What the Pros Carry

In this episode, we sit down and talk to KP Robinson of Grey Group, LLC. KP is a 22-year Senior Police Officer with the Des Moines Police Department and a 19-year Sniper Team Leader for the Metro STAR (SWAT) Team.

He also served as a Metro Transit Police Officer in Washington, D.C., during the DC Sniper era, bringing operational experience from high-threat, high-visibility environments.

We talk about what the pros use for precision rifle setups and gear, what's just fad, and what is non-negotiable.

This podcast is for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice. Please speak to a qualified firearm professional for any industry-related questions or decisions. The views and opinions expressed in this episode are solely those of the host and guests and do not reflect the official policy or position of any company. This content is intended for audiences 21 years or older. Viewer discretion is advised. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Welcome to another episode of Built to Last with Brown Ells. I'm your host, Tim, alongside our co-host Jude, recording in the Ram Room at Brown Alz. Today's guest is KP Robinson of Gray Group LLC, a 22-year senior police officer with the Des Moines Police Department and a 19-year sniper team leader for the Metro Star SWAT team. He also served as a Metro Transit Police Officer in Washington, D.C. during the DC Sniper era, bringing operational experience from high-threat, high-visibility environments. KP is a distinguished service award recipient for actions taken during the successful hostage rescue of three children, reflecting leadership under real-world pressure. He authored and presented the formal proposal that led his unit to become the first sniper team in the state, issued Accuracy International Rifles after extensive testing and evaluation. His instructor impact is measurable. Three former students were involved in separate sniper officer-involved shootings and prevailed, underscoring his emphasis on precision, judgment, and officer survival. His training includes FBI instructor development, the FBI sniper course, NTOA sniper instructor, and NTOA team leader development. He maintains strong professional relationships with industry experts, including Hornady's Law Enforcement Division, Mile High Shooting, and leading barrel trigger and action builders, and he actively engages with top PRS and NRL shooters to stay current on professional gear and performance standards. KP, welcome to Built to Last.

SPEAKER_03 1:32

Thanks. Glad to be here. I got about three hours of sleep Friday night.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

So what was last week? Did you go to Hack Creek Art? Oh, that's cool. Was it pretty boring? Not as cool as you wanted. That's how it always goes.

SPEAKER_03 1:46

I would not recommend it. Yeah, don't waste your time. Cool. Thanks. Yeah. Now I'm ready to go back. My wife would kill me though. Did you do all right out there? I tell you what, the wind sucked. It kicked my ass.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

Yeah. I can't imagine what that's like having differential winds different places, you know, shooting across an open space into the Yeah, when you're like shooting here or like we shoot at Van Meter a lot, if you have any wind, you know what it's gonna do.

SPEAKER_03 2:14

Right?

SPEAKER_01 2:15

Free constant value.

SPEAKER_03 2:17

Right? Yeah, no. Uh you you just you might as well just guess. You just throw the first round. That way you can get a feel for what's going on.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

So nothing changes. Okay. Yeah. Kentucky stuff. Cool. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

So you spent over two decades in law enforcement and nearly two decades leading a sniper element. How did your view of professional gear evolve over that span?

SPEAKER_03 2:42

You know, for years the Remington 700 was the gold standard. Um obviously you saw things evolve, saw some failures with the Remington 700. I've even seen uh some failures with that platform coming directly from their custom shop, uh, which l led our team to start exploring different options. Uh that landed us with the I Accuracy International platform. Just like anything else, things need to evolve. I think if we don't do some research, I think if we don't evolve, it it leads us to be pretty stagnant in this world. Uh the analogy that I use is uh you're your chief or whoever is not going to use a 30-year-old computer. And if you were to go in today and swap his computer out with a 30-year-old computer, it's the same as an officer still using a 30-year-old Remington 700, which by the way, I still see frequently. Uh these teams are at a disadvantage that that still have that going on.

SPEAKER_00 3:55

So either evolve or fall behind?

SPEAKER_03 3:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

And this is your type of scenarios uh falling behind is leads to catastrophic results usually.

SPEAKER_03 4:06

It can. Um even in the last two years, I've had uh Remeded 700 rifles show up on the range that have had mechanical negligent discharges, which obviously is the whole reason they went bankrupt. Um it's the same thing that that they had for years. I've seen it with my own eyes. It wasn't shooter-induced, it was it was truly mechanical. That is absolutely insane to me. It's it's a liability, and I don't know why any department would put their officer in that position.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

What do you think is the main reason behind it? Is it just complacency or dollar budgetary reasons?

SPEAKER_03 4:52

I I think a lot of it is they still think of that system as the gold standard, and they can't get past that. And yes, it's complacency. The other side of it is is and and I've seen it time and time again, is we we buy these, and we meaning agencies, buy these weapons platforms, and we don't have a plan to replace them. We think that they can last 30 years. They may last 30 years. However, again, we're using 30-year-old technology at that time. It's just not fair uh to the officers that have to use that technology. Can they make it work? Yeah. And hats off to you know the men and women that have to make that work. And part of my job as the instructor is to make sure that they can make that work. However, like I said, it it's it's a liability to them and they should never be put in that position.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

When you moved from operator to instructor and evaluator, what changed in how you looked at the equipment?

