Reality Renewed
Kaley Mauzy is the creator and host of Reality Renewed, a podcast dedicated to honest conversations about life after divorce, healing through change, and starting again with intention. Through storytelling and thoughtful dialogue, Kaley creates space for vulnerability, growth, and connection, reminding listeners they are not alone as they navigate new chapters.
Reality Renewed
What Your Kids Actually Need After Divorce | Erin Pash
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In this episode, Kaley sits down with licensed marriage and family therapist Erin Pash to talk about what kids really need after a family splits — not the scripts, but the truth. Together they unpack why children in divorced families carry more anxiety than we realize, how parents unknowingly pass their emotions onto their kids, and what unconditional love actually looks like in the messy middle of co-parenting. A grounding, honest conversation for anyone navigating life on the other side of a marriage.
Erin Pash, DBA, LMFT is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist with 15+ years of experience and the founder of Ellie Mental Health, grown from one Minnesota clinic to 265+ locations nationwide. She’s authored the only training in the country for therapists working in complex family systems and is the author of the upcoming Everybody Sucks Sometimes (BenBella Books, December 2026). Erin leads Pash Company, consults on mental health legislation, and wrangles six kids and an undisclosed number of cats.
Hi, and welcome back to Reality Renewed. Today we have the wonderful Aaron Pash.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm here.
SPEAKER_00I'm excited. I'm so excited. And we just coincidentally, the universe came together and we met at the wonderful children's hospital gala towards the end of the night, but we were still with it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it's good enough to accurately share numbers and talk about the podcast.
SPEAKER_00So I think that's really the recipe. Recipe for success is meet for a podcast towards the end of the night, but where you're still with it.
SPEAKER_01Yes, exactly.
SPEAKER_00So I'm so happy this worked out and I'm so appreciative that you were willing to come on because I know you have a very, very busy life with, you know, five kids and travel and working and just being a mom and also working at the same time. So I I so appreciate you taking the time to come on.
SPEAKER_01Well, of course. I'm very happy to be here. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, thank you. Well, why don't you tell uh the listeners a little bit about yourself?
SPEAKER_01Sure. So um we got talking a little bit about like every good blended family, like you lead with that. How many kids do you have? Yeah. Right? So I am a blended family, but more than that, I am a licensed marriage and family therapist. And so I have been doing this work in kind of this complex family systems is kind of it used to be called high conflict families. Then it was complex family systems. I don't even really know what they're calling it now.
SPEAKER_00Um complex family systems seems nicer.
SPEAKER_01It doesn't it? I think that's why. Um but so I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist in Minnesota and Florida, and truly, like my expertise um when I was still practicing was in um working with the highest conflict families that you can imagine. So in and out of courtrooms. I did a lot of conscious uncoupling. That was a nice balance between that and you know, post-divorce, post-decree, um, family conflict, and really just found that my niche was I love kids, but the way I want to help them is through their parents. And so just did a lot of family therapy. Um, I authored one of the only trainings in the country. Actually, I think it's the only training in the country to teach therapists how to work with this style complex dynamic. Um good for you. Thank you. Because it's really, it really is tricky. I mean, even a lot of therapists who are trained um in relational systems, like family systems, when you get somebody sitting in your office, like bitching each other out, that's a really intense, like you got a couple of options as a therapist. And so once I got enough experience with that and really like took all of these adjacent trainings like family mediation and parent consulting and all these kind of alternative dispute resolution opportunities, um, I was kind of like, no, I like being a therapist, but I need like a group of people who can also feel confident being a therapist in this.
SPEAKER_00So that's amazing. Good for you, because I think, you know, after you know, going through a divorce uh and having three little kids, there was a lot to figure out. And I think the last thing you want to do is have the kids feel like it's their fault or have them feel like you know, this is their problem to take on. And so I think, you know, my ex and I had to really navigate that well because even though you want to some days bite each other's heads off, you have to also try and keep it calm for the kids, yes, for these little kids' sake, because it's not they didn't choose it, like they didn't choose to have parents who who got divorced, but you know it happens, it it's it's life, unfortunately, or so but I would love to talk about that um because I think a lot of the information out there is really around like how to talk to kids about when you're getting divorced, or how to talk to your kids, you know, about you know, living in it's gonna be two different homes. But I don't really feel like there's a lot of information out there about like what kids actually need after divorce, like what are kind of like the most universal needs uh for these kids? Uh and I'm sure it differs by age.
SPEAKER_01It does.
SPEAKER_00But what would you kind of say that those really universal needs are that people who are getting separated or going through divorce really need to kind of keep in mind?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think that's really important. So I have found that there's kind of two schools of parents the ones who are like helicoptery, is my kid okay, are they handling this okay? And they tend to put a lot of their own stuff on the kid, which is bad. And then the other ones are like, eh, they'll be fine, they're resilient. And so I think it depends on the type of parents they have um to better understand their needs. But the most important thing is they just need to be reassured that it's not their fault and that like love is unconditional. You know, so they uh depending on their age, we'll just take like a school age kid who's like eight or nine, they understand concepts of love, they have basic emotional attunement, all that kind of good stuff, but um they might not yet quite understand. Well, if you loved mom and mom loved dad, but you guys are not in love anymore, does that mean you won't love me anymore? Right? And so they start to, you know, they start to kind of think about some of those things. And so it's our job as parents to not assume that if they're having a bad day, right? It's like, you know, we we like a lot of divorced parents create anxiety disorders in their children because they instead of asking them questions like, I f I feel like you're having some big feelings, do you want to talk about it? They say, Are you being upset because mom and dad got divorced? Totally. And they're like, No, I'm upset because I just found out that it's gonna be really hard if I ever want to go to space someday. Totally, totally, yes, yes, and then you the parent is not like dealing with their own anxiety, and so they like like I really call it like leaking, like they leak the parent leaks their stuff onto the kid, and so you have to you have to balance, like, don't assume they're okay, but please don't assume that they're like life is over, yeah, like life is over for them because they know a lot of kids who have divorced parents. Um kids like the research is pretty clear that kids are better off in a home that is stable and peaceful than one that is filled with instability and conflict, and so like there is some natural peace that can come from a divorced family. I think the hardest thing is kids having to change routines and change homes. That's where I think you can get away with them being a little bit more resilient. I mean, if even in intact families or families who stay together, kids move all the time. Um, and so we have to kind of like normalize some of those things, but also don't just assume they're fine. Um, so it's a little bit different, but I think the biggest thing is making sure we're asking open-ended questions and not putting our stuff on them. Because divorce is oh true. Really for the adults. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, it's such a good point because like you know, we were talking a little bit before about this, but my 11-year-old, like, she just they have big feelings at that age, and it's you know, she'll kill me for saying this, but like hormones and all the things that they have going on. So some days, like I'll pick her up from school, and I'm like, Well, are you okay? Like, are you did you what's going on? Are you okay? And she's like, mom, just like I don't want to talk about it. And it's like, I take that so personal, you know, but at the same day, it's like later on, she was like, No, I just like had a bad day because like I have a ton of homework and like I was hoping I could just come home and chill and relax. And so it's so true, like that the you know, space comment you made, it's like it's such a good point that a lot of it like we can't take personally because these kids are just gonna have feelings about everything, everything.
