Don’t Let Weak Preparation Cost You the Job | How Great Leaders Actually Get Hired - Ep 19

Hosts: Courtney Acosta & Mario Acosta
Bios: https://www.theedleadershippair.com/about-us
Podcast: The EdLeadership Pair – Unfiltered Conversations for Today’s School Leaders 

🎧 Episode Overview

Most leaders prepare for interviews the wrong way.

They memorize questions. Practice polished answers. Study accountability ratings. Try to sound impressive.

But the leaders who actually get hired prepare differently.

In this episode, Mario and Courtney break down the mindset and strategy behind successful leadership interviews. From clarifying your core beliefs to researching organizational culture, they unpack what separates leaders who simply apply for jobs from leaders who sound ready for the role they want next.

The conversation explores why leadership interviews are really about identity, vision, and alignment—not rehearsed answers—and introduces The EdLeadership Pair Interview Framework, a four-part process leaders can use to prepare for their next opportunity with clarity and confidence.

If you are a teacher aspiring to leadership, an assistant principal pursuing the principalship, or a current leader preparing for the next level, this episode provides practical guidance you can immediately apply.

🎯 Leadership Actions

✅ Write out your core leadership beliefs before preparing for interview questions.

✅ Create 3–4 leadership themes that consistently anchor your responses.

✅ Research the organization deeply before interviewing.

✅ Practice verbalizing answers out loud—not just writing notes.

✅ Use stories from real leadership experiences to demonstrate readiness.

✅ Prepare to speak like the role you want next—not the role you currently hold.

✅ Slow yourself down during interviews and think before responding.

✅ Pay attention to everyone sitting at the interview table and connect your responses to their perspectives.

🎯 Final Thought

Leadership interviews are not performances built on memorized answers.

They are opportunities to clearly communicate:

•  what you believe, 
•  how you lead, 
•  and why you are prepared for what comes next. 

The strongest leaders walk into interviews with clarity, composure, and a deep understanding of both themselves and the organization they hope to serve.

🔗 Connect With Us

📸 Instagram: @edleadership_pair

▶️ YouTube: The EdLeadership Pair

🎥 TikTok: @theedleadershippair

🌐 Website & Newsletter: www.theedleadershippair.com

Join our growing community of school leaders navigating today’s challenges together.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Most leaders prepare for interviews in the wrong way. They study questions, they memorize answers, and they try to sound polished. However, the people that actually get the job focus on a completely different set of priorities. They know who they are, they know exactly what it is they believe, and they know how their experiences translate into the job they're trying to get. I'm Courtney.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

And I'm Mario.

SPEAKER_02 0:33

And this is the Ed Leadership Pair podcast. And today we are talking about something kind of fun. I'm kind of excited about this one interview preparation for leaders. I like it.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Yeah, it's fun. Aren't all the episodes we do fun? I mean, but I don't know. This one's kind of super fun. This is a super fun episode.

SPEAKER_02 0:51

Super fun episode.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Great, great.

SPEAKER_02 0:54

I don't know. I love talking to people about interview prep. Anytime somebody comes to me and wants coaching on that, it's I enjoy that.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Well, and you you've grown leaders now for many years because you were a district uh leader as a chief of operations, and then now you've been a hiring manager in your ed tech company for years. So I'm sure a lot of people come up to you pretty regularly, like, hey, I want this next job. Can you help me get it? So it makes sense that you're probably approached by this a lot. So let's start the episode off. Courtney and I are gonna offer you the Ed Leadership Pair Podcast Interview Framework. And there are four parts to it. Number one is clarify what you believe. Number two is know what you're heading into. Number three is reframe your experiences into the new position. And then finally, execute the interview with composure and with purpose.

SPEAKER_02 1:40

We're gonna talk about making sure that when you go in and start preparing for interviews and a few things when you're in the interview, but talk about knowing your core beliefs. We're gonna talk about researching the organization that you hope to become a part of. We're gonna talk about sounding like um you are in the job that you aspire to be in already. And we're also gonna talk about some interview strategies like slow down, just calm down, read the room, take some notes while you're in there. So what just some general good interview strategy tips?

SPEAKER_01 2:17

Yeah. So like if you were being interviewed to sit on the leadership cabinet that is directly above you. Yeah, so let's say that was what you were getting ready to do. You know, how how talk us through how would a top quality leader like yourself who has gotten many, many jobs, what's the first thing you're gonna be thinking about? And and uh just to be clear, Dr. Hockey, if you're listening, she's not applying for that job.

SPEAKER_02 2:41

No, he knows. Right.

SPEAKER_01 2:42

No, we're talking about it.

SPEAKER_02 2:42

That's the first thing. My boss knows exactly what my intentions are. Yeah, that's a good point.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

Yeah, right out the gate. Make sure your boss knows what your intentions are. All right, so Dr. Hockey, we have clarified Courtney is not applying for jobs, but in the hypothetical that you were, help us all kind of understand you are a high-level leader seeking to be the next level leader. What's the first thing you're gonna be thinking about to prepare for this interview?

