Modern Ammo: Misconceptions, Challenges, & Expertise

What separates a good handload from a great one? How do modern reloaders stay consistent when components, technology, and ammunition demands continue to evolve?

In this episode of Built to Last, Tim and Steve sit down with Gavin Gear, founder Ultimate Reloader for a discussion into modern ammunition reloading and the tools to be successful.

Gavin shares lessons learned from years of testing equipment, evaluating components, and helping shooters get the most from their ammunition. The conversation explores what it takes to build reliable, accurate handloads in today's environment, from selecting presses and dies to managing powder, primer, and brass availability. Gavin explains how technology has changed the reloading bench, where automation makes sense, and which fundamentals still matter most regardless of the equipment being used.

Tim, Steve, and Gavin also discuss the challenges facing today's reloaders, including component shortages, changing market conditions, and the growing interest in newer cartridges such as the 6.8x51mm (.277 SIG Fury). They examine how precision shooters pursue consistency, why quality control matters, and how reloaders can approach load development with confidence.

Whether you're just getting started at the loading bench or have years of experience chasing tighter groups and better performance, this episode delivers practical insights on equipment selection, component management, accuracy, and the future of ammunition reloading.

If you're interested in building better ammunition, understanding modern reloading technology, and learning from one of the industry's most trusted educators, this is an episode reloaders won't want to miss.

This podcast is for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice. Please speak to a qualified firearm professional for any industry-related questions or decisions. The views and opinions expressed in this episode are solely those of the host and guests and do not reflect the official policy or position of any company. This content is intended for audiences 21 years or older. Viewer discretion is advised. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:02

Welcome to another episode of Built to Last with Brown Ells. Today's guest is Gavin Geer, founder of Ultimate Reloader, one of the most recognized ammunition and reloading education platforms in the firearms industry. He's based in Washington State, and Gavin has spent years testing presses, powders, bullets, brass, and precision loading techniques across thousands of rounds and countless rifle builds. Through Ultimate Reloader's YouTube channel, website, and hands-on testing projects, he has become a trusted voice for both beginner and advanced reloaders looking for practical information backed by data instead of internet rumor. Gavin has collaborated with major manufacturers across the ammunition and reloading space while helping educate a new education of reloaders entering the hobby during one of the most volatile component markets in modern history. Today we're talking about the state of reloading, component availability, modern cartridge development, precision loading details, and what the future of ammunition could look like. Gavin, welcome to Built to Last with Brownells with uh Steve and Tim.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Thank you so much for having me. This is gonna be fun.

SPEAKER_03 1:06

So, for those of you, I I'm assuming most of our listeners know who you are, know what you do. Um, but for those of our listeners who might not be as familiar with Gavin um with you or the ultimate reloader, how would you sum yourself up in like uh a quick like elevator speech?

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Well, I'm an engineer, I'm a mechanical engineer that loves to learn. And as we'll talk about, you know, that's how I got into all of this. Uh, but I also really enjoy uh they breaking down complex topics in understandable ways for people, uh, trying new things. Uh I'm definitely a big gear head, so my last name gear definitely fits quite a bit. And uh I just love to share. So, what pulled you into reloading uh at the beginning? Well, I was in the market for a sidearm for hiking. I decided on a 44 Magnum. I started going to an indoor range weekly. That was when I lived in the city, and I very quickly realized that my shooting was outpacing my budget. So it was an entirely practical consideration. How can I shoot a couple boxes of 44 mag a week at the range with friends? And I started off with a very modest budget. I had a Lee Pro 1000 press, three station. I went straight to the progressive. Uh, I used Lemon Pledge for case loop, stole that from my wife. And so I really did achieve savings initially, that is, with with reloading. And that led to the obsession.

SPEAKER_03 2:44

So it sounds like you are in bear country. If you're taking a 44 mag along when you're hiking, is that correct?

SPEAKER_01 2:50

Absolutely. Yeah. And now, now that we've moved out to the country, uh, we see bears all the time. And I have I have stumbled across a mother with her cups before in the dark. This was all silhouettes that I saw. Uh and and I uh even with a sidearm turned around and thought, I don't, I don't need to get into this. So it's it's a very real and practical thing.

SPEAKER_03 3:13

How did Ultimate Reloader evolve into such a trusted industry resource then? Was that kind of an accident or do you plan on that to happen eventually?

SPEAKER_01 3:21

It was completely an accident. And specifically what happened was that first Lee Pro 1000 press uh I soon outgrew its capabilities. Uh, in terms of the quality, in terms of wanting more stations to separate the processes and enhance the adjustability, I decided I wanted a five-station press. And at the time on YouTube, there was very little information. Uh, someone had put together kind of a white paper comparing, I think it was the Lee Load Master, the Dillon XL650, and the Hornity Lock and Load AP. I read that, I still had questions, I deliberated. If anyone's bought a camera system with chain interchangeable lenses, they know how much analysis paralysis you can get into. And and progressive presses are just like that because you're buying into a system. Uh, it's hard to visually understand what's going on until you get into it. And um, I decided on the Hornady Lock and Load AP, started to post videos to help other people. Again, this is in 2007. So we're talking about the the early days of YouTube. It had been around for a year or two at this time. Wow. And I shared some some engineering feedback with Hornady. They were receptive. They sent me a couple t-shirts and a case feeder, and I thought, nice. Well, this is fun. Like, you know, I'm providing value to people out there. Um, I'm engaging with the industry, I'm a mechanical engineer, so they they appreciated the feedback. And then I decided I would film every single five-station reloading press. So that at the time was the uh RCBS Pro 2000, the Dylan XL650, the Hornity Lock and Load AP, the lead load, the Lee Loadmaster. So that kind of I thought if someone is in this quandary, they want to buy a system, I'm going to provide them videos with everything. And then I started working with each of those companies and and then did an AR-15 project building a rifle. Then I decided they wanted to chamber my own rifles. And and here we are now where you know I'm building the ammo, I'm building the rifles, and then we're shooting out to a mile. We were just doing two one mile shoots, one with 300 Norma Mag and one with uh 375 ShiTac yesterday on our own property. So it's been it's been quite a journey, and I absolutely love being able to fiddle with the dials and the knobs on everything. Love the manual machining, love loading ammo, experimenting with new components and powders and everything. So I'm just having a blast and and people respond well because I'm I'm answering a lot of their questions around which products to buy and which cartridges perform well. And it's all it's all data driven. So that that is literally my mission in life is supply people with with great data so that they can mean it, make informed choices.