SPEAKER_01I'll never forget so many parents have like sent their kids to therapy because of their divorce, and then they'll be mad that I'll tell them like your kid's fine. Right, like they want them to have an issue, or they want like if it's so hard for them, they have a hard like for the parent, they have such a hard time understanding how if it's so hard for me and I'm an adult, how could it not be hard for a kid? And I draw like my favorite like metaphor for this is think about how bendy babies are. Like when kids break bones, they heal in like three hours. I mean, not actually, but like three weeks. If I break a bone at near 40, like expect me to be on crutches and like debilitated for at least 12 weeks. Oh, totally. So they they just recover faster, they rebound faster, they have like so many fresh new baby neuron development happening where they can like rewire pretty quick. Um, I was divorced when my kids were I have to remember now, like seven and nine. Okay, yeah, yeah, something like seven and nine-ish. And it would like either boys, so the way it came out for them was a little bit more physical. Um, but it's also hard to say they were kind of physical before that, right? You know, my boys are very close or they're two years apart and they have sibling rivalry rivalry, they could not be more opposite, and so we were kind of having to pay attention to behaviors with my divorce, came a big move. Um, however, my ex-husband moved to the same community we did. We had kind of always wanted to be close, and um, so it worked out. And now, if you were to ask my kids and remarried, they love their stepdad. Um, we the three of us, my ex, my husband, and myself, we get along great. And my p my kids would not choose for us to have stayed married. Oh, that's amazing. They love their life so much now, and the opportunity to have the adults that love them and their step siblings, and so we we spend a lot of time as parents so worried that everything we do is gonna be like this thing that's gonna like hurt them. And it's not true, and how we go about it matters.
SPEAKER_00Right. I'm so happy for you that you guys have that. That's amazing because I feel like it's I would say it's somewhat rare, wouldn't you?
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, I I think the part the reason why it's rare so it's not super rare. Only about five percent of like divorces end up in these like super high conflict situations. So like 15% of them need more support, five percent of them become like this ongoing, like revolving tour. But those are the ones people hear about. And then let's take just like regular adult feelings about relationships, and people who are still married can't put themselves in a position of like, how would you not be jealous? How could you ever be the parent? So, like, it's actually a lot of married people who haven't been divorced who like put a stigma. Totally who probably should be divorced, yeah, who should be, or they just like they can't like my sister. I love her to death. She's like, I don't know, I couldn't do it. She's like, I couldn't like take care of somebody else's kids, and she like knows that about herself, so like bless her heart, but I didn't know I could until I did, right? And so I think people feel so uncomfortable with this idea of like, I don't want to get divorced because somebody else is gonna raise my children, and that makes them feel unsettled, or like I could never picture my husband like getting along with somebody who got remarried to my husband, and it's it's like so far fetched emotionally that when people see me and my husband and my ex-husband all together at a baseball game, you know, they're kind of like put off. Right. But not because we're the ones with the blinds. Right, it's their own It's their own shit, which is is a thing. I haven't actually tackled that much. Like people who are in blended families, like we talk about it. Um, but then you like and and I think they're also just nervous, like I don't know who to how to act. Yeah. And so you just kind of get to know people, and now like our inner circle of friends and our community is the same, and they just they don't think twice about it.
SPEAKER_00Which that's amazing. I I think you know, kind of back to that. I mean, even where when I was getting divorced, I would say like 90% of the people were great, and I've talked about this on the podcast, were amazing and supportive. And then I had that like 10% that were kind of little assholes.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I think, you know, now that I've been over three years out of separation and divorce, you know, I kind of look back and I'm like, I I felt so offended at the time and felt like it was taken so personally, but now like through meeting people like you and doing my own work, it's like, oh, that had nothing to do with me. Nothing, like that's their own shit because they're you know, not happy in their relationship, or they're going or it's triggering something in them. Um, but yeah, it was hard at the beginning to be like, like, why are you being mean? Like, this isn't your like business.
SPEAKER_01Right. Like, are you grieving a loss that I don't know anything about? Totally. Like, so I'm really sorry I did this to you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, or like, or like, are you, you know, like I'm sorry, you know, it's you have you don't feel you can get out of your marriage yet, but like that's not my that's not my thing.
SPEAKER_01Or some people, like I this is my opinion. I'm like a pro-marriage therapist who believes in divorce. Like, I love that. That's how I am as just a human being. Like, I don't believe we should ever expose ourselves to unnecessary hardship if we can work it out. Like, if marriage is something of value, and I believe that, and you should try, but also like know when it's just not gonna work and it's totally fine. With that being said, I think that so many people like I cringe a little bit when I hear people be like, marriage is a choice, and everyone can work through it. And I just I just know that is not true, right? And so I think the people who are in their marriages, and and there is very real realness around like there are people who are stuck in their marriage. Financially they can't leave, course of control, sometimes abuse, like just logistics, maybe it is their faith, like they like shame, guilt, community, whatever it is, like there are people who cannot get out, and I have a ton of respect for that. And at the same time, everything in life that is worth it is hard, you know, and it's like every every journey worth going on is always an uphill battle. Like I believe in that, I have lived the proof of that, and so um it's not to discount anyone's individual experience, but it is not easy, right? And sometimes the easier choice is staying in the relationship, yeah. 1000%. Yeah, like instead of navigating co-parenting relationships, it's like, oh, if I want to go out, I actually have to find a babysitter. Like that is easier than having to shift weekends and file with attorneys. Right.
SPEAKER_00And yeah, and all the host of things that that come with it. So let's kind of go into that. Um, talking about like what parents should first prioritize in those first months once they are officially separated. So like kids are, you know, going most the time going to two different houses unless you're nesting, which I did. That's a whole other episode.
SPEAKER_01I did that. No, I did that for a little bit. Yeah. Because I was moving and like just life in transition. I like nesting. So my dad is a retired judge, and he would sometimes ask me what to do with really high conflict families.
SPEAKER_00Have we talked about this? No. That my mom's a retired judge.
SPEAKER_01What? Yeah. I knew your name looked familiar. No, we haven't talked about this. Where was she a judge? Honey County. My dad goes to Dakota.
SPEAKER_00No way. I'm sure they know they know each other.
SPEAKER_01Oh my gosh. That's so funny.
SPEAKER_00And my dad's a criminal defense attorney. My mom's a scientist.
SPEAKER_01I'm like totally different.
SPEAKER_00But I bet, like, I bet my dad probably knows your dad from because he did case in Dakota. Okay, anyway. As soon as we're done, I will text him.