SPEAKER_02 3:06

I am gonna be thinking about what my core beliefs are and how those beliefs support the work that is a part of this particular role. I think that's where I'm gonna start is leaning in on that and really settling in with what I believe to be true about that for me, and knowing how those two things connect. Um, I think that's where I would start.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

Yeah, and I think we try to point listeners to great resources. And this one is an oldie but goody, and it's start with why. You're Simon Sinek. So this idea of do you know why you lead? And we should also connect it to our Dr. Phil Warwick interview that we just published recently. He talked a lot about what the best leaders do. They have a purpose greater than themselves, they know what they believe. And so I think this tenant is the same tenant, but now you have to know that clear clearly to be able to verbalize it in an interview structure. Whatever that interview process is, now you have to be able to verbalize it. So I don't know how you did this, Court, but I know for me, I would write it out for sure. I would have kind of a storyboard for a lack of a better visual, and I would get on a whiteboard and I would kind of storyboard out what are my three or four large leadership tenets, my core beliefs. What do I believe in, regardless of the job, you know, that regardless of this job, who am I as a leader? And that's how I would begin my prep. I would sort of storyboard out my my themes because here's what I know worked for me um pretty well over the course of my career was it didn't it didn't matter what the question was, I was gonna make sure that I tied together one or more themes in the response. I was never gonna get stumped because every answer was gonna tie back to one of my, you know, two, three or four core values. And this way, not only do I stay centered in who I am when I respond, but at the same time, I'm not fumbling around trying to think, well, what do I think? No, I already know what I think. I think these three or four things. So now I'm gonna answer your question in the context of the values that I hold. But the last interview that I've sat in has now been quite some time because I was a principal for a long time in the same place. But I remember going into that interview and they probably had, I don't know, 15 questions. It was a long interview. And I remember I sat in this giant interview with a giant committee of parents and kids and teachers and counselors. And every question they had, I was able to tie it back to my themes. And it wasn't redundant. I'm not saying I gave the same answer. I'm just saying there was nothing they could throw at me that was gonna take me off of my center, off of my core. I just took every question and and and then again, you got to use stories. You gotta use stories from your experience.

SPEAKER_02 5:45

So I think it's so important to have stories.

SPEAKER_01 5:48

Yeah, leaders, I think we, Courtney and I have experienced so many interviews, and it is not only knowing your core, but being able to tell the story, the story of your experience and how it relates to this particular question via your core value.

SPEAKER_02 6:03

And I if you are currently, let's say you're an AP hoping to go after a principalship or a you know, principalship moving up or whatever, and you're like, I don't even know where to start. I don't even know where to start thinking about this. Let me give you a little list of some things that you can just, you know, maybe reflect on, write down your notes about what you feel like is important about these things. So listen to these themes and tell me if you think there's anything missing. Talking about vision, people, culture, instruction, systems, trust, clarity, and results. And so if there are any of those words that kind of trigger uh, oh yeah, that is that is really important to me. Clarity is and transparency is really important to me, then sit, jot some notes down about what you believe to be true about that thing and write a few examples of how you're currently doing that, and in that next role, what that would look like as that next level up. Like take some time and really reflect on that. If you're having some struggles of where to start, what a great list.

SPEAKER_01 7:15

There's a little list. Sometimes as leaders, the job is moving so fast we don't stop and ask ourselves, what do I believe? You know, you can just kind of lose the force for the trees. Every day can just be, you know, a shooting gallery or going all over the place. And so taking the time to sit back. And we have given this advice just for being an effective leader outside of interviewing for another job. I hope you know what your core values are as a leader because you need them every day. Yeah, but for sure, as you're preparing, yeah, sit back and say, What do I believe? You and I do a lot of reading. And in 2024, the Harvard Business Review put out a great article. The title is A Guide to Standing Out During an Interview. Um, really, the quick takeaway from this particular article is that panels rarely remember the candidate with the fastest answers or the candidate that had the most detailed answers. It was really that panels really remember the ones that have the cleanest stories, the strongest themes, and the ones that sound the most like the position that's that can paint the picture the most of the position that they are trying to fill. So it's not even about really the words you're using or the answers to the questions. It's about can you can you help the panel see you in that role? Have you created your own themes? Can you can you use stories and can you help them see, based on your leadership themes, how you how you would function in that next role?

SPEAKER_02 8:39

Yeah, it seems like leaders don't lose the interview because they're necessarily unqualified. But instead, it's more about they're they're preparing like an applicant and not like that next leader.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

Oh man, that's a great, great clip right there. Now, Courtney, what if I just don't have any leadership experience? I'm a teacher who's aspiring to be an administrator, or I'm an assistant principal who's aspiring to be a principal. So I don't really have a ton of that experience. How can I get to test out what I think my values might be, my core values might be? What are some ways that I could get exposed to it?