SPEAKER_03 6:05

That's one thing I really enjoyed about reading about how ultimate reloading got its start is you were just curious on like how this all worked, and nobody else had anything out there that showed the difference between the the different manufacturers, and you're like, I'll I'll do it. And it just kind of blew up. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 6:23

Yeah, and it was very modest at the beginning. I remember uh a tape-based uh mini DV camera, I think it was less than HD, it was S D 360p or whatever it was at the time. I had a headlamp strapped on my head, looking down into the case feedbowl, up on a stepladder. I mean, it was low-tech, but but it did provide information and and it's just been a process of kind of in like I'm sure you guys at Brown Ells have done every year. Well, what new technology can we use to make great videos and and and do great audio and and be more of a professional? So I I kind of accidentally became a video pro, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 7:00

So let's pivot into the reloading part of it. What misconceptions do newer reloaders still have today that you kind of encountered at the beginning?

SPEAKER_01 7:09

I think the biggest thing is that it's too hard to do. I think people feel like this is overwhelming. This might not be safe. Uh, I can't do this. And and really, it's all about taking it one step at a time, making sure you have good data. You know, maybe you can find a friend or a channel like mine to help you through the process. And and in the end, you really can do it.

SPEAKER_03 7:33

They get a little caught up in, I need to know all these details and all these different specs for every ammunition that's out there, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's the same thing in the in the rifle building world. I've talked to machinists that would say, Oh, you know, chambering a rifle, maybe that's too too complicated or something. And it's really not. You just have to pay attention to what you're doing and and make sure that you're not making any big mistakes that could cause a safety issue.

SPEAKER_03 8:00

Yeah, because I I would assume making mistakes like if you are doing a drawing, hey, no big deal, you just erase it, you know, start over, you're you're fine. You make a mistake in loading, you know, uh ammunition a little too hot, not using the right components, and now you have uh an explosion happening just inches away from your face.

SPEAKER_01 8:18

Yeah, and and Steve, I'd I'd love to get your input on this. You know, some topics and and scenarios are more sensitive than others. I'll use reloading 45 ACP as an example. Your bullet seating depth, even 10, 20, thousandths of an inch, can have a huge impact on pressure.

SPEAKER_00 8:36

Oh, sure.

SPEAKER_01 8:37

And, you know, that's a that's a safety concern, and it's an easy mistake to make. And and and that's maybe the exception rather than the rule. But what what's your take on that, Steve?

SPEAKER_00 8:47

Well, that's absolutely true. Uh even uh getting the bullet driven into the case because of a faulty feed ramp or something can happen and you won't even be aware of it. It doesn't even have to be your fault. You could almost be you could be using factory ammo and not if you don't catch it, then I mean I don't know this from personal experience or anything, but I've had some hot loads go off when they weren't crimped properly.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

Yeah, like revolvers and recoil, uh driving the bullets out towards the forcing cone, another similar scenario. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

Exactly. Binding up your cylinder. Yep. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 9:19

How much bad information still circulates online regarding ammunition and reloading? Has it been pretty well, pretty much vetted, or do you really have to be careful with your sources still?

SPEAKER_01 9:30

I think when it comes to things like load data, most of it is good. And so, you know, you have to you have to really cross-check. I'll give you an example. Yesterday I was loading six by 47, which is essentially a wildcat. You take a 65 by 47, you nick it down. And as a consequence, there's not a lot of data. And I'm testing a new bullet that's heavier than most six millimeters. And so I found some anecdotal information. And what I had to do is cross-check it with whatever information I had on hand. So I looked at 6 GT and I looked at 65 by 47, and I had to make an educated decision, you know. So for the most part, you can go out and buy a reloading manual or go to something like Hodgson's website to get the data, and they'll have a bullet seating depth, and they'll have a powder to use and a charge weight and a primer, all of that. And so if you follow the formulas, there's enough factor of safety built into modern handguns and rifles where you don't really have to worry. But if you get off the beaten path, you just have to you have to be a little bit more careful.

SPEAKER_03 10:40

Is your uh perspective like you take baby steps in that kind of uh scenario, just trying small changes at a time or instead of just jumping right in?

SPEAKER_01 10:50

Yeah, the general rule is to start at 90% of max or at the published starting load, and then to just generally work up. And you in this day and age, no excuse not to use a chronograph. So you're looking at velocity, what am I getting compared to what they published? And then you're inspecting the case, looking for any kind of signs of pressure, like a case head swipe or a flattened primer, those sorts of things. And uh, you know, the sometimes if it's a complete unknown, you risk either being too fast and over pressure, or maybe sticking a bullet in the bore. Those are both possibilities. Uh, I've encountered both of those. Sometimes, sometimes on purpose. We recently blew up an AR-15 that was a six-arc. We pushed the projectile to 4,730 feet per second, which is the the bullet blew up, the rifle blew up, and and we did it as an experiment. But what we saw ahead of that, we basically made the six arc into a belted magnum. If you inspected the case, where where the the bolt is, uh it's a little oversized, and the case actually was a little plastic there. And so usually you will get warning signs, and usually if you follow the basic rules, you're just fine. Nice.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

That's what they used to do back in the old days. P.O. Ackley and guys like that would go to destruction on different cartridges and different uh platforms.

SPEAKER_03 12:18

So then you know where your your top end is.

SPEAKER_00 12:20

They wanted to know where an O3 Springfield would blow up or uh, you know, any other kind of gun.

