Good jobs with union benefits: an antidote to the far-right?

Siobhan Vipond, Executive Vice-President of the Canadian Labour Congress, joins Left East to West ahead of the labour federation's policy convention, which opens on May 11 in Winnipeg.

Siobhan talks about the shifting demands in representing workers as Canadians took hits from the pandemic recession and inflation -- and now Trump 2.0. With an economic attack from outside and 1.5 million jobless workers inside Canada, Siobhan talks about the renewed focus on job creation within unions, and how it can help defeat the far-right. She gives some insights on the emerging discussion about how sectoral bargaining can be developed to bring the protection of union membership to more workers.

PLUS: Nikki updates us on the BC Conservative leadership race. And Tom wonders if social democracy -- in Canada, anyway -- has a new populist focus on our experience as consumers.

Transcript

Welcome

Nikki Hill 0:26

Welcome to Left East to West with me, Nikki Hill.

Tom Parkin 0:29

And me, Tom Parkin, and I'm happy to be living in a time where affordability hasn't been better in a decade, according to our Prime Minister.

Nikki Hill 0:38

Probably not spending a lot of time in those coupon apps right now, though.

Tom Parkin 0:42

Yeah. Well, fortunately, we do have an interview with somebody today who does speak with a lot of people who have to spend time in coupon apps to make ends meet, and that's Siobhan Vipond, the Canadian Labor Congress Executive Vice President. She's here for our feature interview, and we're going to talk with her about the needs of working families as we've moved through COVID response to inflation to now Trump 2.0, , how to fight the anti-worker far right, Canada's challenging energy policy and politics, and developing an economic plan and roam and roadmap to create jobs.

Nikki Hill 1:20

And we'll learn a little bit more about Siobhan, who started as a stage and film technician at Edmonton IATSE local and has become an executive officer at the Canadian Labor Congress all this week as the CLC gets ready for a policy convention in Winnipeg in mid-May. But first, let's take a peek at this week's Below the Fold, taking a look at a couple of important stories that didn't make national headlines.

Tom: a new consumer-left?

Nikki Hill 1:45

This segment is called This Week Below the Fold, but Tom, it sounds like you want to go to This Week Down a Rabbit Hole, which I just want to flag it's not the idea.

Tom Parkin 2:04

I know, I know, okay. But at the risk of being a little bit of a nerd, yeah, I do want to go down a rabbit hole that's been tempting me for a while. Um and it's about the idea that maybe we're seeing a bit of a change in orientation on the political left in Canada, at least. I'm not really sure that it's a global trend. Um one that I think hasn't been much reflected on. And and and that also surprises me. Or or m maybe Nikki, it's just that I'm completely off base. Maybe it's that that's the other alternative. Um But I think social democracy has always been centered on the idea that of getting workers a better economic bargain or creating structures that put workers into the question of how wealth is created shares and invested, something something in that zone about about workers and working class people. But I think we're seeing something a little bit different emerge recently, a shift from kind of left labourism to maybe left populism, maybe to left consumerism, where politics becomes centered on our experiences as consumers and a blend of a populist analysis of how we as consumers are being treated by an elite. Um we're in an age of inflation, inflation fear, and unpleasant price shocks. We can remember when, you know, olive oil cost half as much. That was only, you know, it goes up, it goes down, coffee up and down, or we wonder, you know, when did it start costing 20 bucks to buy a couple pounds of stewing beef? Or, you know, why is gas 30% up in in a month? I mean, how often did you hear these as everyday conversations about how people feel, you know, everything is just expensive now?

Nikki Hill 3:49

Oh, all the time, everywhere you go now.

Tom Parkin 3:51

Yeah, I think it's pretty deep in our culture now. It's become quite deep in the last few years. And while that is happening, we also have this big tech and the pricing algorithms, which we know are constantly scouring for ever better ways to make money off us to make us pay more and divert that money to the wealthy and politically powerful people, the elite who control the tech and the algorithms. Um and added to this is is is an elite that we have today, which is possibly some of the most transparently horrible people you know collectively that I I can ever remember. Um which I guess on one hand is to be expected of people who act as economic predators. Um and maybe that seems like a bit of a side story, but I think maybe it's culturally central and it ties a lot of other current themes together, not not just this predator pricing, but other kind of predator behavior.

Nikki Hill 4:52

So well, I mean I think there's also just a higher consciousness in the in the public right now. And you know, again, sort of back to things that that that Trump has forced, where people are are seeing that elite, whether it's you know, things like , you know, the Epstein files or just the, you know, where we're seeing Trump make decisions that are impacting markets in a way that just benefits his wealthy friends and not and not working people. I think there's just a heightened awareness in the public that there are forces at work here which are very real and a lot more visible that are that are working against them.

Tom Parkin 5:26

Yeah, so it kind of feels to me like there's this moral distinction that maybe we really didn't have. Um, I don't know, just maybe before the pandemic, before the inflation era, , between the the price-setting elite and the price-paying consumer. And so it's not just about the money. It's about the money, but it's not just about the money, it's also about moral identity and and some disgust, frankly, of Trump, the things he says the way he is, and the people he surrounds himself with. Um there is kind of a moral us and them. They are not good people. Uh and and there's a significant political shift, I think, , in moving from at the same time thinking about inflation as caused by, you know, global macroeconomic forces and you know that kind of nobody's really responsible for it, to an a a different idea now, which seems to be much stronger, that inflation is generated by people in charge. Um and the logical corollary to that is if people in charge can create inflation to benefit themselves, then cr inflation can be also you know could be unmade. So I think that's what we've seen a little bit of this populism idea playing out in this inflation politics now in in policy offers. So fuel hikes on from Iran wars, it's prompting moves to cut fuel taxes, for example. And and you know, I I would say anyway, it seems to me that cutting fuel taxes does help absorb inflation a bit, so not wrong, but it doesn't fix inflation. Um it certainly doesn't prevent an elite from making out like bandits while we're getting robbed at the gas station. Carney's food benefit payment, same thing. It it does help some people, but it doesn't fix inflation. It doesn't stop the Westons from getting richer and richer and richer, which seems to be the organizing principle of our food supply system. Um I think there's also kind of a funny irony here in this this approach, which is if we're only kind of buffering or spending money to to absorb inflation, public money, when we're not fixing it, then at some point like there's just no money m to give away to stop this incessant demand for higher and higher prices, and it's kind of turns Margaret Thatcher's idiom on its on its head. It's like in fact, it's this status quo approach to absorbing the inflationary impacts of of this elite which is gonna run out of money, um, which is gonna run out of other other people's money. So now we've now we've got this predatory elite and it feels a little bit like things have just gone too far and there's some sort of tipping point. And then we've got this populist urge to restructure and unrig markets markets that the elite have made monopolistic and competitive, inflationary. And I don't see Mr. Carney and his brand of liberalism or the conservatives with any inclination to tackle it. Uh so I see the under the fold story here as being that perspectives have changed and maybe the momentu has changed, has maybe changed with it. But can I just add like one more little thing? Um perhaps I went too far in suggesting there's a shift from labour left to consumer left. And like it could be that, but I think maybe that might be a mistake to to to the opportunity the opportunity might be to see both perspectives at the same time, to see people as workers as people who create wealth through going out there and working every day, but also people who are getting victimized in the marketplace and and being able to shift between those. Uh that might be a kind of powerful combination.

