Canada's water, Trump and intensifying demands

Coree Tull, chair of the the BC Watershed Security Coalition, explores the challenges facing Canadian watersheds in our Feature Interview. Canada's watersheds face intensifying demands from industry, including new data centres, while Donald Trump makes unsettling comments about US desires for Canadian water.

Coree believes that to protect jobs and the natural water so central to Canadian identity, Canada needs to think of watersheds as key infrastructure and give them active monitoring and management plans to maintain them.

This Week Below the Fold looks at a couple important new stories that didn't make national headlines:

• Tom checks in with Farouk Karim, Quebec political analyst, about polling shifts after the CAQ and Quebec Liberals picked new leaders and Quebec Solidaire put a focus on affordability
• Nikki takes a look at how Canadians' data security concerns are showing up in responses to the Canada census and the BC Conservatives' leadership race

Love It Or Heave It is about something you love and want to keep, or something you'd like to heave and forever forget. This week:

• Tom loves that he called it right three months ago when he predicted the Ontario Liberal Party old guard would try to defeat Nate Erskine-Smith by any means necessary
• And Nikki is also loving the BC Conservatives claim of 42,000 members doesn't appear to be true, something she predicted a few shows ago

Transcript

Welcome

Nikki Hill 0:24

Welcome to Left East to West with me, Nikki Hill.

Tom Parkin 0:28

And meet Tom Parkin. And apparently, Nikki, this is the week that we uh the theme of the show is I told you so. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, you you have been proven very right about uh the um the the vetting fiasco in well fiasco may be too harsh, but anyway with the BC Conservative. More more neutral. And uh you talked about that a few weeks ago that uh you anticipated it might go a little off the rails because that's what these kind of things do.

Nikki Hill 0:59

Yeah.

Tom Parkin 1:00

Um and I I got a story as well about you know, here in Ontario, um I'm it was way back when when I talked about the Liberal Party's gonna haz it out for Nate Erskine Smith. They're gonna try and do him in at this nomination meeting, make sure he can never become the leader of the Ontario Liberals. I was right on that one. So we are the right team.

Nikki Hill 1:18

So uh yeah, we'll do a little uh hot tub time machine and go back to when we projected a few weeks ago on different issues and and how that's playing out.

Tom Parkin 1:29

Yeah. Well, anyway, it's good to be right once in a while.

Nikki Hill 1:34

Let's I'm yeah, it won't happen every time.

Tom Parkin 1:36

No, it won't, but you you gotta speak up when you when you did. Okay, so we um we got some some good things to cover today, right? But also you want to just do a mention of the big event in Winnipeg.

Nikki Hill 1:51

Yeah, it's been it's been a busy week. Uh and so there was a big week for the Canadian labor movement, uh, the Canadian Labor Congress Convention in Winnipeg. We had executive vice president who was re-elected, Siobhan Vipon, join us a few weeks ago talking about the convention. If you want to catch up with that show and what was the focus there for the labor movement. But today we have a special guest joining us, Corey Tull, who uh chairs the BC Watershed Security Coalition, is the director of government relations and engagement with the BC Freshwater Legacy Initiative and a steering committee member for Working for Watersheds initiatives. We're gonna talk a little bit about water in the sense about what many people don't think about it in, which is trade and economics and jobs. Uh so interesting conversation ahead. But first we're going to start with this week below the fold, taking a look at a couple of important stories that didn't make national headlines, and maybe where Tom and I in a few weeks get to say we were right on something again. We'll see.

Tom Parkin 2:49

Okay, it happens. It happens occasionally. Maybe twice.

Nikki Hill 2:52

It was not jinx it though.

Update on shifts in Quebec, with Farouk Karim

Nikki Hill 3:07

Tom, you have a special interview for us today, so over to you to tell us more.

Tom Parkin 3:12

Yeah, Nikki, over the last mm mm past few months, there's been a lot of movement in Quebec political politics, uh, provincial politics, uh almost all of it below the fold, except in Quebec. Uh, it certainly looks like a change election is coming. So I connected with Quebec political analyst Farouk Harim to bring us up to date. And uh so we're gonna just c go to that interview, uh which I had with him yesterday. Farouk, welcome back to Left East to West. Thank you for having me. Oh Farouk, we have two new leaders on the scene. One, uh new liberal leader, Charles Millard, and the new CAQ leader and premier, Christine Fouchette, uh, helping to get their parties closer to Paul Saint-Pierre's Poland's PQ. Or how is that how is the change affecting the polling?

