Stop Driving Great Leaders Out | Why Great Leaders Leave – Ep 010

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Episode Overview 

Great leaders do not usually leave because the work is hard. They leave because of the climate created by the leaders above them. In this episode, Courtney and Mario unpack the hidden organizational patterns that drive strong leaders away: ignored feedback, broken feedback loops, imposed decisions without explanation, micromanagement, initiative chaos, lack of strategic direction, and disrespectful treatment. The conversation is aimed at both leaders and leaders of leaders, making the case that retention is not mainly about pay or title. It is about whether people feel heard, trusted, respected, supported, and able to do meaningful work. Through personal stories and practical examples, they challenge principals, district leaders, and executive leaders to examine the culture they are creating for the people they lead.

Big Ideas from the Conversation 

Feedback loops matter. Asking for input without closing the loop makes leaders feel used, devalued, and ignored. Voice creates commitment. When leaders do not have a seat at the table, they disengage quickly. Micromanagement drives out strong people. High-will, high-skill leaders do not want to be controlled; they want to be trusted and coached appropriately. Initiative chaos destroys focus. Constantly changing priorities and throwing out work that is just beginning to take root makes it impossible for leaders to build anything sustainable. Strategic consistency calms organizations. Leaders need a clear roadmap, a few key conditions, and the discipline to stay focused over time. Trust and respect are foundational. Leaders can tolerate hard feedback, but they will disengage when the feedback becomes disrespectful or when they sense bad intent. Kindness and humility matter. Leaders do not have to be charismatic, but they do have to be good humans who create climates where people feel valued, respected, supported, and heard.

Leadership Actions Recommended in This Episode 

1. Create real feedback loops Ask your leaders for input, but do not stop there. Close the loop by explaining what decision was made, whether the feedback shaped it, and why the final direction was taken.

2. Match your coaching style to the person Do not lead everyone the same way. Be an author for low-skill, coachable leaders who need more structure, an editor for developing leaders who need feedback and guardrails, and an influencer for high-will, high-skill leaders who need trust and thoughtful coaching.

3. Reduce initiative chaos Stop changing direction every year or piling on new priorities without removing old ones. Build a roadmap, focus on a few important conditions, and stay disciplined long enough for people to get good at the work.

4. Protect autonomy, competence, and relatedness Give leaders the room to lead, support them where they need growth, and make sure the work you ask them to do actually connects to the communities they serve.

5. Address disrespect immediately People can handle hard feedback, but they will not stay in environments where they are belittled, publicly diminished, or treated with disrespect. If one of your leaders is treating people that way, it must be addressed.

6. Audit your own leadership climate Ask yourself four questions: Do my leaders trust me? Do they feel respected? Do they feel supported? Do they believe their voice matters here? The answers will tell you whether your best people are likely to stay.

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📸 Instagram: @edleadership_pair

▶️ YouTube: The EdLeadership Pair

🎥 TikTok: @theedleadershippair

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Join our growing community of school leaders navigating today’s challenges together.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Here's a hard truth about leadership that many organizations don't want to admit. Great leaders don't leave because the job is hard. We expect the job to be hard. They leave because the leaders above them. And if organizations don't pay attention to this, then they will continue losing their very best people. Um, Courtney.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

I'm Audio.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

And this is the Ed Leadership Pair Podcast. Welcome.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Well, most organizations assume that leaders leave because of pay or promotion or or uh other opportunities. But the real truth is that it's the climate that is usually the real reason that great leaders leave an organization.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

Yeah, everything surrounding them, every the way things are functioning and running and the relationships and all of that, it all plays into why people choose to go to other organizations, or even, God forbid, when you have a great leader, they go into a different role or a different job or a different career altogether. And that's the most sad thing when you see great leaders in in educational leadership leave to other careers for things that could be easy fixes.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