SPEAKER_01 12:25

It was uh Yeah, like like proofloads.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

Yeah, exactly. Steady diet of those will set you back.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

That's for sure.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:34

What separates knowledgeable reloaders from people just copying the like internet recipes?

SPEAKER_01 12:40

I think it's education and data-driven analysis at the end of the day. So I like to get as much information as possible. And then, you know, everybody has to make their own conclusions, is kind of what I feel like, you know, with precision rifle reloading, people will talk about uniforming flash holes, cleaning primer pockets, they'll talk about you know, uh neck turning, they'll talk about all these things that that may or may not be an issue. And sometimes, you know, this this world of precision rifle is still one rifle prefers this, another rifle prefers that, and no one really knows why. So, you know, educating, observing, documenting, and and ultimately finding what works for you uh is is gonna be the thing, and and to not make assumptions about other people. I guess maybe that's uh uh more to your question.

SPEAKER_03 13:36

Okay. Uh let's talk about components. Uh, especially I've heard a lot of talk around uh getting powder. Uh, people are kind of freaking out about getting pro powder or primers. Um, how do you manage getting consistent powder or a consistent supply of powder or primers?

SPEAKER_01 13:52

Yeah, I I kind of have an in with some of the retailers and the manufacturers, so I guess that's kind of cheating. Um we just wanted to hear you say it out loud. I know, I know. Uh I I think the current state of affairs is better from a supply standpoint than it has been like during COVID or after Sandy Hook. Okay. But prices are not super good right now. So that I think is probably the biggest challenge. You could probably buy powder primers, but you might not like the prices. For instance, when I started reloading a an eight-pound canister of H4350 was probably $80 or $90, and now it's $600. Oh my gosh. So that that hits people hard, especially people that are in a modest budget, which typically comprised a good percentage of the reloading community, the people that might have cast lead bullets and used low charge weights, and you know, they could enjoy shooting all day, recycling lead or getting old wheel balancing weights or something like that. That's a little bit harder when it when a big canister of powder is 600 bucks, you know. Right.

SPEAKER_03 15:03

Are there any challenges uh that the modern reloader is facing with kind of the current geopolitical climate right now? Or is it mainly just the the pricing part that's the keeping people away?

SPEAKER_01 15:15

I think our our wars right now, specifically like the Ukraine war, over looking over the last few years, have affected certain products, uh like shell casings from certain manufacturers in in Europe, that kind of thing. Um, but I I do think the main the main problem is price and perhaps driven by the war consumption.

SPEAKER_02 15:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:39

I'm not totally sure on that.

SPEAKER_03 15:41

You get you're competing with governments and countries for the same commodities.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

Yeah, and it's it's easy to see why war war supply gets prioritized because it's kind of a do-or-die thing, right? For some countries, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:56

Uh what opportunities exist for reloaders if they're willing to adapt a little bit?

SPEAKER_01 16:01

I think the biggest thing is to think ahead, like it always has been, you know, to look for deals and potentially uh quality over quantity. Okay. I think this is where if you're a hunter and you're a reloader, you're probably in a better position because you know, I'm going to Africa, I might need 50 rounds. Whereas if I'm going to uh and that might be a two-week trick, right? Right. I'm going to PRS match, I need 200 rounds for one weekend. Right. There's a big difference there. So, you know, the the cost equation is going to hit some people a lot harder than others. That makes sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:41

When you can substitute components, what mistakes do you need to be careful of uh staying away from or not making?

SPEAKER_01 16:50

Yeah, I think when it comes to bullets, solid copper projectiles handle pressure differently compared to cup and core projectiles. So cup and core would be a copper jacket with uh a lead core inside. There are certain considerations around your rifle's chamber. There are considerations around how far the bullet travels before it engages the rifling.

SPEAKER_02 17:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

Uh in terms of the pressure curve, because the copper bullets uh conform less readily to the rifling, you know, compared to cup and core bullets that are softer, I guess you could think of it that way. So if you're gonna substitute a copper bullet for in place of uh a lead cup and core bullet, the the copper bullet's gonna be longer and that's gonna eat up your case capacity, and then the pressure characteristics are gonna be different. So you might want to look at low data that's specific for that projectile. Okay. When it comes to powders, you can't assume that just because two powders are adjacent to each other on the burn rate chart, in other words, inside the rifle's uh chamber, they're gonna burn with similar characteristics, pressure, velocity, that they're gonna perform equivalently. There are things like the temperature sensitivity of the powder to consider for unknown reasons. Sometimes one powder produces much more accurate ammunition than others, and so it still becomes uh the specific load data situation. You have to be very careful uh to not just directly substitute load data and experimentation, right, is key to find the combination of components and the load data that that your specific firearm likes the best.

SPEAKER_00 18:39

Okay, yeah, and not all those uh burn charts agree with each other all the time. Right. Some sometimes uh powders will change positions relative to each other, depending on who put it out, what cartridge they tested it in, and and so you know, so on. So many variables.

SPEAKER_03 18:56

It's not uh an exact one-to-one type of thing.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

Right.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

It it doesn't work that way. And you'll hear guys talk about one lot of a powder was faster than another lot, or one was consistent and another one wasn't. So it's truly tons of variables that you're dealing with. Like wine vintages. Yes. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 19:18

Yeah, and I I got some some questions around lots and uh tracking those and how important that is, and in just a little bit we'll talk about that. Um, but before I get there, I'd really like to get your perspective on the whole caseless ammo discussion. Is that ever going to come back or is it making it a comeback now?

SPEAKER_01 19:37

You know, I don't have a lot of data on that, but it doesn't seem practical to me. Um, I've read about certain caseless cartridges, and it's fascinating, but it just doesn't seem it doesn't seem like uh a scenario that could pan out in the same way.

SPEAKER_03 19:54

It's just not gonna grab or get legs and and take off like everybody's kind of talking it up like it will.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

Yeah, I don't know. Like have you guys been hearing much about caseless? Because I I'm not seeing it a whole lot.

SPEAKER_00 20:07

No, I think HK has pretty much abandoned that.