Farouk Karim 4:03

Yeah, the tectonic plate are shifted in Quebec since the change of leadership. Both the liberals and now the CEQ have new leaders. The CAQ had Francois Legault as premier for the last eight years. Very, very unpopular. Think of end of the regime of Trudeau. Same thing. Uh, low numbers, low personal numbers. So the change for the CAQ, they're hoping uh a Carney effect. Let's start with the liberals, because Charles Millard has been uh uh in uh at the leadership for the last three months. He has successfully brought back the liberals in contentions, they're basically tied overall with the Parti Québécois right now. Now, in Quebec, you have to be careful because the overall numbers don't say the whole story. You have to look beyond the overall numbers and you have to look at the francophone numbers. In that sense, the Parti québécois is still ahead by 20 points, which puts them in a position to power. Now, they have brought they have been uh uh less popular than the last two years. Think of Pierre Poilièvre. For two years, he was ahead by 20 points. That was Paul Saint-Pierre Plamondon. But now, with the new leadership, both for the liberals and for the CEQ, that race is tightened, but among Francophones, the PQ is still ahead. And so both Charles Milliard and Christine Frechet have to do a lot of work among that electorate.

Tom Parkin 5:33

Yeah, Quebec Solidaire had its convention last weekend and seems focused on affordability issues, if I read the news right. Uh, is the PQ their competitor? Is that who they're changing, chasing for votes? Uh, and how does their affordability focus, if I've got that right, contrast with where the PQ is is focused?

Farouk Karim 5:53

Yeah, Quebec Solidaire has caught what I call the Mamdani fever, right? So every Progressive Party, I think, in North America, uh has seen the success of the mayor of New York's uh city. And so Quebec Solidar basically took the same platform, uh rent freeze to inflation, uh wealth tax, and a public uh uh grocery store coming up in Quebec. Now, that sounds familiar with the federal NDP and other jurisdictions in Canada that are exploring the same aspect. So that's good for Quebec Solidaire because affordability, like anywhere else in the country, is the first issue for Quebecers. Now, contrast that with the Pazi Québécois, the Patzi Québécois talks about affordability, but it's all under the umbrella of sovereignty and the referendum coming up. So the problem for the Pax Québécois is that their number one reason, raison d'être, is not that popular. And they're gonna have to run on that because that's what the leader said. Quebec Solidaire has an opportunity to talk about the real issues that Quebecers feel. It's difficult for Quebec Solidaire, but they they would they would be able to maintain what they have and possibly maybe win here and there, but first maintaining what they have.

Tom Parkin 7:05

And what about our friend Alexandre Balloris, who's uh looking for a nomination? How does that fit?

Farouk Karim 7:10

Yeah, I think that's gonna be a welcome uh new addition for Quebec Solidaire, who has been struggling, let's be honest, since the last uh general election. So, new new uh voice, Mr. Boulris is popular in Quebec, he's known, and he's a media savvy, uh fabulous communicate communicator. And so he brings experience needed to Quebec Solidaire. So I think that's gonna be a plus. He's likely gonna uh win his uh his uh uh his um uh nomination. So he he's in a really safe riding. So look for Bullris to be an MA next fall.

Tom Parkin 7:44

Okay, and finally, Farouk, what about the Quebec conservatives? Uh they don't have any seats, but they're polling. Uh they have numbers. Um, are they likely to win seats in this upcoming election in October, or are they just a spoiler for somebody else? And uh who might they be a spoiler for then?

Farouk Karim 8:00

They're gonna play both roles. So they will, well, I'm I'm not gonna predict, but they'll likely will win seats in the Quebec City area, South Shore and North Shore. Why? That's where the conservative uh part of Quebec is mostly. That's where the conservative, the federal conservative party wins his seats in Quebec. So Eric Duhem, the leader of the Conservative Party of Quebec, is media savvy. He's a very he's a former political staffer, so he's a very, very agile strategist. So look for him to gain those seats. He doesn't have seats right now in the part in the uh National Assembly right now, but one independent MA became a conservative uh MA. So now he has access to the parliament with the press conferences and all of that. So look for him to be more present. He wants to win between uh about 10 seats in that area to uh make his entrance at the National Assembly.

