Remembering The Red Pill Pharmacist

A respected pharmacist. A fearless turn toward the data. A life that shows what it really costs to question a system that calls itself “evidence-based.” We’re recording with heavy hearts as we remember Graham Atkinson, widely known as the Red Pill Pharmacist, and we try to do something rare in public health conversations: hold grief and truth in the same hands.

We share the unlikely chain of events that connected Graham to our world, then walk through his transformation during the COVID era as he noticed the widening gap between what the numbers showed and what institutions claimed. We talk PCR testing, research conclusions that don’t match underlying data, and why “trust the science” can slide from scientific method into something more like a creed. Gareth brings the lens of a clinician who respects science deeply while insisting that real science is never settled.

Along the way we get honest about professional ostracism, identity collapse, and the storm that hits anyone who becomes publicly “heretical” inside medicine. We also explore what helps: tight circles of trustworthy people, grounding in nature, processing emotional energy instead of numbing it, and building lifeboats for practitioners who want healthcare reform without losing their humanity. If you care about medical freedom, healthcare ethics, and restoring integrity to medicine, this one stays with you.

Subscribe for more conversations like this, share it with someone who needs steadier footing right now, and leave a review so more listeners can find the show. What part of Graham’s story feels most familiar to you?

Transcript

Tempo: 60.0

SPEAKER_02 1:22

Well, welcome back to Doctors No More podcast with me, Dr. Jeremy, and my great Welsh friend, Dr. Gareth Thomas. And you know, if you're picking up in the tone of my voice, you know, um melancholy or sadness rather than my normal chirpy introduction and tone, you'd be right. Um we're recording this 29th of April, 2026. And we I want I've asked Gareth and he's agreed. I wanted to dedicate this podcast, this celebration of a life of a man, um, and a remembrance of a man and um the great which which may come as sad news to some people, it certainly came as a shock to many, but the the very sad and perhaps or perhaps not untimely passing of Graham Atkinson, aka the red pill pharmacist. And I wanted um, you know, and we want to do this as respectfully as we possibly can. Um, you know, and there's certain things I we you know probably can't share. So we're going to just uh walk the path as as respectfully as we can as a public broadcast, and yet hopefully honour um and celebrate the great man and and tangent off to how it may relate to you, and I'm sure it will, the listener who perhaps are walking similar paths or know of people who have walked similar paths in these um tumultuous evolving aquarian times. So with that said, um if you if you didn't know excuse me, if you didn't know, and I can't I can't say that there won't be tears, I've I've cried several times today. The sadness has has been real and raw, and I wanted to capture that with Gareth. Um but uh if you didn't know, um I had the great fortune um uh a few years back now, and it was actually I'll tell you a story. So when the guys and I, the human unleashed guys, um had written the Red Pill Revolution, or co-authored the Red Pill Revolution, but Ben did all the writing. We we we did you know uh the a major bulk of the sort of content of it, but Ben being the the master wordsmith did the writing, but we discussed it as co-authors in a real sense. Um when we were writing that book, and we knew excuse me, we knew or suspected that when we wrote it, which was at the beginning of 2020, or we completed it during 2020 when Convid was in full swing, that we knew or suspected that the Red Pill Revolution book would probably not sell as well as we all wished, but in the future may be a bridge. And that's how we wanted it, a bridge for those quote unquote not awake or just awakening, of which there is just an exponential movement of awakening around the world. And we hoped that they would at some point in their journey find the book and find its contents an acceptable, which they have, and very palatable um information and hopefully wisdom of how to sort of m um navigate the very, very difficult path from quote unquote being asleep and not really understanding uh what's been going on in the world and who's been pulling the strings to a more conscious one, let's put it that way. And there was a point um we, you know, we sold a few thousand books, and that was all very very nice, but there was a point where uh Daz of the Daz Band and the great light paper in England, and I think it's in Ireland and several other places, you know, offered us a sort of half-page free um advertisement or or editorial or whatever you call it. And and and Ben, you know, navigated that with Daz, and very generously uh he was to Daz. And so we had um, you know, a half page or whatever it was on the Red Poe Revolution put in the light paper, which you should all get and read and support Daz and all the great people that work there with the light paper. And you know, Daz was confident that, oh God, you know, whenever we do something like this, you know, you're gonna sell 10,000 books easily. And so we were all very animated and also looking forward to getting some royalties, because we really haven't had a penny out of it, uh, really. Um, it's all gone back into you know, whatever funding things or costs of publishing and that sort of stuff. Anyway, so you know, we got all kind of elevated. I've always tried to stay the middle ground. Like I I've I know that everything that I've done in life, and I think most people have come to see it, it's it's a marathon, not a sprint. So I try not to try to enjoy the wave of optimism, but not, you know, ride it at the top because sometimes when it when you get to the bottom, it's quite a difficult place to come out of. And sure enough, there was almost zero sales from this from this article. And I remember Ben particularly, I hope he doesn't mind me saying, but I remember Ben being particularly deflated. Uh, and I understand why, you know, we all needed the money and we all needed the sort of, you know, confirmation that we'd done something of value, which we have. Anyway, I remember saying, the wise man that I am, you know, I remember saying, look, you know, you never know who is gonna pick that book up and how it's going to affect them and what good they may do. And and I've I say that because over the many, many years that I've helped people, and then since being more public and broadcasting, which is oh goodness, way over ten years now, I think, I you know frequently have people write to me um and say to me, Oh, I heard you on a podcast four years ago, and you said I when I do podcasts and things, this is no different, although this is my favorite of all, of course.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

Yeah, you're bound to say that, aren't you?

