E25: Vintage Base Ball Brings The 19th Century Back To Life

Link to the National Assoc of Historic Base Ball Clubs 

Baseball changes completely when you strip away gloves, modern habits, and the assumptions we’ve all carried since Little League and it becomes Base Ball (two words!). We sit down with Tom “Big Bat” Fesolowich, a 30-year veteran of vintage 19th century baseball, coordinator at Old Bethpage Village Restoration in New York, and the longtime force behind the New York Mutuals. He walks us through how “vintage baseball” isn’t theater, it’s competitive ball played under carefully researched rules from a specific year, often 1864, with teams working hard to keep the language, uniforms, and on-field behavior historically accurate.

We get into the fan experience first: old benches, blankets, picnics, and a rare setting where you can look around and see almost nothing modern. Then we hit the big shockers, like playing without gloves (Tom has the broken fingers to prove it), using a softer “lemon peel” baseball, and even playing with rules that feel upside down today. One bounce can be an out. You can’t overrun first base. Fair or foul depends on where the ball first hits the ground. Even the umpire’s approach to balls and strikes can start with a warning before anything is called.

Along the way we trade nickname stories, talk about keeping anachronisms off the field, and hear an all-time tale featuring Bill “Spaceman” Lee that captures how funny and fiercely competitive this game still is. If you’ve ever wanted a hands-on way to connect with baseball history, this is your roadmap. Subscribe, share with a baseball fan who loves the old game, and leave a review with the strangest vintage rule you’d want to bring back.

Email us at fungosandfastballs@gmail.com

Transcript

Nicknames And The Cold Open

SPEAKER_02 0:02

On weekends all around North America, vintage baseball, two words thank you, is being played using old rules and traditional uniforms by players named Bulldog, Beer Tab, and Schoolboy. On today's episode, we have a special guest to tell us all about this fun look into baseball's past. Brooke, what do you think my nickname would be if I played vintage baseball?

Brooke 0:23

Sorry, we've talked about nicknames on past episodes before. Chipper got cut by the family on the Tipper Jones episode. I know. We cut Chipper, and then you tried to pull T-Bone in. That did not work.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

Yeah, you cut out your own nickname.

Brooke 0:37

No, no. And so I tried to look. I said, well, Jerry meatball dines. It's a baseball term. I said, oh, I don't know about that. But I think I'm going with sort of just your look. And I'm going with Jerry Greybeard dines.

SPEAKER_03 0:52

Greybeard.

Brooke 0:53

Because it's got a pirate name to it. It's it's funny. I'm going with Greybeard.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

I sound like a talking character in that, but I guess I'll uh we'll talk about this later. Let's just start the episode. Hello and welcome to Fungos and Festival, the podcast of baseball history and trivia. I'm your host, Jerry Dyme. Let's jump into today's episode. Hello, listeners. Today I'm excited to have a special guest to tell us more about vintage baseball. Tom Big Bat. Let's follow it.

Brooke 1:28

I learned that term. I learned that's what you say.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

Brooke, give it a good old fear there. Tom, thanks so much for joining us today.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

Well, Tom has been involved in playing and promoting vintage 19th century baseball for 30 years. He's the coordinator of the old-time baseball program at Old Beth Page Village Restoration in New York, and the founder and president now for 28 years of the New York Mutuals. Tom, before we get into vintage baseball, we always ask new guests about their own journey into baseball, how you came to love this wonderful pastime.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Well, I started like most people started in a little league. Played for my town up till the age of about 13, fell in love with the game, follow Major League Baseball closely, and that's basically how I got started. Playing baseball as a first and third baseman, sometimes catchers.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

You have a favorite team growing up?

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Los Angeles Dodgers. Sorry, folks.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

That's a wonderful historical team. I love that. Well, many of our listeners certainly have heard about vintage baseball. I know they want more, want, you know, want to know more. Many have been exposed through the humorous, but I don't know if it gives a total impression of the Conan O'Brien sketch in 2004. Brooke may post the link. When did

Meet Tom Big Bat Jordan

SPEAKER_02 2:50

when did vintage baseball start? And then, you know, I think you've been involved since the 1990s. Is that around the time it started or even earlier?

SPEAKER_01 2:57

No, it it actually started in 1979 at the old Beth Page Village Restoration as part of a Civil War reenactment. They had the soldiers play against each other, and then it just kind of grew from there. The next uh program started in Ohio the very next year, you know, I think it was 81. And then a league formed, and the rest is kind of history. I mean, the the baseball strike in 1994 brought a real big resurgence of the sport.

