Gaslighting: What It Is and What It Isn’t

What if the problem isn’t just what’s happening in your relationships, but how those relationships are shaping your sense of reality? In this episode of Lumen, hosts Christopher Mooney, LCSW and Kenyon Phillips, LMSW break down one of the most overused and misunderstood terms in modern mental health language: gaslighting. Drawing from clinical experience and real-world dynamics, they explore how gaslighting is not a single disagreement or difference in memory, but a sustained pattern of manipulation designed to erode your trust in your own perception, judgment, and reality. Christopher and Kenyon unpack why the term has exploded culturally—highlighting both the relief it has given survivors and the confusion created by its overuse—while offering a clear, grounded definition that separates true gaslighting from everyday conflict, defensiveness, lying, or miscommunication. The conversation delves into the lived experience of gaslighting—from chronic self-doubt and emotional fog to the subtle ways people begin shrinking, second-guessing, and outsourcing their reality to someone else. It also examines where gaslighting shows up most often, including romantic relationships, families, workplaces, and even within oneself through patterns of self-invalidation. Most importantly, this episode offers practical, compassionate guidance for recognizing patterns, re-anchoring your reality, testing relational safety, and making decisions that support your emotional well-being—all while empowering you to reclaim your internal authority. 

To book a free consultation with Christopher, Kenyon, or the other providers at Lumen Therapy Collective, visit lumentherapycollective.com. 

Follow Lumen on Instagram: @lumen_therapy_collective

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Lumen is for educational and informational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapy, diagnosis, or treatment. If you’re experiencing a mental health crisis, please contact local emergency services or a trusted mental health professional.

Transcript

Tempo: 120.0

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Lumen, a podcast that sheds light on mental health, relationships, and what it means to be human. I'm Christopher Mooney, LCSW.

SPEAKER_00 0:08

And I'm Kenyon Phillips, LMSW. Each episode we unpack psychological patterns that affect our relationships. No jargon, no judgment.

SPEAKER_01 0:16

Just thoughtful conversations to help you understand yourself and others a little more clearly. Kenyon, today we want to talk about gaslighting. Yes. Another widely overused psychological term. And misunderstood term. And misunderstood.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

So let's set the scene. Gaslighting is usually applied to like a slow burn dynamic. So we're talking about a situation with usually it's like a long-term relationship. It can be with a partner, it can be with a boss or a supervisor, it can be with a parent. It can even be with a friend or sort of a frenemy. You start hearing a lot of lines that challenge your experience, your reality of something that happened. Lines like, oh, that never happened.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

Or you're too sensitive. Nobody else would take it that way. What's your problem? Yeah. You're remembering, oh, you're just remembering it wrong. And so over time. We, if we're the person who's being targeted with those kinds of comments, uh, we we we move from like, oh wait, that wasn't okay, and saying something and speaking up and defending ourselves to the person. We move from that place to a place of maybe I am crazy.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

Oh. Like really questioning our own reality.

SPEAKER_00 1:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe my memory really is the problem. Maybe I shouldn't trust myself or my reactions. That's the red flag of gaslighting that we're talking about today. It's not a simple argument, it's not a little difference in memory. It's really a slow, very deliberate, very malicious bending of someone's sense of reality and trust in themselves. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

This this kind of it's it's a real, it sounds like a real dark manipulation.

SPEAKER_00 2:08

Yeah. So it's, you know, I I hesitate to use the word evil when we're talking about human behavior. Sure. But I mean, this is up there. This is up there with their evil evil behavior, right? Yeah. This is rough, like molesting kids. It's bad.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

It's it's it's a bad one. So I wanna I wanna talk a little bit about maybe where the term gaslighting came from because it it kind of explains that it the the I think the true kind of like meaning. A lot of people don't know the origin of the word, yeah. So it was it was actually from uh from a 1938 uh British play called Gaslight.

SPEAKER_02 2:41

Right.

SPEAKER_01 2:42

And and then more famously, that play was made into a movie. Made into the movie from the 40s. In the 40s, yeah, 1944. It was a movie starring Ingrid Bergman. Nice. And in this movie, in in the story, this husband manipulates his wife into doubting her sanity so that he can cover up all his crimes. So, like that kind of evil behavior we were talking about. And this included literally dimming the gas-powered lights in their home and then denying that the lights had ever changed when she noticed it. And over time, she just she really started to believe that like that there was something wrong with her. And psychologists and public adopted that term then, gaslighting, as a term for for the specific pattern of of manipulation, of psychological manipulation that where you make someone question their perceptions, memory, or reality. Right, right, right. And then the first kind of appeared in print in the 60s, and since then, and and really where it became widely used was in the 2010s, like the last couple of years, then not too long ago. Yeah, I think we started to hear hear it a lot during like the the the teens, and then and then I think it's just it's just continued. And I think you and I probably hear this all the time in in sessions and outside of sessions, even.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

Definitely, definitely, definitely hear it on the TikTok. On the TikTok, yeah. But I mean there's there's an upside to it that it was I mean like when these terms are out there in the public consciousness, there I mean the upside is that survivors of actual gaslighting finally have a language for you know, they they have a term they have for this very, very, very confusing, you know, way type of psychological abuse.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Yeah. Which we had talked about before, right? When we talked last time about trauma and we've talked about boundaries before, but when we talk about trauma, I think that was like the the word trauma or post-traumatic stress disorder, when we start looking at the diagnoses that go along with it, right?

