling a lot, and and for me that was um This was your consulting. This was just before that. It was it was a version of consulting, but it was for a different organization. So it it was I was traveling internationally, I was working in um conflict areas, and it was it was exciting. I was young, it was exciting, but it was also draining on my wife, and I didn't quite um uh I heard what she said, but I didn't um really internalize it and act on it and and what is she what is she saying? It was she was lonely, she was by herself. She was we were living in Washington, DC, and I was traveling like all the time for for a week at a time, you know, and and she was there because I was there, you know, and that wasn't right. And it it really does it really did cause um you know uh I'll just I'll say some friction because I was I had put her I had she had come to DC because of me and um and then I was gone and like that's not right, you know. Hey, come join me and then oh by the way, I'm gonna peace out, you know, once a month or twice a month for several years, you know. That ain't that not wasn't that extreme, but like that ain't cool. And um, so like there was like there was like this always this underground, I think, just tension in me that I'm not really um, you know, uh respecting the people in my life that I need to be most respectful of. And then uh so I so I I made some moves and some of those were for money and moved to the consulting world and um and you know, but it also was some prestige, right? So I'm maybe I'm trying to fill my cup up because I don't feel that inner confidence, so I'm looking for external validation. When I was traveling internationally, oh let's look at Alex, he's going off traveling all over the place, right? Like he's cool, you know. And then oh, maybe he's working at this brand name organization, and now um, you know, that that's a that's a really cool thing. Maybe maybe now I'm filling up my cup. And um Or think you are, or think I am, right? Um, it can appear full. Like those cups that are clear that look, you know, like the kids' cups that look like they have stuff in them, they're clear, but the gel just moves around, but there's nothing in there. Yeah. Like one of those. Um, but then over time, you know, I I made one move later and it and it it really was a straw that broke the camel's back, which led me to I think where you were going in the question was um um one day I'm I'm sitting at dinner after at this at this other consulting job that um uh you know just just really was taking it out of me. And I'm sitting at dinner with my two beautiful kids. They're they love me, they're they want me to be around my wife. She's beautiful, she's lovely. She's um one of the she she's one of the best people that I know in this world, and she's so good at everything that she does. She sometimes um she doesn't hear me say that enough, but she really is. And I'm so this is a perfect situation, right? Beautiful home, beautiful place. And um, and I say to myself, she asked me one time, why are you so stressed in this moment? I was like, Katie, this is probably one of my least favorite moments of the day, but it should have been the best moment of the day. I'm sitting at the at dinner and I'm saying to myself, because I'm it's tearing me up inside because I can't focus on what I want to focus on. It's not because I don't like what's going on, but I don't like what's going on in my head, and I want to be present with the people that are sitting there right with me, and I just can't. And there's too many things sitting, and so I was like, this is just the worst moment of the day. And I said that, and it uh the impact of that didn't hit me right away, but it's not it's been years since I said that, and and it's still something that I've told you many times, and we've talked about, and just like that has stuck with me. I was like, how could you be in this situation? You know, how could you be you have created you have been a part of creating all of this, and this is what you're trying to do. I just you don't like it, like you can't enjoy it. Yeah, and I think that was like the straw that broke the camel's back. Looking back, I didn't s appreciate it at the moment that it happened, like that was it, but that really did break. That was it. And I was like, this is just not gonna work. And um and so then it put me on it put me on a journey to um uh through it's been an up and down journey for sure, but it's put me on a journey to find my own path, to listen to the things that my body is telling me and not seek that external validation. And um, and that's been okay, that's a struggle. Yeah, it's not like something that just happens every day, like push a button, it's easy. But um, but that was like I think the straw that broke the camel's back.

SPEAKER_01 16:07

How did you realize that that was the thing that you needed to do? And the in the sense of I feel like the struggle for a lot of people in that situation is the way they deal with it is the way they've always dealt with it. So I don't know if this is true for you. For me, when I wasn't able to be emotionally present with people, when I felt a lack of connection, when I felt like there was almost this callus on my heart, the way that I would deal with it was the way that I always did up to that point, which was working and using work as a form of avoidance. And it's funny, we talk about traveling. I also went through my stint of traveling for like seven years and I didn't know this, but that was literally a physical manifestation of running away. Like I couldn't stay at a place for more than a year, and then I would move to the next city and move to the next place and move to the next thing because I kept trying to change my external circumstances, thinking it would fill this hole that I was experiencing internally. And so it sounds like you you hit this point of realization where you understood that nothing externally is going to fill that thing that you're looking for. So I'm just curious, how did you come to that realization? Did it come to you right away? Was it one trickle at a time? And then what did you actually start doing to change the way that you were living from very much so out here, a little bit in here, to a lot of bit in here, a little bit out there?