SPEAKER_03 20:10

Oh, did they? Okay.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

Yeah. Every once in a while somebody will develop something, it'll it'll peak for a few years, it'll trend, you know.

SPEAKER_03 20:17

Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:18

And then uh, but if HK couldn't make it work uh viably, nobody can.

SPEAKER_03 20:23

That's fair.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

So I think what we've got is muzzle loader, right? And I I just made my first foray with a CVA endura, which is a really interesting firearm. It's it's more like a B14 center fire rifle. And what what surprised me about the project was that you could use smoke modern smokeless powders with a muzzle loader now. So if you're if you're uh a hunter that is is very you know keyed in on a particular hunting season around muzzle loader, we were impacting a 12-inch plate at 706 yards with this thing. Oh wow, and that was 45 caliber. And so when when I think of caseless scenarios, that's kind of where my mind goes because of the relevance with the hunting, you know. What we did is we took 30 out six cases, filled them with the powder, put a foam earplug in there to cork it off, and then just uh dumped them into the funnel. And we were using Vitavori uh N120, and it it worked great. Uh, I put a trigger tech Remington 700 diamond trigger in it, set at seven ounces, and I had a 50 power F-class scope on it. I was not joking around. Nice, very fun project.

SPEAKER_03 21:40

That was one of my first experiences with uh how important measuring out your powder grain is. Uh, I did some speed loaders for a muzzle loading deer season back when I was in high school, and I shorted it and took my first shot. It was a beautiful shot. You couldn't ask for a better shot, and you could see the ball go out. And it smacked the deer in the side. It jumped and it took off. And it was in the wintertime. So there was a little bit of snow on the ground. And I went over there. There wasn't a speck of blood. But that deer probably had a big old bruise on the side of them. Um and pulled the the next speed loader and re-weight or re-uh checked the powder. And it was definitely short. Oh wow. Yeah. Live and learn, right? Details matter. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. What's your take uh like with modern cartridges? What's your take on the 68 uh by 51 and the 277 Sig Fury from a reloading perspective?

SPEAKER_01 22:37

Well, I'm hoping to get hands-on with that cartridge. I haven't yet, but it does dovetail nicely with some of the projects that we worked on, uh, specifically with alpha munitions over the last couple of years. So some of our testing has involved, and you know, I talked about blowing up the AR. That was uh sort of pushing six arc beyond uh it was well into the upper limits of six creed more, you know. And and you're up there at 80,000 plus psi when you're doing that kind of testing, again, under very closely controlled uh conditions and very not something that someone should try. Uh, but we also pushed 308 into 300 wind mag territory and did also did a a 6 GT story along the same lines, testing pressure with a pressure port and a and a transducer. So I think personally the the higher pressure scenarios are very interesting. And with proof research announcing PXT last week, did you guys see that announcement? I did not. No.

SPEAKER_03 23:50

Tell me more about that.

SPEAKER_01 23:52

So it's proof exponential twist. Uh, I was traveling with Ray Helms from the X-Ring channel, and he he had actually had been hands-on with it. And uh I dropped a video the day of the launch, I think it was last Wednesday. And the whole idea is with these really high pressure cartridges, if you start off with almost zero twist, I think it's one in 200 when the bullet starts moving into the rifling. And then uh you have this exponential gain twist formula inside the barrel, you might exit with one in eight or something like that. It takes that pressure peak and it stretches it way out uh along the length of the barrel. If you if you think about pressure over distance. So what they're advertising is uh less torquing. You know how when you shoot uh a rifle and it can it twists basically the opposite direction is the rifling.

SPEAKER_03 24:48

Right.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

And they're also looking at approximately double the barrel life because you don't have the throat area taking the brunt of that high pressure with a slower build. And then also increased accuracy because in PXT they've also incorporated a hybrid rifling profile. And this is all secondhand. I don't have first ex first hand experience with any of this, but that type of technology has been used in, I understand, Gatling guns like air-to-air type stuff for a while now. And so if you take the shell casing technology and you take this new barrel technology along with these high-pressure cartridges, we're just about to start working with seven backcountry here at Ultimate Reloader. In fact, the ammo is getting delivered today. I think most people agree this is where everything is heading. So I'm I'm eager to get hands-on with it and uh eager to build rifles with this new game twist technology and the whole thing. And um, you know, we've shown some amazing results with really high quality brass, but yeah, the hybrid case technology will should be really interesting to work with.

SPEAKER_03 25:58

Are hybrid cases practical for civilian shooters?

SPEAKER_01 26:02

That is a good question. I think it depends on what you're trying to do. You know, that the seven backcountry is centered around an alloy steel case that is one piece, as far as I know. And so it's pretty practical for factory ammunition. Okay, and I understand it is possible to reload, but there are some very special uh reloading die and process considerations, which we'll be getting into shortly. So I think the jury's still out for me on that, okay, but more data coming.

SPEAKER_03 26:39

Interesting. Uh, when we're just talking about some of the modern cartridges, what are some older or niche calibers that you think deserve more attention from reloaders as uh possibilities?

SPEAKER_01 26:52

Oh man, I could go in so many different directions with this. Uh I think my take on it is that this catalog of modern cartridges that we have covers pretty much everything that you're gonna need. And so when I think about you know antiquated cartridges, I think more about the firearms that they're chambered in.

SPEAKER_03 27:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

Uh the 762 by 54R from the Mosin Nagant, for for instance. I I once had a a Russian co-worker when I was in the the tech industry, and he was just obsessed with free-floating his sparrow and and doing a little trigger job on his Mosin and hand loading the ammo. And you know, he had lop well cases and all that. And we both shot five eighths inch groups at 100 yards with this thing. That's awesome. So, you know, yeah. Uh, and so things like that, you know, make me think, you know, I have a particular obsession with the weatherbees for some reason. You know, I I have all of the PRCs, but there's something about that double radius cartridge design, something very special about the the Weatherby uh Mark V, uh German and Japanese manufactured rifles. It just gives you that feeling, you know, and it's it's something different.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

If you go back and read some of those Weatherby catalogs that Roy used to write, I mean, the the Weatherby cartridge is unparalleled in the world. It's the best in the universe.