SPEAKER_01He's in Amsterdam looking at the tulips with my mom. Stop it. I know it's so cute. They're adorable. They really are. It's gross. Um Sabbath love, of course. Sabbath love. Um, okay, what was the question? Sorry. Went on a tangent. I was telling you that. So my dad would be like, Aaron, what do I do with these super high conflict people, knowing that I was ingrained in this work as a therapist. And I would suggest nesting sometimes. Like, if people are truly to the point of that much dysfunction that they can't even do it for their kids, then let the kids have the stability. You know, like if parents can't show up to be the source of resilience through this because they're so like self-obsessed and refusing to work on their own shit, then let the kids be in charge. Yeah. And the best thing a judge can do is let the children kind of have some of that say in control.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Alternatively, because the question really was like, what do they need in the first few months? Is my favorite is finding this balance of a lot of times kids can react because they feel out of control.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01And kids don't really have a lot of control, but there's basic things like every kid at every age has, and that's like control over their body and their sense of self and how they relate to their environment, like things we can't take from them. So my favorite thing to tell parents of all ages in the first few months of divorce is give control to the kids when you can. So like if they're going back and forth between homes, they don't have control over that. But engage them in things like what we're gonna do for dinner and how we're gonna spend the weekend and like involve them a little bit more in some of that how we're gonna spend time together as a family and nurturing that. Um, sometimes you have to probe them with options because we all know that talking about for what's for dinner is like the bane of human existence.
SPEAKER_00I always joke that I could be I'm gonna hopefully one day be sponsored by DoorDash because the amount of DoorDash I do on a weekly basis. I mean, literally. When all the kids I do too. Yeah, kids are all in different activities, different times. I mean, I wish we could all have a civilized dinner together at the same time, but we try to like two nights a week. That's great.
SPEAKER_01It doesn't, but it doesn't happen. I was like on Thursday, I was like, oh great, we're all home and we're not doing this. Maybe we could bike to the village and go have dinner. And there was like, no, no, nope, we've got this, we've got this. I'm like, that was cute. There's like three of us together at the same time.
SPEAKER_00Totally, it's so hard. It is so hard. But but to that point, like just even if it is like, hey, we're all getting Chipotle tonight, like let's all sit together.
SPEAKER_01I mean, it does matter. Yeah, it does. So that, but that's like the tangible thing I tell parents. Like, give them control where you can. It makes such a big difference, especially in kids who are having some, you know, averse behaviors. And what I mean by that is, you know, maybe some acting out in school, maybe some, you know, a little bit more depressed or melancholy behavior. They really like feeling that bit of control um when things feel out of control. And I've seen like kids snap out of some of the problem behaviors pretty quick when the parents really integrate them in some of that decision making in each home. It doesn't require the parents to make the decisions together. It's the parent making the decision with the child. And it's just it works nine out of ten times.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I love that. Well, I mean, even for me who's three years out, I'm like, that's even just good information for me to remember too. I mean, even though that they're it feels more routine. I mean, my daughter, my youngest was two when it happened, so she doesn't really know any different. But you know, she she has made comments earlier, like, you know, like why so why do I always have to go back and forth? And why, you know, why you know it's like other kids, like, I know like my friend doesn't do that. Like, why do you guys do that? So it is like stuff can still come up later for them for sure.
SPEAKER_01And just talk to them. Like, when kids ask questions where you don't have a clear answer, you can answer with a question. I know it can be annoying, but it's it's they aren't as annoyed about it as adults are. Totally. They kind of like, and it's really good to like just from child development perspective. So I'll get a little scientific for a second. Creating new neurons and pathways in your brain is called synaptogenesis. It's creating those synapse connections. And I like to use opportunities of resilience for an opportunity to just like help them be better humans, where we as just like moms who aren't divorced, maybe forget that we are like they might be in school this many hours a week and we might only we might see them less than all their friends and teachers, but like it's still our job to help nurture who they are outside of activities. And so when you answer a tough question with a question, it helps them create problem solving and like deeper thought in their own brain. I love that. Me too. And so I again I my my children are my test subjects.
SPEAKER_00Perfect. I'll send mine over. Then you only have eight.
SPEAKER_01It's not like then it's eight's fine, but honestly, the more the merrier. And um, yes, we are definitely that house too. Like, I it's my favorite feeling when I walk in the house after a long day and there's like a hundred pairs of shoes at the front door. So they can come anytime. Okay, love it. Yes. Um, but that's so if they ask you questions like why do I have to go back and forth, you can ask them a question that says, Why do you think you have to go back and forth? I love that. Because then they arrive at the answer of like, well, because I love my mom and my dad. Yeah. Instead of you having to say, Well, because you have to spend time with mom and dad. You know, like it gives like it feels a little inauthentic when you have to say, Well, because you love us both. Right. You know, like that's like telling a kid how to feel versus them arriving at that on their own. So it really works.
SPEAKER_00Okay, that's amazing. I love that. So I know we've talked about sort of the younger kids and how parenting them, you know, I just brought up obviously my youngest. So as kids start to get older, like I'm bringing up my 11-year-old again. What are sort of the best ways to work with them on processing their emotions and and feelings?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so around 11 pre-adolescents, even into adolescence, where their kids are going from a concrete stage of reasoning to an abstract one. So perfect. So, like when they're younger, it's like, yes, it's all emotions and all that, but it's like I see a ball, I know it exists. And when they go into the abstract reasoning stage, it's like, well, is that a ball, or is that a sphere, or is that a this? And so they start to question. And that's where a lot of that angsty teenage stuff comes from because they're starting to question everything, and it's kind of like brilliant and frustrating, yeah, you know, and so I Think I think when it comes to teenagers who are struggling with their parents' divorce, you kind of have to give them some leeway and let them again still not put your stuff on them, asking lots of questions, but also really respecting the space. I believe that um it's probably the hardest, especially when you want to recouple with teenagers, because they do have their core memories are mom and dad together. You talked about your daughter being two. Her, she will have some, like they call it before there were words, like connections in her brain of like what that was like, but she won't have any cognitive memories of that. Teenagers and kids who get divorced when they're, you know, middle childhood and and older, they remember that. And so they're they're kind of trying to diffuse in their brain like, is this good? Is this bad? What does it mean? How does it mean how I relate to love or relationships or people? And so again, we assume a lot that what's going through their brains is all about us and how much we've damaged them because that's what's going through our brains, but it's just not, and so I think the bigger thing with teenagers, right? Thank God, we don't we aren't screwing them up as much as we think we are, totally. Um, but with teenagers especially, it's just not making an assumption that that you're their problem. I like getting teenagers into therapy, even if they're not expressing signs of like depression or like you know, like they meet need more mental health support, because it's just a great way to train the brain, like we talked about. And you'd be surprised. You you send your teenage kid to therapy when you're getting divorced and you do a parent check-in like once every six weeks, they can barely tell you anything. And they're like, Yeah, we don't talk about you, we just talk about school and this and that. And so, unless you're seeing signs and symptoms of, you know, severe anger or isolation, not eating, not sleeping, and your kids are teens, I really would try and nurture just a regular relationship. You know, same thing. You can answer questions more honestly with teenagers, which is really nice. So, like when they ask why do I have to go back and forth between both, instead of trying to elicit, you can be like, Well, because we both love you. Right. And we now have two homes, and you can even apologize. I'm sorry if you hate it, and how can I make it better for you?