SPEAKER_02 9:13

I always, and I know you did too, but I always had teachers that came to me and said, you know, I'm in a leader, some kind of leadership prep program. I'm getting my master's in education administration, whatever it was. Um how can I get involved and find opportunities to plug in and get some of this experience? And so then those people became some of my, honestly, they became some of my pipeline people. And I was like, oh, okay, you you want to get involved. Let's let's see how you do. Let's let's put you in on this instructional committee or on this, you know, student focused team on at clubs and activities or you know, whatever it was. Found I as a leader, I always tried to honor that and find opportunities for them to get more involved. But I never would know if somebody didn't come and ask me. So if I were a teacher now and wanting to get some more experience, go to your leader and ask them what you can get involved in.

SPEAKER_01 10:23

Yeah, I think this may sound a little bit harsh, but I'm kind of the harsh guy, right? Between the two of us. But it's so it may be a little bit harsh, but I think it's so true is like the the experience you're needing for the next job isn't gonna come find you. You gotta go get it. There's lots of people as I travel, they're like, How do I get the next job? How do I do like what you do? You're not gonna get it sitting there, that's for sure. You gotta go ask your principal, hey, can I get on a committee? If you're an assistant principal, ask your principal, can I get on a district committee? Who hires principals? District people do, right? So as an assistant principal, yes, you're doing a great job for your current principal, but once you want to be a principal, that current principal is not hiring you. So you got to get around other leaders. You to get some of these experiences to know what your core values might be, you got to volunteer some of your time. Get becoming a leader is it doesn't happen by accident, and it's not easy to do. You got to kind of go out and earn it and get some of these experiences. So teachers volunteering for campus-based committees, assistant principals volunteering for district based-based committees, principals getting around superintendents. That's why you and I went to grad school because we got to sit around all the superintendents in the state of Texas, and that's how you became an area superintendent, uh, a chief of operation. I bailed out of the public system before, but that's the path I would have been on as well. That doesn't come by accident. You and I got to know so many superintendents that it was like, yeah, we got four or five, six different districts where we could go work in the central office. Yeah. It doesn't come by accident, it comes by experiencing those things. And then via your experience, you blend what your current core values are with what you know you're gonna need in that role. And that's how you prepare for interviewing for the next job.

SPEAKER_02 12:05

Yeah, and let's let's dig on that in on that a little bit because I think it is so critical that you spend time, and it's it's tedious sometimes, but you got to spend time researching the roles that you are going after and the district that they are in or the organization that they are in, or whatever that is, you have to research them. And if nothing else, I mean, going on their website and the things that they put on the website are the things that they are saying is most important, even if they're not really following through on those things. But they're at least outwardly saying these are the things that we're telling people are most important to us. And so you can gain a lot of information by what is and is not out there for public consumption. For sure.

SPEAKER_01 12:54

And I think too, educators, we have broad networks. You know, give yourself a little bit of credit. Everyone of you listening has a network. You have a friend who has a friend, um, maybe that that is a teacher in that district you're applying for, or that there's a cousin of somebody who's a uh a secretary in the central office. Like we have bigger networks than we give ourselves credit for. So I know when I was applying in different districts, it's like, who do we know who knows somebody who I can just have a quick conversation with? Hey, here's what I see on the website. What else are you all working on? What else is the core at the core of this district? What are your big initiatives? What are, you know, so maybe that that maybe you can't find the person who's the hiring manager for that job. Maybe you can't get that close. But you can usually get pretty darn close to somebody who knows something about that particular environment, the culture, what their focuses are. And that way you can really, when we say do research, I know what we've been so classically trained in education and maybe over-trained on is the data. Look at the data, look at their test scores. Look at you want to know what the test scores don't tell me a whole lot, to be honest with you. They don't tell me a whole lot about that culture, they don't tell me a whole lot about the operating procedures, they don't tell me a whole lot about how people interact. Test scores are test scores, and listen, they are what they are, and I'm not a super big fan of how over-reliant we are on test scores. So, yeah, I can get online and I can look at their accountability reports. Sure. And I'm not saying you shouldn't. You should. But you got to get in and roll your sleeves up and kind of get to know the culture, get to know their initiatives, get to know their relationships a little bit, and then you can really get into that interview, I feel like, with some background knowledge to be able to speak to who they are. And I think this is what you're saying, because you hired principals, you've hired um, you hired leaders in your current role. I'm sure there's a big difference when you're at a leadership interview when somebody walks in who has researched you versus somebody who has not done their homework.

SPEAKER_02 14:40

Absolutely a hundred percent yes. If you walk in with no background knowledge of who we are and what we value, then it's it's kind of off-putting because so many people do now. So many people know that that's what you should be doing. And the tricky part is yes, you need to get in there and do the research, but you cannot speak to it in an inauthentic way. Don't you can't come in there and be fake about it. It has to feel authentic and like you know this information based off what you have researched, but don't act weird about it. Don't don't be overly bizarre and about, I am this way because I know your culture is this way, and I believe that because I know you believe that. Like, don't be all culty weird about it.

