From Flexner To Pharma: How Evidence Got Lost And Healing Got Small

What if the turning point in modern medicine wasn’t a breakthrough, but a breakup? We trace the long shadow of the Flexner Report. How industrial money centralized medical education, narrowed acceptable practice, and quietly turned healing into a colder, more profitable machine. From accreditation strings to research funding, we unpack why “evidence-based” so often means “evidence that got funded,” and how conflicts of interest distort what doctors learn, prescribe, and measure as success.

Across the hour, we map the widening gap between care delivered and health achieved. Chronic disease rises while institutions tout more procedures and bigger budgets. We contrast symptom suppression with health creation and revisit history’s unglamorous heroes—sanitation, clean water, light, and nourishment. Terrain matters: circadian rhythm, structured water, and the microbiome form a living context you can’t reduce to a single molecule. We explore how gut ecology and emotion speak to each other, why seasons bring detox patterns, and how reductionism misses the larger harmonics that actually move people from illness to vitality.

This isn’t an anti-science rant; it’s a call to restore its soul. Keep the brilliance of trauma care and diagnostics, but widen the frame to include whole-person practice, ethical evidence, and incentives that reward fewer patients getting sick. We share stories from clinics and classrooms where compassion meets rigor, and we outline a path forward: integrate terrain-first care, fund open comparative trials, and train clinicians as healers who can hold complexity with clarity.

If you’re ready to question the defaults and imagine a humane, integrated, and truly effective healthcare, press play. Then share this with a friend, tune in next week for the next deep dive, and leave a review with the one dogma you think medicine most needs to rethink.

Transcript

Tempo: 60.0

SPEAKER_01 1:22

Well, welcome back again to episode four of Doctors and No More, and that's NO if this is the first time you're hearing us. And you know, following on, we had a wonderful conversation last time, Gareth, um, or uh aka Dr. Gareth Thomas, uh, my great friend. Um, we had a wonderful conversation of what I call the hypocritic oath last time instead of the Hippocratic Oath, because back in the early 60s, the Hippocratic Oath was changed by lawyers, or what I call liars, and it changed the uh direction of how quote-unquote medicine um practiced, and it certainly introduced the chemist uh into the equation and also the ability to take life, whereas before the Hippocratic Oath was to preserve life at all at all cost. Um, and that leads us on today, and this is just the beginning, I think, of a conversation, because it it could be a weekend of talking on this subject, of where perhaps medicine and what I prefer to call true medicine, what others call holistic, and what I absolutely hate, alternative medicine. The reason I hate alternative medicine as a label is because, you know, those kind of medicines have been around for a lot longer than modern medicine. But nonetheless, there was a point in time, uh, of just over a hundred years ago now, where an event occurred that, you know, I think the word you used before we came on divorced um medicine from a deeper soul connection, which we're going to discuss today. But essentially, um, what I'm referring to, and and many of our listeners may have heard of the Flexner Report, but the Flexner Report was actually funded by the Carnegie Foundation, which is really Rockefeller. And Rockefeller was an oil baron um and was under quite a lot of pressure at the time because he was running a monopoly and a very aggressive businessman he was, and been accused of many other things as well. But he um saw an opportunity, what they call medicine, I certainly don't, to um use um his oil-based products to create medicine. And he funded through the Carnegie Foundation and uh Mr. Flexner, I forget his first name, to basically go out and have a look at all the practices in America at the time, which were predominantly osteopathy, chiropractics, homeopathy, herbalism, uh, naturopathy, and the what they were called allopaths, then, really, the allopathic doctors or chemists, or where a lot of their medicine came from, was from chemistry. And shock, horror, surprise, you know, he basically, Flexner came back with that um there was an enormous amount of holes and problems in the system. And he proposed a quote on quote, and this is one of the things we're going to talk about, an evidence-based uh medical system, which completely favored the alipaths. And essentially, what was set up was if um you wanted to have a university or college teaching, you now have to follow certain rules and regulations and guidelines, which most of them could never aspire to without an enormous amount of money. And guess where the money was coming from? If you did want to aspire to that, it was coming from the Rockefeller and Tarnegy um uh foundations. And the the deal was if you were to take that money in advance and essentially survive, um, you had to have someone sitting on your board. And as far as we can tell historically, that's how um the current chiropractics, osteopathy, homeopathy, naturopathic, naturopathic, so forth, uh either were destroyed or bit by bit watered down and put in a very, very small box until it became alternative medicine. And uh so-called modern medicine was the funnel was turned on for funding. Um, the legal legal system adopted it as the primary care and only care to go to. And so, you know, fast forward, the world has modern medicine as its you know, foundation of so-called healthcare. And yet, the evidence, if you look at the last 50 plus years in any society, we haven't got healthier, we've got sicker, much, much sicker. And so something very wrong occurred. And I want to discuss that with you, Gav. Is that a fair fair um description, or albeit brief, of what you see the Flexner report did?