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01You know, you can have that like you can have real conversations with your teenager kids, and that's fun. And it really is a nice way to bond and like strengthen your relationship. They can both hate it and it can be a source of closeness. I love that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's perfectly said. Well, thanks. You must do this for a living. I've done this before. Yeah. Uh so I know we talked a little bit about this before you know, when we were talking about what we wanted to talk about, and obviously you have so much wealth and of knowledge on this subject. Um and I think and it's interesting that, and I mean, I I know as my mom who was a juvenile judge dealing with a lot of these high conflict situations, what strategy was would you say around like really reducing the conflict and you know, protecting these kids?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so it it has to come from the parents. It really, really does. Like, I kind of describe that there's three things that impact how a child turns out. One is biology, like the their genetics, how they were made, like we can't control that. Um, but included in that is their temperament. Like temperament is decided by genetics, not by nurture. Then it's trauma, what happens to them in their waking life. Some people call that nurture, but again, you can nurture the crap out of your kids and they can still experience really big and small traumas that we don't have control over how um their brains and bodies adapt. And then the third is parenting and attachment, right? So all there's these three buckets. And so when it comes to relationships in general, parents have to learn how to manage their emotions. When I see conflict rise that stays, it's either they haven't done the work, like the therapy to like uncouple and like accept the fate. Um, and people who have done that who maintain in conflict, there's almost always substance abuse or significant mental health underlying because human the human condition does not choose to not be at rest. It expend it's too much energy to expend to to fight. It also kind of goes against a little bit your primal nature of protecting your children because you can consciously know I should not fight about who loves these kids more because it hurts them. And the only the only way to like calm that down and bring that down a notch is to emotional regulation. And it starts like do it in your body, I don't care if you go to yoga or meditate or somatic, whatever, men, women, who whomever, um, but learn how to like calm your reflexes because you can't approach your emotions if you're like balled up in your fists or constantly sweating. And then there's the whole like usually it's not two people who decide to get divorced, it's usually one. So one person has processed those feelings faster than the other one. And so the parent's such a good point. Well, yeah, so the parent who's deciding to be divorced needs to give time and space. Like you you have to, and you have to give room for them to have emotions that are crazy because you've already processed it. And the ones that can do that, I'm not saying you have to take emotional outbursts and abuse, but I'm saying like give a little more grace um for when they're feeling dysregulated and maybe even practice validating their feelings and let instead of taking them on. So, like if your ex is like, I didn't ask for this and I didn't want this, why are you making this so hard? You can you can regulate and really challenge yourself to regulate because it's so easy to be reactive towards somebody who you don't have to be accountable as much to anymore. Um, but to say something like take a deep breath and like model that and be like, I'm sorry, I'm not trying to make you feel this way. And it's I to me, it's like a pivotal responsibility of that person, as long as it's not because of abuse, right? Like if somebody is like, I'm getting out of here, you are not responsible for that person's feelings, it's more of like a courtesy of like I can check myself and realize that we are not, we have not processed this grief at the same pace. And and so therapy really helps with that. I think you know, there's lots of different like skills out there of like discernment counseling or conscious uncoupling and like kind of navigating your feelings for people who haven't been in therapy. I highly recommend it. Um, whether it's with your spouse you're decoupling from or um after you've already separated and kind of go back to it as co-parents just so like you can tie some loose ends. Um but yeah, I mean it's it's complicated, but you're gonna you're gonna fight in front of your kids sometimes. So give yourself some grace. Learn the art of an apology because it goes really far, um, especially in a relationship that used to be intimate, that now no longer has the same level of intimacy. And um really focus on what you can control. And if you can control part of it, then use those skills, use those steps, de-escalate when you can. That's in that's within your control. Kindness is within your control. Like you're not gonna be able to control a lot of what's happening, but the things that you can you have to like lean into.
SPEAKER_00That's such a great point. And I think too, like talking about divorce, like just because we got divorced uh does not discount from the fact in my in my experience and in my family, he's still a great dad to my girls. And I'm very thankful that he's their dad, he's very involved, he's a great dad, and quite frankly, I I joke with him that I'm like, I feel like we get along better now as co-parents than we did when we were married.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I think we and I think that there's just um more of a respect now than there was before, if that makes sense. I mean, I think we were, you know, we were both struggling in the marriage for different reasons. And I think now that we're out of it, I mean, we we already we got together when we were so young.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so now that we're out of it and we both have done our own work, I think there's more of a respect there that like, okay, this didn't work out, but like we still have these three kids that we need to parent together. And the best that we can come up as the best version of ourselves for these kids and how we show up, like the better they're gonna be doing, you know. Like we my daughter had a play, these are the flowers, by the way. She wanted she was like, Mom, you can have these flowers for your podcast. I was like, that was my 11-year-old. She was like, that's so really pretty. Yeah, but you know, we sat together at the play yesterday. I love it, and you know, and I and with you know, our other two kids, and I think that's been an important thing too, is like for me, is for us to show up still together and be sitting with each other and going to sporting events to your point and like being next to one another. So like when the kids do see it, like it doesn't feel like it's this doesn't feel it's yes, it's different, but at least they know like their parents are showing up for them together.
SPEAKER_01Which is so important. I actually had a tough lesson I learned just a couple months ago. I was actually with my dad and some of his friends, and they were asking me a little bit about this as they as they do, and there were a couple glasses of wine drink. And um I do not know what that's like. I mean neither. I would never drink, especially around you know, my parents and sophisticated fronts. Yeah, they're the ones serving it. Yeah, I love it. Um but I made an assumption. So when I talk about how easy it is to co-parent, I say it's it's easy. And what I mean to say is it's not easy at all. And I one of my one of my parents, my dad's friends was a little bit offended actually. And he had he I was grateful that he agreed to tell me that he was offended um because he had a horrible divorce and an ex he couldn't get along with. And so when I'm sitting here being like, it's easy, it's easy, it's easy. It minimizes how hard it actually is. But what is easy is making the choice to love your children more than you hate your ex.
SPEAKER_00I love okay, that's amazing. Oh, thanks. That's a great it's one of my favorites. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Love your kids more than you hate your ex. And I most people want that and feel that and believe in that, but that doesn't make it easy logistically. And you can oftentimes have one parent who believes that and the other one who can't grasp gris grasps, gris, grasp, grasp, grasp, grasp, grip, grip, grasp, I mean it grasps really it all works.
SPEAKER_00All of it. It all works.
