Divorced Before 40: The Scarlet Letter No One Talks About with Emily McNamara

In this episode Kaley sits down with her longtime friend Emily McNamara, an Edina mom of twins who got divorced at 34 in a community where that felt anything but normal. Emily opens up about the shame of early divorce, what healing actually looked like, and how she stopped searching and found love anyway. This one’s for anyone who’s ever felt like they were carrying a scarlet letter they didn’t deserve.

Emily McNamara is an Edina, Minnesota mom of twins and wife to her husband Myles. She serves as president of the Richard F. McNamara Family Foundation, advocating for women’s athletics, girls’ empowerment, and equity-focused initiatives. A former caregiver for her father through a decade-long battle with Alzheimer’s, Emily’s story is one of resilience, purpose, and choosing herself at every chapter.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:13

Hi, and welcome back to Reality Renewed. Today we have Emily McNamara on, who I'm so excited to have on. So thank you so much for taking the time today. And I just love your story. We had well, we've I've known you for years, and then we had time recently to catch up, and it was just so great to reconnect. And I think you just have an amazing story that our viewers will love to hear about. So thank you. It's nice to be here. Well, turn it over to you. Do you want to just tell us a little bit about yourself? For those who don't know, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_04 0:47

Sure. Yes. Um, I am a mother of 18-year-old boy girl twins. Amazing. Yep. I live here in Edina. I was born and raised here and still live here. Um yes, and so I'm 48 and I was married and divorced.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

And how at about how long ago was that?

SPEAKER_04 1:10

Let's see. Um I was 34 when I got divorced. Um, and I'd been married five years. Okay. So um a little on the early side to be divorced, especially this community. And it was um an interesting path, interesting journey, but leads you to where you are now.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

And absolutely. Well, and I and I think it was interesting you and I both had this in common where it's like you get divorced at a younger age, right? And it's almost like taboo.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

And you feel like you have this like scarlet letter that, like, oh, you're divorced before 40. And for sure. At the end of the day, what I have found is like better to do it earlier than later in life.

SPEAKER_04 2:03

Absolutely. Wasting time. Um, yeah, I think there was shame. You know, there's some shame with it. And being that young, you're, you know, people are still starting to have kids. And you people have been getting married in their early 30s, and they're everything's about couples, and now you're, you know, breaking the mold and now you're divorced. And it was a really it was it was a hard time, it was interesting. Um, but yeah, I wouldn't, I would not waste, you know, a decade staying somewhere where you're not happy. So and how old were your kids when?

SPEAKER_00 2:40

They were five. Okay. Five years ago. Yeah, which it's so interesting after and especially doing this podcast, that they're saying the younger the kids are, it's actually better for them longer term than waiting and doing it like when they're in high school or when they're in college. And so I just commend you for doing it early. And you know, for it's not easy.

SPEAKER_04 3:06

No, no, it wasn't. It was one of those things that the idea of being divorced was even it was awful when it ran through my head, like this isn't working. What am I gonna do? And all those fears, I'm gonna be alone, I'm gonna be here by myself raising these two kids. Who wants to date a woman with two little kids? Where am I gonna live? What you know, all of these things flood your head, and you're that age, and it's like, okay, I remember thinking, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna stay here in this marriage every day until I can't do it anymore. Because when I when I put that concept out there, like, I need to get divorced, I'm gonna be divorced. I can't, when you put it out through it it made me feel anxious and nervous, like I have to do this thing that's looming out there instead of just like, okay, today I'm here. I'm gonna do this today, every day. And then one day I did wake up and I'm like, I'm done, like I'm ready. But I didn't put that pressure on myself. But you know, I made moves in my head, knowing what was going to be happening, and but I tried not to be too hard on myself, but it was, you know, like I said, there was tons of sadness and shame that something didn't work that you really wanted to work.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

Absolutely, you don't go into a marriage thinking you're gonna get divorced.

SPEAKER_04 4:28

Right. No, absolutely not. It was the you know, the the big wedding and the fairy tale, and when you watch it fall apart in front of you, it's um it's terribly painful. And for me, my father passed away, I moved and got divorced within a year and a half. So three major things happen in that time frame. But when my father died, it was just I think that was another catalyst, it just woke me up. Like life is so short, and you also know who is there for you in these horrible times. Oh my gosh, stressful times. Um people stick, some people stay, and they're there, other people, you know, they don't. And I just felt so alone, even though I was married, and I was like, this is not this is the worst feeling, you know, dealing with this, and I'm all by myself. Why am I even married then?

SPEAKER_00 5:23

Yes, you know, absolutely. So that kind of was what really well good for you for doing it because I think it's so hard to take that initial step. Yeah, uh, and you do have all of those feelings around it, and I remember you know the the shame, and then also like it was weird. It was like the grief over it's like the grief of that loss of that divorce, you know, and that person is still alive, right? But you're no longer together, so it's like you're the grief of like losing that person in your life too, yeah. But also knowing like it's the best thing for you and for your kids going forward.