SPEAKER_03 28:27

According to him.

SPEAKER_01 28:28

Yeah. Yeah. Uh first time I shot my 270 Weatherby at a steel target, I I thought I hadn't hit it, but it had merely pierced it. Oh, wow. And not even moved it. Yeah. So I had three a three-shot group in steel.

SPEAKER_03 28:43

Holy cow.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:44

What what uh what velocity is that cooking at then?

SPEAKER_01 28:47

I think around 3,000, 3100, maybe. I would have to go back and look. Yep, which is good for that type of bullet. That's wild. And not good for steel unless you go up to three, four, or five hundred yards.

SPEAKER_03 29:00

Our range supervisor would have me running laps around our entire range if I did that to his steel targets.

SPEAKER_01 29:06

Yeah. One of the antiquated cartridge explorations I want to go down is the World War II bolt action collection. Okay. Yeah. So 1903 Springfield, uh uh Mosen Nagon. I have to give me Kagan. I have a 1941 manufactured one of those, but uh Air Saka, German Mauser. And, you know, just learn about the cartridges, uh, load them, shoot them. Oh, I also have a 6.5 Carcano. So I guess I have I have two of the bolt guns from World War II. Yeah. Uh, but it's all about celebrating the experience, trying to vicariously figure out what it was like back then, you know, through through modern components, I guess. And uh always trying something new. I mean, that's really what reloading allows you to do is to try infinitely new things.

SPEAKER_03 29:58

Tweak this here, tweak that there, give it a shot and see what kind of uh performance upgrades or maybe the performance upgrade you thought you were gonna get doesn't pan out.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

Yep. Yeah, people ask me when are you gonna run out of video ideas? And I tell them never. I'm I'm not even close to getting started with all that there is to talk about, you know.

SPEAKER_03 30:17

What's the most ridiculous cartridge that you've ever worked with?

SPEAKER_01 30:20

That's easy. It's just straight up the 50 BMG. It's it's not practical ballistically. Uh, you've got a 250 grain powder charge, which is 10 223s if you're gonna pour 223 charges into it, uh, 750 grain bullet and just massive eye rattling recoil with the brake, you know, like it's just a shockwave. So when I want to get ridiculous, I I pull out the 50 BMG.

SPEAKER_03 30:55

So uh let's talk about reloading fundamentals and some precision details. If someone wanted to just get into reloading today, they don't have any experience uh before with reloading. Uh, where would you suggest they start before making any purchases?

SPEAKER_01 31:12

I think to start by really thinking through their near long-term goals. You know, if it's if it is a competitor, I've known PRS competitors that have shot factory ammunition only. Uh, that person, I would probably give different advice compared to someone that was going to reload hunting ammunition, for instance. Okay. And then there's the self-examination. How mechanically inclined am I? If you're mechanically inclined, you might want to start like I did with a progressive press. Whereas if you like to keep it simple, if these concepts seem foreign and difficult, then start with something like a turret press or a single stage press, something like that. But watch videos, you know, do research. Uh, we're going to be coming out with courses, paid courses on our on our website. And that will be the goal there is just organize all of the best information into one place and provide a start-to-finish flow, you know. But there's there's so much good information out there now that there's no excuse to not do it.

SPEAKER_03 32:22

So I've had similar people come up and be like, Oh, I want to build my first AR. What should I buy? And it's sounds like it's you give them the same advice, like, well, what do you want to do? Like, is it depending on what you want to do, how you want to accomplish that, that's gonna determine what gear you invest in right off the bat.

SPEAKER_01 32:40

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 32:41

What equipment matters the most for beginners?

SPEAKER_01 32:44

I think the press is an investment that that you're gonna want to think about, uh, because that's sort of the heart of the reloading process. I think the load load manuals, different load manuals have different takes on information. I'll give you a couple examples. Uh Lee Precision has a book written by Richard Lee, and he covers uh reduced loads in great detail. Okay, so you're not going to find that information in in other manuals in the same way. Hornady does a great job uh with specialty load data. For instance, in the 223, 556 class, they have 223 data, 556 data, and service rifle data. So depending on what you're doing, you'll find you know more granular information. And if their main goal is to sell bullets, right? Right. So if you're a Hornady bullet consumer, you'll find all of the information in their loads, specific, you know, cartridge overall length for your bullet seating depth and performance data. And it they really do a great job of supporting their products of that way. But you could also, if you have a 168-grain 308 load and you're using the same type of bullet, you can exchange that load data. It's a cup and core bullet and you're going to go from one brand to another. So it's not like they're completely locking you in, but they're definitely providing a great first-hand experience there. Uh, it's, I think, very important to have a really good scale because uh going back to our 45 ACP example, if you've got a five grain powder charge, the difference between five and five and a half grains is 10%. Uh, and that the sensitivity and accuracy of the scale is gonna be is going to be really important there. If you're working up precision loads, you might have the same needs and requirement for a good scale there. In any case, it's gonna help you ensure that you're on the right track and are loading safe ammo.

SPEAKER_03 34:51

So there's no such thing as close enough when you're coming to reloading?

SPEAKER_01 34:55

I think there really is, actually. Oh, okay. That's potentially a myth. All right, I think, is you know, if you're hunting deer at 100 yards and you're within the uh between min and max, is it gonna matter if your powder charge is off by a full grain? You know, normally we obsess about one-tenth of a grain. Absolutely not. It's not gonna make a difference at all. So it really, again, is about again going back to what are you doing and what are your requirements and goals.

SPEAKER_03 35:27

Okay. So you mentioned progressive reloaders. I'd like to get your perspective on like what are the pros and the cons of a progressive reloader? That's been my only experience with reloading. And I didn't set up the progressive reloader myself. I had somebody else already set it up for the the bullet and the ammo that we were trying to create. Um, I found it really easy to crank out ammo, but what's your perspective on progressives?