SPEAKER_02 3:26

And explain vintage baseball uh to the listeners.

SPEAKER_01 3:29

Yeah, basically vintage is uh it's kind of a recreation without us knowing the results. We play authentic rules from a particular year. During the 19th century, the rules changed from year to year. So you would pick a year, research the rules from the year before and the year after, try and figure out the language and terminology of the time so that you could not put a modern spin on it, and then you would represent uh that particular year. So teams across the country play by many different years. Most common is 1864. 1864.

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Is that is that the year the mutuals usually play?

SPEAKER_01 4:06

Yeah, we usually play 1864 because it has most of the differences. Unusual uh rule set. It's the last year of the fly, the bound game, which is catching the ball in a bounce is an out. So and the actual original New York mutuals existed during that year, so we uh we kind of recreate them.

Brooke 4:26

Question for you, Tom. When you're playing, are you acting or playing a persona, or are you actually do you have a special calling, an inner calling to vintage baseball, and you just takes over?

SPEAKER_01 4:39

We don't do an actual persona because that's very difficult to do. First person reenacting is very hard to do. You have to do a lot of research on that and stay in character, but we do stay in character for an 1864 person, like you probably will see on the phone and O'Brien's skit. There were a lot of farmers on that.

Brooke 4:59

Well, my question to you is is are you a fireman since the mutuals were made up of firemen? But I've seen you with your top hat, so I'm a little confused. What was your day job?

SPEAKER_01 5:09

That's when I was an umpire. But uh personally, no, personally, I'm a retired teacher, so that's that's what I did back then. But the mutuals were firemen. Uh in quotes, they got paid for that. Kind of like uh no-show job almost.

SPEAKER_02 5:28

Yeah, I think we had read the mutuals were owned by boss tweed or run by boss tweed, the uh Tammany Hall boss. So are you are you suggesting that they played baseball and didn't really do the job that they uh claimed they had?

SPEAKER_01 5:41

Uh yeah, that was pretty common. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 5:46

Now, the New York Mutuals are part of a larger league throughout the Northeast, right? I read Pennsylvania and even Maine and New York and New Jersey, Delaware.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Yeah, we're we're part of the National Association of Historic Baseball Clubs, which I'm an advisor for. We have over 30 teams. The requirements to be part of that is you have to play baseball historically

Where Vintage Baseball Started

SPEAKER_01 6:10

accurate as possible. There are, you know, without getting too far into it, there are other programs out there that have little customs and things that aren't necessarily historically accurate. So we try and keep it right right on the money as far as accuracy is concerned.

SPEAKER_02 6:28

Yeah, are there people with like uh the uh you know the rules from I don't know, like 1884 or other other other time frames?

SPEAKER_01 6:38

Yeah, yeah. What what normally will happen like if we go to them or they come to us, we'll play one our year and one their year.

SPEAKER_02 6:45

Okay, are there like Midwest teams or something?

SPEAKER_01 6:49

No, actually, there's a team up in Providence that plays 1884 as their main year, and that's because the Providence Greys and 1884 were national champions. So they they have the actual uniforms, replica uniforms, and follow the rules of that. So either they'll instruct us or we'll research the which we've been doing 1884 for 30 years as well, but we'll research the rules and make sure we're uh hip to what's going on.

SPEAKER_02 7:17

I think Brooke had told you in an email that uh we were heading back up to see family this summer, and we were hoping to to to come out to a game. What what's the experience for a fan? What can they expect?

Brooke 7:27

I'm wondering if you'd paint the scene for us. If I walk onto the field, what what will I expect to see? And what should I how should I act when I'm there?

SPEAKER_02 7:35

Don't walk out on the field, Brooke. You get hit by a ball.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

Yeah, you don't want to get hit by these balls. No. We have a funny story, a real quick, funny one. Uh walking out on the field, uh, we have uh a pitcher, former pitcher on our team, was known as a jokester. His name was Eric Express Micklick. And someone is someone in the crowd was asking where they can get a hat, the you know, the uh the old-fashioned hat. And in his joking way, he said, We were playing an overhand game, an 1880s game, and uh he told him, told the person to go out and talk to the umpire, who at the time is standing behind the pitcher. So mid-game, she just strolls on out to ask our umpire Gary, the one you see in the Conan sketch, where where she can get a hat and stop the whole game. Everybody's like, she had no clue.

Brooke 8:33

Well, well, but what to expect? I'm glad you told me that. I'll avoid that.