SPEAKER_00 4:48

That gives people who have truly experienced uh overwhelm, like the trauma as like where your nervous system can't um process what's happening to you.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

Right. That gives them a it gives them a word, a definition, something to identify and say this is the thing that's happened when it's overused, much like the term gaslighting, because this is this is a real phenomenon. This is something people do this. That's right. This is something that happens. This is something that happens, you know, in in a lot of relationships and a lot of especially we see in a lot of domestic abuse relationships and and where where things are happening, but when it becomes overused, the the word loses its value. And the people that are truly experiencing it, it almost contributes even more to them questioning themselves, like, oh, am I really, is this really bad? Is this thing that I'm I'm kind of experiencing in my relationship actually that toxic?

SPEAKER_00 5:41

Right. It'll yeah, it can prompt people to sort of dismiss whatever the issue is.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

And it also like for us to just sort of blanket any form of denial, defensiveness, or memory difference, or lying as gaslighting is severely problematic.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Yeah. I think in and as you were saying, the reason gaslighting that term stuck, I think is it was just it was a very simple kind of word for a very confusing experience. You know, that and that that because when we think about psychological abuse and and creating that self-doubt for somebody, that is that is a more complex version of abuse. Right. And I think it it finally gave somebody a word they could hang on to.

SPEAKER_02 6:26

Right.

SPEAKER_01 6:27

Which is great. People felt overall less alone and they could name what was happening. But the the problem is it's you know, it it kind of created defensiveness and and I think could kind of create this this dynamic with the the other person of you don't admit you're wrong, you know, you're gaslighting me. Instead of saying you're wrong, right, you know, it's like, well, you're gaslighting me, you're doing this thing instead of just accepting accountability.

SPEAKER_00 6:56

Right, right, right, right, right.

unknown 6:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:58

And just to call somebody out on lying, I feel like, you know, people don't do that as much ever since the you know, gaslighting became such a popular term. And there's a danger in that too, because it's not clear. Right. It's not what does the term actually mean?

SPEAKER_01 7:15

So the term gaslighting, it it it's a sustained, it's a sustained pattern of behavior that's meant to erode like psychologically, it's a sustained pattern of behavior meant to erode your trust in your own perception. Right. And so that you start relying on the other person to tell you what's real.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

So I just want to say that again. Gaslighting is a sustained pattern of behavior meant to erode your trust in your own perception, memory, and judgment, so that you start relying on the other person to tell you what's real.

SPEAKER_00 7:49

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

And that is that is such a deep manipulation of trying to to create a sense of dependence. Well, it's a little like codependency, right?

SPEAKER_00 8:00

Where it is, yeah. Codependency in in the sense of, you know, I the whatever kind of a day you're having, that's the kind of day I'm gonna have. I'm going to allow my reality and my experience to be manipulated and dictated really by whatever your reality and experience are.

SPEAKER_01 8:18

Yeah. The difference is if if I exploit that, yeah, that's gaslighting.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

So if I know, if I've if I've created that dynamic and I and I'm aware of it, that's that is the difference between just say when we talk about codependency. We and that's another good term to bring up and you know, in the way it's used and applied in in in treatment world. But if it's this is has a more malicious and and conscious kind of behavior to it.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

Right. No, for sure. And so it's it's a it's a pattern. It's not an incident. It doesn't happen once. It has to happen over time again and again. And because it's a pattern, that's how we move from like we we start doubting ourselves more, looking to the other person more, the person who's gaslighting us more to dictate our reality. Right. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

Well, because we have that doubt. So uh the more we doubt ourselves, then we we we just we're gonna sit there kind of almost frozen, right? Like, what do I do? What do I do? And so you just So we rely on the other person. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 9:21

Who's doing the gaslighting?

SPEAKER_01 9:23

Which leads to power and control. I mean, that that is what gaslighting is one person seeking power and control over a relationship or a system. Right. And we could see we could see it politically, we see this every day. We have the president who goes out there and says, I didn't say that.

SPEAKER_00 9:41

Right.

SPEAKER_01 9:42

You know, no, that's being manipulated. That's fake news. That's that's actually that is gaslighting. That is manipulation with the intent to mislead uh other people. And make you doubt yourself. And make you doubt yourself. Yeah, make you doubt, or make you doubt the system. And then you rely on in that case, the president mortar. The tr the truth, right? Or or the version of the truth.

SPEAKER_00 10:05

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

So so is that that's how it works, like as for an example, as a system, right? We it it creates doubt where we where we have to where we doubt the system, we we we don't believe what the system's doing. Right. And then we have to rely on this person who has malicious intent, very malicious intent. The the way it works in a relationship is is like we were saying, like, oh, I'm going to, if I know that there are, if I can create doubt for you in in anything that we're talking about in our relationship, or if there's just a disagreement in the home, then it it makes you more reliant on me. I never told you about that. I you know, I didn't say that about like you were or I told you I did tell you to do this. I told you you were supposed to pay that bill. Why didn't you why didn't you pay the electric bill? It could be as simple as as that. And that's that's the the the really toxic part of that is gaslighting can be used at such a low, like kind of like covert level that people don't even realize it's happening. It's not just about disagreements though. No, right.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

Well, it's no, I mean it's like you can ex you can expand it to all lying with the goal of making you stop trusting yourself.

SPEAKER_01 11:21

Right.