SPEAKER_03 5:55

I think the biggest thing that changed for me was to make sure that my team had the equipment that they needed to do the job correctly. I don't want to say the most up-to-date equipment because we can get a little bit ahead of ourselves because technology changes so fast. But equipment that we can rely on, equipment that we can depend our lives on, somebody else's lives on, depend uh, excuse me, equipment that is gonna re-help reduce that liability for us, and at the end of the day, is gonna allow us to, if we had to, make that shot, have confidence in making that shot, and go home to our families at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

So it sounds like reliability trumps everything, whether it's the newest technology, the oldest technology, reliability is key.

SPEAKER_03 6:49

Absolutely. If I can't trust a piece of equipment in in my world, it's it it just doesn't cut it.

SPEAKER_00 6:56

And we'll talk a little bit about pressure as the filter here. So you spent over two decades in law enforcement, nearly two decades leading a sniper element. How did your view of professional gear evolve over that time span?

SPEAKER_03 7:09

Again, you know, when I started, it was, you know, the gold standard was the Rumington 700 and the the loophole Mark IV. As things evolved, now it became, and I think it still is probably the gold standard now is the night force attacker. That that thing's hard to beat. It's pretty much bomb proof. There are some other scope companies out there that are coming along that are probably gonna rival that at some point. Um, I know they're trying. I think with modern times with prefit barrels, that's gonna help with things. Uh, one of the things that uh we looked at with the Accuracy International platform was the ability to swap a barrel out in-house. Uh we switched to that platform in 2014. At that time, the only way to get a barrel swapped out on a rifle was to send it out to a gunsmith. And realistically, now I'm without a gun then for six months. So when I can swap a barrel out in less than a minute and not be without a gun and be back up operationally uh if a barrel were to get shot out or, you know, whatever the case may be, that was a huge thing. Now we have pre-fits. Um those help. Uh, there's a lot of good uh action makers that are out there now. I mean, I could probably write all 10 off the top of my head right now. That helps as well. But again, I I encourage uh teams to do their research to find what works for them. There's no one size fits all. Am I an AI fan? Absolutely. Again, use them for years, trust my life to it completely. I know, you know, I'm gonna have a first-round impact. I know the gun's gonna work every single time, no matter how dirty, no matter how cold, that gun is absolutely gonna function. I have one personally. It's it's my instructor gun. I it just never fails. And uh I can't begin to tell you how many teams in the Midwest I've been able to help transition to that rifle platform because they've had problems with the previous platforms they were using and and were looking to transition to something else.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

Is there a certain round count that you be like, oh, this is this barrel's getting close to end of life. I want to replace it or put a new barrel on before start losing accuracy.

SPEAKER_03 9:35

We used to think uh in the 308 anyway, we used to think once we got to that eight or 10,000 round mark that we'd probably close. And I would still say keep an eye on it. Um, however, uh my duty rifle uh was a 2014 uh AI AT. Uh I had a over 11,000 rounds through the original barrel and it was still shooting half a minute, so half inch groups all day long. I don't know that there's any set number, if you will. It all depends on you know how fast you're shooting those rounds through it, uh how hot the powder's burning through it, muzzle velocity, things like that. Obviously, you're gonna get a lot more rounds out of a 308. Uh, we're starting to see teams now transition to 6'5 Creedmore. That's yet to be seen on how many rounds we can get out of those. I I still think the number is gonna be higher than we think.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 10:29

You know, we've often heard 4,000 rounds or somewhere in that ballpark. I think we can get more. I really can in the law enforcement world. We're not shooting, you know, rapid fire all day long.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

Which is 10 where you tend to see barrels burn out the fastest.

SPEAKER_03 10:45

I know talking to uh the folks down at Daniel Defense uh with their Delta V Pros. I mean, they're swapping barrels out on uh the 6'5s somewhere between six and eight thousand rounds just because, not because they're shot out, just because same thing in their 308s, they're swapping them out at 10,000 rounds just because. So I think with you know modern barrel technology, we're gonna be able to see that number increase.

SPEAKER_00 11:13

And do you usually monitor that just by when you go out to do certifications to make sure that you're still hitting that half minute?

SPEAKER_03 11:21

Yeah, first thing that we do, uh, well, first of all, we keep a round count. And the first thing that we do every training day is uh cold bore shots, followed up by uh a five-round group. So once we start to see that group kind of spread, um, and you'll see it, it's drastic. Um, you may shoot again a half inch group one day, come back out the next day, it may be the size of your fist. Oh wow. And I mean, just and it's just like that. It's not a gradual, no. It'll be just immediate. And uh I I've seen it a few times uh with guns on the range. And usually what I'll do is I'll take that shooter and put them on a different gun just to take that shooter out of the equation, and then I'll look at the history of the gun itself. Uh but yeah, it we monitor that. That that's the reason we we shoot cold bore shots uh is is to make sure that we uh can track that and be consistent with it.

SPEAKER_00 12:18

Have a baseline to go off of?

SPEAKER_03 12:20

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

How often are those guys going out to shoot like that given in a given month?

