Own Your Story: Narrative Coaching & Career Reinvention with Jennifer Chenoweth

In this episode Kaley sits down with Jennifer Chenoweth, an executive narrative coach who spent over 20 years inside Fortune 50 companies before launching her own practice. One thing she learned along the way is that the strongest brands aren’t built by polished PR. They’re built by real people telling real stories. Jen gets into why so many high-achieving women struggle to articulate their own value, what it actually means to get clear on your story, and how the way you talk about yourself shapes every opportunity that follows. She also walks through what it looks like to position yourself for what’s next, whether that’s a career pivot, a leadership leap, or simply stepping into a chapter that finally feels like yours.

Jennifer Chenoweth is an executive narrative coach helping C-suite leaders, founders, and senior executives get clear on their story and how they position themselves for what’s next. Before launching her coaching practice, she spent more than 20 years inside Fortune 50 companies, where she learned that the most powerful brands are built by real people telling real stories. Jen is an International Coaching Federation Professional Certified Coach and holds degrees from the University of Wisconsin-Madison and the University of St. Thomas. She lives in Minnesota with her husband and three teenagers.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:13

Hi, and welcome back to Reality Renewed. Today we have the wonderful Jennifer Chennewith. I pronounced that right? Yeah. Good. She is a positioning and narrative strategist at the company she founded called the LinkedIn Gal. She is an ICF professional certified coach with more than 20 years inside Fortune 50 organizations, enrolls spanning sales, brand management, and human resources. She works with people navigating career transitions, visibility, and what comes next.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Helping them clarify how they are positioned and build the evidence to back it up across LinkedIn resumes and interviews. And I had the wonderful pleasure of working with you. And I have to say it was such a transformative experience because I was going, I think I was either recently divorced or going through my divorce. I had moved into this house. And um, I met my ex, you know, when I was 22, and you know, got had my first job out of college and you know, didn't have a ton of work experience. And so it was great working with you and honestly gave me so much confidence because it is intimidating getting back into the career force when you've been out of it for so long. And, you know, looking at your LinkedIn profile again. I mean, looking, I'm like, I don't even have like a headshot, you know, like I would like what I've like encroped like my kids out of the picture or something, but it was just such a great experience, and you just made it so easy and it was so empowering, it really was. And you know, just just going through each thing, like even how to write an email to a potential employer, and uh how to get new headshots, how to redo your LinkedIn. Um, how I mean, I hadn't done a resume in years. So getting that out and uh it was just it was really such a great experience. And I have to say, because of that, I gave me the confidence to be like, okay, if I can do that, I can do this podcast. Yeah. You know, so it was just I I just I have to thank you so much because really it was such a wonderful experience, and I think it it gave me that confidence that I needed to say, like, okay, that was hard, but you can do hard things.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

So you can do hard things. I mean, if that end of podcast. Yes, exactly, exactly. I mean, well, you were a joy to work with, and thank you. I have never met a single person who's been too late to the workforce. Oftentimes I meet people who think or assume or expect that their ship has sailed, or something has happened, or they're gonna have to overcome a lot of obstacles. And I'll say within five minutes of meeting you, I asked you, like, tell me about your day and what do you spend your days doing? And like, you were a very busy person. You had loads of skills that I found very translatable to the workforce. It was that, you know, most people find that they're stuck inside of their own story. And what I do is I sort of externalize it. And so I do a lot of asking questions and listening. Um, and I've yet to find a single person who doesn't have incredible skills, especially moms, have so many incredible skills. And um, it just takes a little asking questions. You know, what are you involved in? What are you spending your days doing? It might not look like traditional paid work, but most of the time I find people are doing some really incredible things and have some amazing skills that employers see value in.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

And so and so I would love to know how you got into career coaching.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

Well, I mean, really, it was the my very first client was my husband, whether he knew it or not. I love that yeah, he was going through a job transition. So, like many people, he had found out his job was going to expire in X number of days. We had three kids, I want to say like under the age of three. So I have a set of twins, and then uh uh 18 months after my twins were born, we had our third child.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

You were not busy at all. No, we were not busy at all.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

Um, and I was working, I had navigated a part-time job when I had my twins. And so I'd wanted, I knew right away that I wanted to spend more time with my kids. Um, and so I had sort of found a spot that I could work part-time in my corporate job. And when my husband found out his job was ending, I was like, oh my gosh, we've got to get you situated. And it wasn't the worst thing. His job was an okay job, but he had a lot of potential to do more. And so one of the things he had a really hard time with was translating what he knew he did into words other people could understand because he had been with the same company for a really long time. And like, you know, the wife of that I am, I was like, give me your laptop, I will I will start writing your LinkedIn in the words that I think use to ex explain what your job is. And three weeks later, he had multiple interviews and job offers. So, I mean, it was a little bit, I can't claim those results for everyone. But you can. Um, but he he was really good at what he did. He had really high quality skills, he was just explaining them in a in not the best way. And so together we kind of figured that out. And he's like, I don't know what you did, but this opened all these doors. And from then on, I really thought I thought about the world through that lens of gosh, he's an amazing employee, he's really loyal, he's been with this organization for a really long time. If he could lose his job, anybody could. Right. And it's really important to kind of think about proactively managing your career or what do you want to do? And it's best to set those ducks before something unexpected happens if you can. Um, and so I just started talking about it from there. And then I worked at a corporate job and training and development, talked to my peers about LinkedIn, and all of a sudden all these coffees popped up on my calendar. Hey, Jen, can we talk about LinkedIn? Can we talk about LinkedIn? Can we talk about LinkedIn? And I was like, oh my gosh, what happened here? And my friend who is a coach is like, I think you just started a business. And my story was, I have no business starting a business. I, my husband just got a new job, I have a part-time job. I have these three kids, ages three and under. My hands are full. Right. And she said, I think the store, I think your resistance to this story is greater than embracing that you've created something different. And the moment I could wrap my my head around that, um, I got a Gmail address and we were off to the races. That's amazing. Yeah. So that was 2014. And fast forward almost 12 years later, here we are, and I do this full time.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