In today's episode, we are talking to leaders and leaders of leaders because there's sort of two layers here. You as a leader probably have leaders that you support. If you're a campus principal, you've got an administrative team, right? If you're a district office leader, you've obviously got campus principals or even people inside of your department that you lead. So guys, there's a lot of layers in today's conversation. So you know what? Let's just kind of start here. Like, uh I think the first reason why leaders leave is when their voice is not recognized, when they don't have input or opportunities to speak up to their leaders. Uh, I think that would cause great leaders to leave.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Yeah, I think one of the great questions leaders can ask themselves, and a lot of leaders get this wrong, is what are my feedback loops? What are the opportunities that I have available to the leaders around me, the leaders I'm supporting, to the teacher leaders, whatever that looks like? What are the opportunities that have I have built in systematically where they can provide input and feedback? And it's a loop. Like you have to close the loop on that feedback and have communication after that feedback has been provided. What does it look like? What are the changes that have or have not been made and why? Are there reasons why the things that they suggested or requested could not be done the way that they wanted it to be done? What opportunities as a leader are you providing for these feedback loops? And I think when you don't have that as a leader, it is very easy to be like, you know what, my opinion doesn't even matter here. Why would I stay?

SPEAKER_01 2:47

When you are a leader and nobody is asking you, hey, how is it going? What do you think about how it's going? Do you have any input or any ideas, or are there things that we, your leader, you know, leader of leaders, we're not seeing. So I just think it's such a hard truth. So many leaders of leaders get that wrong. And feedback loops are difficult because there's two parts to a feedback loop, right? There is the I seek input to help make decisions, but then after you've made a decision, you have to go back to the people who gave you input and say, here's why we made that decision. So often I think so many leaders get that part wrong, especially leaders of leaders. Because so many times, you know, Court, you and I served in the same school district, both as high school principals of very large high schools, and you and I both sat in so many meetings where our opinion was solicited. What do y'all think? And then we would tell people what we would tell our bosses what we thought. Our direct bosses were not always the ones who were making the final decision. They were just sort of the conduits. So um, we want to say right up front, we love Becky Donald, we love Nov Yonker, right? We we don't want to take any shots at air ass. We love Danny Presley. Uh, even our superintendent that we served under Steve Flood is this is not meant to attack people, it's more of a systems conversation. We it would be in principals' meetings, people would ask our opinion, we'd give our opinion, and then we'd leave. Fine, no problem. We, the leaders, the principals, we weren't gonna make that decision, but then a decision would get made counter to what we gave feedback on, and nobody explained why that decision was counter to what we thought. And so it starts to drive you mad. You're like, okay, don't ask my opinion. If you're not gonna use it, it gives me a sense of false hope. It gives me a sense of feeling used or abused or um almost maybe mistreated. Like because we said this, you went the other direction. Now, I'm sure that was probably not true, but it gives you that feeling of like, gosh, if you don't come back and you said close the feedback loop, it it makes leaders feel devalued, right? It doesn't mean that leaders should make every decision. In other words, a campus principal can't make every decision for the district, but you gotta let us know after the fact here's why we did something different.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

If you're gonna ask, if you're if you're gonna ask, then you definitely, if all of us come together with the same voice and we're all telling you, hey, this is what we feel like should happen, and then it doesn't happen that way, you absolutely got to come back around and be like, hey, we tried looking at it that way, and here's why that couldn't happen. And that it happened a lot with like departmental people, with like random different departments that would come in and ask us something in a principal's meeting, and we would say that, and then they would go back and do something different.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

Gosh, I'm just gonna say something that might be unpopular with leaders of leaders, but the honest truth is I as I travel around the country, a lot of leaders of leaders are hesitant to put leaders around the table to get input and to help make decisions. It's a miss. Right. I agree. It's a big miss because you're like, well, hey, I don't want it to turn into a complaint session. I don't want to have that many cooks in the kitchen. But we believe that great leaders will leave if they don't feel like there is an opportunity for their voice to be heard. So for leaders of leaders, right, it's such a miss, as you said, to not give your leaders an opportunity to sit around the table. It doesn't mean they have to drive the bus. It just means great leaders need to be heard. Yeah. And and gosh, god forbid, one of your great leaders around the table might have an idea or a thought or a perspective that maybe you might miss if you're not listening or not asking the right questions.