SPEAKER_03 12:25

My team we would shoot once a month. I I encourage most teams to be able to get out at least once a month. Uh the standard uh across the board, uh, if you look at like NTOA standards, is uh eight hours of sniper training per month throughout the year. I know a lot of teams that are smaller uh don't always get that amount of time, unfortunately. Uh some may only get four, uh some may uh, you know, and some of your smaller agencies may only get, unfortunately, I've heard of agencies that get 10 rounds per month. Jeez. Yeah, to go out and shoot. So I would hope that they are tracking things like that. It's one thing that I push uh to make sure that they are at least tracking that cold bore shot every single time. Um, but there's a lot of things that go into that too. You you not only do you have cold bore, but then you have cold clean bore, but then you have the cold shooter equation. One of the things that we do is try and put in some dry fire reps to begin with to kind of take that cold shooter out of the equation, if you will. But yeah, normally once a month, unfortunately. A lot of your full-time teams will get to shoot once a week.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

Yeah. But these guys you're talking about, you know, they're they're going out and doing another job and then they're on the sniper team. Right. Yeah. And most guys manpower thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:52

Yeah. Most most teams it's a collateral duty. There's very few full-time teams across the country.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

And when you're saying they're like have eight hours of trading a month, how does that um get scheduled out a day? Like are they out there for two hours on a day or it depends on the agency.

SPEAKER_03 14:11

For us, it's a full eight-hour day.

SPEAKER_00 14:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 14:14

Is how it would work. So we would plan out the day. We we actually would plan out the year and then plan out the day accordingly. So the year would be kind of a general guideline, if you will, and then we would dive deeper on the day, uh, depending on what what that plan looked like for the year, if you will. Sometimes we would need to uh readjust uh depending on where everybody was at with a certain skill. Uh if we needed to kind of take a step back and catch up. Uh, or sometimes maybe we were a little ahead of schedule. So um, but yeah, it depends on the agency. Like I said, we we were given a full eight-hour day per month. Some agencies, you know, I I've heard of smaller agencies throughout the state that they're just given time during their shift to go out and shoot, uh, similar to their lunch break, if you will. So um, which is very unfortunate.

SPEAKER_00 15:11

Right. So what makes a piece of gear professional grade, in your opinion?

SPEAKER_03 15:16

How well it holds up, how well it performs, do you have any malfunctions out of it? Obviously, there there's certain pieces of gear that are built specifically for uh the sniper, but there are also pieces of gear that we can use that, you know, like for example, the Kestrel. Kestrel's used across the board. I would call that a professional piece of equipment. But then you have certain rifles that where I would look at, they are geared and designed for what we do. They're built with a certain barrel length, they're built with a certain uh certain poundage on their trigger pull, things like that. Again, not to beat a dead horse with the AI, but it actually has a full firing pin block built into its safety. It's got three safety positions. So if I'm in a position that all of a sudden becomes compromised, if you will, rather than completely unloading my gun to move my position, I can bring it back into that third safety position, which is a true firing pen block. Now I can move position and not have to worry about any of that. It won't let the bolt come up. It won't the trigger won't uh fire, none of those things. It's just a purpose-built platform.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

Good tool for that guy to have up there where he's you know, just flip a switch and I'm out of the game. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:46

Absolutely. What are non-negotiables uh when you were evaluating and then you ultimately adopted those action accuracy international rifles? What you you can't move on these?

SPEAKER_03 16:57

I'd say for me, it's gotta be one of the first things I look at is can we adjust the stock of the gun to fit each shooter? Uh, you know, again, back when I first started, we had to take, you know, pieces of foam and build up cheek pieces and things like that. For Christ's sake, in 2026, we shouldn't have to be doing that, right? I should have an adjustable length of pull, I should have an adjustable comb height, um, and preferably tooless. Um, I know that's not always the case, but preferably toolless at this point. Um, I like a folder for a couple reasons. Two, it lets me make the signature of the gun smaller if I have to throw it in a pack and move. Um, the other thing is, is now when I go to clean the gun, I don't have to move the comb height of my gun to be able to take that bolt out. So now I'm not readjusting that every single time I clean the gun. I know that sounds kind of lazy to some people, but once I get that position set, I don't like to readjust it. I like to be able to leave that set in that position and not have to not have to move it at all. Um, because again, now I've got to take time, readjust that. I mean, we can put paint marks on it and get it close. But it won't be exactly no, it's not. Um the other thing is uh magazine fed, um, which most guns now are. We don't have the the floor plates anymore. Um, but magazine fed, those are two big things for me. Um those are uh or three things rather. Those those are those are non-negotiables. And then the other thing I look at is our are suppressors. That's a that's another non-negotiable. We've got to be able to add a suppressor to the weapon system.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

Why are suppressors so key?

SPEAKER_03 18:49

Uh the biggest thing is is uh not just our hearing, but every time that gun goes off, you're basically getting a a micro TBI, especially in law enforcement where we're dealing with urban hides or vehicle hides. So we're in an enclosed space. So we're really getting that concussion when the gun goes off. Um so to me, that's that's a non-negotiable. It's it's an insurance policy for for your people. Uh, we didn't realize that obviously years ago, the the health effects of what went on every time that gun went off. But there's too much research out there now to to ignore it. And on top of that, it allows us to communicate with each other by keeping that signature down if we were to have to take a shot.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

So less for sound reduction and more just to control that concussive blast of the round leaving the barrel?