SPEAKER_00 6:15

Yeah, I mean, I I think I'd add that the the idea from their point of view was to um centralize um medical education so that it wasn't spread throughout lots and lots of different states of the US, but it was more manageable in in just a few states, so that's how you get really prestigious medical schools cropping up. Um and I think also from what I've read from it, um the idea was is to to create um more revenue for for universities or colleges then, um, and to create a better um pay system for for tutors. Um and I mean if you if you have any um sense of the difference between um you know conventional medicine and the more sort of uh truer older medicine. If you if you look at any anything, uh you see that you know if you go if you find a good teacher for something like homeopathy, you're not gonna have hundreds and hundreds of people drawn to that. You can have very, very, you know, specialized people who um maybe have the spiritual sort of sense, a more empathetic and you know, empath empathy in in their approach to caring for someone. So um that's one aspect of it I see that it it basically centralized and and made more popular the the colder form of medicine rather than the the the more uh compassionate spiritual form of medicine and caring. So there's for me there's there's like this this diversion where possibly there could have been a more healthy, integrated approach to everything, you know, which would benefit everyone, but uh rather than that that approach, it was like, well, we're gonna divorce ourselves, stop you, you know, practicing as a doctor, and um we're gonna capitalize. I mean, it's quite interesting to to think about Rockefeller because he did the same with the oil industry, he capitalized on the oil industry. Um to such an extent where you know um his competition, independent oil, you know, oil uh companies, he stopped them shipping their oil from one place to another by by controlling the the railway. So, you know, his intent was I think um not so much on what's the best for for people's health, it was like, how can I capitalize on this thing that's a moneymaker for me? That's where I get a sense from.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

And I mean, he must certainly created a massive successful business model. Yeah, well, I mean essentially, yeah, sorry to introduce you, but which is essentially this is why you can look at it differently, even if this is new to you. And um, you know, medicine is well, the pharmaceutical industry. I I I'd just say drop the P and call it what it is, with a few exceptions, the pharmaceutical industry is the biggest business on the planet by far. I believe, at least last time I checked some, you know, the actual data about five years ago, the top four, I think it was, pharmaceutical companies, um, profits was greater than the rest of the Fortune 500 put together. It's just huge. And so you have to logically go, well, you know, what kind of customers do the pharmaceutical industry have? And you have to say sick ones. And therefore, if you then look at it as a business model, it's easier to start to at least question that perhaps from that moment, that inception, and certainly to today, with some exceptions, of course, it is being profit-driven rather than medicine driven. And for me, you have to define medicine in the first place, which we'll get on to later.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

Yeah, I I mean if you look if you look at um any business model like that, the the that industry, the share it has lots of shareholders and it has to keep its shareholders happy. And that insatiable uh sort of need for shareholders to be um profiting means that money has to come from somewhere. And I mean, if you can create um more disease, then it's a profitable industry. It's a no-brainer, isn't it? Totally. It's like a it's like a win-win situation. Um I mean I I I could I could sort of um liken it to what I experienced in the I think it was in the 2000s, when uh there's a resurgence in you know uh non-conventional health, the more truer older uh branches of of healing like homeopathy, uh healing, massage, um osteopathy. There was a big resurgence of it. And it was it was quite interesting. There's there's uh uh uh there was a government body that uh was uh changed its name to Professional Standards Authority, and that was the body that regulated the standards of uh medicine, dentistry, and I think it started to um uh also regulate uh maybe osteopathy or chiropractic, maybe I'm not sure. But it it decided that um and I don't know where this incentive came from. Um you know, you tend to be more of the the darker side of thinking when you see the the the history of the way things have gone. And I remember going to meetings, and all the the truer medicine um schools, which were practicing to you know very high standards, were at meetings with the professional standards authority to to become more recognized rather than being voluntary regulated to be more centrally regulated, and then they get the um the benefits of being recognized for something. And I I I mean I was representing uh uh an umbrella body which I would consider you know teaches incredibly high standards in subtle energy medicine. Um and we, you know, we've usually got between two or three schools, and the members list of it usually fluctuates between 70 to 80 practitioners, the most, right? So I'm sitting there, I said, Well, how much is this gonna cost us? Oh well, the the registration fee for this just to look at it is 12,000.

SPEAKER_02 13:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:46

So then you're like, okay, well, I said, Well, um the industry that I represent is so small, but it's highly effective in the way it works. So, what what are you trying to tell me? Well, if you haven't got the money, you can't be involved.

SPEAKER_01 14:03

That's uh Harry Hawes, my my first mentor, the great Harry Hawes, and an osteopath from Hartlepool. So, if anyone's listening and knew Harry, you'll know what a wonderful man he was pre-internet. You know, he was my first mentor. And um, when I moved from the uh British School of Osteopathy up north to join his course with crappy benches and everything secondhand uh in this, you know, Catholic. Oh, it was sure more. It's it's it's broken down now and it's it's been um uh neglected, but it was this Catholic priest school that he hired Rosenford anyway. So everything was crap except for Harry. His knowledge and his integrity and his as a teacher, just brilliant. But because he took me under his wing, you know, he took me to one side and he said, look, he said, these these registers where there were several osteopathic registers, and I was registered under, I can't remember what it was now, but it was the Northern Counties School of Osteopathy, so I can't remember what the register was. But I was a registered osteopath, and he was he said that the national register that they're pushing to have a one, you know, England, United Kingdom register, and he said, do not join it. He said, in you know, after all his years, he was 78 then, he said, people that that work for these associations are usually osteopaths or practitioners that are crap, right? And they're seeking power and they're seeking money, and he said all they're going to be doing is they'll sell it as you know, professional standards and protecting patients. They always sell it that way. But it's about putting you in a box, and then over time they make the box smaller and smaller. And certainly, um, Harry was right, and I've seen that. Uh, and I've yeah, I I tell you what I've seen, Gareth, which is the reality of what I'm talking about. I've met a lot of chiropractors and osteopaths and homeopaths and people in that, you know, that hated alternative medicine that I just don't accept that word. And without exception, I can't think of one right now. When I get talking to them, one of the questions they ask me is, aren't you frightened? And I think it's so interesting at the energetic state that they talk to me at that level because how I talk and what I do. And um, the the fact is the energy that has been imprinted into those boxes that they must stand in or be put in if they're going to be called a homeopath or an osteopat, in fact, you'll be the same as a dentist, no doubt. Is you know what you can and can't do, even if what you can't do or can't say is right.

