Don’t Lose Your Best Teachers (Part 2) | What To Do About Sprouts & Shadows - Ep 16

How to grow willing teachers and confront the ones destroying your culture

🎯 Episode Summary

Supporting veteran teachers is one of the most complex and misunderstood responsibilities of school leadership. This episode breaks down Sprouts and Shadows and how to support or confront each to protect your culture.

🔥 Key Takeaway

“If you don’t address shadows directly, they will infect your entire culture.”

🌱 Understanding Sprouts

Sprouts are willing, values-aligned teachers who need confidence and skill development.

“I’ll do it… but can someone show me first?”

Leaders should pair sprouts with strong teachers and provide targeted support through collaboration.

🌑 Understanding Shadows

Shadows are teachers who prioritize their own needs over the school and resist change for personal reasons.

“Shadows don’t just resist… they reshape your culture if left unchecked.”

⚡ The 3 Leadership Options for Shadows

1. Earn the right to resist by being effective.

2. Get on board and grow with support.

3. Find a better fit outside the organization.

“You either get better, get on board… or get out.”

⚠️ Critical Insight

Not all shadows start that way; systems can create them through instability and turnover.

🎯 Final Leadership Shift

Leaders are not the center; teachers are. Your role is to support and protect the culture.

🔁 Call to Action

Share this episode and visit www.theedleadershippair.com to learn more.

🎙️ Closing Thought

“The better you understand your people, the more powerful your leadership becomes.”

🔗 Connect With Us

📸 Instagram: @edleadership_pair

▶️ YouTube: The EdLeadership Pair

🎥 TikTok: @theedleadershippair

🌐 Website & Newsletter: www.theedleadershippair.com

Join our growing community of school leaders navigating today’s challenges together.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Supporting veteran teachers is one of the most dynamic and potentially difficult jobs of a school leader. Veteran teachers have such varying needs. They come in different phases of their career. They are in need of different types of support, and they each have their own individual desires for what not only their career looks like, but how they contribute to the school's culture and to how the school supports student success. So in today's episode, we're going to continue our exploration of the framework in the schools our students deserve, and specifically supporting leaders on how to support their veteran teachers.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

I'm Courtney. And I'm Modio, and this is the Ed Leadership Pair Podcast. Let's jump in. Today we are talking about our sprouts and our shadows.

SPEAKER_02 0:57

The Sprouts and the Shadows. We get into the other side of the framework today. We are going to use uh some of the literature that's framed in the book that I just wrote and was published this August. It's called The Schools Our Students Deserve. We're going to just give you some of the frameworks from inside of this book. We'll discuss how leaders can use this concept to support veteran teachers.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

Today we're going to dive in with a group that may require a little more care and attention are Sprouts and Our Shadows.

SPEAKER_02 1:26

Connecting back to last week's episode, just a quick summary. If you're just tuning into this episode and haven't had a chance to go back and listen to last week, the first two frames of our veteran teacher, really, it's really about all teachers, but we are looking at it through the lens of veteran teachers are the scouts. These are innovation drivers, the teachers who what feeds and fuels them is the opportunity and the safety to innovate and try new things. The second frame were our sentinels. Our sentinels are also extremely talented, extremely effective educators, but instead of innovation, their desire is to uh maintain what has always worked here. These people understand our traditions, they know our institution, and they know what has brought us success in the past. And their mindset is about holding firm to what we know works. So last week we dived into how leaders can support those two types of veteran teachers. Really excited to dive into the next two frames.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

All right, let's move on to number three, which is our sprouts. Talk to us about the sprout persona a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

