Courage Over Comfort | Holding Adults Accountable - Ep 07

Hosts: Courtney Acosta & Mario Acosta 

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Episode Overview 

Hard conversations don’t ruin culture—avoidance does. In this episode, Courtney and Mario tackle one of the most difficult parts of school leadership: holding adults accountable while still protecting psychological safety. They unpack why leaders confuse “nice” with “kind,” why comfort is not the same as safety, and what happens to standards and trust when accountability is delayed. You’ll hear why high performers disengage first, how inaction creates a slow exit of your strongest people, and why students ultimately pay the price. The episode closes with a practical, repeatable framework—A.A.C.T. (Ask, Anchor, Cite, Tie)—to help leaders lead tough conversations with clarity, dignity, and follow-through.

Big Ideas from the Conversation 

Avoidance erodes culture quietly. 

When leaders don’t address adult performance, the strongest people disengage and standards drop over time. 

Being “nice” can be self-preservation; being “kind” requires clarity. 

Clear expectations reduce defensiveness. Consistency makes accountability predictable instead of personal. 

High performers watch what you tolerate. When low performance has no consequences, trust disappears and your best people eventually leave. Students feel the ripple effect. Inner-circle accountability is hardest. Addressing an assistant principal, principal, or close colleague requires courage, evidence, and clean process. 

Accountability is protection, not punishment. It protects culture, standards, and student success.

Leadership Actions Recommended in This Episode 

1. Use the A.A.C.T. conversation flow. Ask for clarity first (lower defensiveness and gain context), then Anchor the conversation to a written standard, Cite specific evidence (dates, times, examples, and support provided), and Tie the behavior to its impact on students, team workload, culture, or trust.

2. Separate safety from comfort. Create psychological safety through respect, dignity, and fair process—not by avoiding the truth. Set the norm that feedback is part of growth for everyone (teachers, leaders, and the inner circle).

3. Protect your high performers on purpose. If you’re not addressing recurring issues, your best people will notice first. Name the standard, follow through consistently, and stop asking high performers to “cover” for chronic underperformance.

4. Document like a professional, not a prosecutor. Accountability isn’t blocked by strong contracts—poor documentation is. Track evidence through agreed systems so expectations apply to everyone and due process is clear.

5. Revisit and reinforce. End every conversation with next steps and a scheduled follow-up. If performance improves, celebrate it. If it doesn’t, escalate supports and clarify consequences—with dignity.

6. Grow your own leadership bench. Intentionally develop future leaders inside your organization. Hire for values, coach for growth, and prepare people to eventually take your job.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

If I say something, they're gonna be upset. If I say something, it could ruin the relationship. Or if I say something, this could get messy. So I'll just wait. And that is how culture erodes. Not loudly, but quietly. And when leaders refuse to hold adults accountable, the strongest people slowly disengage. I'm Courtney.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

And I'm Mario.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

And this is the Ed Leadership Pair podcast.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

In today's episode, we're going to be talking about the hardest leadership work there is, and that is adult accountability.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

And why is this so hard? Why is this so complicated for people to get? Why is this a difficult thing?

SPEAKER_00 0:50

Yeah, right. It's just I think there's just so many aspects of being a leader when it comes to holding the adults in your in your school accountable. There's just so many wrinkles.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

So I think starting out, one of the reasons that I think it is very difficult to do this is because of the need for psychological safety. And you feel like if I'm being nice, then I am keeping my people safe and happy. And so like they'll they'll work harder, they'll be better, they'll which we know is not true.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

I think you're right. There's that balance between trying to create create a safe environment and a supportive environment. But then how do you draw the line to say, yeah, but you're not getting your job done in a way that's effective for our school or for our kids?