SPEAKER_00 16:43

Yeah. I mean, I I if I look at it from a uh see, I I'm in a position where I can compare these two things because if I look at my dental training and I compare it to my healer training, um the dental training was was was difficult intellectually, you know, lots of information, lots of retention of I ideas of uh methods and techniques, and and but if I if I compare it to my healer training, which was um more in relation to who you are as a person and what do you actually uh consider disease to be, and are you carrying disease patterns that lead lead to physical disease? That was far more difficult from a human point of view. Far more difficult. Um and and it's quite an interesting this could possibly lead into quite an interesting subject, which which relates to um, you know, it's you can teach somebody to be to be a uh healthcare practitioner, a conventional one, but it doesn't necessarily mean that as a person they're decent.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

Well I think that's been the experience after 30 years of helping people, it's not been a positive one.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

Yeah, it's it's the same in everything. You can teach somebody to to regurgitate and follow a pattern of of understanding something, but if they have no personal development or no actual spiritual development, I don't and I'm not uh saying that's a religious thing, but I'd include it, right? If you don't have some form of compassion for your your human being, then you you you can't really teach that. And I think that's where I I would consider that my standards when I I teach people um subtle energy medicine or healing, energy healing. I I I ask that you know universally that I only receive the students that really need it, right? Yep. And then when they want to do it, I interview them to see if they're the right type of person, whether they like me, whether there's a resonance there, a vibrational resonance, and then the uh the natural stream of information is passed on. And then if they reach a certain standard intellectually, theoretically, uh practically, and spiritually, they get through. And that's that's the the standard, that's how you regulate it. But the problem is when you when you dilute um knowledge, and I'm sure you've seen in this in osteopathy that knowledge gets diluted, it becomes turned it's reductionist, and it's limited purely to uh factual scientific ideas rather than intuitive medicine, it loses something.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

It loses it loses some foundational, fundamental things. I mean, the the the founding fathers of medicine never um divorced the soul or the spirit from the flesh and the human being. The Chinese, you know, arguably one of the oldest documented philosophers of medicine, absolutely are looking at the flow of energies and the movement of subtleties and restoring that. Um, but I I I want to segue into this, uh you know, into where we've got from that and where we're talking, because if we jump forward to more modern times, and you talk about reduction, because I want to go into reductionism and how that has been um in many ways catastrophic um for healing people, you know, in in some ways it's amazing what they've been able to see, but it's for me, it's lost the understanding even further. So I want to bring up Richard Horton. Now, people may not know who Richard Horton is, but Richard Horton was the editor-in-chief of The Lancet, and a few years ago he made the statement that um now the Lancet, by the way, for listeners who don't know what it is, is probably one of the most prestigious medical journals, you know, um out there, and certainly for many years. But so he was the if not the yeah, it's I would say it probably isn't the the journal, but that's probably gonna annoy somebody. But anyway, he stated that much of the scientific literature, and perhaps half, may simply be untrue. And he attributed this uh to such small samples in the studies, uh, invalid exploratory analysis, and and very importantly, which is for me one of the major problems, conflicts of interest. And what he means by that is who's paying for the study. Now, Gareth just you know uh Spoke about that uh it's twelve thousand dollars to join the the the club, you know, and but but to do studies it is very, very expensive, and the money generally comes from the the pharmaceutical industry, the governments who are in bed really with the pharmaceutical industry or some other interest, and most of the really good studies don't get done. So, what's really important here, and I'm Clive, by the way, I should add, Clive DeCahl told me, I work with Clive, the wonderful Clive DeCarl, I worked with him for broadcasting some years ago. And he told me, and I I'm sure he's right because he he tends to not say things that are inaccurate, um, that in Harvard, the first lecture in medical school is half of what we're about to teach you is wrong, but we just don't know which half that is, you know, which I thought was it was you know, with with Richard Horton's comment is very interesting. But the point I'm getting to, especially after the last five years, and what we've been as a uh as a people around the world subject to, which essentially was trust the science, which in and of itself is an oxymoron, meaning you're never supposed to trust the science, you're meant to challenge the science, and that's the whole point of true science. I'm suggesting, so is Richard Horton, not not the way I'm gonna say it, but we've got a little BS, which I call bad science. And the S is a dollar sign. And so I want to I want to look at that with you when when you know in evidence-based medicine, which is what is thrown as the um gold standard of how we practice and professional standards and what have you, I would strongly suggest that it's way more than 50% of BS, and that the conclusions they come to are very, very flawed and not evidence-based at all. And in fact, if you were to do a helicopter uh view of the state of the health since modern medicine and the Flexner report, you would have to come back and say that the evidence is there is more sick people than ever before. There is more cancer, there is more diabetes, there's more so-called autoimmunes. Uh, not that I believe autoimmunes exist because the body doesn't attack itself, it attacks poisons and other foreign ailments. However, what there is is a great deal of symptom management. And symptom management means usually toxic drugs and treatments that push the person into a different disease feature. So would you agree with that before I go any any further?