Nikki Hill 9:34

Yeah, it's interesting. I think you know, concepts that even how much policy changes so quickly these these days, too, and in the past couple of years. I think even just you know, a couple weeks ago when we were or a few episodes ago when we started talking about some of that predatory pricing, and now it's become through a number of politicians, such a hot topic where you know, so I think it's because the public is is more and more concerned and they start to see these ideas and go, wait a second, maybe this is why it I'm spending a hundred dollars for a tiny cart of groceries these days. And and that's like top of mind, as we say, for everybody. So yeah, I think we're watching rapid policy shifts, and and I think it that also starts to move how the public responds and it's interesting times ahead to track. Yeah, if we just think about the course of these discussions.

Tom Parkin 10:21

Yeah, yeah. Well, we'll see how people respond to them in the political sphere and yeah. I don't I don't know. Maybe maybe I'm maybe I've got something there, or maybe I'm just you know engaged in my wishful thinking as as usual, Nikki. But speaking of okay, so speaking of wishful thinking, there are

Nikki: update on the BC Conservative leadership race

Tom Parkin 10:40

I guess five people who have the wishful thought of becoming the BC conservative leader. Is that right? Uh and so this thing is now getting into its final weeks. So they're they're past the membership signup deadline. Uh bring us up to date. Where's that at?

Nikki Hill 10:55

Yeah, I think we were we were due to give our listeners an update on the BC conservative leadership race. We purposely waited until we got through a couple of key deadlines that were April 18th, and then to see where things landed after that. So April 18th was the membership signup deadline for the party. So all the candidates were busy doing that. And then it was also the last installment of a payment, which was a $60,000 fee. So presumably if you have paid your that was one of I think three or four payments they had to make. So pretty big tally when they're all installed. So presumably at this point, if you're one of those five, you've you've made all these payments and you're you're sticking it out until May 30th. And I I think I was referring to these folks as as the the stubborn remainders here. So I don't really anticipate many of them falling away now. They all seem quite dug in. And again, you've you've paid your fees, you've seen the money.

Tom Parkin 11:45

They put their money down. Yeah.

Nikki Hill 11:47

They've done the work. Um, and they started 11 candidates declaring initially. And as they went through each of those steps, you sort of see them narrow down, some dropping out, most of them throwing their votes to a particular candidate who they would thought would stay in the race. And so they start voting on May 9th. So getting pretty close there, but we won't see a result until after May 30th.

Tom Parkin 12:11

May 30th.

Nikki Hill 12:11

But so a couple interesting things in this. So um, you know, the party, again, going back to that April 18th cutoff, they put out a release saying they now have about 42,000 voting members. So that's , you know, an impressive number for a provincial party of any kind. But also given that this is actually a pretty new party still, um, but it's a merger of a couple of different party entities. So, you know, it's still unclear where those memberships would be coming from to understand how the vote may fall out. And they say they in this recent release, they said they had 7,000 members to start with. So that's a pretty big jump, , about 35,000 members there. Although other reports have said about 9,000 to start with, but you know, still quite a big jump. Uh, and that cutoff just happened. So I would think, having run these processes for the NDP side, that there's still steps to go here to figure out if all those 42,000 members are real. Um, there generally parties do verification processes and candidates start to complain about when they see anything that doesn't look legitimate. So, you know, we'll see where the final number of voters gets to in the weeks ahead, I would imagine. Maybe that is the firm number, but certainly not in my experience doing leadership, membership sign-up, tallying and vetting. So we have about five candidates now. We have entrepreneur Erie Fulmer, we have former BC Liberal MLA, and who was also cabinet minister for the previous government, Ian Black, former federal conservative MP Carolyn Finley, commentator Carolyn Elliott, and then current BC Conservative MLA, former BC Liberal BC United MLA, Peter Milibar, who's the only sitting MLA running, and he's in Kamloops Center. So this is the final stage, but there's still quite a bit to go, not just weeks to go, but quite a bit to go. And I think even at the end of this race being done in May, we don't know if this is going to be the main center right rank wing entity that faces the NDP whenever that next election comes, whether it's in 2028 like it's supposed to be, or early like we thought we were going to last week, because the there's so much division and that's very evident in this race because the BC conservatives were put together and this caucus was put together really quickly when BC United folded in in 2024. And so you're you're really seeing this showdown between the BC Liberal, BC United membership, the free enterprise entities in BC, and this really pure BC conservative faction that purposefully formed our party, , from purposely built on principles that they wanted to see advanced. And, you know, for those of us watching out here, there's been an endless amount of popcorn to observe all the public fights and attacks at each at each other. You know, people I think always find NDP races to be quite boring because they're so civil. And this one is certainly the opposite of the stuff.

Tom Parkin 14:58

Yeah, and they're fighting about some pretty stupid things sometimes, I see, too. So I mean to me it seems very like not very important, but I guess it's important in their world somehow, or yeah.

Nikki Hill 15:10

Well, I mean, it's like if we think about those fights too, like in an NDP, last time there was a a a main leadership race here in the BC NDP, for example, was like John Horgan, Adrian Dix, and Mike Farnworth. And I think at some point they'd all been like someone's groomsmen and had worked together on a hill in their 20s. You know, there's like familial longtime relationships here. But I think for a newer party like the BC conservatives, which again is bringing a couple parties together, they don't necessarily have that depth of relationships. So I think it does look differently.

Tom Parkin 15:39

Or Nicky, maybe they're just vicious people.