Oh, that's amazing. And how many clients would you say on average that you work with or kind of try and keep I am sure it's hard managing a bunch of different people and personalities.

SPEAKER_01 7:39

I mean, I would say over over the time that I've been doing this is thousands of clients. That's amazing. Um, hundreds on an annual basis. But um, yeah, my practice has shifted over time, just like everyone's life shifts. And so this in this chapter of my practice, I just spend more time with people, which I really do. Like when I was doing the LinkedIn gal, I just focused on LinkedIn. And now that I do this full time, I'm able to focus on resume, sort of that verbal narrative, like the writing piece that we talked about, sort of the greater strategy that goes beyond just the LinkedIn profile. Yeah. And I just I get to work with people who are just simply incredible and help them see their story. And when I can unleash their gifts and talents into the universe, like what a joy.

SPEAKER_00 8:23

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. What would you say kind of are the most common life transitions that you're seeing? I know I know we talked about this a little bit before that about 60% women you see, 40% men. You know, everyone's going through, but what would you kind of see like the most common ones are that you see?

SPEAKER_01 8:43

I mean, it can be life transitions, like I'm getting a divorce or I've lost a spouse, I'm moving to a new city, my kids are old enough that they're in school full time, and I can see that I have time to do something else. There are people who are gainfully employed who are burnt out or just not their skills aren't being used in a way that they want to. Uh, there are people sort of navigating the last chapter of their career and trying to figure out like, how do I really like send this out with a bang and like do what I really want to do? And for some people, that's like a like a 25% shift towards something they may have done like seven or eight years ago, and they're like, I really love that work. Yeah. And I've been promoted beyond that, but I kind of want to go back and do that because I loved that so much. Or it's launching a business and figuring that out. And so we were talking earlier, like everyone's going through transitions. We just can't always see it. And some of them are planned transitions, some of them are unplanned transitions. But all of those things, when people come to me and say, like, I'm going through a transition and it impacts my work, I'm like, game on, this is this is the world I live in.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

So I can tell that I mean, I think from personal experience, you do an absolute amazing job. And I think, you know, there are emotional and confidence challenges that you go through, especially. I mean, it feels very vulnerable when you feel like you don't really know the next chapter and you feel I mean, there's that feeling. Like I remember being like, oh my gosh, I feel so behind because I've been out of the workforce for so long. Uh so how do you sort of navigate clients kind of building that confidence and and even having the you know, ability to come to you and not feel like they're, you know, embarrassed or that they're so behind. Like, are you am I a lost cause?

SPEAKER_01 10:37

Yeah, I mean I've yet to have met a lost cause. I'll say that without absolutely absolute confidence. I have yet to have met a lost cause. One of the things I find so revealing inside of people's stories is that there are gonna be people who come to me and they they say, I don't, I don't know what I want to do. And knowing what you want to do is the work. Yeah, frankly. Right. Um, and part of that starts with just like telling me your story, like what's led you to this moment. And most of the time what I find are particular repeated patterns that I hear inside of people's stories. So it can be launching something or improving something or just taking the bull by the horns and just really owning things. And um, and it's it's funny. I think the universe is always leading us toward what we're meant to do. And when you look back in hindsight, you can see these little glimmers in the trail of oh, I was doing a piece of that, or that job or that role, or that volunteer position was 5% of what I'm doing right now. And all I could see was the 95%. And in sharing stories, I can see the 5% of you've actually been practicing this skill the whole time. You maybe just don't know it yet. And so part of the work is shifting story from what you have been to what are you becoming, and how has the universe sort of opened up possibilities to becoming that? And it's so rare that people are like, Jen, I want to do this. And I'm like, Oh, your entire track record, I've never seen you exhibit any skill related to that. Right. Almost always I'm like, there's the glimmer. Like I can see it along the entire trail. And once I sort of pull that out for people and say, Oh, I heard you say this in this story, I heard you talk about this when it comes to raising your kids, or you're involved with this volunteer organization, we find the story. And I think that gift gives people the confidence of, oh, I couldn't even see that I was doing that. I was so tied up in this other story that I couldn't see that I was building a new one.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

