Old Skills, New Tools

In this episode, Tim and Jude sit down with Michael Ware, owner of Controlled Chaos Arms in Baxter, Iowa. Michael started as a diesel technician before going into gunsmithing full-time. He's a self-taught gunsmith with years of experience as a machinist and received instruction from Gordy Gritters. We pick Michael's brain on being a gunsmith and his philosophy on life and working on firearms.

This podcast is for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice. Please speak to a qualified firearm professional for any industry-related questions or decisions. The views and opinions expressed in this episode are solely those of the host and guests and do not reflect the official policy or position of any company. This content is intended for audiences 21 years or older. Viewer discretion is advised. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:02

Welcome to another episode of Built to Last with Brownells. I'm your host Tim, alongside our co-host Jude, recording in the Ram Room at Brown Elves. Today's guest is Michael Ware, owner and operator of Controlled Chaos Arms. He's a trained diesel technician, grew up working electrical jobs with his dad, has formal machine shop background. He's also built some 1919 A4 Brownies for refurbished John Deere tanks, which he can't really talk about. Expanded into bolt guns, 1911 Safari and Mountain Rifles. He's a self-taught gunsmith with supplemental instruction from Gordy Gritters and a heavy product user with a youth competitive shooter in the household. Welcome to the podcast, Michael.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

I'm glad to be here. Thank you very much for inviting me. It's it's a real honor. I uh I would do just about anything that Brownells and the Brown Else crew ask me to do. Pete's been a good friend of mine when many other people have not been willing or able. And uh he's my brother in Christ. I love him a lot. He's very important to me. And I've got lots of friends at work here, so it's it's nice to come over and be with you guys.

SPEAKER_02 1:01

And it's always nice, just from my standpoint, to have a local guy here as well, and not one that's yeah, you do great work, but you also are, you know, several states away. You're right here in Iowa. You've lived here your whole life, I assume.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Yes. I've got a I mean I've got an order sitting next door when we're done with this. I got to go pick up and take back. So I appreciate being close in proximity to Brown's because when I order usually by lunchtime, I may see it. No joke, I may see it before 10 a.m. the next day. That's amazing. Yes. I love that a lot. Big time.

SPEAKER_02 1:31

There's not a lot of companies that you can get that kind of service out of and get high quality parts. Like, yeah, you can get Amazon like same day, two-day shipping, but no, it's a collaboration.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

And uh the whether it's this podcast or doing business with Brown Ells High, I view it as a situation where it's rather than a supplier relationship, which is not uncommon these days, uh, but I view it as if we're industry partners. Does that make sense? Yeah. And and I and I need, as a small businessman, I need industry partners. So it's sure it's great to work with you guys. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_02 1:59

Yeah. We we're not here without the gunsmiths. There's no gunsmiths. We lose a big chunk of what we can offer the the Second Amendment industry as a whole. Yeah, they're a tooth in the cog, no doubt. So let's talk about gunsmithing. You didn't start in gunsmithing, you actually started in diesel and machine shops. What did that environment teach you about precision and tolerance that still shows up in your builds today?

SPEAKER_01 2:21

You know, I'm not sure if if it's a complete truism to say I had aptitude therefore, but I had aptitude therefore. Does that does that make sense? So when I was a pup, my dad owned his own business. He did a lot of electrical work, uh, uh commercial and residential refrigeration, those kinds of things. And I grew up in a small town named Bedford in southwest Iowa. Not a big population, I don't know, 1,300, 1,500, something like that. And so when it was time to go to work, I hopped up and jumped in dad's service truck, his van, and off we went, you know. And so I'd be fetching screwdrivers and parts and stuff back and forth. And uh I don't know if working with my hands and visualizing how a process or processes took place was manufactured in me or whether it was natural, I couldn't tell you. But I've always been really good at that. So uh through doing those things with my dad and enjoying that, uh my aunts, uncles, all of them were farmers. So there was always something to do with your hands or some sort of mischief to get into. That was pretty natural. So when it came to trying to find something to do when post-high school, and I had been worked as a diesel tech and a lube oil filter guy, you know, as a pup in high school. And uh I thought, well, I'll take this career path that looks to be promising, and some of these people do well for themselves. It it provides. So I did that, and I ended up finding out uh uh on some levels my gift of gab, if you would call it that, uh exceeded my desire to get dirt under my fingernails as often. So you move into out of the shop into management, one thing leads to another, then you're in sales, and you look back and say, Well, I guess here I am. So and then I transitioned when I was in sales, uh, I was doing really well and I enjoyed it. But but the truth of the matter is I became a very expensive employee. Monster expense account. I was always breaking my budget. I mean, I would always, you know, your budgets, you gotta hit your forecast numbers of$7.2 million this year. Okay, fine. Well, how's nine sound? And so when you post those numbers, that's great. And then the president of the company looks at your expense report and he's like, You realize that you're$80,000 over your expenses for just like taking people out to lunch and stuff. And I'm like, Yeah, I don't care. He's like, Well, why don't you care? Well, because I made you another three million dollars. Do you really care about the 80 grand? Because I know I don't. Oh, well, as long as that's what we're doing, I don't care either. So anyway, I became a very expensive employee, and one day they slid a piece of paper across my desk and said, uh, here's your new compensation package. I'm like, uh I don't know whose package it is, it ain't mine. I'm like, is it advantageous for me to quit or should you let me go? Well, it's better if we let you go. I'm like, okay, that's fine. So I came home and my wife's like, Where's your truck? I'm like, eh. Funny stuff. That was never my truck. I hope you remember that. Yeah, so what? I'm like, well, I have built other people's businesses in small or large part my whole life. So the question is, is do we want to do this? And I had been doing controlled chaos arms for a number of years before that, but it was at a very small level. It's not a lot different than um uh you may remember. I'm sure you do the uh uh the story about uh Bob Brownell and him having his fingers in a lot of different pies, you know. And uh uh this is working, this is working well, this is not working so great, but I'm doing all these things. So it was probably not a lot different than that. So I decided that I'd spend uh my time full time on this. And I'll admit I kind of wanted to. Whether it was this or not, I wanted to be my own businessman. I don't do well under fluorescent lights, I don't do well with micromanagement. Uh I'm probably not a great employee to have, you know what I mean? So uh uh there are problems associated with being who I am. And so uh this was better for me. And I really, really enjoyed when I was a kid, my folks were there for everything. I mean, I went to football games and I could look up in the stands and my folks would be there. And so I like being able to do that for my kids now. And uh as a small businessman, I've got a lot of flexibility and I love that. Yeah, I really, really do. And having your own business just allows you to be able to do that so much more free than well, uh for some of the customers listening to this, they may not dig this, but and this is why your projects are chronically late, my apologies. But uh, I'll only apologize that for for that to a certain degree. I take no issue with turning the lights off and leaving. If my kids have something to do that I really want to be there for, if I get a church member or a brother or a sister that needs something, fine. Shut the lights off and I'll go to them. I love being able to do that. Uh it's exceedingly fulfilling to be able to do something for with others because you you can detach from what's in front of you. Now that comes at a cost. I'm not saying that it doesn't. There are customers of mine that probably wouldn't come back if they were honest because uh I didn't get something done for them in a timely fashion. And I have to apologize for that because it's legit. So I made a choice. But uh I'm glad to be able to make the choice, if that makes sense. Right.