Nikki Hill 15:44

Well, you know, let's talk a little bit about where some of the issues have been. So I think it has been, and I think we did, we'll see a pivot this week as well. You know, we saw a lot of wedge issues, a lot of that cultural emphasis going in in these last phases. They were trying to sign up members to the party and position themselves. You know, we've had, we're in quite a toxic narrative here in BC around the Declaration Act for the Rights of Indigenous People. I think this race has very much contributed to that in the timing and some of the changes that have been happening in public feelings about reconciliation. So it, you know, that it has been a quite impactful race, I think, on the BC political dialogue for sure. And then we see um, you know, Yuri Fulmer as one candidate here, he's raised eyebrows cutting a deal to unite the right with the embattled and controversial One BC leader Dallas Brody. And so he said that if he this has actually been, you know, quite a point of contention for some of the other candidates, and I get it, um, you know, coming from party politics, where he said he's clear going to clear the path for OneBC candidates to run in five ridings in the next election, unopposed by conservative candidates. So saying, you know, just for context, for those that um, you know, aren't aren't familiar with OneBC, it's not, it's has one member in the legislature right now. In December, it had two, it had official party status. Um, so it's not actually , you know, a fully functioning in the legislature considered a party. So this is an interesting deal. And keeping in mind that Dallas Brody, who's been very prominent in Yuri Falmer's campaign, was only formed 1BC because she was kicked out of the BC conservative caucus by the former leader, John Rustad, because of her residential school denialist views. So for some of these folks, that's not a you know a comfortable fellow traveler, um, for the more center right voters, I would say, and those I talk to. Um, and also, you know, you you have some of the issues that are being raised that just aren't probably top of mind to where voters are right now. We've seen different prominent conservatives and more of that liberal leaning, you know, sort of warning them about digging too far into the culture war here and bringing those wedge issues in that as people they're struggling through affordability issues, they're not thinking necessarily about, you know, trans participation in sports, which is a plank for a couple of them. But I think important to keep in mind too that some of that BC conservative base before this merger of sorts, which wasn't really a formal merger with BC United, does have a lot of convoy supporters, does come from that MAGA entity purposefully, which isn't necessarily where the general public's at, but during a race where they're, you know, trying to get those members to vote for them and and recruit them. But, you know, like this is it's one to watch. The BC conservatives were just a fringe movement with no MLAs just a few years ago. Uh now they're the official opposition, keeping in mind that since they became the official opposition, they've also lost six MLAs, whether they were removed from their caucus, but there's six independent MLAs who were elected with them in 2024, who are no longer sitting with their caucus anymore. So, you know, there's there's a lot going on here, even though we're in the final stretch of this leadership race. Uh while we're recording, they they get one of I think the only so-far debate. Uh they're here for the Canada Strong and Free Conferences in Vancouver. So they are in that debate, all of them. And it'll be one of the only times I think that the both the public and their members are going to be hearing from them. So we'll have to catch folks up on that as well. Um, but I think , you know, we're into some interesting stages of the race.

Tom Parkin 19:25

Now you said that there's 42,000 signed up, and that's up from somewhere around seven to nine thousand.

Nikki Hill 19:32

Seven or nine, yeah.

Tom Parkin 19:33

Uh so quite a good gain. Um what yeah, what's the indication about you know who did best on signups?

Nikki Hill 19:41

Yeah, it's interesting because I think I'm right that only Yuri Fulmer's campaign has put out their numbers on social media. It was saying that they signed up 15,000 plus members, new memberships since January. That has led to some of the other campaigns call them into question. Because if we look at that number, that's almost half of the signups when you depending on what number you're starting with. But we haven't seen, as far as I'm aware, those other campaigns actually say how many they signed up. And to be honest, I think that's a good thing because having been in the BCNDP office for these big leadership races, I can actually I would pretty confidently say I'd be hesitant to even put out that 42,000 member number so early after the signups are closed, because you do end up having to do some sort of vetting, presumably. I I would think, you know, for legalities of things like the leadership race, the party tends to want to be making sure those are all real members. And even if they don't, it's inevitable they're going to get complaints about various signups from the different camps, which then they have to cross-check and do that sort of work. So, you know, it's there's gonna be complaints. Uh, if they don't deal with them, you tend to end up in legal issues around the race. We've already seen one candidate complaining about access to the list and the database. So I'm gonna guess they'll have other complaints that they have to deal with. And it's real, you know. I think one of my favorite 2011 BC Liberal leadership candidate sign-up moments was when a complaint from another candidate that a cat owned by a campaign volunteer for a rival candidate was signed up as a party member. Like this is how this stuff works. It's why you bet the list. Um, so I would think they've got work to do to get to that number and to have some comfort for candidates in the race. And then we have this other dynamic, which again, I don't see how it doesn't meet complaints or probably legal challenges, but it's that 1BC has actually changed their constitution to allow for BC to allow those members, and we don't know how many members OneBC has. Again, it's a small fledgling party, but it has been growing. Um, but to allow them to join the BC conservatives, being part of what some people have described as the plan, then to vote for Yuri Fulmer, and then they get to go back to 1BC after they've canceled it for free. So, you know, you've You've they've done some constitutional amendments here on the OneBC side. And that means though you've got people who are not conservatives, not planning to stay there very visibly, just joining the party to vote for URI form, which again tends to result in complaints, complaints from in leadership candidates. So we'll see, we'll see where we get to. Uh lawyers will be busy, I'm sure. Uh can't imagine with the what we've seen so far on the external debate side with these folks that they're not gonna be litigious in this phase of the campaign. Um I don't think new Democrats are certainly angels on this side, and and I think that there'll be a lot of work on the party side to get these lists in order. That's where we're at.

Tom Parkin 22:40

Okay, well, we got one more month, I guess, and then we find out who's gonna be the person, right?

Nikki Hill 22:48

We will, and then we'll see what happens after that. How many parties we get when the most result is out.

Tom Parkin 22:55

Okay, well, let's take a quick break and we'll be back with Siobhan.

Interview: Siobhan Vipond, Executive Vice-President, Canadian Labour Congress

Nikki Hill 23:10

Welcome to Left East to West Siobhan. Thanks for joining us. Pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me. So you are on the show as we near the CLC convention in Winnipeg starting just a couple weeks on May 11th, and you're coming into it seeking a third term. Before the CLC, you served four terms as the Secretary Treasurer for the Alberta Federation of Labor. Coming out of the International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees, I at C local 210 in Edmonton. We're gonna talk a little bit about that. And you were elected to the CLC for the first time in 2021. A tumultuous time in the world still and in the labour movement with working for fighting for workers and with the pandemic impacts. So as we get started into our conversation today, can you tell us a little bit about what you think since that time, considering where you come from, what you've seen in your role in the labour movement, about what the most significant shifts you've seen as an elected person in the issues that are facing working people right now that the CLC is working on, but also when how you're advocating to government and how you see those issues showing at the convention or in the months and years ahead.