SPEAKER_01 1:37

Yeah, I mean, avoiding conflict is not, it might be nice. It isn't actually not the kind thing to do in general. And those are two very different things, like being nice versus being being kind, and you can have one without the other, and just straight up avoiding conflict and avoiding conversations about accountability and feedback, those are not kind. They don't help and support your staff and your other leaders on your campus. And it's really actually selfish, like it's very self-serving to withhold that from people. Like the people that you support deserve that from you.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

Yeah. Gosh, that word selfish, that is it seems like such a direct word. Yeah, right. It's a little harsh. No, but I think you're absolutely right. And um, I'm gonna bring up a great book right now. It's called The Fearless Organization. The author is Amy Edmondson, and she talks about in her book that psychological safety and comfort are not the same thing. For the leader, being liked is sort of a selfish thing because it makes me uncomfortable or it'll upset that person. And maybe when they're upset, they might some drama. Yeah, yeah, right, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

Um, yeah, and that's another thing is just straight up trying to avoid some drama between other people in your organization. You're trying to avoid that thing happening, which is a whole other conversation. But yeah, it's this you're not being compassionate by not being honest, you're actually just going into a mode of self-preservation and and seeking your own comfort. And as a leader, that's not where we should sit. I mean, and there's the whole Brene Brown clear is kind and avoidance is selfish. Like the if you want to get into dare to lead, that's a really classic, classic Brene Brown book talking about create the clarity and then deliver that to the people that you're supporting. And that is the kind thing to do.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

And you know, I say this a lot to people that I coach and support, and and I had to learn this coming up. You can be clear and you can be direct and you can hold people accountable without being a uh butthead. Can I say that on this podcast? Oh, yeah. It's our podcast.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

You can say whatever you want.

SPEAKER_00 3:57

Right?

SPEAKER_01 3:57

So you are an independent contractor, sir.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

I like that.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

You can make your own decisions.

SPEAKER_00 4:01

I'm gonna be careful because I'm gonna say more things than uh no, but right, you can hold people to account without being mean. And I think that was something I know for sure in my career as I was growing up and getting better at this, was realizing, okay, it doesn't make me a jerk to be clear and with my people and hold them accountable to the things that the organization expected.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

And I think when you are consistent with your clarity, like you set the bar, here's what I expect, here's how we're going to behave, here, whatever it is. But whenever you are consistent about it and you address all of the issues that happen below whatever that bar is, then people come to expect it and it's not like a shock anymore. Like may if you come in new to a school or a district and all of a sudden you are having these hard conversations in the beginning, yeah, that's where did this lady come from? Yeah, exactly. But the more you do it, the more people understand and they will see that, oh, okay, uh maybe I didn't realize that I was doing this thing that was inappropriate or whatever. But like it doesn't feel as though they are getting picked on anymore, and it doesn't because that's just the expectation.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

Everybody's held to the same expectation, right? Absolutely, right? But I think that's one of the fears for a new leader is like I'm new here. Um, I shouldn't, I shouldn't go around, you know, shaking too many things. And while that's true, but you can hold everybody to account for the culture that already exists when you get there, right? So I think building those patterns of expectation and consistency, as you said.

SPEAKER_01 5:37

Yeah, but you can't sit in that too long. Like you only get so much time as I'm a new leader, I'm gonna sit and watch and and just live in this culture and be expected to not rattle some cages.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

You're right. Because then again, it it's self-preservation, right? And a big theme of today's show or today is that when leaders don't address adults in their organization, it really is more about a selfish preservation than it is the good of the organization. So that's a fair warning, right? Is how long can you sit and be like, well, I'll deal with that later? Because then that becomes the expectation you said, right? What is the expectation people start to see? Oh, this leader's just gonna kick that problem down the road and not address it.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

Yeah. Yeah. And I I think too, it's important for the leader to consider if they're in this situation where they are avoiding what what is where's your fear coming from? Yeah. Is your fear that you're going to damage a really healthy culture, a really good culture? Is it is it a fear that you're gonna damage relationships or you haven't built enough relationships or emotional capital within the system that you don't feel like you can honor those boundaries and those expectations? That's true. Are you worried about your likability? Because there are a lot of other consequences that come when you don't address these issues.

SPEAKER_00 6:58

That's fair. And let's talk about some of the consequences. What happens if you if you don't do it?