SPEAKER_00 6:30

Yeah, because they're the ones in the trenches. They're the ones in the community talking with teachers, students, parents. They have the ear of the people that we're actually intending to serve. And so leaving them out of the conversation is you're right. That that is such a disservice to the organization as a whole. Um, I think another one that comes up that God, if you're if you're a principal, or maybe if you're a superintendent and you got a board that's a little wily and uh I don't know, out of control.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

It doesn't happen. No, I school boards are never a problem.

SPEAKER_00 7:01

We've never had a crazy school board ever. We've never seen one. Um, but I think by never, we mean always all the time. I think when decisions are imposed on you as a leader and you don't get the why behind it, you don't get the, you don't get a chance to get the true understanding of of what's going on behind the scenes. That would be incredibly frustrating to me when that happens. And it's like, I have to support this decision or this new program or platform that I'm now expected to use with my kids and my teachers and parents, whatever. But I don't, I don't understand why we're doing this. Why are we making this change? Like the change management issues of the people above me would get really frustrating when they were not thorough in their processes. Just like my teachers would get really ticked off at me if I wasn't thorough in change management. But when those decisions are imposed on you and you've had no voice in it, super frustrating.

SPEAKER_01 8:01

Yeah, I would say this nothing disengages great leaders faster than realizing their voice just flat doesn't matter. So whether you're just being told thou shalt do this, or whether you live in an ongoing situation where you have no seat at the table, or whether there's no feedback loop, right? I think these are all symptoms of the same problem. It's something that many leaders of leaders get really wrong. You have got to create space and time and and opportunity for great leaders to share their voice. Because as we said, if if great leaders don't have a voice, they feel devalued, and that is a quick exit right out of the organization.

SPEAKER_00 8:42

Yeah. And there's there's a lot, I mean, what you're talking about, we've talked about it before with psychological safety and feeling like you can speak honestly, you can be open about your thoughts and opinions and your experience on your campus or in your department, whatever it is. And there's a lot of research on that that that shows that leaders need this psychological safety to be able to challenge ideas, to offer feedback, to admit mistakes, to innovate, all of the it's all tied together. And it's if you are not offering this voice to your leaders that you are supporting, then you're taking away that psychological safety. The truth that I think a lot of leaders need to hear is if you lead leaders and you can ask yourself this question when was the last time that I changed a decision based on feedback that I gathered from the people that I support? And what did that look like? And that's such a critical component to keeping your good people with you is giving the opportunity for them to provide input and feedback and for you to actually respond to that input and feedback. So let's let's talk about another area where it could cause your great leaders to step aside, go somewhere else, look into another career.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

You and I are brainstorming. What are all the things that we have experienced or that we find in research or that we've seen in our colleagues over the years on what causes great leaders to leave? How about this? How about when the people that lead the leaders are micromanagers or the person? What if you work for a micromanager? I think that's really, really one of the reasons why great leaders leave. And and what if the organization itself uh functions in chaos, right? Lack of strategic plan, lack of strategic vision, lack of a systematic way of uh going about business, and it's just stuff everywhere, right? Today it is now. I wasn't gonna say that, but we're trying to keep it clean for our uh YouTube ratings. But right, it's stuff today, it's stuff tomorrow, something different. Now do this, now do that. And by the way, I'm gonna tell you how to do it, right? So I'm gonna give you 6,000 different things and I'm gonna micromanage you through all the things. Whoo! I think that uh we have colleagues living through this right now, friends of ours that that work around us, that they're like, God, it's just every day a new thing and a new directive and a new uh somebody telling you what to do. So it starts to make people feel like, well, what am I here for? If you're gonna come down and do this job, boss, then just do it. Do it for all 25 of us, you know, and and we'll all go out and have a picnic.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