SPEAKER_00 11:22

So anything under that sort of umbrella, which can be pretty broad. Yeah. I keep thinking about I was a huge Rawl Dahl fan as a kid. And there's this book, lesser-known book, The Twits. Yes. Do you remember that? I love that book. I loved it too because my it mirrored my parents' marriage. The these people who are married to each other and hate each other and torment each other. And there's one scene in the book where the wife starts chopping off a little bit of the husband's Notice, she starts adding a little bit to the of to the of length to the husband's walking stick. That's right. And tells him he has the shrinks. He's yes, he's getting shorter. Right, right, right. You have the shrinks, you have the shrinks. And meanwhile, he's like, What? What and he's looking to her, he has to look to her to confirm that. Right. And she's just really, you know.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

Just abusive.

SPEAKER_00 12:14

Abusive.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

It's just torment, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:17

But it always made me laugh. Yeah. Gaslighting isn't funny.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

No. But but Rawald Dahl made it funny.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

Raldah, yeah. He was very dark.

SPEAKER_01 12:25

Extremely dark. Yeah. We should do an episode on just this his the writings of Rald Dahl. Yes. And and and the psychological like understanding of that. Let's talk a little bit about what gaslighting is not. Because I think that that's that's really what we have to look at. Because we hear it on social media, we hear it in the public, everybody just says, oh, they're that person is gaslighting me, they're gaslighting me. So let's talk about what it's not. And some, you know, and this kind of like mirrors a lot of what we talked about with trauma. There are hard relationships in life, there are painful relationships, there are experiences that we have that we just don't like. When we have an exchange that we don't like, just because there's a disagreement, that does not mean that we are being gaslit.

SPEAKER_00 13:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 13:13

Yes. So so just because somebody is being defensive and so say you call somebody out, just because they're being defensive and refusing to apologize and accept accountability or responsibility for what they said or their actions, that doesn't mean we're being gaslit.

SPEAKER_00 13:30

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 13:31

Right. So if you do something and and I don't like it, and I say, you know, Kenyon, that was really offensive. I would like you to apologize to me for that. And you're like, yeah, I'm not apologizing for that. Like that's how I felt. That's what I wanted to do. That's not, you're not gaslighting me.

SPEAKER_00 13:46

Got it.

SPEAKER_01 13:47

Just because you're refusing to apologize.

SPEAKER_00 13:48

Because I'm not manipulating you into doubting yourself.

SPEAKER_01 13:51

No, you're just you're just you're just not apologizing. You just don't want to accept responsibility.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

Yeah. I'm being defensive.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

Sure. Yeah. Right. Which is fine.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

If that's your MO, you can be defensive. But right. Another one is like when that's not gaslighting is I just made remember that event differently than you do.

SPEAKER_01 14:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 14:10

And I'm actually being honest. Like, no, I didn't, I really don't remember saying that.

SPEAKER_01 14:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:15

That happens a lot with with in my marriage, where uh my wife will say, you know, you, you know, you were yelling, and do and and I'll be like, I really don't have that exp that memory. I think I that that's not my memory. Yeah. She'll be like, well, that's my memory.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

And which isn't wrong. No. Neither of you might neither of you are wrong there. So here's the issue is that human recall and memory is actually really not accurate.

SPEAKER_00 14:43

Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

That's why, like, when we look at like eyewitness testimony in courts and memory recall of events and like big events, it immediately becomes distorted.

SPEAKER_02 14:53

Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

And it becomes distorted because the way that we remember things is by recreating the event in our mind. We don't actually, we don't actually pull the the image off the shelf.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

The memory. It's not, it's not just baked already.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

No, it's not a photo book where you like open it and go, oh, here it is with all the senses. Right. It's you're, you know, you're leafing through and saying, well, actually, you know, on on April 4th, I did not raise my voice here. There was no picture of me yelling. Right, right, right. You recreate the memory of that time, you recreate it in your brain every time you you work on recall. This is why, this is why trauma continues for people. When they when they remember a traumatic event, they're recreating the scenario and they're being re-traumatized each time. That's why it's an important distinction.

SPEAKER_00 15:40

Yeah, you're making everything, your brain is making everything to order, almost like a cook.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

It is, yes. You're pulling more senses in, smells, sights, sounds, what your body felt at the time. So each person has a different experience. And then what happens because we're all different that way, you are going to recall a similar event differently than I'm going to recall it.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:01

And that's what happens. And then three weeks from now, if we both have to go recall that same event, I mean, like, yeah, Kenyon, you were yelling and you were like super intense and like all amped up. And that might not have been the case.

SPEAKER_02 16:14

Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:15

It was probably somewhere in between both of our experiences. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

And that's yeah, that's an important point to make. Yeah. The And there are there are plenty of situations, I think, conflicts where both parties feel misunderstood. Absolutely. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's gaslighting. Because I'm not, I'm not trying, again, I'm not trying to manipulate you. You're not trying to manipulate me. You're just saying, hey, this is this is how I remember it. You're not hearing me. You're not understanding me.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

Yeah. So there's there's ways to reference that. So when when we when we think gaslighting's happening, it's important to actually relabel the thing. So we can the the the experience. So we look at it as we can, you're being defensive, right? Stop lying to me. Yeah. We remember this differently. You know, I feel dismissed or not believed. Right. So we can talk more about what the feeling is and what what the exchange is going on in the relationship rather than just saying, you're gaslighting me.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

Right.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

Right. We can't just dismiss it with this label that that isn't even appropriate to the experience.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

Exactly. Exactly. Different problems, different conflicts, issues between people that are going to arise in these long-term relationships, especially, need precise language and names. And I think that's our point. It's like we're not trying to be pedantic. We're not trying to put too much of an emphasis on word choice. But you know, people dismiss semantics. But if we call everything gaslighting, it's harder to know not only what it actually is, but like how to handle it. Yeah. What to do? What am I going to do next?