SPEAKER_01 15:31

Don't be weird, don't be weird about it. We just made it weird, dude. Yeah. Go ahead and get out of our interview. You made it weird. Um, yeah, and I think I would say having hired so many assistant principals over the years, you know, I I didn't get a chance to hire at the district level, but I did hire a bunch at the principal level. And so teachers coming up into that assistant principalship, you know, it's really it's it can be difficult because it's a window into a world they've never seen. So if you haven't done your homework on the position, if you haven't done your homework on then that school and that position, gosh, you're fighting up a really big hill. It's almost like you've lost the interview before you get started because you're gonna walk in with incomplete information. And maybe you have the talent, it might not be a talent issue. It's that you didn't get the background information so that you can match your talents to the job. And so, as much as preparation, and again, I've watched so many people prep by studying questions and looking at the accountability data. And I'm like, uh, yeah, yeah. Do you know who you are? What's your core value? What do you believe? And have you studied that job beyond the stupid test scores they post on their website? Because gosh, that's so surface level.

SPEAKER_02 16:35

Yeah. And it's, I mean, part of the interview process should also be you deciding if that's actually a fit for you. Amen. And is that somewhere that you know you can actually thrive and be successful in? Because what it what is it that Pete Galaviz would tell us? Dr. Galaviz.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

Yeah, Dr. Galaviz used to say, here's the worst thing that can happen to you when you apply for a leadership position. He would say, The worst thing is they give it to you. And he was all right. You better know going in, is this a job that I want? Do I fit with this culture to the best of my knowledge? You know, um, yeah, the worst thing that can happen to you when applying for a leadership position is they give it to you. Yep. And I think in the same vein, a lot of leaders are or a lot of people are afraid to try for jobs because uh, maybe I'm not qualified, maybe, but you know what? If you don't take a swing, you don't hit the ball. I mean, it's the old uh Michael Scott Wayne Gretzky quote. You miss 100% of the shots you don't take with Michael Scott. Michael Scott quoting Wayne Gretzky. And there's truth to that here, right? So at the same time, don't be afraid to take the shots. Take the shots, but make sure you know that organization in that position so that the shots you're taking are ones that you're willing to make. Because if you make it, it's yours now.

SPEAKER_02 17:48

Yeah. So I have I have a list of questions that I think you can ask yourself as you're looking at the research and going beyond just whatever data you can find on their education agency website. But you're looking at what does this organization say that it values? You're looking at what evidence shows that those values are actually put into action. Um, you're looking at where do my themes as somebody interviewing for this position genuinely, and I mean genuinely, align with their priorities. What questions can I ask that proves I did the homework? And what am I hearing that tells me whether or not this is a fit for me? And have examples of those things, have, you know, uh, but those are some good starting points to really look at when you're doing the research.

SPEAKER_01 18:40

Yeah. Being a leader means you're marrying the culture. If we want to use the analogy of like a relationship lock, you are relationship locking yourself to this culture. So I would want to know who I was marrying a little bit before I just marry somebody. Because once you're married, you're locked into that relationship. So remember, leaders, that preparing for an interview is more than just knowing the right things to say in the interview. It's also to protect yourself and make sure that you want to get into a relationship lock with this particular culture.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

Courtney, if I were to interview you today, would I hear the leader you are now or the leader you are ready to become in the future?

SPEAKER_02 19:20

Oh no, you are gonna hear how I am the leader of the future. You're gonna hear all the things that I'm already doing that are a part of this role. And I'll continue to grow and I will be coachable, and I'm super excited to move the work forward because we're not gonna be stagnant, but you better sound like the job that you are trying to get and not like the job you currently have. Yeah. And I think we see this a lot, unfortunately. I have seen it a lot with assistant principals applying for principalships. Yeah. And I I every time I sat in those interviews, I wanted to be like, oh God, you need to step one level up. Like you're just you're sitting in your AP role, and I need you to sit in that principal chair. Even though you're not there, I need you to speak like you can be there. And they just missed it.

SPEAKER_01 20:14

They miss it sometimes. And yeah, I I, while I didn't get to hire a lot of principals, because I was the kind of principal that was on every committee at the district level, I got to sit in on many principal hiring committees as a colleague. So I was one of the voices in the room as we hired people around the district. And you're right, it's the trap. So many assistant principals sound more like an assistant principal in the interview than they do a principal. And that's how some of my assistant principal friends would call me after and be like, How did that person get a job over me? And it's like, well, it doesn't mean that the better assistant principal got the principalship. The assistant principal who was better prepared to be a principal became the principal. Sometimes if you're an assistant principal right now and teachers, that's going to be the same for you trying to become an assistant principal. It's a real easy trap to sound like the job you're in and not like the job you're trying to get. And so, you know, what are some things that that people can do, Court, to avoid sounding like the role they're in when they're trying to stretch and get the next role.