SPEAKER_02 7:15

When did moving into firearms stop being an interest and it start being a vocation for you then?

SPEAKER_01 7:21

Well, okay, so I was taking customers out west to shoot prairie dogs. And the company that I worked for at the time, I wouldn't say they were apolitical, but they didn't really dig that. So they're like, okay, fine, we'll we'll pay for hotels and and some food and and maybe we can work out on something on ammo, but we're not buying guns or doing any gun rail. So I had to take I know. So I had to take out my own rifles or whatever else. And sometimes uh we had some honey holes in uh in south central and south uh eastern Wyoming. And I mean like the earth moved with prairie dogs. It was insane. I mean it was like it you could look out there as like ripples on a water, they were everywhere. There were so many, right? And so we were shooting anywhere from between four and seven thousand rounds um per person in four to six days. We were smoking my rifles as fast as I could have them rebarreled. I mean, it was bad. I mean, I went to the gunsmith and he's kind of spurred me. He's like, This is dumb. I'm like, what do you what do you mean it's dumb? And once you can take my money, he's like, he's just just hear me out. He's like, I have put more barrels on your rifles than all the rest of my other customers combined this year. And I said, Okay, that that doesn't mean much to me. Is that a big number or a small number? He's like, Well, it's a lot. He's like, You had like 24 rifles through here this year. I said, So? He's like, with your background, growing up in a machine shop, all this stuff, you should do this yourself. And I'm like, All right then, maybe I just will. So I rebarreled a few rifles and I'm like, this is not that hard. I think I can do this routinely, and I think I could do this well. So one thing led to another, and I was more serious about having my shingle out than before.

SPEAKER_02 9:02

So when you move through the machine shop service parts warranty and sales area, what did you learn about customers that most builders don't see?

SPEAKER_01 9:12

Well, I think that there are there are cliches that get forwarded in any profession that you should avoid. Uh, one of them uh uh is the customer's always right. He's not. He's often dead wrong. But it doesn't matter if he's wrong or not. What matters is how you're gonna handle that person. How are you gonna manage their concerns? That's really what I end up learning. Because if I was gonna stand there on what was right and what was wrong, fundamentally or philosophically, I'd probably lose a lot of those arguments. Or if I won, it was only metaphorical and it wouldn't be of any value because I will have irritated those people and now their revenue evaporates. And it's really hard to recover from a bad reputation. Right. I remember somebody saying, Well, the customers are always right. I'm like, no, dude, they're not. They're rarely right. But that's why I need to be there so I can help them with that. And my job is managing their concerns and showing them the respect they deserve, honoring them with the true nature of love, and saying, okay, I I want to be part of this success. Here's how I can do those things. And oh, by the way, here are a few forks in the road, here are some options. What would you like to explore? And then that's my job. I mean, I have I ask customers, the the new ones that come in, because the established customers are very easy to to work with and relate to. You have a you have you built a rapport, right? But the new folks that come in, I want to know two things. A, uh, how did you hear about us? Because that's really important. You need to know that and be cognizant of that and do something with that. And the other thing is uh I ask them all uh when we when we're finished with our first interaction before they walk out the door, I'll ask them, how do you feel about how you've been treated today? Have you been handled well? I know we don't have a relationship, I know we haven't worked together, but now we have a little bit. Would you give me some honest feedback on that? And most of the time I get the same thing. They're like, I I don't know how to respond to that. I've never been asked that before. I'm like, well, I'm sorry that you haven't been, but you'd be doing me a personal favor, and you, whether you realize it or not, if you'd share with me what you thought about this. Have I asked you the questions that you expect to be asked? Have I managed the concerns that you've got? Do we have any left that are unspoken? Because I don't want you to leave here and get halfway down my driveway and you say, I should have said this, or I don't feel good about that. I want to avoid those.

SPEAKER_02 11:25

Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

And usually they'll open up a little bit at that point if they haven't already, and you can talk about what's truly the heart of the matter. Here's an example. Let's say you need tires on your car, right? Okay. And you go to a tire shop. What do you expect to get? I expect to get tires on my car. What else? Uh, and be treated well. Right. But tires on your car were the first thing that you said. Yeah. So do you need to be handled well as a human being, as a as a brother and sister, or whatever it may be. Those things are paramount. Those are the those are the interlacing um um loops on a on a zipper. They have to work, and they have to work well. And I don't think that many people get that right, especially in a service industry. Gunsmithing's a service industry. Brownells is a service industry. Yes, it's part supply, but it's not just transactional. Right. It's right. Because I can tell you, I have had problems with billing, I've had problems with ordering, I've had had these things. And so you think, uh, they you get on there and you hit a button and it sends it to you. No, dude, it doesn't work like that. And every now and then you've got to call somebody. And when somebody on the other end answers, and whoever it may be handles those things and handles them well, or maybe exceeds all your expectations, how confident are you gonna be to come back to Brownhouse? Right. It's gonna be high on your list. You're right. I got news for you. There's a heck of a lot of places you can buy from that come on. We've all been out there, we know what it's like. It it isn't gonna go well if you can get a hold of somebody. So I think to answer your question well, you really need to ask yourself how you intend to treat others because of what you expect and what you'd prefer to be treated yourself.

SPEAKER_02 13:02

You're not just trying to be a successful business, but you're building relationships. And then along the way, I really like what you were saying. You're trying to do a little bit of education uh as well. Like here, here are some options. And if you have questions on which one you can go, like I'll I'll give you the information and to be a partner with them and not just here, here's an invoice.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

Aaron Powell I'm not saying that what I'm suggesting to you is the only way to run a business. I'm saying it works well for me because I tend to be a storyteller anyway. Uh if I can do this with people and I can talk with them back and forth, then I think that that's a value to them.

SPEAKER_02 13:37

So and I realized I didn't ask you this at the beginning and I didn't really lay it out. How long have you been in the gunsmithing kind of arena?

SPEAKER_01 13:46

Oh I incorporated, I believe it was in 2008, and I had been doing it for a number of years before then. It was necessary that I really take it to the next level in 2010 or 11 it was, I think, or somewhere around 2010, I think. And uh uh but I'd been doing this for uh a number of years before that. I even had some part-time employees that worked in the shop, even though I was on the road working for somebody else.