Yeah, absolutely. I okay, let's start with the micromanagement. Those are two really big things. Yeah. So as far as micromanagement, I know for me personally, this is a huge one. If I have a leader that is micromanaging me, you don't need me then. Like you absolutely do not need my skills and abilities. And I'm I'm out. I'm gonna go somewhere where I can do more than what you are expecting of me. Um, I think micromanagement is one of the fastest ways to drive great leaders out of an organization. As far as micromanagement goes, I think it is a really dangerous road to go down. And not that you should not support your employees or the people that you're supporting in the most appropriate way. But I think for everyone you're leading, you have to look at them as individuals and say, okay, where is this person's will and where is this person's skill? And you can almost lay them out on a little graph. And then if their will and their skill, or if either one of those are really low, then you need to be an author for them. And maybe you need to get a little more, a little more scripted. Maybe they're brand new and they don't really know and they're super coachable and they're willing to take it on and and they just don't know and they're looking for that help. You you can serve as more of an author for them. And then let's say they move up into the kind of next tier where they've got a little more skill and they're they're willing to go that next mile. Then you be you move from author and you're kind of an editor where they're doing work and you're giving them feedback and input on what they're doing and um and you're just kind of watching them, but like trying to keep them within within the boundaries. Like here, here's the road you got to stay within and just kind of keep them in in between the bumpers. And then you have someone who's just one of these rock star people that if you micromanage them, good God, it would be the kiss of death. And for those people that have high will, high skill, if you are leading those people, first of all, thank God that you have somebody amazing that's leading, leading your teams and and leading your schools and whatever that is. But for those people, your greatest gift is to be an influencer for them and to really just say, hey, have you thought about? Hey, what would happen if? Hey, you know, you're you're really in a way different style of coaching than somebody who is a brand new, new, new, new leader. And I think you have to take into account where each one of their skills and abilities are and look at it as how do I need to best serve this person? Do I need to be an author, an editor, or an influencer? You can't micromanage all three. And really, you shouldn't micromanage any of them. You in any of those cases, you're being a coach. It's just different kinds of coaching for the people you're leading.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

So we're talking about leaders of leaders. So campus principals, right now, you're probably sitting nodding along, thinking about, yeah, my my executive director or my area superintendent or my my superintendent. Um, but I want to make sure, campus leaders, that this is landing on you as well because our administrative teams are also consistent of leaders. You have assistant principals or other leaders on your teacher leaders. Teacher leaders. So when we're talking about leaders of leaders, that's why we titled this episode exactly as we did, because yes, principals, does this apply to us a lot when it comes to district office leadership and an implication on our work? Yes, but we want to make sure we don't let you all off the hook, principals. You are as accountable to your administrative teams as your superintendent is, or your executive director, or your area superintendent is for the principal teams. So we want to make sure I saw the principals nodding along way too comfortably. I could hear it across my he phones. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

So yeah, get them, get them. I'm sending this to my executive directors.

SPEAKER_01 15:02

Sending this to my I want to make sure, right, principals, we got to make sure we don't get this wrong either, that we have fledgling leaders or sometimes veteran leaders. And Courtney's advice to be an author and an editor or an influencer, that applies just as much to the campus principal and their teams as it would to district leaders and campus principals.

SPEAKER_00 15:22

Yep, absolutely. Now, the second point that you brought up in talking about this particular area, you talked about the chaos that can come. Thank you for that. That was lovely. We're starting to add some sound effects of right, yes, coming straight from the man himself. Um, yeah, when you have this like initiative chaos of just an overload of priorities and saying, now you're gonna do this and now you're gonna try that, and now you're gonna do this. I mean, good God, nothing will I mean, that is horrific as a leader to have to go back to your faculty or have to go back to your part department and be like, okay, now we're gonna shift to this new thing. Now we're gonna try this new thing. So frustrating.