SPEAKER_01Who can't like grasp it. Yes. Um, usually that's tied to, like I said, substance abuse or some underlying mental health stuff, um, where one parent can't get there. Um, but it is the easiest choice in the world. And that if I can make one small choice to sit next to my ex-husband or save a you even save a seat, um, even for my ex-husband and a new girlfriend, like if that one moment can create more peace and show my child that they are loved, that's an easy choice to make. Even if it's hard. Right.
SPEAKER_00Such a good point.
SPEAKER_01And because it is hard. It is hard. You know, you're you're divorced from this person for a reason. Because if you really wanted to spend that much time with them and loved them that much, you'd just stay married. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00You know, but they're still like they're, you know, they're for the most I mean, in my situation, and I know your situation, like, they're not bad people.
SPEAKER_01Not at all.
SPEAKER_00They're good people and they're good dads, and it just it didn't work out, and and that's okay. And I think you know, I would I I I joke about this, but it's like it's so easy to get married. It is in a way, like you just you can just go to the courthouse, you can just you know I bet your mom's done tons of weddings.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yeah, totally it's like my dad's retirement thing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's so hard to get divorced.
SPEAKER_01It is.
SPEAKER_00And for a variety of reasons. I mean, legally, the I mean the amount of money it takes to lawyers on both sides. I mean, even if there's not a big you know, you know, we always joke about or not joke, we always talk about like the pie, right? Like, and you know, you it gets cut in the middle and each person gets their their half. Even if it there's not a big pie to be had, it's there's still it's a big expense, financial expense to get divorced.
SPEAKER_01I think a lot of people don't realize too, like I've had to point this out to some friends and family who get divorced, like the sacrifice you have to make financially, like you are when you're married, you're functioning as one set of finances, one house. When you divide that, like a family, let's say, let's say a married couple has two or three kids and they make 250 grand a year. That's comfortable. They can get by. I mean, it's not the lap of luxury, but it's comfortable. You break that off into two different households, and you're almost at the federal poverty level for expenses and your income and all that kind of stuff. And so, um, financial insecurity is a huge piece in all of that, and your ability to get along, and just it's like financial security is tied to like physic like fight or flight, right? And so, like, you really do have to there's a lot, there's just a lot you have to be conscious of all the time, and it really does have to be a choice, just like you know, like getting married is can be a choice on a woman and it's really easy. Sorry, I keep thinking about the have you seen some of these memes out there about student loans? Like, I can sign my life away at 18 years old for $300,000. Nobody tells you you have to pay it back. Totally thought of when you said that. I'm like, you can literally like just get married. Yes. And like to untangle that is like, wait, what did I what what what I have to pay this back? Yep, you do. Why did you let me have this responsibility? You should have told me no. Totally, you know, but it is it is such a like it's a hard web to untangle. And um, I don't know. I mean, it kind of makes me think about like I wish there was more, you know, like sometimes in the church people will try and say like you have to do this many c premarital counseling sessions. Um, I know that you get a discount in the state of Minnesota on your marriage license if you can prove you did like 10 sessions of premarital counseling. How much is a marriage license? I don't know. It's like $50. Yeah. So what you get like $5 off? I think you get it for like $10 or $12. I like have no idea. I just know there's a discount if you like have premarital counseling.
SPEAKER_00That's hilarious.
SPEAKER_01I know, but like doesn't it make you feel like also like good?
SPEAKER_00Like it should be. I would be curious if people did premarital counseling, how many actually wouldn't get married?
SPEAKER_01It's a lot. I've done it. I've done it with so many with lots of couples, or they wait.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, like there's pros and cons, and I know we're getting kind of off off topic, but I think listeners would appreciate it anyways. Like people are getting married later and having a little more consciousness around it. I sometimes think it's because we're the kids of divorced parent generation. Um, but just like we're also like neuroscience, like our prefrontal cortex, like the stuff that's like sound decision making, is not really developed until you're like 30. You know, and I'm not saying it's wrong. I also got married young and I had I was done having children at 27. And in this day and age, that is just like you know, like would did I grow up in a rural community on a farm, like landlocked away from technology, like just like people who don't know any better. Um, and I still chose that. Um, but I didn't know what I was doing. And so like you would never, you would never not like I would never take it away. Right, a thousand percent. Because you love your children and the life experience. Like, you know, like I believe in that kind of like it's your fated journey. Like you can't really be mad, you have to just find ways to accept it, um, even though it's turbulent and right filled with joys and sorrows. But um, it makes me just think about like, I wish there was more that we could do to help people prevent. Like, we know prevention is better than intervention. Like, I'm better off stopping my kids from using drugs than trying to intervene when they are on them. That is a harder journey. Right. So, like, how could we do that for more people who get divorced?
SPEAKER_00I don't we gotta talk side on this because I I we need to.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00There's something there. There is something there. I think too, uh, to your point about people getting married later in life, which I think is so great. I think I don't know if you felt this because I know we're almost the same exact age. Uh I felt like there was almost this like pressure where it was like, if you want to have kids, your biological clock is ticking and you don't want to be over 35 and having kids because then it's like geriatric or something.
SPEAKER_02Like literally.
SPEAKER_00Which is like crazy to me.
SPEAKER_02I know.
SPEAKER_00And then you know, I have my brother on the other end who was like, I am not getting married till I'm at least 30. And like it was so normal. And I mean, he didn't. And his wife is wonderful, they have two little boys, and uh, but it was so normal for him to feel that way. But like in my brain, at you know, 25 when I got married, it was like, oh, I I gotta, you know, it's like you feel like you have these have to hit these milestones, like, all right, I gotta get married, we have to find a house, then we have to have kids, and if we're gonna have three, then we have you know, like it's you feel like you have all this pressure, and then all of a sudden I'm sitting here, and you know, I'm gonna be 39 in a couple weeks, and I'm like, shit, I feel like I've lived like a fucking lifetime. You know what I mean? Like, I've been married, I've you know, I have three kids, I'm now divorced, I'm in a new house, I have a new partner, and I'm like, I haven't even scratched 40 yet.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00So it's like I I like the idea of people maybe like waiting a little bit and just kind of finding yourself a little bit more.
SPEAKER_01I think I think that's what people are learning. I do think that like biological clock thing is so like you like me, we have parents with similar professions. Yes, and I wouldn't even put I wouldn't say it was pressure put on by them. No, but like as a high achieving young woman, you we put that on ourselves. Absolutely, like because this is what we've idealized is what success looks like, and so some of it's societal, some of it is like growing up with parents who um want the best things for you, and you can't help but internalize that you want the best things for yourself. And if you've decided that the best things for yourself are the white picket fence and to be married and to not have a geriatric pregnancy, because that's not sexy, right?
SPEAKER_00Like that term, I'm like, can we change that word? I mean, we can ask.
SPEAKER_01I don't think you and I being outside the medical community are gonna throw much of it. It's just like the it's like the worst term. Yeah, no, it is like you're 35. Like, don't call me geriatric. Yes, let me earn those strikes.
SPEAKER_00Yes, seriously. Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_01I know, and men don't have that same pressure. No, they just biologically they don't. I mean, you can a man can make a baby until the day they die. And we just cannot.