SPEAKER_02 21:17

Yeah. And and just to add, the same thing happens with principals trying to get a district level position. You could sound too much like a principal and you're not looking as broadly as you should concerning an entire district. And so I think whatever it is, you need to be able to take, like, first of all, take everything that you have done that has been good productive work, whether it's been collaborative with a team, on a team, leading a team, whatever it is, you take all of those elements of good work that you have been a part of and then translate it to how that would look or how that would make you successful in that next up level, whatever it is you're interviewing for. And I would Physically have a list of those things so that you're reviewing them and you're ready to speak to them. And it's not something you're trying to come trying to come up with off the top of your head when you're in the middle of the interview, but it's something that's part of your preparation, is having this list of work that you have been a part of accomplishing, either solo or with a team. And if it's collaborative, by God, you better own that it was collaborative because don't go in there and say you did something when a team did it.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

You'll get somebody in the district like, uh-uh, no way. I was part of that team and she did not have a whole lot to do with that. Yes, exactly. Don't own stuff you didn't really own. Don't own stuff you didn't own. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 22:34

Right. But you can talk about how that work prepares you for that next position. And you always have to think about what are the adjustments I need to make in my head that go more broad than my current role? What are those considerations I need to make if I'm going from AP to entire principal of a whole campus or principal to working at a district level departmental role that serves multiple campuses, maybe multiple levels, and I don't have experience at all three levels or with, you know, whatever it is, what are the experiences that you can kind of broaden and say they would help you be successful in those roles?

SPEAKER_01 23:17

Yeah. I I was good at at this part of it where you know what you're trying to do is narrate your experience. So you're using specific stories from your past, but now you're telling the story in this new hypothetical of the new job. You're at the step up of every level. You got to tell a story, a specific story, but then you have to like morph the stories. You led this work. Yes, here's an example. But now you have to turn it from here's what it was to here's the vision I have of what it will be. It's your cat, your vision casting forward. And so in your interview, you have to start with the nugget of your experience and then dreamcast it into that next role, which can only happen if you understand the next role at a deep enough level.

SPEAKER_02 23:57

Right, right. And I think another important piece of this is making sure that you have conversations with your supervisor about your desires and what your goals are and what your aspirations are. Um and I had a little bit of a not funny at the time because I was like, what is happening? But I had been an assistant principal for, I don't know, three, four years, whatever it was. Um, and decided, okay, I am ready to start going after principalships. My mom had always told me, you're such a middle school person, like you're a little crazy. So in my head, I was starting to go after middle schools in the district. And I would apply and I wouldn't get interviews, or I would get like the first interview and then not move past it. And so finally I sat down with my supervisor and I was like, can we have a conversation? Because I don't understand what is happening. And again, like you said, I'm like, I see the people that are getting past me and I don't wait a minute. No, I really don't get it.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

And so we're not gonna call any of those people out. No, we're not. No, no, no. But do you know who you are if you're listening?

SPEAKER_02 25:10

Stop the street.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

I'm kidding. No, I was talking about our buddy Matt Graff, who was a principal. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 25:16

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

Growing up, we were with Matt and we had a fun competition. So, Matt, if you ever hear that, I'm joking, bud. We love you.

SPEAKER_02 25:22

No, but I had this conversation with her. I can't get past this level. What is happening? And she's like, Why are you interviewing for middle school principalships? You are a high school person. You need to be a high school principal. And I was like, Well, I I thought I was gonna be a middle school principal. And she was like, No, why do you think that? Why in the world would you even think that? And so we had we had to have this like level-setting conversation. And so when she told me that, and I was like, You see me as a high school principal? Like, what? And I had a little bit of a shock to my system of Okay, all right. And so sure enough, like the next year, I think it was a year later, the high school opened up, applied for the principalship, and got it. And I was like, Okay, you really did think I was gonna be a high school principal.

SPEAKER_00 26:07

Yeah, yeah, you weren't you weren't born in school.

SPEAKER_02 26:09

And it was, it was the right fit for me. I absolutely am a high school principal person. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah. So, all that, what we've learned from this is I'm not as crazy as my mom thinks I am. How about that? Gigi, how about them apples?

SPEAKER_01 26:26

Not that Courtney and I use this as any form of therapy. So just because we know our parents, all four of them, listen. Doesn't mean you guys might not catch a few strays from us um getting some of our getting some of our childhood uh stuff worked out from the microphone.

SPEAKER_02 26:40

But it's funny because I also I had never talked to Becky before then about I want to go after a middle school.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

Like she had no understanding of why I would even And Court, that's where I want to go because you and I went through our doctoral programs in the same program and we both learned from similar professors. But one of our professors, Dr. Levattis, and I'm gonna pass his wisdom on to all of you, he told us this. As you move through your leadership journey, you must verbalize to your supervisors what your aspirations are. Because how can your supervisors put you in positions to meet your aspirations if they don't know what it is you aspire to? And so I learned that at a very young age in leadership from Dr. Olivadis was there's a way to talk to your bosses so that it doesn't sound like you're ladder climbing. Nobody's talking about ladder climbing or job hopping or hey, as soon as I get this job, I want your job. We're not talking about that. We're talking about verbalizing your innermost desires about what you aspire to do next.