SPEAKER_01 7:04

Yeah, one of uh the really impactful books is Todd Whitaker's Shifting the Monkey. I oh my God, so good. Shifting the monkey is a fabulous book if you are looking for something to motivate you to address issues within your organization. And the the biggest thing that I got out of this book is when you don't address it, you are sending a very clear message to your highest performers. And you are telling your highest performers, I am not willing to get out of my comfort zone and address these issues. And I will continue to let lower performers be lower performing and not appreciate how hard you are working and that you are going either at the bar or even above the bar. But it sends a huge message to your highest performers when you are not addressing some of these issues.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

Yeah. Gosh, so well said. And Todd Whitaker is one of the best authors and speakers, I think, of our era. And so um, maybe one of these days we can get him to come on this show and talk about this book of his. Uh, but what they're trying to communicate to us as leaders is that when the leader doesn't uphold the standard of of expectation, right? Of employee expectation, a couple of things happen. Number one, the standard itself starts to erode. So, leaders, you you um your organization is simply a manifestation of what you allow to become the norm inside of your school, right? So if I allow people to non-collaborate because I won't hold them accountable for collaboration, guess what? We no longer collaborate, right? If if I allow people to show up late to work, if that matters to you, then guess what? Our people show up late to work, right? So the whatever you allow is what occurs. Not only do the standards come down if you don't address behavior, but also trust completely disappears. So Courtney said exactly right. Your high performers look around and say, Well, why would I work extra hard to do these things when nobody else has to do it? Eventually, at some point, you know, my my inner so great teachers are great because they care about their profession. They have some intrinsic motivation, but intrinsic motivation eventually erodes when you start to look around and say, Well, heck, nobody else is doing any of this. So why should I be working so hard, right? Their paycheck shows up on the 25th and it's as big as my paycheck. So what is the motivation to keep being a high performer if if low performance is acceptable in your organization?

SPEAKER_01 9:38

But even more than that, if there's somebody who really values that, they're gonna leave. And then if it's some if you are in a school where showing up late is not an issue, and so somebody else has to cover down for your class, and you're a teacher that is always there on time, and you're called in to be the sub for the teacher that never shows up.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 9:59

Why wouldn't you leave? The consequence of avoiding accountability is not like it's not this neutral zone that you can live in. Right. It's actually the slow exit of your strongest people over time. Oh man, like the leaves.

SPEAKER_00 10:13

Why would they leave? They'll go seek other organizations where their behaviors are a better match, right? So yeah, I think you're right. Like the most frustrated people in your building aren't the ones you're trying to hold accountable. It's the people that are watching you not hold them accountable. Yeah. And they're going, like, yeah, no, why would I stay here? Right. So yeah, the the risk of all of this is that you lose your best people.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

And and maybe even a bigger consequence than that, than losing all your best people, is that when adults are not held accountable, the kids suffer. Like ultimately, you're gonna lose your best teachers, you're not gonna have teachers there on time, so they're gonna end up with a sub. You're not gonna have people collaborating, so their lessons aren't gonna be as robust as they could be had we had all the brains in the room to work and think together. Yep. The kids lose. And that I mean, that's our that's our job. Yeah, it's the kids.

SPEAKER_00 11:04

I I couldn't agree more. And I mean, there's just a general maximum of leadership. What you permit, you promote, right? And so I think that's where we are.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

Are you coming out with little quotables?

SPEAKER_00 11:15

What you permit is what you treasure what you measure.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

Yeah. You measure what you now you're making stuff up. So let's talk about one of the hardest things to do. It's not just harder than that.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

There's something harder than this.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

I believe it is more difficult.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

Here it comes. What is harder than holding the people you supervise accountable?

SPEAKER_01 11:36

I mean, well, let's let's go beyond teachers.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:40

And let's say you are a principal or you are a superintendent and you are holding your inner circle accountable. And one one of, well, I guess two of the most difficult things I've ever had to do is when one of my assistant principals on my team was not the right fit for a campus and had to be supported out. That's difficult because they know what's happening.

SPEAKER_00 12:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

They know all the steps, they know everything that you're going through, and X, Y, Z, A, B, C, they know, they know the playbook. And so going through that process with an assistant principal was really difficult. You know what's more difficult than that?

