How Equifruit Is Changing the Banana Industry, with Kim Chackal

In this episode of Behind the Fruit, Lucy Robinson speaks with Kim Chackal, VP of Sales and Marketing and co-owner of Equifruit.

Kim shares how she moved from event planning into fresh produce, and why she chose to channel her career into something with real impact.

They talk about building a Fair Trade banana brand in a category dominated by global players, what it takes to shift retailer behaviour, and how Equifruit’s rebrand changed the trajectory of the business.

The conversation also explores hiring, emotional intelligence, leadership, and why working long hours is not a measure of success.

A thoughtful, honest discussion about purpose, growth, and building a business differently.

About LCR International

LCR International supports senior hiring across the global fresh produce sector.

We work with businesses where roles require a mix of technical, commercial, and leadership experience, often across regions.

Typical support includes:
 • Retained executive search
 • Talent mapping and competitor insight
 • Org structure and succession planning

If you're hiring and want a clearer view of the market before you start, you can get in touch here:

👉 https://www.lcrint.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I never met anybody that worked in fresh produce before. And when she explained that bananas shouldn't be so cheap and that cheap bananas often come from farms where farmers are exploited and stuck in a cycle of generational poverty, I just had this moment where I thought, okay, this is it.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

Welcome back to Behind the Fruit. I'm Lucy Robinson. How do you challenge a system that's been in place for more than a century? Kim Shacau joins me to talk about leadership, fair trade bananas, and building a brand with purpose. Today's guest is Kim Shacau, VP of Sales and Marketing and co-owner of EquiFruit. So, Kim, before we dive into anything else, could you just give us a quick introduction to yourself?

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Sure. So, as you said, my name is Kim Shacal. I've been with Equifruit for a little bit over 11 years now, based in Montreal, mother of three, uh, obsessed with changing the banana industry.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

Amazing. Thank you. So good to have you here, Kim.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

And tell us a bit about Equifruit as well. Again, just a bit of a um an introduction to Equifruit as a business for those that don't know Equifruit.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Yeah. So Equifruit is celebrating 20 years this year, and we've been on a mission to improve the lives and communities of banana farmers through Fair Trade certification. So the Equifruit is uh the Equifruit brand is 100% Fair Trade certified. We work with growers mostly out of Ecuador, but also Peru, Colombia, and Mexico. And our bananas are the Cavendish varieties, the probably the variety that you've grown up eating. And where we add value aside from getting bananas from A to B, which is quite a cumbersome process, is on the merchandising and marketing side. So we've really developed a brand that's synonymous with sustainability, ethical trade. And we have a very whimsical and um fun way to message around fair trade.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

Amazing. Well, we'll definitely touch on that because I think there's a lot of interesting points that you you've said there that I definitely want to come back to. But let's just talk about um how you joined Equifruit to begin with, because you didn't start as a a co-owner. Um you might you joined within within sales as a sales leader. So um it might be good to talk us through sort of how you came to to enter the company in terms of Equifruit and then how you yeah, how you developed from there. So talk us talk us through through that. How did you start within Equifruit?

SPEAKER_00 2:53

So when I learned about Equifruit, I was working as an event planner for a catering company and prior to that had worked in sales and marketing as well. And I loved my work. I found the challenge of organizing catering and events very fulfilling and very exciting. But we were starting our family, and by the time I had two little boys, the option of working evenings and weekends was impossible. And I was ready for a new sales challenge. And I had this pull, I don't know where it came from, but as I was in my early 30s, I had this pull towards taking my talent for sales and marketing and putting it towards something that was going to have some type of impact. So I was open to any opportunity and really putting it out there to anybody that I spoke to. Uh, I was on a my second maternity leave at the time, and I just thought I have to do something that's going to make the world a better place, whether that's working in at one point I was looking at this organic skincare line run by two women. Uh, I looked at a couple of different options, even becoming a life coach. I just really wanted to do something meaningful. And it was through our children's daycare that I got connected with the owner and president of the company, Jenny Coleman. And when she told me that she had just a year ago purchased Equifruit and that bananas shouldn't be so cheap, and her company was selling fair trade bananas, I was just so curious. I never met anybody that worked in fresh produce before. And when she explained that bananas shouldn't be so cheap and that cheap bananas often come from farms where farmers are exploited and stuck in a cycle of generational poverty, which is why the price seems to never change no matter what's going on in the world. I just had this moment where I thought, okay, this is it. This is the challenge that I've been looking for. If I don't know any, if I didn't know about this, most people might not know about it. And I would like to channel that 15 years of experience that I had at the time and put it towards solving this issue. So I came on as a salesperson and we were just a tiny little team. Jenny had no sales experience. So I taught her everything I knew about sales. She taught me more about strategy and business. And from there, our journey began and the company started to really blossom in the in the met several years after we got together, as we were figuring things out.

SPEAKER_01 5:22

Interesting. So you met, so you both had kids at the same daycare. Is that that right? That's how interesting. So that's how you've met. And then I suppose for you, coming from, yeah, obviously a sales background, but then different industries. What was it like going into the fruit industry at that point, particularly in this area?