Tom Parkin 8:53

Okay. Well, thanks for this update. It's been incredibly quick, but also incredibly uh refreshing and insightful. Thanks so much. Uh and that election is uh October the 5th, that's right. All right, five months away. All right, okay. Well, we'll keep in touch.

Data security fears in the Census and BC Conservative race

Tom Parkin 9:08

Thanks so much. Thank you. Go have to go. Okay, so Nikki, you've been watching some interesting threads which uh affect pretty much all of us, how our data is being used, and uh who we actually trust with it.

Nikki Hill 9:26

Yeah, I think this is an interesting one to watch, and it seems to be hitting a bit of a peak right now. There have been two stories in the news this week that jumped out to me that have connections in different ways. So one on the national census, which we've all been getting our reminders to do the national census and do our duty. And the other is actually about the BC conservative race here in BC, which I'm pretty sure last week I said I wasn't going to talk about again until it was done on May 30th. But this are, you know, some related threads here that which I think are of of interest, but maybe also speak to some demographics of voters as well. So both are though really centered on the same question. How comfortable are Canadians about sharing personal information? And we have seen some other stories lately that I think, you know, make people nervous about where their data is going. But we're seeing um, you know, a relationship here as well with both voting and the census. So, census-wise, you know, every five years, Canadians have to fill it out. Hopefully you have done yours now so you can avoid the reminders. It's just asking about household, demographic information. And I think what we also really need to center here is it's about policy decisions that government can make understanding what's happening in communities, what population changes are happening, jobs and so on, so they can look at policy. And and I I think one of the things that always makes me laugh during census time is if you live in a world of of policy nerds, which apparently I do, the number of people like my husband and I who were disappointed just to get the short form versus all of those politicos who are bragging about their long form online. And so, you know, tough times, depending if you like to hand over your data to the government or not, I guess. But something I'm really been seeing, and news has been carrying this to some degree as well, is people with a more noticeable pushback this time. And that's there have been people who are just refusing to fill out their census, posting online, showing that they're you know ripping up their forms, which I do believe there are fines for, writing insults on them meant for government or just sending them back blank. So I think it it will be interesting to think to see at the end of the day if this was a trend or did have some impact, or if it's just some people, you know, making the news because of their own opinions or because we have more TikTok videos when people do such things. Um, but I also do think, you know, one of the things that made me think about the relationship here into something like the BC Conservative Party race is the fact that on the news the other day, I was watching a couple of interviews where the people were specifically, you know, writing F the Liberals on their census and sending it back and showing it on the news. So it made me think a little bit about some of that convoy demographic, those folks who were, you know, thinking a little bit more about the individual freedom movement and how that relates in to some of this data challenge as well. I think the other thing, though, is your big challenge here for your community with people who consciously don't do it or send it big blank or with profanity on it, whatever your choice is there, is it actually does impact your community because this is how government figures out where schools need to be built, hospitals, how much funding you need for different issues. So if you get undercounted, you actually could get less funds. Uh so if we're angry at government, you're you're kind of messing with your own community here by not doing it. And if you look at the big, the big picture here. And the other thing I think we're seeing more on the census is misinformation. So we're seeing a little bit more from Stats Canada, even from members of parliament as well, just trying to address the fact that there is more misinformation out there, reassure people that the data is protected, that it's confidential, it's not being shared with other agencies. But I think, again, that's probably not surprising. We saw some, you know, big data breaches recently with the Alberta separatists. We're seeing these concerns, I think, sort of all feed together. But the second story that's interesting, where we're also seeing a lot of pushback around data use and collection is that BC conservative leadership race. So we're in the final couple of weeks here of voting. Voting started last week, and um, members do have to go through a pretty intensive verification process. So, which, you know, makes sense. I think you want to make sure that people who are party members are verified in different ways. I think political parties have that obligation. Some people have gone as far as to call for, you know, the Elections Canada or elections BC or your own provincial elections entity to actually rule over leadership races. And I think, you know, there's a case for that, having run them myself for the BC NDP, um, to see how they're handled in a way which does require identification and eliminate some of that fraud. But the catch here in the BC Conservative race is that they've hired a company from the US. So voters are pushing back, and those are BC conservative members, about the fact that they have to upload their driver's license, their passport, take a selfie to confirm their identity through facial recognition. So the conservatives are having to do a lot more work to set up some in-person verification and voting systems as well to address the fact that they have a demographic of folks who are not comfortable with what's been set up in terms of the online system for verification so they can vote for their leadership candidate choice. And some are raising that concern of how they avoid handing over data to a foreign company. And of course, with all of the um implications around that being a company based in the US, what happens to it? And uh if a can if a US company would be following some of Canadian privacy expectations as well. So I do think both these stories, you've got some similar tension, but I also think we have some similar demographics pushing back on how their data is being used. Overall, I do think that Canadians in general are paying a little bit more attention to data use. They're seeing stories pop up in different provinces already. And so you do have to make sure in process, whether that's planning communities or making sure leadership vote isn't being manipulated, that what we're seeing now is people saying, okay, how much of my data is too much? And more importantly, do I trust the people that I'm giving to with it, whether it's government or the political party that they've joined? Because really this all comes down to trust. And so the other thing that I think jumps out to me here is that once that trust starts to erode, and some politicians have definitely been driving mistrust in, you know, the past few years, you do see that impact right away. So people skip the census or they're on the news writing F the liberals on their cards and sending them back. People opt out of voting in races that they've opted into. And suddenly those systems that actually depend on our participation aren't working as well as they are supposed to work. So those aren't just isolated stories. I think they're, you know, a snapshot of a bigger shift happening right now. But I would also argue one that some of the MAGA movement has been driving with messages about government distrust, which maybe seem to be having a little bit of a boomerang effect in some cases.