SPEAKER_00 12:23

Having a bad assistant principal.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

Well, yeah. But being in central office and having to do that same thing with a principal. Principal. Yeah. So difficult. I bet. And it it takes so many opportunities for coaching and for them to deny the coaching and to be clear about your expectations and for them to flat out say, no, I'm not, I'm not doing that, or I I can't make that happen for whatever reason. But those roles are so difficult to hold accountable when you get down the road of like, okay, this isn't a best fit, and having to actually document them out of the position, that is rough. I'm sure. The the accountability conversations for me, those are fine because it's clarity about the standards, this is what we expect. Though that's okay. But it's the process that you have to go down after that when they decide I'm not going to be a part of that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

Well, and I think you know, it's difficult because if you're a principal and you've got to discipline or address or hold accountable an assistant principal, or like you said, a superintendent has to do that with one of the chiefs on his staff, or or a central office member having to do that with a principal. One of the I think what becomes really difficult in these situations when you like people, when it's people in your inner circle and you like it's really tough. Listen, you're around them a lot, they're in your foxhole, right? So these are people that are really close to you. Oftentimes, these people have been super loyal to you, right? I I know I've worked with assistant principals who maybe weren't the highest performers, but these people loved me, they loved our team, they loved our school. So having to hold that type of person accountable can be really tough because they're loyal to you. Or maybe they have a long history in that in that job or in that school, and they're well liked by a lot of other people too, right? Um, not only like you said, they know all the tricks, they know when you start to ask the right questions or do the right things. They're already going, wait a minute, I've seen you do this to teachers before. I know what you're doing. So yeah, they know the inner working of it, so that's difficult. But also, these are people that we like that that come over to our house that have Christmas parties here with us. That so, yeah, that I could see that being really easy. And remember, we said at the beginning, when leaders don't hold others accountable, it's really about their own weakness or their own selfishness. So I think this is one of those spots where it can be really easy for a leader to have the personal relationship kind of take take precedence over um the needs of the organization or the holding to those standards that you're talking about. And let me just offer this book. It's called Leadership and Self-Deception. It's by the Arbinger Institute. The premise of the book is that we often justify in action towards people that we like.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

So the book talks about our natural human and leadership instinct is gosh, if I like you, it's hard for me to hold you really, really to the ultimate account. And so in this book, it gives some really good points and tips on on how to hold people inside of your inner circle accountable. So I know you have had to do this before. Can you start to give us, give us some action steps, give us some quick pointers, or those people that are listening that are going, gosh, I've got somebody in my inner team that needs to be addressed. What are some things you would tell them that they could do in the immediate to start holding their inner team accountable?

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Yeah, so I think setting up conversations with the team about why this is important and to say, we're all gonna have strengths, we're all gonna have weaknesses, we're all gonna have blind spots. And so sometimes we need to be called out on what those are. And if you can build, I mean, we've said it before, if you can build a culture within your team where they could actually call each other out on it and learn from each other, that's amazing and that would be phenomenal. But in the case that that can't happen and the leader has to address them, I think you definitely want to do, depending on depending on the person and the culture of your team, if it's needed, obviously you're gonna have those conversations a little bit more privately than in the middle of a team meeting.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

Are you sure you don't just call them out in front of the whole thing?

SPEAKER_01 16:23

Well, I don't know. I'm I'm on a team now that we all would call each other out right there in front of our faces. Hey, suck them, you suck.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

Get it together.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

Maybe not that. Maybe not that.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

And listeners, listen, Courtney has a really great saying. She says, get your poop in a group.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

Which I did steal from my IT at my previous school, Krista Tyler. She had some great quotes.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

Poop in a group and get you poop in a group. You know what together.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

Get you poop in a group. No, but my boss definitely would say that to us in our. We have a small little team right now, but yeah. And and but the culture is that way, and it would be okay. Anyway, so it just it really depends on the culture of your team. But I think setting the stage for, hey guys, these are conversations we're gonna have, and the intent is to make us all better, to make us all stronger. I like it. And you set it up from the beginning that it is an expectation for yourself to have these conversations because it's your responsibility as a leader to grow them.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