Yeah, so sprouts are the teachers who share the school's values, right? So they're on board. These are people that are on board. I believe in Westwood High. I am in all in on McNeil High. I just don't have the confidence or the skill set to be a scout. In other words, you're asking me to go try some new AI tools in my classroom. And I just am like, God, I barely know how to use a spreadsheet. So I'm all in, like I believe in what we're doing for kids, but that I just am not comfortable with that thing. So that makes me a sprout because I'm growable. In other words, I'm not resisting it. I just can somebody show me first? Somebody's got to figure it out. And then once somebody figures it out, I'm come help me, I'll do it. Right. Yeah. So in veteran leadership, that's probably it's somebody who's changed a grade level, somebody who you moved to a different uh content area, somebody who now has uh EL learners for the first time. So in veteran leaders, we have to acknowledge that veteran leaders aren't veteran in everything, right? Just because I taught 20 years, you might have given me a new environment or I might be dealing with a new crop of kids that I'm on board, but I might need to be in sprout zone right here, meaning I still need some growth and I need some people to pour into me because I don't quite know all the right answers at all the right times. Now, leaders, just quickly on sprouts. Most sprouts tend to be our more inexperienced teachers most of the time, right? I'm only I've only taught two years. I'm generally sprouty. I'm on board, but gosh, I'm still trying to figure out up from down. But sprouts can definitely be veteran teachers, especially when they're in a change type of environment.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

When they're experiencing something new that is kind of rocking the world a little bit. Yeah. So it's a little bit of kind of the teachers who say, I will do it, I'll try it, but can somebody show me first? So it seems like for a sprout, a really great support for them would have methods of co-teaching what this is and a lot of modeling for them. And then they'll be able to come on board as they learn it and figure it out in through that process.

SPEAKER_02 4:36

Yeah. I don't know if anybody's ever heard of the acronym PLC and the idea of like school-wide collaboration. So this is where PLC, I think, was really meant to be. Why wouldn't you put scouts in with Sprouts? And if the goal of a PLC is we are collaborating together for the betterment of school and student outcomes, there it is right there. Hey, I got I got these EL learners. I've never taught EL learners, but the two of you are like master EL learners. What if we spent an hour on Wednesday and you pour into me? See, I'm not answering four questions, I'm not filling out forms, but that's PLC. It's school-wide collaboration for the betterment of the teachers and the and the ultimate outcomes for kids. So I think when you think of your sprouts, especially your veteran sprouts, what kind of collaborative team are they on? Who are they around that can pour into them and can help them grow? And it's not necessarily grow all the way around. It's like, I need help in this one area. Right. So maybe we have a meeting for two weeks about ELs. And I've been, okay, I got I got it. I got enough right now. Let's not keep meeting about that. Give me, give me a minute, I'm gonna go play with it in my classroom. Yeah. So I definitely think you're on to that. That pairing scouts and sprouts, and hey, even this sentinels, sentinels do good things. Sentinels can help us a sprout too. Now, the danger with the sentinel is remember, if you try to get the sprout to do something new, the sentinel's not really gonna be good at teaching them something new. But if the if you're trying to get the sprout to do something old that we do really well, there's no better person to put them with than a veteran sentinel, right? Yeah, hey, we run a really strict discipline program here that works for our kids. I'm new to your school. At my last school, kids ran the school. It was wild. So I need to know how we do discipline here. Yeah, I don't need a scout, I need a good sentinel. Hey, bud, I'm gonna take you under my wing. I will teach you exactly how we document, exactly how we collect data, exactly how we contact families. So when we say put sprouts with other veterans, it doesn't just mean a scout. A scout is good at trying new things. A sentinel is better at teaching us the ways of how we do that here.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

Yeah, yeah. So it sounds like for a sprout, what you're really doing is you are supporting them by helping them grow their confidence in whatever that area is. Is that right?

SPEAKER_02 6:56

That's exactly right. Okay. I mean, uh, and it's a it's a very important part of research, which is called teacher self-efficacy, right? You're putting them in that opportunity for them to build their own efficacy because they're it's not a resistance. They're like, I'm on board. I just don't know how to do this very well. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So that's low teacher self-efficacy when they don't have confidence in their own ability. So then now put me around others to grow my self-efficacy. And you also talked about things like professional development opportunities. Sprouts are a magnificent candidate for professional development because they are seeking development, just like our scouts are, but our scouts are seeking like high-level try something new. Sometimes our sprouts are like, Can you send me just to like Harry Wong 101? Now, anybody listening? Some people are like, let's not eat Harry Wong. Yeah, not everybody, but some of you know who Harry Wong was. He was like a uh the guru of classroom management way back when we were rules and procedures. Rules and procedures, classic. So, right, maybe the sprout doesn't need to go to AI training. The sprout might be like, hey, I just need to tighten something that's just real classic, right?