Stoicism And The Time Wake Up

SPEAKER_00 17:34

Well, one of the so after that uh really it does revolve around uh a combination of the job that I've been doing or that I was doing at the time and my wife. So my wife is um uh she was um not happy with me going off and not being present with the family. And God bless her for doing that, because that was the pull that kept me there. Not that I was gonna run away or go anywhere, but like that was the reason why I had to keep this attention on this issue because she was keeping it on there for me. Yeah, you know, and that's I think the power of marriage um is when you have when you have people who love each other unconditionally and can um call you out on your show, call you out on it for sure, you know, and it isn't pleasant, and I'm not pleasant back sometimes for sure, but um, it needed to be done. And then the other part of it was uh one of my former business partners in a venture, it didn't work out, but the it it it actually was the second catalyst in this. He introduced me to Stoicism, Stoic philosophy, and a guy named Ryan Holliday. Um and it gets a little bit of a bad rap at times, but what I got out of it was the awareness. Uh, I mean, there's some numbers that you could throw at. You know, we have on average 4,000 days or 4,000 weeks in our life. Okay, I'm turning 40 in July. If you have a dots, 4,000 dots on a chart, half of them are gone. Because I've so what are you waiting for? Right? And um, and the other is, and he also has a thing about uh it's called the Daily Dad. And you know, it says I I don't know these numbers as well, but it's like you got way fewer mornings with your kids than you ever think. You know, and so for me it was it was like this time realization that all of this stuff that I'm doing it's it's pulling me away from the things that are fleeting and way more important. Um and so that I I read his books, he's got a couple of books, I read his I he's got many books, I've read several of his books and read a couple of these daily passages things, and that really started the gears going. And then um uh that that that business venture was a that that didn't work out with the with uh my friend Jim who who introduced me to Stoicism was a catalyst to where I am today. Um and it it allowed me the separation from the world that I was in to the world that I needed to become and create. And you know, the thing that I tell people that along that moment of the journey was, you know, there's these wheels of life where you've got your friends, your finances, your your community, your religion, your all of these parts of your life, right? And so for me, all of those parts improved. Finances, they're coming, but you know, that's that's the thing we work on every day, right? But the every part of my life was better. And the one that was tied to work, like it, it, it, it became it, it is obviously important, no doubt. But it it its place in the importance hierarchy became so clear that where I had it like up here by a mile, you know, it's now more in its proper place.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

I see. So you feel the transition that started to happen was you placed so much value on your job title and your work and your performance, and that was causing the imbalance. And then you started to get introduced to stoicism, which is more introspective, which is in the masculine principle of emotions, it's like being a container for the emotions, so it's not getting rid of them, which I think when people think of stoicism, when somebody says you're so stoic, they think of a suppression of emotions, which is not what stoicism is. It's the opposite. If you think about it as like masculine energy is the container, feminine energy is the thing within it. Okay. And so it's with stoicism, it's about how do you build a container within yourself to let the emotions run free, right? But then not being consumed by it. Because if you don't have enough masculine energy, then the emotions are gonna consume you. But if you don't have enough feminine energy, you're gonna numb your numbers numb out and essentially not be able to process. Stuff. And so it sounds like that was your introduction to the inner world of Alex. Yes. And that was that transition from external achievement to emotional fulfillment.