Totally. And I think working with you, you know, I had always been in a different role. I had always kind of done fundraising and nonprofits, which is still a huge passion of mine. Uh and but kind of going through that, it was like maybe that's something I kind of just want to do, like as volunteer work. Like maybe that's just something that I still really am passionate about. But maybe my skills, maybe I'm gonna kind of look in a different direction for for what I want to do. So I thought it it was so interesting going through that where it was kind of like, oh, well, maybe I'm not gonna do just what I always kind of assumed I was gonna do.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

Yeah. Sometimes we have to try on that story for a hot second and see, like, does this fit? Yes. And I I believe in designing safe experiments that allow you to sort of step into a new presence and to feel how it feels in your body. Cause I think like our body holds wisdom that like our brains can't compute. And it's funny, once you try something on, you're like, oh yeah, I do like doing this, but I don't want to do this for my job.

SPEAKER_00 14:03

Yeah. And I just want to do this like I'm passionate about it. I want to do it like volunteer and help out how I can, and you know.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

And there's wisdom in trying that on. Some people would say, like, oh, I made a mistake, I picked the wrong story, and I'm like, there's no mistakes in this. Like sometimes you have to try that story on to come to that conclusion of actually, I just want to do this for fun. Yeah. Um, to me, there's wisdom in that learning.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

Absolutely. So let's talk about kind of reframing that career gap that we talked about. So, like, you know, I love how you're talking about like parenting and volunteering and how those are like life skills that you can kind of translate into transferable skills. Will you kind of tell me like the process, like when you meet with those people? Yeah, how you kind of take their stories and and put them into writing, into something that you know an employer can see.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Yeah. There's two things that I look for is like, what's what are we pointing toward, which is like, what do you ultimately want to do? And then the other piece is like, where are the receipts? Like, where are the receipts that tell me that you can do this thing? Because that's what employers really want to see is this proven data point of you can do this thing. It doesn't matter if that thing was linked to like you getting paid to do it as much as how many times have you done something and it's changed as a result of you being a part of it. Um, so the stories start both ways. Like some people come to me and know precisely what they want to do or have a really good idea of what they want to do, and other people aren't quite sure. Most of the time, I would say it's a 30% shift over maybe something they've done in the past or something that's been like nudging them for a long time. Um, and so we start with some hunches and then we run a few experiments. Like you had mentioned when you said, I think I might want to try fundraising or maybe something with fundraising. And then you tried that on, and you're like, no, not that. Yeah. And I was like, great, like we can cross that off the list and then move on to the next thing. Right. And so I find most people have some wisdom on what do you think you want to do, or in their stories, we can find skills that I can hear results or things that have happened over and over and over again. And then using AI, which is a great tool, to say, okay, Kaylee has incredible skills in leadership, fundraising, branding, you know, we could list all the skills and what kind of jobs are available for people with these skills. And that's where AI is like very powerful and taking a world worth of opportunities, things that you or I couldn't have even thought of, and sort of spitting us out a list of how do these things sound. And then we look at that list and start to say, okay, how does this, how does this sound? Like what's the next step in this research project? And then the entire time I'm working with someone, I'm collecting stories. I'm not always sure what we're going to use the stories for or which pieces of the story are going to be most powerful, but I collect them because I know that the stories are the receipts that need to show up on LinkedIn and resume. And oftentimes those same stories are interview stories as well. Okay. So those are sort of the three story points that I find are really important in careers. The fourth one would be networking, okay. Which is like how do you present yourself when you're talking with someone about a job opportunity or talking with them about their job, um, and helping people articulate, like once we've sort of settled on what are you pointing towards? Where are the receipts? Then putting it together in a really beautiful package that you feel like you can pick up, even if you haven't done it for two weeks, and say, okay, here's my packet that Jen and I put together. Oh yeah, here's my superpower. Oh yeah, here's what I'm really good at. Oh yeah, here are my skills. Oh, these are three stories. And it's very rare that like we are creating these from scratch. These are often stories that you've told many, many, many times, just with a different lens on them. Yeah. And so that's that's the magic in my in what I would call like what I'm doing is listening always. Yes. Sort of recording, taking them in, and then saying, what are we pointing towards and how do we show proof points? Because I want someone to pick up your resume or look at your LinkedIn and feel like they want to have a conversation with you. That's the all that to me, that's the ultimate goal. It's like your story does not live on your resume. Yeah, yes, your receipts live on your resume, but your story lives through your persona, through how you show up in conversations. And your resume is sort of, for some people, it's a security blanket of like, oh, it's this confidence booster of here are all these moments that are written down and they're real. Um, but also it's modern-day job seeking is still very much a resume-focused entity. Absolutely. Um, and so it's something that's necessary. And and then LinkedIn is the bait that's working for you 24-7. Like that's how I think of LinkedIn is like it is out there all the time creating room for your story, and your resume is what you use to apply for a job.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

I love that.

SPEAKER_01 19:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

Well, and let's I would love to talk about that. So building, you know, building a modern resume. Yeah, let's do that. As we call it. Yeah, yeah. Because I remember when I broke up my resume from oh my gosh, because I think I I think I retired when Ruby was born.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

And so that was, I think I was like 27.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

I love that you say you retired. Because you weren't retired.