SPEAKER_00 24:50

Yeah, um I mean I I think that um what's happened with with science is that it costs money to do a study, right? And um if if you as a pharmaceutical uh industry or any other uh driver of science um are profiting from a certain um direction that science is moving in, it's unlikely you're gonna uh fund a study that stops that. Right. That's not that's just not a sensible business model, is it? Yeah. And the scientists know it.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

There's some wonderful there's a wonderful documentary called Bore, which which shows that as well. But if you want funding and to be a scientist, you've got to play the game.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

Yeah. And I think that I I I think it's so heavily uh financed now, uh medicine, uh, you know, medical schools, um that yeah. People are uh are really sort of they've got their hands tied, haven't they? They totally have, yeah. And it it's like the it's it's becomes it's become see over the last few years we've seen that come to light. This issue has come to light massively to see the the conflicts of interest, how science is actually a lot of it is is driven in in a uh a gain profit direction. Yeah, um, but that process has taken years to get to a chronic situation, and it's slowly but surely this it's become more influenced by um profit and not influenced by actually, is this good for you or is this not good for you? Does this work or doesn't it? You know, for me it just makes sense that if you have an idea about something and you're you're working with a person and you see something that that is either outside of your your normal thoughts or your normal ideas about how things should go, the inquisitive mind of a a health practitioner should be like, Why is that? Yeah, what why are they getting better outside of what I've prescribed for them? Or why why is it that they're getting better? Why is it that they're getting worse? Why doesn't this work? But the problem is that it's becomes it's almost like it's creating a monster, right? Yeah that is out of control and it's just eating up, eating up all this this sort of finance. And medicine is not curing diseases. If we were curing diseases, we could say, right, our list of disease patterns or actual diseases is getting less. Exactly. It's growing, it's it's just growing every year. And with a disease, you you need a treatment, right?

SPEAKER_01 27:59

Well, I'd say this, you know, I is exactly, and and this is what we're hopefully presenting as the beginning of a conversation. That the Flexner report created a monster of a business model and not a beautiful pattern of philosophy of healing. It it actually killed or tried to kill because there's a resurgence, we can talk about. And what Gareth is saying is is completely right if you think about it. Because every year, in whether it be the Senate or the House or the Houses of Parliament or whatever it is, people are standing up saying how many more people they've treated this year, and they got us, you know, an evasion of approvals, whereas they should be standing up and saying how fewer people they've treated today. When you start to look at that, and and you know, the Norwells, Graham Norberry, who I work, the Nordster who I work with, you know, who studied Jack Cruz's work and came from the banking sector until he woke up and saw, you know, it's a rigged game. You know, everything's been a rigged game when you look at it properly. You know, he said, you know, the way it's structured, this is how you can see it's a business model and got nothing to do with health. That's not to say there aren't good people in medicine trying to do good work, believing they're doing good work, and some of them probably are, particularly in trauma care. But, you know, Lord's told me, you know, uh, and and it's true, that, you know, um, you would think if a hospital um uh did less MRI scans in a year because it had such a good result of keeping the populace healthy, they'd be rewarded. No. If they let's say for argument's sake, they have to do 100 MRI scans a week, right? It's a bit like the police giving, you know, and everyone knows that road tickets, it's just a revenue, revenue collecting scheme. But if they don't reach 100 scans a week, I'm just picking that number out of the air, right? They their budget next year is reduced. So, you know, you see this very much in America, although it's a different, you know, it's run by insurance. They send you for all these different scans for two reasons money collection and to not be sued. So when you when you look at these things, and we're gonna talk about, we're gonna give some examples of BS, bad science, and how the populace around the world, with the aid of governments and quote unquote education and institutions and the tele, what I call the television, have put across that this is evidence-based medicine. Pay attention and worship it, because it has turned into religion. And for God's sake, don't listen to anybody else is presenting a different view. So, what I want to um bring into this point of the conversation is something like smallpox, which which you know is linked with vaccinations and what have you. This is historically, and I want to bring it up to modern day. You know, if if you speak to most people who have any kind of knowledge about smallpox and the history of vaccinations and these kind of terrible diseases, they're likely to tell you that it was eradicated by a vaccination, a smallpox vaccination program, even though at that time there was only 10% of the population uh allegedly vaccinated with this very um questionable smallpox vaccine. The reality, we have to go to Leicester. And in Leicester, they uh recognized that raw sewage and uh which was floating through the streets, same as in London, it's back in 1800, 1850, I think it was, was the primary cause of making people sick, and it was getting into the rivers, which is their primary source of water at those days. And by the way, and this will interest you, Gareth, because we've had a few pints in our favorite pub in London. Uh, this is actually where beer really came from, because the the water was not good. So they actually uh fermented the water, you know, and made a very weak beer. Beer was only about one and a half percent, two percent, and and in a terrible. But they were drinking that instead of water so that they didn't get sick. But anywho, I I digress, but it's an interesting digression. The Leicester introduced had lots of smallpox, they introduced sewers, which of course took some years, and smallpox went away completely. And so Leicester is held up as the example that it wasn't viral or you know, bacterial in that element, other than, of course, well, the bacterials involved, but it certainly wasn't viral in vaccinations, it was filth, you know, getting into the water and what have you, and they eradicated, and that was sanitation. And and London absolutely pushed back over this for many, many times until there was one great uh summer, a very hot uh heat wave, and I think they called it the Great Stink, if I remember correctly, it was absolutely awful. The River Thames was was awful, and that's when they buckled and introduced sanitation. And by the way, and I'm digressing again, if you look at the diseases coming back now, the disease, and we of course we talk about patterns as well, but if you see them coming back now, the overpopulation of places I know for a fact in London there are 14 to 15, we call them people, of course there are people, but 14 to 15 people living in a two-bedroom house with one bathroom. And that's a regular occurrence now with so-called migration, immigration, and uh and uh and illegals coming in. It's absolutely horrific. So we're seeing some of these problems coming back into the system, which is modern-day stresses on sanitation. Well, what do you say to that?