Siobhan Vipond 24:21

Yeah, I mean, thank you. I mean, it's like it's an interesting question to reflect on because when we started, and I can't believe it's been five years, um, but we were coming out of the pandemic, right? So, like, um, or we were kind of in the middle of it. Um, it's also a weird time to move to a new city, is when everybody is not really on the streets. But at that time, right, we were really shifting from like, okay, so we've kind of, you know, many people were like, the pandemic's over. Of course, workers were like, we're in the middle of it. Um, but even the mentality was changing from this like urgent emergency, how do we rapid respond to what does long-term economic transformation look like? Because what the pandemic did highlight is that things were not working, right? That workers were falling behind and people weren't having access to, you know, the rights at work the way they should, right? We know that through health and safety, right? Like I think we were talking about mental health and safety. We were talking about garments needed, like access to, you know, safe workplaces in ways that we hadn't been talking about before. We were also talking about public services in a way that was really, I think, positive. Um, and so getting from that and then moving forward, going, well, how do we not lose the lessons, right? How do we understand that we actually have to invest in healthcare? We have to invest in teaching, and we have to ensure that people have jobs because we also know that there's this economic insecurity that came out of that. And, you know, on one hand, I think it was like, we're gonna bounce back, but we're not bouncing back because the world has really fundamentally changed. Um, and so as unions, we've really seen um, you know, some of it is fundamental, right? Which is people who prioritize profit, prof prioritize, you know, division. That has always existed, but it's now in this new reality. And um, you know, so what we've seen in the labour movement is like, okay, so we have these tra trade wars, we have job losses, we have housing insecurity, um, we have peace and security discussions about um, you know, around the globe, but here at home in ways that, you know, are really touching people every day. And so what we're looking for is how do we counter this right-wing anti-worker agenda? How do we actually get an economic policy that works for people and our families and ensures that we're getting good jobs? And all of this also with a change with AI and a change with how work happens and what kind of work we're valuing. So this is why what you'll see coming up to our convention, and you know, I think a lot of unions are the same. You know, we wanted a strategy for job creation because that's what's important. If people need good work, they need jobs, right? So, what is the industry strategy about that? What does um, you know, building nation-building projects as it pertains to not only the KARICON AB, but also the physical infrastructure? How do we fight the far right and not allow hate to divide us? And really all of that will happen if we can strengthen democracy and our participation in it. And unions are fundamental to that in Canada, but really around the world. Unions are the reason why we can have strong democracies.

Tom Parkin 27:29

That's that's interesting because the the COVID thing really fueled the far right in many ways. And and there you are in in Edmonton at the time, I guess, in the in really the the pit of it. Um and you made at the OFL fighting the far right a real priority. Um and we've seen a network of far right organizations being nurtured by the UCP in Alberta, your home, and and we see them reaching out to Trump and threatening the integrity of our country. We see this network of organizations, the kind of most vicious one I always think of is John Carpe's legal fund, which does a whole bunch of really nasty divisive things, but receives ample funding from somewhere to attack workers' rights, not just in Alberta, but right across Canada. What have you learned from your personal battles with the far right? And what better tools do you think you need, the CLC, the labour movement needs to win the battle? And and and and really, as an Albertan, if the Daniel Smith UCP is defeated, how hard a blow would that be to the far right in Canada?

Siobhan Vipond 28:36

I mean, I think it would be you huge, right? Like, so yeah, like coming from Alberta and um, you know, the assumption about how conservative we are, which is true on the ground, but then also living through 2015 when people were like, that's an impossible that the NDP would ever win an election. But all of us doing work on the ground is like, no, not impossible. It's just that it just has a different baseline in Alberta. And so it kind of gives you the ground to be like, to have these discussions. Because for most people, like, and I think like, you know, I think we love this politics stuff. We're gonna talk about this about left and right and what this means and and look at data. But really, when you're whether you're on the doors or, you know, you're in a workplace and you're talking to someone and hearing their frustration, the majority of people don't define themselves by, well, this is because this is where I see myself on the political spectrum. And if I vote this, I should vote that. And um, and I think that's how we were able to do that groundwork in Alberta. And quite honestly, that really, really plays into how I approach this work, which is um, you know, workers are frustrated. But also what we have is, yeah, we have the UCP, we have these organizations, we have this referendum, but all of those, whether it's organizations, whether it's Daniel Smith, who have made a calculation that it is politically, it's a political winner to bank on taking human rights away, attacking public services, going after teachers, right? Like they are banking that that's a winnable item. And I think what they're finding in Alberta is it isn't so much. Because when you talk to people, yes, some people are like, I am a strong conservative because I'm from Alberta. But then when you talk about the issues, they're also like, we need strong health care. I want a good job. I think unions are important to me. Um, and so you go, well, wait a minute, that doesn't match that political spectrum. So it would be a blow in Alberta, I is a little bit of like where all of this seems to be starting from, right? Like Bill 11 in Alberta about the privatization of healthcare, which is so blatant, right? Like we know the privatization's been happening across the country. We know there's been like this, whether it's like taking our public services, putting them into the not-for-profit sector, whether it's been like taking building projects and not seeing the public investment as a, you know, anything other than like a corporate handout, versus if you tie it to jobs and tie it to infrastructure that is good for people, that is good for our economy. That is good for people. And so, yeah, in Alberta, it would be, it's not just that it would be a blow, but it would also remind people that it is people who have the power and are like, because during what I enjoyed about the discussions that happened during COVID, please, I did not endure the pandemic. But what I, it was like, yeah, let's talk about what our collective means, right? Like it's like, let's talk about what we can do together instead of it being this individualistic because we had to rely on each other. And I think that is healthy. And it's also how we can do well, because you know, the conservatives want to describe any public expenditure as wasting money, throwing away money. Yet we, you know, everybody celebrates as someone crowdsources to get enough money to get a life-saving surgery. Well, in Canada, we came up with a better system. We tax people and we take care of each other. And I thought the discussion changed, that was really positive. And so now when we're talking about fighting the right, it's fighting the hate, fighting the division, and really finding how much we are together. And so let's talk about investing in jobs. And it's not about investing in poor jobs, it's investing in all jobs.

Tom Parkin 32:01

Yeah.

Siobhan Vipond 32:02

Yeah, I think yeah, we'll all agree.

Nikki Hill 32:03

We didn't enjoy the pandemic. I think one of the things that I liked in the bill, if I was supposed to build from that too, is the that early concept of like building back better, right? And it, you know, dropped off the political agenda for a bit. But there was that moment where we were talking about better policy long-term, like learning the lessons. And I think some of this is probably picking up some of those threads as well for policy design. Um, but switching gears a little bit, so you were recently re-elected to the federal executive of Canada's NDP. It was good seeing you in Winnipeg, and congratulations on that. We did a show from the convention after we adjourned and talked about some of the interesting developments, also how labour candidates, labour-focused candidates fared, whether both in leadership or exec, where the movement needs to build. But I think, you know, core to this is the overall next steps in not only building a movement, but sort of rebuild within the NDP as well. So a lot of this, as you just said, is strengthening working class political engagement and combating some of this cynicism and the right-wing extremism. Those are all really urgent things for us to be doing daily. So as you start with this renewed term for the NDP, what do you see the role of the labour movement is in building that strength in the NDP to counter these trends?

Siobhan Vipond 33:21

Yeah, I mean, it's it's a weird thing to start in the negative, but we have we have experienced what happens when we don't have the NDP raising issues in the House, right? And in the common areas, right? And so what we need is a strong NDP so that we can ensure that these issues are being raised. These are workers' issues. And not the way the conservatives are raising our issues, because they may be saying some right words, but they're not actually backing them in votes or policy that help. Um and so for us in the labour movement, my position is to be that bridge, right? Like there's a political partnership or a political relationship, I mean, and then I have this kind of, you know, institutional relationship, but that's to ensure that a party that was started by labour doesn't forget where labour is going and the important issues that we have, which are all the things we've talked about. It's what our convention is. And and it's not, you know, like when you come to our convention, you're gonna hear maybe a lot of policy that sounds similar, and you're gonna hear a lot of, you know, goals that sound similar. And that's not because like we're somehow, you know, just copying. It's actually because workers' goals that are coming to the CLC convention were actually the same goals and asks that went to the NDP convention that you heard while we were there, right? Um, and that is because we're actually working together, and it's two ways to get the same thing. One is parliamentary, one is like raising that. But the labour movement has to be loud in ensuring we're fighting for these issues, and that's how we're gonna help to grow this.