SPEAKER_02 8:04

No, it's it's true. It it is absolutely true. I just adore you, and I don't make uh I don't hide it, but I respect your, you know, you're my you're my um non-physical, you know, um advisor, you know, and and wise and funny and real and fluffy you are.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

I'm your NFA.

SPEAKER_02 8:23

What's NFA?

SPEAKER_00 8:25

Oh sorry, NPA. Non-physical advisor.

SPEAKER_02 8:29

Okay, yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

I'm your NPA, okay. I like that. There you go. I take that.

SPEAKER_02 8:33

Okay, that's that's your new that's your new tagline, right? Um but anyway, um It's almost like IPA. Well, funny enough, I was gonna say you're my favorite. I don't really do pubs, and and I'm not in England currently, but when I do do a pub, it most certainly will want to be with Gareth, and we have our very special place in London, which we can't, you know, disclose because it's a very special place. But anyhow, very, very old pub, over 500 years. But anyway, you know, whenever I do pub uh you know, podcasts or interviews or whatever it was. Sorry. Yeah, pubcasts. That's what it should be, right? Pubcasts. I still want the old black sheep to happen, but anyway, um, whenever I did podcast, you know, interviews or whatever, I deliberately, and this is in reference to you know where I drew my comment of hopefully wisdom to Ben, said I would I would deliver, you know, consciously and knowingly seeds, because I know they go into people and plant. And one, for example, the people that write to me, one of my most famous ones or common ones, remembered and that you know planted a seed and grew, and this is what people tell me, is if a medicine makes a healthy man or woman sick, it can't make a sick man or woman healthy. And that's just one of those seeds that has done, you know, I mean, who knows? It's a it's tip of the pyramid, uh, iceberg, but then the number of people that have written to me or spoken to me is probably a fraction of how many people that's reached. And so my point to Ben was we can never know how many people, how many waves in the ether, positive waves, and how long and far they last or reach. And that was my reference point to um this apparent non-sales event for the Red Pill Revolution. Now, some months later, a pharmacist emailed me, and you need to understand that in over 30 years, other than nurses, nurses have been the one part of the medical profession that I particularly am fond of because they've reached out to me, they know what's going on, and I know we've got a new generation of nurses that are not so perhaps uh majoritively uh like the old nurses and particularly the old matron types, but they knew what was wrong and right and they knew how to fix medicine and they were ignored and and and suppressed and you know needed the job, so they sort of just soldiered on. So apart from nurses, you know, doctors and pharmacists do not email me. That quite the opposite. They're usually the the the greatest critics and the from my experience the the greatest problem. And so when a f I've only had three doctors ever reach out for my help.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

They tend to go after you in a different way.