SPEAKER_00 19:47

I retired from the workforce when I was 27. Went into being a full-time mom, which let me tell you, those days were, those days are long and yeah, and uh they don't end.

unknown 20:01

Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:01

It's not like a nine to five. No. Uh but so I, you know, when I pulled, and you're like, Do you have a resume? And I pulled out my resume, and it was like, I was like, oh my gosh, I'm kind of embarrassed to show this to Jen because it's like it looked so juvenile. It was a different version of self.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

It's like trying to put on a pair of jeans that you wore in the 1990s. Like exactly. Even if they fit, they don't fit right. Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 20:28

Exactly. So I mean, it was so helpful, but I would love for you to kind of talk about how you, you know, how do you go about building a modern resume?

SPEAKER_01 20:38

Yeah. There's three things that that I look for on a good resume, which is format. Format's important to a certain extent because most people are applying for jobs at some point online. And there are formats that tend to work really, really well in that application, and then there are some formats that don't work quite as well. Um, two-column resumes don't work quite as well. Some people want to put a photo on their resume. That you can do that. It's better when you're handing it to a person versus like applying for online. Um, there's all sorts of, and there's really cool resume formats on Etsy. I see them all the time. They're lovely, they're stunning. I always think about like what is this process going to look like for this person and what's the format that's going to matter. So if you're gonna hand your resume to someone, we have a lot more options versus if you're gonna apply for jobs online. Applying for jobs online is a single, a single column Word document typically. It looks somewhat like resumes have for a million years. Um, there's fonts that tend to be most readable. There's about 10 of them that tend to be really readable, and there's section headers that make this easy to consume. And what you have to remember is your resume is for the reader, meaning we want to show them a document that they're very used to reading, that is visually beautiful, but that doesn't show them, introduce a whole new format. That they're like, what is what is this document? Like, this doesn't look like anything I've ever seen because we want to save them time. And in today's job market, time is everything. There are typically more people applying for jobs than there are jobs available. And all of the jobs that people are applying for are going to be competitive. And so we want to make it easy for the reader to see and understand. We want to make your signature strength stand out. And so the second piece is content.

SPEAKER_02 22:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

The mistake most people make in content is that they recite everything they've done, like a job posting, responsible for, or um sort of like these blanket statements of like, what did you do without any results or explaining how you did it. And I think a great resume bullet includes three things. What did you do? How did you do it? And what did you deliver? Can go in different orders. But if you can represent at least two of those three things and ultimately three things in a resume bullet, that makes it a really complete story. And and that's what reads like receipts actually on a resume. And so those are the data points I try to build to in our conversations. That's why I'm like recording stories. Yeah. Because I'm like, at some point I've got to make this a bullet. And that's that's what I do is I help people write write the resume bullets as well. And then the third thing is just grammar, like just good solid grammar. Um, so no spelling errors, punk, consistent punctuation, all of those things. And so that's what I look for. Which probably it sounds so easy, but I'm sure it sounds so easy, and there's so much, like there's so much automated tool, like so many automated tools that allow grammar and spelling to be easy, but there's also so much that can get missed as well. And so that's just the human element of things. And then the the fourth thing is like all content should be pointed toward the job that you want. So um, in that, in that content phase, it's not just telling people everything you've done, it's telling people what you've done that points toward what you want. And that means omitting parts of your story, which can feel really uncomfortable sometimes, is like, how does that connect to what you want? Um, and sometimes people are like, I don't know. And I'm like, Yeah, we don't want the reader to have to make that conclusion either. We want to make it really clean for them to experience your background in a way that says, Oh wow, Kaylee did this and this and this, and that's exactly what I need someone to do. And I can see that she's got proven experience. And the next step would be to bring you in and have a conversation with you. And so those are that's like my process in writing a resume. It differs based on the industry, based on the level. Um, but generally speaking, that's my area of expertise. And I find, I mean, people are like, Can you teach me this? And I'm like, absolutely, but you probably won't need like once you get a job, you probably won't need to have this skill for another couple of years. And chances are the whole game could change by then, anyways. And so my job is to stay current with best practices so that when you need something, you can come to me and feel like you have someone who understands your background and can help you translate your experience to the next thing.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

That's amazing. Yeah. I love that. So, would you say for people, if you're gonna like do you have them sort of keep with one standard resume?

SPEAKER_01 25:26

I do.

SPEAKER_00 25:27

And then maybe like their cover letter or their email is a little bit have that more be directed to the specific job.

SPEAKER_01 25:36

Yeah, I mean, ultimately, if we can land on like a really common focal point of what are we positioning for, I'd love to get to one version of your resume. Yeah, most people are not very good at um storing files and like sharing files appropriately. Can we just say that? Oh my god, myself included, like this whole idea of content management and like sending the right version of something feels really overwhelming to me.