SPEAKER_02 14:10

So what does controlled chaos mean to you in the context of firearms and life?

SPEAKER_01 14:16

Dude, it's a metaphor for life. Are you kidding me? I mean, it yes, it adequately describes a business, but it's probably a apropos for all of us. I mean, this idea that we've got control of these things we don't, uh, but we endeavor, you know, a little bit here and there to do what we can. So uh one the reason that I chose that for a business name, I knew it was a little bit longer. It wasn't quite catchy, it probably wasn't short and succinct, it wasn't Nike, and the and the um mantra wasn't just do it. You know what I'm saying? It wasn't like that. I understand some marketing and I knew that I was moving away from what I had ought to. But, you know, I at the time I had been really interested in long-range shooting. I had done that for a number of years with varying levels of success, nothing real great, um, but I enjoyed it a lot. And I had made an analogy to somebody, I'm like, well, well, like, how do you hit a target a mile away? I'm like, well, I don't hit them as often as I would like, and not as consistently. But it's like controlling chaos. I'm like, do you do you understand that the target's moved before your bullet gets there? No, it's not. I'm like, yeah, the earth's spinning very, very quickly. Uh and uh when there's a long uh flight, these are considerations that you have to make now. And uh, when it's a short flight, you don't. And go prepare an azimuth and a reverse azimuth and start doing some of this math. It's it's harder than what I thought. And when and when my high school math teachers are like, you need to learn how to do this, Michael. I'm like, no, I don't, dude. I'll never need to know this. If I can do a squared plus b squared equals c squared, I can build a deck. I don't really need anything else. Like, you're wrong about that.

SPEAKER_02 15:47

So it sounds like really the the name is philosophy first and and not necessarily product first. Kind of.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

I wasn't that deep at the time that I came up with it, but it seems to fit well now.

SPEAKER_02 15:59

Aaron Powell So you've built everything from those 1919 A4 Brownings to bolt guns and safari rifles. What connects all of those platforms under one philosophy?

SPEAKER_01 16:10

Aaron Powell I wanted to do what I did well, and I thought that it was important that uh I take some cues from some of the other industries I'd been in and some of the other things that I'd done, in that I believed it was inherently a mistake to go out there and try and be everything to everyone. And I would tell any gunsmith or most businesses anyway, listening, if you do that, you're in great peril. If you say that I can do anything for anybody that anybody asks me, it's highly likely you can't. And it's also highly likely that you'll burn the business to the ground. I mean, for example, let's let's look at the things that you just mentioned. Rattle that list off again, will you?

SPEAKER_02 16:47

The 1919 A4 Brownings, bolt guns, safari rifles.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

Those all don't come from the same build philosophies. They don't require the same tooling, they don't require the same modes of thought, they don't re require uh the same abilities, they don't require the same uh items that you use to finish them, um, to do the work themselves. They're not in the same environments, they don't shoot the same ammo. They happen to be guns, and that's about where it ends. You know what I mean? And so when I started out, I really wanted to do precision rifles, and I was really interested in AR-15, so I stuck with that. And I became really good at that, and then it was natural when I had that business built and it was established, and I could rely on that income, and I had a name among the people and referrals that was helping residual business, then I could go do some other stuff. You know, so if for anybody listening, you you may know what that is. If you don't, I pity you. You know, uh, you know, you should ask for salvation because you need it. But uh so that was a 1911, by the way. So you're looking at these different things, and if you want to go out there and be these things to everybody, you can't. If if I went through Brown Al's catalog with the wish list on the things, just the basics that I'd need to do all the things that you mentioned there, it it would cost a small fortune. And I only use them occasionally. Right. So the tooling uh is one thing. The knowledge to be able to do these things well comes at time and a cost. I mean, you might have a super apt aptitude, and you might be really, really good with machines, and you might have very little um waste or screw-ups or whatever else, but that's a little rare. You know, so it's there's a cost associated with time and all these other things. You can't go out there and be everything to everybody. Find a niche, do well, excel, and then if you need to, add arrows to your quiver. There are some people who don't. There are some folks that get in one genre and they stay with it. I remember uh Brownales had a year a number of years ago. Does anybody remember the gunsmith fair by chance? No. Nope. For my chance. Yep. Okay. So Pete put on a gunsmith fair, I think they did it a number of years downtown in Des Moines. And so it was folks from the industry, suppliers, uh of course Brownells had a tremendous presence. And they invited people in tech schools, all these different things from all over. And it was all about gunsmith and gunsmithing and and everything you need. And I remember one of the gentlemen stood up there, he was one of your gun techs, Dave, something or another, I don't remember his last name. Really um well-respected gentleman. And he said, if you take this list of parts, and they printed it off. It was all right there, the brown nails part numbers and everything. If you take this list of parts, you'll have roughly$2,000 invested in it. And there's an absolutely growing number of scholastic trapshooters in and around Iowa and around the Midwest. It's exploding. They all need fitting, they all would benefit from these things, uh, and this list will do the lion's share of everything that you need to do on 20 and 12 gauges. I suggest that you do this. And he warned people against being everything to everybody. And I'm like, yeah, that's been my philosophy too. But it ended up turning out he was more right uh than I could have possibly imagined. I've had gun gunsmiths uh and tech school folks come to me and say, Hey, would you sit down and give me a few minutes? Yeah, I'll block off some time. What's this date, this time, come over, and we do. And I warn them about that. They almost never listen. And unfortunately, I don't know of less the last six or maybe eight of those young young fellas, there was a lady too. None of them are in business now. Yeah, they they outdrove their headlights.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

Well, you know, they they're getting into the business, right? And they got all these customers out there, they don't want to say no to a single person because it probably scares the heck out of them to do it. So it makes sense that you know they're like, I'm a gunsmith. There's this many types of guns, you know. So yeah, it's it's definitely good advice for them, and it's it's too bad that they're they're not still um running their business. But I get I definitely feel for them for for why they got into that tickle. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:48

How important is having a good solid network of other gun smiths?