AI Journaling That Reveals Patterns

SPEAKER_00 22:13

Right. And that that and uh I'll share this, this um, you know, this podcast with my wife, and I'm I'm curious what her reaction is gonna be. But I we always have she is very emotionally driven. And I traditionally have been a lot like not emotionally driven, but that was also the suppression of the emotion that was going on. And I mean, I will like we watch shows. Bluey is a great kids' show, and it also makes the adults cry. I mean, like it's it is like one of the most fantastic shows out there. And she she would always cry and things, you know, like that. And then now when we watch it, we both look over to each other and like you know, there's a little tear, like just something because it's a sweet show, and it's it's about love and family and and being there for each other and all the ups and downs. And um, and so you know, I know my emotions are more present now. Um and and I and I like that, it's good for me. Um, but I'm I'm still learning what they are and like how to deal with them and and and that kind of stuff. It's it's hard to um there are so many different ways you can explain your emotions and to just like kind of go from well, I'm like sad, happy, mad. I don't know, you know, like there's so many different variations in between, or upset is the one that everybody like she'll probably laugh at. It's because like you you look up, you know, are you upset? Well, what the heck does upset mean? You know, it's like it I just didn't really know what emotions were. And um, that's a silly thing to say, but I I think it's true. And and so the stoicism thing opened that up. But then there was this one other thing, and I'll uh is this is where I like you and I's connection really kicked off. I found this online program, and it was a it used Chat GPT, and it basically asked you to um enter, uh it asked you several questions every day for seven weeks. And the questions evolved, but they were all variations on the same thing. So I I was like, I don't want to put all my information to Chat GPT, but I did it. And I answered the questions religiously every day for seven weeks, and it mirrored, and then the prompts were mirror back what you're saying. And that was a unlock, a huge unlock, because I couldn't see the things that I was creating in my own brain or amongst in different environments. And so I'm answering these questions as my days change, as things are different things are evolving from me, and all of a sudden it's finding patterns, which is exactly what AI is designed to do, find patterns. And it finds patterns in what I'm saying and can then say them back to me and track them over time. And I was it was it it blew me away. And that was a huge second unlock and for for me is now I have the it was almost like somebody just watching you and like saying, Hey, you said that five days ago, and it was in this context, so like that little nugget's pretty important because it keeps coming up. What do you think that's about?

SPEAKER_01 25:11

What was the biggest realization that you had?

SPEAKER_00 25:14

That's a good question. It's been a couple of years now since I did that, but I I I the things that stick with me now are um uh the external validation uh ish issue, you know, um that uh the the fact that you were probably seeking um your your confidence. It may have appeared external, but internal you you didn't you didn't feel you didn't feel that. Um it it highlighted like swirling decision patterns, you know, like if I do this, what about that? What about this? And then you back to start. And like you keep going over and over and you know, like like stop, take the exit.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

So rumination, so indecision, yeah, maybe a uh performative confidence, but not a true inner knowing anything else that stood out to you? I know this is vulnerable, so feel free to share what I think.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

It's um well, I mean, the that I had my desires, that my desires were clear, wanted to be present with family, wanted to do things that mattered to other people, wanted to be supportive of other people, helpful for them, helpful to them, um that you know it's okay to love people and still find the faults in them, um and still acknowledge that the faults exist and know that you have faults too, but that you know, living with those faults doesn't mean you're not you can't love them anymore. I I've got an enormous extended family, I would say. At our wedding, about a hundred of the about half the people at our wedding were like my first cousins or aunts and uncles. And, you know, it's just a lot of people that I I have been around and love, and we know each other and love each other and see each other a lot. And um, and it was hard for me to kind of come to terms as I'm getting older with just hey, these are all humans too. Everybody's different, they have their own pluses and minuses and ups and downs, and and so I didn't quite um know how to handle people that were close to me, and I'm seeing faults with them and and like Sounds like that was a I feel like whenever we're judgmental towards others, judgmental it's because we're being overly critical of ourselves in a way, and that's just showing up.

Choosing 804 Mortgage From Inner Yes

SPEAKER_01 27:35

And it's almost like people are people are mirrors to our like I've experienced this with my partner Ashley, where all the parts, so she she is amazing at creating emotional fulfillment in her life. She is the embodiment of pure, genuine feminine energy. And what she's been working on is developing her masculine energy. And I've been the exact opposite. I've been learning how to sink into my feminine energy. And it's it's been an interesting. I've actually tomorrow is going to be a year ago, I've met her. And she's been such a mirror of all the parts of myself that I had neglected or shunned or stored away. And I feel like that's one of the higher level purposes of relationships. It's to be a mirror to help you unlock certain parts of yourself. And I also feel like there's certain relationships that are meant to be here for a season. So they're not meant to be here forever. It's to help you with a certain part of your life. And then there's relationships that come to help you with just like um like karmic relationships to help you with seeing, hey, these are the parts of yourself that you're suppressing. And then there's relationships that you're really meant to stick with, stick with you in the long haul. And I I there's like an official term for this I used to know, but I've forgot it. I'm just curious um for you, as you've been because the it's one thing to have a realization and then it's another thing to embody and do act on it. And and act on it. So I'm curious for you, how have you been bridging the gap between realizing these are the things that I struggle with and then moving past those things?