SPEAKER_00 5:42

Yeah, it was exciting. It was also intimidating. I very quickly saw that people who were in the produce industry had been in the produce industry often their entire career. It wasn't uncommon to hear that somebody started at a grocery chain stocking the shelves at age 15, 16, and 30, 40 years later, they they were now working in some procurement role. And so there was a it was a very tight-knit community. I remember one of the first things that we did, the first investment that we made was to go to the CPMA, which is a big um, you know, the Canadian Produce Marketing Association trade show here. It was in Montreal. And I just remember seeing so many people hugging and embracing, and they clearly worked worked together for years. And I just thought, oh wow, it's going to take us a minute to kind of penetrate this community and figure this whole thing out. And then, not to mention, you can imagine that we were up against, and we we are up against these produce giants. You know, when you think about who is your competition in this space, most people can't rhyme off the name of a tomato company or celery company, but ask them to name two or three banana companies. Yeah. And you can. So it was intimidating, but at the same time, what really connected Jenny and myself was that we were fiercely motivated to improve the lives and communities of banana farmers. We felt that this grave injustice that banana farmers had suffered through for over a century, all so that we could have prices at an artificially low level, it just seemed unfair. And so we were, we were willing to work through that discomfort to have those conversations, to figure it out, to carve out a space for ourselves and to earn a seat at the table.

SPEAKER_01 7:34

And it must be quite uh challenging to do given the fact that you are new to the industry, as you say, in terms of the you know, the big brands. I mean, for me, I will even uh reference. So when I'm speaking to people who say, What you know, what do you do when I say fresh pro you know in the fresh produce industry? And they have no idea what that means. I'll have to explain to them. And I usually use names like Chiquita, Dole, because they're the big ones people know. It's easy to reference. So I suppose coming in from you know a different sales background, different industry, which now you know is is vastly different to fresh produce, you know, there's uh yeah, lots to learn. I suppose what were the biggest challenges or things that you didn't expect that you had to learn to make that transition?

SPEAKER_00 8:17

Well, there was quite a bit to learn about bananas themselves, how they're grown, where they're grown, uh, what impacts quality, what's the ideal volume to get a viable program off the ground? There were uh there was a lot of learning through errors earlier in the business. And we had such a small volume. I mean, the company was just doing one load a week, which is just barely viable. Uh, so it was really thanks to the partnerships that had been established prior to Jenny coming on board, and then furthered through Jenny and my effort to just stick with us and people who were excited about what we were trying to accomplish. Because, you know, when you have low volumes, quality inevitably does suffer. And so those early years, they weren't the prettiest. You know, we didn't have supermodel yellow bananas. Uh, we learned quickly that fruit will gray if it's dehydrated or if it's exposed to chill. And so there were a number of years of just cringy banana learnings. And we eventually moved through those and we hit these critical um volumes in the different regions that we were distributed in in order for the company to grow and in order for the quality to be um predictable and satisfactory for our customers. And then that that is just absolutely crucial, as you know, in the produce industry. You can have the loveliest story, you can pull at all the heartstrings, but if the fruit doesn't look and taste and feel the way that your customer is expecting it to, they'll move on to another customer so or to another supplier. So we really had to work quickly to um to figure things out and to establish ourselves and to become experts, not just about bananas, but also about fair trade. And the type of fair trade that we have is with Fair Trade International, which you would be familiar with in the UK, but it's it was really not well known in Canada at all. So there was quite a bit of education and advocacy work to be done on that end. So we realized what the gaps were in the market and we got to work and you know, did whatever we needed to do to get the business growing.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

And I'm interested to know. So you mentioned obviously in the first years, you know, they were it was learning about the you know the quality of the product, for example, and how to get it to the the point it needed to be to sell to consumers, particularly given uh I mean, bananas are yeah, arguably, arguably the most commoditized product, I would say, produce. So um, I suppose how did you get to that point where you had to from learning about the the quality of the product and where it needed to be, and also get uh the differentiation in a category where consumers will pay more essentially for a banana, yeah, which they're not they've always paid the same price. So, how did you yeah, how did you get to that point?