SPEAKER_00 26:01

Um it's I can't even tell you. I mean, Blake, our sweet um kind editor, um we've had lots of you know, trying to share and store the videos, even like for this podcast. I mean, it can get so cumbersome. So I think, yeah, I mean, and think about having multiple resumes. I mean, I could see it being a situation where you think you're sending one and it's not the one you want to be sending, and then you're then you look like an idiot because you're trying to be like, oh wait, I need to try and get that back.

SPEAKER_01 26:38

And there's no recall function on a resume. And so I and sometimes people have multiple versions and then if someone calls them and they're like, which version did you see? And I'm like, oh my, I just don't have the brain capacity for that. Um, so I try to get people settled on one version whenever possible. Yeah. That you could maybe update a little bit every single time you applied for something, but generally speaking, like 85% of the content is intact and therefore like your story stays intact. Okay. The only things I think people should be really adjusting would be if you see a job and it pulls on a story that we've never talked about, that you're like, oh my gosh, I do have that experience. Jen and I never talked about that. And so then you craft a bullet point to add to one of your experiences to include that because it's important for that job posting. But I don't know that like running resumes through AI and having it like transfer your experience to like different words is tremendously helpful. To me, it's just it's gonna take the same content and just deliver it very slightly differently. And I don't necessarily mean it's better, it's just different. Um, and I think most people who see a lot of resumes can sniff out an AI resume pretty quick.

SPEAKER_02 27:51

Oh, I believe.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

Because you can imagine if if I'm creating a resume that says make this sound more marketing focused, every a hundred other people are doing the exact same thing. And so all of a sudden, that's a great point. Someone reading this on the back end is seeing a hundred resumes that look nearly identical. And so That's a great point. This is a human like res reading resumes is still a pretty human-based business. And so, and if we can tell people stories, um, like the story I told about my husband job seeking, people remember stories. And so to me, resumes are little snippets of story to make you memorable and credible. And and those are the resumes I really enjoy building.

SPEAKER_00 28:38

Uh, and then let's talk more about LinkedIn because LinkedIn, I mean, you're the LinkedIn gal. LinkedIn is kind of how you got started. I I'm still learning LinkedIn. I think it's a it's kind of fun to stock people.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

Oh, who yeah, of course, of course.

SPEAKER_00 28:54

Of course. Put in like old boyfriends. What are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 28:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

Just kidding, I've never done that.

SPEAKER_01 29:00

No one has. Whenever someone asks me, like, can I put my profile in private mode? I'm like, who do you want to go look at? Because this is a story I want to hear. Who do we want to look at? Oh, I know, because I found that out that they can see. If you're not in private mode, they there's a chance that they can see. Yes. Um, but you can go into private mode and look at anyone's profile for the most part. That's a good little tidbit. Good little nugget. Yeah. Okay. Private mode. Good little nugget. And you can go back to or you can have a friend pull up a profile too and look at it on their phone. That happens regularly too. But LinkedIn is to me like 10,000 feet above your resume. So it's if if I use a phishing analogy, um, it's sort of the line that you have in the water all the time. It helps you with visibility, it helps you with credibility, it helps you with SEO, it helps you with findability. If someone is meeting you for the very first time, chances are, this day and age, they're Googling you or Facebooking you or something before they've met you. I think for really good reasons. One, to find some common denominators, or two, to inform like what's the conversation that I want to have with this person. And so LinkedIn is sort of the professional side of it. It's the credibility marker, the findability. Um, it and it sort of establishes a starting point for a conversation. So, my fundamental belief is that LinkedIn doesn't need to be everything that's in your resume. I think LinkedIn needs to be small blurbs that explain a little bit about your background so that someone can have a conversation with you, less about like LinkedIn is being used to hire you. I think LinkedIn is being used to find you and to validate you and to cross-check is what you're saying on your resume the same thing you're saying on your LinkedIn. Because LinkedIn is also a public forum. And so to me, it's one thing to say something on a resume, but it's a whole other thing to say it on LinkedIn because everybody can see it. And so I find LinkedIn to be pretty truthful, truthful from that perspective. Um, and you don't have to be a Kardashian on LinkedIn. I have like the number one conversation I have with people when it comes to LinkedIn is like, do I have to post every single day? And I'm like, I I don't know who's posting every single day. Like, if they are, they're probably not working.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

Like, I I don't think I've ever posted on LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_01 31:28

Most people don't. Um, I mean, it's possible to post on LinkedIn, and I think it's helpful to post on LinkedIn because it's just another reminder of everyone's really caught up in their own story. And LinkedIn is just another place for people to rem remember oh, you have a story that you're living, like to see someone outside of themselves, or if you're if you're creating a new story, it can help start to close that gap between who you've been and who you are becoming in a way that brings people sort of along for that ride. Okay. Um, but I think for the most part, it's val validation, credibility, all of those things.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

So then do you work with people to kind of take the important parts of their resume to sort of put it?

