Whole Man

# 16: Why High Achievers Build Lives They Secretly Hate (Ft. Lauren Andersen)

• Brennan Hilleary • Season 1 • Episode 16

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What happens when you build a business to escape burnout and end up burning out inside of it?

In this episode, I sit down with Lauren Anderson, owner of Eirene Counseling and Consulting in Richmond, to talk about what it really costs to follow the path you think you are "supposed to" take. Lauren shares how she went from a one-woman private practice to a full group practice, how the growth she was told to pursue nearly broke her health, and what it took to finally stop running and start listening to herself.

In this episode you will hear:

  • Why doing everything the "right" way can still leave you empty
  • How Lauren's body started sending signals she kept ignoring
  • The difference between growing a business from purpose versus growing it from pressure
  • Why she gave up the dream she actually wanted before she even started
  • What it looks like to move from survival mode to real alignment in real time
  • Why you cannot make this transition alone, and what community actually looks like in a liminal space

About Lauren:

Lauren Anderson is a licensed therapist and owner of Eirene Counseling and Consulting in Richmond, VA. She works with self-pay clients in longer, deeper sessions, focusing on first and second generation Americans who are high-achieving professionals. Learn more on her website.

If this episode hit home, subscribe to the channel, leave a review, and share it with someone who is doing all the "right" things but still feels stuck.

Newsletter: Build With Brennan: Designed to help you build a better life, stop surviving, and thrive personally & professionally.

My YouTube Channel: Video versions of the podcast and more.

Business Website: Helping established businesses develop their people beyond their title through transformative keynote talks, workshops, and group coaching.

Other Social Links: LinkedIn, facebook, instagram.

Meet Lauren And Her Mission

SPEAKER_03

Hello, everybody. Welcome to another podcast episode of Whole Man. Today I am with one of my dear friends and also a prior client. Her name is Lauren Anderson, and she is the owner of Arena Counseling Consulting. Lauren is one of those people where she has an amazing heart. She has a very smart brain as well. And I've learned so much from her. And I'm really excited to hear her perspective just because I feel like you've lived a lot of life and being in the mental health space, it's a unique place to be in. And just would love to talk shop with you about your experiences, how you developed into being this person who is a business owner and how your mission is to serve others, where that came from, and maybe what are some things that you've experienced along the way. So we'll see where this thing goes. Thanks for being here.

Community Roots And Counseling Path

SPEAKER_02

Thank you for the intro. Feel really good about that. So thanks for that. So it all started when I was born. That's how I lead with my talk. Yes. But um I've I'm a child of immigrants. Uh I've told you my parents come from the Caribbean, um, Grenada, and Guyana in South America, and always been in a community. And I think that's where I've gotten that kind of giving to others uh mindset, and not in a transactional way. Uh over time, and you've helped me with this, is not giving everything to the point where I'm depleted and in the negative regarding like energy, but uh having a healthy giving and what does you know, community look like? So I've grew up in Brooklyn, uh uh Caribbean enclave in Brooklyn, uh and uh Canarsi, uh a little shout out there. And then I went to a church that was like heavily um uh heavily Caribbean members as well. So it was just you know an extension of that community. And in there I was often serving, often like helping others. And that's where I saw like, oh wow, I wonder, um, always wondered what made people tick, why people are the way they are, and relationships always fascinated me. And I uh remember the uh first lady of the church uh did couples counseling. So I'd asked her about it, and uh I decided I didn't want to do that, uh, went to uh undergrad under undecided, and then ultimately chose psychology and then ultimately chose um family counseling. Uh and it's been rewarding in different ways. Uh as you know, I I started my business in 2020, just before the pandemic. I didn't know what was happening, it was January 2020. Uh before that, I was doing a lot of community-based um uh mental health services. Uh, I did um like intensive in-home, I did crisis work. Um I was helping uh kids transition back home from residential facilities. Um and I ended up working in a uh in a private practice in Mechanicsville. And I remember choosing that for myself because I was cold calling um practices and like I have seen everything else. This is what I want to do. Uh and the climate was very different the way it is now versus when I graduated in 2016. Uh now every private practice is like, yeah, I'll take you on as an intern, I'll take you on as a pre-licensed person, but you really had to like hustle to get into those spots like 10 years ago. It's like a decade ago. It's crazy to say. Um and then I I knew like I wanted to answer to me. Um, I wanted to be my own boss. And uh it's not that I didn't like take direction well, but I I knew that I wanted to create something um that was different. I wanted everything to be a one-stop shop. One of my inspirations was the spinoff from Gray's Anatomy. Um, now I'm like forgetting the name. Oh yeah, it was literally called practice. Um but they had Is that a show? It is a show. And they had um Oceanside Wellness, if I'm remembering correctly, and it was an interdisciplinary practice where there was a therapist, there was an acupuncturist, there was a um a primary care physician. So you had all that under one house. And I thought, like, wow, nobody will have to like go to separate locations. They can just be all here. It's a one-stop shop for everybody. So that's what I had envisioned when I decided to grow the group practice.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And what was that experience like for you going from working for somebody else to starting something on your own?

Launching A Practice Before COVID

SPEAKER_02

Uh it was freeing. Um, it was terrifying and confusing. Um, because again, it was at the least opportune time because the pandemic happened. I just rented out an office and then I can't really use the office. So I was mostly working from home, but um, I could make my own schedule. And then, oh my gosh, I can make my own schedule. Um, I deal with ADHD, and sometimes it's hard for me to like create a routine and be able to follow that. So having all that free time was again like freeing, but it was also um really challenging for me to, you know, create structure for myself.