SPEAKER_04 6:06

Yeah. I mean it's it is a death, it's the death of a dream, um, it's the death of life as you know it, you know, with with a wedding and the marriage, all of that you have, it's really built on all these things you're gonna do. We're gonna get married, then we're gonna buy a house, and then we're gonna have kids, and we're gonna take them here. You have this big thing planned out, at least I did. Yes, absolutely. When you realize um those plans are not gonna work, it's it's really hard. But I think divorce is getting easier and more acceptable, even you know, it has been for a while, but it's it's still there is still like in the community around your friends and your peers, you worry about what they're gonna think and how they're gonna judge you. Um, but I think at the end of the day, there's only one person that's looking out for you, and it's you. It's your thousand percent. It's you know, you live it, they don't go home to your environment, they don't know what it's like. So you just have to really be your own advocate, and it's hard, it's super scary. But I think when you know in your gut and you you just you have to just stick with that feeling, as hard it is, and scary, and just you know, move forward one day at a time.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

That that's just what my my plan was, and that is like such great advice because I think when I was first going through it, I was like, I didn't want to like leave my house, I didn't want to run into someone at the grocery store and for them to be like, Oh, how how are you doing, or what's new? And I mean you have to come up with some like long monologue about it. It was like I I I cared almost too much, you know, about what people were thinking. And then, you know, you have I would say like 90% of people were amazing, were amazing, and then you had that 10% that were just like little assholes, yeah. You know what I mean? Oh, for sure, and you're just like, I'm like, why do you care what's going on, like in my life? Like, is your life that boring or whatever the reason is? And I so I I remember getting like so upset about at the beginning, and now to the point where I'm like, you know, three years out from being separated and divorced, I'm like, I don't give a shit what anyone thinks of me. Yes, like to your point, you have no idea what I do on my daily basis or what I have going on in my life. I'm not judging you. Yeah, don't judge me. And I think to your point, once you can just get over that the noise, it's like okay.

SPEAKER_04 8:41

Yeah. And what other people think of you is none of your business. Exactly. It's like I love that one. You know, I like that. My therapist has had to drive that into me. And the other thing was they're really not thinking as much about you as you think they are. You know, and it was it kind of made me think like, oh god, now I said I look pretty arrogant. Oh, they're sitting around talking about me, thinking about me all day. No, it's um it's yesterday's news, too, you know, which there's a new piece of gossip, and yeah, I mean, you just gotta just drive right through that and not listen to it. Because, you know, it'll they'll be in the hot seat.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

Oh, 1000%.

SPEAKER_04 9:16

One way or the other, everyone goes through their shit. They go through their stuff, and maybe mine is this and yours is that.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

But I mean, we're all just doing the best we can for sure, and also as women, it's like let's like be nice to each other and like build each other up, and like we're all moms, we're all trying to do the best we can. Like, let's just be kind to one another. Like, we have enough shit going on in the world, like we don't need to be like adversarial to one another.

SPEAKER_04 9:41

No one's perfect, no one's perfect, and the judgment is um it it's tough, yeah. You know, everyone has chapters, they don't read aloud. Exactly. Another one I think at you. I'm looking at the quotes. We're gonna we need like these are a lot of what's gonna be. This is from my my the most amazing uh therapist life coach, but you know, it was like because you you know, this is not a great chapter in my life, but um it's something that you know I'm not gonna walk around feeling shame about because I made a choice for myself, absolutely not, and for my kids.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

Absolutely. So, what was your life like kind of right after the divorce was finalized?

SPEAKER_04 10:22

I think that was very tough. Like I said, I had the double whammy of losing my dad, who I was um uh very close to. And it was one of those those things like when the divorce decree, like, okay, the kids are gonna go with you one of these days. When that first happened, I mean, I remember when they left the house that first time and he took him. I just fell to my knees. Just fell to my knees and screamed in my back hall watching these little kids get in that car. And for the first, I don't know how many months, it you know, you I think you spend your time going, what is he doing with them? Are they going to the zoo without me? Did he see his first, you know, zebra without me? Did he do you're thinking of all the things they're doing and all the things you're not getting to do, and it can really eat you up. And it took a while, but I I found a way to switch that mindset, which I wish I could have gotten to a little sooner. But is now that they're gone for this amount of time, now what can I do with my time, with my day?

SPEAKER_00 11:31

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 11:32

And it's it is it's important because all of a sudden I was like, oh, I can get all this stuff done, I can sleep without you know kids annoying me. I can um I can go on a date. Yes, I can do things, but you have to really look at the other side of the coin. Because if you focus only on what you're missing, it's it can make your days hard. But you know, that's how I kind of got through it, but yeah, you just have to go, it's just time and you have to go through it.

SPEAKER_00 12:02

I I don't, you know, I think that is I remember that first night too, and it was so awful. And I just remember being like, I just I miss them, and you know, and you're just but then if you get through that, then you're like, Okay, I'm gonna sit, I'm gonna have a glass of wine, I'm gonna watch a really bad show on Netflix, I'm gonna order really shitty Chinese food. Yeah, yeah, and you're okay, and I'm just gonna sit in my comfies and just yeah, you'll be okay.

SPEAKER_04 12:35

Yeah, every day passes, and then it's like, and then you realize really, too, for me, it was about the kids. Like, I'm not gonna be jealous that I didn't see them, you know, do this. This is their life, they got to do it, be happy for them, and it's in really take out that he got to do that with him. He don't do that, you know, don't go there. It's very hard, it's very easy to want to do that. Just stay, stay here.

SPEAKER_00 13:02

Um I love that because you're right, the kids got to experience it. Yeah, it's not about mom and dad and who got who it's right, the kids got to experience it, and that's the most important part. For sure. So would love to talk to you about you know, kind of adjusting to the new normal, which as we talked about, can be very, very hard. And I think in our head as women, especially moms, and then going to be, you know, a single mom, we have so many like timelines and expectations for ourselves. And you know, I remember with me, I'm like, I I just I moved into this new house, right? And I wanted everything to just like be perfect because the kids, you know, he was staying in the house that we shared together, and so I wanted everything here to be perfect, and I remember just having like the highest expectations for myself, and it was kind of like driving me bonkers. Uh, like how would you kind of suggest that people sort of navigate that? I mean, I I think it's like you need to be kind to yourself.