SPEAKER_01 35:51

I think progressives can vary widely. Okay. Uh they can have from three stations, like I mentioned, my first press, all the way up to 10 stations. There are at least two presses now that have or brands actually that offer 10 station reloaders. So when you get into the more complex equipment, it's more for high volume reloading. Okay, because there's a lot more setup time and there's a lot more investment in the equipment, and it's just it is all more complex. And then there are also quite a few presses that are progressive that are really easy to use as well, like the Dylan RL550 is a four-station press. And you can use it like a single stage if you want. I mean, you can with most of them. Uh, but then when you get into wanting to have a bullet drop station and having a powder check station and having separate seating and crimping stations, then you're going to run out of stations. So it again maps directly to am I a pistol loader and am I optimizing this for 200,000 rounds a year, which competitive shooters can easily consume? Or is this a ballistics lab and I'm loading 10 cartridges at a time or loading 20 hunting cartridges at a time. All of the equipment for the most part can do the same job, but uh you'll find it's going to be more affordable, slower, but easier to get used to a single stage or turret setup, at least initially.

SPEAKER_03 37:33

And then you have to keep in mind the manufacturer that you're using as well, because I'm assuming a lot of these aren't interchangeable with different manufacturers.

SPEAKER_01 37:42

Yeah, if you're in the single stage or turret side of the equation, almost everything interchanges. You're going to snap in a shell holder and you're going to screw in dies. And 90% of reloading dies use 78 by 14 threading. And so almost all of them work together. Uh now we're seeing inch dies, inch and a quarter dies. And if you go up to 50 BMG, inch and a half dies, you know that that's kind of like the corner case scenario. But I just upgraded to one inch dies with the reading ultra mag press, and all you have to do is spin off uh the bushing that's screwed onto the top of the press, and you can very quickly switch it to one inch from seven eighths. So nice. It's it's all about you know what you want to do. But by and large, single stage turret, easy to exchange equipment between brands. When you get into the progressives, you have proprietary shell plates, you have, in some cases, uh die station locator buttons like what Dylan has. You have special case feeder parts. And so what you'll typically end up doing is buying something like a caliber conversion kit, and you might spend a couple hundred bucks on a caliber conversion kit. Wow. And then if you go from a 6CT over to a six creed more, you might just make an adjustment, or you might need a different case feed adapter uh where the case gets inserted. So the combination of different parts and pieces with the progressive, if you reload 10 cartridges plus, can become quite significant. And that becomes a big part of your inventory and upfront investment.

SPEAKER_03 39:25

So you'll see people when I'm out at the range, uh the the brass goblins going out and picking up the brass and taking it back because they want to reload it. But when I'm out there shooting some of my Mill Surp ammo, I never see anybody fighting over that. Uh, why is military uh case reloading worth the effort that you have to put into it? And could you explain the amount of effort that you have to to put into uh reloading a military case compared to like just your standard brass case?

SPEAKER_01 39:54

Yeah, so I think there's two big considerations here. One is the type of primer that's used. So some military SKUs of ammunition use what's called Berdan primers. Those Berdan primers use two flash holes that are off-center. All conventionally reloaded shell casings use boxer primers that have one flash hole in the middle, right? That's where the decapping pin goes in and pushes the primer out. And so if you have Birdan primed cases, I believe a lot of 762 by 39 comes that way. And a lot of it is steel, which is not right really reloadable as well. Uh, people will argue on that point. Uh, that's throwaway brass, in my opinion. People reload it just to say they can, but uh, yeah, you want boxer prime brass. You're gonna have to be careful about crimped primer pockets, specifically on Military 308 and Military 556. So after you poke the primer out, you need to either swage, which is to push the brass out of the way, or ream cutting the brass ring that holds the primer in before you'll be able to put uh a new primer in. So that's one consideration. All that around primers. The other bigger consideration is machine gun chambers. So I've got a bunch of military 762 by 51, i.e. 308 brass, and the the machine gun chambers are so much oversized compared to a 308 bolt-action civilian rifle that it's literally nearly impossible to size it back down, even with a small base die. And when you anneal brass, you're softening it, but you're only softening the neck and the shoulder area and a bit of the body. It doesn't soften the area at the base that's super thick and gets deformed when it's you know fired out of a uh a machine gun like that. So it's all about knowing what you're picking up at the range and picking your battles, I guess. I I I'd love to hear your feedback on this, Steve, because I know you've probably encountered this too.

SPEAKER_00 42:09

It's the same thing with Glocks in the 40 caliber. You know, they've got that little bulge and you you run them through one of those reading bulge buster dies or whatever they're called, the GX die, I think it is, GRX, and they work just fine. But Reading says don't use them for max loads after that with good reason. Interesting. It's been worked, you know, the the brass has been worked just a little bit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:32

So I've noticed I have a MP5 clone, and every time it's got that fluted chamber, and then the way that it ejects, it'll flatten that one side of the case. Is that kind of a similar type of thing where you could probably, if you had to and you wanted to throw money away reloading nine mil, um you could do it with it.

SPEAKER_00 42:50

You could load it, but it'll never be be pretty again. Right.

SPEAKER_01 42:54

Yeah, that's uh that's an interesting comment because you'll also find a lot of semi-auto rifles will dent the case neck, um, like the the AR, you know, it'll hit the case neck and you'll have a a flat spot. Not a big deal because when you when you size the brass, it'll straighten that out. And then if you the the bullet also will straighten it out. So it's all it's knowing about what to look for. Like I think Steve's comment around the the Glock bulge and knowing that that's gone plastic and has to be pushed back, and it won't be once it's yielded like that, it won't be the same. I know when you manufacture cases, you're trying to get the case head area as hard as you can so that it will retain the primer and and there's a lot of pressure back there as well. So if you're firing it into glock with an unsupported chamber, that's also part of the equation, is that it's unsupported, right? So if your strength is gone and things aligned poorly, I'm imagining that could be a safety issue in itself.