SPEAKER_01 8:41

What to expect is the first thing you'll notice is we don't wear gloves. That's the most common question we get, and most common uh shock moment. People will see that up until the late 1880s, players didn't wear gloves. So that's the first thing they ask is uh, you know, do you break fingers? Do you how you know what's the ball like, how soft it is. After that, we get into a lot of the rules with them, but really the uh no glove factor is usually the most amazing thing to them.

Brooke 9:13

So with the no gloves, is is there a different strategy for catching the ball? I I did read some people walk away with pretty sore hands that day.

SPEAKER_01 9:21

Yeah, personally, I've broken eight fingers. Oh I played first, yeah. I played first base and uh catcher for that guy, Eric.

Brooke 9:30

Did they not like you? Were they just throwing it too hard? They didn't like you.

SPEAKER_01 9:36

Yeah, they were throwing it hard, and I had a swart spot named Druid who threw me a curveball once and uh dislocated my thumb and so medics are on the side.

Brooke 9:46

Do you have to do the 1870s medicine too?

SPEAKER_02 9:50

They've got they've got the sawbones up there, you know.

SPEAKER_01 9:52

Yeah, I was gonna say that we're not taking any limbs off at the field.

SPEAKER_02 9:56

Uh bite down on this, drink some bourbon.

SPEAKER_01 9:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:00

Oh, we'll do the bourbon part for sure. You don't have a glove as a catcher either. And in 1864, you mentioned underhand pitching, but as anyone knows watching college or professional softball, you could still get great speed on that pitch, right?

SPEAKER_01 10:15

Absolutely, absolutely. Uh, like I said, that that gentleman Eric, who's the pitcher, threw it very swiftly. And you know, to be his catcher, you have to have a little uh no-brain activity going on.

SPEAKER_02 10:32

And so are are fans picnicking? Are there benches? Are they are they standing around like those old pictures on Coogan's Bluff and in the polo grounds watching the game from Hills or the Civil War Hills? You know?

SPEAKER_01 10:44

Yeah, we have we have old benches uh sitting around if they want to sit. Some people do bring their own chairs or blankets and picnic and make a day of it. You know, it's a it's a it's a great experience, especially at Old Beth Page Restoration, which is you'll walk down from the ticket booth or the main building, and you'll see nothing but night, you'll see this great green field and uh old houses. It's a 19th-century

Choosing A Year And Staying Accurate

SPEAKER_01 11:10

village, and you'll see nothing modern, which is one of the rarest settings I've come across in the country. And I'm not just saying that because I volunteer there, but it's it's it's a beautiful, it's a beautiful scenic spot to see a game. And there are other uh other programs that have historic play of historic villages.

SPEAKER_02 11:29

Well, you had mentioned the rules, and of course we mentioned no gloves, but tell us more about some of the 1864 rules that are that are that again viewers would be like, oh hey, this is something different.

SPEAKER_01 11:40

Yeah, well, the first one I already mentioned is the bound game. Uh, catching in 1864, catching the ball on a bounce was an out. You could catch it on a fly as well, but if if you couldn't reach it, you catch it on a bounce. So people will notice that.

SPEAKER_03 11:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

One one bounce, yeah. One bounce. The hardest one for a player to get used to is uh not overrunning first base. You could not overrun first base, or you'd be tagged. You know, most of us have been uh that have played baseball or inbred with run through the bag. Well, if you run through the bag here, you can be tagged out. Other rules is uh wherever the ball first touches the ground is what it is, fair or foul. So it doesn't have to pass first or third, like in modern baseball. So it get hit right in front of the plate, jut out into the into the crowd, and it's a live ball.

Brooke 12:32

I have a favorite old rule that I wish existed today: soaking.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

Oh yeah, soaking was done in the very early parts of the game. That was um you know, part of rounders, and you know, we're talking 1840s here. We have played games like that, and we do play rounders with the kids sometimes, and some of our players get a little too excited at soaking kids, but they do it anyhow.

SPEAKER_03 12:55

Well, tell us what soaking is, brook.

SPEAKER_01 12:58

That's not bad, bro.

Brooke 13:00

Well, from what I read, it's when a player is not on base, you can throw the ball right at him. It's like kickball rules. And and sometimes when you see these, what is it, chase downs between when the runner's going back and by just throw the ball at him, just hit him. Run down, just hit him.

SPEAKER_01 13:17

Yeah, yeah.

Brooke 13:18

Are there any rules? The balls are left off there. Are there any rules that you wish still existed today?