SPEAKER_04 14:12

Oh, absolutely. That's probably the first thing you really I mean, and kids are, you know, kids are very malleable and they're very smart too. They they know what's important. So getting your home decorated a certain way or having things they want, they want their mom, they want to be hugged, they want to have fun. I mean, that's really the most important thing. So I do I so get that wanting everything I can be a perfectionist and wanting everything to be perfect and having it all set up for them, but it's really you, yeah, you're the the magic in your home. And it's um, I mean, it is like I say, all of these things are so hard. But if you if you tackle every single thing with I'm doing the best I can, every day, I'm doing the best I can and have some grace because we make we all make mistakes, we can make terrible mistakes. I can't believe I did that. I mean, I would say the first year and a half, maybe two years after I was divorced, I I don't really recognize that person now that I look back. I mean, I thought I was fine, I was going about my day, doing my things, you know, I looked the same. I wasn't. I was healing from my father dying. I was feeling from this massive loss of my, you know, husband now. And I I just managed, but now that I look back, I see I was just getting through. And so I I feel I feel sad for her. I have a lot of compassion for her. I want to give her a hug. You know, I want to go back and because those are super, super hard, hard days. But yeah, everyone makes mistakes, absolutely. Nothing's perfect, and there are days that you're not gonna feel so good about doing certain things, and you just have to give yourself grace.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

But so you have such a good positive outlook on kind of life after divorce. And where do you think that has come from? Because I honestly I think it like you truly, it's so like it's so good. Like, even me being divorced, you know, I'm three years separated and divorced, like I can have days where I'm like, this sucks, you know, and you can be so hard on yourself, but I'm like, I'm feeling at everything. I just yelled at the kids in the carpool line, I didn't shower today, I don't have grocery, you know, like you can feel like everything is going to shit. Um and but I feel like you have such a good kind of positive outlook on it. Like, how did you sort of get there in your process?

SPEAKER_04 16:46

Well, I mean, it wasn't always positive. Um, that's very nice. I think um, you know, the first thing that I think is important um once again to my therapist, who I adore. I mean, you're probably needed to, I don't know if you want to, I don't know if you want to share her info. Oh, she's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

Um but I think She's gonna go viral after this.

SPEAKER_04 17:04

We're all like Emily's girl. She's amazing. Looking at your marriage, your first, you know, when you're out of it, carrying around that this was a failure with you is is completely the wrong mindset. She's like, who says five year a five-year marriage is a failure? Why are you categorizing categorizing it as oh god this didn't work out? It was five years. I have two great kids.

unknown 17:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:29

I lived, you know, we did a lot of fun things and this didn't go well. This didn't work out. Now I'm moving on to something else. And it's not like a a careless I'm moving on, but you know, marriages don't have to be, you know, 50 years of marriage to be successful. There's a lot of people that have been married for a long time that are miserable, absolutely, have spent absolutely wasted their whole life putting up with stuff they you know shouldn't have or still don't want to. But um, I kind of that mindset was yeah, that wasn't a failure. And I think that gives you kind of this energy. I'm gonna start, you know, something new. And I I I I mean it was hard in a sense. I wasn't older, I was still like 32, but going out and dating.

SPEAKER_00 18:12

Yes, I would love to hear how was being right after.

SPEAKER_04 18:17

It was um I at the very beginning, it was you know, I went out with some great girlfriends, you know, and they're all married, so they're all they're all out doing you a favor to stay off. Um but it at first it was like, oh gosh, I don't want to lead with I have two kids because no one's gonna want to, you know, hang out with a 32-year-old with two five-year-olds, you know, like this is and I wish I could go back and tell her that's not true. Um, but I had a little bit of, you know, I was nervous about that. Absolutely. So I didn't lead with that all the time. But it really started, I was surprised, it really became it was just a non-issue. There was not one person that I was introduced to, dated, hung out with that had any problems with that. And maybe that's just, you know, who I had attracted. But um, yeah, it wasn't an issue, but it was interesting navigating that with your kids. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

Do you have any advice on that? Like how to best kind of introduce, you know, because we have some viewers who are obviously divorced and dating again and maybe meeting someone, and like what's kind of the best way to incorporate your kids with your, you know, new partner.

SPEAKER_04 19:31

Well, I will say that I might be a little different. I didn't have strict, you know, we need to be dating this long or three months or this. I just it was just kind of like, did it feel right? And I didn't have that um conversation like with my ex-husband. We didn't have parameters on you better wait, you know. It was just use your best judgment. Um, and you know, if you're spending a lot of time with someone, I don't that's what I I didn't understand. Like, am I supposed to wait a year? Do I have to date them two weeks? You know, like what are we? Right. So I think it was just, you know, after a period of time and you're spending time with them, it was like depending on their age, but you know, my friend's coming over, and this is my you know, just kind of just when it feels right and you use your gut. Yeah, exactly. But um, yeah, do I wish like, oh, they only saw their dad and that was it, and they didn't have to see any other people I dated, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 20:23

Like just but that's that's that's just that's not that's life, you know, and um there was a lot of you know nice people that they got to spend time with, and there were some that you know, you know, we all make mistakes, but um good but good also like learning experiences too, and I also think like you know, and we we talked with us on the phone, like the importance, you know, you have a daughter and you have a son, the importance for your daughter to see like what a healthy relationship looks like, and for your son to see how to treat a woman correctly. So I think like it's I always try and think of it like it's all great learning experiences for them as kids to see like this is kind of this is how you treat women and this is how they should be treated, and you know, this is how you should be treated as a as a girl. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 21:18

I mean, I spend more time talking to my son about being a good person as far as being a bo you know, a good partner, a husband, or boyfriend, or how you treat women can be, you know, and I I do with my my daughter, of course, but I feel like we always talk to our girls about yes, you shouldn't tolerate this and that, but it's really our boys that have to learn how to treat women with respect and dignity, and he's um he's lovely and which I love that you're doing that.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

He's gonna be a great boyfriend. I certainly hope and husband one day. I mean, I have three girls, and so you know it's crazy town over here, but I think that's so great because that is the foundation. I mean, it we always talk about the girls, but also like. The boys need it just as much, if not more. Like, hey, treat people with respect.