SPEAKER_01 20:54

Okay, all right. So if you take it in that vein, A, I'd like to be able to rely on supports. So maybe I need to collaborate with another smith. Or B, if it's something I don't want to do, then I would like to, you know, we talked about managing customers' concerns and helping them, right? Caring enough about them to give them what they need, whether it's what you're able to provide or not. So there might be times when I simply need a referral. No, I'm not able to do that. No, I don't want to do that. Yes, I'm like, for example, woodworking. I hate it. I loathe working with wood. I'm really good at it, but I don't like it very much. And so I don't do it unless I have to, or unless, you know, some dude shows up and he's got a 14-year-old daughter that looks not much different than my daughter when she was that age, and they're blinking their eyes, like, would you do this on my shot? Got it. I'm like, oh geez, yes, I'll do it. You know, but I may not be digging it, but there are gonna be times I need to say, Listen, there's a gentleman I know. He's not that far away. I've got his number, I keep some of his cards here. Why don't you call him and tell him what's going on? I'm really confident he can help you get where you need to be. He's probably gonna be able to do it faster. And he's probably going to be able to do it cheaper than I can. This is the best thing for you to consider. Would you do that? And sometimes they'll say yes, and other times they're like, no, I want you to do it. I'm like, well, bring your wallet. And sometimes they say yes. You know, and it's that's the way it works. But you need to have support. You need to have fellows out there that you can rely on and work with. You need to have people that you collaborate with. I don't do every service that we provide under the roof, almost all. But there are times, like for example, I hate blueing, dude. I don't like it at all. And so I farm that out. But parkerizing and Saracode and Duraco and all these other things, uh, I take care of all. Now, I don't have the facilities or the money for uh nitrocarburization or, you know, trademark names like melanite. I don't have three quarters of a million dollars to put something in for that. So do I farm that out when I build guns? You betcha. So I need people that I can rely on that do that well, that can take small batch things and run them through for me. Or as I said before, sometimes it's referral.

SPEAKER_02 22:57

So it's like a balance of what is good business sense for you personally, and then what's a good experience for that customer as well?

SPEAKER_01 23:05

I need it to work for them. That's what they came for. They want to be handled well. They want to be cared about, they want something brought to fruition that meets or exceeds their expectations. And that may not always be me.

SPEAKER_02 23:17

What has to be true when you're working on a weapon or a firearm platform? What has to be true before you put your name on it?

SPEAKER_01 23:25

It's got to be quality. I'm not doing it. When I absolutely had to have the money to keep the lights on and make it work, because building businesses is very hard. There were a lot of like AR-15 snap-together Lego things that I had people ask me to do, and I said yes to them. And because I knew that they needed it and maybe their budgets were strained. We all have a budget.

SPEAKER_02 23:46

Right.

SPEAKER_01 23:46

Some people have$500 that they're going to put in an AR-15, and that's all they're going to spend. That's all they can afford to spend. And there are other people that roll up, like uh a friend of mine's a Safari customer not long ago, and he said, Hey, I need this uh AR-15 and 450 Bushmaster to come in at uh 5.2 pounds all in. I'm like, that's a tall order. And he's like, Well, can you do it or can you not? I'm like, Do you have a budget? He's like, I do not. I'm like, I can do it then. Absolutely. So it's sometimes those things work out. But I mean, uh, there have been projects that I've worked on, um, especially earlier in my career, that that they weren't up to the level that I had hoped that they could be. And and I needed to do them uh for the customers that wanted them, but would I choose to do them ordinarily? No, I wouldn't. And so um I'm to the point now where uh I can pick and choose those a little bit better, or sometimes, frankly, sometimes I can help those people in other ways. There's like five-gallon buckets of takeoff parts that are very, very good, used once or or you know, or are not used very much at all. Uh and I save them all and I ask customers, do you want this stuff back? No, what are you gonna do with it? I'm like, well, I can chuck it if you want me to, or I can give it, put it in the givea penny, take a penny pile. And I've got boxes and boxes of a box of that. So when these guys roll up uh and they've got airsoft parts, you laugh. But that happens. They'll show up with an Air 15 and I'll be like, Does this receiver extension look odd to you? No. Well, it wouldn't. They don't know. They have a Fraver Amazon. I'm like, well, it's too short. How do you know that? I'm like, well, I'll show you one that's correct. And then you get it out and you show it to them, and it's three quarters of an inch short. They're like, well, how's that? I'm like, you buy this from eBay? Yes. I'm like, well, it's an airsoft part. And I said, it might run the buffer tube to the back of your shoulder when you fire it. Same thing for flash hiders. I've seen these little investment cast flash hiders that are meant to be on airsoft guns. They don't last long on firearms. And if you have some of those slipover cans like uh uh some of the early GemTex ones or the uh Griffin armament, uh if if you slide one of those over and drop that horse collar and fire it, it will explode. I know I've done it. You know, and you're like, how did that happen? And then you find out later this was a cheap part. So sometimes you got a bucket of these parts or box of these. I'm like, listen, you don't want to use this. I got some stuff over here, you're welcome to have it. Will that help? And you can elevate, you know, the the quality of what's going on there, and uh, and that's rewarding. I hope to be able to do those things. But to answer your question, if it's not quality, I really don't want to do it.

SPEAKER_02 26:18

Which is a good thing. I mean, that's how you build your customer base is if you can have the cheapest job, but if it's not quality, are they gonna come back? Are they gonna tell their friends how great you are?

SPEAKER_01 26:30

There are some companies out there that you see right now that their name is is pretty timeless. Uh I'm not under any illusion that you'll remember controlled chaos arms the way that people remember Colt or Smith and Wesson, something like that, you know. But there may be other things uh that may carry forward that were that are just as important, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 26:52

Aaron Ross Powell So when your name is attached to a rifle, what do you hope it becomes 20 years from now?

SPEAKER_01 26:57

Uh I don't care. Doesn't matter. No. Uh I have CCA branded stuff. I have receivers out there and other things like that. And and I build a lot of post samples um that actually obviously have to be marked and manufactured by controlled chaos arms. And I want those things to last and last well. I don't think that it's logical or prudent for me to believe that my legacy is in metal. I think my legacy will be in how I've treated other people. Because to be honest with you, nobody's gonna remember Michael Ware 20 years from now, and they sure as hell won't remember me in 100 years from now. They won't. But but if I can have a touch on somebody else's life, uh a touch on their soul, help them with something, you know. I mean, there are people out there right now within earshot of this podcast that are dying for lack of a kind word. That's no joke. I mean, we're talking about guns, but but but I mean it's really how you treat people. Right. That's this is relationships, it's how we work with one another. I've got the ability in a service industry, people walk into my shop into a place where they assume that they're gonna see this and they're gonna find comfort in that or this, because they they can kind of tell how things are gonna go before they come and and the expectations when they get there. Um, I might be able to help them with something far beyond a firearm. And then they turn around and they help somebody with something else. That legacy, that touch, I can embrace. Metal, eh, it doesn't matter much. And that kind of Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 28:22

Yeah, yeah. And that kind of uh shoehorns into my next question. What does legacy mean in a trade where tools outlive the builder?

SPEAKER_01 28:31

Well, legacy are things of value. We we pretty much just covered that because the reality is is you you can have something that you can touch, it's tangible, you hold it. It it's a good, it's it's a fire and whatever else. And some of these things, oh, uh Sam Cole built this himself in 18, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever it was. And and maybe that's that provenance is carried down through and you get to hold it or handle it. Maybe you have an opportunity to buy it, and that means something to you. Well, I think it's a little unlikely that that'll be me. So uh that's possible, but remote, and it's not what my goal is. So maybe my legacy isn't anything that's tangible that you can touch. Maybe it's uh intangible, maybe it's a feeling, maybe it's a relationship, maybe it's something that stemmed from the conversation we're having now, maybe it's something that when Pete and I are sitting at a Haverthill Social Club sharing a slice of pizza and sipping a beer, we talk about maybe it's that. You know what I'm saying? And and the things that stem from that. So I think legacy can be a lot of different things, but if I were choosing, I think that my my preference would be intangibles.