SPEAKER_00 11:16

Well, after years of meeting with all of the major grocery chains in Canada and getting their feedback, you know, we were working with one of them at least from the very beginning. Uh, one of the large chains in Canada is called SOBs. And the the Quebec branch of Sobies had really been partnered with the brand almost since day one. Um, you know, we we had to be honest with ourselves about what was working and what wasn't working. And so the feedback that we were getting from customers was that they really admired that we were coming into this space and trying to develop a market, but we also had a lot of cautionary words, like, you know, you should be careful about what you're trying to accomplish. You might upset some big companies out there. And there were quite a quite a few warnings, I would say, early on, you know, and that didn't that didn't slow us down. It didn't discourage us, but it just made us realize, you know, that there's this real sensitivity around price, around banana pricing in particular. As a consumer, I know that I'm willing to pay double for celery from one week to the next, and I will, you know, if I need celery. But there's really just this understanding that banana prices have to stay at a certain level and it's just non-negotiable. So, what we needed to challenge ourselves with was how do we make this messaging impossible to ignore? Because we were being ignored at the end of the day. You know, we were being told that they they valued our tenacity and they were, you know, excited that we were trying to accomplish this very big hairy goal. But it just seemed impossible for people to jump ship from something that was so well established, relationships that had been in place, and to give us a chance on such an important category. You know, bananas are not like, no offense to Jerusalem artichokes, but they were like, or the equivalent, or I don't know, you could put a hundred different produce items in in this other category where people are not buying that item every week, but people really do mostly buy bananas every week. And um we needed to find a way to to make that story impossible to ignore so that people felt compelled to join us in our mission towards global fair trade banana domination. And it wasn't until 2020 where uh, of course, as we all know, the pandemic started, uh, the world changed uh within a couple of months, everything was canceled, and we decided to pour some major resources into fixing all the things that we thought needed fixed. We needed to have a better website and better packaging, better social media, uh, better PR strategy. So we really tore down the whole brand and we worked with an agency to build it back up. And it was night and day before that rebrand and after that rebrand. People still can't believe that we're we've been around for 20 years because for them, Equifruit is only about five years old because they've only seen that new whole banana badass brand in the market for the last five years.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

Yeah, because I have no idea what the branding was like previously. Like I've only seen obviously the the current branding, which is great. It's so colourful and it really stands out. I definitely see some of your posts on on LinkedIn, not yours personally, but the the companies. Yeah. So it's it definitely stands out. I mean, is that was that part of the um the plan to really use the branding to tell the story and to educate people around fair trade? Because that's something that's very new to me in terms of the fair trade for bananas. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

Yeah. Well, what we realized was that I think that our messaging prior to our rebrand was just too B2C focused. We were trying to fuel the fair trade movement, the real die-hards who were out there willing to pay more, talking about bananas at brunch. And what we realized was that the the real decision makers here are the banana buyers or the executives at a grocery chain. It's really a handful of people that need to be convinced to do this because the inverse is just not the model. You don't have from the ground up hundreds or thousands of consumers insisting on a fair trade program. So what we realized was missing in our value proposition was the tools that a retailer needs in order to get the messaging across to the consumer. And so the packaging became so important because that's the key touch point. We offer secondary points of sale and point of sale material, but not everybody will take us up on those things. So if the only thing that they are looking at is the packaging on the bananas, does that packaging articulate that we are paying farmers fairly? And so we had to be, we had to be really clever and succinct to get that message across quickly. So we started to play around with these impossible statements. Even the case of the fruit said the only banana you should buy in huge letters. You know, um, this is like that on my on my mouse pad, you know, the only banana you should buy is really meant, really meant to pique your curiosity and ask why is a banana brand telling me what to do? I don't, I don't, I've never thought about which banana I buy, or I'm not necessarily brand loyal. And so once we realized that we had to get that messaging on the fruit to communicate our value proposition and equip the retailer with the tools that they could merchandise the program properly, that was the real game changer for us. And once they had those tools and they saw that we had successfully launched programs, with every successful launch, the barrier to entry and that risk level felt much more diminished. And especially now in the last four years or so that we've been working with really large brands. You know, we're at 80% of the Costco's in Canada as the organic banana, we're in a quarter of the Walmart distribution centers. Once we started to work with those brands, it gave us a level of street cred so that once we said, okay, well, we work with these brands, they thought, okay, clearly Equifruit knows what they're doing. They're able to get product from A to B reliably, consistently, and at a level of quality that the biggest, some of the biggest companies on the planet are accepting.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Interesting. And I do want to come um come on to that a little bit more, but I just I don't want to skip over the fact that we we started talking around your your uh entrance to the company as sales leader, and obviously then you became a co-owner. Yes, tell me more about that transition. So why uh you made that transition and also what changed for you when you became co-owner?