SPEAKER_03 22:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

And be kind.

SPEAKER_04 22:09

And I think and I think he the good thing too is that he has got to see Aunt Abby, uh, my daughter, they they've got to see their mom be independent, strong. You know, I can do these things by myself. I mean, my daughter watched me take my garbage out every week for 10 years. You know what I mean? Like, these are things that I can do. I'm fully capable. I was capable of it before I got married. And I think a lot of people, when you get married, you lose some of those things. It's like, oh, my husband will take care of that. And um, that's something that I that was interesting while I was dating you know, a lot of people. Oh, let me help you with that. And it was like, no, I'm fine. You know, I can do this. I kind of hung on to those things because I didn't want to rely on anyone else. Like I don't need a man to do this, and not that, you know, cliche kind of talk, but really, I mean, I'm a grown woman, I can do these things.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

And well, it's empowering. Yeah, I mean, the fact I you know I do for the most part, everything around here. I mean, I I if I mowed the lawn, I'd probably like, you know, lose and limb or something, so I'm not gonna do that. But the majority of the stuff around the house, you know, I do, and I think for the girls to see that, like, no, we can we can do this. Like, okay, it's Monday, the garbage needs to come in. You two get out, you're bringing those garbages up. Yeah, and you know, Monday I was cleaning out the garage, and Ruby's like, What are you what are you doing, Mom? I'm like, get the broom, like yeah, we're sweeping it. Like, I think the more you can be independent and also like for your kids to see that is better because my parents were super, super independent people, very professional, very professional people, both professionals, and I think for me to see that was and still is like I have a lot of respect for for both of them. Uh, and sometimes I struggled being a stay-at-home mom, and my girls not kind of seen like that quote unquote like go to work every day, um, and that gets hard sometimes where it's like just because I'm not going to work every day doesn't mean I'm not working. And there's a little bit of having to talk with that with kids too. Like, just because I don't have a desk job doesn't mean like what I'm doing isn't hard work. Like, yeah, camp signups. You're I mean, I I mean we could make a laundry list of all the things.

SPEAKER_04 24:42

It's full-time, it never stops, it's 24 hours a day. So, I mean, I can make an argument. There's a lot of people I know that do work full-time that don't work nearly as hard. You know what I mean? There's it that has I mean, that whole thing about being a mom isn't, you know, as hard as a full-time job. It that's ridiculous. It's hard, yes, you know, because you don't, it doesn't, it doesn't end. So I I my kids know that. Um, and I like I said, I think it's so important for them to see, no matter even if you're still married, I think it's important for them to see you be as independent as possible. Because sometimes I can be a little, you know, shocked that when I am talking to some people, that the roles that that there's some of them are very traditional, and that's not ever how it's been for me. You know, it's kind of from day one. I've always had to do, you know, those things by myself, which is great. Um and it it wasn't it just wasn't an issue. And so when getting divorced, that was kind of seamless because when I was married, I was still taking the garbage out. Let's be honest. Let's be honest. Well, you know, you know, we'll see yes and no, but I I did, but it was because you don't just because you get married, they don't need to be mature and responsible. You know what I mean? Like, there's no I always thought, well, you get married, you're gonna have to do these things. You don't. No. People don't have to do it, and they won't do it sometimes, and you have to just decide for yourself. And you can't control people.

SPEAKER_00 26:11

No, I I I learned that that has been a big thing for me is like you cannot control people, you cannot control what others do, you can only control yourself and what you do. That's a very hard one.

SPEAKER_04 26:26

That's a very hard so hard, and you can't bring people up to your level. And when I say your level, whatever in your mind, that it can be whatever it is that you're trying to accomplish, you know, your your goals, the way you see things, wait, you you know, you can't bring them here, it won't work. You have to meet someone that's here, so you might not have you know all these things in common, but if you do have this one area where is kind of your level of living and your mindset, you can't bring them there. So you gotta find someone, otherwise, it's a fruitless labor.

SPEAKER_00 27:01

It yeah, you can't control them, and I'm not sure like how much someone is really gonna change. Like, I think people grow and I think your seasons of life change. Yeah, but like I'm not sure if like the actual inherent person you are is gonna dramatically change. And I think that was something too. It's like I can't control other people, and if there are issues in the marriage or in the relationship, that's probably not gonna dramatically change.

SPEAKER_04 27:40

Yeah. I when without a lot of work or a baby. If some yeah, if some I mean, naturally, that's the first choice. Um, if someone is not going to put in serious work, and you know, to me, therapy is like any other, you know, if you broke your leg and you have to go get fixed and rehab, that's what you do, you know, and so your mental health and your mind, and if you're not willing to put in those hours and listen and receive information, yeah, it's it's kind of hard, I think, to change. Yeah, we evolve, we grow, you know, we're not the same people we were in our 20s, or every decade is different. And that's what happens, I think, in marriages too, because if you're a certain way in your 20s and you feel this way in your 30s and they don't, and it just doesn't, you know, seem to line up. Like I said, it's that's not a failure. No, it's just you know, natural evolving of two people, and their lives are different.