SPEAKER_01 13:26

Hmm. That's a good question. I mean, I like the I like the fair foul rule, which is cat wherever first strikes the ground. I I kind of like that one. I mean, obviously I like the no gloves as well, but I I guess I would have to say the fair foul one. I mean, I think Major League Baseball would be pretty boring if it was a bound rule, catching the ball on a bounce. I don't think anybody anybody would be getting hits. But you know, that's probably the fair foul rule.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

And as far as the field itself, the bases are still 90 feet apart, right? But you're pitching closer.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

Pitching 45 feet. 45 feet. 45 feet, right? No mound. Pitchers pitching distance you basically have two within six 1864, you have two lines three feet apart, so 45 and 48 feet from the plate, and you had to uh pitch within those lines. That area changed a lot throughout the 19th century. Eventually it did become a box, which is where you get the the uh term pitcher's box from. But uh that area changed a lot through the 19th century. All of the trying to get a balance between the hitter and the pitcher, as well as uh balls and strikes means a lot as well.

SPEAKER_02 14:40

You know, in an earlier episode on Pud Galvin, we talked about the 1880s and the the change the pitchers had to go through from probably what nine balls of

What Fans See At The Park

SPEAKER_02 14:50

strike, then seven, and then eventually to four balls at the end of the 1880s. In 1864, how many balls were a walk there?

SPEAKER_01 14:59

1864 was three balls and three strikes, but the umpire would give a warning before calling balls or strikes. So the umpire might say a striker warning, that means he's gonna call strikes from that point forward. Or ball to back, which means he's gonna throw uh call balls from that point forward. But the umpire did not have to call every pitch like you do nowadays.

SPEAKER_02 15:20

And one of my favorite rules that I know it was starting to come in around 1864, but was kind of established a little later, is is calling your strike zone. You know, you could either tell the pitcher your strike zone's high or low. Is that is that played more when you play later games, later rules, or are you playing that in 1864?

SPEAKER_01 15:37

Yeah, uh for instance, next weekend we're playing in Philadelphia, we're gonna be playing an 1876 game. And that's a high-low strike zone, which is shoulders to belt, belt to knees. And it's difficult for the pitcher to, and that's an underhand sort of could be a submarine pitch if you wanted to in 1876. But yeah, it's a harder strike zone, you know, and uh to to to hit, basically. It's a very small strike zone.

SPEAKER_02 16:06

Well, let's share some history. We we we mentioned the New York Mutuals, your team, and of course uh we had mentioned them in our 12th episode on the National League Origins, one of the original eight of the of the National League, and before that being part of you know, the National Association of uh Baseball players and professional baseball players.

Brooke 16:25

And no, Jerry, I want to hear you do the initials.

SPEAKER_02 16:28

The the NAP BPP.

Brooke 16:32

We got tongue-tied on it last time.

SPEAKER_02 16:41

Oh, that's pretty fun. But but uh was there a reason that was chosen in particular, or did you just like their history?

SPEAKER_01 16:49

Or well, I I originally was part of a team called the Brooklyn Atlantics, which had a long-storied history. And then we split off to form our another team. So when I researched the team, I looked for a team number one that uh existed during the 1864 era, but also a team that existed for an extended period of time. They existed from 1857 to 1876, and they have a very colorful history. Being one of the first National League teams, the first eight National League teams, also was attractive. And the fact that there was a photograph of the team made it my job a little easier recreating the uniform.

SPEAKER_02 17:29

The uniforms, right?

SPEAKER_01 17:30

Yeah, that's great.

Brooke 17:32

When you say your job recreating the uniforms, what what do you mean by that exactly? Did you did you put them together?

SPEAKER_01 17:39

I know now. I uh we have somebody who does it. The weavers are a very, very good uniform maker. And uh I just told I sent her the picture and she recreated it for me. Yeah, I don't stop.

SPEAKER_02 17:51

Did she use a traditional loom? And uh no, I don't know what she uses.

Brooke 17:57

No zippers, right?

SPEAKER_02 17:58

It's like look at no zippers. No zippers, yeah. And those were 1908. Well, and let's talk about that. The anachronisms, you know, that you try to avoid, not only obviously with the uniforms, but the terms, right? Give us some give us some good terms that uh that you we should or shouldn't use. You got to avoid using the terms.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

The one uh I've been getting on uh because you know, a lot of our players, uh almost all of our players come from playing either senior league ball or baseball, high school ball or college ball, and getting them to not use the terms they use during the game. The biggest one we got on recently is my dad. Uh people use that a lot, and you know, it's like or they'll throw out a yeah, or throw or throwing out a modern baseball player's name during the game. You know, the like a first baseman misses it, they'll call and say, Hey, Bill Buckner or whatever. Sorry, Boston fans. But you know, very often we'll say, Oh, Bill Buckner the the uh the ironworker, or you know, just uh make it authentic. But some favorite terms that are actually used in 1864 for me is muckle. Muckle is showing a a little bit of strength to your hitting uh muscle, if you will. And I like that one particularly because I hit the long ball, or at least I used to. But Muckles won, ginger is another one for speed, which is a lot of fun. And then you know, we have you know some fun terms, like Flappdoodle, which is uh I I

The 1864 Rules That Shock You

SPEAKER_01 19:40

use it for a particular player in the village who's known a little bit as uh a little crazy guy. Uh hi Daffy. Yeah, it's you.