SPEAKER_01 16:05

Clown Joe. Clown, right? Because you as a as a remember, we're talking about why do great leaders leave? You're a great leader. And if you're working in an organization where there is no strategic vision, where there is no consistency, no discipline, no, no, no structure, then as a great leader, you're like, get me the heck out of here. I can't work in a place where we've got no vision, where we've got no support, where we've got no consistency. How am I supposed to build anything in that environment? I want to offer to the listeners that there is a structure in which I have become very familiar with, and also I am a co-author on some of the literature, which is called the High Reliability Schools Framework and the High Reliability Schools Process. You can find the books that they're called Leading High Reliability Schools and a handbook for high reliability schools. But just so that everyone listening knows, if you're a leader of leaders and you're like, okay, how do I prevent that type of chaos? Well, in our framework of a high reliability school, we set these target conditions, these school improvement targeting conditions, right? And and they're built on a hierarchy, and there's very few of them. And the premise behind it is look, these conditions are proven to work in schools via a lot of research. Now, go build them. Go build them in a way that works for you, for your campus, for your community. And as you're building them, just make sure they're working. So that type of thinking, this high reliability mindset that says, we're gonna focus on the right conditions and we're gonna give it time and we're gonna give it energy and we're gonna give it consistency and we're gonna measure it so that we can adjust instead of just throwing a bunch of crap at it and go, Oh my God, I hope it works. Right. Instead, you've got this uh a framework, a process, and and there are many out there, but this one is a very good one, the high reliability schools framework and process if you're looking for one, because it sets a future vision on some conditions that you build, then you go build them in a way that works for you, and then you just make sure they're working and it keeps that chaos out of your system. It allows you to stay disciplined, it allows you to stay consistent, and it allows you to progress monitor without throwing the baby out with the bathwater because it's a thing that makes great leaders leave. I start building something on my campus, it really starts to work, and then the district throws it out, and all of a sudden everything we just did, you just ripped it right out, right? So it's that avoiding start something, build it, build it, throw it out, start all over again.

SPEAKER_00 18:32

Yeah, and I remember the moment I started creating because you have campus improvement plans and district improvement plans that you have to do every year and all of that. And I remember the first few I saw as a leader, it they every year was different, right? Like you just was this year we're gonna focus on this, and next year we're gonna focus on that. And then, and every year it would be something new and different. But once you get into this high reliability mindset, it's like, no, this is our pathway. We are sticking right here. Here's um, here's our progress to this particular initiative last year. So this year we're gonna set our new goal is gonna be at this point, and here's what we're gonna do to get there. And it became really easy to write out your campus improvement plan. At the campus level, writing a campus improvement plan based on the high reliability ideals is so easy. And it's not that you are taking it and regurgitating it for the next year. You're really looking at what was our data from the year before and what's the next level that we're trying to get to, or what do we need to tweak, or what do we need to refine? And so I think that's something that a lot of leaders get wrong is that from year to year, they're trying to write these new plans with new initiatives and new things that we're gonna do different to change it and make everything better. And it's like, no, stop it. Let's get the flywheel going, let's get things moving, let's get on a roll so that people know what the priorities are. And it's not a surprise, it's not a gotcha, it's not something crazy coming up the next year that's gonna freak everybody out. Just stay consistent and it keeps everybody more calm.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

Yeah, what a hard truth for leaders to hear. You're not reinventing education every year, right? Oh my God, what's the magic bullet this year? Right. It's staying focused on the right work and allowing your people to build in their capacity. That's for leaders of leaders and then for leaders of teachers, right? Because I know that's not this podcast, but teachers lose their mind when they're like, How many times are we gonna stop and start the same crap over and over again? Yes, and you don't give us time to get good at it. So it's the same thing for a leader, right? Don't change stuff every year. Let's get strategic. Let's look at this from a long, uh, from a long perspective and not every summer wake up and go, like, well, how do we solve education this year?

SPEAKER_00 20:42

Let's let's try all the new things.

SPEAKER_01 20:44

What are we doing today?