SPEAKER_03

Sure, that makes sense. And when you made that transition, what was the thing that really made the decision clear for you to do that for yourself? Was it something you knew you always wanted to do and you strategically slowly made that decision and planned ahead for it and had something pretty laid out? Or were you like me and one day was just like, screw this, I'm done, and then went all in on it?

SPEAKER_02

Um, I did plan ahead. Um I at the time I was working, I was working like three jobs. Um, so I I was I was in private practice, but I was also um working for uh another company, nine to five. Um and I was doing um, I was working in Tidewater from Richmond doing uh assessments for kids on the spectrum too. So there was a lot of a lot of back and forth. Um and when I uh worked for this this last company doing nine to five, and then I was like, okay, um I can work part-time at this outpatient practice. I was like, I want more time for myself. Uh I don't want to work nine to five at this job and then see clients from like uh six to eight or six to nine, um, three days a week, yep, at night, um, and work every other Saturday. Um, that was just, it was too much, yeah, especially like on my on my nervous system. But I knew that looking back, I'm like, yeah, I want to do this, I'm gonna work hard. So I put money away to like have that be my like my own seed money. Um and I remember brainstorming about what I wanted the business theme to be and putting around with my family members and then registering at the SEC and getting my EIN and all this different stuff. But it was um I planned ahead. Um, I knew I couldn't, you know, work at that company anymore once I started this journey.

SPEAKER_01

Sure.

Planning The Leap Into Ownership

SPEAKER_02

Um, mostly because there was a conflict of interest. Uh so I, you know, I let them know and you know, it we left on great terms. I still love them and think they they do amazing work. Um, but yeah, so I'm like going into the world of private practice and um insurance. And I had somebody from that uh where I was completing my residency, she was kind enough to be like, hey, um, I could do your billing, I can get you credentialed, um, let's do this, let's make a Renee a household name. Like she says that to me like all the time. So uh Akisha, if you're listening, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03

I'm sure she will listen. Yeah, tell her about it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, absolutely. I'm like, hey, I gave you a shout out here. So just yeah, Akisha Gary, everybody.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Yeah. So for you it was strategic and calculated, and you made that transition. What's happened to you since you've been a business owner that you haven't expected?

SPEAKER_02

Uh I think being a business owner, it you take a lot of the unexpected. Uh there's you it's hard to find mentors. Um, people are willing to give you the time and energy, um, especially when you're uh first starting. Uh it's hard to find community. It took me a long time to find uh community with others that were you know going through the same thing. Um and it's just like surprise after surprise. I'm like, oh my gosh, is there a manual somewhere uh for this? Um and ironically, at the time there wasn't. Uh so it eventually when I first started, because I was answering to myself, right? Um, I could handle the insurance, um, I can handle the claims, I can handle like dealing with my clients. Um I I knew that I wanted to become a supervisor. So I was counting down the days that I hit like two years post um licensure, which is when you can register with the board of counseling to become an approved supervisor.

SPEAKER_03

And how what does that change for you when you become a supervisor?

SPEAKER_02

So that means that I can um provide uh uh supervision for those who have begun their residency. Um, those uh who graduated from their master's program, they've registered with the Department of Health professions, um, and they're beginning to count their hours uh towards their licensure. So if I remember correctly, it's about 200 uh supervision hours, um, but 4,000 overall. Um, yes. Virginia has to become a therapist. Yep. Wow. Has the strictest requirements. Virginia and California um have the strictest requirements uh to become a therapist.

The Surprise Weight Of Leadership

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, so lots of unexpected twists and turns. It seemed like you grew quickly from our conversations, because going from a private practice, single practice to a group practice, that's not something that's super common. And so I I would love to ask about your experience with that. Like what were the walk me through what your experience was like whenever you were a single practice, what started to happen that made you grow, and then how did that change your experience when you became a group practice?

SPEAKER_02

So I I had great clients. Um I I I loved um working with my clients and uh I'd reached my max. And from everywhere that I turned, I heard the next logical step was to grow the practice, to um hire a resident or hire a um another licensed person and build a group. So I said to myself, well, yeah, I'm following the path. So uh in 2022 was when I grew the practice. Um, I brought on about like I brought on like two people um at the time. And in 2023, I brought on another person uh and an intern. So this person was still in the master's program and had to get their internship um hours and they have to get 600 hours um total for their internship. So I was like, yeah, well, this is a new challenge. I I've been able to um be successful with my residents. I'm um they're employed here, I am providing them supervision, so that's like saving me money. I'm still seeing my clients, I'm gonna take on this intern. Um, as you can see, my plate is filling up. Um saying this, because I'm I'm the admin, I'm the marketer, I'm the business owner, um, I'm the forecaster, I am now the employer, um, I'm the supervisor for residency, I'm the supervisor for internship. Um and then I took on uh uh supervision for those who were outside of my practice as well.