SPEAKER_02 29:36

Lasts a lot longer.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

You can touch more people than well, it ceases being about me. It ceases being about something more than oneself. With with it was somebody else, are they truly the beneficiary of of this gunsmithing, of this work, of this time spent, of this shared um experience? And then what did it do for them that they could pay that forward to somebody else? That's a legacy.

SPEAKER_02 29:57

Aaron Powell Are you think since this kind of pivoting away from the legacy part, but do you think we're building more heirloom type firearms today or more just disposable platforms?

SPEAKER_01 30:08

Uh I don't know if I'd be able to tell you. I thought that one was more or less. I think there's plenty of both. Uh there's a trend out there to get uh something of value, uh, and values are different. You should be very careful about how we use that word. Um I would tell you in most sentences, you could transpose the word uh opinion for value and the sentence keep the same meaning. So your values, my values, your opinion, my opinion. Well, if they're different, then we've we've drawn a line in the sand that neither one of us is probably willing to cross, right? So we didn't tend to change one another's values that often, just like we don't change one another's opinions. But if we look at what it can do, there's a trend out there to say I want to get something of lower cost, more affordability out into every American's hand. It tends to be the Palmetto State Armory business philosophy. I think that there's a place for that. It's not for everyone. It's for a lot of people, but it's not for everyone. So are there people out there that want heirloom stuff? What I like to own, uh Doug Turnbull, 1911, color case hardened uh uh pistol. I don't own one, by the way. I would love that. I've never met him. I hear he's a fine gentleman. I know that his stuff is is well respected and well regarded. Um would I like to have one someday? You betcha. I would think that would be fantastic. Okay. Um so, so uh there is room out there for those heirloom stuff. There absolutely has to be. If you don't set your sights very high, what do you hope to accomplish? You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 31:37

Right.

SPEAKER_01 31:38

Uh, but is there room for everybody's budget and everybody's way to gather? It's just just be honest about the nature of what it is or isn't. Because I do have people that I talk to, my my AR-15 I built for$372 on a budget's just as good as this one over here. And I'm like, it's not. Does it satisfy you for what you say that you'll do with it? Yes, but let's be honest about that. Would would I try and defend myself on the side of the road when during the zombie apocalypse with that? I would not. And if I did, I would have a backup.

SPEAKER_02 32:11

A greater better backup.

SPEAKER_01 32:12

You know, so so we gotta be honest about it. That's all. I mean, I think that that's what this industry could benefit from the most is more of a touch of honesty. Yes, I'm not beating you down because you had a low budget. I need people to understand that. I don't want this to sound snobby at all. I'm not beating you down because you didn't have as much money to spend. I just need you to be honest about what this is and isn't. Because if you tell me what you want to take away from this and I can help you with that, I'll do it. And if I can't, then at least you'll know the truth of something. And I think that that's I think that that's what we sometimes lack. Is we don't we don't go after the truth of the matter. You know what I'm saying? And and we talked about it or we touched about it on it a little bit in that um you build up a customer base. Well, that's largely seen as loyalty. And I tend to run away from loyalty. Well, you and sometimes you've got to order good things, you know what I'm saying? So if you have loyalty here and truth here, which one of those is more important to you? As a business person or as a customer? And business people, politicians, undoubtedly always say loyalty and they're wrong. They they may think that they want that, it may make their life temporarily easier, but they don't they don't want it. It's really not what they benefit from. What they benefit from is the truth, as I understand it. You know what I'm saying? Because then that builds truth rather than loyalty, because loyalty uh will get you a bunch of sycophants, they'll roll up and kiss your end. Well, who cares about that? Right. So I had a few minutes of fleeting high self-esteem, which is gone immediately. Who cares? I really, really want the truth of something because that breeds trust. I would make an argument that I think trust is a super loyalty. If I have trust with my customers, or I've earned that with them, if I have trust with that when I buy something from Brownells, it's gonna be top quality or it's gonna work, then it then it will. And if it doesn't, I have the trust to know that it'll be handled well. Because that's another thing that happens in this industry when you're face to face. Well-handled customer problems breed more trust than anything else that can happen. I can build somebody that comes in and asks for a rifle and I do it. And he comes in and asks for a pistol and I do it. And he comes in and asks for this rifle and this rifle and this rifle and I do it. He can leave very happy. And he can feel trust, and this can work, this relationship is working. And then I screw the pooch. I don't mean to, but I do. And then I'm like, okay, I didn't do this well. First of all, I apologize. Number two, I seek your forgiveness. And number three, here's what I'm willing to do to make this right, and then some. Would you would you allow me to do that? Well, yes. And sometimes people are really, really happy with how they're treated when things aren't going well. That makes all the difference to me.

SPEAKER_02 34:59

That's where the the rubber hits the road. Is when things are not going well. Right. What happens?

SPEAKER_01 35:05

Well, you got egg on your face. Are you worried about wiping the egg off first, or are you worried about what threw it? Yeah. You should be worried about who hurled the egg. Yeah. You can wash up later. But we don't often do that. Like, oh, I gotta protect my image. I gotta delete this guy's comment on Facebook that's negative. No, you don't. Suffer it and do well.

SPEAKER_02 35:24

So let's pivot a little bit to uh somebody who's thinking about getting into gunsmithing or maybe taking that hobby level gunsmithing up the the next level and getting into it more full-time. What drove you to self-teach instead of going like a to a like fully institutional route with education?

SPEAKER_01 35:45

Uh I'm one of the least patient people I know. So that's just a fact. I'm I'm not particularly proud of that. Uh, but uh, but I'm not very patient, so I have to I have to narrowly tailor what I'm going to do or how I'm gonna do it, or else I put myself in a position to fail. Um and I've failed plenty. I'm trying to avoid it, right? So uh I didn't have the patience to drop what I was doing and go to any classes. They weren't offered locally to me, so logistics were a concern. Um, I wasn't able at that time to do the virtual learning that we see more common now. Uh and what was there was like here, buy this DVD and self-teach, which is was good at the time, but not great. And I was, as I said earlier, I had a mechanical aptitude. I could always look at gears and chains and whizbangs and Rube Goldberg widgets. I could look at them, uh, and this gear is turning counterclockwise here, and then 75 gears later, I could tell you which direction that was turning, just like that. I could always do those things, you know. It came very natural to me. So it wasn't a stretch for me to take this philosophy, philosophy, a basic understanding of metallurgy, what things were and weren't going to work well, uh, and apply it to a new facet of working with one's hands. I would caution any person that wants to be a gunsmith, if you truly, honestly, if you're mesmerized and baffled by metallurgy and taking something and putting it on a little platform and running around with your hands on a grinder and trying to shape something and you absolutely can't do it, I would tell you I don't think this is for you. There are some people who had not work with their hands. And if you're honest and say, I this is this is the moon to me, I don't think I'm not good at that. You're probably not going to excel as a gunsmith.