SPEAKER_02 27:35

Although I did say that in an interview one time.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

You did, and you got the job because I was in the interview committee where you said that. Um, but yeah, it's it's it there's uh it's a very healthy and we would argue necessary part of your leadership journey is to communicate to your supervisors what you aspire to be beyond your current position. And that way they can put you in positions to meet your aspirations. And all listening, I want to warn you, sometimes those those um those things don't manifest inside the organization you're in. I'm a prime example of um I I was trying to become a principal and it just I had to take a job in a neighboring district because the experience I needed lied outside of that district. I just I wasn't gonna move up at that time in that one particular district. So my bosses knew what I was after. And they said, hey, maybe, maybe come over here. I'm gonna I'm gonna contact somebody in a neighboring district. That'd be a good fit for you. And it's hard because your ego is like, oh crap. I mean, they don't want me. Yeah, maybe not right now, maybe not for these jobs, maybe it's not the right time. Maybe you don't have the right experiences yet. So I was. I had to go and take a job in a neighboring district, and then the experience I got there, they wanted me back. And I came back and I had a long career in that other district too. So um, but you got to verbalize to your bosses what it is that you aspire to, because then your bosses can help you. And now, if you're a leader of leaders and people say to you, hey, I want this next job, then it's also your responsibility to build those bridges for the people underneath you. Put them on the right committees, introduce them to the right people, put them in the right programs, make sure they get um all of those things. You know, gosh, every other year or so, one of my former assistant principals had become principals and they're like, Hey, I'm starting to get the itch. What do I do next? You know what I do to every one of these people? I put them into the graduate program you and I were in. We get them hooked up and we say, okay, in this program, you're gonna get prepared to go do whatever it is you want to do after the principalship. So that's still my job to this day as a leader, is we're gonna continue to build bridges and put the people that are still in our leadership tree in positions to keep growing. But they verbalize to me. These are people that call me and say, Hey, Dr. Costa, I'm now on five years as a principal. I'm starting to get that feeling of okay, what's next? All right, you want to know what's next? We're gonna call the UTCSP program in UT Austin, and you're gonna go become uh learn how to be a district leader in one of what I would argue is the best preparation program for district leaders in the entire country. But you know, that's what we would say.

SPEAKER_02 29:58

I think technically it's top three.

SPEAKER_01 29:59

Yeah, well.

SPEAKER_02 30:00

If you look at U.S.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

News and World War War, technically it's number one in our hearts, number three in the books, number one in our hearts.

SPEAKER_02 30:09

Yeah, okay, let's let's move on and talk about. I want to talk about some real time, you're in the interview. What let's talk strategies. What are some things? Because I know you and I have both been in interviews with people and then had these debriefing conversations where we're like, whoa. No, don't do that. So what is some feedback that you have given before?

SPEAKER_01 30:37

Where we say, what the Just kidding, listeners, as you in case over the last episodes you've found out I figured out how to use my little soundboard. So Courtney just is like, come on, man.

SPEAKER_02 30:48

It's all over this pressing buttons.

SPEAKER_01 30:51

We have made a financial investment in this podcast. So I'm gonna use I'm gonna press all the buttons that are available for me to press. So whether you like them or not, I hope you'll keep listening through a few of my sound effects.

SPEAKER_02 31:04

No, I'm going to go. Oh no, you cannot touch the buttons.

SPEAKER_01 31:06

Everybody needs to know that I am the producer. Courtney cannot touch these buttons.

SPEAKER_02 31:10

Just the talent.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

If you're the talent, if you start to hear the microphones rustle, then she's wrestling to get over and touch the buttons. You know what's going on behind the scenes.

unknown 31:20

All right.

SPEAKER_02 31:20

Okay. All right.

SPEAKER_01 31:21

So we're gonna talk about some real strategies in the moment.

SPEAKER_02 31:25

What is some feedback you've given to people before that you're like, stop, don't do that.