Brooke 19:49

So no hot dogs, no hot dogs served out there, right?

SPEAKER_01 19:52

Because weren't they turned after no no, not yet, unfortunately. Beer did exist, though. Yes, beer.

SPEAKER_02 20:01

Beer did exist. Do you do a team check beforehand to make sure no one's wearing wrist watches or you know no one has chaos on them?

SPEAKER_01 20:10

The captain usually does the a look over of the team, and the players also self-regulate uh for the most part. And then I'm like there as a backup and I'll yell at them, uh, you know, what time is it? And they look at their watch and then we find them. You know, well, that was my next question.

SPEAKER_02 20:29

Yeah, is there how do you deal with this? Like, is there is do you shame them? Do you is there a Brooke says is there a penalty box the sin bin or is there just fines? What do you do? Dollar in the jar?

SPEAKER_01 20:41

Yeah, we we'll we'll find them, but and we'll have a we're bringing back something we did in the beginning of the mutuals, which is Kendru Court. For um that's not just you know, if people do something stupid or go out and wear the wrong uh attire during a game, we'll find them. That's fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 21:01

But not audience members, they can come in regular garb.

SPEAKER_01 21:05

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I'd be worried if they didn't.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

Well, I mean I opened the uh episode up with all the great nicknames, which of course existed throughout 19th century baseball, even 20th century baseball. And we gotta talk about yours, which is Big Bat. How do you I assume you didn't choose it yourself, right? You shouldn't choose your own nickname, right? But your own nickname.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

Actually, when I originally played, when I first started, Gary Monty, the umpire that you see in Conan, you know, saw me play on six foot five. My initial nickname was Big Man Big Bat. Um I used a forty two uh forty two inch back, forty two ounces, and you just that was just a natural, easy thing, and then it just got shortened to Big Bat.

Brooke 21:58

Well, I've gotta ask, there's a play. Player named Tom Squid Jordan, who plays out of Hicksville. Do you know him? And how do you know his nickname? What what's what's the story? I need the story.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

He's actually one of my best friends. Um, he doesn't play uh vintage anymore, but when he first came down to play at the village, he was wearing a jacket. This is this is not a great story, but he was wearing a jacket that said the wicked squids on it, a softball team he played for. And it just squid just got that's it.

Brooke 22:32

Let him know. I love the nickname. Loved it.

SPEAKER_02 22:35

That was of all the nicknames, that's the one that's got me.

Brooke 22:37

That's the one that got me.

SPEAKER_01 22:39

Uh my favorite's Daffy. I Daffy.

SPEAKER_02 22:46

You shouted out to Daffy before.

SPEAKER_01 22:49

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, he's never gonna live that down, to tell you the truth. But whatever. Yeah, he's definitely a Daffy person, so it it fits in well.

SPEAKER_02 22:58

So your memorable on-the-field moment, memorable play.

SPEAKER_01 23:05

Alright, I'll I'll tell this one. When I originally started playing on the travel team, the Brooklyn Atlantic, we went to uh Sylvania, Ohio to play for uh what they call the Sylvania Cup out there. And we were very you know, we're very competitive and wanted to win that cup. And we we showed up on a Friday night for Saturday games and Sunday games, and uh needless to say, I am a big beer drinker, I enjoy my beer, and we went out and drank Friday night and uh stayed out till like four in the morning this and that happened, and uh the captain found out about it and was very upset. I was very hungover um for the game that morning, and uh I play was playing first base, and I was you know, I don't want to brag, but I was a little bit of a key player back then, and uh they were they were mad at me, I'm yelling on the sideline, stupid, stupid, what was I doing? First ball, first pitch, line drive to my right. Basically had to dive to catch the ball, and then that was that was the beginning of everybody was like, Okay, we're good, we're good now. That's one of my and we ended up winning the cup, so it's uh it all worked out. The liquid encouragement was not bad news. No, it was not a smart idea, and there's no way I could do that nowadays.

SPEAKER_02 24:40

And so do you still play?