SPEAKER_00 29:14

Well, honestly, a lot of ways, so there's there's there's two things. Two, I think there's a practical reality and like kind of the emotional reality. So the practical reality for me is I probably would not have been able to do this had I not been financially secure enough to make some of the decisions that I made. So that was a blessing that we had. Um, because some of this requires distance from things that are causing you torment. And and and torment may be a strong word, but like it requires some ability to see what's going on and an ability to make a change. But the other part is honestly, uh I was I was training for the half marathon. Um I guess it was up in the one in DC last November. And so I was training, and my current business that's 804 mortgage and and our and our real estate team, the 804 mortgage home sales team, is is going great. And we're expanding and we're we're looking at other business ventures. But before that, I had always been interested in real estate, and I've been interested in owning my own business for a long time. And we uh my business partner Will, who's the founder of 804 Mortgage, um, was looking to bring somebody on and he was like kind of hesitant. He was like, I don't, you know, I don't know. He didn't want to um rush it. He didn't want to rush it, you know. And and and and I think he wanted to make sure that was the right decision for me, so he was doing the right thing. But I knew the opportunity was there, and I knew it was time to do that, to do something. Um and so it's kind of decision time, right? And like normally I'd go around and call a million people, and like I was I'm like, I'm not doing that.

SPEAKER_01 30:55

So you saw the pattern.

Anxiety As A Body Alarm

SPEAKER_00 30:56

I saw the pattern, I knew the pattern was coming. And so I'm just running and I'm running down Brook Road and I know exactly where I am, but I'm passing this this this is like very distinctive place on Brook Road here in Richmond and uh training, you know, it's night, it's winter time, and I I say to myself, is it enough to want to do this because I want to do it? Like, is it enough to do it just because I want to and it feels good? Like I'm like having this liter like thought in my head and I said, Yeah, that's enough. That was it. I'm like, okay, I like it. I want to do it. I know it makes money, so that's like that practical thing done. And yeah, it's gonna take some work, but I'm working like a dog already, so like, you know, I'd rather do something that fulfills it. Me knows that I'm helping people directly. Oh, and by the way, our business model is just, you know, a little, it's just like it's it's different and it allows us to be even more helpful to people. So I was like, there's that added nice feeling, and you know, know that you're gonna be people are gonna walk away feeling like everybody won in the deal. And this is great. Um, and then you know, to kind of seal the deal, Will and I were going to his um, he's he's got a river home, and so we went to his river home, it's gonna be a group of guys get going, and a couple of them fell away, and it was just us. And it was like, is this in a movie? I mean, is this what it's meant to be? You know, so we like we were just there and you know, getting to know each other in a different way. We've known each other for years at this point, you know, but got to know each other in a different way, um, you know, just spending time together, um, you know, checking out the different things he's got around, right? Just, you know, just being dudes hanging out. And that's that like sealed the deal. And and Will is a very emotional, emotion-driven person, and he's gone through his own journey. Um, and it's it's and he's gone through it. Um, and to be supported with somebody in a business venture who knows what they're doing, um, in the and has been in the industry for a long time, and to also have a company that, you know, there's a little like personal nudges. Hey, remember, number one's your wife, you know. And remember, you gotta take the time when you can take the time because it it gets busy and stuff, you know, like that support, and it's not overly done. He's just like, I I know I know when he's saying it, right? And and I we have the I have there's things that I say back to him too that are kind of like my return of that in a different way, you know. We all we each bring our own to the to the relationship, but that that that is like uh so incredibly important. You're kind of supported in all facets to be the person that you want to be um and to lead with what's right. Um and and what's right is is is for both your customers, but for your family, for you. You know, the the one thing I haven't mentioned is like before is one of the catalysts also was literally every single time I got in the car to drive, it didn't matter where I was going, what I was doing, I felt like I my heart was gonna jump out of my chest like for no reason. And and that had never happened. And I had to get on to like I had to get on antidepressants or some sort of drug for six months. Like, because I was like, I can't do this. It was like it was so physical. Wow. And and like that was a huge catalyst. I was like, something is this is just not right. It's never been like this before. I can't keep doing this. And then fast forward you're in this supportive environment and all that's gone.