SPEAKER_01 31:29

So one of the one of the mistakes I see made is it comes even before they step in the interview, is really like the preparation process. And I've watched people just pour over uh question after question after question or try and write notes and notes and notes and notes and notes. And listen, everybody processes different. So process how you need to process. But at some point, before you get into the interview, you better start practicing verbalizing the things that you want to say out loud. There's gotta, you've gotta start to practice it because once you get in there, and you and I believe this heavily in all aspects of leadership, if you don't go through and rep, if you don't have where you practice things in your job, then when it happens to you in real life, you end up making fast, rushed, and usually not great decisions. It's the same in an interview. I've got to rep the interview before interview day, which means yes, should I do some pre-writing and should I do some prep for my core values and things? Yes. Then turn on a camera and start practicing. And this used to be harder in the old days, but now I know what I would do. I would turn on Zoom and I would start press recording. Press record. Before that, I would have given Chat GPT or your favorite AI, Claude or a Gemini, whatever your favorite AI is. I would have written, I would have pulled and researched a whole bunch of questions that are uh like my job. Like, hey, AI, help me find questions that might be asked in this kind of job, feed it all that information, and then say, okay, give me four or five or eight questions. I'm gonna press go on Zoom and I'm gonna start to to practice talking at myself. I'm gonna, I'm gonna get in the interview, I'm gonna answer, I'm gonna fumble and be like, nope, let's not do it that way. I hated when I said that. Or, you know, um, there's nothing like recording yourself every week to figure out that you say the words right and absolutely absolutely right. There's a lot of words, Courtney and I repeat, that the um that our great producer has to cut out. Oh, who's our producer again? Oh, wait, that's me.

SPEAKER_02 33:14

That's you. That's your job. Whatever, I'm the talent. I don't know. I'm just here to leave you.

SPEAKER_01 33:20

I've said before, like Courtney's definitely the the visual uh representation in this in this partnership. But yeah, I one of the things I think I would coach somebody on is you gotta start to verbalize it. If you're not comfortable with Zoom and AI, but what I love about AI is I would do it on Zoom, then take the transcript from the Zoom, give it back to AI and have it critique me. Critique me. What did I do well? What did I not do well? So now with AI, if it were me preparing for an interview, I would get very engaged with that kind of practice ahead of time. Maybe you have a spouse who can do that for you too. Maybe they're not in the field, but you know, they can ask you the questions, you can talk at them, they can give you some feedback on where you felt rushed or where you felt unsure or where you felt. So I think I definitely think there's a performative piece to this before you go in, because we've said it's about helping show your committee why you're the best fit. So if you don't practice that show, if you don't practice that, then you don't want to do that for the first time in the pressure of the meeting of the actual interview. You want to have felt like I've I've gone through this a few times before. Um, and and that way my anxiety level is down, my preparation goes up.

SPEAKER_02 34:24

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 34:25

What about you? What do you think? What advice can you give people, whether prep or in the interview?

SPEAKER_02 34:29

Oh my gosh. In the interview, the the advice I give most often is slow yourself down. Slow down. You a rushed answer does not mean that just because you gave it fast means it's a strong answer at all. And so there are ways that you can intentionally slow yourself down. If they don't tell you that you're not allowed to bring anything in with you, bring a padfolio and write notes. There's no reason why you can't sit there and write a note about what the question is so that as you're answering it, and maybe it's just because it's my like ADHD brain that will go all chase all the chickens in the middle of my interview question, but it helps me so much to write down like a little summary of the question and maybe one or two points. And nobody cares that you're taking 30 seconds to process what they're saying. It shows me when people do that, and a lot of people do that. More people do that than I think other people realize. It shows me that they are really trying to think about what is the answer that best represents how they feel like they should be answering that question, whatever it is. And so write it down so you can go back to the question and make sure you fully answered it. And if you're comfortable, take write two little two-word bullets about what you want to make sure that you say. And there's no reason not to do that. And people so people are so scared to not answer quickly, but it actually is way more reassuring to see somebody think through their answer before they actually open their mouth. And so that's the first one is I would say find a way to slow yourself down in the interview process and actually think about it. Now, not everybody has that problem, but I see it a lot.

SPEAKER_01 36:24

But don't you think that that's a great connector? If I'm gonna try and make sure that I A, have a story that relates to my experience, and B, that I'm able to funnel all my responses through my core values. Don't you think like taking that to just do a quick gathering of my thoughts, whether that is processing on it on with your hand in writing or sitting in yourself and just processing that? Because if you just fire it off the cuff, the odds go down that you're gonna A, come up with a great example that tells a great story, and B, that you're gonna connect it back to one of your pillars of your core values that we've been talking about. So I do think I know when I'm in interviews, I prefer the people that are slower and take a breath and actually think. Because then I know I'm getting what they really want to say and not just them rushing through.

SPEAKER_02 37:08

I would also say that you should always pay attention to who is in the room interviewing you. When they introduce themselves, pay attention to their role. And if you can write that down really quickly, do that. Because if you are asked a question and there is a parent, a student, a teacher in the room, you need to make sure and answer in a way that addresses whatever their concerns might be about hiring somebody in that role. But also, you better not offend one of those three roles. Like, even if you're not thinking about it, if you say something jokingly, even if you're like, oh, I know that this school struggles with blah, it's not necessarily good to out that in front of a parent.

SPEAKER_01 37:50

For sure.

SPEAKER_02 37:51

Or, you know, whatever that is.

SPEAKER_01 37:53

I mean, uh, the curriculum director's sitting in there. And you're like, oh, I just I don't, you know, canned curriculum is really art for me. Like, yeah, you you should know who's sitting around the table, not just parent, student, uh, uh who's the staff in the room so that you can speak to them and make sure you can make those connections and relationships with everybody around the table.