Tom Parkin 16:32

Yeah, it's it's one of those weird uh flow, emotional flow kind of things, because I I think Canadians are generally trusting of government and companies uh and know that we do have laws to protect them, although we all see hacks uh when, you know, so we know that. Um but I think as you point out, the people who are most suspicious are the kind of mega folks. But then we have the Albert it's the Alberta MAGA people who are leaking the data. So wait a minute, what's going on? It's okay. Like they are creating the circumstance of mistrust that they politically thereafter benefit from. Which is it seems to me uh a lot of the kind of what we're living in right now. Like people uh on the right and the far right create mistrust on the basis of gender, on the basis of religion, on the basis of you know, anything, anything that they can find a division point about.

Corree Tull 17:33

Yeah.

Tom Parkin 17:34

And and then they and then they kind of blossom. Um they grow by by surfing on that wave of mistrust that they create. It's hard to figure how we turn that one around. I I you know, I guess just to try and remember that like we live in a society and and and that's the best way, because it doesn't work too well if we don't um try and work together and uh but anyway, it's far for far away from data, but you know, I think I think you're raising such an excellent point here about how this kind of works politically.

Nikki Hill 18:10

Yeah, it's been interesting to watch. We'll see uh how it flows out for the conservatives by the time they finish their race on the 30th. And then I've got we've got a little bit of time for people to finish their census data and find out what exactly happened and if it was just a blip or that people actually did skip out on it and spoiled those census ballots.

Tom Parkin 18:28

Yeah, might have been five people performing for cameras, we don't know.

Nikki Hill 18:31

Yeah, exactly. We'll see. Just one ballot on TikTok.

Tom Parkin 18:37

Yeah, exactly. Repeated by 17,000 bots.

Nikki Hill 18:41

Yeah. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break and come back with Corey Tell.

Corree Tull 18:46

All right.

Corree Tull: Canada's water, Trump, and intensifying demand

Corree Tull 19:03

Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

Tom Parkin 19:05

Now, Corey, you're the chair of the BC Watershed Security Coalition, director of government relations and engagement with the BC Freshwater Legacy Initiative, uh, and a steering committee member for the Working with Watersheds Initiative. So you know a lot about water and how we manage it for the future. Uh, and it seems like a timely discussion to have. So, Corey, you've been working on these watershed issues for a lot of years, uh, with tensions with Trump and his eye on our water and government focusing on major projects in more traditional ways still. Tell us why water is such an important part of an economic and trade conversation at this current moment.