SPEAKER_00No, no. So yeah, I think I mean, and and I think it's interesting too. I was just reading an article about how they're saying the gray divorce, grey gray hair divorce, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, for people when like our empty nesters and stuff.
SPEAKER_00Yes, how that's becoming like so increasingly popular.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, I get it. I get it. Like I love my husband and we are soulmates and meant to be together forever. But like on the hard days where you just don't want to deal somebody else's shit, like that is appealing. And if you don't have kids to do all that, then you're just like, wow, I don't have kids in my house anymore, and I could spend my time doing whatever the fuck I want at my own leisure. Yes. Okay, that kind of sounds great. Totally. But I think that even to me comes from again this like how many years of like vacuum-sized pressure are we putting on people that finally they get to a place where they like don't have capacity to even entertain the difficulty of a relationship anymore.
SPEAKER_00Well, and I feel like too, like I'm sure there's some people who are like, all right, I just have to get through till little Tommy goes off to college. So I have, you know, three more years I can just toughen it out. And then and I would imagine, too, for kids who are going off to college and then all of a sudden having parents getting divorced, I can imagine that would be very traumatic.
SPEAKER_01It's like jarring, like all of a sudden my whole childhood is behind me, and I don't get to go back to my childhood home and college and new friends and a new community, and now my parents aren't even together.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and now I'm coming home from you know, Chris for Christmas vacation or holiday vacation, and like w which house?
SPEAKER_01What's home?
SPEAKER_00What house do I go to? And where, you know, like so I I think you know, it it's two things, right? It's like, yeah, great, that's great, like uh for them too, but it it it is interesting where that I'm hoping as more people, as as divorce kind of doesn't have such a bad connotation anymore where you don't feel like you have to like go around with the scarlet letter and be like, oh no, I'm divorced.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00You know, where because then I'm hoping like obviously there's the people who are married and are amazing and have wonderful marriages and last forever, and those people are like clearly have figured it out. But I hope the people who feel like if they if if they feel like they know they want to get divorced, that maybe just grinning and bearing it until the kids go off to school is probably not the best thing for anyone.
SPEAKER_01I don't think so. And I I wanna believe that people don't make that choice lightly. Like there's too much research that says that you don't have to do that. I I hope it's because it's a financial reason or you know, like they just can't, or whatever, you know. But I I see less and less people kind of what is it, gritten Barrett? Grit and Barreter.
SPEAKER_00Grin and bear grin and bear it. Grin? I don't know. Grin and it. That would make sense, like a smile.
SPEAKER_01Like a smile.
SPEAKER_00Grin and bear it.
SPEAKER_01Grin and bear it.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01Watch, we're gonna have that totally wrong. And then we have to look at it. I have no idea. Sounds right. It sounds right. It sounds really smart. So what's the goal? Um, but I mean, I I don't know. I think the human emotions are so complex, and I you're right. I do think divorce is destigmatized. And at the same time, I like keep going back to like I don't owe anybody any explanation. You know what I mean? Like, and I wish more people had that confidence. And it took me a while to get there. Like, and I even think about moments like I met you and I was like five kids together, blended family. No problem. I could already feel the energy was good. Like this is somebody in my community. Yes. But when the Delta agent asked me if these are all five of my kids, I was like, yes. Yes, they are. Four boys and a daughter. I am blessed. Because I'm like, I don't owe you any explanation for who I'm traveling with, why we have different last names. As far as you know, we just went every other with our last name. You know what I mean? Exactly. And I think if more people had that like belief in themselves and like just owned who they are and and and confidence. So I think it comes from that. I think it comes from like low self-esteem, lack of self-confidence. Like I can't make these decisions, I'm afraid of being judged.
SPEAKER_00Um, but just and those are real. I mean, I felt all of those things while I was getting divorced. I felt them all.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I think it was through like doing my own work and kind of dealing with my own shit to be like, I just can't care, you know. I mean, I went back to my maiden name after I got divorced. And I remember the same thing. Why is it always the Delta agent?
SPEAKER_02Well, I don't know.
SPEAKER_00And she's like, are these your kids? I'm like, yes, that these are in fact my children. She's like, oh, well, it's different last names. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, it is.
SPEAKER_01I know.
SPEAKER_00And it's so funny. It's like, you know, no, I'm just, I just have three like kids, I'm choosing to fly with three children that are not mine.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I am I'm trafficking them. And I'm like, could you imagine if you said that? Oh, yeah, they're not mine. I just picked them up. Yeah. I was told I got shipping orders.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, she'd probably be like, what is wrong with you? And for me, my mom never changed. She always had a different last name than me. You know, she was a judge. She, I think she, I mean, my dad was an attorney, so I'm sure, you know, there's obviously it's conflict of interest. He could never go in front of her. But I think like she just never did. So for me, it was very normal growing up that my mom had a different last name than us. And I never really thought it was an issue at all. So it's just funny when you get into those situations, and I'm like, oh wait, is that like a is that like a we're worried about that? Like, yeah, I mean it is a thing.
SPEAKER_01And you know, like plug for Delta, they are the best arrow. Love you very much. Everyone is so kind, except for that one lady that one time. But still, but they're just also trying to do their job. It's like this two, it's like this both and like I I both don't owe you my life story, and I know I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt that what you're asking me or like trying to make or like the feeling I'm having of like shame or guilt, or like, am I doing something wrong? Yeah, um, is just you trying to do your job. And that is like when I think of the word grace, that is what I think of. Like when you want to give somebody grace, it is like reflexively believing that other people are not intending whatever ill feeling you are experiencing.
SPEAKER_00I love that because I feel like if everyone could be like that, the world would be a way less fucked up place. Um correct and happier, and happier, and just all the things, all the things, yeah. I traveling with children is it sure is special. I we have clear.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And every time I get so stressed out when they're like, So how old are you? Who is this person to you? And I'm like, I'm your mom. Remember, I'm your mom, mom, right? But like it is, it is such a the whole traveling with children. I mean, that is Oh my god, it's a lot.
SPEAKER_01So sometimes because we have kids in different schools, like me and my husband will go down to the beach house and we'll take like three kids on one spring break, and it'll be a mix of them. And then like my ex-husband will fly down the other kids, not even mine. So, like, we're talking like my ex-husband will fly down kids with with my new husband's last name, and they just answer, like, well, that's my stepdad's I'm my stepbrother's dad. And no one has ever questioned this, which is kind of amazing. Yeah, but like these kids, the kids just have learned, especially in front of TSA, like just be honest. Yeah, yeah. You know, most all the kids refer to me as like they're like I'm their mom. Yeah. Even if they don't call me mom. And so they'll ask me, like, what do I call you? I'm like, I'm your stepmom, you can call me that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because that is how I'm experienced legally and in TSA, you know, we don't we don't fuck around and pretend we're aliens and that good stuff. No, no, no, like I did as a child. Yeah. My dad was like, swear to God, he didn't ever ever hit us, but I think he wanted to that one time. And I was like, I'm an alien. Mortified once I found out what that meant and what I almost did to us re-entering the country.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Oh, now it all I thought you meant like an alien, like a UFO.