SPEAKER_00 28:36

So I would love so you know, we talked a little bit about how you you know dated some people. I would love to hear because it's so cute. So and we talked about this because I was very much like when I was talking to you, and I know that's like I'm only three years out, right? But I'm like, I will never get married again, and it's so that that is just terrible, and and not that I think marriage is terrible, but I think also like I'm still too close to it, if that makes sense, yeah. Um, and you were like, Well, never say never, and we had a great conversation about it, but I would love to hear kind of how you and it was unexpected, yeah, but like sort of how you found love again, and obviously you found your perfect match. I mean, he's amazing. So, I guess two questions like one, like how did you make yourself ready where you finally kind of found that right person? And you know, kind of how like I'd love just to hear your love stories, I think it's so cute.

SPEAKER_04 29:39

Yeah, um, well, I was divorced for I think it was 11 years. Okay. Um, and so throughout that 11 years, I mean, I dated, you know, a few people, and some of them were for two to three years. And unfortunately, I kept dating the same person in like a different set of skin. When reincarnated, yeah, it was like a narcissist, narcissist, narcissist, and it was um what I was familiar with. You know, that was my pattern. And I, you know, I learned that that was kind of the sparkly thing in the room that I was attracted to, and I would always get in there and then try to figure out how to make it work, and then instead of saying, you know, this isn't going to work, I would just um maybe kind of just hang in there a while because of that same concept, like, oh, I'm gonna be alone, and then okay, and all this didn't work, and you know, trying to, you know, fight off that shame of finding someone. Um, and once again, my um my life coach who had stuck with me this whole time, there was you know a period of time where I mean, I would call my mom and just scream. My mom and I are very close, just scream into the phone like he is not out there, he is not here. I am never finding anybody. I need this, this, this, this, this, this, you know, I rattled off all these things, and I'm like, I can't even find one of these things. You know, it was just so frustrating. Um, and my therapist, we would one, it was one day that we were sitting there talking, and I had that, you know, kind of breakdown saying I'm never gonna find anyone. And she said, Okay, so now what then? And I'm like, Well, I don't know, what are we gonna do? You've everything figured out, you know, like and it was like, no, you might not meet anyone. I'm like, what do you mean? And she's like, well, ever, you might not, you might just this this might be it. And it took my breath away because I'm like, you're the worst therapist. You screw all your other great phrases. Um what do you mean? You're supposed to say, Of course I'm gonna find somebody. And I started saying, like, single people die earlier than married people, and you're, you know, and she's like, Emily, if you don't meet someone, what are you gonna do? You know, are you gonna end it? Or, you know, and it was like she was just goading me, and it was, you know, I had an answer. I'm like, no, I'm not gonna end it. I guess I'll enjoy my family. Enjoy my friends. You know, I said this like an argumentative kid. Um, she's like, okay, well then I suggest you do that. Why don't you just really enjoy the things that are around you? Pay attention to that. Let's not date, let's not, you know, go on a date, let's not answer a text, stay with your friends, stay with your family, enjoy your time. And I because I had been, you know, kind of dating, you know, a fair amount. Yeah. And it was like for me being alone, that concept of like he might not come. And or it might not happen. I hate saying he might not come because he's not coming to save me. But yeah, well, you mean it was hard to just really swallow that. And I finally said, Okay, all right, if this is it, then I better enjoy my own company, and I better enjoy what I'm doing. And I had a lot, you know. I'm like, I have so much that I enjoy. I have some great friends, I love my kids, I have so much to be thankful for. Like, this is good. Okay, and so I just went about it and just day by day good my life, and it just kind of I just kind of took it off the radar because I was missing left and right. I was picking, you know, like I said, the wrong person because I thought they checked one of these important things. And um, of course, that's when you find someone when you don't, when you're not looking. So um, I had booked a trip to go to Nantucket. Sounds so and I ironically, I used to travel all the time with my ex-husband. So, I mean, that's a whole other chapter. We were able to stay um friends for a very long time, even if we were dating other people, but which was not without its struggles. But um, without him missing out on the kids, you know, visiting places, it was like, yeah, do you want to go here?

SPEAKER_01 34:02

Yeah, which I think is great.

SPEAKER_04 34:03

Yeah, we were gonna go, and um he was, you know, it was something he was just it it was to the point where I'm like, I'm gonna go by myself now. I and and I didn't really like I said, this was still a okay, I can do these things on my own. Yeah, I'll take them by myself. So um, I wasn't totally, I brought my uh nanny with who was a became actually more of like a good friend. So we traveled to Nantucket and um missed a flight. We were I had chartered a boat, yacht for the day, and we missed that. So we had to rebook onto this different day, and that day was cloudy, and I remember looking in the weather, and I you know, it was just like very frustrating, this whole thing. And um my husband out Miles was the captain of that boat, so he called me on the phone and said, Hey, we know we're gonna have a great day today. And there was just something in his voice. Like I we say this, you know, I I knew it at the time and I say it now, but it was just very intriguing. We kind of had a longer conversation for a short, little brief introduction. And then I took the kids and my nanny. We went on the boat and had a great, had a great day. Um, I love this. And so at the you know, we were just talking about where do people go in Nantucket on a Monday, you know? It was just a normal question. And he said, Well, you know, this is a great place. There's live music, you should go here, and I go here a lot. And so, um, yeah, I think I I think it was me that said, Well, you should meet us, you know, because we were having so much fun. Yeah, yeah, maybe I will. That'll be fun. And then just got off the boat and went about, you know, went to dinner, and that was that. And then he texted me, you know, hey, we're gonna go there. Do you want to meet up? And so then we we went, and Kelly and myself went for a little bit, and then she went back with the kids. But and we just had a great time, had a great night, and it was incredibly fun, and you know, he is not someone on paper that I would have necessarily dated. You know, it was and he didn't check all of these boxes, or probably any of them in that regard. Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

So those ones weren't, I mean, and those people that did weren't working.