Tom Parkin 34:50

Can I just kind of put push this Nikki's question just another inch along? Um so you're you're here at the leadership level of the NDP from the labour movement, but what about at the grassroots level? What about you know the riding associations and the district labour councils? What do you see about I mean, I have my own observations and I've talked about them from time to time to show that um, especially from Toronto, the Toronto District Labor Council and the riding associations are kind of foreigners to each other because they kind of geographically don't match. If you go to Windsor, or if you go to Hamilton, there's some link up, or that's that's more common, but it's tough to kind of create one fighting force out of two institutions, if you will. Um what do you think the challenges are there? How can how can that be done better, maybe?

Siobhan Vipond 35:41

Yeah, I mean, I guess it's almost like the premise of the question is that it would be better if we were closer together. Um, but maybe there's a little bit more of like we need to let a thousand flowers bloom. Um and I don't say that because we should be in an like in contradiction or we shouldn't be working together, but most EDAs that I go to, and it's a fair few, right? Like, I mean, this is, you know, I whenever I'm somewhere, if there's an election going on, I go check the local election. Like I like to do that work because um, to me, you get to talk to people in ways that you don't otherwise, you know, like all that good stuff about elections. And when you look at the EDAs and you look who's showing up, they are union members. Um, and maybe they're not union members like me, where it's, you know, in a leadership, um, but they're the ones who are the on the EDAs and doing the work. And and part of it, I just think is like, you know, we do a lot of training for folks. And um, in my experience in this job, and as you said at the beginning, it's been eight years at the CLC or at the AFL, I mean, and now I'm five years at the CLC, is that union members and union members who are active in their locals understand democracy at a level that people in private business do not. Because we don't make any decisions without talking to people, right? Like you don't suddenly say, oh, this is a great idea. You're like, oh, I have a great idea. I should bring that to a meeting. I should convince everybody I work with, I should convince everyone. And so when we talk about democracy, that's fundamental, right? Versus like when you work on a like on an EDA with someone who's like an owner of their own business, they have a lot to bring to the table, but they also are like, well, I thought this was a good idea, so I just did it. It's like, , yeah, that's okay, but that's not, you know, that sounds like so I think we need to empower, like, because we did lose like generation or like we lost time with COVID where people weren't practicing all this stuff, right? And so yeah, I do think we have to build up our folks to understand it. I also think we have work as a country to do where democracy is that mean you can discuss and disagree. That doesn't mean that someone's put in danger. It doesn't mean that there's hatred, it doesn't mean that there's doxing. It actually means that that's our democracy and we can disagree. Like we have to, I think we can get back to that. But that means people talking to people, empowering people. Um, and when we do that, because a strong labour movement will help the NDP and a strong NDP helps workers.

Tom Parkin 37:59

Yeah. Well, let's let's talk about just a press done question that I was supposed to ask, which is about which is about the the incredible problem we have actually with with one and a half million Canadian workers without a job right now. Uh and that happening in the context of Donald Trump and his economic cronies, , who even last week were again continuing their threats about you know the 51st states. Uh you know, unemployment makes us weak in that fight. Uh here we are fighting with, you know, 1.5 million Canadians with their hands tied behind their back, then in essence. Uh one of the responses to this crisis that I've noticed has been kind of a renewed thinking within Canadian unions about strategies to create value-adding industries and protect supply chains from economic attack, that whole line of thinking. Uh what do you how do you think we can move that kind of you know, renewed thinking from debate, from discussion between a few people who are, you know, economists and researchers and that sort of thing in the labour movement, to being a real practical roadmap that, you know, everyday Canadians can look at and say, you know, that makes sense because it'll create jobs and that'll make a stronger Canada, and that's what we need right now. How how do you make that transition?

Siobhan Vipond 39:19

Yeah, I mean, it's a great question. I always like this was again something during the pandemic, was like when I learned that we couldn't make vaccines in Canada. Like, because there's certain things that I just assumed. I'm like, what do you mean we can't make those in Canada? Right. And then you you realize what what all of this time has meant about jobs leaving. Now we have this, you know, this trade war that's been put on us, and we're very much learning where things are made, or how many times something crosses the border to get made. And so what is the planning around that? Now, to have um, you know, like the current government, right, wants to talk about nation building, wants to talk about that powerful like thing that we could be by investing. Um, and we can do it. So for us to talk to workers about, because it is about jobs, right? Like it is a very privileged place to be when you have a job and you know you're gonna have a job tomorrow. Um, because yeah, it's over a million workers, it's over a million families. There's very few families where you can get away with one worker being totally out of work, right? And it's stressful and it's all of that. So as a labour movement, we look to not just our convention, but it's the work in between. And that is talking to folks, looking at policy. It's like, you know, what is an investment in the care economy look like, right? Like that's 20% of our economy, or sorry, of our, you know, the when we look at the jobs in this country. And so let's invest in that. When we look at infrastructure, um, and it these are big numbers, right? And there's this kind of thought that it's like, well, then it's undoable. And it's like, no, we're gonna shift that. So that's why we are like we lobby. We have people who are active. We have unions going in and going, let's talk about industrial strategy with us at the table, right? We know like that in the, you know, the sector of, you know, vehicle building in this country, that there is big changes happening right now. That has to happen with the unions and the workers at the table because that's what we're looking forward. And so you will see a lot of those kind of policies happening at our convention, um, that discussion, and then the mobilization behind that, right? So you heard us talking about workers together, um, where we had thousands of conversations across this country, worker-to-worker conversations. We had like town hall site type conversations, um, and then also like social media, et cetera, kind of pushing people. It was at our meetings, but all of that, so people felt empowered that it's like it's not just saying I need a job, it's saying actually we could have jobs in our communities. And, you know, like we have small communities here that are struggling that are like, if one industry leaves, it really can be like detrimental to a community. So yeah, that's what we're doing is we're pushing at government parliament, but we're also activating our members to be more active because at the end of the day, parliamentarians work for us. And if they have the power of the pen to change what is happening and where we're putting investments, it better be worker-centered and our workers can push that.

Nikki Hill 42:01

Yeah. I feel like we're overdoing our pandemic chat, but I was just thinking too that one of the things I learned so much during public policy in the pandemic is just where that where that ability to input into policy comes from people who are on the ground. So it's, you know, when you talk about communities and we have them, you know, here in BC, which have had significant industry shifts, but it it really is like workers on the ground who can tell policymakers and government what the real impacts are in that community and what they need moving ahead. You can't just get that from being elected. So I think there's such a huge role there that we've learned about data points in as well in advocacy. Sort of building in that too. So, you know, one of the one of the key points of that has I think not just through the industrial strategy, maybe not as centered right now on the industrial strategy. Um so one of the the key policy pieces as well that's been advanced is a just transition. How does that factor into a worker-centered industrial strategy?