SPEAKER_01 24:42

I do. This is actually and probably for my teammates. Will uh this is the first they're gonna hear about it. So you got a coup hero. Oh yeah, exactly. I'm retiring from playing this year. This will be my last year. Uh oh gosh. I will still I was I was still umpire and I still run things until somebody else wants to take over. But yeah, I'm not gonna, you know, eight broken fingers is not uh it's not the only thing that's holding me back, but uh six gonna hit 65 next month and bad knees and bad fingers, and just it's my time.

Brooke 25:22

We're glad you're gonna stay involved though, because that's that's important. You'll be you'll still be out there. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 25:28

Yeah, I love it. Yeah. And and hey, look, breaking news on this podcast. How about that? I think you had mentioned on the it was the the roller out the barrel podcast that was devoted on and uh to vintage baseball that you you've had some knee issues and and whatnot, too, huh?

SPEAKER_01 25:43

Yeah, I've had uh uh uh torn ACL twice in my left knee and had a knee replacement of my left knee, ankle issues, so my right knee now needs to be replaced. So it's uh old age is catching up to me.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

Oh, it's a young man's game. You you have a lot a lot of younger players, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:03

Oh yeah, yeah. My actually my son my uh oldest son plays and now is the captain of the mutuals. So one of the captions is too.

SPEAKER_02 26:11

Brooke, you were about to ask the question. I'm sorry, I think I catch you up.

Brooke 26:13

So on that note, you say your son plays. How does someone get into this? I did notice in something I read that women are allowed to play. Is that correct? We have two women on so okay, so if someone were interested, hey, they do they need a background in baseball? What how would someone come about playing for a vintage team?

SPEAKER_01 26:33

Well, they can go to the uh nhbbc.com website, find a team in their area, and reach out to them. But it just takes some interest. Uh, teams are always looking for new players. You know, at O Beth Page Restoration, if you come down that day as a visitor and say, oh, this looks like fun, we'll suit you up. So be careful what you asked for. You know, we'll suit them up and they can play that day if they want to. We're one of the only programs that do that.

SPEAKER_02 27:04

Watch out, Brooke. You might get recruited. You don't even need to bring a glove. Oh, you're gonna get recruited.

SPEAKER_01 27:11

Definitely.

SPEAKER_02 27:12

And does this affect how you watch modern baseball?

SPEAKER_01 27:15

Like, like, you know, are you like, uh, or or yeah, I mean, uh, you know, I I love I love baseball, don't get me wrong, but some of the personalities in modern baseball really turn me off as as far as that's concerned. And then the rule changes that are going on now. I'm a traditionalist, although I do like the strike

Uniforms, Old Terms, And Fines

SPEAKER_01 27:35

challenge. This is going quicker. It's very quick. But yeah, some of the some of the changes are you know upsetting. Tom, how about modern players?

SPEAKER_02 27:46

Do you is there anyone, is there any way you can look at modern players and see if they'll translate well? You think they do okay in vintage the vintage game?

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Yeah, there's there's some modern players uh that like to get down and dirty and really uh hustle 100% of the time, which is you know part of the vintage baseball lore. Somebody like Bryce Harper comes to mind, even though you know he's uh not because he's a superstar, but because he does hustle and he does run things out. You know, you might even think of somebody like Brandon Nimmo, also, that uh would be somebody like like I won't mention any of my dodgers. I'm sorry.

Brooke 28:26

So any player who leaves a game with a very fully dirty uniform would be a good vintage player.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

Absolutely. If you're not dirty, you're not playing.

SPEAKER_02 28:35

So so Tom, the the difference is not only with the rules, but uh what about the baseball itself?

SPEAKER_01 28:41

Yeah, the baseball is uh uh different than a modern baseball. It's what they call a lemon peel or star design. It's made out of one piece of leather. It kind of forms an X on the top of the ball. The balls that we play with are a step below modern baseball because people will say, Oh, you're using a modern baseball with their hands, you're crazy. It's a little softer, it's a little softer, but not a lot. Like I said, I've broken eight fingers. It's you still have to catch it with soft hands. The ball compared to Major League Baseball, you only use one ball a game in 1864. So if the ball went into the woods, you would go hunting for it. They were expensive, and back in 1864, they were hard to find. You know, people handmade them, and it was wasn't like modern baseball, which the current rate is one ball every six pitches. So it's it's it's quite the difference.

SPEAKER_02 29:38

So you're still trying to scuff scuff it up, make it dirty.

SPEAKER_01 29:42

No, you can do whatever you want with that ball. We have a pitcher that likes uh a shout out to Dirk. Likes to stand on the ball before he pitches the first pitch.