SPEAKER_01 34:35

It's interesting. Yeah, it's it's it's interesting how much effort we put into trying to make something fit that isn't meant to fit.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

I know, it's right. I mean, it's exactly right.

SPEAKER_01 34:47

It's like the image I have is like we're contorting, it's like playing Twister with our life. It's it's we're trying to contort ourselves to this life that we feel like we should be living, and we're trying to go through all these hoops. And then at some point you just kind of realize why is it this hard? Yeah, what it doesn't have to be this hard. And then and then it's interesting because literally what what I believe beliefs to be are just decisions. Yeah. And so when we make a different decision, when we see the pattern for what it is, which is not who we are, but just a thing that we have that used to serve us but now doesn't, when we just choose to change the pattern without ruminating on it, without playing it out over and over again, that's when stuff in our life changes. And it sounds like for you, when you just made that decision, your higher self, God, whatever you want to call it, talk to you, and you're like, you know what, I just I'm gonna do this because I want to. That's when the pattern of validation, I'm sure hasn't fully completely dissolved, but that was a huge step in creating this chain reaction of creating a life that you actually enjoy, which is all it takes. However, we just those patterns and those beliefs are so strong that we will contort ourselves over and over and over again to try to make something fit, just because at some point in our life somebody told us it should, or just because it's there's a part of us that feels like it has to. And when we just surrender that and release that, life gets way easier.

SPEAKER_00 36:23

Wait, yeah. And you know, it's not like I'm that choice was made uh with with my wife's involvement too. You know, it wasn't like just this sort of selfish thing. She's like, You've always talked about this. Like, and it actually was kind of her saying, put up or shut up. That was like on the run. I was like, so she said that, and then I'm on my run, and I'm like, Yeah, that's it. Yeah, you know, and so again, the power of relationships. And you were talking about Ashley, you know, and and the same thing for for me with Katie, she's somebody that I I we've known each other for 17 or 18 years now. We've been married for since uh 2020, 2014. Um, so coming up on 12 years, and you know, I always uh one of the things that she is that perfect compliment as well to me. And it's um it's something that I could feel from the beginning, but I didn't know how to I had these like junior kindergarten words to describe it. I mean it was like so you know, it just didn't it it was it was just something that I felt and I knew as um that we were meant to be. Um I have this weird thing back growing up, I I like I just I always thought I was gonna be married to a person named Katie. I don't know why. I like truly, truly did.

SPEAKER_03 37:44

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 37:44

And um and it it it just I don't know it she she has that compliment in me and sometimes it's you know makes it hard because you're like looking at your opposite in a way, not an opposite in a negative sense, but you know, they're pulling you in the direction and you're fighting them and you're like, Why I don't want to do it that way. But um stretching you, stretching you and pull yeah, and and and and not changing because there's no like you don't people don't I don't think you necessarily maybe you take different choices, but I'm still Alex and I still do I I still um I don't feel that I have changed as a as a uh who I am as a at at the core, what I have done is stop fighting the things around me.

SPEAKER_01 38:30

Who you actually are, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:31

Like just let it happen.

SPEAKER_01 38:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:33

Stop holding on to things that aren't there. It's like you know, you're walking around with like three backpacks on, like, well just take two of them off and you're good. You know, you got all the space you need.

SPEAKER_01 38:43

If you could go back and talk to the version of yourself that was trying to force things to fit that don't fit, that was carrying a lot of unnecessary baggage, what would you say to that version of you?

SPEAKER_00 38:56

The easy answer is to say just drop the other baggage. The realistic answer is get to these decisions, move faster so you can realize that you on your own that you need to drop the baggage. Because nobody could tell me to drop the baggage. Yeah, every person along the way has been telling me my executive coach that I worked with, other coaches that I've had, people who know me, like mentors of mine. They say, Alex, you're too hard on yourself. Like that's their words, their version of what they were seeing. Every person. And Peg, God bless you for keeping saying that, because that was one of the one of my executive coaches. And it was true, but I couldn't do it based on their words. I had to experience the growth and then realize I can shed a couple of extra backpacks and still be a okay. You know, and so I think put yourself in situations that are gonna test you and really test you, where the outcomes matter, and um, you know, where uh that is how you're gonna get to the point where you realize what you need to shed and what you don't.