Siobhan Vipond 42:57

Well, I mean, just transition is a worker phrase, right? Like this is something that was pushed at the ILO. And and I only say that only because to me, that is so important that we don't forget that that was what just meant is that workers didn't get left behind. That and there's like, it is so very important, right? Like as we move as a globe, um, whether we want to move that way, um, say like with policy, um, and sometimes this happens with government where they're hesitant to do things, industry is going there, right? Like that's where industry is going. They're they're looking at um, like maybe not tomorrow, but they are looking at the sundowning of certain types of work. Um, and also companies are looking at how to invest in greening the line of work, right? Like it's not just about we have to, you know, do this to this one section. It's about the entire supply chain. It's about all of that work. And so I think we have to have grown up discussions about it, right? Like this can't be a like it can't be oversimplified and thinking that people don't want it. And it's just like, no, people want their trucks, right? Like being from Alberta, that always seems to be the thing. It's like, yeah, but people can have. Their trucks. But like we also could have public transportation so you didn't need to drive it all the time. You know, like, and maybe we could also have affordable housing so people aren't driving an hour and a half because their job is in an area they can't afford to live, right? Like it is so there's so many solutions that can happen. Um, and of course, our concern always is that those solutions have to be centering, not profit, not the bottom line, they have to be centering people and moving forward. And that includes the planet. Um so there are good jobs that exist, and it is pretty disrespectful when a politician just says, oh, don't worry, it's gone. Because when an entire community has been, you know, like kind of functioning and thriving around one industry type job, then we need to like actually listen to the community and have solutions to that. That don't mean move to the big city because that's like and buy a tech, you know, buy a buy an electric vehicle. It's like that doesn't make any sense. Um, and so that's why we have to be at the center of those discussions. We are globally, right? Whether it's at the ILO, we have global, but in Canada, that's why it's so important to have, quite honestly, governments that is thinking we're gonna listen to workers too.

Tom Parkin 45:11

And and I I don't know if we're allowed to talk about Wayne Gretzky anymore since his Donald Trump friendship. Uh, but at the risk about that anyway, I mean he did, you know, one of the things I've got to do.

Nikki Hill 45:20

First time in the show we talked about Wayne Gretzky.

Tom Parkin 45:23

You guys in the Alberta labour movement have talked about sometimes is you know, you gotta you gotta go to where the puck's gonna be and and try and get there so that it's not just a big shutdown and and the kind of economic jobs carnage that happens when people don't have a plan about where the economy's gonna be well, 15 or even 50 years out.

Siobhan Vipond 45:47

Yeah. I was feeling like policy contemplates that, yeah.

Nikki Hill 45:51

Yeah, and it's repetitive. I mean, my family was all commercial fishing, right? You know, you sort of look back at in these patterns of industries collapsing and and think that at some point we could think ahead a bit on policy design.

Tom Parkin 46:03

It's it's a it's a it's a good idea. It should be tried, Nikki. Um I'm in favor of that. I'm also in favor, I'm also in favor of a little bit of exploring a vision here a little bit. Um one of the foundations of the Nordic social democracies, like Sweden and Denmark and Norway, , is an organized labour market with union membership rates 80% or above, , whereas in Canada we're around 30% mark or so. Uh but it's not just higher membership, it's also a different structure of the way that employers and workers bargain. Collective agreements in Canada usually apply to a single workplace of a single employer. But union contracts in the Nordics and the social democracies cover multiple employers and set standards across whole sectors. Now, this is kind of a a problem of getting from point A to point B in some ways, um, assuming that getting to point B is where we want to be. But what is the thinking about sectoral bargaining in the Canadian labour movement these days? And if unions want broader sectoral bargaining, how does a central labour body like the CLC help facilitate that? Um both in terms of its internal capacities, its discussion, it's good the fact that it's a convener, um, but also that it's an advocate for labour legislation changes.

Siobhan Vipond 47:24

Yeah. No, I mean, and you put I mean that's exactly our purpose. And so there are discussions around sectoral bargaining, because like even the 30%, let's be really honest, the reason why it sounds like, I mean, outside of the Nordic countries, 30% sounds not bad, but it's really skewed by what's public sector unionization, which is really high, and and declining private sector unionization. And you're right, one of the barriers of it and is like, you know, say one coffee shop, you have to organize, yeah, and yet the coffee shop five minutes away that's looks exactly the same as a consumer, looks exactly the same as a management, you have to organize separately. And even if the employees are working at both, right? Like it's like even crazier. And so we are having those discussions. Um, the other thing, you know, being Canadian that we all should not forget is that what is unique to us to many jurisdictions that we meet with is we have 13 labour jurisdictions in Canada. We do not the US, it's federal for the most part. Um, and and these countries, and so that also causes a challenge, which is are we going to be able to get the same from say in a in a government led by Web Canoe that we're gonna get in from Danielle Smith? And I I would argue probably not. And so we are talking about sectoral bargaining as an access to unionization, because the goal is unionization. And the reason why the goal is that is because there has to be empowering workers to have be part of that, like the social dialogue is the, you know, the but people have to be a part of that where they have a say and they have a right within how their work is functioning. Um and so it's it's different because in in some ways, how do how do we look at like which sectors do we do first? Because people are scared of new legislation and it would be almost very new, except for we have some examples in Canada of quasi-u sectoral kind of models.

Tom Parkin 49:11

And in a way though the the the the industry used to work for.

Siobhan Vipond 49:15

Absolutely. Yeah, like in our industry, it's like, yeah, 100%, especially like in the and the film side, um, and and working with multiple unions, multiple employers, and um, you know, figuring that out. And so, and there's there's building trades, there's there's other examples. And so we are building on that and we are talking about it as unions. Um, and and you're right, that's what we do is we convene and then we make sure that the policy makes sense. Because when you're introducing something that is bold, which is I think what most people would describe this, um, it's harder because like there's a lot of examples right now at our federal government, lots of our provincial governments, of trying to introduce legislation that keeps unions out, that takes away, you know, like whether it's 107, whether it's the, you know, in terms of the right to strike that we have, whether it is, you know, sending postal workers back to work, you know, like all of these things are lining up to say there is big pressures, right? There's some companies that spend millions of dollars against unions. So we are having the country the conversation around sectoral bargaining with the door is open. We're looking at it. BC is a little bit further ahead because their provincial government is having these discussions and what it looks like. Um and but yeah, it is definitely because the goal is that more people have access to unions. Um and right now, one of the this is a huge barrier.

unknown 50:33

Yeah.