SPEAKER_00 8:04

And I'm in, I'm I'm good. I want to do it. I just don't know how to. So I I need to be taught.

SPEAKER_02 8:11

Yeah. So filling the buckets of your sprouts, if you've got a veteran sprout, it's that they want to, they want help. They're all in. They want to be, they want to be part of the school. And I I mean, I've I can remember so many teachers that used to come to me and like, I want to help. Where can I help? What committee can I get on? And it's like, you're not, you're not talented enough yet for me to give you this in total, but I can pair you in with that committee because I got three scouts and two sentinels on this committee. Yeah, we could use somebody like you that wants to learn and wants to grow. Because here's the thing, Court, a sprout who spends time learning and growing is gonna turn into a scout that we can leverage into the future.

SPEAKER_01 8:48

Yep. Yep. All right, let's move on to the fun one, right? And this one, we're not we're not talking about the shadows in a romanticy book. We are talking about veteran teachers that are our shadows. I threw him off with that one. He didn't know I was gonna come out with that.

SPEAKER_02 9:09

Romantic.

SPEAKER_01 9:10

Anybody rating Quicksilver, brimstone? You know what I'm talking about. Not those kind of shadows. Nope.

unknown 9:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:17

Courtney's gonna ruin our YouTube rating. We try hard not to end up, yeah. YouTube's about to knock us down a peg of rating because of these romanticies that so I've heard, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

Not you, but someone chat about the books.

SPEAKER_02 9:36

Hit Courtney up on our DMs. We're on TikTok, we're on Instagram. She will take a DM about a romanticy as long as it stays above board, everybody, because that's your husband's super beer.

SPEAKER_01 9:51

All right, let's move into shadows, talking about the teacher shadows.

SPEAKER_02 9:54

This is the fourth frame of the of the framework in our in the schools our students deserve. And shadows are members of the school culture who have slipped into a resistance that is based on their own individual need. In other words, they have no longer placed the values of the school or the needs of the kids or the needs of their colleagues at the center. This is now strictly about their own individual personal priorities or needs. So if you'll remember, Dr. Muhammad taught us that in every culture there are resistors. And what I learned is that those resistors sort into two categories. Sentinels are resisting for the good of the school, shadows are resisting for the good of themselves. And the hard truth for leaders is the shadows will suck the life out of the entire culture. These people are a danger to the organization because if shadows are allowed to have their way, and if our priority becomes what's good for the individual, then all your systems and everything you do will fall apart. So, leaders, when it comes to shadows, unfortunately, these people must be dealt with directively. This is gonna be far less about professional development. This is gonna be far less about teaming, this is gonna be far less about sending you to a conference because collaboration. They don't care. None of that matters. It's not better for me. Why don't I want to collect data on kids? Because that's not good for me. It's too hard. Why don't I want to be in a PLC? Because I don't want to talk to other people, it's not good for me. I don't like it. Why don't I want to improve my instructional practices? Because I laminated my lesson plan seven years ago, and I used that same lesson on the second Tuesday of March, and I'm not gonna take the time to unlaminate it.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

Oh, so painful.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

Those are shadowy, those are shadowy tells. And you know what's really painful? People say those words to me as a guest when I go visit schools. I've had teachers look me in the eye and say, hey, what you're presenting is is it makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 12:07

Like in 2026.