SPEAKER_01 17:56

That's right. It it really clouds any direction or any ability to move forward. Right. Or as we talk to have that relationship, right? When we talked about boundaries, let's think of it this way. Gaslighting is kind of that, it's closing the window.

unknown 18:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

When I talked about having the screen to screen. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

The screen to kind of let that fresh air in, wave to your neighbor and say, hey, what's going on? But you know, they can't put their hand through your window.

SPEAKER_00 18:21

Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Because the screen's there.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

And we don't have to give them cookies.

SPEAKER_01 18:24

And we don't have to give them cookies.

SPEAKER_00 18:25

Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

Gaslighting is closing the window. If if we just, if if I say you're gaslighting me, that's what's happening. Yeah. We're we're we're shutting down any ability to kind of like well, there's we're shutting down any ability for any corrective action to take place. It would be much better if I said, you know, Kenyon, you I'm actually feeling a little disrespected by you right now. And and maybe we could talk about that.

SPEAKER_00 18:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

But that that takes, I mean, that takes a lot of work too.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

It does. But it's amazing how disarming that language is. Yeah. Like to say, hey, Kenyon, I'm feeling dis I'm I'm feeling disrespected right now, as opposed to stop disrespecting me. Why are you disrespecting me?

SPEAKER_01 19:08

Right. I think part of the reason we we reach for this word too, and it shuts and it shuts down that conversation because it's generally people don't like conflict, and that is that it's conflict, right? When we I think conflict kind of gets blown up into this idea that it has to be like some big fight. It's not conflict, it is just some some disagreement, some kind of something where we just don't align right on our view. And that happens in any relationship. That is a natural human condition to have conflict of like how we see things. What happens then is that we get we get defensive, right? We start to get that that kind of like fight or flight, kind of like a discomfort, a little anxiety. Yeah. And what and when we're being gaslit, when this thing is actually happening to us, we start to have these feelings of like the self-doubt, the sensitivity, maybe I'm crazy. There's like this fog after conversations, like we stop trusting ourselves. We do. What did what what do we talk about? What you know now that when you say that, the thing I'm hearing is fear. Absolutely. If I stop trusting myself, I I can't walk outside and navigate the world. I can't even navigate the inside world or my own world without having a little bit of anxiety. Totally. And we know what happens when we have anxiety. We start kind of like shutting down, we we start reacting to things. Yeah, we close off relationship. It becomes very that becomes very maladaptive, very uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_00 20:39

Well, we yeah, you effectively become helpless because we're so we become so reliant upon the person who's gaslighting us. That's right. Over apologizing, that's another way the sort of symptom of being gaslit.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

Yeah. Here's your here's your role doll term, the shrinking. You've got or case of the shrinks, right? Yeah. Shrinking is when we talk about it in like a like a clinical sense, it's that idea like retreating. Yeah. Uh becoming small, so not yeah. Second guessing yourself. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

Not speaking up.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

Maybe he was on to something there. I think he I think he was he was definitely on to something. He was on to a lot. Yeah. And then what happens is we we start to just trade our reality for the other person's. Right. And we don't get to live our own authentic life. Right. Which we have we've we've talked a lot about. And and when we when we think about, and and I would ask people just to reflect on this, if you're not if your insides don't match your outsides, if you're not living authentically, if you can't live your own life, what does that feel like? You know, what feelings does that elicit? What sensations happen? And and how do you like go through your day then?

SPEAKER_00 21:50

I think you go through your day with a fog. Sure. It's like you just there's a serious disorientation where you know nothing. Feel you when you don't trust yourself. I had an experience with an abusive partner many years ago where she over time eroded my trust in myself by telling me I was stupid and I couldn't handle anything. And I did believe it after a while. I got to a point where I was like, oh my God, I can't even book a plane ticket without this person doing it for me or telling me how to do it. And so yeah, I mean, it is, I remember just kind of feeling like everything is too overwhelming. I'm gonna dissociate, I'm gonna be in a fog all the time.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

That fog, and and that also leads to some confusion too, right? If you you routinely like leave a conversation, you're like, what just happened here? And I just I don't even know like where I am in in this whole thing. That anytime we leave a conversation, we're genuinely confused like that. There's there, I remember there were two two two physical kind of scenarios that I was always taught were like really good red flags for when you're dealing with somebody who's really toxic or or manipulative. One is that if you leave the conversation or any conversation with them and you're always like, wait, what just happened? Where where am I? Like you feel like you kind of got like run around. Right. And the other one is in if people think about this, if you've run across people like this in your life, you get that chill, like the hair on the back of your neck kind of stands up, or you're just like that's trust that there we still have really good sensory kind of like warning signs. Yeah, instincts, we sometimes call it. I was yeah, as I was looking for that word, I was like, what? Yeah, it's it's it's instincts. Just think of poop-cutting changes. Yeah, but we trust that. Yeah, those and and that's what happens. If we leave, if we leave a conversation with either of those feelings, like huge red flag, gaslighting will do that until you start to doubt it, right? So if you're if we're we're having that constant thing, you're like, wait, what's going on? Why, yeah, why I'm this isn't right. I know this wasn't my I know this wasn't the reality. Right. Yeah, right. Yeah. And and you know, we talk a lot about how how these psychological experiences actually affect us physically. Gaslighting does that too. We we experience knots in our stomach, it uh that stomach drops, right? You feel that, oh, that that really kind of like pit, maybe a tight chest, you know, it just nothing, nothing matches that spoken kind of like content. It doesn't match what what's being said.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

I've even said, yeah, I've even seen cases where people are, you know, they talk about having panic attacks, and it's actually the result of somebody having gaslit them to the extent that they don't trust themselves at all and they feel utterly inept in the face of any sort of situation.