SPEAKER_00 20:46

Pinky to take over the world. No, we're not doing that. We're not doing pinky in the brain every year. Oh yeah. So as I got into ed tech and into the corporate world out of public education, it was really amazing because every department had a roadmap. And the roadmap may be multiple years long, and you're looking from year to year and actually tracking your progress from one thing to the next. And for somebody to come in and say, hey, we have a new idea. We want to try something new, then the response is, okay, first we're gonna test it. We're gonna see why we think this is gonna work better than whatever it is we're doing at the moment. And we're gonna see what initiative comes off the priority list. And then this can replace that. So you tell me what is not more important than this so that we can let that go and now focus on this because we're gonna do it right. So it's been really interesting in the corporate world to watch that you have that permission to say, this is our roadmap. And if you're going to upset the roadmap, something's coming off. It's going to be tested before it goes on to make sure this is really where we want to spend our time. And so it's been a really cool experience, but it also goes along with that high reliability school. Um, content that you were talking about, that it is highly focused and very directional. So research shows that people thrive when three needs are met and leaders have to pay attention to these three needs. Are you giving your people autonomy? Are you assuming that they have competence to do their job, or are you supporting them if they don't in ways that are appropriate? And relatedness is this idea that what we are charging our leaders to do makes sense with the things that they are actually doing and the things that they are expecting to do to serve their communities. And so micromanagement and this whole idea of chaos of initiatives can destroy a leader's autonomy. And that's gonna ultimately reduce their motivation to do their work. So let's move on to this last little section, which I basically want to call don't be an a-hole.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Don't be an a-hole.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

How about you just not be an a-hole to your people? Let's have some respect, some humanity. Oh my gosh. Like just don't be an a-hole, right?

SPEAKER_01 23:05

Yeah, yeah. I think you said it right. Um, and and you know, when you and I were prepping for the show, we talked about the fact that there's a misnomer that all leaders have to be like charismatic, that you have to be this larger-than-life personality. And I gotta convince everybody, you know, that that to follow me and be the Pied Piper. But that's not what we're talking about. And actually, that's not true for all leaders, right? What we mean is just be a good person, just be nice to people, be kind to people, be understanding, be empathetic, right?

SPEAKER_00 23:37

So you don't have to be a magnetic personality to be like, you don't have to be coaching Magoo over here standing up on the stage like he's a defensive coach.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

Well, I coached offense. Coached offensive football.

SPEAKER_00 23:49

I don't know, I don't know what that means, but cool, cool story, bro. That's awesome. But just be a good person, be kind.

SPEAKER_01 23:57

Kind and caring and um and and uh creating that kind of climate where people feel valued, people feel respected, people feel supported, um, people feel heard. There's a hard truth that we all have to tackle outside of education right now. When we look at the American society as a whole, let's be honest that the leaders we see on TV aren't modeling this very well. And this show is an apolitical show, so we are not talking about politics, we're just talking about the examples of leaders that we see when we turn on the TV. They're typically not full of humility and kindness and respect and empathy. And so our children are watching this, and so it is even more important for leaders of leaders to be empathetic and kind and understanding and just human, good humans, non-a-holes, because if you think about it, we charge our teachers every day to go take care of kids, right? That's their charge. Hey, put kids' needs above yours, but yet if I treat you like an a-hole teacher, you're not gonna be willing to turn around and go take care of kids, or it's gonna be a lot harder to. And so then if you're a leader of leaders, don't treat them like an a-hole because then they've got to turn around and take care of their teachers, right? There's this thing trickles down. So there is this societal problem that we have about the way leaders behave in bigger places, but I would argue in schools, we've got to bring kindness and respect and humility because our model goes from leaders of leaders to then leaders of campuses, to then teachers, to then our most precious resource what we're all here for are the children. And so I think this is a big, big issue when it comes to what makes leaders leave. If you treat me like an Ahult, yeah, I'm gonna go find somebody who's not gonna treat me like an Ault.

SPEAKER_00 25:42

And another thing leaders need to hear, when the leaders you're supporting are treating people that way, they have got to be addressed because that is going to kill your culture. People will tolerate hard feedback, but they will disengage very quickly when the feedback becomes disrespectful. If you have an assistant principal being nasty to a teacher, that is so unnecessary and it must be addressed. Must be, has to be. When I was an AP, and I think it was my first year, and I was writing a growth plan for a teacher for the first time. And I remember I was working with my supervisor on the growth plan. This person literally printed out my first draft of the growth plan and redlined it with a red pin, like on paper, redlined, crossed through things, wrote notes, and it was it was harsh. And I can take some harsh feedback. Like that, I'm okay with that. So I would take it back and then I would go change it and adjust based on the recommendations. And then I brought it back and it got redlined again. And I was like, okay, this is clearly not going well, and I don't think I'm getting it. So I went back. The third time I took that document back to this supervisor to have it gone through and it got redlined. I could literally take version one and version three, and I saw things that had been redlined in the first one were told to put back in the third one. And I realized at that time, I said, Oh my God, this person is just trying to break me. Like just trying to see how much I can take, how much I am gonna handle before I break. And it was awful. And finally, I mean, I just called him on it and said, I'm not doing this anymore. And if this is so terrible, then I would love to see what a good version of this is gonna look like. And I gave it back to her, and she eventually we we got through it. We worked through it. You worked through it, we worked through it, but it was real rough and it was so nasty. And I vowed in my, I was like, I will never try to make someone feel small so that I feel big. You never need to treat anyone like that.