SPEAKER_02 29:58

It's great. That's great, but no Vaseline. Well, I don't know Vaseline. I don't think Vaseline was invented. It's an old it's an old game.

SPEAKER_01 30:05

You got me on that one.

SPEAKER_02 30:06

I don't like and uh and the whole plate is is not your standard, you know, uh Pentagon there. It's uh it was round.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

Yeah, it's a round, it's a round plate, round metal plate. That's what they used back then. I mean, there's a lot of rumors on how that started, but the bottom line is it was like a 12-inch circle. Yeah. Fantastic, fantastic.

Brooke 30:28

Question then. So do you have a story of something that went horribly right or fantastically wrong?

SPEAKER_01 30:36

Well, I'll tell this story then. I'm gonna tell a cursive story. Awesome. Because that went right. That went right and wrong in the same game. Uh, we were playing, we were playing an event in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, and there was like eight to ten teams there, and we were scheduled. At the time we were, you know, to be to play 1884 rules or 1886 rules, you need an overhand pitcher and you need a catcher. And we weren't scheduled to play an overhand game, so we didn't have either. They they had a team there that needed somebody to play 1886 rules, an overhand game, and they asked if we would do it. And I was like, We really don't we don't have a pitcher. You know, the bottom line is I mean, it's it sounds easy, but with the high low strike zone and things like that, it makes it difficult. So the the the guy says to me, Well, what if we get Bill Lee to pitch for you? And I'm like, Bill Lee? The spaceman? Like, yeah, the space, the spaceman. And I'm like, okay. One of our guys volunteered to catch, uh catch, and Bill Lee was gonna pitch for us. And at the time he was in his uh early 70s, I believe. And I I they needed an umpire as well that knew the rules, so I just I volunteered to umpire. And uh, the only stipulation I had is that I don't have any gear with me, I'm gonna umpire from behind the pitcher, which in 1887 is fairly accurate, but eighty six probably not. But they said fine, umpire from behind the pitcher. So I had the experience of being behind Bill Lee while he's pitching in an 1886 game, and this guy is calling every one of his pitchers. He's saying, Watch now, I'm gonna throw low and outside. Boom, he hits low and outside. Watch now. Here comes the curve. He's throwing, and he's a super, super competitive guy. He's like, you know, if players made a mistake, he's cursing. And uh we're playing without gloves, except for the catcher. The catcher wears a glove, and a lot we had a bad game. The mutuals had a bad game. We were dropping everything, and that's a fly game, so you had to catch it on the fly, but we were dropping everything. So finally, uh, one of the players from the opposition comes up, Billy's pitching, and the guy hits a weak fly ball to the catcher in foul territory, and the catcher who has a glove goes to catch it, and it pops out of his mit and drops on the ground. Billy Billy turns to me, and excuse my language, because here it comes, fans. He says, That mother is the only mother that has a glove and he can't catch the mother ball. And he just went, he just went off. My catcher loved it because his his secondary nickname now is MF. He got his nickname. He got his nickname, but it was so cool. Yeah, it was a cool experience. So uh it

Wild Stories, How To Join, Farewell

SPEAKER_01 33:45

was great to yeah, it was great to see Bill Lee pitching and uh how competitive he was and hitting and everything. But it was also funny to have that down moment of this guy dropping the ball and Bill Lee just losing his mind.

SPEAKER_02 33:58

Oh my goodness, that's great. But yeah, the listeners I'm sure know Bill Lee, the classic Red Sox, even exposed that ended his career at the Expos, and but he's usually very Zen. But uh, yeah, but obviously gets very competitive. I actually think he's he's he's part of the uh working with the Savannah Bananas now. So he's still going strong, I think. In his I don't know, 70s?

SPEAKER_01 34:23

Uh he might be in his 80s now, beyond you. Yeah, that's true. I think they're still pitch, yeah, which is amazing. Amazing.

Brooke 34:30

And I looked up a lot of stuff. I see many of the photos are attributed to you. So is photography a hobby of yours? Or are you just the only one allowed to touch the camera? A little bit of both.

SPEAKER_01 34:44

A little bit of both. One thing I missed in my playing days is that there weren't a lot of photographers taking pictures at the time. I've always been a photographer into photography since I was a kid. As a retired teacher, I was looking for a hobby and I said, I'm gonna bring back photography. And I I took pictures of the team earlier during my playing career when I wasn't playing. And I I actually I'm a professional photographer now, so I'm making uh a little bit of money at it, but I enjoy taking pictures and I currently shoot for a c local college too. Uh so it's it's a fun hobby and I enjoy it.