SPEAKER_01 24:49

That's right. Including I'm going to be painted this way. Yeah. I'm going to after this conversation, I'm going it's I'm going to still be sitting here holding the bag, basically. Yeah. And you're going to think of me negatively. And then everybody else is going to think of me that way. Look at this is how I look now. This is how I have to walk through the world. Right. This is how I appear to your family. Right. This is how I appear to my colleagues at work.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

Yeah.

unknown 25:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:15

No, it's it's really, it's really malicious. Yeah, the more we talk about it, it's it's like this toxic, just really like you said before, evil. It does. It does feel a lot like evil. And and you know, the context in which this takes place, we talked about them a little bit before, but I mean, again, relationships is a is you mentioned domestic abuse, right? Families where you'll see this with like a family, uh, the parents who've abused the child, and then the child actually confronts them, and that then the parents say, What are you talking about? You had the most amazing child. We gave you everything. You're just really ungrateful.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

You're just really, really, really selfish.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

By the way, it can be even more kind of like toned down from that. Yeah, I don't think it those in relationships and in family, it might not, it might not even be at an abusive level. It might just be a little, maybe there's some neglect. Right. In relationships, maybe it's just somebody who just does not ever want to take accountability.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

And so they're just going to constantly put it on the other person. Right. You know, which which is uh abusive in a on a spectrum of like things that we don't we shouldn't be doing to other human beings. Right, right, right. But yeah. And so that's so we could see it like that. There's that when we talked about trauma, we had single single event of like markers, and then when the complex trauma. The complex, which is that low-level consistent stuff. Consistent, yeah, low-level.

SPEAKER_00 26:40

It doesn't look on the outside, it may not look that bad. Right. It's not as obvious as like single incident trauma. But it's it's really take taking its toll on our psyche. There's but you're absolutely right. Anytime somebody is not taking accountability, so that can uh in an office setting, in a work setting, yeah, can be, you know, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

What do we always hear? Oh, like these, like that doesn't happen here. We don't do those things here. That's not part of our work culture.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 27:08

Right. Which which means you you end up kind of like feeling like you're not part of the work.

SPEAKER_00 27:13

You're othered.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

You're not part of the work culture.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

That doesn't happen here. That sort of denial.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:19

You see it with all the time when I'm working with SUD with substance use disorders and people who are in what we used to term active addiction, there's a lot of gaslighting. Not only on the part of the person who's struggling with the with the disorder, not only for them to gaslight others, but for them to gaslight themselves. It's like a self-gaslighting process. Self-gaslight, yeah. It's it's really to protect whatever the maladaptive behavior is. In that case, probably like a substance use disorder. So, oh, you know, we do this all the time when I was in a rehab, you know, in IOPs. Like, let's take an inventory, we would call it, of how you used to act when you were addicted to this substance, when you were on it. And and how would you rationalize it and justify it to yourself, saying things like, oh, it wasn't that bad. I never really, I never got in trouble, I never got arrested. Right.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

I wasn't stealing. Yeah, I wasn't stealing.

SPEAKER_00 28:19

I wasn't abusing anybody physically.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

So it sounds like it minimizes the impact that it might have on themselves and on other people, right?

SPEAKER_00 28:27

It does. And, you know, I I'm oh I'm exact you're exaggerating. I'm exaggerating. You know. Meanwhile, your body has had this experience of, you know, that's at least with with substance use disorder, often traumatic. Of course. So your body's gonna disagree with that. Yeah. So you're saying one thing to yourself, and your body's feeling much feeling a different sensation altogether.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

Right. And that misalignment it it creates, that discrepancy doesn't allow someone to move forward, really. And it's it's funny because when we, you know, and I've I've worked in a lot of like substance use programs and rehabs and detoxes and everything, and it's that is it's everybody always looks like, oh, you're you're rationalizing, and it becomes like this this it's kind of like fight back and forth.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:14

When you think about really what's happening there, it it is a can you explain what rationalization is though? So rationalizing is is kind of what we're talking about, like with it's like self self-gaslighting, I think, is kind of like not admitting. Yeah, we're not admitting that what's going on, or we're minimizing the the damage that something or the or the the negativity that something had, right? Like I did this because or hey, I you know, well, I was using because you know, I had really work was so hard. I had to do this. It it kind of uses it It deflects accountability, it deflects accountability or or give or gives you an excuse as to why you were doing the thing, right? Right.

SPEAKER_00 29:55

So we can let ourselves off the hook.

SPEAKER_01 29:58

Yeah. So it's deflecting accountability by by minimizing the the problem and and and giving you like I guess like what you would think would be a good reason to use. Right, right. Right, or a good reason to behave you that way. Well, of course I did that. Look at what I was dealing with.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

Yes, that's rationalizing. And you'll hear that in all kinds of contexts. Sure, that's not just substance use. No, just to rationalize any or justify any type of you know, maladaptive behavior or harmful behavior.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

Right. It wasn't that bad. I don't do that all the time.

SPEAKER_00 30:31

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 30:33

It's how we I don't well, I don't yell every day. Right. I only yell when when the kids disrespect me. Yeah, right. And it's like no, it's true.

SPEAKER_00 30:43

Well, it's like the fake apology, the non-apology. Yeah, exactly. I'm sorry that you think I was unreasonable, but you know, the reality is I was dealing with so much stuff, and you were being really unreasonable. And what else was I supposed to do? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

You created this, then the gaslighting starts. Look, you know, you kind of created this environment. Yeah, this is that's not how things happened.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

Yeah, you actually did this. I don't behave this way in a vacuum. No, you must have been, yeah. Ooh, it's yeah, there you go.