SPEAKER_00 18:00

Mm-hmm. Well, um, so my initial role was really sales focused, and eventually uh Jenny said she'd like me to also take on marketing. She saw that I had some different ideas. We did some branding stuff early, early in my tenure, and she trusted my instincts. And uh it felt very strange at first. I had I had some imposter syndrome at first, feeling like I'm not formally trained in marketing. How can I, how can I lead this properly? But I think that the experience of going through the rebrand, I had very clear ideas about what I wanted and what I didn't want, and understanding the impact of each decision long term, really being wise with the investment was a great challenge. And I think that that gave me the confidence to know that I could uh take this brand to the next level. We also worked with an incredible agency based in Montreal called Tux that they they really had a vision for our brand. And just I I'm somebody who learns through observation. So just going through the whole process of a rebrand and understanding um really being able to identify why something isn't working is so important to then fix it and then move towards something that will work and will work better. And I mean, I would say that from the very beginning of my partnership with Jenny, just working underneath her, she she's just a joy to be around. She's she's very confident and self-assured. She's very clear, um, a very clear communicator. She has high expectations. I remember my first email that I wrote to a potential customer. She printed it out, took out a red pen, just tore it to shreds. Um, but at the end of the day, it was so that I could improve. And so under her leadership, I I improved. I improved my sales skills, I improved my strata, my strategic thinking. Uh, she pushed me towards professional development. I took an executive leadership course. And at a certain point, as our company was growing, as we were growing as a brand, um, I approached her and said, you know, I've always been entrepreneurial. I've always thought about owning my own business. But I got to a point where I thought, I don't really want to walk away from this. I love working alongside this person. Uh, I love the team that we're building. I'm very passionate about our mission. I'm adding a lot of value. And uh so I approached her about partnering together. And she had actually been thinking of approaching me. So, you know, right uh it was kind of a beautiful moment. And from there, I think that the um the unexpected surprise of us becoming formal partners was, and I I really appreciate that in retrospect, was she had such uh she was so relieved to finally have a partner to build this cut this company with. You know, there's so many decisions you have to make. There's so much weight on your shoulders, and to be able to work along some alongside somebody that you trust and enjoy their company, somebody that can be frank with you and and give constructive criticism and receive constructive criticism and be honest and say when I when you've messed up and be able to apologize, all of those things have allowed us to um to help grow the company and to build a team that hopefully goes to bed on Sunday nights excited to get up the following day and and work with us. We want to grow and build the type of company that we would like we would have liked to work for, especially for the younger people in our team. You know, we we want to model um strong leadership, we want to um, we want to model bravery, we want to model um kindness in business, but working within an ethical framework and and making sustainability the norm rather than the Exception.

SPEAKER_01 22:01

Nice. Yeah, it's a great story. I love, I love the fact that you were both considering at the same time. You went to her and she already had it on her mind. Yeah. And I think it's I under I do understand as well from the perspective of you know running a business and thinking, oh, it'd be great to have someone to help me make this decision. You know, it's it can be tough, particularly as the company grows quickly. So the fact that we both work so well together, you know, it's not something that it's easy to find necessarily. It's easy to clash in certain areas. And I'm sure it's not being completely smooth either, because it never is. So, you know, there's always things where you have to, you might not agree on every single piece, I'm sure, but it's how you deal with any uh, you know, difficulties, for example, or differences in opinion that matters really. Do you agree?

SPEAKER_00 22:48

Uh a hundred percent. At the end of the day, we're both on the same, we're on the same path. You know, as I said, our our our vision as a brand is global fair trade banana domination. We're trying to make um fair trade the norm within the banana industry, not the exception. And we've been able to put our egos aside in many scenarios and say, is this the right thing for the business? Or are you doing your best work? And if not, you know, can we pull out that red pen on each other as needed? Because we because we love each other, we care for each other, and we want to see each other do well, and we want to see the business do well. So I think I think that we have the tools to have, we have the tools for for this strong partnership. You know, I've been married for almost 20 years, I've been working with Jenny for over a decade, and in a sense, it feels like a marriage because we're so committed to building this thing that you know, in the most successful of relationships, you when it's necessary, you need to put your ego aside and just do the right thing.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

And you've both, by the sounds of it, been building this with young families as well. So, how have you, if you don't mind me asking, how have you managed that in terms of managing your time whilst you've got a family as well?

SPEAKER_00 24:07

Yeah. And I had a third little one uh seven, seven years ago, um who kind of rocked my world. You know, I wasn't planning to have her and she showed up enough in my life. And Jenny, Jenny was so supportive. I remember going through that and being kind of uh in tatters for a moment, but she she just she just knew she had the wisdom to know that it's all going to be wonderful one day. It might feel difficult right now, but we're gonna be able to move this through this together, you know. And Jenny has three children of her own. Her eldest is profoundly disabled. And so that's always, you know, that's that shook her world 18 years ago. She has two younger children who are kind of in in line with my children's age. So I think that it the way that it affected us was A, as women of three children, we know how hard it is to be parents. Um, so we have this great level of empathy for parents and the challenges that come from all of the things, from the sicknesses to milestone to school to socialization, et cetera. Um and so we we have that that empathy for for our team. And I think that that's allowed us to build the type of company, like I said, that you'd that you'd want to work for and and be mindful of the needs of our team. Um yeah, that's that's really foundational to us as a business.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

And how have you managed it as well with the um just the long working hours of produce? Is it something that you just have to, you know, pick the kids up and then get back online? Or you've just managed to work it around the your family, around the business, essentially.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