SPEAKER_02 11:33

Correct, exactly. That's what I'm trying to avoid saying, but you you you you heard it correctly. So I've only had three doctors in 30 plus years reach out and ask for my help, and none of them did what I said. Right? They couldn't step out of being a doctor, um, and and so it didn't end well as far as I know. But so when a pharmacist reached out to me, my spider senses were not of, oh, how interesting. It was like, hello, what's your game? You know, particularly as it was, you know, early on in the CONVID era and the and and the vaccination era, and so I was very, very suspicious. But anyway, I uh not only suspicious, nervous. But anyhow, I um decided to reply, and he was asking for my help, and I had the first consultation um with this chap called Graham Atkinson, and you know, I very quickly realized that he he wasn't very well, he'd suffered tremendously, um and um quite tortured, but I wrote but I I knew I I I was in front of a well, I say I knew, I still had a modicum of fear, but I I really knew that I was in the presence of someone who was very, very genuine. And his story, and this is the bit I want to tell, you know, or part of it, so sorry that it's mostly me to begin with, but um his story was he was and how he came to hear of me was he was in a butcher's shop. He he'd got very bad digestive problems in those at those times, and he'd he certainly learnt about keto, I think. So he was in a his butcher's shop and waiting for him to, you know, cut about some meat and things, and um in came a chat with all these light newspapers and plomped them on the butcher's, you know, uh desk, or not desk, you know, a counter or table or whatever it was. And and you know, Graham Matt said, Well, well what's you know, what's this? And the butcher said, Oh, it's really good, it's his light paper, it's all these truth or stories, it's really interesting, you should you should have a look. So while he was waiting, he picked up the newspaper for the first time, never heard of it, and opened it and got to the half-page editorial on the Red Pill Revolution and bought the book there and then on Amazon. Went and read the book, and and the rest is history. He he he reached out to the human leaders team and he reached out to me. And and that's hopefully you get the connection that I said to Ben. And you know, it turned out that Graham was um uh a lifelong pharmacist. Uh he'd advised the UK government, so he'd been quite you know respected and you know elevated in that profession. He was a data-driven scientist, that's what he called himself more than a sort of more on a hands-on pharmacist. He was very much data-driven. And um at the time of the pandemic or the scam demic, which he now knew, um, he as was um in a quite a large GP practice. And when the pandemic um or scamdemic was announced, he believed it. He believed this was the hundred-year pandemics that they tell you come around. And um he thought he might die as well, and his colleagues might die, and statistically, you know, this amount of people are gonna die, and so he was very scared and also very driven that this is this is what's landed on his shoulders in his lifetime, and he must, you know, stand up and and and and do what's right. Um, however, as it progressed, him being a data-driven scientist, he he saw quite clearly that the data, the real data, was not matching what the television and the or the telele vision, as I call it, and the governments around the world, not just the UK, were communicating. And so he he w he delved delved deeper into it and realized that you know it really was very, very off and skewed. And so he went to his colleagues, and oh my god, I'm sad to say I've seen and heard this far too many times, but he went to his colleagues of which he was much respected, and in which he respected them, and it was a mutual professional relationship, expecting them to go, oh, that's interesting, let's have a look at that, and met with the extreme opposite. Um, he met with condemnation, ridicule, um and um everything that can be deemed negative professionally and human. And this shocked him, and and I and it was the beginning of it making him sick at the time, I believe. And so he but he was a tenacious spirit, and he kept delving and delving and delving, and the more he delved in his professional capacity, the more he realized that this is not a scandemic, it is a it it is a pandemic, it's a scandemic of data. You know, he he came to realise that the PCR test that was being relied upon was not a test, and and that the cycling of those tests was giving false data to create a paper pandemic and not a real one. Um and so, you know, without harking on that, because I've told the story a few times, the crux of it was he became more and more isolated and he began a very rapid um awakening of you know a baptism of fire awakening. And um, you know, he got to he started to uh I think he went to Stand in the Park um at the time, a great movement that just grew and grew around the whole world. And he started to meet people and he started to talk and then he got started to invite into to be talked, and he didn't at that point. And, you know, cut a long story short, it it just isolated him more from his profession. People started to ask him to stay in his profession as a quote unquote insider and try and help from the inside, and he did, to to my knowledge, and I got very close with Graham. Um he did everything he possibly could, believing that the NHS and his professional colleagues would eventually, you know, look at this truck the science, the truth, the data, and come round, but he was wrong. And it made him sick. And so he had no option in the end but to leave. And and I know I understand this position very well. Um he then was in, you know, sort of sort of almost purgatory, right? He he the the the the man that he became was not yet evolved, he couldn't go back into his profession, and understandably his family and friends and and professional colleagues and everybody that knew him, his identity, was struggling very much with this rapid change in this in this man. You know, all kinds of pressures and labels and and and c you know problems were created. And that's when he came to me. And I did a lot of work with him, I got very close with him, and throughout that process, of which at the time he became you know robustly well, um the red pill pharmacist was born, and he he decided he wanted to, you know, make a stand and give talks and go on interviews and go on podcasts and and and you know try and get the world to listen. And you know what? He did a tremendous job. I I was there for his first public you know sp talk, and it was you couldn't get another person in the hall. Uh never seen like it, right? And you know, he was he was very, very nervous, understandably of how he'd be received, and he opened it, and this is the this really shows the integrity of the man. He pretty much opened his talks with a deep, heartfelt apology. Um because during the pandemic and before he left, and reluctantly, he had to set up a vaccination clinic in his in the practice, and he didn't want to do it, but he didn't know what else he could do. And but anyway, he opens up his talks with a heartfelt, soulfelt apology to anyone that he may have inadvertently harmed or or damaged from from his involvement in these vaccinations. And you know, there was almost a standing ovation of applause when he gave this, and and and he needed that, he needed that um thank you for your sincerity, and people understood, they really did understand, and and I think that that gave him great courage to to forge forward, and I'll just make this a little bit shorter. So he did forge forward, and um he was on many, many podcasts, and he became quite uh well known, and um you know got into some quite large podcasts. Uh he was in the middle of writing a book, which I was encouraging him to do and sort of liaising with him, which may never get published now, which would be a great shame, called The Death of Medicine, but I hope it does. Um and um the other things that were uh happening to him was uh he started to liaise with myself and Graham Norby on something that I hope will still be birthed, and it was called Project Lifeboat. And uh Graham and I and Graham Norbre Norbes um had a weekend or so in uh uh the Lake District, and we recorded a lot of videos introducing Project Lifeboat, which was going to be a members only for uh those of the medical profession that could join, come across, because we we understood more and more there were more and more disgruntled professionals in quote unquote modern medicine, from pharmacists to dentists to nurses to doctors that needed to rather than just quiet quit, although a lot of them had done that, they needed a boat to ferry them into a place where they could just start a lot like what Nelson Mandela did, uh the truth councils or whatever they could, they just just get off their chest what they'd seen and what they shared without being judged, you know, and then w our hope was that that would lead into. An energetic space of pushing you know what I call the medical renaissance forward because I know Gareth knows this, I know there are good people in medicine that have been misdirected, and and many of them discovered this more so in the last four or five years. They want to do good, they've definitely got skill sets. And and that's one of the books I was getting uh or or working with, Graham, was I wanted a book called The Baby in the Bathwater, which is the baby is the beautiful baby that modern medicine, dentistry, and you know, even some pharmac pharmacology has brought. Of course, there are good things in medicine that we do not want to lose or discard, and that's that beautiful baby. But the bathwater is an ocean of filth and and uh profit-driven and not truth driven, and that's why we wanted to get that across. So, anyway, I'm gonna hand to Gareth now. Um I I in his meteoric rise, and I've seen this, I saw this with uh Anna Debussier, who also sadly passed um some year, some uh probably over a year ago now, the great lawyer who stood up and became viral, you know, quoting laws and quoting facts. But um, you know, he started to get pulled and pushed. People wanted a bit of Graham, people wanted to work with Graham, people wanted to destroy Graham, people wanted to, you know, it's all these different energies. And Graham was, you know, such a gentle spirit, a you know, strong but gentle spirit. And I saw him pulled and pushed, and you know, I I understood that there were quite a few attacks on him about working with me, and uh, you know, all these sorts of things. It's it's not nice, it's it's horrid actually. And you know, it it caused a situation where Gra Graham, which of course I supported, wanted to step back from that and just kind of recalibrate and find himself, and and so I hadn't had anything to do with Graham for some time and just wished him well. And then it was very sad news that I heard four weeks ago, and he actually came to me in a dream. Um, but it's four weeks ago I heard that he'd suddenly declined. I didn't even know what that meant. I said, I well, I don't know whether he was depressed or something. And then the sad news came in yesterday, and it is sad news, it's made me cry uh that he'd passed, and I understand that about four weeks ago he became quite ill, quite unwell, and and it was a rapid decline, and he passed. And and you know, Gareth, it took 24 hours, and it's that's how it sort of works with me. But it's just a whole heap of sadness around this story, um, and that's what I want to discuss because I think others will relate to this. I think they'll be moved by his passing and the work he did, and I'm quite sure he's gonna help us from the other side. But you know, thank you for bearing with me for such a long introduction. But what are you what are you what are your thoughts? I mean, you you met Graham in Ambleside, he came and did one of our live events. What what are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 25:20