SPEAKER_02 38:11

Yeah, and talk about how you will be a partner for them in that role, no matter what position they're in as a part of the interview. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 38:21

And it's it's not sucking up, it's making sure that you're addressing the vision of everybody sitting around the table. So, like uh, you know, maybe student services is represented in this interview. It's the director of student services, and you're getting asked questions about systems on your campus. Well, I'm gonna make sure that I say, hey, you know, the first thing I'm gonna do is I'm gonna make sure I partner with Mr. So-and-so at the end of the table. I'm gonna make sure I know that all the resources and expectations that exist in this district. And then here are the systems I know I would want to build, but I'd want to make sure they hook up to our systems in this district. It's not sucking up, it's using the table, using everyone around that table to plug in. So now you're talking about another layer court, because we said, hey, layer one, know your values. Layer two, tell a story that comes from your own experiences. Now, layer three, connect it to the people in the committee. Whoo, you got the job. And I do think um it's worth for everybody listening, if you're gonna use this strategy to take a beat and write or to pause before you answer, it's also not a bad idea to say that up front on the first question. Like, hey, the what I'd like to do with your permission is I'm not gonna rush to answer every question. So forgive my my little bit of a silence. I'm thinking and then I'm gonna come out and answer. And that way, people are sitting staring at you, like, what is this dude doing? Or what's why is she? Did she go to sleep? You're like in the labyrinth where you fell out. Yeah, you powered down your please put the token in the little box. So I don't think it's bad at all at the beginning of the interview to call it. If that's a strategy that you think you want to lean into.

SPEAKER_02 39:48

And I'll add one more thing that I think is really important that I didn't really understand had happened to me until I had some conversations with my current boss in this new company that I am working for. I mean, I've been there four years, it's not new now. But anyway, in my previous role, it had become clear to me that I did not have the same, how do I say this? I didn't have the same beliefs and values as the superintendent that I was working on that cabinet for, which that happens. And so it became a situation where I felt like I wanted to move into a different role, but I also it it's a difference of are you running toward an opportunity or are you running away from something? Wow, yeah. And I think in that moment I was running away from something. And when I interviewed for something that really should have been a lateral move and did not like I it was the same job almost, and I couldn't get past like the second or third round of interviews or whatever. And I very graciously, one of the assistant superintendents met with me and she talked about it was she was like, it was kind of weird, like you were robotic almost, which is not my personality. I'm not a robotic person, I'm kind of obnoxious with too much personality sometimes. And so never, you're never a box, not to you, and so it was weird. And I realized after this conversation with my current boss that it was because I was not passionate about this new role. It's that I was running away from something. So I think making sure that your personality is coming through instead of being like this robotic person, but also making sure you're moving for the right reasons.

SPEAKER_01 41:45

Very fair. And a great experience that I'm sure a lot of people relate to. Sometimes you want a new job because you want out of the old job. And it doesn't mean that's not a time to move. It just means you better have a purpose bigger than running away from something you're gonna do.

SPEAKER_02 41:57

Yeah, and I didn't I didn't process that very well at the time.

SPEAKER_01 42:00

Yeah, but that's growth. You live more, you learn more, and that's that's kind of how we pass things forward. So, yeah, let us close our episode. Courtney and I are going to offer you the Ed Leadership Pair Podcast Interview Framework. So here it is. There's an interview framework we've put together for you. And there are four parts to it. Number one is clarify what you believe. Number two is observe the organization, know what you're heading into. Number three is reframe your experiences into the new position. And then finally, is execute the interview with composure and with purpose. And so those four steps we would offer you as like tangible four action steps that any leader can take. That's a teacher leader becoming an assistant principal, that's an assistant principal wanting to be a principal, a principal wanting to be somebody in the central office. And dare we say, and this might be a little bit of a stretch because it's the one role we never played, but a district level person leading into a superintendency. So we're just gonna kind of hypothesize that that will that that would fit there. And one of these days we need to bring on a very um reputable superintendent, maybe a superintendent. We know some people give us that. We got connections. We do, we have some connections. Yeah, all that to say fast network.

SPEAKER_02 43:06

Yeah, the the leaders who interview best are not necessarily the ones that have the fastest answers, but they are the ones with the clearest identity where people know who you are when you walk out of that room and have a clear picture of whether or not you're a fit for that role.

SPEAKER_01 43:23

Another great episode full of bangers. Bangers. Every leader listening has just got some bangers to take away with them. So, hey, everybody, we appreciate you continuing to tune in with us. Um, don't forget, please, to follow us on our social media accounts on TikTok, Instagram, and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We continue to push out a lot of ready-made resources for leaders. These are articles, these are research studies, these are frameworks, these are sometimes templates we've been sending out. So please don't forget to subscribe to our newsletter at www.theedleadershippair.com. Well, another great episode in the books, my dear. We'll sign out. I'm Maddio.

SPEAKER_02 44:04

I'm Courtney. Thanks so much for listening.