SPEAKER_00 33:54

Yeah, I mean, I think it's quite an interesting story, the Jonathan, isn't it? Um, I mean, what I what I tend to look at it, I I I think that if you think about when that happened, the uh the process of isolation of anything must have been completely crude. Yeah. So to actually say that one thing is you know the causation of something and then this is the cure, you don't know what made people better, even if it was uh an effective uh way of treating someone. If you compare it to like today's sort of scientific sort of ability to isolate something, which is another story, you know, it's like all this this sort of um build-up of a story comes from all that. So the the idea of right, this this is what we did, we had this. Um, for some reason, you know, the milkmaids were getting better. So okay, well, why was that? Oh well, we decided it must be because uh of the cowpox and the it could be anything else, it could be other things, yes, but it's just because a person has decided to think that way, then they've created something that works, then fine, okay. Let's say it was uh uh working, then somebody came along and said, Hang on a sec, say I was around then. I go, how do you know that actually works? Because how did you isolate it? How did you do this? How did how do you know it wasn't this? So that would have been the normal scientific process, but for some reason the vaccines have have this totally isolated place where they've grown out of this first instance into something that almost can't be questionable. You can't even question it. Yeah, and that that should be red flags to anybody again. Trust the science, is it? Well, it's not science. Not science. It's not science because science is right. If you really care about achieving the best for someone, let's question why this is doing this or doing that. That's that and that's why science was originally connected to a spiritual or higher, you know, drive or higher, you know, sort of ideal. So that you're you're trying to promote the evolution or the betterment of humanity of your fellow human being. But it's it's it's you know, if you look at what's happened in the last sort of four or five years that's come to light, you know, that's been happening for a long period of time where people are getting damaged, injured, uh dying. And that's not pro-human.

SPEAKER_01 36:55

No, it's it's which which is again, you know, the core of our podcast is harmonics and pattern and energy and and and spirit, in which way we're going. And I believe we're going in a really great way. I believe there's a great awakening, and I think medicine, because the energetic intentions behind it were not honorable, they were they were about gain at the cost of huge suffering. I I believe we're going through um a health renaissance, let alone everything else. But you talked about you know good science and testing. You know, we have to bring bringing, you know, Professor Coch. I think it was Professor anyway, but but and and yes, it is Coch, but it's Coch's postulates, yeah, you know, which were which was essentially um, you know, at the bacterial level initially, that you were meant to have a sick person take some sputum or parcel, some some fluid from a sick person, um, and then isolate a bacteria and then put that back in as it will measure it, define it, and say, look, this is this is this thing over here, and give it a name, and then put it into a healthy person, and they would then get exactly the same symptoms, and then you were supposed to repeat that, and that was Cox postulates, and if it did it, you you've proven the core causation. Um, I don't really want to go into Cox postulates right now and you know, uh Jeremy, I'd I'd add to this.

SPEAKER_00 38:27

Uh what people don't take into account a lot is what what is the unconscious um drive of somebody studying something? Do they want it to fail or do they want it to be successful? And is the unconscious drive because if it's successful, they make money from it or they get a better name. You see, this is the thing, it's that people think that um science is devoid of unconscious projection, and it's not yeah. If people want it to go a certain way, I actually think that you know everything is energy, our thought creates a reality. So if you have an unconscious desire for something to fail or work, you will influence the study.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