Yeah, I mean, I before that I had a quite a long conversation with him. Um and um I think it was a telephone conversation and w I mean I I recognize the kindred spirit, yeah. You know, someone who um deep down has this feeling of healthcare is a is a service of to humanity and his his ideals and his uh his focus is in the right place, right? Yes. And I th I think that unfortunately, I mean I I in Ambleside, I I sat and watched his uh presentation. It was it was excellent, you know. Yeah, it really from a scientific point of view, it was excellent, like accurate information, and if you're a true true true scientist, you'd look at it and you go, wow, this is this is important information. But it it highlights then that you know do do people in these systems really take scientific data seriously? Or are you know it's for example, and I've done it myself, right? Yeah, I I read a a um a research paper, I don't read through it, I look at the conclusion.

SPEAKER_01 26:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

And I think a lot of yeah, I think a lot of people do it. They go conclusion, and uh more often than not, the conclusion is not really a representation of the data, right? Yeah. And then it you come across people who are seriously into data, like epidemiologists or people who are really into research, and you know, they can deconstruct a uh a research paper and say that it says something totally different to the conclusion. And unfortunately, what what I think what happens is that and uh you know, this is maybe just my personal take on it. Most people in healthcare they have to look at research papers, but they don't really understand how they work. Yeah, right? You you really understand how they work if you're creating those papers yourself, or if you're into epidemiology, and I think that um because of the nature of Graham's work, he he had to be in tune with the the research, you know. But it's like what happens is that you get information, information, information without a connection to real world uh happenings, and it's very easy in a system to just go along with what you've been fed in terms of information, and then it becomes reality, you know, and that that's that's the that's the disharmony that that happens is then if you see in the real world situation it doesn't actually make sense, then you're in that quandary of, you know, I've I've built a lot a lifetime on this type of information. Yeah, how how do I move forward with this?

SPEAKER_02 28:29

You're you're absolutely right, because one of my conversations with Graham was um you know, ironically, um I said to him, you weren't ready to talk or work with someone like me until you know, Convid and the crisis that happened to you, because if I'd have met you pre-that, you would Graham would have said to me, you know, in a very nice way, because he could only really behave in a nice way, you know, show me the study, and I would have laughed at him, you know, and he wouldn't have understood it. Because it has been my understanding that the studies are what I call mostly BS, bad science. You know, even the Lancet says 50, they just can't tell you which 50%. And it's probably more than that, and it's my understanding, like you said, that most people, because just haven't got the time. I don't think most doctors are actually even reading studies, right? But but those that even do, read the title, read the conclusion, because they just haven't got the time. But on top of that, there is uh there was a study done, and this is my favorite study, um, where they put in the middle of the study, in a box, three cases of champagne if you call this number, right, for reading the study, and no one ever called it. Right? And they did that deliberately because they believed no one read the studies. And so, you know, when I, you know, I there was um he's still around, actually. I I don't almost want to give him energy, but there's a I won't I won't name him because I don't want to give him energy, but there's a very well-known vegan bodybuilding um podcast YouTuber, uh, and he's a particularly disturbed chap. And you know, um at some point someone said, you know, why don't and he's very quote unquote scientific when he when he's debating people, not that they're debates, they're just they're just arguments at each other, no one's listening to each other. You know, he always will quote a study. And someone said, Why don't you go and debate this chap, you know? And I said, Why would I do that? I'd only lose, and yet I'd then go on to continue helping people, you know, and so what I meant by that was, you know, you these show me the study are the etheral fake, usually data information bat that you hit someone perhaps with better knowledge over the head with. Because usually we can't show you the study. We can only show you the experience, the patterns, the philosophy, the testimonials, the you know, the stubbornness of time that that that when people have done this over time, they've had consistent goodly good results. Because it's deliberately, you can't do it's like the supplement industry, Gareth. Yeah, m the reason why most supplements have got this is not FDA approved, blah, blah, blah, blah, is because it's like a million bucks to even begin to get any kind of sort of data on it. And therefore, it's it's it's a it's a loaded game to keep the quote unquote evidence-based medicine up at the perceived top. And and see, Graham, Graham, you know, he agreed with me when I said that, right? Graham came, and it was he's such a you know, for me, it was for me when I was working with him, I saw it as the yin and yang. I don't know which one was which, you'd have to tell me. But it was the, you know, the quack, as the cynics have called me. I like to think myself as a true doctor, with the the mainstream scientific, data-driven pharmacist. I think it was a beautiful balance. And he was able to take that brilliant mind of his, scientific mind, and start to show what was wrong and what was right in a more, you know, and and it was a beautiful thing to be born, to be honest, you know, and and so yeah, back to back to you, this, you know, and this is what Graham, you know, c and his book The Death of Medicine, which I hope somehow we can get. I do have a copy of it, but that's just not right to do anything with it. But um it was medicine, the medical renaissance energy, it medicine is dying because it's not evidence-based. Actually, when you actually apply science to it, you come to see very quickly the holes, huge holes, the the cracks in the foundation. And if someone like Graham, which he will continue to do in the other world, is able to bring true science, which is what we want. We want true science in context, not as the pinnacle. It's in a circle, not a triangle or or hierarchy of if it's not evidence-based, it's not valid. Which what do you think about that?