SPEAKER_01 31:13

It gets deep. So one of the things I want people to know too, and and I think we've talked about this, is how do they how do people deal with gaslighting if we think that that's what's going on? If it's if we've made the determination that it's not just something we disagree with, it's not just somebody not accepting accountability, right? Right, but if you're truly being gaslit, how do we deal with that?

SPEAKER_00 31:40

I think a lot of it is about defining your reality outside the dynamic. So the dynamic, if you're in the context of whatever that long-term relationship is, where you're being gaslit or where you could suspect that you're being gaslit, uh if you're within that context, you can't really trust anything.

SPEAKER_01 32:02

No.

SPEAKER_00 32:03

So here's an idea. Write down what happened. If if there was a conflict, if there was something, like write down the events as you remember them right away. Yeah. And then share the specifics of what happened with somebody you do trust, someone who's not inside of within the bounds of that gaslighting long-term relationship. Here's, hey Chris, here's what this person said, and here's what I said, and here's how I felt about it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:31

Or read it from your notes.

SPEAKER_00 32:33

That's what I mean. Like sharing it with you. Right. Because you're trusted.

SPEAKER_01 32:37

You know, I tell people to do this in couples therapy all the time, and they're like, oh yeah, great. I'm gonna get the score keep and I'm gonna get to show you. Like, no, no, no, no, no. Let's be clear. We're not doing this a score keep, we're not doing this to prove the other person wrong. We're actually doing this to highlight the difference in experience.

SPEAKER_00 32:54

Right. And validate each other.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

Which is it, which, which is a really important distinction. Again, we're not doing it to scorekeep. We're not doing it to prove the other wrong, but we're we're doing it to test reality. And and I think when we when when we're looking at couples work and relationship work, a lot of that is hey, listen, you experience it this way, I experience it this way. How are we going to come together in the middle somewhere to make the relationship continue to work?

SPEAKER_00 33:20

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 33:20

And so, but you're your suggestion on writing things down, journaling about it right away before before our brain starts clouding it, before all the other stuff starts spinning it into something else.

SPEAKER_00 33:30

Yeah. Grab your phone and just do a voice memo.

SPEAKER_01 33:33

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 33:34

Easy, absolutely, and it records and it's there. And then look for patterns over time. Yeah. Like, okay, is this a one-off? If it's a one-off, doesn't mean it's right, doesn't mean it's okay, but that's different. Gaslighting is a pattern.

SPEAKER_01 33:49

Yes. So does does does something happening like two or three times make it a pattern, or is that still because I think I wonder if if people are like, oh, it's a one-off one time, but then they did it like, you know, months later or whatever it might be.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

If you're seeing, yeah. I mean, if you're seeing something happen, say three times and it's within a set period of time that's not too, you know, spaced out, meaning it's happening, hey, within a month, this happens three times or more, then yeah, you're looking at a pattern.

SPEAKER_01 34:21

Okay. That's important. I think it's also if it's we I think we should also look at whether this is something that we have consistently seen since the beginning of the interaction with this person, or if it's just maybe something happened and it's a new pattern. So if it's a new pattern, we want to be really curious about and say, hey, what what's going on? Why is this thing suddenly happening? Good. Why is this person acting this way? Why are they gaslighting me now when for 10 years that didn't happen?

SPEAKER_00 34:49

Yeah. No, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 34:51

That's and because I think there's some events that can can maybe contribute to this too.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

Yeah. The other thing I think too is, you know, watch how you're talking to yourself.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

Oh, I love that. I am I'm so big on internal language. On uh yeah, the way we talk to ourselves. I'm always going on about nar our narrative, right? Our story. We think about unhelpful thinking styles, right?

SPEAKER_00 35:13

So But it's yeah, I mean, to be watch out if you find yourself saying, Oh, I must be crazy, or I'm just too sensitive, or I'm making a mountain out of a molehill.

SPEAKER_01 35:22

Yeah. Any any language that's putting yourself down, right? Right, or sounds like that, that kind of self-doubt or that that judgment. You want to shift to something that's more about the pattern, right? Oh, something about this interaction is making me doubt myself, and that matters.

SPEAKER_00 35:39

And you said it earlier go ahead. Go ahead. No, no. You said it earlier with the I statement.

SPEAKER_01 35:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

You know, I feel like maybe you're disrespecting me. You gave an example, but use those I statements as a sort of anchor for how you talk to yourself and how you experience your reality.

SPEAKER_01 35:55

That's right. Because it's a line, it's it's allowing you to connect. That's we always want to be aligned, right? That the internal, external kind of like thing. We want we want that to be as aligned as possible. So I statements do that. Right. This is why in in in in clinical interactions and therapy, and it's I remember even, you know, when I was first starting off, every I was always like, hey, use I statements, use i statements. Don't say you, don't say you, don't say you. Use I statements for a reason. Absolutely. Because you're it's keeping it on what your experience is. And I love that way that you said that before, like anchoring yourself in in in what your experience is. Yeah. Right. And that's what we have to, that's when we when we talk about grounding ourselves, being aware of what we're kind of experiencing. We want to be anchored or or kind of like really kind of aware of where our feet are.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

Absolutely. And and validated too. It acknowledges what again, reality is subjective. Yeah. I have my reality that I'm experiencing right now, you have yours in a squeaky couch. Oh my god. And you know, and and also the way you experience that squeaky couch is valid. Yes. And the way I'm experiencing this room and this reality is valid.