Corree Tull 19:46

Yeah, I think it's a it's an important conversation, and I appreciate the question because, you know, I think an important place for us to start here is just by understanding like what is watershed security. And, you know, watershed security, it's really about how we're ensuring that our you know, our communities, our economies, our ecosystems that all rely on healthy, dependable water over the long term, you know, for our drinking water, our food production, our energy, and you know, the variety of different industries, um, you know, and our ecosystem health that are, you know, really dependent on this. And as we're seeing climate pressures really intensifying. And so, you know, water right now, one of the things we're seeing is that it's becoming really a defining economic and geopolitical issue of this century. And, you know, just earlier this year, the United Nations University uh, you know, warned that we've entered an era of global water bankruptcy. So many regions, you know, are using more water than the natural systems can reliably replenish. Um, you know, so this is just really signaling this shift from some of these shorter-term water crises or droughts to some longer-term instability within our hydrological systems that you know our communities and our economies depend on. So here in Canada, we're seeing those signals as well. Uh, you know, that's through more droughts, more water security, um, you know, wildfires, floods, uh, you know, and growing pressures and costs on some of our um industries and sectors. And so, you know, we can't really continue to treat water the way that we have as sort of just this environmental add-on. Uh, you know, it's directly tied to our economic security, our trade, our health, uh, you know, and our national resilience. And so, um, you know, in this kind of current political moment, you know, this is becoming really visible. And so when we look at the kind of comments that Trump is making, um, you know, uh, he's sort of talking about the fact that Canada has this very large faucet. And, you know, this kind of is starting to reflect this broader reality that, you know, we're seeing freshwater as this, you know, increasingly strategic global resource. And, you know, the relationships between Canada and the US, um, you know, we've had water agreements like our boundary water treaty for. well over a hundred years, the Columbia River Treaty, and these have all always really depended on cooperation between our two countries. And we can't take that cooperation for granted. But part of it isn't working out so well these days. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Right. And so when we look at things like the Columbia um, you know, River Treaty and how those negotiations were paused, um, you know, that's a really good kind of reminder. And so, you know, I think in this moment that we're in, it's where, you know, we have to ensure that Canada is really clear that, you know, our water is not for sale. It should be excluded from broader trade negotiations. And at the same time, you know, we're seeing, as you said, these sort of traditional, you know, infrastructure projects moving forward. And so, you know, as we're prioritizing those, you know, we have to really start to question, you know, whether watershed security is being built into those decisions and those priorities from the start, you know, because our long-term economic growth is going to depend on secure watersheds and stable water supplies as we go forward.

Nikki Hill 23:07

Absolutely. And let's build a little bit more on that piece. So we are seeing a lot of focus from governments provincially, federally in the last just over a year, really since the Trump administration came in on infrastructure as major projects. You and your colleagues, which I would say is a pretty diverse and large group of colleagues and coalition partners, argue that watershed security should be treated as core infrastructure. So can you like give us a little bit of insight on how underinvestment from governments in in watershed security is showing up in terms of where you started to build there on floods, droughts, wildfires, and emergency costs, but also what sectors are most exposed to watershed failure right now?

Corree Tull 23:49

Yeah, it's um we do work with a diverse group of folks um which is really um great in in how we think about this work and particularly how we think about watersheds as core infrastructure. And you know I think for most people when we talk about infrastructure right roads, bridges, pipelines, dams, you know, but healthy watersheds, you know, they are infrastructure. You know, so when you think about our wetlands and our forests, our floodplains, our aquifers, these all perform these essential functions that our communities rely on every day. And I think most of the times those sort of systems or this this natural infrastructure, it's quietly doing its job, it's in the background, you know, our watersheds, they're regulating our water supply, they they, when they're healthy and they're functioning, they are reducing flood severity, they minimize wildfire risk, you know, and they're recharging the groundwater that we need, you know, supporting our drinking water. But when those systems, our watersheds, now they're degraded, you know, we have got decades of cumulative impacts from land use decisions and different management and underfunding, now these costs from that are starting to show up. And so that's where we're seeing this through these, you know, with rising disasters from floods and wildfires and droughts, these costs are increasing exponentially and they're putting increased risk and costs onto other sectors as well that are dependent on that. You know, and so we're seeing governments responding with billion dollar crisis response, you know, and this is happening year over year. You know, and instead of you know thinking about what is the role that our watersheds play as infrastructure and if we can invest in those up front, how can we then minimize those costs in the first place? So then when we start to look at some of these sectors right now that are really exposed to some of these crises that we're seeing, you know, I think one of the obvious ones is agriculture. You know, of course it's highly exposed food production you know depends on reliable water. And of course drought restrictions, you know, can affect irrigation and of course reduce you know crop yields and and costs. One of the other ones that you know we're starting to see more and more is around our energy systems and hydropower it it can become more vulnerable whether that's changing snowpack, uh, you know, our river flows and you know in 2023 in BC we had a really bad drought. And in that sort of 23, 24 fiscal year, uh hydropower generation in BC saw you know about a billion dollar drop in revenue. And in that period, you know, BC shifted from being a net exporter of electricity to actually importing power to meet you know domestic demand. And so that's something that is a concern as we start to continue to look at more water and security. Yeah.