SPEAKER_01 32:16

Because I I remember you also will completely, I remember you completely redid my I think you handed me the keys to the car and said, do it. And I said, Great. Yeah, yeah. So I work with people in multiple ways. My services are always based on the person and how do you want to work together? And some people are like, you like, let me throw you the keys to the car and like you drive, and I'm like, great, here's where we're going, here's what I'm gonna talk about. Are you comfortable with this? And so I follow resume mostly with LinkedIn because resume is all the details. LinkedIn is a little bit higher level, and so once we've got the resume right, LinkedIn becomes pretty easy. There's some feature functionality on LinkedIn that looks different than a resume. And one of the things I love about LinkedIn is you can get written recommendations, you can get endorsements. And so for me, that's that social proof of Kaylee is who she says she is, because this person, this real person wrote her a recommendation on LinkedIn, or this real person endorsed her for these skills on LinkedIn. And so it's those proof points that make sort of the the receipts indestructible, so to speak. Okay. Of like other people say so too.

SPEAKER_00 33:19

Very cool. Yeah. So I would love to hear what the most common requests you get uh from people starting the job search.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

Yeah. People come, I mean, oftentimes it's people come to me for help with their resume or help with their LinkedIn. And that's sort of the symptom that people are coming with. And the reality is they want help with their story. And so what I find in our conversations as we get to how do you talk about yourself? What's the story you believe to be true? And we start building from there. But really, it's the mindset that we start with, which is there's a story you're living, but you've outgrown that. But let's start to establish a new story. And your verbal narrative is the hardest narrative to shift. And that's the one I like to start with. And so a lot of the work that I do with people is just asking you questions like tell me about your story, or what did you take away from that? Like asking big questions and then listening to your answers and coaching you in the moment to say, ooh, play this up a little bit more. What does it sound like when you hear me say this? And most people are like, Oh my gosh, that sounds amazing, Jen. And I've just repeated what you just said. But most times people need to hear their story told a little bit differently by someone else to start believing it. And to me, that's the start of this work is the mindset shift. But other things people come to me for is help with interviewing that verbal side of telling your story or networking, which is this morphous concept. I think people believe networking to be walking into a room of a whole bunch of people and introducing yourself in a really captivating, cool way, which sounds horrible to me. Like I think there's a version of networking that absolutely looks like that. I think of networking more generally as a conversation you have with people about work you want to do or work they're already doing or have experience doing. And you're just mindful that that conversation is mostly about career. And I think most networking happens with people you know really well, you kind of know, or someone else knows that's my assistant. Yeah, wonderful. Or someone, someone, uh, someone, somebody you already know introduces you to. So for example, if someone's like, I mean, a personal story for me is when I got um I my first job out of college was working for a company. I was living in Minnesota, working for a company that was headquartered in another state. And so part of my job was sort of navigating back and forth between Minneapolis and this other state. And during that time I met my husband, and traveling to other states was just no longer that appealing to me. I just wanted to be here. And I was in school going to uh at St. Thomas for my MBA and meeting a lot of people who worked for local companies. And I was starting to try their stories on. I was like, oh, you work at General Mills, you work at Target, you work at Medtronic, you work at all of these amazing places that are here, which for me equaled, I don't have to travel so much anymore. Um, I want that too. And so through how I got my foot in the door at Target, which is where I spent uh 17 years of my career. Um, it's actually where I was working when I started the LinkedIn gal, was through telling people I want to work at Target and who do you know that works at Target and I want to talk to them because I wasn't a hundred percent sure how to take my past experience and package it in a way that Target would see value in it. At that time, what I learned in those networking conversations was Target typically hired from undergraduate or MBA school. I had my undergraduate, but I had some career experience and I was in school for my MBA. So I didn't really fit the boxes that they were looking for. What I ended up learning in one networking conversation is Target had a gap in its um skills matrix, which was people who knew how to negotiate. And my first part of my career was spent selling new car inventory to car dealers.

SPEAKER_00 37:39

No way.

SPEAKER_01 37:40

Yeah, have we never talked about that?

SPEAKER_00 37:42

No, that's so cool.

SPEAKER_01 37:43

Yeah, yes. That was like my first five-year job out of college, was focused primarily with car dealers and running their businesses effectively. And one of my major roles was I'd get this allocation of inventory every month. And it was like, go out and sell your inventory and like don't come home until you've got it sold. And so you're out talking to car dealers who are like my parents' age or older, who had all of this career experience. And here I am, like 23, trying to tell them that they need to buy more cars from me than what they already owned and focusing on their businesses. And so it was a really hard job. I learned a lot about myself. Um, and one of the skills that I possessed was negotiation, which is like the art of making a deal that works well for both people. At the time, Target was building up that capability and they were looking for people with this skill. And I was able, through my insurance agent, so the person who sold us like car, home insurance, yes, knew someone who worked at Target on that team who was a really good networker. I talked with him, told him about my background, and he's like, You've got to, you've got to be on our team. And so he walked me. I remember I went downtown to Target. I showed up a week early for our networking meeting. And like it still makes me embarrassed to even say this, but I I had the I was so excited because one, he scheduled an on-site meeting and I had never been downtown in Target's headquarters. I mean, I grew up in a small town in Wisconsin, so going downtown to Minneapolis, like I only went out there to like go out, you know, never to like work. Like people who worked in downtown were like a whole other echelon. And again, you can hear the stories in that, right? Like I have the story made up. And so I went and I checked in at the front desk and the woman's like, Who are you here to meet? And I shared the name, and she's like, Okay, let me look up his calendar. And she looked up his calendar and she's like, So I'm seeing you a week from today on his calendar. And I was like, Yes, that makes perfect sense that I'm here one week early. And so I was like, Let's just keep this between the two of us and I'll see you next week, Monday. And she just laughed. And home I went and I walked in and my husband's like, You're back early. And I was like, Yeah, showed up a week early. Whoopsie. Uh so I never told, I don't think I've ever told him that I showed up a week early. I was so excited for that conversation. So, dress rehearsal, check, new where to park, etc., showed up a week later. And then he walked me around the floor. And this is where networking is so powerful. It's like, I didn't even know Target had this capability. I didn't even understand what their team did. I didn't even fully understand that I had this capability. But it was through sharing my story with him that he actually saw in me, like, wow, you have this interesting capability of negotiating with car dealers. That sounds really advantageous for Target that you kind of know how this works already. And um, and we're looking for this talent right now, which wasn't even really posted on their website at all. And so he literally walked me into the door of the person who is responsible for hiring and he was like, Can you send me your resume? And it was like just a couple weeks later, and I was in there for an interview and got hired.