Yeah. This has been a tricky point for us. And I would say, as the millennial business partner, I really feel like there has to be space for time off. And I don't, I don't believe in working yourself to the grave. I don't feel like there's any greater quality of work by working over time. If anything, the inverse happens. And I really don't understand why the produce industry, and this is a this is a kind of a like a conflict that I have with the produce industry, it's a 24-7 industry. I get it. We work with perishables. I'm lucky enough to work on the sales and marketing side where there is, there are moments where things can wait till tomorrow or until next week. And I recognize that when you're more on the operational sourcing side, you you can't just ask the bananas to wait, right? There are miss there are decisions that need to be made after 5 p.m. As much as possible, I like for our team to work within regular working hours and to to build out systems to address those emergencies that happen after working hours or to construct our just to yeah, build processes so that we are not, we're not working over time and on the weekends because I can't. It just doesn't, it doesn't make sense to me. And I feel like the time that I pour into myself taking care of myself, my mental health, my physical health, is allowed it allows me to show up on a Monday morning and be ready to take on those challenges. But I know from previous experience, you know, one of my very first jobs, I was working door-to-door sales, I was eventually running that office. I was in my early 20s, I was doing 60, 70 hour work weeks, and I burnt myself out by the age of 23. So I had that lesson very, very young that even at my, you know, my most energetic in life, where my metabolism and all the things were going at 100%, you can't do that, those hours long term. And so I think it's so important to to identify boundaries. And I've been a I've been a large, um, I've been a uh very enthusiastic and very, very vocal with the team, you know, that I want us to take time off. I don't want, I don't want people to not take their holidays. And when they take their holiday, I expect them to be off and to come up with a plan B or plan C. I always say to the team, if I'm on holiday and there is an emergency that only I can solve, then call me anytime. I'm available to take that call. But it's never happened because that's not how business works. There's there's a team, and eventually when you're at a certain size team, you should be able to spread out that workload and focus on that time off because it's so critical.

SPEAKER_01 28:43

No, it really is. And and from you know, my side, it's it's obviously not the same, but being in executive recruitment, executive search, sorry, recruitment, there is um, it's pretty well known across the industry that people will work ridiculous hours. Like, you know, if you if you leave on time, that's often frowned upon. Yeah. Um and that's the problem. Yeah, yeah. It's like looking at you like, what are you doing leaving on time?

SPEAKER_00 29:07

No, we're all we are all going to die one day. We are all we are all going to die one day. And some of us are going to die within five years of our retirement. And so if we're waiting to live our life once we retire, that's not that's not how things work. If you're feeling good in your body right now, if you are blessed with good health and mental clarity and focus, and if you have loved ones around and they are well and they're healthy, then I'm not saying don't work. Do your work and do your work well and organize yourself to be efficient in your work. Um, but but take that time that you have off in the evenings, on the weekends, or whatever your structure is and focus on yourself. And if you are working in an environment where the longer you work, the harder you work, the the more overtime you're due, if if that's what's rewarded, then my advice to you is get out of there. Either get out of there and do your own thing or go find leadership that respects that time off and go work in a place like that. Because I've seen, I've lived through both experiences. And when we're talking about the long-term sustainability of a company and a team and having high retention, I really believe that the culture that we're building at Equifruit, one where we respect uh each of our individual team members and their contribution. We want to provide them with the tools that they need to continue to develop professionally. We want to provide opportunity within our team. Um, it also requires for them to have the wisdom to know what their boundaries are. And, you know, it doesn't mean that we don't, we don't work incredibly hard, especially in those early years when where Jenny and I were hardly making any money. We we did, we did a lot of work to get us to this point. Um, and that's afforded the team to be able to come into this structure where we where we say, you know, especially parents, you become quite efficient as a human being when you have three different humans that need to be in all these places and the fridge doesn't restock itself and the floor doesn't uh clean itself and the toilet doesn't scrub itself. Um, you need to be able to have that time to to focus on on your life outside of work.

SPEAKER_01 31:25

I agree. And also I think there's a difference between working hard and working smart, and it's it's fine talking 12 hours a day a day, but you know, what are you actually getting done? And I think actually working reduced hours. Uh so for me, I'm sort of well, yeah, I don't work that many hours in comparison to others. It typically will be 35 to 40 hours a week, and I don't really go over that. Whereas other leaders of search firms, easily 70 to 80 hours a week, like that's the norm. But I think it's it forces you to become efficient and work out only have this many hours. I have to get XYZ done. How can I get that within those hours? So, for you, I mean, in terms of the the business, because there'll be many companies, I'm sure, listening thinking, how the hell do you do that? How do you get that into those hours? Obviously, you've built systems and efficiencies around you to essentially make it work. So I suppose in terms of your team, is there anything in particular that you have built in processes or systems-wise that's really been critical to to making sure that people don't work extensive hours?

SPEAKER_00 32:29

I the first thing that comes to mind is that as we grew from a team of three to now 22, we only hired when we really had a need. We we knew that we were we were doing too much ourselves. And if we had X, Y, Z person to join our team and take on these responsibilities, that it would alleviate that um that burden. And so we were very clear about what we're looking for in these hires, very clear about job descriptions. And when people join the team, it's very clear who's responsible for what and how can we redistribute the weight load. I also have a unique perspective in my department. I run the commercial team at Equifruit, so sales and marketing. As my team has grown, I have the way that I've chosen to approach it is you have a job description, but then you have a human being. And really, what are their greatest strengths? Where do they add the most value? And what are the parts of their job that they're not as passionate about that could potentially be somebody else's passion? So I've even gone through redistributions of tasks within my team to help people excel in their roles because they're loving at least 80% of what they're doing and they're working at an 80% minimum capacity at all times, in order for us to have that space to be wise about when we need to uh hire and add to the team. I don't want my team working at 100% all of the time. I want to allow for space for creativity and rest. You know, I we say to the team, go on a walk in the middle of the day, go take a nap if you're exhausted. Come and when you're here, you're here, you're fully present, you're awake. And, you know, that's that's a privilege. I recognize that that's a privilege. And the people that are part of our team have proven that they can handle that responsibility and they can be entrusted with that responsibility. But really knowing the strengths of your teams and and building up job descriptions and their career path around their strengths, I think is a wise way to approach it. I've I feel that sometimes with leadership, at least this has been my observation outside of Equifruit, there's so much ego around leadership sometimes. And people want the credit for what they what you know, what's being accomplished by a team. And I think that being able to lift your team up and give them credit and celebrate the wins collectively and individually helps foster this environment where we're all here to help each other out, work together as a team, and celebrate victories collectively.