SPEAKER_02 12:08

Yeah, like this year. They're like, what you're presenting makes sense. I can see how the students need this or their brains need that, but you know what? My lesson plans are done. I've laminated my stuff for the year, so maybe I'll look at it for next year. Yeah, I can't imagine to me. And and I because I don't work for school systems anymore, it's really hard for me not to just completely fly off the handle. Right? When you work for a school system, like you have to behave. I'm like, I never do, but in my brain, and I it's it's insane. That's so that's that's shadowy behavior. Do you have any experience with shadows in all of your leadership? Well, Inuvid, can you tell us the shadow story or two?

SPEAKER_01 12:48

Yeah, I have many, many shadow stories. The the the one that makes me kind of laugh though is I as you were talking, it came to my head. I remember this year having a meeting with our e-tech, the teacher advisory committee at Edmontum, and they were asking me, I can't, it was some rule that we, some new policy that we had to put into place because a shadow had made a really poor decision. And the person in eTech was the teacher, was like, why why would why would this be a policy? I don't understand why we would even have to do this before. Who, like, why would you even think that a teacher would do that? And in the back of my head, I'm like, because somebody did. So anyway, it was just funny to me because I was like, yeah, somebody somebody did that. And that's why there is a policy in place. And the the group was shocked. They were just absolutely, what? Somebody would do that. I can't believe somebody would do that. Yeah, it's not normal. It's not the the largest percentage of your faculty that behaves this way, that is this level of selfish, but it does happen. It absolutely happens. Um, and it's, you know, I had a teacher that refused, you know, teachers that refuse to teach a certain prep because they don't want to be with those kids. They don't want that level of student, or a teacher that refuse to not teach all of the AP courses in a certain grade because that's what they've taught forever. And again, that's what they're comfortable teaching. That's, and so they want to give the new teachers all the students who might struggle and need the most levels of intervention and the highest level of expertise as a teacher. And they want to feel like they can give all those really tougher classes to teach because of what's needed to new students, to new teachers. And I that's really selfish. When I think about the shadows, I'm thinking about like the selfish teachers, just to put it really bluntly, the ones that are in it for themselves, that want whatever's easiest for them. And there's there are definitely examples of that. But I also have to go back and remind myself, if I really looked at every year that I've worked with teachers, what percent of percentage of teachers are actually like that? And it's very low. Very low. Very few teachers that are that level of selfish actually get into teaching into the profession because it's not like we're making gobs of money hand over fist. It's not like we're, you know, it is it is a selfless job by nature. So it's not a lot of teachers that fall into this category, but it definitely happens. And I have definitely had to protect my campus when it came to addressing issues like this. And this is when it comes into the importance of holding people accountable whose behaviors do not manifest in the way that you expect your culture to be. And so for me as a leader, yes, I had these people. It always was just really obvious, selfish people, and they had to be addressed and it had to be swift. You could not let them sit in this behavior and continue to like rot and fester within your culture and in your community. Because the other thing that I think they like to do is they like to feel justified and and can pull people in with them. And that's where it gets really dangerous is if they start to infest the rest of your staff or or if they try to, um, then it can get really dangerous.

SPEAKER_02 16:30

That is 100% the danger, is that shadows will infect the culture if left unchecked. So you described it, I think, to perfectly well is that uh administrators, uh leaders listening, shadows have to be dealt with directively. You must come at them head on and their behavior must be stopped. You cannot behave that way. Um, but let me put a wrinkle in here because I've seen this a lot traveling around the country. You are correct that most teachers aren't shadowy by nature because it's not a shadowy type profession. But what has happened, and I've seen this in a lot of schools, when leadership turns over frequently, principal after principal after principal after principal, what happens is the sentinels they start to get real salty and they turn from sentinalism to shadowdom because it's the only way they can survive. It becomes them against the world. And so a new leader walks in, and almost there are no sentinels. The shadows have formed out of like a callus of trauma. And so if you think about it, when I say trauma, I mean small T. Obviously, there are bigger things in life than you're then you have this leadership turnover. But on a teacher camp, if you think teachers, year over year over year, new principal, new principal, new principal, new initiatives, new principal, they start to harden and callus, and you can end up with a large portion of your staff being shadows, not because they are shadowy by nature, but because that environment has turned them into shadows.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