For sure. To your point, in a really healthy team, they should there should be this willingness to engage in unfiltered conflict, right? So, to where the point is like, it's okay to call me out and I can call you out in the sense of we're gonna hold ourselves to shared standards. Not call again, we keep saying this, we can be clear without being mean. We can be direct. Yeah. So when we say call someone out, we don't mean uh cursing someone out. We just mean like, hey, didn't we say we were gonna behave this way in our norms, or didn't we say we were gonna make sure we show up every two weeks having done our walkthroughs? This is the third time you haven't shown up with your walkthroughs done. You're hurting the team, right? And uh at one of my schools years back, we used the metaphor of the um the uh a rowing team, right? A rowing team matters because when you think about people rowing in a boat um altogether, if even one person lets their oar drop and drift into the water, then even though everybody else is rowing really hard, that dead ore is gonna drag that boat, right? In other words, you can't be efficient if one person on the team has let go of their oar. So we used to talk about that a lot on our teams in our schools was row your oar. If you get tired, you can slow down. We'll row harder while you while you catch your breath. But the one thing you cannot do is let go of your oar. And I think, like you said, in these in these teams with your inner circle, that has to be set up front. Guys, all of us have to row our oar, and we have to be able to call each other out if we are not rowing an oar, right? And and in a professional, positive, and kind way, but to say you're hurting the team by not doing this, or you know, you're not doing your walkthroughs, you're not keeping up with your attendance, you're not doing your discipline, right? Whatever, whatever the standard is that has dropped, um, the leader has to call it. But like you said, in a really healthy team, even the peers would be able to call on each other and say, hey, that's not looking good. But listen, I had this experience. The peers can call each other in a healthy way, only to a point. That's true. If the peers have said it and said it and said it, and the leader doesn't intervene, we've already talked about this. What is gonna happen to those great leaders on your team? They're gonna bounce, they're gonna leave because they're gonna say, All right, I have confronted my colleague in as positive a way as possible multiple times, and my boss won't step in and won't do anything about it. So now I'm gonna go work somewhere else where where I'm actually supported by my boss, or my boss actually means what he or she says. And I think you reach a point, right? As a leader, you reach a point where if you don't do what you say, people stop trusting that you're ever going to do anything at all. And we've talked about that in previous episodes.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

Didn't one of your schools where you when you left and they gave you a big ore that they had?

SPEAKER_00 19:59

It was really cute.

SPEAKER_01 20:00

That was a really cute idea. Whoever did that. I don't remember. Anyway.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

Yeah, so throughout this episode, we've been trying to give good resources to the listeners. So, listeners, right here, when you're talking about your inner team and creating that team that can that can challenge each other but hold each other accountable and for the leader, there's a great book by Kim Scott. It's called Radical Candor. And to summarize this book, Radical Candor, I would say she she writes this you'll you want to care personally about those people that you're close with in your inner circle, but you want to challenge them directly. Meaning when when anybody in your inner circle's um performance has dipped below the standard of the team or the standard of the organization, then you've got to challenge them directly on it. Hey, this behavior right here has not met our expectations, not the team's, not mine. I need you to step up, right? Now I can support you, I can provide you guidance, I can give you tools and resources. But here's one of the things, Courtney, and I think, you know, just to get your take on this, but so often we as leaders are afraid to just hit it directly, just challenge it straight on. Here's why it's not working, here's what I gotta see better, and here's the way I can support you. Um, again, we go back to Brene Brown, and I know we've said we've quoted her so many times, but that clarity is so kind. I know I have been addressed more than more times in my career than I'd ever want to admit. I uh my boss has had to say sometimes to me, this was not okay, this was not good, do this better. And I loved that. I was always willing to take that coaching, even today. If somebody that watches me give a big keynote, I love the feedback to say, we loved this part, didn't like that part. I love that clarity because that's the only way that I can improve. So I think most people want clear feedback.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

I think, as you're saying that, I think it takes a certain level of confidence to be able to take that feedback productively and to internalize it and take the coaching. Like because that's hard to do when you're young in your career as a leader. It can be, I guess some people. May come into this really amazingly, and it's easy for them. But it was it was very hard for me because I always felt like it was you're doing it wrong, do it this way, you know, whatever. But as I have matured in my career, you are a very, very young lady. Um, but as I've as I have had more years under my belt in this, I definitely think there is a level of confidence that it takes to be able to just be coached some by somebody and to say, look, you're really maybe my leader is amazing at all of these other things. It doesn't mean they're amazing at everything, but like I need to accept they know things that I possibly don't know. That's right. And what are those things that I can take from them that they can teach me that make me better instead of trying to fight back and say why I was right and why what they're telling me is wrong or justify it or whatever. Like, just take the feedback, be coached, be coachable as a leader when it's coming the other way. And it's good as a leader. You always want to have people that will disagree with you. But when somebody is coaching you and giving you feedback, it it is so important to make sure you take it productively.