Nikki Hill 50:34

And actually, we're gonna talk a little bit after after you're on the show about even in BC with some of those changes. We just recently saw a private member's bill in the legislature from the BC conservatives on community benefit agreements and and project labour agreements and and taking out, you know, some of those much needed local jobs for skilled trades being part of the conversation unusually at this time. So still happening here.

Siobhan Vipond 51:03

Um they have there's a because as many ideas as we have in through pooflings, they have so many ideas of how to like just trying to undermine unions. Absolutely. Yeah.

Tom Parkin 51:13

Yeah, but they're pro-worker bad ideas. I mean, that's that's what they'll tell you. And that's yeah, I think that was the debate.

Nikki Hill 51:19

Yeah, that was the debate. That was the talking point. Yeah. Exactly. So just under as we wrap up a bit here, we're gonna zoom right out into some of the global movement. And you've touched on it a bit, but I think um, you know, what now more than ever, I would think progressives are are looking at that need for global coordination and and countering right-wing extremism. And I think in in many ways, the Trump administration is actually uniting progressives in new ways and seeing the necessity of some of these global movements. We saw, you know, 3,000 recent participants from over 100 organizations convening in Barcelona for the launch of the global progressive mobilization. And this is, of course, aimed at strengthening international cooperation amongst left-leaning parties and activists. So, what role does the Canadian labour movement play in this type of global mobilization as it doesn't just start? It's almost like it's reigniting with a real focus here of necessity.

Siobhan Vipond 52:18

Yeah, um, you know, like we are part of many international bodies, um, including the ITUC, which is the Internal Trade Union Confederation. Um, and , you know, and that represents about 90 million workers globally. Um, and you know, and the biggest campaign we have right now is about democracy. And um, and it's not unique, right? Because this is what's happening. And actually being from Alberta, this is what people would be like, the union movement gets along so well here. And it's like, no, it's like siblings, right? Like you fight with your sibling until your parents come again. And then you're like, well, no, now we're gonna fight you, right? And so like this happens with Trump and happened. It's like, yeah, we're united because do you know how bad this can be? Um and and I think globally it's like we're paying attention and you know, making light of it, but it's also it's absolutely scary, right? Like the security and peace around this globe is is under threat. Rights are under threat. Like it is very serious. Um, and so, but that said, yes, the union movements are coming together, and you know, our asks can be pages and pages, like our declaration of like this is what we need to do. Um, and we have some governments that are helpful, but you know, there is this global pressure. Um, you know, we were in March, I get to go with global union movement for with women to the can the UN, right, for the Commission on the Status of Women. And the discussions totally change there, right? Like, yeah, this is a document declaring how do we make you know life better for um, you know, women and gender diversity. And and the US is fighting because the word gender shouldn't be in any of the documents, right? Like it's like, what are you talking about? Um and it is a real threat. Um and it is at the basis about unionization and absolutely different countries working with governments to get them in. And we're seeing wins, right? Like those are those are everybody's wins when we see countries that can get a progressive voice in place, because when you're at the UN, the more voices that you have, it matters. The ILO, which is really, really important to unions being able to push that. Yeah, maybe it doesn't feel like day-to-day it helps, but in terms of the policy work we do, it is so integral. Um, and then that rolls down to what it means in the workplace, right? Like that's why we're talking right now in Canada about the world of work, safety, like is like with no harassment and violence, is because the ILO, we were able to win that win. So all of this is connected. And to say that we are part of that, we think it's really important to be part of that because we have lessons to win. But also we're a country that there's we have a global reputation that we're fine. But like even a government that globally had a really good reputation of what it was doing for workers and people and telling us how lucky we are, is like, you know how many times they've used 107 in the last three years to put workers back to work and to take their rights away, right? So like things, things, you know, but I also think we can chew g and walk at the same time. So we can say, yes, you know what, pharmacare, that was a good start. It was done with the, you know, the NDP and the liberals doing it, that was good, but 107 is still bad. Um, and so we're we're gonna keep pushing that. We have to be part of this global discussion because the threat is too big and it's too scary for people.

Tom Parkin 55:25

Well, Savon, thank you so much for joining us and taking us through some, you know, from from global affairs to what's going on in local workplaces. It's a it's a huge challenge that, you know, I think that we're up against in this Trump era and trying to figure out how we can how we can win it. Uh in fact in fact how how we can kind of use this moment to s to strengthen and unify our movement. And I think we're seeing a little bit of that. Um I don't want to be Pollyanna, but you know, when I see that what what happened in Barcelona and the the leaders, you know, state leaders, prime ministers and presidents from around the country who are progressive people talking about a different path, um, it really does, you know. I think it's it shows we we had there's a path, and we we just gotta do the work. So thanks for coming and talk to us about your role in that. Yeah.

Siobhan Vipond 56:21

Oh, hey, my pleasure. It's a really good story. It's a really good chat to have. You caught me on a chatty Friday. Um, and so I'm so happy to be talking to you about this. But it is it's it's such a pleasure to think about it. And yeah, be Pollyanna is is actually that's that's good advice, right? We can do this if we do it together. You can steal it for a slogan for convention if you want.

Tom Parkin 56:42

I don't recommend it, but good luck.

Siobhan Vipond 56:46

I'm a trade unionist from Alberta. I've got a bit of optimism in me. Yes, yes.

Nikki Hill 56:53

Thanks, Siobhan. Thank you so much. Great interview with Siobhan Vipond, the CLC executive vice president. Tom, how did you feel about some of those topics we got into today?

Tom Parkin 57:06

Um, you know, some of them were pretty weighty, and Siobhan was, you know, you know, right there, like, yeah, this is the stuff we got to talk about. So I found that kind of invigorating, you know, , whether it was talking about fighting the far right or or or or you know working with international labour movements or you know the structure of the labour movement, and you know, she's got a lot on the go and and she was, you know, she I it's a big job. It's a big job that the whole crew of them has got, and I hope they have a good convention. And I am really keen to see how these pieces get treated and and where that points the Canadian labour movement after what is it? May 15th, I guess will be the closing of their convention, something 15th or 14th.

Nikki Hill 57:56

Yeah, they they head back to Winnipeg, we don't. Um we just we're there. Um no, and I think you know, always a good reminder, especially when we're talking on shows like this about issues that are facing working people, is that reminder being on the door and that you know voters in the public don't think about that left-right categorization. They're thinking about their families and jobs and food and gas prices, right? So I think you know, someone like Siobhan who's talking to people, where they're at, what's going on in their daily lives, is always important when we're having these big policy discussions.

Tom Parkin 58:26

Yeah, that that is such a such a lesson that you learn. Um it what you know, like we both kind of came up through organizing, and you go out on somebody's doorstep, , your canvaser goes out in the doorstep and talks to people. It's it it literally is the job to change people's minds and approach them from where they are at and do some listening and try and figure out where people are at rather than tell them. That's so it's that's heartening to hear too, that she likes to do that part of the job, which is hard to be in, you know, hard to be in touch if you're not that kind of person.