SPEAKER_03 19:46

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 19:47

What separates equipment that performs in testing from equipment that survives years of duty use?

SPEAKER_03 19:53

That's a very good question. Um there are things that they can kind of make it by for you know a week or so of testing or you know, even a month or so of testing, but then in the long haul, you'll you'll see it start to fall apart. And that's everything from you know backpacks to again rifle parts, scopes, scope mounts. One of the things that I look at is, you know, the quality. This may sound a little arrogant, and I don't mean it to sound that way, but when I would call a company and ask them to send a piece of equipment for us to test and evaluate, if they wouldn't do that, to me, that piece of equipment is off the table because I'm I'm not gonna go buy a car without test driving it. So why would I trust my life or my teammates' lives to a piece of equipment that I'm unable to test? Our budgets are tight enough that how can I justify spending money on something that I know nothing about?

SPEAKER_00 20:57

Right.

SPEAKER_03 20:58

So I would call other teams, talk to them, see what their equipment was like, what they were using, reach out to, you know, other people that I knew, not only on on other teams, but in the industry, kind of get some feelers, uh, see what was there, see what was holding up, what wasn't holding up, why it wasn't holding up, and kind of go from there, if you will.

SPEAKER_00 21:22

So not just taking the promotional material at face value and saying, oh, oh, it's super rugged, but like, um let me go talk to some other guys. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

It's kind of the only way to find out some of that stuff, like especially for optics, you know, yeah. You take an optic out, you shoot it for like a month, everything's great. But then like what is what's that gonna do six months down the road?

SPEAKER_03 21:41

Right.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:42

Yeah. Um, for example, uh another instructor I know, uh, he shoots a certain optic. I'm not gonna name names. He's got enough relationships he could shoot any optic he wants. And I asked him one time, I said, Why, why do you shoot that particular optic? And he's like, It's bomb proof. He named an optic. That he had shot during a competition and had accidentally knocked it over, didn't think anything about it, went to the next stage and was four mils off the target. Obviously, that's a competition. In our world, that's completely unacceptable. That's a liability. So he reached out to this company, asked them some questions. They sent him an optic, and all of his guns now run that same optic because of the fact of he's beat the hell out of it and he can't bump it off zero. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

There's some things you can control. You can try not to bump your, you don't want to like just smack your scope around on everything. Correct. But things are going to happen out in the field.

SPEAKER_03 22:37

Trevor Burrus, Jr. Right. Operationally, unfortunately, things happen, and you need to be able to trust that that piece of equipment is going to hold up to that.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

Aaron Powell That word of mouth from a guy you trust where it's like it failed this one time is more valuable information than all of the doodads that a scope can do, like ever.

SPEAKER_03 22:55

Absolutely. And you can tell me the scope's got the best warranty in the world. That really doesn't mean anything to me. I would rather not have to use that warranty. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

You're not going to be in the mood to use that warranty after the fact. Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

If you use the warranty every single time you buy an optic from them, doesn't mean that it's a high quality optic. It just means they have a really good warranty program.

SPEAKER_01 23:15

Correct. Trevor Burrus, So let's talk about that since we're on optics. So like what are we looking for and how many like bumps is it going to need to take in a given day? Like are you moving it around from car to car all the time?

SPEAKER_03 23:27

Or so for me, I would always um I always carried my sniper rifle on patrol with me. I did carry it in a hard case, but it was in a hard case in the back of my car, so it bounced around quite a bit. Um now, did I abuse it? Absolutely not. Right. But it did take, you know, going over railroad tracks at high speeds. It was, you know, in a few chases, it did and in a few accidents, and it held up every single time. But did we intentionally go out and abuse things? No. Right. Did I, you know, go out and use it as a hammer? No.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

I was just gonna say that. Right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:08

Yeah, you see certain commercials where they do that. Would I do that? Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

No, but it's gonna take some abuse just naturally. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

So if you hear somebody say that, you know, this one, I had an issue with it, it's like, okay, well, I can't afford that. So Right.

SPEAKER_03 24:24

Absolutely. And to me, it it doesn't matter how much a scope costs, the most expensive one may not be the one that holds up the best. You know, the other thing I look at when I look at a scope is the quality of the glass. Is it gonna do what I need it to do? Um, for us, we need it to be able to, you know, look into the shadows. Some scopes do that better than others. So those are things that that we look at as well. How how good is the glass in there as well? Um, and how well does it hold up?

SPEAKER_00 24:56

Outside of glass and the durability or reliability of that scope, what what other characteristics of an optic matter when you're in those high stress situations?

SPEAKER_03 25:07

How well does it track? I mean, it does it track true. Does it are my turrets true to what they say? Gonna age myself a little bit. But I remember, you know, the original Mark IV turrets, one of the things that you would do is go past the point of where you want it to go and then come back down, and then you would tap it with a shell casing if you could to let it settle. I don't want to have to do that every time, but they were notorious for that. Thank God they fixed that problem. That's just modern machining, you know. And I don't know of any modern scope that has that problem. But, you know, if that scope says one mil, when I turn it to one mil, I want to know it's one mil. Right. Um, so those are things that I I look at as well. But like I said, the you know, the other thing that I look at, what's the quality of that glass look like? Uh and again, you have to spend a lot of time buying glass to really notice a difference. Um, and the best way I can tell people to to kind of pick that apart is look at it in different environments. Look through shadows or glare on the windshield of a car because that's some of what we do. Um, or you know, residential glass or look into the shadows uh on a tree line. Does it cut through those shadows? And again, some optics do that better than others.