There's a quantum physics famous experiment, and I can't remember the details, but essentially it was things changed, uh, the shouldn't change, depending on how you looked at it or the energy you put. And I I'm doing a bad service to this experiment, but it was very, very interesting. But I wanted to jump forward from Cox's postulates. You know, again, we're trying to tie in everything of BS and the again, we're talking about energy and patterns, you and I, right? The the pattern that was attempted to be established in the last five years, let alone the pattern that had been established, which was medicine and science is you know, king and the new religion, and everything else is like quackery and you know um cringe. The pattern that was tried to be established was A, don't question the science, B, do as you're told, based on the science is giving us the evidence that you must behave now in the way that we, i.e., the isolations and the mask wearing and what have you. So this is the um pinnacle of the Flexner report where we got to of you cannot think or question. I just want to look at that briefly because um Dr. Stefan Lanker, who's a virologist, excuse me, um one of the someone I respect greatly, and of course, any cynics will listening will go, of course he does, is there's another crazy, you know, uh what they they label him on Wikipedia anti-daxer. No, Stefan Lanker, like me and others, is anti-bullshit. We're interested in getting to truth and changing our opinion if we were wrong on that. Anyway, Stefan Lanka um uh uh put up a hundred thousand euro prize back in 2011 if any virologist or scientist could produce papers that prove the measles virus existed. So he just picked one virus, right? And um, and I think it was 2012. Uh I think it was David Bardens, a German doctor, uh submitted six papers um to a court. And uh the court said, yeah, he's right. Uh Stefan Lanker popped up 100,000, he's proven um that viruses exist, right? And just bear with me on this, right? So um Stefan Lanker appealed that to a higher court. And when they looked at it, and I and I think I'm correct on this because it's Stefan Lanker's one of his main premises, they the in the papers they'd either use the PCR, which is not a test, and and we'll go into the PCR another day, but it was it was the foundation of why I call it a scandemic with COVID 19 because it was all fake data. And as as um uh uh Carrie Mullis, Carrie Mullins, Carrie Mellens, you know, the Nobel Prize-winning uh inventor of the PCR said, it isn't a test, and you can prove anything you want, including falsehoods, after you scale it up over 30, and they were doing 35, 45 scales. But anyway, um it was overturned in the higher court and all the way up to the federal court in Germany, that those papers were not accurate. They were not good studies that had not isolated a virus in the true sense, and so it was literally science fiction. And I bring that up now, right, as an example of the pinnacle the Flexner report on evidence-based medicine. Because to this day, Stefan has taken it further, as has Tom Cohen, um, as has um uh Costman as I have, that there is no actual real scientific evidence of an actual isolated virus, and then they applied or attempted to apply Cox postulates, and there is absolutely no evidence that uh an alleged virus, which literally is only being isolated in a computer from fragments that the computer puts together and makes a viral, you know, no evidence at all. And when people present Stefan Langford and those that know better than I, these studies, again, it's shown how they showed the virus isolation in the first place. So, point being, you know, long conversation shortened, right? The most of the world behavior changed, and and as many will see, their health has drastically altered, and many of what's still alive since back to BS. Was put forward and recommendations of quote unquote treatment protection administered. And we see, as the evidence, a massive change. If you survived those injections, I think you've seen, I certainly know the people I talk to, there's been I would argue a spiritual deterioration in those that survived it. And this is interesting, and I'll hand back to you because Rudolph Steiner, who I admire greatly, and particularly uh his philosophies, said, and this must be nearly 100 years ago with Steiner, that eventually medicine will try and remove the soul from the human being. I think we're in a very interesting time post-CumVid of those that survived or appear to have survived these injections, they seem spiritually disconnected more than ever before. What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 44:56

Yeah, this has made me think about my uh, I mean, recently with the uh autumnal equinox, you know, I I would have had I would have had a cold or a flu. And if I was somebody who um wasn't aware of the the cyclical nature of of seasons and how that can affect uh physical health, I'd be like, oh my god, you know, I'll go and take some something for this. I need to repress the symptoms, I need to push them down. But I don't. I think I don't like it because it's uncomfortable. But I think, okay, at least my body's in tune, it's kicking something out. So I see it as my non-physical, subtle anatomy is connected to the cycles, the energetic cycles. And when that comes around, there's a shift. And a shift means some something of an evolutionary nature comes in. That means on a physical level I need to kick something out. So something has to detox. So rather than repress it, take a load, I I welcome it and work with it. Now I wonder whether these things that have been happening with humanity are more group things. You know, when people are that have mass disease patterns, it's more of a massive group uh consciousness change. Yes. And and rather than people working with it, it's repressed and pushed down. You and I know as well as you do, when you repress and you push disease patterns down, there's only one e one plus goals, it goes more in. Right. It starts to manifest on a deeper level. Um, so in terms of um causation with things like viruses and bacteria, you know, let's say they do exist, right? Why isn't anyone thinking, what's the what's the nature of that? What is the consciousness behind it? Is that appropriate to get that? Is that that um consciousness, if it's called a bacteria or virus, is that helping me to evolve somehow rather than saying it's a bad thing? That's another side of looking at it. I mean, I I remember when I first got into this work reading about Bichamp, and you know about him as well, and the fight between Pasteur, who was you know, stole everyone's work and Bichamp.

SPEAKER_01 47:31

I mean, I read this in my twenties, but Ethel Hume wrote the great book um Beauchamp versus Pasteur, all the other way around. Yeah, and it was Pasteur, it's about the Pasteur exposed with another name, two titles, and it it's fascinating because Beauchamp was clearly the superior, and it's obvious that that uh Pasteur was a plagiarist, which makes sense because back then becoming a scientist was like becoming a rock star or a Hollywood actor. You got into the royal court, you got money. It makes sense because you know, people uh or many people are seduced by these things, whereas Beauchamp was knowledge. Interestingly, um the the advancement of the pleomorphic theory that Beauchamp put, where the terrain is everything and uh the environment is everything, the or the terrain and the germ is nothing, pastel did the opposite, has been videoed and and captured with um bacteria morphing into different uh bacteria up to what would be considered pathogenic. And they're not really pathogenic. It's what happens when something dies, the bacteria change and start to consume and break down tissue to release you uh uh what's dead back into the soil. Now any farmer who's ever farmed animals would have experienced this. He would have found a dead sheep or a dead cow or something like that. And and maybe even you've seen dead animals, particularly when it's hot, don't decompose from the inside out, not the other way around. So, you know, you you've seen it with your own eyes. And just just jumping um uh uh uh forward on that, um you talk about seasonal detox. Well, if you look at the data, you know, the reason they call it the flu season is, you know, which is usually around March, April, and September, October, is they see this great fluctuation in flu, what they call flu, which we we know is a uh a detoxification in the body.

SPEAKER_00 49:33

By the way, which disappeared during COVID, didn't it?

SPEAKER_01 49:36

Yes. Which again is the evidence we present before you because first of all, one my jokes is is you know, when it's coming up to flu season, where is this damn virus? Which, by the way, viruses are non-living, right? So, so you know, it's an interesting term, non-living. It's not dead, it it's no live. Where are they? Are they are they in the Barbados and they went, you know what? Shit, it's it's the early September, we need to get our asses over to the UK, right? But certainly during COVID, um, you know, the flu just vanished completely, right? Which is interesting. And however, what I wanted to bring up for people like detox, autumnal, you know, most women that are listening would have lived in a house with other women, you know, or been away with other women and their periods sink. Now, every woman I spoke of, they start nodding their head.