SPEAKER_03

So you you were taking on all these roles and responsibilities, and because I know that the reason why you started the business has sounded like was because you wanted freedom. You wanted to create your own schedule. And it sounds like that your schedule quickly became sounds like not your own for the business. So walk me through that. When did you start to realize this isn't what I was imagining it to be when I first started this thing? Was there a moment where you kind of were like, Man, I've I've kind of created this monster in a way? And I and I did this to stop overworking myself. But here I am feeling like I'm in this overworking phase.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

Becoming A Supervisor And Scaling Up

SPEAKER_02

I think the beginning of 2024, um, I was taking the step back uh due to my health. Um, I was diagnosed with an autoimmune disorder, and I was pushing myself so much um that my immune system was just like not keeping up. So that flared up, and uh it's it took me a long time to get diagnosed. Um, and when I found out what it was, I'm like, okay, I really have to start taking a step back. So I began like telling my clients I would take a step back um and just slowly lightening my load. Um then, you know, at the time I was, you know, expecting. So I was like, okay, I have to take everything off so I can go on this medical leave. Um, so I was taking off supervision, I took off my clients, I took off um like my I I already had like a biller, so I just took off everything um so I can breathe and go to this um medical leave. And when I returned, I was like this is not fun anymore. Cause I'm slowly taking on the responsibilities again, coming back from medical leave. And I was like, this is different. Um I'd gone from waking up and taking my time and being calm and centered to running around with a chicken, like a chicken without a head. Um and my sister was the one to like call me out on it. She's like, hey, you've just been you've just been different since you got back to work. You've just like been going nonstop. Uh and that was an eye-opener. I wouldn't say that was the eye-opener. Uh, but we're we're in 2025 and um I'm thinking I need to do all these things to make everybody happy because if it not necessarily salary, this is what I believed. Like it's not necessarily what you pay people, um, it is how you treat them and the environment and the culture. Um, no, it's not paying pennies. Um, but we had a great culture. Um, and uh I was always making sure, like, okay, making make sure, like, okay, is if this is what you need, then let me go figure this out for you. Um and in in that sense, I had encouraged the idea that ask me anything and I will provide it for you versus them taking on like the responsibility of being their um in the driver's seat of their own career.

SPEAKER_00

Sure.

SPEAKER_02

I was like, oh, I'll take care of it, I'll take care of it. And meanwhile, I'm stressed. Um, like I gotta do this thing, I gotta do this thing, I have to pay for um the specialty training. Like I'm thinking like I need to do all of these things because um it'll make them happy and that that will help them to stay. And I'm gonna keep the culture of this environment and keep it going. Um and it just slowly started falling apart. Uh, and that's when I met you.

SPEAKER_03

Well, I would love to back up with that too, because I'm curious. It I saw you know, you came back from leave and you started to just hit the ground running. I'm curious of your perspective of why. Because I see that there's two, I guess, to simplify it, two main reasons why. It's it's structural, meaning that we just literally don't have the systems, we don't have the infrastructure, we don't have those skills in place to really make sure we're not doing everything. And then it's personal, yeah. Meaning that, and we've gone through this a lot, where we use it as a way to cope with certain things.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

When Freedom Turns Into Overwork

SPEAKER_03

And of course, our brain's not gonna tell us that. No, it's gonna say you have to, and this is what's required. And so for you, what what was that? Was it personal? Was it structural? Was it both?

SPEAKER_02

I couldn't figure out what I needed structurally. I couldn't figure out I need, I couldn't figure out the role that I needed. And I'm searching, I'm I'm trying to figure this out. Um, I remember uh talking to um two of my former employees and preparing them for like 2026 and just be like, hey, I'd like you to take on this role, and then I'd like you to take on this role. Um, and that one, keep it in-house. Um, and I know these are people that care about the business, care about the culture, they've been here the longest, and that would help, you know, provide the structure, and I'd be able to take a step back.

SPEAKER_03

Right. For me. So the plan was I'm gonna hire in a way promote from within.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, promote from within. And this person would be like um I think I'd say like pre program director, and then this person would be the clinical supervisor um and or administrative supervisor. And I'm like, yeah, I this is possible, I can do this. Um, it aligned with their um with their when they'd get their license and things like that. So like, yeah, uh this this is great. I just have to wait. Um and you know wait for what? I I just have to wait until 2026. Right.

SPEAKER_03

Until until you had permission to do what?

SPEAKER_02

Um, I think I thought they were gonna be licensed at that time in 2026. So I was trying to align those promotions with that.

SPEAKER_01

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_02

Um I had the conversation, I would say like mid maybe like August, September, uh, with um those individuals in in 2025. Um and preparing them, like, hey, this is I'd like you to take on these roles. Um what are your thoughts regarding this? And they seemed like really excited um to do it. So I was like, okay, this is amazing. We can um we can do this. And of course, um it was I was also looking at you know, sustainability, um, dealing with insurance. You can't just only deal with insurance. As you know, at that time I'd, you know, applied for a government contract as I was gonna expand services. Um, okay, this is an avenue where I'm not silly dependent on insurance. Um, and this can boost salaries, this can, you know, do all the things um that I'm looking to do for the people that take care of this business. Because again, if you take care of your people, they take care of their business. And that's that was my mindset.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and that makes sense. And I know that we've talked a lot about there's that structural side and the side of like, well, people in my circle have done this. There's the logic to it of you just have these steps, you take these steps, and these things will happen.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Reflecting back on that now, do you feel that growing and expanding the practice truly came from a place of your heart? Or was it more so you felt like it was the logical suppose to next step?

Health Wake Up Call And Medical Leave

SPEAKER_02

Definitely the logical suppose to next step. Um, even when I was initially hiring people, I was like, Okay, on paper, you're good. Let's hire you. Um, and I even had to change the way I hired. Um, and I went with my gut and how they would contribute to the community um that I was trying to create. And when I hired differently, they showed up differently. I was like, okay, so um I had like great success with um two people that I hired. I had advice from a colleague and um, and then I was like, okay, it's it's time to to do this again. And I thought I did the same thing, but even that round was hiring from a place of, oh, I just have to grow. I have to do X, Y, and Z. I have to like follow these steps. This is what they did, this is what I should do too.