SPEAKER_00 26:36

I didn't realize how much that played into picking out a good optic. I I have one uh that was given to me, and it they're like, oh, there's dust in between the tube. It's unusable. And I look through it and I'm like, this is great. Like, and they're like, no, no, here. And they took me to a specific spot and like, okay, look out at that section over there. And it was super apparent at that point.

SPEAKER_02 26:57

Right? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

It's it's stuff that you don't think about, especially if you're just using it for punching holes in paper.

SPEAKER_03 27:02

Yeah, I have a pair of uh laser range finding binoculars that are have a spec up in the corner. Uh a buddy of mine gave to me. Uh, he worked in the warranty repair department at an optic company, and uh actually told me a guy turned them in for repair, and it was cheaper to give him a new pair than to tear these completely apart. You have to look really close to see the spec, and to the point I don't even notice it. Everything else functions fine, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

How does that factor into your role as a a sniper or sniper instructor if it's just like a small little dust up in the corner? Does that make you question the whole system as a whole?

SPEAKER_03 27:44

If it's on an optic, like if it's on a scope for a rifle, I'll send it back. Um if it's on a set of binoculars, not so much. I I really won't worry about it. Those are more for observation. Um, but when it comes down to something that, again, I have to depend my life on or somebody else's life on, yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna send that back and get that problem resolved.

SPEAKER_00 28:11

From a principal standpoint, what absolutely must be right in a rifle system before you start adding anything else?

SPEAKER_03 28:19

Everything. It it's gotta be one unit. I mean, everything's gotta be one unit. The trigger's gotta be right, the action's gotta be right, uh, the barrel's gotta be right. It's it's just it's gotta function as a unit.

SPEAKER_00 28:34

So as a whole, it needs to be solid before you you don't even customize one piece over another piece. It's how can I get this entire system to work at the most optimized Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 28:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 28:48

So we've talked a little bit about this when we're talking about the the 6-5 Creedmoor, but what role does ammunition consistency play in a professional environment?

SPEAKER_03 28:58

To me, it's huge.

SPEAKER_00 29:00

I mean, I'm assuming departments aren't loading their own routes.

SPEAKER_03 29:04

No. No. Um to me it's huge. Uh, you will see, unfortunately, in some law enforcement lines of ammunition, you'll see some high uh SDs or standard deviations. In the law enforcement world, your average distance is 59 yards for a shot. However, where we are at out here in in the Midwest, I know for a fact our state patrol is taking shots over 300 yards. So that's where those low SDs and that accuracy really comes into play for me. We have to be as accurate as we can be. Again, that ammunition has to work together with that rifle as a unit to be as accurate as we can be. The old adage of one MOA accuracy, to me, that's unacceptable. We better be looking at a half. And that's, you know, with the shooter, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

How do you select your ammo or or prepare for using certain types of ammo then?

SPEAKER_03 30:10

One of the things that we look at is ammunition that's going to expand, if you will, once it hits its target. Back in the 80s, 90s, early 2000s, the standard was federal gold medal match. Yes, it's very accurate. However, it overpenetrates. Overpenetration causes several issues, not to include the liability of you know hitting something behind your target, but the fact of if we overpenetrate, that means our bullet didn't expand. It's not doing its job, which means now unfortunately that suspect is still in the fight. So now we're putting more rounds into that target, which is a bad optic, right? It looks bad on TV when we start, or bad to the media, I guess I should say, when we start pumping more rounds into something. So we look at ammunition that is law enforcement driven. And there are several companies out there that make ammunition specifically for law enforcement. And ideally, what we look at is, you know, an open-air round, meaning there's no barrier between us and the target. And then we look at a barrier round that would go through barriers such as glass or you know, a car door, things like that. You should uh ideally have both. There's no one magic bullet.

SPEAKER_00 31:38

Right. You're trying to ideally you're trying to transfer as much energy from that bullet to your target as possible.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

Yes. What are some of those bullets? So, like let's let's talk about your open air and your barriers. What are two bullet styles that you can pick for those, like right now?

SPEAKER_03 31:55

Um, for example, Hornaday has the the tap line. So they have the Amax and the ELD in the tap, which are both your open air rounds. Uh they both expand very well, do a great job. They're both accurate rounds as well. Um, and then they make a barrier round, uh, which is now their CX round. And it's a very good barrier round uh for going through glass, it goes through uh residential class, business class. Uh it performs very well.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

What are some of the characteristics of that barrier round you're saying?

SPEAKER_03 32:33

It's a solid copper round.

SPEAKER_01 32:34

So it's a solid copper. Does it have anything on the nose like that's you know specific to punching through things or it's got a uh because you hear all about like uh well I can't remember what that round was. It has like a cross in in the tip of it, you know? It's the extreme penetrator or something, something or other like that.

SPEAKER_03 32:50

Oh, I know what you're talking about. I can't think of the name of it.

SPEAKER_01 32:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:54

Um No, it's got a polymer tip. Okay. Uh just like your ELD or your A max round would.