SPEAKER_00 23:08

Leaders have to understand that allowing for healthy dialogue and healthy candor and healthy pushback, that's what makes a great team. So, what we are not advocating for is the leader as uh, you know, a top-down thou shalt do everything I say. That is not what we're saying. We're just saying that the leader has to be strong enough to hold people accountable to the standards of the organization. So, what we thought we'd do to close our episode is we're gonna give you guys a little bit of a practical framework because we've talked about holding people accountable, but what does that actually look like? What are the steps you would take as a leader to have these difficult conversations? So, Courtney and I have come across this framework, uh, double A C T or the Act cycle, the double A C T cycle. And if any of you that are Aeron fans, it's kind of uh in the in light of the act cycle. Here's what we know if accountability starts with a declaration of a deficit, then it can feel like an attack, right? But if accountability starts with a question, it feels more like leadership, it feels more like probing conversation. So here's what we would say when you get in these conversations, ask before you assert. So the first A of the double AC act is ask for clarity, right? When you ask for clarity, sometimes you realize the employee didn't even know they had a gap there. Um, it can lower their defensiveness, it can provide you with context you didn't know was going on with them, right? Something simple, like this is the fourth time you've been late this week. What are you okay? Instead of you've been late, deal with it. Is everything okay? I've noticed you've been late, right? You might find out that something's going on in that person's life that you weren't aware of, that that you're glad you're aware of now. So the first A of the A C T is ask for clarity. There's a lot of respect and dignity, and it it creates that climate. We want to create a safe climate where people feel valued. Sometimes just that. Is everything okay? I have noticed this. Is something wrong? Can you explain to me why those kind of leading questions become really, really important?

SPEAKER_01 25:12

And that takes the defensive down immediately when you're having the conversation because it shows that you are caring about the person. And it's help me understand what's what's happening here, what's going on, what's behind this.

SPEAKER_00 25:27

So the second A of the double A C T is anchored to the standard. So this is critical after you've asked the questions that you need to point out specific instances where the behavior of the adult has not met the standard of the organization to clarify the expectation. So reference the rubric or reference the the um the job description or whatever it is in the standard, the written standard. Uh sometimes this is where engaging when you have to engage with a union, right? A teacher union or whatever, this is a really critical step, which is I'm not picking on the person. We are talking about this standard of expected behavior from within the organization, right? Whether that be an instructional standard, a professionalism standard, or whatever. So that that second A after we've asked the questions, now we're going to anchor the conversation in a very specific part of the working standard. And then that brings us to the C. And I think you were Courtney was better at this than any administrator I ever worked along, but C stands for cite the evidence. And Courtney being the A-type leader that she was, she always had really deep evidence. And so I don't know if you want to expand on citing evidence in this part of the conversation.

SPEAKER_01 26:36

Well, you can't cite the evidence without, like you said, having the really clear standards. And so making sure that you have set up systems for collection of this evidence. Like, how are you measuring these things? How are you actually saying this is how we're tracking this behavior or whatever it is? Um, and so you just have to have systems set up to where it doesn't look like you're picking on somebody because this is the expectation for everybody, and this is how we track it for everybody. And, you know, we have now I'm really excited because some of the work that we're doing in my company right now is about teacher effectiveness. And we have a bunch of different standards that we've gotten super clear about, and we are taking measurements on every single one and putting them all together into one measure of teacher effectiveness. But it you can look at every individual one and see where the teachers fall within the boundaries of acceptable or not acceptable. And it's so easy to say, look, this is this is where you're falling below what we are expecting. And so you can give really clear evidence that is a specific observation, a date and a time, um reference to the rubric or reference to whatever scale that you've been measuring on, or whatever. It it lends itself to a really clear conversation about what this evidence was.

SPEAKER_00 28:00

Yep. And so I what you said there to me that's so powerful is these expectations are for all. So yeah, you're having a tough conversation with this specific person, but it's not about me and you. It's about everyone in this organization is held to this standard, and this evidence we've collected, multiple pieces of evidence are showing you're not meeting that standard, right? Um, and I would also say in the site evidence, an important step here is where you've given support to this person. Here are the not only here's where you're not doing well, but we've tried to help you here, and we give you this resource and we give you this training. We're not saying, ah, we got you not doing well. We're saying, gosh, you're not doing well. And despite our efforts to help you, you continue to struggle doing that.