SPEAKER_01Like a like a four, like I saw on a sign that it was like it like back when it said like citizens and aliens. And so like we were at the TSA counter, I think coming back from like Israel or something, like somewhere in the Middle East or Europe. And they go through all the passports, and I just like pop up there and I'm like, I'm an alien. My dad was like, She is not, she is a United States citizen. This is her passport.
SPEAKER_00He looked at me like with like daggers in the literally, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I have told told my children we just don't fuck around with TSA. No, no. If we want to keep traveling, we don't fuck around with TSA.
SPEAKER_00Gosh, isn't that the truth? Yeah, it's yeah, traveling. That's also amazing that your ex-husband would travel like with your two stepkids that aren't his biological kids.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You got it figured out.
SPEAKER_01I mean, we do. I it takes three willing participants, yes, you know, and that's not easy. I like to think that it's somewhat my profession. Yes. That helps a little bit. Absolutely. But again, temperament parenting trauma. Like I can only do so much as a therapist at this day and age, but um, I do feel lucky. And I feel like even though it it it is easy, it still takes us hard work.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Well, and talking about a little bit of that, uh, blended families. I know we haven't we've talked about this a little bit, but like how, because I mean you seem like you kind of have it figured out. What do you recommend when you're getting into a new relationship? Like, how is the best, what's the best way to introduce the kids to that new person?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so there's kind of this unwritten rule, and assuming that parents can somewhat co-parent, even if they haven't like smoothed out all their big feelings, should always tell the other parent first. It's courtesy, the shock and awesome. There's no worse feeling than uh for a kid when all of a sudden mom says, Hey, what'd you do this week? And they're like, My dad's new girlfriend. And now she's immediately just jarred, even if she's okay with it, and the kids feel that. So then they feel like they've done something wrong. So I it you should. You should share it with the other parent, even if you guys loathe each other, so that at least it's not the kid who's absorbing the feeling off feeling. Um, and then I think you know, I am a big believer of like riding that balance of parent in charge, kid choice. So like I would ask a kid, like, hey, I want you to know that I've been seeing somebody and be kind of open about that. They don't have to like it. They they don't, but you have to still be there for them. And I I don't believe that parents should hide a lot from kids, or the stuff you should hide from kids is truly the stuff they don't have the capacity to understand, like taxes, and you you know, like until it matters, right? Right, right. Um, but parents in the past have been so secretive about things, and I think if uh kids know you're divorced and know how relationships work in general, you can tell them, yes, I'm going on a date, or I've been seeing this person, whatever. Um, but once you've decided this is a person who's gonna be more permanent in your life, um, going to the kids and saying, I I would like you to meet this person, but there's no pressure here. Are you would you be okay with it? And then if they say no, you preface with like, I can't promise that I'm gonna let you not be okay with it forever, but for today I'm gonna give you that choice.
SPEAKER_00I love that.
SPEAKER_01So, like you you let them know that for today, if they're not comfortable, that's okay, but this is not gonna be a choice they get to make indefinitely. Um, and that at some point, you know, if that person's gonna be a permanent figure, that they're gonna meet them and that they don't have to like it. And you prepare your partner, especially if they don't have kids, like you don't have to like it. It can be a little awkward. Um, but again, tra training your kids to recognize like life is full of discomfort and it is very awkward. And the better you can be about that and checking in with your body and your feelings of like how is this making me feel and processing, you are you are literally teeing your kids up for success in their adult lives. Like, I love that life is awkward and uncomfortable.
SPEAKER_00I love that. Well, and it was interesting. I my ex and I both agreed on this. We actually have in our divorce decree that they have to be dating that person for six months, and the other person, so me or my ex has the opportunity to meet that person before the kids do.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00And so with my partner now, my ex and him sat down, had lunch, and sort of talked it kind of through, and you know, my partner doesn't have kids, and so but he's great with mine, but also understands that like they have an amazing dad. Uh and so it's a good we have like a good balance there. My ex has not has not yet I'm I'm I'm sure he's dating. He's great guy, good looking guy, but there hasn't been anyone that he's brought to me yet. Um But I I I like that idea of and that's why I I like that idea of having an end of the divorce decree, and you don't always need to have it, but I think the idea to your point of like giving that other person a heads up, it just feels better.
SPEAKER_01Well, and the meeting face to face is setting clear expectations with your new partner, like this person's involved. Right. And it's almost like before we're gonna bring kids in and get too serious, like if you guys can't even check your egos to have one conversation, then you have to make the hard choice, which is I can't be with you. Right. You know, and it is hard, and you do have to navigate those feelings. Like at the end of the day, you still had three children with somebody else that you're not gonna have with your new partner. Right. Um, and that just brings up a lot, right? And so you have to be willing to create space for your new partner and the love that you have for them in your life and those feelings being real, with also still like this person is not going away. No, no, like they are they are like when they call me, like like I have a rule in my house. If my ex calls me and he has my children, I don't care if I'm talking on the other line with my husband, I will answer the call. Yes. Because he is the father of my children. Absolutely. And if he's calling me in the middle of the day, it could be about the baseball spec schedule or it could be because my kid's hurt. Right. Or he needs my help or whatever. Like you have to create that sense of community. And that was difficult at first because you know, new husband can't help but feel like like you're hanging up on me to answer his call. And I'm like, you know, but it it's so it's it's training that it's like, oh wait, I'm not, you know, that's grace. Yes, wait a minute. You know, he hangs up the phone when he knows I'm clicking over on the other line and he's like, oh, that felt like crap, but wait, right, I know that the intention behind that and that she set the act the um explanation for how this was gonna go, and it just helps like de-escalate.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I love that you put that in your decree.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, uh it's it's worked out so far. I mean, I would love him to maybe as met someone. I mean, I you know, it's it's so funny. I have friends who are divorced and they'll be like, oh, I like can't even imagine my ex dating again, or like, oh, that would be like so awful and so weird, and like oh, I just I would not like that. And I kind of think to myself, I'm like, I just want him to be happy. And so, like, if he finds someone that makes him happy who is respectful, who's kind, who's gonna be who passes the ego test, yeah. Who passes the ego test, who's gonna be a good, a positive person in my girls' lives.
SPEAKER_01Like, what I don't want him just to be like sitting being alone the rest of like that's that's not how you want to model healthy relationships for your kids. No, like you have daughters, so they're more likely to model their future relationship after you. I have sons. So if my ex-husband is not like finding happiness in a relationship, the the likelihood of that being how my kids navigate adult relationships is really strong. It's same gendered parent, right? Just they they experience a role slightly different, and so you of course you should always want that person. Like it's i if you truly choose your children, then you should want nothing but wonderful things for your ex. Like nothing but wonderful because it's it your kids are half them, you know, even if even if they're really more like a quarter and 75, right? Like they they identify as being half them, at least biologically, and so you want to make sure that that half of who they resonate with is nurtured.