SPEAKER_04 36:18

No. So clearly you just had to shake it all up and do something, do something new. And I wasn't thinking that. This wasn't like, oh, I'm gonna, you know, yeah, right, date this person. Right.

SPEAKER_00 36:27

Um and 'cause he lived there, right? Full time.

SPEAKER_04 36:30

He lived there. Um he was from Boston um and he had graduated from college with, you know, an economics degree and wanted to just work on the water for a while. And so we just kind of kept talking that week and kept hanging out that week. And um I think the big, you know, the the big exciting part of the story is that he was quite a bit younger, aggressively younger, um 17 years younger than I am. Um and I think it's amazing, it was a no girl. But it was like a no-go, like, oh, this is so silly, what are we doing? Funny, like, whatever. Um, and when I left to go back home, it was like still texting, still talking, still calling. And it just didn't stop. It just didn't stop. And then it was like, should I go out and visit him? Oh, what am I doing? And that's when I feel like I've been invoking my therapist this whole time. She should probably be on the show. I guess I think I mean I'm gonna be, I'm gonna use her after this show because she's so amazing. She was just like, you know, I I was like, this is so dumb. I shouldn't be doing this. Is this, you know, and and she's like, you're entitled to have a good time. Are you doing anything dangerous? Are you doing anything reckless? Are you no, no, no? You're entitled to have fun. So lose the judgment, lose the this and that, and and enjoy yourself. And so that was kind of my attitude, and I was enjoying, we were enjoying each other's company, and just kept enjoying each other's company, and it was the most natural relationship I've ever been in. For someone, it's new to anyone listening to this, but for someone who was in their 20s and I'm in my 40s, to you would think that they're, you know, they're young, they're going out, they're doing these things, and what you know, they're not gonna be checking and or calling or making you feel trust, especially it was long distance. It wasn't like that. It was just like you never questioned never, there was never a jealous moment. There was never a why didn't he call me back? It was so with drama and arguing and tension and control, none of it. It was just so weird because you'd think someone that age, maybe they're more immature, you know. I'm I'm in my 40s, and he was far more mature than anyone that I dated that was older than me or you know, my age.

SPEAKER_00 39:00

So that's sounds like he's an old soul. He is, and also men do it all the time.

SPEAKER_04 39:05

Oh, for sure. Oh, for sure. But I didn't go without getting a lot of heat.

SPEAKER_00 39:09

I mean, I know, but like to me that's so ridiculous because like if so, if the you know, whatever, 17 years apart, men do that all the time. And it's like, oh, good for you, buddy. You got a young, you know, hottie here. For sure.

SPEAKER_04 39:24

They congratulate you at five.

SPEAKER_00 39:26

I am like, you are a boss, bitch. That is amazing. And I've personally met Miles, and he's like the kindest soul. Yeah, and you guys can tell that you genuinely like love each other and genuinely like appreciate each other, and yeah, kind of a couple of the stories that you told me just even before we went live of like the things that he does for you just like as a partner, you know. Like, I think it's so hard to even, you know, we talk about marriage, we talk about relationships, but like, regardless of all of that, just to find someone that's like can be a partner, yeah, I think is extremely, extremely hard. And I you know, it's that old saying, like, age is just a number, you know. I I really, I truly, truly believe that. And he it sounds like he is an old soul, and like he was more mature and more with it than the guys you were dating your age. Absolutely, but I get that feeling of of being like or feeling the heat, and but also at the end of the day, like I'm so over this, like it's wrong, you know, wrong for us or whatever, but like it's cool if a dude does it.

SPEAKER_04 40:38

Yeah, well, and first of all, you know, once again, it's nobody's business. Exactly. My life. Exactly. Um, and at this point, at this, I mean, at the time I was 40, I think what, two or three, I really did know this is my life. And I didn't I didn't care what other people thought. But I'm I'm not gonna say that it wasn't present, you know. I mean, when I even very good friends, even very close friends were, what are you doing? You know, a little nervous, I mean, about what are your expectations or what is your end game? And that kind of bothered me because I'm like, I don't have I don't need an end game. It doesn't end with me getting married and us doing that. That's not how it works. It's like I'm enjoying my time here. Yeah, this is what I'm doing. I'm happy. And you're happy, and um and I deserve to be happy, and I deserve to be happy, and so yeah, at first it was, you know, it was funny, and it still is like I never think about his age. Like this is the first time I've said this in a long time, but um a lot of people, yeah, it was kind of kind of weird at first. A little fodder, people thought it was funny, and um, and I, you know, I kind of reveled in that, like this is hysterical, like this isn't gonna just it won't go anywhere. We're just having fun, but it just didn't stop, didn't go, it didn't find an end. And so when COVID happened, it was like, should I move there, you know? And and and I was the one that was like, should no, you know, you know, we should so you're gonna want something else. This I'm you know, I'm older, and you and it just no, he didn't, and he made a lot of effort, and he was very like, like I said, mature, responsible, and a partner. Yes, I mean, doesn't matter how much money you have, doesn't matter where you live, it doesn't matter, you know, all of these things. If if you you don't need to be a partner if you have all those things, exactly. It's like you can be a partner though without having it. Like he was there present, um more so, like I said, than anyone I'd ever met. So all these things where you're like, he was geographically undesirable, you know, we were different ages, I had kids, he didn't, you know, he's starting his career, his life, you know, I'm over here, you know. Like, how do finances work? All of those things seemed um on paper kind of insurmountable, but it it was the easiest thing I've ever done. Just just seamless.