Yeah, which then I could see that feeds the leadership turnover because it's it's way too hard of a job to keep fighting these shadows when it is a mass of teachers. I could see that happening for sure. That makes sense. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 18:12

And within the last six weeks, I was on a campus where this is exactly what's happening. And there's a really good leader, and she said to me, using these these four-frame metaphors, she said, Okay, I realize what's going on. I don't really have sentinels because my shadows have bullied everybody. I can't, I have people who want to scout, but they won't scout because they're getting called out by these shadows. They're getting picked on and bullied. That's heartbreaking. Yeah. So this principal said, Okay, now that I realize you've helped me realize who my people are, again, that's why a framework can be so helpful, right? This principal was able to take all that invisible stuff and start to name who's who and why they are who they are. And she said, Okay, now I know what to do. She said, I'm not gonna let the shadows win. We're gonna wrestle this culture back from them and we're gonna rebuild it. And when we rebuild it, we're gonna re-invite them back in, and they probably won't be shadow anymore. Yeah, they'll probably snap out of it and re-find their places.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

She needs a sunshine corner. She needs a sunshine corner.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

She needs a lot of things, but leaders, when you're dealing with veteran shadows, what I would say you need to do is I'm gonna give you three options for your shadows. All right, this is tangible in the mud. Here's what you do option one. If you're resisting and you refuse to do what we want you to do, then you can resist as long as you're really good at your job. See, the problem with shadows is they're not usually good teachers. So I used to say, like, I'll take resistance from sentinels because why is a sentinel resisting? They're really good and they're trying to convince me that the way they do it is good. I will take that all day long. But if you're a shadow and you're trying to resist and argue with me, you can't argue with me if you suck. So the first thing I used to say to shadows was, Hey, you want to resist, get better. Earn the right to resist because right now you suck. You can't say that, right, leaders, but you got to deliver that message. If you want to resist, you have to earn the right to resist by being good with kids in the classroom. So that's option one. Option number two you suck. Get on board with us. Quit resisting. I will help you get better. A lot of times, shadows slip into shadowdom because they have had such failure over time that they lose, they they lose confidence in themselves and and they turn into negative beings. So if you say, look, it's okay that you're not like I get that you're struggling, but just get on board with me. Quit fighting me. I'll develop you, right? Basically, turn into a sprout. So that's option two. Quit resisting. It's okay that you're not good at this. We'll help you and create that safe space. Option number three, get the hell out of here, right? You're not maybe a bad human, but you cannot exist in this culture. We'll find you a different tribe, we'll find you another place to be. And in the episode with our mentor, Dr. Fril Warwick, he talked about sometimes you just have to help people find a better fit. Sometimes with the shadows, that's the third option, right? Find a better fit. So either get better and earn the right to resist, stop resisting, option two, and we'll help you get better, or option three, you got to find a better place to be for you.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

You know, my can I talk about my mom for just a minute, who was a longtime secondary principal, middle school um level, and an uh and an administrator at the district level as well. And I remember she told me when she had teachers like this that were this difficult, one of my favorite quotes that she would say was letting them know in their conversation about a growth plan, just putting it out there, I will be furniture in your classroom. Just that level of accountability. I will be furniture in your classroom and nothing will slide. And I remember that has stuck with me for, I don't know, 25, 30 years. Just that idea of being that level of holding people accountable.

SPEAKER_02 21:57

And you think about our sweet Gigi, and she she was. It was tough. Gigi's Gigi was.

SPEAKER_01 22:01

Oh, Gigi was hardcore. You people see Gigi as just Gigi. I saw Susan's former principal and assistant superintendent. That's who I was raised by.