SPEAKER_03

When you say they, was that your colleagues?

SPEAKER_02

Oh, yeah. This is um, this is colleagues, this is feedback from, you know, uh the social media um professional groups.

SPEAKER_03

Um and but everybody does, so you should do that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Uh even like consulting with a couple people as well. Um, and it's like, okay, this is the the logical next step. And there's been a lot of now, I know what I should have done differently. Obviously, hindsight is 2020. No, you're good.

SPEAKER_03

Well, looking back, I'm curious what were some of the early signs that I talk a lot about the difference between egocentric desires and heart-centric desires. Because I I feel that to an extent, in order for us to experience, in order for us to know what we do want, we have to experience what we don't want. So that alone, I don't feel is the problem. I think it's when we experience what we don't want and we still try to force what we don't want anyway. And so I'm curious, you reflecting back on that now, were there early signs in your body and your reality that were telling you, hey, this isn't really truly what you want. This is what you were told you should want.

SPEAKER_02

Um my body, um uh anybody who's done bodies knows and has said, like, hey, your back is like a two by four. Um I've constant stress, constant tension, um, constant just uh worsening of like autoimmune um disorders. Uh but I was just like, oh, this is just like my body. It's ironically, I know the mind and body are like connected, but I didn't put two and two together that the work I'm doing is causing my body to break down.

SPEAKER_03

What was the story that you were telling yourself instead?

SPEAKER_02

Um, I thought I was like, I just have to manage my stress better. Um, I'm not managing stress. And that's what they tell you.

SPEAKER_03

Like, it's my fault.

The Trap Of People Pleasing Culture

SPEAKER_02

It's my fault. Exactly. That's not the underlying message. Like, my body can't keep keep up. No, you gotta keep up. Like, just keep going. Like, we in Caribbean culture, like you just kind of like put your head down and keep going. You don't really pay attention to your body. Um, and I was just so disconnected, just so disconnected because I I couldn't put those two together. So sometimes when you ask, like, you know, when was that point that you realized? And I'm like, it's really hard for me because it was never like, not I don't say never, because I do have a heart for this business, um, for the mental health field. And I also feel like I'm not done with it. Uh it's very something, very much something that's like near and dear to my heart at the same time. Um, I was just going with this is what I should do. Um, and being uh my type of neurodivergence is like I'm following the rules. Like this is the path. And there's no diverting from the path.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And this is the path I've seen others take. So logically, if I do the same thing, I'm gonna get the same outcome.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um logic fine. And it just it doesn't work that way.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. If you were if you were a client of yours, what would you go back? What would what would be the advice that you would go back and tell yourself?

SPEAKER_02

Hit me with hard questions, Red End. Um go back and tell myself who was going through this.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, as you were as you were, because it sounds like you were forcing growth. It sounds like that. And tell me if this isn't true, because I've done this as well. Because of the shoulds, we gave so much power to it we were sacrificing our personal selves to get there. We were sacrificing our health, maybe our relationships, our well-being, our peace, because we believe that there's that's just the price of success. We believe that's just the cost of entry because that's what everybody else does.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And so knowing that that's what you were doing, if you could go back and talk to that version of yourself, what would be the advice that you give them?

Hiring From Shoulds Versus Gut

SPEAKER_02

Oh man. Um I would tell them go back to plan A. And I've told you about this, like, what was plan A for me? Um, and really have them like sit with that, why didn't you go with plan A? And what do you feel is the disconnect that you're having with the path you're on now versus the path that you initially wanted to be on? Um and sometimes I like I initially like I wanted to work in you know publishing, and um I would just have this voice in my back of my head, like, oh, I can't do that. Oh I've seen people who go through this, the English literature classes, like I can't do that. Um and it was just so small and and it happened so quickly that uh but it but it made me do uh uh incredible decisions, like monumentally big life decisions. So I didn't take an English class. So plan A for you was just to be just to um, I went to be a writer, I wanted to become an an editor, um uh and and work in publishing. That was like where I wanted to be.

SPEAKER_03

Your big thing.

SPEAKER_02

That was my big thing. And um somewhere along the way, I I I said to myself that you are not good enough to do that. Like I was judging my you know, square one to you people's like square a thousand. Like they've already established themselves versus when they first started.

SPEAKER_03

Where do you think that voice came from?

Body Signals And Survival Conditioning

SPEAKER_02

Ooh, um to be honest, I'm not sure. I thought about that a lot. I thought about that a lot because I'm able to trace back certain negative voices to like uh communities or um a particular person or uh society. Uh I think I you know, I I think one of the messages that I was getting was that I wasn't um I'd see the the depictions of these people who worked in journalism or worked um for a magazine and became editors, and um I was like, oh man, I can I can't do that. Um I'm not I don't see myself there. Like, so I oh I can't do that. I remember watching Gilmore Girls. That was my favorite show growing up. And yes, I'm like very like influenced by like TV uh and movies. Like again, that's part of um my neuro divergence. And again, I did not learn that about myself until like 2019. So living this whole life and not realizing like, oh yeah, I'm like, you know, um making these important decisions or being influenced in such a great way from these TV shows and movies. But with Gilmore Girls, she wants to be a journalist. Um, and she ends up uh working at the paper she wants to work at. I think she was uh interning there. And uh the boss there, um, who also happened to be her boyfriend's dad, was like, uh, you don't got it. And I saw myself as her because I was quiet. I was like, my head was always in the books, like um I I loved Rory. I was Rory, minus, you know, rich grandparents. Um but that's who I saw myself. I was like, wow, if she can't do it, and she's just like me, where is there a place where the introverted, nerdy, black, Caribbean girl, where can she be successful?