SPEAKER_02 35:21

That is wonderful. Uh Tom, we're we're wrapping up, but before we go, I know you had mentioned it before. Tell us how how people can find a game near them, a league near them if they're interested in coming out to watch.

SPEAKER_01 35:33

Yeah, definitely. You can reach out to me and I can help put you in touch with the team. Or if you're interested in starting uh your own team, we just had a team startup in Washington, D.C. And I helped them get started. We'll help you start. But the website is nhbbc.com. You can go there. There's a listing of teams and where they're from. If they're if you can't find a team in your area, I can find you one. No, no problem. There's over 400 teams across the country. Including Hawaii. Including Hawaii. I want a road trip to Hawaii. But uh, I could definitely put you in touch with somebody.

SPEAKER_02 36:11

Yeah, we're in Louisiana. We'll have to look at local teams. I bet there's that.

SPEAKER_01 36:14

Uh Louisiana. I'm trying to think of there. I don't think there are any teams there. I think the closest would be Tennessee. Tennessee, wow. Yeah, there's a league in Tennessee. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:25

Oh, that's a shame. Log road trip, Brooke. And and and this, and this this vintage baseball, it it it is it unique to the 19th century. No one in the early 20th century Deadball does does you know, kind of reenactments or whatever for there was a team that doesn't exist anymore that did the 1922 Giants for a while.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

And you know, they had the old-fashioned gloves and the uniforms and everything, but they don't exist anymore. Yeah. Most yeah, all the teams are 19th century pretty much.

SPEAKER_02 36:55

I think the fun is because there's so many different rules compared to, I guess, in the 20th century, most of those rules are pretty much established.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

That's why that's why we picked 1864 as our year, because there's a lot of different rules that made it interesting.

SPEAKER_02 37:09

Uh Brooke, any final questions before we close?

Brooke 37:12

I appreciate your time. I've I learned a lot today. I'm usually the person who's representing the non-baseball person on the street listening to the podcast. So I had a blast. I appreciate your time. And I look forward to coming out to the game this summer. And then I know you have a festival in August. The first second weekend in August.

SPEAKER_01 37:32

Yes, second weekend of August 8th and 9th is uh Doc Adams Festival. If you don't know who Doc Adams is, please look him up on the uh not the Gunsmoke Doc Adams, uh baseball Doc Adams. He is one of the fathers of baseball that's not in the Hall of Fame. The Hall of Fame is actually the end of May, a Memorial Day weekend, will be displaying his laws of baseball that were recently discovered in 2015, I believe, where he wrote down the rules from 1856 on a piece of paper. It was found in somebody's desk in 2015, from and they were written in 1856. Nine players per inning, nine uh per team, nine nine bases, uh 90 foot bases. Oh my goodness, they're gonna get me on that one. Uh 90 foot bases he came up with, uh, nine innings he came up with. He invented the shortstop position. He was the first one to play shortstop. He's responsible for a lot. And unfortunately, he is not in the hall of fame because it kind of contradicts one of the players that is in the hall of fame that is given that title, Father of Baseball.

SPEAKER_02 38:42

I guess I could talk for hours. We we are a podcast that has on several episodes railed against people not in the hall of fame. So this episode will fit very nicely with that one. Well, at the risk of getting too sentimental, I will close this out with an abbreviated quote from the the film Field of Dreams, talking about baseball as that one constant through all the years. And it's quote, baseball has marked the time. This field, this game is part of our past. It reminds us of all that once was good and what could be again. I don't have the gravitas of James Wall Jones, but go out, find a vintage game, support these players. Brooke and I are gonna try, as I said, to get to a game this summer. You're not gonna regret it. I'm sure it's less expensive. Uh, your view will almost certainly be better. You're gonna have a great time. So thank you, Tom, for joining us today. This has been thank you.

SPEAKER_01 39:35

Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 39:37

And thanks also to Brooke. And uh shout out to all the vintage players out there. We usually end with a shout out uh to someone, but uh thank you guys for uh all you do to keep this history alive. Uh and uh as a vintage player, Tom, uh we usually ask, you know, for someone who can assure me they'll be listening. Can you assure me you'll listen to this episode after we're done?

SPEAKER_01 40:00

Absolutely, and I'm very popular, so I will have a lot of my friends listening and they'll get me on up nine bases. Trust me. Especially Daffy.

SPEAKER_02 40:14

So, well, listeners, we're always happy you're listening. I hope you'll keep listening. Uh, don't forget to subscribe on your podcast platform. Heading back to the locker room. This is Jerry Dines and Bungos and Fasketball.