SPEAKER_01 28:43

And if you can't speak to that, that's a problem.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

It will be a problem, right?

SPEAKER_01 28:45

If you can't say, here's all the ways in which we've tried to reinforce the correct behavior, that's right, then that's on you as the leader and your leadership team.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

And this is where some some like a union, this is where like a union will really tear that up, right? If you've not shown that you've tried to make that support um very, very embedded in this process, then that's that's where that can go really, really wrong. Um, and something about unions I just wanted to say is that I know a lot of times I talk to leaders and they're like, gosh, I can't do that because we have a really strong contract with the union. But here's the thing: unions don't make accountability impossible. Poor documentation makes accountability impossible. The unions aren't there to avoid people from being addressed, they're there to make sure that due process has been followed. And so as long as you can document that you have followed a process of support and and and that you're holding that one employee to the same account as all employees, that's what the unions are there to do is to make sure somebody's not getting picked on. So as long as your your documentation can show that, right, I think you're in good shape. All right, then the final, the T is to tie it to the impact behavior is causing on the organization. Tie it to the impact on students, tie it to the impact that it's having on the team, on the culture, on the school, or on the community.

SPEAKER_01 30:04

Yeah, and then I think after you go through your act process, we gotta we gotta fix that. I don't know. I don't know. But after you go through that process, you have to also define the next steps. Yes, hopefully with this person that you're working with. Like together, you come up with what are the appropriate next steps. How are we going to follow up and what are the expectations to be in place before that follow-up? Um, and then always you gotta schedule a revisit. Like you got to come back to it. You gotta keep coming back to it. And if you revisit and everything is better, celebrate that. That's amazing. Give them a moment of like, God, this is incredible. Look at what you're doing. Kudos to you. Way to go.

SPEAKER_00 30:48

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

Good job, star sticker.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

Yeah, because a person who really cares about their work when getting critical feedback, then is going to be seeking that um that that validation that, okay, you told me this wasn't very good. I did it. Yeah, I if I get celebrated, it's okay. This is this organization is a growth-oriented organization.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

Teachers deserve a growth mindset too. It's not just students. It is not just students. We should be coaching and developing our teachers just as they are, and our assistant principals and our principals and everybody in the everybody within an educational organization should have a growth mindset just as we would want our students to have a growth mindset. If you fix it, amazing. That's great. Let's celebrate it. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

And maybe you didn't fix it the first time, just like a kid. I failed once, I failed twice, but we're gonna keep addressing it until we get you to the level of acceptance. Or when it comes to adults, you've decided maybe you need to find a better, a better fit for yourself. Better fit.

SPEAKER_01 31:49

I will support you right out the door.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

That's right. We'll support you up or support you out. Let's close out this episode this way Accountability isn't about punishment, it's about protection, protection of the culture, protection of the standards of your organization, and ultimately protection of student success. If there's someone in your building right now that you know you need to have a conversation with and you've been putting it off, remember you don't have a culture problem, you have a little bit of a courage problem, right?

SPEAKER_01 32:21

Oh, call it out. Just calling it out right there.

SPEAKER_00 32:24

Well, let's think about it. The most courageous leaders aren't the ones who avoid the hard conversations, they're the ones who protect the standards of their organization, even when it's uncomfortable. Well, thank you for another great episode together. And I'd like the listeners to know that on recording day, not on uh air date, but on recording day, this is uh Courtney's birthday, and so I'm wishing her a very happy birthday. Um, she agreed very kindly to record this episode on her birthday, and it was very dicey. She almost said, Nope, my birthday wish is to not record an episode.

SPEAKER_01 32:57

I did get a FaceTime from one of our children while I was while we were recording.

SPEAKER_00 33:02

So happy birthday to you, and thank you for being willing to spend the time with me on our weekly date here at the Ed Leadership Pair. Please don't forget to follow us on our social media platforms. And if you are willing to subscribe to our newsletter where we've been providing a lot of these books and resources and frameworks and all that, we provided to our subscribers, so please consider subscribing.

SPEAKER_01 33:27

You know what I promise to do? I promise to hold you accountable to the standards of our marriage with kindness.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

I would expect nothing less from you because I regularly drop below the standards. Well, we're signing off. I'm audio.

SPEAKER_01 33:42

I'm Courtney. See ya.