SPEAKER_00And I think to that point too, and I love that quote if you if you're choosing your kids, you want your ex to be happy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And because I think people, especially when you're if it especially like if it was a little bit of a difficult divorce, and then you're getting through it, I think it's so easy to just be like, I hate that person. I want nothing but bad for them. I, you know, and you want it to be toxic, but it's like that's the worst thing you can do for your kids. Like you should want, you should want good things for your ex because that's only gonna benefit your kids.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. And frankly, people are like, well, there's nowhere else in my life I have to do this. I'm like, everywhere else in your life you have to do this. You could hate your boss. Do you get to walk into a meeting and be like a total dick? No, you lose your job. Right. Like understanding that your actions and how you communicate with others is going to directly have a negative or positive effect. But instead, when it's your ex, now it's not just a positive and or negative effect on you, it's also your children. Would you be no matter how much you hate your boss, if it was bring your daughter to work day or bring your kid to work day, would you show up and bitch out your boss and want that to be the role model you are for your child? Like it's no different. So it's like everywhere in your life you have to maintain boundaries and respect for people. Um, and for some reason it just gets lost in this, you know, and some people are just really wounded. Whether it's like a loveless marriage, maybe it was an addiction, maybe it was um um cheating. What's the fancy word for that? I was gonna say adultery, but that's biblical. Infidelity. That's the one I was looking for. I was like, look, adulterer. That is so scarlet letters. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and there's a lot of wounding there. And think about all the other parts of your life where there's a lot of wounding where you can't be a dick. Like a lot, namely in the workplace. That's why there's so many authors out there, like Bill Eddy, who created a book. It's called Biff, and it stands for brief, informative, friendly, and firm. And it's literally for co-parenting communication. Like if you can't be yourself and kind and generous and graceful, then be brief, informative, friendly, and firm.
SPEAKER_00I love that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, it's it's like a it's like a tech, like a hallmark of divorcing parents. So if you talk to other people and they want a book because they're they can't figure out the communication, it is the gold standard. It's like what a judge would expect you to do, lawyers, any sort of therapists, like there's a protocol and it is exactly how you would show up at work with a coworker or a boss that you really can't stand.
SPEAKER_00And it shouldn't be, I mean, it's if anything, and when you put it into those kind of the standards of that, it's like you these are your kids, like these are the most important people in your entire life. And so if you know, and what you're talking about, it's like the research is out there, like if you are not getting along with your ex, even if how hard it is, if it's this toxic thing, like that is gonna affect the kids no matter what.
SPEAKER_01No matter what. I can't believe how many people I've gone or done therapy with. I'm sure.
SPEAKER_00I can't even imagine.
SPEAKER_01Well, well, they come in there and they're like, well, it's not like this is hurting the kids. And I'm like, you are insane. Like, or at least that's what my inner thoughts are like. I'm like, okay, well, let's educate. Yeah, like come on. I'm like, What are you doing? I'm firing you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but like you're that's what I'm thinking. And you need to remember, so like we have um, you know how like we have these things called mirror neurons. You cry, I cry. The connection is that like when I yawn, someone else yawns. Yes, exactly. Like we we have this innate in empathy with our biological family members, it's like 10,000 times stronger. And it's not just always like a physical expression of feelings. Like if you are a parent, like let's say you show up at a baseball game and the kid's there with dad and your mom, and you you walk past them and you're just rude. Hi, baby.
SPEAKER_00This is Daisy. She must like you because she never really comes on the show.
SPEAKER_01Hi, Daisy. Thanks for joining us. It's your friend of dogs. It's your good energy. You knew she was good energy, that's why. Yeah, you're so fluffy. Um the point is, is like when when when one parent shows up at the baseball game and doesn't even say hi, like a kid feels that like just anger and meanness, and like but like I always hear kids be like, but like why do they act like that? Because they can feel it. Like empathy is so much more than, like I said, the physical expression of like tears or you know, anger. Like if you they they can feel what you're feeling without having to see it. And so even if like harboring that anger, like you have to actually check yourself. And a lot of kids will describe because home two parent homes can be so polarizing. Like I used to have on trend transition days when my stepkids would come home, they were just going through a lot, like you could just kind of feel like they were wearing a heaviness. And we would literally use we used to want to just like engage as a family that night and realize that we were forcing like a square peg through a round hole because the kids were just like needed to shed a skin a little bit. Yes. And um, our daughter actually decided like on transition days she'd shower, like just to literally like a reset. And I'm like, how incredible for your mental health. Yes. And at like nine years old, yeah, to establish like I just need to get into this new environment, this new space. And so doing rituals with your kids to kind of help wash off some of the polarizing differences between houses, especially even with people who get along, can be so impactful for them and just good for their mental health. Could you imagine if your daughters knew when they were 25 and they went on a bad date or just had the ick or something, if they knew to like self-regulate by like, I just need like some time. Yes. Or like I'm gonna take a shower to try and like wipe the ick away from you. Yes, like such a healthy skill. So healthy. Yeah, I love that. And we can do that like with them now.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. We don't need to wait.
SPEAKER_01No, I think sometimes, again, I'm gonna say sometimes divorced parents. We have to be so mindful of some of these things that sometimes I think it makes us even better parents. You know, like the kids go through this journey of difficulty or change um at whatever age they are, and and good parents are who are in tune with their kids are really nurturing skills that will help them for the rest of their life.
SPEAKER_00And I think too, you know, it's I had someone come on talking about raising resilient kids. Our kids are seeing they're going through things that are difficult and they're dealing with adversity by having parents who are getting divorced, and and I think if done correctly, that's only gonna help them in the long run.
SPEAKER_01I agree. I agree totally.
SPEAKER_00Well, anything else in closing?
SPEAKER_01Oh wow, we could talk about so many things because I think we hit a bunch of beautiful notes on the stuff we already did.
SPEAKER_00Well, you were absolutely amazing. I seriously learned, I can't wait to like rewatch this because I personally learned so much uh from this episode. And obviously, being a divorced parent, I always say like there's no there's no like easy handbook how to do it, right? We're all trying to figure it out, but I feel like you have such a great grasp on it. Uh, and so I really appreciate your wise words, and I know our listeners are are gonna be uh very, you know, not feel very like there's a lot of great knowledge here. So good.
SPEAKER_01Well, thanks for having me on. Yes, love talking to you.
SPEAKER_00Yes, anytime come back, please. I will. We love it, all right.
SPEAKER_01Love it. It smells really good in here.
SPEAKER_00Oh good, thank you. I didn't pay her to say that. No, it just really smells delightful. Oh I love God, I'm so glad. I'm so glad you weren't here like 10 minutes ago. Oh god.
SPEAKER_01An hour ago. Or an hour, yeah, an hour ago at this point. Um so fun, so easy. Yeah, well, thank you.