SPEAKER_01 33:01

But it's a solid copper projectile. More mass. Correct. Yeah.

unknown 33:06

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

It's not deforming as much when it hits that first.

SPEAKER_03 33:10

No, there's no lead in it to deform. So that's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

So so um it's definitely piqued my interest. So you so you get guys rolling around like with a magazine of this and a magazine of that, and it's case-dependent kind of situation.

SPEAKER_03 33:24

Aaron Powell So the way I teach it is to actually have your barrier round as your top round on your magazine. That way we're not trying to swap magazines.

SPEAKER_01 33:34

I love that. That's really interesting. And then um I don't want to cut you off or anything, but then would you just rack it?

SPEAKER_03 33:41

Yeah, so if I don't if I don't need it, I just rack it out and then go to my open air round.

SPEAKER_01 33:45

That's so much smarter than what I was saying.

SPEAKER_03 33:48

It it's a training issue. Um we have to train it. Um, but it's a lot easier than trying to fumble with two different magazines, especially at nighttime. Mm-hmm. Things like that.

SPEAKER_01 34:01

Yeah. So you just got it ready to go. It's in the gun. Yes. And it's it's just gonna be case dependent on one you know, small movement. Correct. Cool. Yep. Very smart.

SPEAKER_00 34:11

High stress environments. I mean, trying to keep track of uh which mag do to have loaded in, or we're trying to get that next mag with like the the barrier penetrator on it. Yes. I can see where you're just trying to uh uncomplicate things as much as possible. Correct. Where do guys usually typically overcomplicate their setups?

SPEAKER_03 34:34

I think the biggest thing is guys want to carry too much gear because they want to play the what if game. Well, what if I need this or what if I need that? I just retired three weeks ago and towards the end of my career, probably the last five, six years, I just became a minimalist. What do I absolutely have to have right now?

SPEAKER_00 34:56

The non-negotiables.

SPEAKER_03 34:57

Yes. And for me, obviously it was a rifle, a magazine, and a tripod. I can get started with that. Those are my must-haves. Anything else, I can have somebody else bring it to me. Now, did I have it in my car? Sure. Right. Right? You know, I had everything in a pack that that I needed. Um, but my must-haves right now, my rifle, my magazine, and a tripod. Those were my non-negotiables. Makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 35:26

I guess like so towards towards the end of your career though, did you see a lot of newer guys coming in and they've got all the high speed stuff and maybe they're overprepared? Maybe what were some of those things that it's like, hey man, you probably don't really need this.

SPEAKER_03 35:40

They had like every shooting bag you could find at a PRS competition.

SPEAKER_01 35:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 35:46

For me, just give me a Armageddon gear schmedium bag. I can do everything I need with that. I can use it on a bar barricade, uh, I can use it as a rear bag. I I just need one bag. Right? Yeah. But again, that's time, you know, time and training. Just things you gotta work through with guys. They wanted to have, you know, the biggest backpack they could find, which that's fine. But eventually you gotta go. Hey, you don't need all this room, you don't need to carry all this weight. So sometimes you let them go for a little bit. Oh, okay. Learn that lesson. You know, let them figure out that ounces equal pounds, right? And then you just kind of sit them down and have a conversation. Hey, what do you absolutely have to have?

SPEAKER_01 36:34

And they'll start ripping through stuff fast after that.

SPEAKER_03 36:36

You know, hey, we've had a few call-outs now. What have you used? Right.

SPEAKER_00 36:41

And is that the mentality you use when you're trying to determine if something's an enhancement versus a distraction? Yeah, pretty much. Just what what's happened in the past or these last years?

SPEAKER_03 36:53

Yeah, yeah. Where where have I been? What what have we done? What have I used? What have I haven't used? What would be nice to have? For us, one of the things that we did a lot uh being in Des Moines, we did a lot of overwatch uh on election years. I think one of the biggest advancements that I've seen that that would be beneficial is the uh weapon-mounted laser range finder because you never know when you're gonna change a position, when something might happen in somewhere that you don't expect it to happen. I think some people look at it as a crutch. I just look at it as an extra tool. I think that's probably been one of the biggest advancements out there that would be beneficial to us.

SPEAKER_00 37:38

Is there a point where chasing incremental performance actually degrades judgment or confidence?

SPEAKER_03 37:44

Absolutely. Absolutely. I've I've watched guys on the range that want to chase their zero all the time because they want to get so finite where in reality, you know, for example, they're a tenth off. Well, that tenth can be having a bad day, wearing different clothes than I wore last month, you know, any minute thing, different lot of ammo, right? You know, so on and so forth. And some of them will let that get in their head. Just a tenth. Oh yeah. Snipers are a different we're a different breed, man. Close enough is not in your dictionary? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. But you have to learn, you have to learn your weapon system. You have to learn, you know, when it's necessary to make an adjustment on that and when it's not. For me, I would wait three or four months to and see if I saw a trend. Now, if I saw a trend, then I would make an adjustment.

SPEAKER_00 38:44

Now it's time to address it.

SPEAKER_03 38:46

Right.

SPEAKER_00 38:46

But if it's just uh like two weeks out of the year where you ran into the issue, you wouldn't sweat it.

unknown 38:52

No.