Lightness Emotions And Kids Watching

SPEAKER_01 40:05

I love it. Yeah, it requires I think there's a difference between doing something out of obligation and committing to something. And one thing that I feel has served me really well has been burning the boats. I think commitment is an elimination of other decisions. It's truly commitment, isn't it, I'm gonna do this thing, however, I'm gonna have this backup plan over here, this backup plan over here. And you obviously have to be logical with this in some regard. However, I would argue that if it's something that's coming from your heart, what a lot of people don't understand when they've been living a lot of their lives in their head, and what I've struggled with is that if it's coming from your heart, you committing to that thing out of faith guarantees that you'll be provided for in some capacity. It may not be in the way that you think you'll be provided for, but it will work out. However, I feel like it's because we have to start breaking our relationship with needing certainty that requires us to move in that way, to follow that pull. I feel like that's what makes it so hard for people is we have to go from this borrowed certainty of I have to know what's gonna happen next, I have to have guarantees into trusting ourselves and understanding we have the ability to navigate whatever life comes our way. And the whole fun part is not knowing what's gonna happen next. But when you don't trust yourself, it's agony. So when you learn to trust yourself, you like the unknown, you like uncertainty because you have this faith that it's gonna work out better than you could have ever imagined it. But if you don't trust yourself, it feels like suffering and rumination and anxiety, and there's this feeling of uneasiness. And so it's cool to hear that you have started to really embrace more uncertainty. And obviously, I know that this is an ongoing thing, as most things are, but it's great to hear that you've just started to really let go of the grips of control, which is where that need for certainty comes from, and you've stepped into playing with the unknown. Just like kids, right? We don't we don't need to know what the day is going to look like all the time as kids. We don't need to know what's gonna happen next. Kids have this innocence and this curiosity that I feel like as adults we lose touch of, and and I feel like the more we embrace those things, the more light our life feels.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

It it's that lightness is so essential. It's so essential. Because if you go about things, what I've realized is the heaviness. I've had mom the past the to say it was all heavy is not true. There's the moments of lightness, but the the heaviness of carrying all of those backpacks, of carrying all those expectations and the things that you think you should be doing um is draining. But it's also obvious to other people. And when you um when you operate in with lightness, with joy, with a sense of fulfillment, with a sense of purpose, and in and you just it's you seem it seems like you enjoy what you're doing, people notice that too. And that's what you want them to be noticing because you've fulfilled yourself and now they're responding to the fact that they're responding to your positive energy and what you're what you're putting out into the world. And that's to your point of you will get it it will come back to you. That's where I think it that's to me at least how it uh starts to appear to come back to you. You know, people are responding to this fact that oh, this person is like it it they just are giving off good energy because they feel good for themselves.

SPEAKER_01 43:46

And that's the most important piece. It's because I used to fall into this trap of my value, other people would perceive my value from what I did for them, and that's not true. What people find valuable. Valuable in us is the energy that we put off, the way we make them feel. And talking about emotions, I'm doing this whole thing right now for a company called Emotional Mastery, teaching people how to get in touch with this because I it was so foreign to me for such a long time. Like emotion stands for energy and motion.

SPEAKER_00 44:19

Oh, I like that.

SPEAKER_01 44:20

That's literally what the word emotion means. And so, because of that, our emotion is what defines our experience. And so if we are constantly living in states of frustration, anxiety, guilt, and shame, what I call survivor fuel, if we're constantly in those states, then that is the thing that we're projecting. And whatever we create from, we make more of. So if we're living a life, if the if the actions that we're taking is driven by those emotions, by default, we will create more of it. And it's the same with joy and fulfillment and peace and courage and happiness. And so what starts to happen is when we realize we don't have to rely on that corrosive fuel anymore, because it may help us get shit done. It may help with the behaviors we need to engage in to accomplish the goal or whatever. But if it's killing us from the inside, then it's not sustainable. We're burning out, and we're just going to create more of those emotions in our life. So when we realize we don't have to rely on that and we can actually do things from a state of love and joy and courage and peace, which requires a whole different belief system and requires nervous system regulation, when we can really switch that identity, that's where you don't give a shit about the certainty and the control. Because all of those things, that validation, the external focus being super heavy comes from not being in a regulated state. It comes from not using that fuel. And so that's that switch that from external achievement to emotional fulfillment. And um yeah, I forgot where I was going with that.

SPEAKER_00 46:07

It it was just Well, it's for me, it's it's the the added to that is then in the presence of young children who are feeling what you're feeling and they know what's going on.