SPEAKER_03 43:57

So what I'm hearing when it comes to military counter. Calibers is can it be done? Yes. Is it worth is the juice worth the squeeze? Probably not, unless you're trying to just get bragging right saying that you've you've you were able to do it. Is that accurate?

SPEAKER_01 44:12

Yeah, and I think you get more variation in case wet weight and case uh wall thickness as well. So if you're if you're trying to do anything precision oriented, any kind of mixed head stamp scenario can be challenging.

SPEAKER_00 44:28

But if you just want plinking ammo for your AR, you know, the military brass is fine if you've got more time than money and you want to do the primer pockets and all that. I've done it. Absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:38

All right.

SPEAKER_00 44:39

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 44:39

So when I was talking to some reloaders and prepping to talk to you today, Gavin, they wanted me to bring up neck turning. Like what exactly for those of you or for those of our listeners that are like myself that aren't as familiar with reloading, what is necturing and why are some reloaders hesitant to necturn their brass?

SPEAKER_01 44:58

Yeah. So necturing is one of those interesting things. And honestly, when you consider the interface between the neck area of the chamber and the neck area of the brass, I've heard wildly different things from people I respect. I'll just start by saying that. Uh, one of those anecdotes was uh I was talking with Eric Cortina, who's an F-Class shooter, a pro shooter, and he said, What we've seen on target, and on target is what matters, obviously, is that really tight clearances between the the brass and the chamber in the neck area is not what you want. So you could say, I'm gonna have a tight neck in my chamber and I'm gonna turn turn the neck down so that it just slips in and there's not a lot of rattle room, right? Eric is saying, in his experience, that doesn't help. So that's kind of like a myth busted situation.

SPEAKER_02 45:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 45:54

Uh so the fit is is one consideration for that. I think the other consideration is case neck thickness uniformity. In other words, if you took a tubing micrometer and you measured the thickness all the way around the neck, say at 90 degree intervals, so you have four data points, you want to see very little variation there because if you have thick brass on one side and thin on the other, your bullet is off-center. And when it engages with the rifling, it's now cockeyed. And if the bullet exits the bore and it's wobbling because it's not axially aligned with the bore axis, obviously that's a problem. You're gonna have shot dispersion, you know, from that. So I do pay attention to neck thickness uniformity, but I think like a lot of things with modern components, things have gotten a lot better.

SPEAKER_02 46:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 46:48

And, you know, if I'm within a couple tenths, as in one ten thousandth of an inch, um, I'm happy with that. And so I haven't done much neck turning. I've shown it on the channel, I've I've reloaded with it, I've talked about you know, neck sizing bushings and sizing for those based on your neck thickness. And I think it's mostly the bench rest guys and the F-class guys that are gonna obsess there. And I think they do have reasons to, but for most people, it won't make a difference. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_03 47:19

Gotcha. Another one of those uh how much time do you have to invest in it?

SPEAKER_01 47:24

Yes, yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 47:26

Yeah, because when you start neck dream or neck sizing like that, you want interchangeable bushings in your dies to match whatever die whatever thickness you're trimming your brass to. You know, the the the uh reading dies with the interchangeable bushings that come in different sizes, you know, one thousandth increments. Yeah. That's that's so you get the proper tension that you want for that particular load.

SPEAKER_01 47:48

Yeah, so you'll you'll need to have bushings on hand based on what neck turning diameter you decide on, right? It becomes right.

SPEAKER_00 47:56

And how and how many times your brass has been fired, how springy it is, yeah, and how much neck tension you actually want. Is it gonna go in an auto feeding rifle? Is it gonna go in a bolt action single shot, you know, very gently into the chamber? It's a rabbit hole.

SPEAKER_03 48:11

Absolutely, so much details and like they factor in in so many different ways that I didn't realize, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 48:17

So if you buy one bushing set like that, you know, or one die set that takes bushings, or you're gonna wind up with you know a dozen bushings at some point because it's just the way it works. But guys love their rabbit holes. Yeah, yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_03 48:33

Speaking of rabbit holes, and I've I've encountered this with some of our folks who work in a warehouse and uh some of our sales guys, or uh even some of our gun techs on our uh gun tech line, but they'll have people calling in because they want the bullets uh that they're buying and the brass that they're buying, the lot numbers to be matching or very consecutive, um, not uh completely off. Does that really matter in the grand scheme of things?

SPEAKER_01 49:00

You know, interesting. Interestingly, I'm not probably the person to ask that because unlike a lot of people, I will build a rifle, I will do some initial load development, I'll shoot 20 rounds, and then I'll build the next rifle. Okay, or test the next press, or move to another power, or test a new bullet. I'm not the guy with the one gun that you have to really worry about, as in like the old West saying. I think the guys that compete are gonna have much better, like I'd be curious to hear what F-Class John would say on that. He shoots a seven PRCW in F-Class, and he shoots burger 180 bullets, though the hybrids, seven millimeter. And he I know he shoots uh uh Vitaburi N555, known as triple nickel. He's probably shot so much of all of that that he could talk about Lapo brass consistency, he could talk about lot to lot differences in Vitaburi powder. Oh wow, and maybe even the the burger 180 bullets, those things that is literally the magic bullet, by the way. If you have a seven millimeter and you want a really good shooting bullet, definitely try 180 hybrids.

SPEAKER_03 50:12

Good to know. I'm gonna be talking with a uh PRS guy here on our next episode. So I'll bring up the uh bullet in brass lot number question up to him and see what his perspective is on that as well.

SPEAKER_01 50:23

I do know for sure that with rim fire ammunition, 22 LR and the deep dive things that people do there, the the lots definitely matter there.

SPEAKER_03 50:33

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 50:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:34

So what it sounds like is consistency is what a lot of people are looking for. And would you say that's what really matters for a lot of these reloaders is just the consistency portion, not locking that down?