SPEAKER_02 37:31

Aaron Powell No amount of schooling or professional instruction is going to change that. It's you kind of have it or you don't. Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_01 37:38

Or I don't know if that's necessarily a hundred percent true, but I have met people that simply weren't good with their hands. Uh it didn't work well for them. They never had a sense of feel. I got to the point where I could take something and put it on a platform and carefully move it through and across a grinder, and people are like, oh my gosh, that looks like it was machine. I'm like, well, I've become very good at this. But there are some folks that that's just not in them. So be honest about that. And I don't, I'm not trying to scare off everybody out there. There's probably very few people that applies to. But if you're truly saying, dude, uh, I kind of picture being able to do that, and you've tried it a whole bunch of times and you it looks worse each time, not better, yeah, find something else.

SPEAKER_02 38:21

So as long as you're learning or you're increasing your knowledge, stick with it. Like learn new things, push those boundaries. But if it's you've tried it a million times, and like by the 990,000th time it's getting worse than when you first started. Maybe. Might be time to look at a different field.

SPEAKER_01 38:41

Maybe. I uh I bought a forge because I wanted to do more edge weapon work and more blade work. The goal eventually was to hand build 1911s, hand build the knife, use matching scales on both, and sell them in a kit. You know, a nice little I thought. I may still do it, okay?

SPEAKER_00 38:57

Please do.

SPEAKER_01 38:58

But I went out there, I went out there and I ran right out and I bought a forge. I'm like, I'm gonna be a purist. And so I was I bought this handcrake, you know, and uh my son immediately threw rocks down inside of it and broke the turbine wheels. And so uh yeah, it was the least cool thing happened that day. But anyway, uh, so I was gonna do this, and I found an old boy that had like a mountain of high sulfur coal from back in the day, and I'm like, oh, this is gonna be great. Uh and I tried to forge this and tried to forge that, and I was not good at it. And because I'm not patient, I didn't want, I have no doubt I'd be really good at it if I wanted to. But I decided at this time in my life, this isn't what I had ought to be doing. I'm not going to exercise the patience to move through my learning curve efficiently. And uh, the outcome of what I've put together is no doubt terrible looking and would probably shatter if used inappropriately. No, Michael, you should stop right now. Or commit yourself more deeply to this. And I didn't have the time or the desire to do it then. So I'm like, well, I'll I'll buy quality stock and I'll uh do a relief method instead, rather than forging. So maybe I'll get back to that because I really, really want to, but not while I've got too many other irons in the fire, no pun intended. So you know what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_02 40:14

Right.

SPEAKER_01 40:14

It wasn't the right time for me, maybe someday.

SPEAKER_02 40:16

Right. Yeah. And knowing when to, like, ah, I'm not saying not ever going to do this, but right now I can better direct my energies or focus in this area that is actually uh profitable, not profitable in like money, but uh it fills your bucket at the end of the day. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:33

Yeah, that's cool.

SPEAKER_02 40:34

What did learning from someone like Gordy Gritters add to your philosophy?

SPEAKER_01 40:38

Oh, it was very humbling. Yeah. I knew he was tremendous. Okay, so so Gordy had a place not very far from where we're recording this right now in Grinnell. Uh he wasn't very far away. And for another you know how it is, you take it for granted, he's one of the nation's very best. I could just run down the street and talk to him whenever I want. Uh and then, you know, he moves. I'm like, oh man. So he moves. I can't remember, it was KC, North KC, somewhere around there. I don't remember. Uh, and he was still offering classes, and I'm like, I've got to do some ongoing ed, some continuing ed. I need to do this. So I called him up and he's like, hey, great. I'd like to pick your brain about some Sarako stuff. I'm like, super, we'll collaborate. I'll be honored to help any way that I could. And so uh our family farms are in northwest Missouri. So I said, I told my aunt and uncle, I'm like, well, I'll be down and stay for a week. Um, and I've got six days worth of class I want to take from a friend of mine. Super. So I went down and did that. And I thought I was pretty good at what I was doing. And and I was, but I don't know if I'd say that I was great. You know what I mean? I thought that I was until I figured out that I hadn't been. And uh seeing some of those things, seeing that a process, picking up some of the things that were very normal to him that weren't normal to me, uh, was very interesting. And I remember I won't forget, um, and the barrel manufacturers that are about to hear this will cringe. I know they will. Uh, we were working, and what was really interesting, his his classes were groups, uh, and everybody canceled out, with the exception of two guys that were making up some makeup classes from when they had to leave early. So out of the six days worth of classes, I had to sit there with two other guys and they were fine gentlemen. But just for two days, and the other four were just me and him one-on-one. It was fantastic. Best money ever spent. Right. Oh, it was great. Anyway, uh, so uh we started down this path and he was talking about lead slugging. He said, Are you lead slugging your barrels? I'm like, No. Why would I do that? And he's like, to make sure whether they're they're okay or not. Are they within spec? Are they loose or tight and where and if so, where? And I'm like, these are hand lapped barrels from the very best people in the industry. Why would I need to do that? I'm paying them so that they send me something that's hand lapped ready to go. And he's like, he said, Well, I reject a bunch of them. I said, No, you don't. And he's like, Yes, I do. And so then I can't remember what it was, but he said, like one in five or at the time, I don't remember. It was it was a very high number. And I'm like, that's crazy talk. And he's like, FedEx dropped off two when you were gone at lunch. And he said, and there are three over here that aren't open. He said, I will bet you lunch tomorrow that one of these won't pass muster. And I'm like, you're on, dude. So we fired up the little smelter, got a jag out, and stuck it down the barrel and poured hot lead in and let it cool. Um, and then we went through all those. And two, two, out of the five, I won't name drop, it would be inappropriate, and I don't need that kind of trouble. But but two, I mean, these are the best respected names in industry. They're the ones that you think, oh, those are those guys are the top tier. Two of them were so loose at the muzzle that he's like, I'm not gonna keep these. These are these aren't good. And I'll send them back. He's like, they hate me. What do you mean they hate me? He's like, because I'll call up and I'll be like, I waited 28 weeks for this barrel. You sent me one that's loose at the muzzle. Uh, I need a new one and I need it new now because I've already waited, so I want the next one. And and he that's legit. He should have the next one. I get all that. And what was the problem? Well, the problem was is I must. I don't know. But I'm guessing when somebody was hand lapping these, I bet it's not their most experienced person, okay? And I think that maybe what happens again, I don't know this with certainty, but I'm assuming that when they are put drawing this this lead slug back, which has got oil on it and aluminum powder, they're drawing it back. Uh when they're lapping, by the way, it's got aluminum powder, or they're drawing it back, and I think they're changing directions before it exits the muzzle, instead of pulling it all the way out and possibly putting it back in. And and since I don't do enough of that to be an expert at hand lapping, I'm not sure that I don't want to tell somebody this is the way you do it, all right? But I'm suspecting that they changed directions way out there at the muzzle to avoid having trouble getting it back in. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 44:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 44:45