SPEAKER_00 33:26

Yeah, the the idea that you know that there's that phrase, isn't it? The science is settled. Um and I always, you know, I I look, I I'm I I've had to have a a lot of involvement with science because I had to study science, right? And my heroes were, you know, the Newtons and the Galileos and all the old school um scientists, and even um Einstein, you know. But those those people were of the mind that science is never settled. What you're doing is you're creating an understanding of of the world, and it's not fixed. Because if somebody comes along and challenges it, challenges it, as they mentioned. Yeah, you welcome it because then you're you're in the the you're in the realm of science. That's what science is.

SPEAKER_02 34:28

Well the greatest oxymoron the greatest oxymoron is trust the science.

SPEAKER_00 34:34

Yeah. You know, absolutely, yeah, because it's you you you don't. When somebody comes along with a uh scientific theory or they prove it to a certain degree, you mistrust it constantly. And then you re you know, reevaluate, somebody else comes along with another idea, and that's how it keeps evolving and changing. But I think what's happened, um and it, you know, it it sort of mirrors in in uh conventional healthcare that um there was a point where people wanted to be fixed, because when you've got something that's fixed, you've got more predictive outcomes, especially financially. Yeah. You know, and I I know, I mean, I from my brief period, you know, studying to be a dentist, um you you start to realise that a lot of science is um funded, you know, by big organizations that want you to do certain types of science, they don't want you to challenge a theory, you know, that that you want to disprove something. They want to continue on the path that is financially viable. And unfortunately, if you really you know that might be a short-term gain for people, but in terms of humanity, it's it's um it's not sustainable because what it does, it it makes it stagnant, so nothing new comes in. And really, the I the idea of an ever-evolving science is that new ideas come in, that creates new energy, that creates more wealth, that creates more health, that creates more you know, that's that's the energy forward way of thinking. Whereas what's happened is that you've got this control of of lots of um scientific theories, it's locked in, and then what happens is the people within that system of consciousness they get locked into it. So they can't, you know, it's difficult to think outside of the box then.

SPEAKER_02 36:42

Well they become dependent upon it too.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

What they actually become slightly religious to it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:48

I think remove slightly.

SPEAKER_00 36:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:51

It's like, you know, it's very cultish science.

SPEAKER_00 36:53

Yeah, look, uh people think cults are just um you know, people sitting around in a in a room and you can't leave. Uh but it's like if you think about it, a cult is a you know, you get a central figure that controls everything and doesn't allow you to leave.

SPEAKER_02 37:10

Do you know do you want to hear something funny? Go on. Right. On on occasion over over the live. From you. Yes, I know it's rare, but this may be the moment.

SPEAKER_00 37:20

Hang on, hang on hang on, hang on. I'm gonna put the little re recorder on in my brain so I can record this. Go on, I'm ready. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 37:27

So you know, a few times throughout my you know career, you know, especially when I had a quite a large following on the last couple of years. That's it. Um, you know, I've been accused of running a cult. And I laugh. I laugh because uh anybody who knows me, especially follows me. If I'm a cult, then I'm the cult of don't believe a word I'm saying and think for yourself, right? Um, which is the opposite of cult. The cults are do not question me, do not think for yourself. And if you do, the rest of you uh need to be need to attack that person and destroy them, right? And that's exactly what happens in science. If you, particularly in the last few years, which has happened to Graham, if you question the science, and he did so intelligently, methodically, um, and the questions were valid and turned out to be all correct, of course. But and this this is why you show how dangerous it is, and and how it must die and is dying, that rather than you know, have that conversation with this gentle man, and he really was a gentleman, you know, they chose to attack, destroy, kick out, remove his ability to earn money, you know, to ostracize, to criticize, excuse me, and basically the age old ruin will ruin him, and and you know, therefore the science remains settled.

SPEAKER_00 39:06

Yeah, I I mean you you can find the mirror of that in in the history of science, like true true scientists have always been in that position, right? So, you know, um in the times where scientists were heretics, you know.

SPEAKER_02 39:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

And they they they brought a different understanding, you know, and who's to say, you know, there it's an understanding of how the universe works. It might change, right? It changes all the time. So ideas of how the universe works from you know eons ago is different to the way we think it now. It doesn't necessarily mean what we think now is correct, or back then it's just a different take on things in relation to I can tell you they've got some things wrong. Oh, yeah, absolutely, yeah. But it's just, you know, we are we are in a stream of thought and we're making way of understanding something, but most great scientists have been in that position of um being named like a heretic against the the grain and suffered for it, you know, and badly suffered from it, and you know it's almost like you know, um well, it's not almost like that that's what it is. If you if you go against the grain of thought, then people don't say, well, let's chat about this, let's discuss it like human beings. It's more of you we you're not thinking like us, so we want you out, and we don't want to listen to what you want, you know, what you've got to say. And if you do that, then there's this conflict, and a conflicting system never comes up with something that's you know good for everyone.