SPEAKER_01 50:48

That is absolutely my goal. My my ultimate dream with a rifle is I get a load that the rifle likes. I shoot it on day one, it performs great. I shoot it on day 12, it performs great. I shoot it a year later, it performs great. And that that is, I think, what most uh precision shooters are chasing is I want that consistency. I want to know that I can depend on the my rifle and the ammo so that when I go to shoot a match or go to take that long-range shot at an elk, I have complete confidence. Which makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 51:24

Steve, you look like you're wanting to say something there.

SPEAKER_00 51:26

No, consistency is great, but every time I get a gun tuned in where I where it shoots really great, being a gunsmith, I lose interest in it immediately and go to the next one.

SPEAKER_03 51:36

It's boring at that point.

SPEAKER_00 51:38

Yeah, if it shoots too well, then I don't want it.

SPEAKER_03 51:43

This is too dependable.

SPEAKER_00 51:45

I need something that requires my tender loving care, you know. Love it.

SPEAKER_03 51:49

It's got a little bit of a a quirk to it that you gotta plan for.

SPEAKER_00 51:52

That's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 51:54

All right, some uh rapid fire questions here for you, Gavin. Just real quick uh answers on your end. What's your favorite cartridge to reload?

SPEAKER_01 52:03

Six-dasher. It's the easy button.

SPEAKER_03 52:07

What's the most underrated reloading tool?

SPEAKER_01 52:10

I would say the Frankfurt Arsenal hand priming tool. It works great, it doesn't cost a lot. Easy to load. What's not to like? Nice.

SPEAKER_03 52:19

How about the most overrated reloading trend?

SPEAKER_01 52:22

Ultrasonic cleaning of brass. Because you don't want your brass too clean. If you remove too much carbon, that's neck lube, and your bullet seating will suffer.

SPEAKER_00 52:32

Okay. Where do you uh where do you sit on the steel pins controversy?

SPEAKER_01 52:36

I've done it and I think it's fine, but honestly, my turn and burn is walnut shell media and a tumbler, uh vibratory tumbler. Right. Because it's fast. Yeah. You you separator takes 20 seconds and boom, we're off and running.

SPEAKER_00 52:52

Doesn't look the best, but I'm always scared that I don't get a pin out of a case sometime and scratch my bore or something, you know. True. I always worry about that thought as well. Yeah. Now those those pins will take rust off of anything. You just throw something in there, it comes out clean at some point.

SPEAKER_03 53:10

If it's not clean, just leave it in there a little longer.

SPEAKER_00 53:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:14

All right, Gavin. Uh, one cartridge every shooter should own, in your opinion.

SPEAKER_01 53:18

I'm gonna say two, two, three, and specifically in a bolt gun because it's just too much fun.

SPEAKER_03 53:23

That was one of my favorite guns to shoot when I went uh prairie dog hunting. Like, is it can you get out there the furthest distance and is it the flattest shooting? No, but yeah, it's kind of fun to plan for you know bullet drop or wind with uh a small little bullet like that, just like just a fast moving 22.

SPEAKER_00 53:41

Yeah, yeah. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 53:43

Uh what's the biggest internet myth in reloading?

SPEAKER_01 53:46

This is kind of hard to pick from, but I'm gonna say primer pocket cleaning because I don't ever do it. So nobody's got time for that.

SPEAKER_03 53:56

Yep. Uh what's one mistake that every reloader makes at least once?

SPEAKER_01 54:01

Well, if you've got a precision powder dispenser, you drain it into your powder jug and then you leave the drain open. And then when you pour the next powder in, it goes all over your bench. Oh, so I'm not the only one. Great. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 54:16

So uh, where can listeners find Ultimate Reloader? Uh, what's what's the best way to reach out to you, interact with you?

SPEAKER_01 54:22

Well, uh, our website, ultimatereloader.com, is a great place to start. We're also on YouTube at youtube.com slash ultimate reloader. And uh, we're also on Facebook and Instagram.

SPEAKER_03 54:33

Awesome. Any projects that you're working on that you're excited about right now?

SPEAKER_01 54:38

Yeah, I've got two big projects. One I announced at the shot show, which is Rifle Builder Pro, which is a software platform and reference library for those that are initially it's focused on chambering bolt action rifles. So documenting the undocumented, uh guiding machinists through the process, starting with manual machining. It's it's it's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00 55:00

That rifle building thing, you know, a lot of machinist forums they talk obsessively about building guns.

SPEAKER_03 55:06

Really?

SPEAKER_00 55:07

Yeah. So you're gonna get an audience there. It's just built in. That's a great idea. Thank you, Steve.

SPEAKER_01 55:13

I do have a question for you.

SPEAKER_00 55:14

Sure. What's your favorite cartridge to reload? Uh it'll be a pistol cartridge of some kind. Um right now it is uh are you familiar with 3844? No, it's a 38 special loaded up to Magnum pressures because it's meant to be shot in a 44 frame of some kind. You know, Smith and Weston came out with that caliber a long time ago for their end frames. Nice. So the police would have more power, but it's also shorter than a 357. And if you use the long Keith cast bullet, you can't get it in a Model 27 Smith. But if you use the 3844, you can get the same performance out of a 38 special case, or very nearly so. And uh by using slow powders, you're well within pressure and what's not to like.

SPEAKER_01 56:05

Very cool.

SPEAKER_00 56:05

I love wheel guns. Yeah, I got a bunch of them.

SPEAKER_03 56:08

Yeah, I was gonna say Steve is our uh in-house wheel gun expert, right?

SPEAKER_00 56:12

Oh, yeah, I got a lot of them.

SPEAKER_01 56:13

I'm gonna file that away. So don't uh be surprised if I email you Steve with some wheel gun questions.

SPEAKER_00 56:18

Okay, 44 specialists second place, easily. Nice.

SPEAKER_03 56:22

Well, Gavin, thanks for bringing your experience and perspective to the Ram Room today. And if you enjoyed today's episode, share built to last with someone who understands that precision matters, consistency counts, and good results never come from cutting corners. As always, ready aim, fire your comments or questions to built to last at brown elves.com and rate and comment wherever you stream this podcast from. Remember, if it's worth building, ensure it's built to last.