SPEAKER_00 50:30

Well, they sort of they start having at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 50:32

Yeah, their cycles happen and they sink on the same day. And any man living there is usually like, oh my god. Yeah. But you know, at least traditionally, uh, I I help women, you know, not have those kind of problems. But nonetheless, they understand that living with women, you know, um uh their periods will sink. Okay and so they recognize there's something harmonic and possibly pheromonal as well, going on that is changing their bodies to sync with some timing. Now, if you look at um nature, you'll you'll everyone has seen flowers in fast-faring photography follow the sun. Okay, and then you look at a flower and think that's not a conscious being, but it literally follows the sun. You recognize um birds that that fly and migrate, you recognize trees pull the sap up into their branches, you know, because it's winter and then the the leaves pull. You recognize that bears um go and hibernate, and there's a signal for that, and their body physiologically shuts down or slows down and changes. Is it such a jump to recognize that there are um other signals coming from, I would say, the ether or or or or the planets and the stars, or at least their position and moon and light and so on. But nonetheless, is it so difficult to understand that there are a signal for the body to have a cleanse? Right? And we have to use those terms because if you're gonna just sort of define what is normal, you have to first define natural. And anything that's natural is normal. We as a people have not been living naturally, we have not been eating naturally, we not have not been behaving naturally, we have not been ingesting naturally. Okay, and so at some point the body goes, I've got to get this crap out. And most, you know, it's well recognized that the fatter you are, the more toxic you are. Okay, it doesn't mean lean people haven't got toxicity, but it's slightly different. But anyway, you know, so when it comes into these little pommel, now look at you, right? You're a wonderful man, you're a brilliant dentist, and you are you, and I know not saying this because it's our podcast, I've seen the work you do. It's one of the reasons I regard you so highly. But even you are not living, you know, a natural, you're you're trying to live the best life you can, right? But there's a few beers and there's a few nothing, you know, yeah, and plus you're in you're in a environment where you have to wear PPE. So you're your carbon dioxide and there's chemicals, and you get it, right? So it's quite normal that Gareth is having a big seasonal flu detox.

SPEAKER_00 53:19

It shouldn't be too hard for others to start to see these patterns. Yeah, that's the I mean that's the difference. I I I know when that happens what to do. And I think that's the difficulty. If you don't know that and you don't recognize it, then you can't you can't benefit from uh that knowledge.

SPEAKER_01 53:41

Yeah, just for the record, what he knows to do is bitch and whine to me on WhatsApp. Yeah, like every man where little boys in a man's boo like, oh god, this is crap. I'm reading well no, he's true. He knows it's a detox and not you've caught the seasonal virus.

SPEAKER_00 53:57

I've got to teach my sons about man flu, that's what it is. It is.

SPEAKER_01 54:01

Well, I all women know we suffer more than them when we get flu, right? But yeah. But you you do. And it's really important when when your mindset, which means philosophical way of looking at disease, when you go, okay, this is good. I I get a flu now about every two years, and it it it puts me in bed, and it's horrid, it's in my bones. But I know as I let it come out and do what I need to do to let it come out, when I come out of it, I literally feel renewed.

SPEAKER_00 54:37

Not just better renewed. Here's a here's a thought um in relation to you know in being infected by something. I had this thought the other day. I thought, right, if if people get infected by viruses, right, why does it just happen one virus at a time? If viruses are that uh you know opportunistic, why don't people have um you know mumps and measles together? Flu and covet and and measles together. Why does it why does it happen one at a time? Well, did you did you not see that's it that's an important question?

SPEAKER_01 55:19

It's it's a very important one. This is why I said this is just the beginning.

SPEAKER_00 55:23

If those organizations are so opportunistic, they wouldn't go, oh, you know what, Gareth's got flu at the moment, influenza. I'm not gonna jump in there because steal it'd be opportunistic, it'd just go, right? That's a that's a host. I'm gonna just jump in there and get the most out of it.

SPEAKER_01 55:45

Well, I mean, it's interesting you say the word organism because you know the basic science even taught school as they're non-living, which doesn't mean dead, it means they don't live, they've got no um nothing about them can can be described as living.

SPEAKER_00 56:00

But they have consciousness. Okay, well we'll have they have consciousness, and I and I think that people you know need to push, you know. We I don't want to go off the subject too much when we talk about microbiome and the gut bacteria. Yeah, I I think it's the closer your gut bacteria can be to your natural surrounding bacteria that exists naturally around you, which your ancestors would have done, yeah, the healthier you are. Because then then your consciousness of your gut is in tune with the consciousness of the your surroundings. So you're in your healthy.

SPEAKER_01 56:41

Absolutely. This is and this is how bonkers we've got to, right? Because we'll we'll do uh we'll do a podcast on the microbiome and you know, commonly known as the third brain, uh and the evidence that is is presenting itself, particularly around autism, which is one of interest to me, that they've isolated um that different bacteria uh groups or or not groups, but bacteria colonies create different behaviors in autism. And when you when you alter that, the behaviors change. And the bonkers that I was getting to is you know, if you think about it, it's bonkers. People are having fecal implants into their bottom, and those fecal implants are usually from African tribes or something like that, where their microbiome, where they're where they've been uninter uh uh where their natural way of living has been you know fairly intact, is like a Rolls Royce of microbiome. That's why I sell Bravo Probiotics, which is Dr. Galeo, who who found this African tribe that had this yoga that were healing all kinds of conditions left, right, and center. And the microbiome of this bacterial um uh composition of this yoga, which he's reproduced and called Bravo, is is second to none. And I've just seen it help so many. Whereas if you take the microbiome of a city PS5 Pro playing Xbox up all night, you know, it it's typical City kid, it's almost non-existent. And so, yes, it is connected. Yeah, it is connected.