SPEAKER_03

So you almost sounds like unconsciously formed that conclusion in your mind. And it's interesting because as you know, I work a lot with beliefs and I my own experiment in a lot of ways, and uh one thing I've figured out in some capacity is that beliefs are decisions. And so, and and it's before we even really know what we're doing. So it sounds like you you came to this decision of I just can't do this, it's not for me. And how do you feel like that? That decision shaped the rest of your path since you decided that you couldn't do it. How did that shape the rest of your journey and entrepreneurship?

SPEAKER_02

Oh man. Um I even took off journalism as my major right before going to college. So when I was placed in the dorm, I was with all the journalism folks, but I was listed as undecided.

SPEAKER_00

Wow.

SPEAKER_02

So I took that off. I I can't remember the exact reason why I took that off, but I remember it. I was like, well, we don't have a place for undecided, so you're still gonna be where we we placed you. So as early as that.

SPEAKER_03

That's symbolic. Very symbolic.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it's it's it's it's a pivotal moment there. And I remember trying different things. I I was like, uh, I'm gonna go into uh what was it? Sports psychology, not sports psychology, it was sports something. Um uh public relations. I'm gonna, there's all these different things. And then I I went back to psychology because I'm like, oh yeah, I'm I'm good at this. I'm very observant. Um, I it makes sense to me. And I guess like also being like the wallflower and just a lot of times in observing roles, I was always like, okay, well, why don't I fit in with that front group if I like logically, if I do X, Y, and Z, I should be able to do to get there. Right. And then I'm slowly like tweaking it. I'm like, okay, well, they behave this way. So I should tweak it this way. So I was becoming less authentic.

SPEAKER_03

You're paying attention to the behavior, not how the behavior made you feel. It's like it's paying attention to the logic, but not the energy.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

The Dream She Dropped And Why

SPEAKER_02

And I was trying to, you know, be somebody I was not. I was trying to tone down my meanness just to like, you know, fit in. And I was doing a terrible job of fitting in, by the way. It's just no. They they saw something, it was like, not it. Um, so the more authentic I became, the more I was able to attract um the people that I'm like now near and dear friends with.

SPEAKER_03

What does authenticity mean to you? Because that word I feel is used a lot. And I think that depending on the person using it, I think it's I agree with the definition and I don't. So I'm just I'm just curious.

SPEAKER_02

It's now it's it's one of those buzzwords now. Um, it just means to show up as your true self. To me, that's what it means. There's no mask, there's no I am performing. This is me, it's very vulnerable to um to show up as your true self. So there's no shield, there's no guardrails, there's no protection. There's just you. Take me as I am. All the parts, all flaws and all.

SPEAKER_03

What have you found in your journey that's been required of you in order to access that true self?

SPEAKER_02

Oh, lots of therapy.

SPEAKER_03

Therapy.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_03

Because I guess I want to also piggyback to Yes.

SPEAKER_02

Because I don't feel like I answered your previous question. No, you're good.

SPEAKER_03

Well, I want to so you you went on this path as an entrepreneur.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

You had a realization that the thing that you were trying to build was not the thing you actually wanted, and now you're on this different path. And so this has been recent.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, in your life. All very recent.

SPEAKER_03

All very recent.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, live.

SPEAKER_03

What's what's yeah? So tell me what did you start when the hustle and grind stopped working, when the outer work stopped working, when your body and mind finally got to a place where it said, You're done. I'm not giving you access to this anymore. What did you have to start doing? And what did you start to realize?

SPEAKER_02

First of all, like I've always hustle and grind has always been like one of those terms that I'm like, oh no, I can't do that. That's just like a lot of energy, it's a lot of work. And I was just like, you just have to, you know, you're doing the work and you're aligned, okay? This before I met you, and I'm thinking I'm doing that thing.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_03

So you're thinking you're not hustling and grinding. You think that you're taking aligned action?

SPEAKER_02

I'm taking aligned action. Okay. I was lost in the sauce, man. Like, this is so disconnected, not piecing, putting those pieces together. Um, and now I forget your initial question.

SPEAKER_03

You're good. So, yeah, I think like, what did you start to have to do when you realize, oh wow, I'm in this paradigm.

Authenticity And The Work To Access It

SPEAKER_02

I needed to be still and hear myself. When I was on medical leave, I could hear myself very clearly, my true self very clearly. It was like I was in the room. And then when I went back to everything, I just kept getting fainter and fainter and fainter. And I had to sit down. Um I had to sit down and take off the walls with myself and let, you know, all the thoughts I had, all the unhelpful thoughts I had, to even those things come up and not just immediately shut them down and compartmentalize it. Um, I had to take out all the inner walls and see what's going on. And uh my therapist for forced me to do that. Uh you forced me to do that. I think it was like the combination of the both of y'all.

SPEAKER_03

Force sounds aggressive.