SPEAKER_00 43:08

And I know that that's not the story for everyone, and but I think the story is too, is that like I have a couple friends right now who are divorced and they like have all the checked, checked, you know, well, I don't want to go out with that guy because he doesn't match X, Y, Z, or like I I don't. It's like give it a shot. Like, we yeah, you don't, you know, you you have you have all these preconceived notions of like what you think you need, and a lot of it, like to your point, like I think you have you're sometimes you're picking the wrong people. Yeah, and I feel thankful I found a partner who's really wonderful and is like genuinely a partner, um, but I don't that's not always the case.

SPEAKER_04 43:57

No, I mean Miles is you know 30. Two years old, and he's coaching lacrosse for the last five years. He's showing up. I mean, my kids call Miles if I don't answer the phone, or sometimes just Miles, you know, like he picks him up, he's present, and that doesn't require all of these things that I thought. It was just someone that was um very much wanting to be in a partnership. And it is interesting. I mean, we I make fun of him, you know, he loves birds and he's he's like an old person in that way, and he likes to go to bed early, I like to stay up late. You know, it doesn't matter, you know, like you said, age really doesn't. But I was very skeptical at first, but I think that letting go of what this person should look like, what my life should look like. It should look like this. I had to just throw it all out, and it's me.

SPEAKER_00 44:52

And you've probably never been happier.

SPEAKER_04 44:53

No, no, I've never been happier. But it was all it you have to really think about what you need and how you want to live and not put someone in that's gonna fix these things. He's gonna fill in this box, he's gonna fill. No, I mean, there are things that I you know I had to learn to do on my own and and really just accept that no one's coming to do this, it's just gonna be me doing it. And once I was like, okay, yeah, I'm good, and then he seamlessly kind of just fit in, and that's where we are, and we're super happy. We've been together six years now.

SPEAKER_00 45:30

And um how was that transition from him moving here uh and meeting the kid? Or I mean, I know he met the kids that day, right? But then, like, how was that sort of transitioning it to, you know, he's gonna move here and kind of be well, he had met the kids the same day I met him.

SPEAKER_04 45:51

So in that regard, it wasn't like we have this big introduction that I have to have. Um it was I mean, I hate to sound like, oh, it was just so easy, but you know, they met him through I was there two weeks. So he had met them throughout the day. We went on another boat trip, you know, and so they knew him and they knew I talked to him on the phone. Oh, I'm talking to Miles, you know, and my kids at this point, I mean, they weren't five. I mean, they were um, I'm trying to remember, you know, they had have been 12, 10 or 12 or something. Um, so they were pretty cognizant.

SPEAKER_00 46:22

They know what's going on, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:24

And and they liked him, and it was just like, yeah, really, Miles is great, he's really nice. And so when he he wants to move to Minnesota, it was kind of like, oh, that's great, he should move here. And I did, we did have the conversation at first. Well, should you just get like an apartment on your own, you know? And it just seemed kind of for us, kind of silly, it seemed silly, um, because he would come up and visit during that time frame and he was staying here, and it's like, what you know, I don't know, what what is the point of getting an apartment? But it was pretty seamless, and the kids understood, and kids get it, you know. They do they they know when you're happy, they know when someone is kind, and they you know immediately fell in love with Miles. And so it was um it was really good, but it was so unexpected. And I never would have been open to someone like that had I not had that conversation with Belinda to just stop because I wasn't looking. When you're you know, like, no, I'm not gonna oh he you know, not looking. It's not gonna happen. This isn't going there.

SPEAKER_00 47:29

So then of course totally reframing how you're looking at things, which I think is so important.

SPEAKER_04 47:35

Yeah, I mean, there are when you want to do things and you feel like you need someone else to help you accomplish these things, I think that's when you get into trouble, your expectations. And it was like I've really had to go over this is my life, this is me, I'm in charge of whatever, whatever's gonna happen, I'm gonna do it. And I mean, like the example, we had had a cabin growing up, and we sold it when my dad got sick, and I had wanted a cabin so badly. I wanted one, and I was like, Well, I can't have a cabin because I'm I'm single, and I'm I'm I don't know how to handle that stuff. And I'm you know, and it was like, well, I've run my own house, I own my own home, I pay my own bills, I can and I wanted this and I wanted this, and it was like, Melinda, what am I the therapist? Why can't you have it? Why don't you buy it? Well, I don't know how to well, I don't know how to put deal with a boat, and it's like, okay, well, if you want one, I'd get busy doing it because it's your life. And it was like, I'm sitting here waiting for someone to come in here so I can I can you know complete this little dream I had. And it was like, oh my god, yeah, I can figure it out. Yeah, like what am I doing? And now you have a captain, and so you know, I bought the cabin, and lo and behold, you know, look, you know, miles can fit right into it. But it was like you you have to be able to just say, This is me, I'm gonna do it on my own. I love that, and it's scary, but good things happen, you know, and so when did you make the decision to say, All right, I'm gonna get married again?

SPEAKER_00 49:14

I'm gonna, I'm gonna do it.