Tom Parkin 26:43

Yeah we've been talking a lot about jobs and uh you know our our our resources on on the show with guests. And um I guess we as Canadians we we look at how much water we're just naturally blessed with and we we we take it for granted that it's always going to be there. We have water treaties in BC we have them in the Great Lakes. You know here in the Great Lakes area we we see lake levels change. Certainly Winnipeg deals with flooding from the Red River which has its headwaters in the United States that's a you know very expensive thing. So the we have all these impacts about management of watersheds I guess that are uh uh affect us all the time just take us through a little bit more of this idea you know you know you talked about obviously there's agriculture and our capability to produce hydroelectric power um what other kind of you know uh infrastructure uh is affected well sorry what other kinds of jobs and industries are affected by this but also how do we get to a place where we're we're looking at water as being a a sustainable resource so something that we need to manage on an ongoing basis to make sure it's there for us in the future for these jobs.

Corree Tull 27:58

Yeah I think you know one of you know when we think about our watersheds as as core infrastructure, right? One of the things is how are we managing them sustainably? And so one of the things that comes along with that is the work to do that. And so you know I think sometimes there's this misconception that maybe the work uh within you know the watershed work is about conservation or just environmental protection. But in reality what we found is that you know watershed work is a major workforce in economic sector, at least in British Columbia and I can assume across the country as well. And you know and I think one of the things that we're finding that's so interesting about this is just how diverse it is and including really a huge range of sort of skilled jobs. And so you know the watershed workforce is you know everyone from heavy equipment operators that are you know restoring wetlands, moving large woody debris to create you know fish habitat uh you know we have uh you know engineers that are you know designing water systems or indigenous guardians that are you know monitoring rivers, um, you know doing wildfire mitigation, biologists, um, you know, there's technicians out there collecting water data or even entrepreneurs you know in across Canada that are developing clean water technology. And so these are you know really these are skilled family supporting jobs that exist in in communities that are rural, they're urban, you know, and so I think you know one of the things that really surprised us in the work that we did through the watershed sorry for the through working for watersheds initiative was just how large this sector is. And that contributes more than 5 billion in GDP you know and that's more than agriculture and on par with mining. And so we need to start really thinking about you know this much bigger national opportunity here as you know water security and climate adaptation and infrastructure needs are continuing to grow, you know, we've got this workforce that you know is kind of sitting right in this sort of like intersection of the economic development priorities, the infrastructure needs and this climate resilience that we have to reckon with. And so you know if we can actually start to think about this workforce and prioritize it and invest in sort of creating this low these local employment opportunities, um, you know, we get massive return and like local knock-on effects within economies. But then we also are reducing those long-term costs that our governments are are coming up against and ultimately those costs come back to Canadians.

Nikki Hill 30:42

Yeah that's really helpful. And I think you know building on that too we've got we're we look at the federal government and and where they're trying to go as well on policy and I think where Canadians want to be is in that bi-Canadian strategy. We saw it in the federal budget, but in the same budget we didn't see watersheds. And so can you build a little bit on how the bi-Canadian strategy actually depends on healthy watersheds but also a little bit of thinking here on where we're thinking looking at and you know I I would say we're recording on on Friday. So we know we know that Carney and Alberta have big agreements coming out as well today. But as we look at some of faster approvals on projects that are water intensive, what happens when some of that development might be outpacing water monitoring and oversight as well with industry?