SPEAKER_02 40:48

So here's the thing you you use the word heretics, and I like that, and there's been many heretics before us and Graham, and there'll be many after, no doubt. But you know, the the scandemic has created more heretics than any time in history, I would suggest. And and many are walking a similar path, differently, but but but similarly to Graham. And no doubt they're enduring or have endured the similar real challenges, and those challenges, you know, without without saying anything inappropriate, are are being pushed energetically, emotionally, pushed and pulled from many directions. You know, it is not a calm sea that you find yourself navigating with a wind of it's this way, you're going the right direction, everything's okay. It's quite the opposite. It's it's absolutely for the human spirit and the human flesh, a a storm that never really settles. It's it it rears up and then goes down to maybe a lesser storm, but it's never really smooth sailing. And ultimately, if you can't manage that and are not in an energetic field and state of of being able to sail that sea for that analogy, the boat or flesh will fail. So I'm asking you for those listening that no doubt will be grieving as we are for this gentleman, and who have found themselves in or have just found themselves in or are still in these stormy waters, particularly in 2026 where where you know uh the storm is raging, the storm as you know, it's actually quite uh accurate to use the word storm, but we are in the storm. How what do you say for the ordinary man and woman, and maybe maybe those who are even at the coal front and more public, how do you navigate this when friends and family and colleagues, and many people have got new friends and colleagues, but there's still this push and pull. How do you navigate that and not fall or sink?

SPEAKER_00 43:23

Well, I I think you have to find like-minded people. That's one. I mean, I um whenever I teach um you know groups of people um on the healing course I do, um they the the first thing people say within the first weekend is oh, it's so nice to be around like minded people, right? 'Cause everyone else thinks I'm crazy. You know? And my my my answer to that is, well, um why do they think you're crazy? Oh, because we You know, we believe in the non-physical world and everyone thinks it's nonsense and and I I and I always come back with look to actually think that your physical body is all that it is is is insane. If you think about it. If you think that all you are is a lump of flesh and nothing else, that there's nothing beyond that, to me that's I mean insane is a word, but it's uh it just is so restrictive. Once you open yourself up to things that are beyond your understanding, it it feels right as long as you navigate the ways, you know, correctly. And I think what happens, especially in in these fields where you've got, you know, you're talking about Anna uh in law, when you've got these really, really, you know, um highly highly constructed engineered systems where you you know if you think about it, that is so set in a certain way that to step outside that and be something else can be very isolating.

SPEAKER_02 45:16

Yes. And and Anna, having had the pleasure of you know consulting with her, um, but again, there was too many people wanting to be her chef, yeah uh uh you know, from that analogy, and I and I just stepped back and and and and sadly watched the wrong things occur, in my view. But she was perhaps one of the most traumatized uh women that I'd uh taken a consultation with, but also the bravest.

SPEAKER_00 45:45

Yeah, but what she I mean, what she used to share was I was amazing.

SPEAKER_02 45:50

Yeah, she was amazing, she is amazing.

SPEAKER_00 45:52

So you get a what you're talking about there is you know, it the the physical vehicle might be challenged, but it doesn't mean the soul can't shine through it. Yeah. You know, and I think that yeah, and I think it's the same agreement. That that soul, you know, when when you connect with your soul energy, right, and you s your soul wants to bring something into the world, it depending on what you're doing, it doesn't always get easier, it can sometimes get more difficult initially, you know, and you and it it can become like a knife edge uh that you're walking on to try and stay on it, and because you know you'll get people, you know, I it's like you, the the work I do, the energy it doesn't make you great friends, you know, it it doesn't, you know, and it's like I um uh I think that's um if I if I was you know I don't think I'd if I was a a medical practitioner, I don't think I'd be able to be still in it because my work is more of a practical nature, you know. I d I I don't think I could be in that with what I know about general health and the connection between you know the the mind, body interconnection, and the you know, the spirit and soul of people and the energy side of things. I I'm probably quite happy that I chose dentistry, right? And maybe my soul said, you know what, go for dentistry rather than medicine, because you'll be able to remain in that for a certain period of time until it's time when you you know you move more into what you do, or you'll find a balance between the two, you know.

SPEAKER_02 47:50

Well, I for one are very grateful that because you are just a brilliant, skilled dentist, and anybody that needs dentistry, you should you really should see Gareth because you can trust whatever he says to you, and and he is always trying to not do dentistry if possible. But he's he's wonderful, plus he can bring his other many talents. But you know, what you've just said is is very profound in in uh in many ways because you know I I'm gonna lead to the end of this sentence is so why do we keep doing it? Why do we just yield and go and do something that but you know what we've had to do at maybe soul level is somehow I always say to people, I'm not in business, I'm running a mission, right? And and the business part is is connected to it because I have to earn money. You know, I I I have to keep a roof over you know my family's head and feed them, and my God can they eat, and so on and so forth. And so your dentistry, as skilled and as valued as it is, and it is, right, is basically keeping a roof over your head. And the other stuff is you.

SPEAKER_00 49:02

Yeah, but it's look, I I talking about training people, um, I get some people come onto a course and they they believe that you should give your your healing skills free, right? Yeah, that's a that's a consistent missing and I and I say no, you shouldn't. No, I say you you're gonna go through two years here, you're gonna work hard, you're gonna go through some changes, you're gonna have to question your life in certain ways, you're gonna have to go through all these painful um things that are gonna come up, you're gonna put energy into it, you should be reciprocated for it, right? And you should value the fact that if you do something well, whatever it is, and I think this happens in and it might be one of the reasons why more doctors don't come out of it, that you know that their option is to go into something um unconventional, and they feel that they're not going to be rewarded for it because that's you know, that pattern's not really set up.