And so I think it wore down the muzzles a little prematurely at the muzzle end. And so when you draw this lead slug through, it was loose there. It was not a little loose, it was a lot. And so he's like, forget it. He said, if this was uh in the middle, I could lap it out or take care of it. This was way down at the other end, uh, way down the breach end. I'm not too concerned about it. These things will be fine at the muzzle end. I can't risk the leakage. I won't do it. And so it was little things like that uh that I picked up. I'm like, golly, now I got more work to do because I got to lead slug every barrel that comes in here. But I will tell you that my experience has merit is I've sent some back, and I'm like, sorry. This was uh I marked on the barrel with marker where the problem was. Take a look at it when it gets there, but I expect a replacement and and I'd like to have it as soon as possible.

SPEAKER_02 45:31

Trust but verify.

SPEAKER_01 45:32

Yeah, so so working with somebody like that that had all those years of experience, I'm a perceptive person. I want to believe, I really want to believe, I could have figured something like that out on my own, but I hadn't. And what I will tell you is this I don't know this with certainty, but I have had rifles in the past prior to that that didn't shoot, and I could never figure out why. And you end up saying to yourself at some point, I spent three hours of screwing around with this thing, and when I'm trying to bill$150 an hour, I'm moving from smart money to dumb money now. You know what I'm saying? I've lost out on$450 of billable labor. It's money ahead if I just buy a new barrel blank, get this thing spooled up, and build a new stick, you know? And so I wonder now, in retrospect, was uh one or two of those that dogged me something like that. Because I can tell you, since that time I went to take his classes, I've never had one that dogged me.

SPEAKER_03 46:33

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 46:34

Right. So so maybe that's what happened. I don't know. But but it was a tremendous experience, I would tell you, if you've got somebody that's got a great reputation and can teach, because Gordy's exceedingly good at teaching. I like that. There are some people who are really, really good and they're not meant to be teachers. Right. So I understand that. The intersection of these two loves, right? If you love the subject matter and then you love the student, you'll be great at teaching because that's the intersection of a good teacher. There's loving the subject matter and loving the student. I would tell you that there's a lot of people out there that love the subject matter when it comes to gunsmithing, and they don't necessarily love the student. So are they really good teachers?

unknown 47:13

No.

SPEAKER_01 47:14

Probably not. And if they don't love the subject matter, they won't be teachers for long anyway. Right. You kind of need to see where those two intersect, and that's how you should choose a teacher. But uh, I didn't do that going into it. I just got lucky, but I recognize it now, and that's what I would look for in the future.

SPEAKER_02 47:29

Is there a certain personality type that thrives in in your kind of environment uh or in your shop or gunsmithing in general?

SPEAKER_01 47:39

I will never forget. Uh I was shared with Pete this story not long after Frank passed, and I said, you know, your dad sized me up pretty quickly, and it pissed me off to no end at the moment. And he's like, How's that? And I said, Well, I think we were at the little tables down in Monty in the front room out there. Uh, and I was visiting with somebody and he came waltzing through there, and I something got said. I knew that he was hard hearing, so I didn't know if he heard me or whether he was just curious. He came over there and said, We got to visiting, and he and we hadn't talked for just a few minutes, and he crossed his arms, he's like, You're a front counter guy. You should you shouldn't be in the back. And I'm like, Well, I don't have a choice. He's like, What do you mean you don't have a choice? I'm like, You're looking at the CEO of the company. I'm also the packaging clerk. I'm billables. I run the broom, man. I said, I've got to do all this stuff. I don't get to not be the backroom guy. I gotta go build guns. And I got to sell them. He's like, you're a front room guy. He said, You should be selling guns and let somebody else build them. I'm like, well, if I was made a Frank Brownell money, maybe I'd consider doing that. But right now, this is what I got. So we had to chuckle about and off we went. And I thought about it later. I'm like, who does that guy think he is? To size me up in one sentence so quickly. And I became later or came around later. I'm like, uh Frank was very honest about that. He's very right. Uh he wasn't wrong to say it. Uh, and because he was a perceptive person like that, I ended up being able to accept that and know that he was right. So, who what kind of person does it take to be a gunsmith? Uh, like it or not, I think you better have both of those qualities. You're going to have to be able to communicate with people, sell on your strengths, uh, stay away from those things that aren't your strength. You've got to be able to do the work. And you shouldn't say things like Jack of all trades, master of none, because if you're planning on being a Jack, it isn't gonna go well for you or anybody else. So you kind of need to be experts everywhere you can be an expert. That's hard. That's hard in any business. But I think it's harder in something that requires your your hands. You know what I mean? Way, way tough. So gunsmithing's not an easy thing, but uh there's lots of different avenues. Not all gunsmithing is the same. There are people who thrive pounding sights in, like I said earlier, uh using tools and and and drawing them in and out. They are excellent. I remember when I was a pup just starting. I mean, AR-15 was just a thing. This is a long time ago. Or it was a form that I had just found. Maybe this name will ring some bells with some people. I think his name was Bill Springfield. And I think he was in Colorado and he had made a fixture. I don't know how he did it. I don't know if it was some sort of stone, I assume it was a stone, but he had made a fixture where you could send off your AR-15 GI um hammer and and shoe. You could send it out there, and he would send it back. And for I think it was 35 bucks, you literally put a uh United States Postal Service money order for$35 in this little bag and sent your stuff out there, and you got it back in less than a week, and it was tremendous. It was a way lighter pull because he put new springs on it, and uh all the camming was gone, all the the the sear contact was cut way down, you know what I mean? And so he was doing these trigger jobs, and then he started moving from AR-15 trigger jobs to all kinds of different stuff. You could send him your stuff and he could stone them and send them back to you in quick order. And I thought to myself, not long after that, I would be willing to bet that this guy can do 10 minimum of these an hour, maybe 15 or 20, depending on how he's set up. And I thought, hmm,$350 an hour and the guy's going to the post office twice a week, that's good kit. Yeah. I like that. You know, I thought so, so, so do is that guy a gunsmith? Can he build a 1919 A4 from scratch? Can he make it run? Uh, can he set the headspace and clearances so it runs at the right speed reliably and doesn't blow up? I seriously doubt it. I doubt that that was in his acumen. If it was, it was not evident in anything that I ever saw him say or post. But that doesn't mean that he wasn't a gunsmith. So he found something he could do and he did well and he excelled at it and he made great money for himself and had a great reputation. So there's more than one way to be a gunsmith. You you don't have to do all of these intricate things that I enjoy doing because I like a challenge or or I want to do more complex work. You can do very simple stuff and make good coin. You just have to be disciplined and again, seek the truth of something. You got to be honest about what this is or isn't gonna be, and then go do that.