SPEAKER_01 35:13

Nice. And we'll just talk about the the people you have in your team in terms of the hiring and how you bring the right people in. So um in terms of let's talk actually uh in particular on your uh hiring strategies. We've talked a bit about the branding. Does your hiring strategy come into that? Are you branding or doing marketing, social media with hiring talent in mind?

SPEAKER_00 35:40

Well, I would say that our branding has become quite popular and well known within the produce industry, especially in North America. And so it's not uncommon for people to approach us looking for work. They're they're willing to do anything, or maybe they have a specific skill set that they think could add value to the brand. And so we're not necessarily marketing ourselves to hire. A lot of our hires have come from people approaching us or through referral. Uh, although we do use social media videos often in the last couple of years, we decided to really show the humans behind the brand. And it's not uncommon for myself or for Jenny to talk about who's the ideal person for this job and what we're looking for. And I think that in that 30 or 60 second video, you also get a sense of the people that you might be working with and for, which also should help attract the right people. Um, but our process has been fairly organic. And as I said, we are very clear about what it is that we're looking for when we do put a job description out in the market. Um, what's challenging with a socially focused business like Equifruit, where we're talking social impact, working within an ethical framework, it's not uncommon for people to be wanting to join a team that is focused on impact, but uh not necessarily has the right skill set or um maybe not even ready to jump in and do the type of work that needs to be done to help grow the business. Uh, I I've noticed in the last five years, especially that there's been a huge shift of interest towards people wanting to look for purpose in their work. And purpose is wonderful. That's what got me here at Equifruit. But from day one, you know, we hit the ground running and there was a lot to do. So we really want to, we want to have people who are attracted to our mission. We want people to feel excited by uh the way that we're doing business. And we call ourselves banana badasses. So banana badass is somebody who's willing to change uh a model that's been around for over a century and do business differently within an ethical framework and ensure that there's a better distribution of value along the supply chain, even when it's unpopular, even when it's criticized, just knowing that it's badass to change something. Um, so that that requires us to have people who are motivated by what we're we're trying to accomplish, but they're also the best at what they do and they're going to be efficient. They're going to come in and we have created an environment where we say, How are we doing here at Equifruit? Where where can we improve? You know, from day one, we have those types of conversations. We really want people to come in with fresh eyes and say, you know, what was your onboarding process like? Did you feel where did it, where did you get stuck? How can we make that better for the next person? Especially now with all of the, with everything that's so focused on AI and with especially Gen Z that are so used to digital tools, these are not nice to haves. They're really, they're must-haves. And so I think that it requires the millennial and older generations to just get with the times and make things easier, easier to find, easier to understand, and for information to be accessible. I feel like that really helps drive the satisfaction of the team because everything is moving so quickly these days.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

So you mentioned obviously the yeah, so you get obviously a lot of, or even I think you mentioned before, an overwhelming number of CVs for people interested in applying. I understand that getting somebody who aligns with the mission is excited by it by it and having the skill set, yeah, great. You want you want both. Um what are your thoughts on getting somebody who deeply believes in the mission but doesn't have the full skill set, or vice versa, someone who is highly skilled but less emotionally connected. You know, could you lean one way or the other, or does it really need to be an equal balance of the two?

SPEAKER_00 39:46

I think we take it on a case-by-case basis, and um it depends on the department that's hiring as well. You know, of course, the sales and marketing team, we're in front of customers and potential customers. So we need a certain set of human skills that will be able to create connections and bonding and trust to develop these long-term partnerships. Uh, on the operational sourcing side, those skills are not necessarily as required. But I really think that when I when I think about the thread line of the team that we've built, there is this um there is this excitement about what we're trying to accomplish as a brand. And people feel proud to be part of it. So I think that that is really key for us. It would be really hard to imagine working with somebody at Equifruit who just didn't really care about the lives and communities of banana farmers and they were just showing up for a paycheck. Uh, it is important to us that that that resonates with our team members. Um I think that skills can be taught. You know, there's all those old adages, right? About how passion and and excitement and curiosity, you can't really teach those things. So those are the intangibles that I look for. Um, because I am in a client-facing role, I am very critical about the first moment of interaction that I have with somebody. Were they on time? Were they prepared? Were they engaging? Were they emotionally intelligent? Did they know when to, you know, take a step forward or take a step back? I'm really hyper-critical of that first moment of engagement because I know that in my absence, when they're eventually off approaching customers on their own, the way that they interacted with me is the way that they're going to interact with somebody else. So I am looking for those red flags early on, and I'm very critical about, and I've, it doesn't mean that I'm right 100% of the time, but it means that it's it's important to me to pay attention to those intangibles. And I think that emotional intelligence is not talked about enough in the hiring process. It's such a key for uh for teams to get along well and also to help build partnerships long term. You know, we're not we're not selling Ferraris here, right? We're not selling you like one car and then maybe we'll see you in 20 years when your car breaks down. When you're working in the produce industry, as you know this from your experience, you are selling that commodity week in, week out, year in, year out. And you have to be able to build those partnerships on a foundation of trust, which is open, good communication, uh, so that you're you're there for the good times and the bad.