SPEAKER_03 38:52

Tenth's not enough for me to be getting worried about. No.

SPEAKER_00 38:57

Yeah, you guys are a different breed. Like I would be happy, happy to be within a tenth of an inch every single time.

SPEAKER_03 39:05

Some days it's not good enough.

SPEAKER_00 39:08

Uh, you maintain, you said this before, that uh those working relationships with the ammo and accessories and gun manufacturer are key. How important is that feedback loop between the end user in the industry, specifically when we're talking uh ammo?

SPEAKER_03 39:25

Uh it's very important. Uh for example, uh, a couple years ago I was teaching a class in Utah and a couple of the guys were were shooting uh six arc. At the time, I wasn't very familiar with six arc, and we were having a grouping issue. I literally picked up the phone on the spot, called out to Hornaday, and I was like, hey, this is the issue that I'm having. Can you walk me through this? It was a magazine issue. They were running, what, 20, 26 round magazines? I was told, have them run a 20-round magazine. Rather than the curved magazines run a straight magazine. Once we changed that, their groups tightened up because the curved magazines were having a feeding issue, which was causing their grouping issue. So those relationships are very important. Had I not been able to pick up the phone, make that phone call, and ask that question, I'd probably still be standing there scratching my head.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

Be going down the wrong rabbit hole or trying to adjust the wrong thing.

SPEAKER_03 40:29

Yeah, because it was something I just I wasn't familiar with.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

That's wild that a magazine would cause grouping issues. What are what are other things that you might run into where it impacts your accuracy and the cause is something that you would never never would have imagined before?

SPEAKER_03 40:49

Bullet seating, seating depth. Um I've had rifles that will shoot lights out with federal gold metal match, but then you stick like Horner Day Tap in there, and it opens up to a minute, minute and a quarter. Well, now you start playing around a little bit and doing measurements, and the federal gold medal match isn't seated as far into the casing as the uh Hornaday Tap. So now it's further into the lands and grooves of the rifle, which again took me, you know, almost 20 years to figure these things out and seeking out advice from different gunsmiths that I knew, different barrel makers, and wanting to understand these things. I didn't want to just be the guy on the range that scratched my head. I wanted to understand why this is doing this, um, which again goes back to those relationships. They're very important.

SPEAKER_00 41:50

Do you find any pushback um or hesitation when reaching out and asking questions? Like you're just kind of being a pain in the butt to these guys asking questions that nobody else is asking them?

SPEAKER_01 42:03

No, I've never had that problem. Yeah, you don't really strike me as the kind of guy who would have that problem.

SPEAKER_03 42:10

No, once you explain to them this is why I'm calling, you know, this is what I'm doing, this is why I'm calling, this is why I want to understand this. Most generally they're they're very happy to talk to you.

SPEAKER_01 42:23

I would hope they absolutely value your input on being out there and actually trying it in these different scenarios that maybe they haven't. So I'm sure probably all manufacturers would welcome that information 100%.

SPEAKER_03 42:34

Yeah, I like I said, I I've tried to, as an instructor, understand as much as I could understand. Uh to me, it's I strive to always be a student as well. I mean, I even tell my students though, I don't have every answer. I never will, but I know where you'll find the answer. And if they have a question that I can't answer, I'll I'll get them an answer. And you're learning along the way as well. Absolutely. I I strive to learn something every day.

SPEAKER_00 43:03

What's something that you've changed your mind about over the years?

SPEAKER_03 43:07

Barrel cleaning. I used to be that guy that you know you had to clean it spotless every single time you went and shot. Now it's about every 300 rounds.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

Oh, okay. That's something uh the last episode that we were on, we had uh Caleb Savant on, and he kind of started to get me thinking about that is yeah, you can go out and clean that barrel and have a spotless barrel and ruin the accuracy after that first shot.

SPEAKER_03 43:35

If you're gonna clean it spotless, be consistent with it and do it every single time, and it won't affect your accuracy. But if you're gonna let it continue for three, four, five, six hundred rounds, then clean it spotless, yes, it will affect your accuracy.

SPEAKER_00 43:54

Can you explain that to me? Like I know nothing about firearms on why that makes a difference.

SPEAKER_03 44:00

Where would you like me to start? So if if you whatever your whatever your cleaning method is, as long as you're consistent with it, that's the biggest key. So again, if I if I start out from the beginning and I clean that gun every single time I shoot back down to the the raw metal, if you will, then I'm consistent with that. And that's what that gun looks like every single time. It's going to shoot the same way every single time. But now if I go in and I let you know the copper fouling build up and it gets used to that, I can do one of two things. I can bring it to a point to where I've still got accuracy, and like I said, 300 rounds-ish. Or I can shoot it all the way to the point I start having degradation in my groups and I start losing that accuracy, then clean it, which I wouldn't recommend. But if I take it to that 300-round point and then I clean it all the way down, now I've got to start building some of that back up because it likes having some of that copper in there to feel comfortable, if you will.

SPEAKER_00 45:08

I love how you describe it so organically, like it's a it's a living thing.