SPEAKER_01 37:07

Absolutely. The other, the other thing we do, and this goes back to boundaries, and this is how we deal with gaslighting, is that we test the relationship. Right. And what I mean by that is that we need we can do this gently. We don't want to be like, you know what you do, like kind of like blow it all up. But we talk about it's and this is a communication thing. So a healthy boundary would be like when you say this, like when you say X, I end up doubting my own memory. Right. And that doesn't work for me. Yeah. So you're creat you're you're drawing a clear line in the sand to say the thing you're doing that that makes me feel this way, or I end up having this feeling because you're doing that thing, you can't make me feel that way. But you say something, I end up feeling this way, right? And that doesn't work. So we need to figure out a different exchange. Exactly. And and I want to go back because I made that correction there. When when you do this, I end up doing this. Not when you do this, uh it makes me feel this way. Because I think all too often we blame others. That's a signing blame. Yeah, we we blame people for our own feelings, and your your actions or the way somebody talks about something or behaves can it certainly has an impact on how I feel.

SPEAKER_02 38:24

Right.

SPEAKER_01 38:25

But we have to be responsible for our own feelings and our own reactions to things. So that's why that's another place where words matter. So when you do X, I end up doubting my own memory about that, and that doesn't work for me.

unknown 38:38

Right.

SPEAKER_01 38:39

And then we and then we watch what happens over time. Does the other person end up showing some curiosity about it or a willingness to understand, or do they continue to do the same thing? Right, right, right. And or do they double down and flip it back? Do they gaslight us about that too, which I think could happen?

SPEAKER_00 38:53

Could definitely happen. Yeah. It also takes the charge out of the exchange in a great way. So like it reminds me of your definition of boundaries from last week. You know, like a boundary can be like, hey, I want to the goal here is communication. Yes. The goal is for us to keep talking and to remain in relationship. And if you do this, I do this. Or so let's you know, figure out the solution. But again, that's taking it out of the context of shame and blame. Right. And that's not the goal here.

SPEAKER_01 39:27

No, the goal is to to really address the phenomenon. Yeah. And and what I mean by that shift it. Yeah. And it's to to look at what the exchange is. When I say phenomenon, I mean the experience, the the exchange. So then that's that's what the goal is, and to shift that. You're right. The other thing we have to do to deal with gaslighting or address gaslighting, if it is truly happening under the definition, is assess safety and what the options are.

SPEAKER_00 39:53

For sure.

SPEAKER_01 39:54

Because as we said, this this is a real phenomenon. This is something that really happens. And it is it constitutes emotional abuse. It's manipulative. It is it is with malice often. And so we need to name that, as you said, as emotional abuse and as real harm and and address that. Like how are we going to you know, how are we going to address this emotional abuse that's happening?

SPEAKER_00 40:19

And that's where, yeah, as therapists, we can come in with, you know, options. Hey, maybe if it's, you know, if the gaslighting's happening in a couple, and say, hey, you know what, I think maybe it's time for couples counseling, where a third party can help, you know, assess, you know, like, oh, hey, this you're not crazy. And yes, you are being manipulative. Yeah. You know. Or say, actually, no, that's not a manipulative, this isn't gaslighting what's going on. You're just arguing. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 40:54

You just or so-and-so just doesn't want to apologize. Or they or you like you said, you're arguing, you just disagree about this thing. The thing that we really need to look at here is that we don't need a perfect label in order to get help. So if we're experiencing that, if we're experiencing gaslighting, we don't need to wait until we can kind of define it as that. But if if any if anybody is feeling those things, if they're doubting the reality in the relationship, if things are coming up like that, where you're like, wait, am I crazy? What like am I questioning my own experience here? Get help.

SPEAKER_02 41:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:33

Reach out, ask for help. You don't need to wait until you can like clearly define that term to actually ask for help.

SPEAKER_00 41:42

Absolutely. And that's where uh having a trusted friend can also just be a huge boon, you know, and a and protective factor. We talk about protective factors and risk factors. Protective factors literally help protect us when in the face of some kind of something like gaslighting and other experiences that are adverse experiences, a risk factor makes them worse. Yeah. But just having somebody to to to bounce your reality off of doesn't have to be a therapist.

SPEAKER_01 42:14

No, it doesn't. It and and and I think for most people often it's not. It's it's a close friend or a family member or somebody that they can just be like, Can I run this by you? Yeah, does this am I crazy? Yeah, yeah. Right. If I feel if I feel constantly, yeah, you know, confused or small around somebody, that's enough, that's enough for me to take note. Right. If I'm always like, if I always have that reaction around somebody, I need to look at that and and go, okay, what what's going on here? Why, why is this happening for me every time I'm around this person?

SPEAKER_00 42:47

Right. Look at the pattern.

SPEAKER_01 42:49

Absolutely. And and the pattern isn't always their behavior that we notice first. The pattern can be our own gut, right? I told you before, like, notice when the back when the hair on the back of your neck stands up. Notice when you get that sinking feeling in your gut when you're around a specific person. Our instinct, our intuition, it's it, we need to, we need to trust it enough to pay attention to it. Right. It's saying something's not right here. Anxiety is another one of those things. When we feel anxious, it's our brain's way of saying, hey, pay attention real quick. Just assess the situation. Maybe you don't need to continue feeling anxious, but just assess the situation because something here is telling your body that it's not right.