SPEAKER_02 50:04

Whereas I shared with you, I saw I've seen this in America from at least the people that speak to me in America. There's a lot of doctors trying to get one foot out and start memberships and things, but their their wings are clipped because they can't they can talk about the sort of generic YouTube circadian biohacking kind of thing, and you know, and everyone is dogs doing that, but they can't go beyond anything that will then affect their license and ruin their status and career. And that's the yeah, and I have said to people that have reached out to me from America, you can't be in both camps. You can't.

SPEAKER_00 50:42

I think I mean yeah, I the only way you can be in both camps is if you help each side of it evolve. Okay, I accept that. So so if you're if you're in a in general medicine and you've got um that uh that will for things to do something different, and then you know w why isn't it a uh an environment where you could do that, where you say, do you know what? Um rather than giving this person this drug, let's make a protocol for them to get healthy. You know, if they choose not to do it, it's up to them, right? It's not it's the same same with everything, free will, but at least give an opportunity to bring some different ideas in. And then what happens is that you know the person gets more power themselves, self-empowerment. The practitioner feels good about what they do. Because I know they are definitely from speaking to people within the profession, they lots of doctors feel like they're not they're not doing what they're meant to be doing, they're not really not healing people, you know. Well, you know, they feel like they're doing the opposite sometimes. Well, in respect they are.

SPEAKER_02 51:58

They mostly are when you look at things how we look at it. But you know, there's a wonderful documentary called Bort, which which shows how uh the the pharmaceutical companies um do all these investigations before they launch a drug of how many people it's going to harm and kill, and and percentage-wise, how many will actually m navigate the legal system to get some money. And they and they they literally do how much profit to how much damage is. And and and it's a fascinating documentary, and that's what Graham Atkinson came to see, you know, that it wasn't evidence-based medicine, it was data-manipulated marketing and business models. And he came to see it in in a very rapid way. And what you've just described is is of course the the human way. And and what you have to come to see is that you when I say you can't be in both camps, is that you and the example I'm going to use, and oh my goodness, I can't think of this doctor's America, a black American doctor woman. Um she's she's famous for really prescribing the turpentine cure that allegedly came from the slaves in the cotton fields, that whenever they had something wrong, they'd take turpentine on the sugar. And it turns out it was probably an antiparasitic or something like that. I can't remember her name right now, but a wonderful woman. And she started uh this is just a you know labour the point. She decided um that she didn't want to prescribe drugs where possible, and she wanted to give lifestyle changes and da-da-da. And she turned out to get more and more successful until she almost wasn't prescribing any drugs. And the FDA or the AMA or all of them came down and literally said, This has got to stop. You know, we've noticed, because they've all got records, right? You know, data, that your sales, I mean prescriptions, have dramatically reduced, and this has just got to stop. And um she said, well, no, because you know, look, they're actually much healthier, and I can show you that they're better you know sorry, perhaps you didn't understand us. Anyway, so it what happened in her case was that they literally destroyed her career and put her on the terrorist list. And so she had to leave. And I believe she's practicing in Panama, where a lot of you know, quote unquote, rogue scientists, rogue doctors have gone. She's still practicing very successfully, um, you know, not as a licensed, you know, lie sense doctor in Panama. But that is an example of a business model, you know, racket threatened over, oh my God, them coming down. Oh my God, this is amazing. What are you doing? You're saving the country so much money. Oh my God, you're showing so much improvement. What are you doing? That's the medical renaissance. That's what we're bringing in, and that's what's happening. And Graham Atkinson was right to write the book, you know, The Death of Medicine, because they've been so successful at making people sick and quote unquote, you know, managing symptoms so it appears like good medicine, that there are more people than ever before. You know, just look at the excess deaths. The excess deaths in in Ireland, I'm told, are over 40% now, which is which is 2% would be seen as like a war event or or or something like that, right? It's it's off the chart. They've been so successful that they literally are imploding, and that's what I'm hearing from people working in the system, they're imploding on their own success. They cannot cope.

SPEAKER_00 55:52

Yeah, I you know, I I don't think one once a wave starts, which is what's happening, I don't, you know, I know in astrolog astrology and um all the old systems have to break down and new ones are have to be born, you know. And are breaking down for clearly it you know, it's been desperate there's a desperate attempt for it not to. Yeah, but you it it's just the nature of things, right? I I mean I d it just it is connected to something this morning. I was I was out in the garden, you know, having a coffee in the sunlight, right? And just chilling. And I I I picked up this stone I I found in Scotland, right? And it's beautifully shaped, it's got a little bit of quartz run into it, and it's just shaped by nature, right? And I just thought, you know, this thought came to me like this has been allowed to just be weathered naturally, and it's got it's in tune with the way things naturally flow, naturally progress, and this is what it's created something really beautiful, and to an extent we need to get back to that ourselves, this disconnection with the way things really truly are, and that means if something comes up that's against what you originally thought, you have to go with it and look at it, and then as long as you look at it and you know take that information in, compare it to something else, only then can you make a uh a constructive decision on which way to go, right? But if you don't take all the information, then you're just stuck in one direction, you know, yeah, and you keep going down the same road, and if you know, at some point if that road is out of tune with the way things truly are, it will have to break down, you know, and that's what's happening, and um it it should be more celebrated, people who have a different approach to things, more celebrated, more you know, more inspiring. The these are the ideals of true science, you know. And I would say, look, I I mean the brief time I spent with Graham and I haven't met him, you know, he he he's of that camp where I could see him back in back in the day with um Hippocrates, you know. Round round round an olive tree, listening to the teachings or whatever. It's that sort of mentality of you know humanity first, money second.