SPEAKER_03 45:12

It is a living thing, more or less. You should be one with your rifle. Just kidding. But you have to start building that back up. What you would hear is fouling your barrel, if you will. All right. Which is gonna take you anywhere from 10 rounds to 40 rounds, depending on your gun. So it all just kind of depends. Normally, in between that 300 rounds, I'll go in and clean the carbon out. I just won't clean all the copper out. So I'll clean the carbon out, I'll clean uh the chamber out, I'll clean my bolt up, things like that, make sure it functions.

SPEAKER_00 45:53

So it's reliable reliably.

SPEAKER_03 45:55

Absolutely. And to me, it really hasn't made a difference whether I've cleaned it every single time or whether I clean it at that 300 round mark.

SPEAKER_00 46:03

Which is saying a lot from a guy who chases minute of or half MOA all day long.

SPEAKER_03 46:10

Yeah. So for example, last week, uh I was at a class last week and didn't clean my gun the entire week. We shot over 400 rounds. I didn't lose any accuracy the entire week.

SPEAKER_00 46:22

Some of that lore that's been just passed down word of mouth, like, oh, you have to clean. You have to.

SPEAKER_03 46:28

Correct. I think a lot of that though is modern barrel technology as well. So and modern powder technology. It's just not as dirty as it used to be.

SPEAKER_01 46:37

Yeah, you're you're basically feeding it like, you know, super high octane jet fuel with the kind of just keeping that consistent ammo all the time. It's not corrosive, you know. Right.

SPEAKER_00 46:45

What's a hard lesson that you learned about equipment that shaped your philosophy? Either teaching or being behind the gun in the field.

SPEAKER_01 46:55

Tim's always like this too. He lets you get comfortable and then just out of left field. Is that it?

SPEAKER_00 47:00

Yeah. Keeping on your toes.

SPEAKER_03 47:03

Um I would say proper maintenance, you know, proper sort levels, you know, make sure the things that need to be loctited are loctited. If you don't stay up on those things, they are going to let you down. They are gonna come loose, and they are gonna come loose at the most inconvenient moment. So I always recommend at least quarterly going through and checking those torque levels. Because they will. They'll back off, they'll get loose, and again, it's gonna happen when you don't want it to happen, and then you're gonna scratch your head and you're gonna go, why am I shooting all over the place today? And it's not gonna be you, it's not gonna be the ammo, it's gonna be, you know, your scoop, your scope's coming loose, or you know, your action screws are coming loose, something like that. So those are those are hard lessons learned.

SPEAKER_00 47:58

So you you'll go back through your like scope rings and your action screws and test them quarterly to make sure that they're absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 48:05

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 48:06

Are there any other components that you would go through or recommend checking torque on as well?

SPEAKER_03 48:11

Those are the biggest ones. Um if you have you know a night vision rail, anything like that, go through check that as well. Um those are probably the biggest ones.

SPEAKER_00 48:23

How do you prevent gear from becoming identity instead of utility? If that's even a problem. Is that a problem with with some of the guys in the it can be?

SPEAKER_03 48:34

Um because they they'll see such and such shooter or whoever using this piece of equipment, and they think, I've got to go buy that, because if I buy that and I use that, it's gonna make me a better shooter.

SPEAKER_01 48:49

And they're right.

SPEAKER_03 48:51

They are. Um again, do your research, and there's nothing wrong with trying new equipment. Um, I'm probably the king of that. Uh, but again, I'm also that guy that'll I will sit and watch a piece of equipment for two, three years before I go buy it as well. I'm not gonna jump on the train as soon as it comes out, but I'll watch it, I'll see what it does, I'll see who's using it. And by that I mean not necessarily competitors, but like different instructors and what they teach and how they're using it and if it's holding up, right? Or if they're just using it because somebody's paying them to use it. And I'll kind of go from there. And if I see some value to it, I'll buy it, I'll try it. And if it's if it doesn't work, then it goes in a box on the shelf in my garage.

SPEAKER_00 49:44

Heart spin.

SPEAKER_03 49:45

Yeah, absolutely, right? I will never put it in front of a student if it doesn't work.

SPEAKER_00 49:51

Wrapping up here, what's one piece of advice for new precision rifle shooters that you would give?

SPEAKER_03 49:57

Don't go out and buy, you know, the most expensive rifle on the planet. Don't go out and buy uh the most expensive scope on the planet. Invest in training first. If anything, you know, get with some buddies that do this, see if it's something that you even enjoy first. But go take some classes, invest in the training, invest your time there. If it's something that you want to do and and kind of progress with, then make sure you're asking the right people before you're spending your time and your money because this is a very expensive hobby or sport, and you can go down that rabbit hole very, very deep. Trust me. I know from experience.

SPEAKER_00 50:42

Experience talking?

SPEAKER_03 50:43

Absolutely. You know, there's nothing wrong with you know coming in here to Brownell's and buying a rifle off the shelf. There's plenty of guns in here that'll shoot half minute all day long and getting some experience behind it first.

SPEAKER_00 50:57

If you had to sum up professional gear in one sentence, what would that sentence be? Reliability. Love it. It's even better. One word. Well, KP, thanks for bringing your experience and perspective to the Ram room. If you enjoyed today's episode, share built to last with someone who cares about performance over trend and discipline over decoration. As always, ready, aim, fire your comments or questions to built to last at brownhells.com. Remember, if it's worth carrying, ensure it's built to last.