SPEAKER_00 43:30

Right. Trusting our instincts. And gaslighting is one of the worst things about gaslighting, I think, again, in terms of like adverse consequences, is we stop trusting our instincts. That's right. We forget we have them.

SPEAKER_01 43:44

We're told that they're not, they're not trustworthy. Right. That's that's the really toxic and damaging part is that gaslighting is making somebody else feel like their instincts are not um, they're not accurate. There's something wrong with them. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 43:59

So In terms of being more precise with our language, for our listeners to be more precise with their language, this is not to invalidate pain or suffering. You know, it is really painful when somebody is just being defensive sometimes or you know refuses to acknowledge that they've lied. Yes. But gaslighting maybe we should reserve for you know that that specific quality where it's it's it's somebody lying and getting it lying in such a way that to break down your trust in yourself.

SPEAKER_01 44:39

That's right. It was the same with boundaries, not not kind of like applying it to everything. Right. It's the same with trauma. It devalues the word. And this is this is a real concern. This is why we are having these conversations about each one of these terms that we hear so so frequently. Gaslighting is getting applied to every disagreement that that somebody has. And you're right, we need to bring it back to that precision too. Gaslighting applies to a an experience of being manipulated into not trusting yourself. Right. That doesn't mean like just because I say, I don't like what you said, or I disagree with that, that I'm gaslighting you.

SPEAKER_00 45:19

This is it, and it's a pattern, so it's a systematic erosion of, you know, a person's reality and sense of trust.

SPEAKER_01 45:27

Yeah. And so when we when we all when we bring when we bring the precision back to it, when we start using it appropriately, we're actually starting to protect survivor experience. We're we're protecting the people who are really experiencing that that level of manipulation and abuse. And it and it keeps the term from becoming background. And it's it's so cool that it came from like this, this, you know, from a movie, from a from a from a play. In a movie, and became part of pop culture. I think it it's just a wonderful explanation for the phenomenon that's happening.

SPEAKER_02 46:07

Right.

SPEAKER_01 46:07

But but we have to make sure that it is specific to the thing that's happening, right? And not just getting, you know, if it just becomes overused, it just becomes dismissed. Yeah. And then and then we have to go back to really trying to explain this really confusing experience for people. Right. And that that's hard to do. Yeah. Right. It's as as therapists, we do that all day. We're like, let's put it's really what we do is uh in therapy is let's put a word to this really confusing and difficult experience that you're having. Yeah. In so many different ways, right? Depression isn't just one thing, it's this this kind of like, you know, big picture of multiple experiences that we as therapists get to say, yeah, this sounds like this is something like depression. And for one person, it might feel and look like something different than the other person. Right. So it's the same with Cassidy. We want to be able to put the terms so that people have a a word to use and then that offers some relief then. Oh, I have this thing that I'm looking at. I know what the word is. Now I now I can actually plan on how to press it.

SPEAKER_00 47:12

None of us are are are being overly sensitive if we just want our reality to be taken seriously. If I want you to take me seriously when I'm telling you about something that happened, I'm not being unreasonable. No. And I think it's important that we tell ourselves that we're not being unreasonable. What in in in terms of if we're in if you find yourself in a situation where you're just trying to decide if you're being gaslit or not, the question isn't does this meet some kind of official gaslighting threshold? Yeah. The question's more just what is this pattern doing to me? And how is my day-to-day reality being affected? How is my self-image being affected?

SPEAKER_01 47:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:57

And then kind of like going from there.

SPEAKER_01 47:59

What am I yeah, what am I going to do with that information? Because I think that that's that's where a breakdown sometimes happens too. We might recognize a pattern that's happening. We might say, Oh, I'm in this manipulative kind of like dynamic and it's hurting me. But there's still that next step of like, now what am I going to do with that information? And I think that's where therapy really can help, or talking to talking to anybody, right? If you have somebody who's trusted, you talk about it, you it's no longer your secret, it's no longer just something that you're experiencing on the inside. You're you're calling attention to the thing, you're calling attention to what what what's hurting you or causing a reaction. And then when you share it with somebody, you get to say, okay, well, yeah, I guess, I guess I kind of have to do something about it now. Or not, or you could sit with it. But like, you don't want to sit with that. That's kind of yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:53

But it is so important again to to move beyond the threshold of you know that gaslighting relationship to for a reality check.

SPEAKER_01 49:04

Yes. So a simple guideline is like if the core issue is a disagreement, then name what the disagreement is. If the core issue is defensiveness, if somebody's being defensive, then name the defensiveness. If it's a difference of memory, like you mentioned that that exchange with your wife earlier, like I remember this differently than than she did. Right. You know, that name that. And if it's if it is a if it's a systematic erosion of your reality over time, that's when it's gaslighting. It's not disagreement, defensiveness, or like difference of memory recall.

SPEAKER_00 49:48

Yeah, if I can look at you and say, oh my God, you've been trying for years to get me to doubt myself and not believe anything I experience or feel or say.

SPEAKER_01 50:00

Yeah, that's the guideline, right? Those those things. Name the elephant in the room, name the thing that's happening. Don't just throw labels on it because they seem like they fit.

SPEAKER_00 50:10

Thanks for listening to Lumen. If today's conversation resonated with you, we encourage you to follow, review, and share Lumen with anyone you think would appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 50:20

We'll be back soon with another conversation designed to bring a little more light to the human condition. I'm Christopher Mooney, LCSW. And I'm Kenyon Phillips, LMSW. Until next time, take care of yourselves and each other. Lumen is for educational and informational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapy, diagnosis, or treatment. If you're experiencing a mental health crisis, please contact local emergency services or a trusted mental health professional.