SPEAKER_02 22:11

That's it's a great thing. So, leaders, just close off the fourth frame. Your shadows are dangerous. They are really, really detrimental to your organization. And here's the thing all the other members of the organization are sitting there watching you. Are you going to deal with this person? And in an episode, uh, three or four episodes back, we talked about accountability. We talked about leaders holding people accountable. It's at this moment with veteran shadows that they have to be helped to get better, helped to get on board, or helped to get out of the organization. Because if you don't, the rest of your school is watching you and you lose trust and you lose credibility and you lose the ability to lead the rest of your staff if you don't hit the shadows head on.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

And can I can I just add for the principal that you were talking about that identified that, oh my God, I I lost my sentinels to all the shadows. What great observation she had on her part to have known her staff well enough to see that that's what was happening. Once she had the framework, it sounds like she was able to quickly identify, oh, that's what it is. Because she spent time learning the culture, getting to know her staff, understanding where they were coming from and what had been going on this turnover or whatever it was that caused it. She knew them enough to be able to identify where the rot was coming from. And good on her. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 23:37

Yeah, it was a lot of fun. That's good leadership. It was with her and her team, and they they were they got on their whiteboard and they took the four frames. They drew a four like a punt square and they just started. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. And they just started started going at it. What a moment.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

What a moment. And the light, I could just imagine light bulbs going off in the room, going, This is what happened.

SPEAKER_02 23:55

Yeah, we saw it on the board. It was a lot, a lot of shadows and some powerful people. And she was like, That's why I can't get anything to move. Because the shadows are just bullying everybody.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:06

So she realized I got to cut them off. I got to go after them and then create the safety for my sentinels to sentinel again, for my scouts to scout again. So yeah, um, it was it was a fun light bulb moment. And uh again, that's what I that's why I designed the resource. So if you're listening and you're like, God, I gotta get my hands on that. The schools our students deserve, it's built into there. It's one of the features of the book is turning the invisible part of your culture visible through the people that are on your campus, through who's here and how are they manifesting in their interactions with the culture.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

Yeah, thank you. So, through the conversation that we've had, one of the things that is coming to light for me is that one thing a lot of leaders don't understand is that it's not about them being the center of the school. The leader is not the son, the veteran teachers make up the culture that is the son. And so I think we have to be really aware of our teams, of our teachers, our entire faculty, and of course, most importantly, the culture as a whole, where it is, where we aspire for it to be, what that picture of success looks like, and really gives support to our veteran teachers in the way that they need it as individuals.

SPEAKER_02 25:23

That is it, right? If we'll foster their needs, scout, sentinel, sprout, and even shadow has needs. They need to be pulled out of the shadows. So if those veterans make up the center of our universe, right? The culture, then we as leaders, now we know how to leverage the people. How do you foster your scouts? How do you foster your sentinels? So we're never going to be the center of the universe in education. Leaders are not, but we can leverage the center of the universe. It's our most powerful tool. The better I am at leveraging my solar system, the more I can create the outcomes that my vision is for our kids and for our community.

SPEAKER_01 26:01

Man, this is a conversation I wish I had had as a principal. And it's not something, yes, I had Anthony Muhammad's book, but I think the importance of those resistors coming out even further into the idea of sentinels and shadows would have been really helpful to me. So um, of course, I'm a fan of the book, but I also love the author. But I want to say to our listeners and our watchers on YouTube, if this conversation resonated with you, share the episode with another school leader.

SPEAKER_02 26:33

Yeah, and if you want to dive further into the concepts here, again, the book is called The Schools Our Students Deserve. You can find it at Marzano Resources.com. And listen, guys, this is what I do for a living now. Courtney references it all the time. So if you say, hey, Dr. Acosta, we need that, please, you know, reach out to us at our website, www.theedleadershippair.com, and I can continue to partner with you and your schools if this is the type of work you think you need. We appreciate you listening to another episode, and we hope you found some valuable insights today in this content. So we'll sign off. I'm Audio.

SPEAKER_01 27:05

I'm Courtney. This is the Ed Leadership Pair podcast.

SPEAKER_02 27:09

Thanks for listening.