SPEAKER_00 41:05

So amazing.

SPEAKER_01 41:06

So that's how that's the power of networking. The world is still a who you know can become your advocate type of situation. And, you know, thank goodness he was forgiving of me because I'm sure I told a, you know, terrible story about who I was. But luckily I impressed him enough to like have him make some introductions for me. And I find the world to be very kind to people that you can make a lot of mistakes in your story and the world still looks favorably upon you. Um but yeah, that was like the start of an incredible career. And trust me, the story I told myself when I started at Target was oh my gosh, these people are so smart, they are so capable. Every meeting I went to, I was like, this is the real deal. Like these people are really smart. They have just not figured out yet that I do not belong here. Like I fully believed that they were that they had some inside lane that I didn't. And at some point, I sat myself down for like a real big girl conversation and just said, like, they wouldn't have hired you if they didn't believe you belonged here. And so you need to wrap your mind around the fact that you belong here. And that sort of excelled my career. Um I had a bunch of jobs at Target. I the it was during a time where Target gave you sort of a new job every 18 months. Um and then I got pregnant with twins and said, I what I really want to do is work part-time. What a weird thing to ask someone who's like, what would you like to do next? And I was like, Have I got a curveball for you? Yeah. Um and they were like, Good luck, good luck with that. I was not given any help to find a part-time job at Target. Um, it was on me to figure that out and make the case that part-time work not only was good for me, that was the story that I needed to tell myself, but that that part-time work for me was really good for Target. And if you remember, your story is always about the listener. It is always about the person you are trying to influence toward a decision. And so instead of saying, I really want to work part-time and I want to be at home with my kids, and this is gonna be really good for me personally. The story that I needed to tell was, hey, I found this other person who also wants to work part-time. I did. She was also pregnant with twins, like Kismet. Not kidding. Our twins were born six weeks apart from one another. And her and I did um together, we did this whole skill-based inventory. And it turned out her skills were super complementary of mine, but they were different. And so the pitch that we made for ourselves as a job share was you can't find a human being with all of these skills. Um, actually, like we're sort of a superhuman being, and it's incumbent upon us to use these skills to drive your initiatives, but to have both of our minds in a different way on your problems will be really good for you and we'll be able to accomplish probably more than the last person who sat in this seat just as a single full-time person could. And they believed us.

SPEAKER_00 44:13

That's great. I'm sure you'd rocked it. That makes no I mean I'm listening. I'm like, I'd hire you guys. It sounds great. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:19

I mean we we and we did a lot of incredible work together and it was and I job shared at Target for 12 years. Wow. It's so, but we had to we had to constantly make that argument. And it was different partners, but how we how us working together was better for the company and better for the business and better for results. Now it was also better for us in our personal lives too, but that's not the argument that companies want to hear. And so I think so many times people come to me and they say Jen, guess what I want? I want more money or I want to make money or what I really want is flexibility. And the person listening to your story doesn't want to hear that. They want to hear what are your capabilities that you're you're better at than most people. I don't care if you're the best at anything. I mean very rarely would it even be provable that anyone's the best of something. Imagine the research we'd have to do to prove that I'm the best resume writer ever. Like no, I'm better at it than most people, right? And most of us have skills that we are better at than most people. Those are the things that someone wants to hear when you're networking or interviewing or on your resume because they're betting on the fact that your skills will help them solve their problems that they're experiencing and that they're going to pay you something that's equivalent to or slightly less than the value that you're going to offer their organization. Right? That's sort of the math behind jobs like how that works, right? Is a company's going to hire you and pay you something less than the value they believe you're going to generate in a very frank way of looking at it. And the faster you can wrap yourself around like that's the story someone needs to hear, the quicker you'll find success in networking and interviewing, which is sure we all want flexibility and we all want to get paid money for the jobs that we do, that only comes after someone sees the value that you offer all of that comes later. And so I try to restack the story towards like what does that other person need to hear to take you seriously as a credible candidate for this. And then all that other stuff you can figure out later.