SPEAKER_02 52:17

Just like you were talking about before, you can't do everything. You can't do everything well. Find that one thing that you excel at that fills your bucket, and then build off that, right? Yeah. All right. Some rapid fire questions here since we're getting close to our time. Uh what's the most underrated rifle platform, in your opinion?

SPEAKER_01 52:36

Oh, uh for rifle, you said? Yeah. Uh the break action stuff, the old toppers, the break action single shot stuff. I love that. Super simple, uh potential for tremendous accuracy, potential for great triggers, low failure rates. They're great. Less yes, they're absolutely great. You don't see them that often, but I have enjoyed, like, for example, I've had some guys come in with 30 cal blanks, and like, what would you do with this? I'm like, well, I can build you a 300 blackout that made zero noise. What do you mean? I'm like, well, we'll use subsonics in it. We'll have a little seven-inch tick, we'll have a great big can hanging off of it, uh, and you'll your daisy, your red rider, will make more noise than this. Nonsense. I'm like, All right, you give me your wallet and we'll make it happen. So you can do some fun stuff like that. So I don't know. I think that they're underrated. I I love that. I love that stuff.

SPEAKER_02 53:30

What's one tool that every serious builder should have? Builder? Builder, not necessarily gunsmith. Ooh.

SPEAKER_01 53:37

Well, I guess it might be the same answer for both. Builder, I would tell you the a proper hammer. I know that that sounds a little backyard, maybe a little hillbilly, but I think you need to have a proper hammer. It needs to be exceedingly well weighted. Um, the face needs to be perfect and it needs to be maintained. Probably small, finesse, almost tack hammer size for a builder. For a gunsmith, this is a cringe moment for the people listening, but you need to have a four-pound hammer and you need to use it. And you need to have underneath it, you need to have punches that don't break and shatter. Because I think you'd be shocked how many times you simply have to offer force to get something apart or get it to move. You have to. I mean, I have people that are like, what's that? And I'm like, it's my favorite hammer. Like, you use a hammer that big on my gun. I'm like, I'm not saying I did that. And if I did, I'd probably avoid talking about it with you. But sometimes that's necessary, you know.

SPEAKER_02 54:33

Talking to some of the gun techs upstairs, they're like, there's a reason why the gun shops in the back. And because if you saw what we were doing to your gun to get it to work again, you would be cringing the whole time.

SPEAKER_01 54:44

I got caught doing that one day. I know that I shouldn't I shouldn't stray too far. But I had a a Howa 1500. Um I don't know how they put their barrels on, but I would assume it's some sort of hydraulic process because they're exceedingly hard to get off from time to time. And I had one that dogged me for a long time. I never had one beat me before, ever. I mean, I really mistreated my barrel vice. I mean, I did everything that you could possibly do to hold onto this thing and get it apart. And so I had this huge, you know, uh eight-inch vice, then it's on a table, you can barely move, right? So I ended up putting the action in there, wrapping it in leather, and held the action still. And because I was going to, what the deal was is I couldn't put this thing through my lathe because it was so short it wouldn't fit through the headstock in my spindlebore. Wouldn't fit. So the barrel has to come off in order for me to tune this, turn this thing down to fit this really elaborate um shoulder weird muzzle brake that was like four inches deep, right? And so I'm like, well, I know how I can get this out of there. I just don't want to do it. Because I'd heated it, I'd cooled it, I'd soaked it in acetone with um ATF. So basically that's croil, right? I'd done all this stuff, and I couldn't get it, and I didn't want to get it so hot that I would damage metallurgy or risk it, so I didn't want to make it glow. And so I'm like, okay. Ordinarily to get a barrel out of there, I would put it in the lathe and run the plunge cutter right up to the shoulder and cut it, and it would, you could spin it out by hand, but I had to save this barrel instead of throw it away, right? So I put a four-foot cheater pipe over a pipe wrench, I think it was. Nice. And put it on the muzzle or out at the muzzle because I knew I was gonna take a lathe and get rid of all that. You know, and so if it's scarred up and looks terrible, would anybody ever see it? No, they it would never be known. And just as I was prying on that thing, just as I was really hammering on it, a customer walked through the door. And this vice I'm talking about is literally six feet away from that door. And he looked at me and looked at that, and I was I was straining, not trying to have a pop and then bust me in my face, right? Because that happens. Right. So I was trying to avoid all that. And I looked over at it and I'm like, dude, go outside. I'll get you in one minute. And so I it popped loose, and it was fine after that. And he and I got, I said, ah, come on in now. So he did, and he's like, uh, so uh how many free guns do I get if I don't tell anybody about what I just saw? And I'm like, you get none. But uh, but I would appreciate if you did offer this, you offer it in context. So I showed him the I told him the story and off we went.

SPEAKER_00 57:13

So that's that diesel mechanic in you coming out.

SPEAKER_01 57:16

I never had a project uh as a diesel tech that didn't best me either, but sometimes you gotta do some crazy stuff.

SPEAKER_02 57:22

Just gotta find a longer lever.

SPEAKER_00 57:23

Get a whole old faithful breaker bars but sit by in a cabinet for four years. New would come in handy. There it is. You gotta rely on that stuff.

SPEAKER_02 57:31

Uh where can people reach out to you, find you, um connect?

SPEAKER_01 57:35

Uh we have a website, controlled chaosarms.com, and we stay uh relatively active on Facebook and Instagram. Um if I could leverage some social media better, I think that I would be happier about that. But I think it's most important for people like me to make sure that uh folks understand the art of referral, uh, because that's where the lion's share of my business comes from. Satisfied customers. And and so many people may say that's social media, but that is usually an extension of a customer who's been satisfied or they wouldn't talk about it, shared or mentioned it to their friends, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 58:09

Awesome. Well, Michael, thanks for being here and sharing your time and experience with us. If you want to learn more about control chaos, like you said, you got the website, uh, Facebook, and on Instagram a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 58:20

We try and post every day.

SPEAKER_02 58:22

All right. Well, if you enjoyed today's episode, share built to last with someone who appreciates reliable skills, useful tools, and the legacy of doing things the right way. And as always, ready to aim fire those comments or bench questions my way at built to last at brown elves.com. Remember, if it's worth building, ensure it's built to last.