SPEAKER_02

Well, I wouldn't say force well I think you need to give yourself more credit. Yes. I would say like encouraged heavily by that. Uh no, um I wouldn't say force, but challenged me. And I I knew I was tired of the way I was living life, and I wanted something different. Um, I remember uh uh doing our consultation, and even that, I was like, you know, I'm just gonna be my true self and see how this goes. Um, because I can while I can be a little bit gullible, I also have a good bullshit meter. Um am I allowed to say that? Um you can cast. Okay, yes. Um, but I I at times I can do that. I'm a New Yorker, like you you kind of have that. Um, but when you spoke, I was like, oh, he sees me. He sees what's going on and the pieces that need to move, um, and so the other pieces can fall into place. And that was, I was like, okay, I I hadn't had that with somebody outside of therapy. Um, and it was very disarming, especially as we began the work. Very disarming. Um, and I was just like, you gotta be open, you know, you want something different, you gotta do something different. So it was it was a lot of challenging um of my beliefs and actionable steps. Um, my type of neurodivergence works well with a therapist and a coach, apparently. Um because like there's that we were reading like weekly and that weekly accountability.

SPEAKER_03

It's deep work. When I was back when I was doing one-on-one, it's very uh what's the word? I would say confrontational is a good word. Yeah, and it's interesting.

SPEAKER_02

It's not uncomfortable confrontational.

Warrior To Seeker And Letting Armor Go

SPEAKER_03

Well, and it can't it can be, yeah, you know, and I think um I've thought about this a lot of what is truly required of this specific kind of soul, this person who has built a life of external success only to feel empty inside. And they've thought they've done everything they were supposed to do and that they should do, and they don't feel happy. And by all of societal opinions and standards, and maybe even the people around them, they should feel happy, but they're not, and why? And that's been a very that's the question that keeps playing in my mind over and over and over again, and and what I feel is required is in the way I think about it, is we build this survivor self armor, and that survivor self is a way to protect us from feeling a certain way, and it comes as a result of the decisions and conclusions that we've made about ourselves, and a lot of that is I'm not good enough as I am, so I gotta put on this fancy armor to feel good enough, and that becomes the thing that protects us at first, becomes the thing that suffocates us. And then we get to a point where the armor becomes so heavy and we're losing so much oxygen that we have to let our soul breathe. And and so we're forced a lot of times, whether it's through a health issue, through a drastic external circumstance, that maybe if we're not looking at things from the correct lens, seems to be something happening to us as a victim. We're given the gift of peak pain. They call this in recovery the gift of desperation. And it always focuses back inward. And then we have to look at how do I take this armor off? How do I deconstruct this version of myself that I created to survive that was never meant to be permanent, and that has been corrosive and has been toxic and has been just destroying me from the inside out. And it's so interesting because it's not outer work, it's not ambition, it's not working harder, it's very much so messy, uncomfortable inner work. And it seems so counterintuitive to the personality of the hustler and the high achiever and what I call the warrior because how I've gotten to this level of success has been through doing whatever it takes. And so going inward feels weak, uncertain, and scary. And I feel that what's required to really make that transition from the warrior to the seeker, from that external accomplishment person to the emotional fulfilled person is going from borrowed certainty of I'm living my life based off of validation from others to inner knowing, sovereignty. I'm doing this because my heart and my soul is telling me to. And we have to really learn how to like stop valuing certainty so much and value more of self-trust.

Uncertainty As Freedom In Practice

SPEAKER_02

Yes. Um, I'm chuckling to myself because this is the second time this week that someone's talking to me about uncertainty. So, as you know, like I'm trained in interpersonal neurobiology. And the creator of that, Dr. Dan Siegel, had another training uh this week. And I took it because I like I wanted to brush up on some skills, get some more like tangible tools. And he talks about, you know, uncertainty. Um and he he uses a bunch of like different quotes from poets, from uh there's a quote in the Brooklyn, Brooklyn Public. Library from Rajid again. I can't say it off the top of my head, but he did say he has to remind himself that uncertainty is synonymous with freedom and possibility. And that like again, that has sat with me, that has been like circling in my head since that meeting. It was like a four-hour training. And of course I took a lot of different notes, but that's what's been staying with me. And it reminds me of this quote, like uh, you know, this random quote somewhere like if somebody sells you certainty, um, it's snake oil.

SPEAKER_03

It's uh yeah, it's it's an illusion. It's it's it's truly like that's such a powerful quote. I need to put that in my pocket and give credit to him.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And it's interesting because it it it seems so risky when we start to do it. And what I've been experiencing in my life, because I'm in the middle of this too. It's it's I always tell anybody I work with, and I I want people to know like I'm in this liminal space of I'm learning what it truly means to embody trust and to be sovereign and to live a life that is not built from survival-based conditioning. And that's such a feels like such a lonely road when you've built your entire life in opposition to that.

SPEAKER_02

And it feels like it because it is.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And because it's counterculture. Right. Um it's going against the the narrative of well, I'm I'm just gonna say the US because we're in this country. Um, it goes against the narrative of capitalism.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. It's like what what it's been buried. This this knowing of like how to live life and this knowing of how to be our true selves and authentic. This idea in my head of like there's people at the top that are puppeteering a culture to where it's sucking people's souls and everybody's sick and stuff like that. I more have so the belief of it's been a compounding effect of unconscious living. It's like people like lost sight of their humanity because of all this stuff.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I I'm totally in agreement. And this is less about like the puppeteering, but just the the very nature of the US is like individualism, it is capitalism. True. Is capitalism part of um, individualism is part of capitalism?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um, it is survivor mode, it is, oh, you gotta work hard, it is pull yourself up by your bootstraps, is like you gotta get to the top. Being at the top is the only kind of like success, and define success as very like one-dimensional. So when you have that like narrative and it's it's embedded in the culture, yeah. It's so easy to go to like this is our default, this is the unconscious part. Um, so like we're definitely like both saying like the same thing. It's it's so easy to go back there. And it's so you're saying like it seems risky because it is risky. Like, oh my gosh, I have to be vulnerable with myself.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

What?