SPEAKER_00 46:34

And so that kind of goes into like the inner you know prepping for an interview.

SPEAKER_01 46:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:39

What are sort of the main you know like the top three things that you tell people when prepping for an interview?

SPEAKER_01 46:45

Star stories which star stands for situation, task, action result. It is not my framework. It's a framework that's existed for a long time. People have probably heard this called something else at other organizations. But it's sort of the situation sets the stage for the example that you're going to talk about. The task is like what were you specifically assigned to do or self-assigning yourself to do. Action is what did you actually do? And result is what changed as a result of all the things you did. And if people can think about five or six signature stories in that framework, I would say that you're really well prepared for an interview. The other question people need to think about is tell me about yourself. That's the hardest question for most people. Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_00 47:34

It really is. I I don't even yeah yeah I don't even know what I would say I mean what do you start with right?

SPEAKER_01 47:39

Like I'm the oldest of three girls like I had a dog growing up you know like where do you st where do you start that story? Like most people when asked that question don't know where to start. And part of the work that I do with people is really scripting that out so that you have an answer that sounds like here are my signature skills and capabilities and here's why why we're here to have a conversation today. And they'll trust that the other person will drill into additional detail as needed. That's part of being in the interview. But that's that's a really hard question and most people flub that the first few times and so what it's like are they asking personally?

SPEAKER_00 48:21

Are they asking professionally? Like it's so hard to know.

SPEAKER_01 48:25

So the air always air on the side of professional that would be my advice air on the side of prof prof professional and if they want to know more about you personally trust that they will ask. Okay. But the personal side isn't always needed to to understand if you're qualified for a job. And so I'd also say like sometimes don't take the bait on the personal side because it doesn't it doesn't matter. It's not an expression of your capabilities. It's just someone's curiosity. And so depending on the person sometimes we deflect that question and don't answer it because it doesn't matter, right? It doesn't matter that I have three kids it doesn't matter that my husband works from home. It doesn't matter like none of that matters in my capability to do this job. That's just someone being really curious. And you can decide in the situation what feels right but sometimes sharing information like that can can kind of be like something someone doesn't want to hear. Like we don't know enough about the other person to know what feels comfortable sharing professionally. And so I would say I always err on the side of less personal disclosure, more professional disclosure and keep the conversation super professional. It also reads very executive I'll also say that where you keep it really professional people sort of are like oh oh you know like Kaylee is really focused.

SPEAKER_00 49:45

I'm super I'm so professional.

SPEAKER_01 49:47

So that's a good tactic. And then to walk into an interview with some questions that you want to have answered too like it's not just about answering questions. It's also about asking questions feeling like you're having a conversation with someone. Absolutely yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:03

So what would be kind of like your final advice for our listeners who are kind of trying to go back into the workforce.

SPEAKER_01 50:12

Yeah yeah I would say like imagine your best case scenario and start believing it like one believe in it one ounce more every single day than you did yesterday. That's the mindset shift of believing that you can and that you are capable and deserving of being seen and rewarded and all of those things. That's that's step one of all of that. And two like let go of the idea that of how much time has passed like it doesn't matter. I think there's all kinds of stats on like Oprah started at whatever age and like Martha Stewart and like all these incredible women and like what age they actually like got their big thing. And it's always like way later than you think. And so like let go of the idea of what time has passed like remembering that is just a it's just a data point but you can't change it. And so what you can change is what you do today and tomorrow and the next day and so focus on those like forward progress moments. And you don't have to do this alone. You can do this alone. It's totally possible to it's just probably easier faster and a lot more fun if you have help. And so look for those people that that can help you in this journey and asking for help is a real like people are normally really happy to help you if you ask for help. And so um that's a really brave thing to do but it can get you there so much faster than if you go it alone. So how's that sound?

SPEAKER_00 51:49

That sounds great. Well I think that's a great closing because would love for you to now tell like because your story is so impactful and I know people are going to be listening to this and say oh my gosh how do I find Jen? How do I get in contact with you?

SPEAKER_01 52:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:07

What would you say is the best way uh to get in contact with you.

SPEAKER_01 52:10

Yeah my website www dothelinkedingal.com would be the best way. Yeah. And uh there's a contact me section but you can also book a free discovery call. So I do a free just free no obligation discovery call before I take on any single client. One to make sure like we're the right fit for each other and if I'm not the right fit I have loads of other people that I know who might be an even better fit. So I like to get people to the to the right folks that can be super helpful. And two just to get clear on like how what does this process look like every situation is unique. Some things can move faster than others but to have really clear a really clear goal in mind.

SPEAKER_00 52:49

So well I love that well thank you again for coming thanks for having me was amazing and I learned even more from it. I truly did and and I've worked with you I mean we had we worked together for a long time yeah months so and so even I'm finding out more and I know uh this advice that that you're giving is gonna be extremely helpful for our listeners and and I'm sure we'll have a lot of reality renewed people coming in and seeing you. Happy to have them yes yes thank you so much I really appreciate you thank you