SPEAKER_04 49:16

Um, well, that was interesting because that was one where I was like, I'm not gonna get married again. You know, we dated and it was like, I'm already done it, don't need to, like, let's do the Goldiehan Kurt Russell thing. You know, like we don't need to to do that. Um and as you as we kept dating, um, I know, you know, Miles for Miles it was relatively important, I think, just because you know, I'd already been married, so I kind of knew that whole thing, but he hadn't experienced that. And that's something that I had to learn, that we both had to learn, that there are things that he has not experienced at his age that I have, that I could easily be like, oh, yeah, I've already done that, you know, and just like rob him of all these experiences. And there's things that, you know, he wouldn't be able to relate to from a 43-year-old woman at the time, you know. Like, so we really talked a lot about that, about what changes are gonna happen in our lives at you know, both of our ages. Like, what's gonna I mean I talked to him about menopause, you know? I was like, This happens, buddy. I'm like, what happens at 50? Yes, what happens at 50 when we were dating? And he's like, um, I'm like, to a woman, just think. And he's like, menopause. And I'm like, you don't want to be doing this with you know, like, you just don't. And he was like, nope, I'm in, you know, okay. And so, but we did have to kind of meet each other and talk about all these things. And so when it came to getting married, um, I wanted like I the idea of being married to him, like, oh, absolutely. But I think that it really meant a lot for him to do something like that. And then that kind of made me realize, well, I really want to be married to him. So um, yeah, we got married in Nantucket where we met. And uh, yeah, it was it was a great day. So here we are.

SPEAKER_00 51:12

I just I it's such a it's like the best story. It seriously is, and I love it for well first I love it because I can tell you're just so happy, and I think I think when you're going through a divorce, it feels so daunting, it feels really alone, and you can get like very depressed, right? And you think about like my life is gonna just be shit.

SPEAKER_04 51:38

Oh, the apartment with cats, yeah, right, absolutely. I had that all, I saw I saw it all.

SPEAKER_00 51:42

And I'm very allergic to cats. I'm like, this is my fucking life.

SPEAKER_04 51:45

How am I gonna put these cats in the apartment if I'm allergic?

SPEAKER_00 51:48

Yeah, a hairless cat or something, I don't, you know, but I think it just is about like when you realize being alone is okay, yeah, and the power of just being like, I'm okay on my own, and I can do things hard things, yeah, then how your story is is like that's when you're gonna meet the right person, and it's gonna be it could be very unexpected. And I also like love the fact that you're like, yeah, it wasn't the norm. It was it didn't fit my checklist, but now like you've never been happier, and you can have happiness after all of the heartache and and the hard times, and I think that is the story. What I want like my viewers to know is like yeah, it it's not it doesn't always have to be hard and sad, like there's a silver lining to it all.

SPEAKER_04 52:52

I mean, it's it's your life, you're fighting for it, you're fighting for happiness, and that happiness does not have to be a man delivered to you that fits, you know, all of these things. And like, I mean, Miles and I are so happy right now, but I'm not about to say we're gonna be together for the next 40, you know, like that's what I've really learned is that a successful marriage or a successful anything doesn't have to have a time limit on it, or you know, it has to have the minimum of this many years, you know. Like, I am just happy where I'm at, but I would have been not able to have this experience had I used these old parameters that I had, which weren't working, like we said, whatsoever. I mean, I'm we're talking and it seemed like it was a seamless 10 years. There's some dark days in there.

SPEAKER_02 53:42

Oh, I think that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_04 53:43

Don't get me wrong. I mean, talking about, oh, I need to be independent. Yeah, but there was a lot of I spent a lot of time with people because probably I didn't want to be alone. And that they when everyone's partnered up and you're single. I mean, I have a great group of friends, uh, four couples, and we uh we call our group tax party five because I was the fifth, the fifth wheel, just the single fifth wheel all the time. Now it's called party five plus one.

SPEAKER_01 54:07

Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_04 54:08

It's um it's great, but you do have to fight some of that stuff, you know, when you're single. Like, I can come too just because I don't have a partner. I don't need do I need a plus one? Like, I'd like to go to dinner, you know, like when it's like the groups, and you gotta just interject yourself in there and just let it be.

SPEAKER_00 54:24

And be comfortable with it. Yeah. Like you're fun, you're cool. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah, sometimes I can bring conversation to the table. You know, not everything has to be. I I can I can hang. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 54:39

No, you have to definitely have to have that attitude. But like I said, it wasn't always easy. But life is gonna bring you different things at different times. And I'm grateful and I had that moment, like I'm sure so many women do, screaming in my car, punching the steering wheel that I'm gonna die alone in a weird apartment. Why I'd be an apartment, I don't know. But I'm gonna be in an apartment and it's gonna be dark, and no one's gonna talk to me, and I'm gonna be sad, and everyone's gonna have, you know, and I'd feel that way on Father's Day. Like, oh my god, look at all these families together. Look at the you know, I was just it was there's so many things. I see like a dad and a mom together, and I was like, oh, this, you know, fuck that.

SPEAKER_00 55:21

I think Father's Day is actually the best holiday being a divorce woman.

SPEAKER_04 55:25

Oh, you do? Maybe I'm going because my dad died, so that made me sad. That would be that's a double whammy. I'm like, I hate this day.

SPEAKER_00 55:31

That's a double whammy. But like, take I thought I would have to make Father's Day so perfect. Yeah. And now I'm like, girls, you better do something nice for your dad. Yeah, I'll take you shopping to pick something out. Let's do a nice card, but like it's not your responsibility.

SPEAKER_03 55:50

It's not my responsibility. No, it's not. You're responsible to yourself and to your kids and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:58

Well, Emily, this was seriously an amazing conversation. I'm so thankful that you came on, and your story is just it's wonderful, and I'm so happy for you. And thank you for being so honest uh and you know, raw about your experience because I think everyone likes some not everyone, but people like to sugarcoat it sometimes.

SPEAKER_03 56:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:25

Uh, and I think your story is just amazing. It's like, yeah, it's gonna be shitty for a while, it's there's gonna be hard times, but like focus on yourself, you got it, and when you're meant to find the right person, yeah, you will.

SPEAKER_04 56:41

And what other people think of you is none of your business.

SPEAKER_00 56:44

I love that! What other people think of you is none of your business. I love that.

SPEAKER_04 56:51

So well, thanks for having me. Yeah, thank you so much.