Values Seasons And Breaking Survival Loops

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And it's and it's like it's so, yeah. And especially in the beginning, I feel, and maybe you're experiencing this, even if you, even when you've accumulated a certain, it's a special kind of scary when you've accumulated material success in a society that you have to use those things to survive. It's it's a different dimension of faith that's required when you when you make money from doing something that you're competent at, but you don't like, and then you give that up to do the thing that you love to do, but maybe you're not making as much money from it yet. It requires a different level of faith. And my belief and what I'm starting to experience is if you give up that part of the whole borrowed certainty thing is this idea that stability comes from wealth and materialistic things. Yes. And and I'm not ignorant to say, because I've been homeless, I'm not ignorant. If you don't have your basic needs met, food, water, shelter, this is a different conversation. This is for people who have those things met. At a certain point, once you get past that hierarchy of need, yeah, really does become a question of what do you value? Do you value that false certainty and that, yeah, just like a life that you maybe have everything you could ever want, but you feel empty inside, or do you value fulfillment and satisfaction and and living in alignment with your soul path? And I feel that you it's a decision to make. It's either you continue to go down the path of the ego, which is so much you basically you're gonna live the same six months over and over and over again.

SPEAKER_02

And that's scary.

SPEAKER_03

That's terrifying to me. So when I when I think about when I get scared of the uncertainty or the fault, you know, this path that we're on, yeah. I always think to myself, what's more scary? Putting it all on the line and just following my dreams and doing everything I possibly can to create that for my heart, or playing it safe and having everything in the the the image I always go to is being in a mansion without a family, right? Or or having all this stuff with a hole in my heart.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

It's like, what's is that really risky? I feel like that's riskier. Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_02

It is, and you'd be amazed how many people live that way. Yeah, because okay, I have all the things that bring um safety and security, which is money is the house. Uh there's a hole in the heart, but uh at least I have the money and I'm okay.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_02

Um, it's very hard because we did say like there is that like counterculture um thing going on. Um, we don't live in a community-oriented culture. Yeah. In a collector collection. You have to like fight for it. You have to fight for it. Um and there is like some intersectionality um of it because you know, we're you were saying earlier, like, you know, you have to have like your basic needs met. Um and at the same time, this choice that we're doing, um, you have to sit with yourself and be in in alignment with your values.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So if you need to, you're probably not gonna like this. Um no, not like that. Oh my gosh. Um, there's some things that you'll like you need to come face to face with because the reality is different for black and brown people. So, you know, sometimes that person is like, you know, the first person in in their family to make it this far, or they're just like one generation away from poverty, or um, they're one decision away. So that's why, like when with this talk, it's very much like, okay, what resonates with you if this is not for you at this time, um, that is okay. It could be for you at a later date. But also, this is like very much a you decision. And again, looking at what are your values right now, right? Because I know we're eventually going to go to the values part. Um, and then seeing like what decisions, you know, haven't been aligned with um your values. Like you can have certain values and not be in survival mode. What, you know, decisions and behaviors are keeping you in survival mode, um, but what decisions will you be aligned with that can, you know, provide that stability or level of like safety and security that you need to survive or to live rather, um, in order to further go down that path.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Yeah. What's very true? And I think that at the end of the day, it's about the season you're in.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And it's, I think that the problem comes from when you're not being honest with yourself about the season that you're in.

SPEAKER_02

That is so true.

SPEAKER_03

Like for me, I'm past where's the wood in here? In my business, for example, I'm no longer in survival mode.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And for me, there's a lot of things that I had to do or felt like I had to do initially for my business in my life to get to a certain level of security from a materialistic standpoint. However, I will say that I kept myself in survivor mode way too long. So what we do is when we believe deep down we don't deserve a certain level of success or abundance or ease or peace, we recreate circumstances in our life to keep us in a state of survival because even if it's killing us, it's comfortable.

SPEAKER_00

Yep.

SPEAKER_03

And I think that the discernment of knowing what season you're truly in is so important. Because even right now in my life, I feel the way I feel, and and the way I think I play with intuition and logic is the same way as like thunder and lightning. It's like lightning happens first, that's your intuition, and then thunder happens after, that's your logic.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_03

And so the way I think of in my intuition, there's been so many times I've known I don't need to worry about this. I've known something's coming.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I've known I can just, I need to chill.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And I need to slow down and be at peace. Yeah. If I allow logic to take the wheel, I will literally recreate the same reality that I was outgrowing. And that's the that's the weird part about this liminal space that happens. And you're going through this right now, gosh, where you've changed your your inner understanding of yourself and the world. You've changed your beliefs, which shapes your perspective and shapes the world around you. And then what starts to happen is all the things in your physical reality that don't reflect that new belief system starts to collapse.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And then if we only pay attention to logic, then our brain's going to tell us I'm doing something wrong.

SPEAKER_00

Yep.

SPEAKER_03

I need to rush to fix it. It's going to try to hold on.

SPEAKER_02

Yep.