Corree Tull 31:28

Yeah um yeah you you name that uh well Nikki just in that we didn't see watersheds in the recent budget and obviously as I sort of was saying, you know, our economy like it depends on water. And so um you know I think that by Canadian strategy, you know, it it depends on healthy watersheds for all of those sectors that the federal government is prioritizing that they want to strengthen. And so you know and I think even you know the recent announcements around you know new sectors like AI and data centers, right? You know, large data centers, they also require an enormous amount of electricity and water for cooling um you know and yet kind of water availability and watershed impacts are still often treated as these kind of secondary conditions, right? Yeah. Um in these policy discussions and and economic um priorities. And so um I think it's important that we start to think about sort of what those robust regulations and considerations need to be and the potential impacts on our communities and our water needs. But you know I think as we start to think about sort of the long-term economic resilience and economic sovereignty of like where we need to go as a country, you know, we have to consider how watershed security is built into those strategies from the start and not considered as sort of these afterthoughts. You know, and I think that's where, you know, we see two things a real gap in sort of the scale of investment. So like in the budget, right, we've got massive amounts of money that is going into these industrial strategies versus roughly nothing that's going into like our freshwater systems that make the success and the growth of those strategies possible. So then when we start to think about okay we're fast tracking approvals um you know and we don't have the water monitoring we don't have the data and we don't have the oversight this creates real risk for communities and for our health and you know and and our ecosystems and so you know when you know when our watersheds are already drained they're already under pressure we you know aren't investing in that kind of management and data to make good decisions then you know this is where sort of that oversight monitoring becomes a real concern and um you know it makes me think of in BC, you know, Mount Pauli more than a decade ago and explain that one explain that one what's Mount Pauli for us non BCers great good question. So in uh so in in BC um you know we saw with Mount Pauli really where it Mount Pauli is a mine that has like large sort of tailing ponds um and you know it arguably the safeguards um sort of fell behind um in the development and um expansion around some of that project uh and it resulted in a collapse um of that that which of their their uh pond and so you know the you know so the tailing pond went into the watershed yeah yeah yeah and so the impacts of that um you know of that disaster on the local economy on the environment on the like cultural like significance of many regions there uh for the First Nations um fisheries uh you know as well as just like broader community costs like the there the communities are still dealing with this more than a decade later right and so you know I think I want to acknowledge that you know I don't think the solution is that we stop development by any means. It's about making sure that we have the strategies in place so that that economic growth is matched by investments in our watersheds, in the science, in the monitoring and you know indigenous stewardship and that long-term governance so that our communities can meet these current moments our you know our country can meet this moment without undermining the systems that ultimately are going to sustain our collective health and prosperity for our future.

Nikki Hill 35:40

Yeah and that really strikes me watching the because we had the the data centers announced in in Vancouver and it's interesting to watch sort of that you know because the drivers are around building the economy and and attracting business but it is interesting to see the real rapid response from people in Vancouver about that water usage. And it and so it's it is like you're seeing that top of mind for the public it happened so fast I think that you can you can see where people are thinking about these issues as they also look at things like large new industries being built in. Well I think people are pretty sensitive.

Tom Parkin 36:15

Pretty sensitive to I mean they're they're aware of what the AI centers uh water consumption requirements are so it's not a shocker that people are like well what's this what's this mean on that? And Mr. Carney doesn't seem to have an answer.

Corree Tull 36:29

Yeah it absolutely and I think yeah they're they're they're good questions that you know people in Vancouver but people across Canada need to be asking and you know I think the one in Vancouver is you know it's timely in the sense that you know Metro Vancouver just came into stage two water restrictions, completely bypass stage one water restrictions. This is the first time that that's ever happened. You know and so you know it continues to beg that question where you know we can't just continue to say that you know individuals are the only people that are responsible for conservation when we're not actually looking at who our largest water users are and what responsibility and accountability do they have to ensuring not only the conservation and the like use of that of that water, but also how they're they're supporting the effective management of that water um into the into the future as well. Yeah.