SPEAKER_01 42:27

Talking, going back to you mentioned emotional intelligence, what do you tend to look for? Is there any sort of uh traits that either you do or you look for or you tend to avoid during the hiring process?

SPEAKER_00 42:39

Yeah, so I mean, somebody who's just socially aware, right? Just reading reading cues, listening to uh paying attention to body language, uh, paying attention to the tone of a question. Did that person seem concerned about what you said or uh confused by what you said? Are you able to pick up on that and then address that in your response? Um all of those little subtleties are are uh I think fall under that um umbrella of emotional intelligence for me.

SPEAKER_01 43:13

And just coming back to um the industry, um, do you think the industry underestimates how much consumers actually care about ethics and about fair trade?

SPEAKER_00 43:24

Totally. 100%. I wish that I wish that I could say that 100% of people that choose equafruit bananas on a weekly basis are doing it because they're fighting the good fight with us and they're all called each other banana badasses. I wish that was the case. Most people are just putting them in their basket because that's the banana that they're choosing at the grocery store near them.

SPEAKER_01 43:45

Right. Okay, interesting.

SPEAKER_00 43:46

Um so that doesn't mean that we don't still provide that marketing and merchandising, but we have to be realistic. And I think that the what frustrates me about that reality is that the The banana programs that are out there, the non-equifruit banana programs, where those prices are highly competitive and artificially low, they're making the assumption that the customer would rather a cheap banana than a banana that pays farmers fairly. So there's a lot of assumptions being made in the equation, regardless. And where I feel like we've had the most successful partnerships are when we have a retailer that is excited by what Equifruit is trying to do. You know, they've they've been selling bananas for decades, but they've they haven't changed their strategy. And when internally they're excited by our mission and they want to have a positive impact in the world and they want to see a better distribution along the supply chain, and they go full force and they allow us to come in and put point of sale material up at this at the side uh at the the banana display, and they allow us to go full blown with PR, with social media, uh digital, and they see that that message gets blasted out there. Not only are they feeling great because they've positioned themselves as a sustainability star, but they've kind of got ahead of the conversation rather than the consumer coming to them and saying, hey, I'm a little bit worried that these non-fair trade bananas might be promoting this cycle of generational poverty. Instead, they're getting ahead of the narrative and they're saying, hey, you know what? We've decided as a retailer that it's important to us that we have this um ethical framework within our procurement strategy. And so we're choosing to charge you a little bit more, about 20 cents a pound more Canadian, which works out to about five to$10 more on your grocery bill per year. And we think and we we've we think that you're willing to, we're we think that you're willing to give up one latte per year in order to make that change. It's so affordable.

SPEAKER_01 46:00

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I I definitely would if they were on the supermarkets in the UK. Hopefully one day I'll look out for them. You have to keep keep me posted. But yeah, I mean it it completely makes sense. And I don't even know loads about it, only from our you know, the few conversations we've had. So I think I would from from my perspective, I'd think why why not? Why wouldn't I?

SPEAKER_00 46:21

Yeah. Well, in the UK, one out of three bananas is fair trade certified. You have commitments from Sainsbury's, Waitros, Co-op. You'll find a lot of fair trade certified product, but what you won't see in the UK is branded produce. So you will have a little bit of branded, but not so much within the fair trade space. So certainly there's certainly an opportunity for aquifruit to come to market. And if somebody's listening and they want to talk to us about building a program, I'd be happy to get that conversation going. Our our um director of sourcing is based in Panama, but he comes to us with, he's been with us now for four years, and he has 30 years of experience in fair trade bananas. And all of his experience prior to joining our fruit was helping to build um supply chains into the European market. So we're well positioned to get something going in Europe, and that's gonna be a focus for us in the coming years.

SPEAKER_01 47:14

So it's more so getting somebody who has the European knowledge, maybe, which is obviously different. The retailers in in Europe and the UK, from what I know, are very it's it's just different, isn't it? It's a different market from Canada and and the US in particular.

SPEAKER_00 47:27

Yeah, you're seeing more branding and produce in North America. It's still, it's still really the the least branded out of the whole grocery store, but you are starting to see more and more brands. And so there's an opportunity to flesh that out for us in the North American market, but start conversations abroad.