SPEAKER_03

Because that's what the ego and the brain does. So that's when we have to understand if I just allow myself to wait, if I allow myself to move in faith, if I just, if I trust that on the other side of this is going to be the thing for my highest good, if we stay loyal to that identity, then what's going to happen is eventually our reality will catch up.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And that's the hardest part, I believe, in my experience, between the transition of the warrior and the seeker.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_03

And I feel that a lot of people would probably get out of survivor mode a lot quicker. I know I would have. If we knew what was happening and we listened to that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And and so that's as far as it, and there was times in your life where you were we were still asleep. We didn't have any sense of knowing of our true self. We were completely in the unconscious state.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Where we didn't have a choice.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

We were just in survival mode, and that's fine. And I feel that we walk that path for a reason. And so, with all that being said, I'm curious, Lauren, because um the time is is getting thin here.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_03

What are for the person who is going through this transition of external accomplishment to internal fulfillment, who is making that move, what is your advice for that person?

SPEAKER_02

You know I'm in the thick of it. Why would you listen? Okay. So I will say before um, when you're talking about that repeat loop, it is so unconscious. It's very much, so we talk about in like attachment theory, like, and what you're bringing people towards uh from the warrior to the seeker is very much bringing people into a secure attachment with themselves. Um, so that's the way to like put a little therapy lens on it.

SPEAKER_03

Hell yeah. That's good. I like to say woo-hoo and I like to say practical. I like both.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. So there's so much aligned. There's there's so much aligned. Um, and there's neuroscience to back it up too. So that's what I'm here for. Uh so it is uncomfortable as all heck. And you're fighting against every survival reflex or instinct to catch what's falling apart and trying to fix it and put it um back together somehow to save and salvage what you spent 10 years going to wars, or however many years that you've invested in this particular vision. Um gosh, is it's so so much restraint, so much patience. Um and the keyword is trust and faith. Uh one of your Brendanisms, I used to say, is you or Brendan Bitz, Brendan Bitz. Um working shopping it. Um we once you take the one step, the next step will appear. Gosh, I hate that so much. Uh this is the first time like really, really like going by faith of what is to come, what is for my my internal um fulfillment, my internal good. Um I'm still in the midst of it. Um I would say surround yourself with people who know um what you were trying to do. Uh I really, really, truly believe in community. You cannot do this in isolation. Um, it's going to strengthen your resolve and give you a sense of accountability. No, you're not having somebody like, okay, you gotta check this, check this, check this, but just someone to walk alongside you. Who knows? Oh yeah, I'm in the deconstruction phase and also simultaneously reconstruction and also consistently assessing my values and and sitting with myself to listen to my true self to see like, is this in alignment with what I want? And how am I living in alignment with my values in these different domains of my life? Like, am I trusting my inner knowing? Am I still hearing myself? So it's it's not something that you can do alone.

SPEAKER_03

I love that. Yeah, because I feel like so many times people there's this theory called the lonely chapter that people talk about a lot. And the idea is whenever you're in this liminal space, part of the prerequisite of it is you kind of have to walk it by yourself. And I love that you're not buying into that because I think that there's definitely people that are not meant to stay in your life. However, there are people that are meant to help you through that liminal space. Yeah. So I love that you brought that up.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And when you're able to be with yourself more, um, because being alone is not necessarily being lonely. There are some times where you know you're reflecting on by yourself. And when you're hearing yourself, you also develop a level of discernment of, you know, who is for you and who's gonna, you know, help this, you know, um, part of you that is growing. Um, and adding another thing, awareness is key. Like working with you, I can't unring this bell.

SPEAKER_03

Once you wake up, you can't go back to sleep.

SPEAKER_02

No, you can't go ahead and sleep. Like it's freaking matrix, man. Um, like you can't, you can't go back to sleep. Um, and I I don't want to. I don't have that desire. I don't feel like being asleep. I don't feel like being a cogging machine or living an unfulfilled life. Like, this is the only life I have. Um, this is the only body that I have. And I want to live life to its fullest and with the most fulfillment I can get from it.

SPEAKER_03

Well, it's been amazing to watch you do that. And to your credit, like you you have taken the reins. And I I feel that there's a point of no return. And you and if it brings you comfort, you've already passed that point.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_03

And I think the hard part, the hard part is not doing it, it's making the decision to do it. I think that we spend so much time avoiding that decision that once you finally make it, it's like, all right, this is the path we're going down. And that's a superpower of yours because you just told me with your neurodivergence, that's what you did just the other way. Right. So now you're doing it in the way that's serving you. And yeah, it's been awesome to get to know you and you have amazing advice. And I would love to know how can people support you? Shout yourself out. Where can they find you? How can they support your business?

SPEAKER_02

Oh my gosh. Okay, shout out to me. Um let's see, let's see. Um obviously, I own Arena Counseling as on through Chop and Forest. Um, I'm now working with self-pay clients, uh, doing longer sessions, 75-minute, 90-minute sessions, not typically covered by insurance, um, focusing on first and second generation Americans who are high-achieving professionals. So we're a little bit aligned here.

SPEAKER_03

Um I'll just start referring people to you because I'm not doing one to one club.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I was like, yeah, this like this really does fit. Um, and you know, doing uh, I like to do uh book club workshops. I'm just wrapping up our summer one with uh all about love uh by Bell Hooks. And we're gonna do one for the fall winter time. So very excited about that. But yeah, and we're sector new clients.

SPEAKER_03

Amazing. Yeah, please support Lauren. I'll put your links in the description. And this is awesome. Thank you. There definitely needs to be a part two.

SPEAKER_02

We can dive into Yes, I'd love to do a part two with you.

SPEAKER_03

Thanks, Lauren.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, no problem, Brennan. Thanks for having me.