SPEAKER_02 58:42

It's funny that you say that because in our possibly we we did an interview, but certainly in our private conversations, he he referred to me as Hippocrates 2.0 and and I'm thinking as Galen 2.0, right? And and it it it made me laugh, and I well, I'm taking that, thank you. Still the greatest compliment I've ever been given by the No Bullshit MD podcast was the Yoda of Natural Health. And I went, yeah, that's mine, right? I I am Yoda. And actually to continue along that path in the last ten minutes of today's, you know, recognition of this gentleman's life and work, at least that we've known it. Um, you know, there's a scene in Star Wars, and I can see him actually almost like a kind of monk in in the Obi-Wan Kenobi Brown sort of cloak thing. And there's a there's the famous scene where he's fight fighting Darth Vader, who's the you know, archetypal reference point of dark, darkness and dark energy. And he, you know, he drops his weapon, he stops fighting him, and if I remember it correctly, and he says, if you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine. And I absolutely believe, you know, even though there's great sadness, and and our thoughts and hearts and prayers must go out to his family and and friends that that knew him, you know, better than us, of course. Um, you know, I feel that the work that Graham did in the last few years are not only going to be amplified by him from the other side and continued, but I believe they will become more powerful than he could have ever hoped. Because, you know, this this for anyone who's listening who has suffered similarly, you know, or maybe suffering, you know, um Gareth's words are very wise as usual. We must surround us, and that might be an animal, by the way. We must try and surround ourselves with a very tight circle, which I've learnt to my you know detriment over the last few years. I now have a very tight circle of which I include Gareth that I can 100% rely upon, you know, w which which is very necessary when things are tough. And energetically, this energy, negative it may be, even worse, comes into you or at you. And you have to recognize that it's come into you. You can't suppress it and block it and or or take drugs or drink it away. That would be an error. You have to acknowledge it, process it, and that sometimes takes more time than we can fit into our busy lives, but you need to process it, and that's when you need really good people or really good animals and nature around you until that can be processed um into something positive and put back out there. And I know how I'm going to end this podcast in a few minutes as well. Would you would you agree, Gareth? Because if we're not we can't defend and block this energy, or can we?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:06

Yeah, I mean uh you're talking about if you uh I I think that you know people get into these fights, you know, and it's like uh uh my teachers used used to say to me, you know, you can't fight evil, right? Because if you fight it against it directly, yeah, you you become it to a certain degree, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:29

That that was exactly the Darth Vader thing with Skywalker. Yeah, it's he agitated him and said, That's it. You're getting cl so there's real wisdom there. Sorry to be.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:40

Yeah, there is, yeah. Well, look, all that stuff has got wisdom in it, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. And uh she used to say the only thing you can do is acknowledge it's there and move on to something higher and share that. So don't get drawn into it and on a much lower vibration because you get hooked into it and it draws you down into the low vibrations. What you do is you see it, acknowledge it's there, and move up in vibration, and do something that's that's very true to you, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:11

Do you know what?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:12

And uh and I think I I mean I I I it's sad. I I felt I was so shocked when I heard the news, and I I it's sad that he's a lovely guy, really lovely guy.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:23

You know, he truly gentle man. Yeah, definitely kindred speech. And you know what? And I don't want to deteriorate from that seriousness, but do you know what I've just realized? Who you are? Well, if if I was named Yoda, I'm now giving you a tag, right? I've just seen it.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:39

Yes, is it is it OB?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:41

Yes, but wait. Well, look, I see it so clearly now, but how even how you look, can I just say right? Go on, you are because you're so wise, right? You are OB Welsh Kenobi.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:57

Also, listen, because I've started beekeeping, OB.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:02

Oh my, oh my god. This is another one of those cow moments when me and my other previous Gareth, you know, realized the cows knew everything. You are, you literally are OB Welsh Kenobi. Oh my god, thank you, Graeme. Wherever that came from, Graham Atkinson gave that to me. I'm not getting that's who you are. I'm Yodo of Natural Health, and you're OB Welsh Kenobi. So listen, that's good energy to you know wind this up. And, you know, I'm I'm gonna end this, you know, certainly with immense gratitude to Graham Atkinson for all he did and and and the work he put in and and the lives he's touched and will continue to touch. And we sincerely um hope that his family can can can find their way through their grief and move on and come to love and celebrate him for what he did and and you know, prior to our involvements and things, and and hopefully um they can heal and and and br and you know continue perhaps even some of his his work all light. But I've just written and uh and it will be published, and I will hope G Gareth will put it in the links. My first Substack. I'd been working on it on and off of it for some time, and this came about is that a sandwich of some sort? Substack, no. No, but that would be a great name, right, for a for a sandwich company, right? Someone's gonna grab that now. But no, I I've will have published, I'm just you know, finishing off today, but it's in honor again of Graham Max and inspired by it, because at the end of the day, I I believe what really, you know, brought Graham to what what he's gone through was words. And the energy in those words, both but both you know, aimed at him and his own words of what he may have been believing or thinking, and it's that energy. And so, you know, I want to close today. Um you can go and read it uh or listen to it because I'm recording it as an audio, you know, the title of that sub that first substack, and and so I'll close here, and that is again in memory of the great gentleman Graham Atkinson Sticks and Stones May Break My Bones, but words can wound your body.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:38

God bless you, Graham. Bye, Graham.