SPEAKER_00 58:29

Well, I mean the gut, uh the gut is um without going too much into as they say we can do it another time, but the gut, you know, has uh has an intelligence of its own. It's like I I mean people say, Oh, you you know, the intelligence is in the brain, every single part of your body has consciousness. Yeah. And that that's the way medicine could go. You know? Well, I mean, that's that perhaps that's what the next podcast should be.

SPEAKER_01 59:00

Yeah, I think it should be because there is uh a great book. The title escapes me at the moment, but it's linked to what I just um referred to, that they've isolated bacterial colonies that affect behavior. But this book goes further, and it's saying the emotions, which you can call the patterns of energy coming in to people, are actually forming the bacterial colonies, and those bacterial colonies, i.e., it's it's a chicken and egg. It is a two-way street, it's a total two-way street, which is the chicken and which is the egg, and and maybe there isn't a definitive answer, but it's a very, very interesting thing. And you know, I I know you and I talked about it, but I won't expand on it next time.

SPEAKER_00 59:49

I'm gonna I'm gonna be devil's advocate here, and I'm gonna be reductionist in my approach. So then what would happen there in a reductionist mind would they they'd start to say, well, what is it within that? What chemical is causing that? And then reduce it down to one chemical and start using that against some effects, but it's not the whole picture. Of course, it's not the whole picture, and this is what reductionism does, you know, and that's why conventional medicine is struggling. It's struggling.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:24

Yeah, it will struggle because if you look at structured water, so so Gerald, Professor Gerald Pollock, you know, wrote the fourth phase of water. And if anybody knows more about water, I don't know. And in particular, he talks about when you talk about structured water, which is H2O, is the chemical, you know, um uh uh definition of water, you know, hydrogen to oxygen, right? But structured water is he's talking about the angles of the bond. Okay, and so although it looks like you know it's H2O, because the angle it's different, and it's different at a harmonic level. So if you take that chemistry reductionism, there's so much more involved. This is where Jack Cruz's work becomes very interesting as well. Um, you know, Dr. Jack Cruz, who's who's brought a lot of light literally, um, to these subjects. And and I I don't want, I I actually want to, we're coming up to the hour, you know, and I and I want to kind of close this off and um you know, as a beginning, but I hope what we've achieved and we'll you know organically move on to the next episode and continue this going is the Fletchner rapport, before then, of course, but the Fletchner rapport was a very significant divorce of a whole lot of other science and philosophical thought and the way they approach looking at things that to my mind devastated the health. And I could give so many more examples, and maybe we'll next time, but devastated the health, the true health of human beings. And when you look at it and you look at the studies and you look at the evidence that is presented that it cured polio and cured this, it can it quickly falls apart. And if you start to understand that it was suppressive and energetically interfering, it created new and different diseases all the way up. And I'm not gonna say them today, but if you look at how people are behaving today, I mean, I've been out yesterday, and there were two people dressed as dinosaurs walking around, and no one was batting an eyelid, and it wasn't Halloween, they were they thought they were dinosaurs. So, to that level of this.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:49

Do you know what they were saying, though? When when when the pastor said, Do you think he saw us?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:56

I was gonna tell that joke. Yeah, that joke is classic, it's best over a couple of pints, and that joke, just to clarify, is what do you call the one-eyed dark dinosaur? Do you think you saw us? Anyway, you know, we'll say they'd be human there. Next time, let us expand on that separation of thought because there was a time where it looked like medicine was really gonna grow, true medicine was gonna grow.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:25

You know, I think that we if if it'd grown organically and not be reductionist and been inclusive of everything, we'd be in a completely different place now.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:36

Totally different place. We certainly wouldn't have dinosaurs walking around in Alberta, but anyway, um, you know, we would be in a very different place. And I want to remind people, right, what we want, which is true science and and and and and true um academic pursuit of truth, is we we want those doctors and nurses and pharmacists, and I, you know, um, and I've worked with with a great pharmacist for a while. Um, you know, what we want them is to come out of reductionism and to bring their knowledge that can be shown to be true and correct into the picture. And I believe this renaissance has the opportunity to take the best that everyone has found to be established as true or truer, and rebuild, and it is rebuilding, a stronger philosophy of true medicine. I'm always gonna put the true in there, and ultimately, true medicine should be uh making our our goal should be to make ourselves redundant. We'll never succeed, but that's the goal, right? Uh you know, trauma medicine is a totally different thing, and but maybe I'll actually go out to do a podcast with you about trauma medicine and where it could go as well. That'd be interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:56

That sounds good.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:58

Okay. Well, thank you, my good friend, uh Doc Thomas, uh Gareth to me and your friends. And I'll close this, you know, uh um, with when I was uh a kid, my mother took on so I was destined for this this these kind of conversations. When I was a young kid, mom looked after other people's children uh whose parents were at work uh to come to school and come back from school, and many of them couldn't pronounce my name properly, and so they used to say, Can Jeremy come out to play? So I was destined to be involved in these kind of conversations with Jeremy. All right.