SPEAKER_01 47:45

Okay. And what do you want the banana industry ideally? If you could choose exactly what it's going to look like in 10 years, what does that look like?

SPEAKER_00 47:55

You know, it in my mind, it really starts with the farm. If you've ever been down to Origin to see banana production on a large scale, it is tough work. You know, forget we're talking about working 67 hours, 70 hours a week on our on our leather chairs with our with our coffee machines within walking distance. Working those 60 to 70 hours on a farm is tough, tough work. We're talking 40 degrees Celsius, mosquitoes, humidity, heat, and the the weight of that fruit, I'll never forget the feeling of putting a bunch of bananas on my shoulder. It felt like my neck was gonna slap, snap. And I'm going to the packing house, and all the water and the again, the mosquitoes are non-stop, all the bugs. And when you look at this hard, hard labor and the the low wages, low returns to farmers in general in non-fair trade farms, it's really heartbreaking. And what's even more heartbreaking is when you go into the communities of where these farmers live and you see the level of poverty in their their homes. I mean, we're talking about, you know, Jenny actually is preparing to give a TED talk in uh late in a couple of weeks from now. And she she's gonna speak specifically about this one experience she saw with literally plastic bags for doors and holes in tin roofs and mud floors and no access to clean drinking water. These people are not, they are not unhoused. They they have jobs, they have full-time jobs, and yet they come home to they come home to to really nothing, to bare bones infrastructure. So my hope for the banana industry is for us to pull in conversation into that conversation around equity and and um sustainability, to really think about beyond just the farms within our continental uh countries, to be thinking about the faces and communities of those that provide some of our most popular items, you know, pineapples, bananas, those tropical items, we don't think really about where that fruit comes from. We don't question why the price seems to be um stable no matter what's going on economically. And and if we, if I was able to just take busloads of people to come down and see that poverty full first hand and then say, hey, would you be willing to pay about$5 more per year to solve this issue? It's a really, it's really a no-brainer. So I I would like, you know, it's been it's been years since I've been able to go back down to origin. But I remember it like it was yesterday, my last visit. And when I'm there, all I think about is getting back and just just pushing through the nose to find those yeses and to help rebuild these communities and to to to let people live and work with dignity. You know, I can't imagine. We're both, we're both, I'm assuming that you work full-time. I work full-time. Imagine I was in a tin hut right now with a wood floor. It's just not it's not fair that I get to have the privilege of this this comfortable chair and this air-conditioned home and a fridge full of food. Um, it's just not fair. So if these people didn't choose to be born into these countries that were banana republics, that were born, that were restructured to benefit large corporations. And so I would like to know that at when I reach my retirement, that not just the work that I've done, but the the work that our team has done and that the support of our customers has really helped change this critical issue in the produce industry.

SPEAKER_01 51:45

Yeah, and I think you know, it is it's super insightful. I mean, I didn't know any of that in all honesty at all. That's complete, uh, yeah, completely new to me. Yeah. Um I suppose if you look back as well, you know, you were when you were thinking that I want to get in some into uh a career that's meaningful, and now you're doing this, like you couldn't have asked for anything better, you know, in terms of what you're actually the mission you're on and what you're standing for. So I think it is yeah, really amazing. And you've you've done absolutely incredible to get to to where you are. And I'm sure that that message, you will keep delivering that and that time will come, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00 52:19

Yeah, yeah, I feel I feel especially lucky. And you know, I'm it's I'm as you know it's very clear that I'm very, very passionate about our mission. Uh, but one of the other things that I feel incredibly lucky about, and hopefully this will resonate with your listeners because not everybody's gonna turn into a banana badass tomorrow and start selling fair trade bananas. But one of the things that I'm really, really proud about is the decision that I made to move away from more toxic work environments and to work with a team and help build a team where we foster an environment of mutual respect for each other, open communication, um, having that psychological safety within your workplace is so important. We spend so many hours at work. You deserve to work with people that that take care of you and you take care of them, and that it's a joy to be around each other. So I'm very, very lucky about that too.

SPEAKER_01 53:15

Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Kim. This has been a really incredible conversation, very honest, very thoughtful. And yeah, it's really interesting to hear the story behind Equifruit. So um I suppose if anybody, if any of our listeners do want to reach out, um, where's the best for them to get hold of you?

SPEAKER_00 53:33

Yeah, well, we have a really cool website, equifruit.com. It feels like a video game because we assumed you were going to be bored. So your your sh your mouse is gonna turn into a shark. You can eat the Equifruit banana while you're learning about how farmers need to be paid fairly. And we're on social media at Equifruit, EQI Fruit. So yeah, shout out. And I'm on LinkedIn. So if you look up Kim Shacal, I'd be happy to connect and keep the conversation going.

SPEAKER_01 54:00

Perfect. All right. Well, that's everything. So thank you so much, Kim.

SPEAKER_00 54:03

My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 54:08

Thanks for listening to Behind the Fruit, a podcast by LCR International. We are global experts in fresh produce executive search. Hit subscribe if you enjoyed this episode. And for more industry insights, connect with us on LinkedIn.