SPEAKER_01 27:58

That type of an experience with a leader, when a leader gets treated like that by one of their leaders, then trust is absolutely gone. Oh I would imagine then you had a really hard time trusting that particular supervisor moving forward. Because, like you said, now I don't trust that your intentions aren't just of malintent to just like you said, try and break me or try and try and toughen me up, or whatever it was that was the intent. Um, that was obviously misguided. So much research when you talk about leadership and trust that'll show that people will really great leaders can tolerate hard feedback. And Courtney just said it. And Court, you you really are a great leader. And I've seen you work for great bosses where they can give you all kinds of feedback and you take it and you'll make things better and better and better based on feedback. So it's very true. Great leaders actually thrive on good feedback. So it's not about taking feedback, it's just if we don't trust the people giving us feedback, um, then we disengage pretty quickly. And your story of like, yeah, all right, you know what? Screw it, you do it then.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

Yeah, absolutely. If much show me what perfection looks like. Yeah, you show show me what perfect looks like. Yeah, clearly, I cannot do this. I am not equipped to do this. Coach me in the way by showing me exactly author this for me, because I I obviously cannot do this.

SPEAKER_01 29:13

So, right here is a good opportunity to give the listeners a good resource. So there is a journal article from the Journal of Applied Psychology written by uh two authors, Dirks and Fernan. And it's from 2002. The article's title is Trust in Leadership. And so it gives uh studies, empirical studies on what the costs are in the organization if there is no trust in leadership. And of course, it gives recommendations on how leaders can create trust with the people that they that they serve.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

Looking at everything, and we just kind of talk through some of our own experiences because it's our podcast and we can do that. We can talk about whatever we want. But I think ultimately, if if organizations want to retain great leaders, there are four things that you really want to pay attention to. Do the leaders that I'm supporting feel heard? Do they trust me, trust my intentions? Am I creating the conditions for which they are believing that I have their best interest in the organization's best interest at heart? Do I respect them and they respect me in turn? Like it's this reciprocal idea of that. And then also, do they feel supported or do they feel like I'm trying to break them down and make things harder than it really needs to be, or attacking for some reason or another, so that I feel bigger about myself. And so I think as a leader, evaluating how you are treating your leaders is really important to take a minute and stop and ask yourself some of these questions. For those of you who are in situations right now where maybe you have leaders that aren't exhibiting these behaviors, send them our podcast. Like go ahead, forward it along. Tell them, hey, this is a great little podcast. Maybe some things in here you want to hear. I don't know. I didn't really listen to it, but I heard it was pretty good. Just send it on over.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

That's a nice trick. Hey, you might want to take a listen to this. I hear there's some good stuff in here. I didn't listen to it, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 31:08

You may like it. Many leaders get this piece wrong. Great leaders don't leave hard work, they leave environments where they're gonna feel ignored, controlled, or even disrespected. It's not about the work, it's about the climate and the culture that they're in.

SPEAKER_01 31:25

Couldn't agree with you more. Organizations don't lose great leaders because leadership is hard. They lose them because the leadership above them is broken. And when great leaders realize that the leadership above them is broken, they look for the exit. We thank you all for tuning in. Please don't forget to follow us on our social media platforms. We have added TikTok to our young bucks. Find us just throwing in the TikTok, find us on Instagram, find us on our YouTube channel, and of course at our website www.theedleadershippair.com. We'll sign out. I'm Mario.

SPEAKER_00 31:59

I'm Courtney.