Nikki Hill 59:03

Yeah, I feel like when Shadon's in town, you gotta go canvas with her if you want to see her. So that's you know, good leadership right there.

Tom Parkin 59:11

All right, all right, cool.

Nikki Hill 59:12

All right, well, wrapping up the show.

Tom Parkin 59:15

Yeah, well, we're gonna start we're still gonna do love it or heave it, but we're just gonna take a break first.

Nikki: BC Conservatives attack community benefits and skilled trades

Tom Parkin 59:30

Before we wrap up, we've come to that part of the show we call Love It or Heave It about something you love and want to keep, or something you'd like to heave and forever forget. What do you got this week, Nikki?

Nikki Hill 59:41

I think it's a mix. I'm not sure I've categorized it yet. Um, but one of our earliest interviews was with Brynn Bourke, who's executive director at the BC Building Trades, and we talked in that interview about how skilled trade shouldn't be a partisan issue that is impacted by politics or elections. Uh, since that interview, the BC Building Trades and the labour ,movement as whole in BC found themselves having to campaign against a private members bill introduced by a BC conservative MLA that was called the Public Sector Construction Projects Procurement Act. And that would have required what they were calling labour neutral procurement. So labour neutral on all public sector construction projects in BC, prohibiting government and crown corporations from issuing calls for construction that require building trades, union-only labour, or mandate than contract contractors and enter into a specific collective agreement as a condition of bidding. So I think you know, there was a big fight here to protect the community benefit and project labour agreements that have been put together in BC since 2017 for major projects. And I think it goes back to some of our discussions. So I think, you know, I love that it was defeated in the legislature. Um I and I think we have to heave, as we did, you know, a couple months ago when we talked to Bryn, this concept that having skilled unionized labour is something that is in impacted by political wins. Because, you know, we're talking about having, we actually have really seen changes with these agreements into getting more women and equity seeking groups into major construction projects, into the skilled trades, which is critical because, you know, as we talked about then, everywhere we go, we're talking major projects, we're talking building, and we need those skilled workers because we don't have enough. So it is a curious fact that the the BC conservatives, you know, put the energy into bringing this private members' bill at this time where we're still short on skilled trades, and we need those workers, and we need them to come from British Columbians having great locally local jobs in their communities. So there's our love and maybe a heave at the same time.

Tom Parkin 1:01:51

Yeah, it's funny they want to keep pushing on this. I mean, it's just it's economically disruptive. But it seems as well it it just it pushes the trades away. Um and it as far you know, for as an Ontarian, where where I see conservatives or the fought Ford has in the past, Doug Ford has in the past, be able to attract a segment of the labour movement. It's been the trades because he's offered them lots and lots of money to do exactly what the conservatives in BC are saying they want to take away. Um, the community benefits and the skills training programs.

Nikki Hill 1:02:22

Totally.

Tom Parkin 1:02:22

It's like they're taking a take in a constituency and telling them to screw off.

Nikki Hill 1:02:27

Yeah. Yeah. And we've seen it be you know, we as we talked about, it's it's been detrimental to actually building to have removed some of those skilled trades programs. So here we are. And especially from a moderate BC conservative who I I generally find to be you know quite reasonable on these issues and in touch with what's happening in communities. So it has been an interesting dynamic to watch.

Speaker 2 1:02:46

Yeah. Okay.

Tom: heaving Danielle Smith for again clearing the way for separatists

Nikki Hill 1:02:47

Okay, Tom, what are you loving or heaving this week?

Tom Parkin 1:02:50

Uh well, I'm heaving Daniel Smith for once again using her UCP majority to clear the way for Alberta separatists. Last spring, UCP, her UCP majority cleared the way for them by amending the Citizens Initiative Act to drop its petition threshold for triggering a referendu from about 600,000 signatures to about 177,000 signatures. Then last December, when a court ruled a separatism referendum question wasn't even in the scope, within the scope of that act, she again used her UCP majority to clear their way, quickly passing amendments to put it in scope. Uh now the separatists who have been coordinating with the Trump White House on this project, remember, say that they've met Smith's lower petition threshold and they want their question on the ballot. But a court this month ruled their question can't go on a ballot until there is legal clarity about consultations needed with Indigenous nations about how this works with the treaties that underline the creation of Canada. So Smith last week again, again cleared the way for the separatists, saying she's willing to put separatism on the ballot herself. And the question she wants to put, she says she may put on the on the ballot is from a petition that got over 400,000 signatures from the Canada Forever Group, which asked the legislature, the legislature to affirm Alberta in Canada. That is, they asked Daniel Smith and her UCP to take a stand, not to take a pass. But she won't put that question to the legislature. Instead, she will use their petition wording in a way exactly opposite to why those 400,000 people signed it to once again clear the way for separatists. So I am not just heaving this referendu because Smith Smith will continue this psychodrama at all costs.

Nikki Hill 1:04:53

Yeah.

Tom Parkin 1:04:53

Because her clearing the way for separatists is the price she must pay. She must pay to them so that they will let her continue in power. And no referendu result, win or lose, is going to change that dynamic. So the only way to end this psychodrama is for voters to to give the heave to Daniel Smith and her UCP, an elected government that is not dependent on separatists. And that is a heave I am 100% in support of.

Nikki Hill 1:05:26

Yeah, I think that's a a good heave for most Canadians given the the impact that we're seeing here and some of these external and and global forces that are actually interfering in our democracy and our and Canada. So yeah, it is pretty scary.

Tom Parkin 1:05:41

Yes. We've got a lot of fake information floating around there coming from foreign countries. We got this separatism movement that's meeting with Donald Trump, and in the context of all of that, we're we're supposed to be trying to negotiate a deal with him while obviously people are screwing with us. Um I don't know how to put that more. Delicately or without being not truthful about it. So this is partly, you know, I I I I just put the Alberta separatists in a different camp, honestly, than the Quebec ones, because they're coordinating with an outside force.

Nikki Hill 1:06:15

Yeah.

Tom Parkin 1:06:15

Uh a a different country against our country.

Nikki Hill 1:06:18

Yeah.

Tom Parkin 1:06:18

So that's not just that's not just separatism about choosing to go independent. Anyway, um, that is our show for this week. But we're gonna be back again next Monday with Dave McGrane, historian and host of the podcast Social Democrats of the North. We're gonna probe into some of the big arcs of Canadian history and the labour social democratic movement. So, looking forward to that conversation. Have a great week, Nikki.

Nikki Hill 1:06:45

Thanks, Tom. See you soon.

Tom Parkin 1:06:47

Okay, take care.

Doug Hamilton 1:06:55

Thanks for joining Left East to West with hosts Nikki Hill and Tom Parkin. We'd love to hear your comments, ratings, follows, and shares. It helps people find us. To become a Left East to West community member and to help us reach even more Canadians, subscribe using the link in the show notes. You can watch us on YouTube or listen wherever you get your favorite podcasts. Just search for Left East to West and subscribe. I'm Doug Hamilton signing off for Left East to West. We'll see you next week.