SPEAKER_01 46:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:16

No matter what you say or do, they can see it in you. And um to know that your actions are impacting them or lack of actions or your presence or your the vibe that you're putting off, your emotions are impacting them goes back to the Ryan Holiday and the Daily Dead, and like it it just and obviously just logic and you know, like you it it hits different.

SPEAKER_03 46:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:41

For me, that's one of the blessings of parenthood, and why I think it's such an important um why it's such an important institution in our world because it it it helps the parents, me, I'll say it helps me probably it helps me grow and their presence helps me grow and be a better person, probably as much, maybe more, I don't know, as what we are imbo empower imbibing or like um you know giving off to them as parents and guides in this world. Yeah, because that that full circle, like you need to see that you're 20, 30, 40 years into your life, and you're like, yeah, the world's crazy. And yeah, you made a lot of decisions, and some are great and some are not. And then you see this like two, three, four, five, six-year-old, and they're just like, Hey, look, daddy, this is great. I love it. And you know, it's a box, or you know, you're like, okay, there are things in here, this is the this is the full circle. This is coming back. And so knowing that my energy is affecting them and could have a lasting impact to them, it it sharpens that need to connect the heart and the head so much more.

SPEAKER_01 47:47

And I love that because the word that keeps coming to me when you're talking about it is it it forces us to take more responsibility of our state. And we talk a lot about providership in the form of material possession.

SPEAKER_00 48:01

That's the lowest thing.

SPEAKER_01 48:02

But that's the lowest value thing that we can provide for our family. And this is me saying somebody who doesn't have a family yet, but experienced what it's like to not have present parents. The most valuable currency is our attention, time, and energy. And it's just crazy how we can tell ourselves the story that making more money is the thing that people truly want. And it's just not, it's just bullshit. That's just the self-fulfilling prophecy that allows us to keep escaping through our work.

SPEAKER_00 48:34

I think the thing, one last thing, and I know we're getting short on time, but um, one last thing that I have made it a practice is um uh another book that opened up my eyes to this is um um Dale Carnegie Um How to Win Friends and Influence People. And it's a good book, it's a good leadership book. But what the impact of that book was it's been around forever. And that's why meditation or um um uh Marcus Aurelius is one of the you know the stoic philosophers and uh or sort of proponents, I guess, of stoicism. He was a he was a student of it, and um and his book has been around for thousands of years. You know, and there's moments in there where in the book where you read and he's like on the beach with his kids, and like, well, I do that. And he's talking about 2,000 years ago. And so for me, the other component of this journey is to find the things that have been around for a long time and let those be your guide because they have been around for a long time for a reason, and thousands and millions and millions of people have enjoyed them and gotten value for them, and they still are getting value for them today. And so to me, that's that's a thing that I have sort of helped to exclude sources and inputs and things that I hear and read and whatnot because they don't stand the test of time.

SPEAKER_01 49:58

Right.

SPEAKER_00 49:59

If in in if I were alive in 200 years and your thing is still good, then I can talk to you, right? But you know, like that person over there, right? But like I'm I'm sticking with the tried and true.

SPEAKER_01 50:10

I love it. Yeah, what a great way to simplify your life too with with a society that has too much information. Alex, what can people do to support you?

SPEAKER_00 50:19

Well, uh keep following Brennan. Uh he he he and I Matt met up at the exact moment, and I was like, man, this guy is talking about all the things that I just went through. And so I've I've loved being at support of your uh of your work and your your journey. Um he's uh we've we've been uh blessed enough to host him for uh an event here around town, and uh the reviews were just amazing. People loved uh what he had to say, and um it it resonated with people days and weeks later. Um the other thing is if you're if you're in the mood and you're looking to buy or sell real estate, um, I'd ask that you check out 804mortgage.com. Our our claim to fame is the bundle and save program, where if you buy a house, uh use our real estate services and our mortgage services together, we uh give you back half of the real estate fees into your mortgage to reduce your monthly payment or the amount of cash you need to close. So it makes a great deal for everybody. Um and if you're selling a house, we have a great deal for you too there. So eight oh four mortgage.com, we'd love to help you out. Um thank you.

SPEAKER_01 51:25

Alex, thank you, man.

SPEAKER_00 51:26

Yeah, this is great. Thanks, Brennan. Yes, sir. All right.