Tom Parkin 37:27

Yeah we've we've in this country we've gone through struggles around other you know resources like forestry where you know forestry industry at one time uh was very much resistant to the idea of sustainable forestry and yeah well actually it was your government mostly Nikki the BCNDP that that forced the issue of like sustainable forestry practices is long-term jobs um or the fisheries same I mean you can you can you can uh deplete these resources and I guess this is the the question that that is hanging um is um you know as we put more pressure on our water requirements is there a way to manage it so that this expansion is long-term sustainable um and and the the twist in this case is so many of our watersheds are shared by the United States and we have treaties but we have a guy down there uh who doesn't respect treaties or respect us very much um what has Mr.

Corree Tull 38:22

Trump said about um our water and uh that you know should be raising alarm bells or giving us some idea of where what he thinks Canada's water uh where it should flow yeah well I mean I think the consistent thing that we've heard from Trump I mentioned it earlier was just like this idea that we are just a really large faucet and you know and it's troubling because you know it's sort of framing our Canada's freshwater as this strategic resource um you know at the same time that we are seeing this water scarcity really intensifying. And uh but I think that where you know it requires us to pay attention to the kind of comments um you know that the American administration is making um you know is really around this, you know, as they continue to push like a very you know American first approach on energy and natural resources, you know, we have to really think about how that further accelerates climate instability, which then ultimately worsens our droughts, our floods, you know, wildfires and water scarcity. So you know and that increases then you know pressure and competition over our water supply. And we're seeing this as we were even just talking about you know the by Canadian um strategy and whatnot is that now sort of those um you know geopolitical pressures, you know, we're seeing that in our domestic priorities and policies um and how you know as we prioritize that you know acceleration on some major projects and you know where is that oversight right um and making sure that we've got those safeguards in place. And you know I think that you know I think we this is where we have to consider like you know the fact that our water security is so intricately tied to our economic security and our sovereignty is is that we have to be able to demonstrate in Canada that we do care about our water and that we do prioritize it and we do value it because that is how we make ourselves stronger as a country and more resilient as a country. And that's where we need to be able to actually prioritize you know strengthening the governance, the better decision making, strengthening the data that we have to do that, you know, and that's where then we can strengthen our cross border you know agreements and making it abundantly clear how we prioritize water in Canada.

Tom Parkin 40:58

A little more national water consciousness in a way you know just interesting yeah yeah let's um take a moment to be a little bit more aspirational.

Nikki Hill 41:10

So what would you say success looks like in 10 years if Canada did start treating watershed security as an essential infrastructure other rather than the you know the conservation or environmental expense that that you often see in your work?

Corree Tull 41:24

Yeah. Thank you for asking this question because I think it's an important question and I it's so easy for us to get pulled into the crisis and risk and um and there's so much to be hopeful about um and you know I think this is what drives a lot of us through this work. But you know, so first success really you know it starts with a shift in how our governments see watershed security. And you know most importantly it means that you know we're moving beyond sort of these you know short-term like throw some money here and a few grants there to like stable funding that communities and watershed initiatives can really plan around you know and then what this means is that our governments are working together differently and so we can have collaboration between nations, you know, and indigenous governments, municipalities, provinces, territories and federal governments and so we're planning at the that sort of watershed scale instead of in these silos and reacting to crises. And you know and I think that collaboration is really you know if that's backed by shared water data and monitoring systems like across the country, you know, and I think that's where like the candidate water agency can like play a really important role in leading, then you know we're we're working from an understanding of like risk supply and long-term availability in like an appropriate way, you know, and then we start to actually see the impact on the ground. And you know so that's where you know in 10 years, you know, we still have rivers flowing clean with reliable water even though as predictions are showing hotter you know drier summers you know and we've got this workforce that's growing and it's out there and it's doing the work to ensure that our communities are no longer stuck in this crisis mode and they're prepared and they're resilient and there's less pressures from these crises that we're seeing you know less spoiled water advisories, you know, less costs, less water shortages, you know, and then there's also those successes economically that our communities are facing whether that's more certainty for our farmers and our energy systems or our you know housing or tourism but it's thousands of jobs where people are staying in their communities. And you know I think for me when I think about the work that I do and the people that I get to work with With uh through the BC Watershed Security Coalition. Um, you know, it's it kind of becomes a bit even simpler than this, in that, you know, Dr. Shannon Waters, uh, you know, she said something that was like, if we take care of our watersheds, our watersheds will take care of us. And for me, like success is just that. Like, how do we make sure that our kids growing up today, you know, my kids included, few kids for future generations, you know, that they can really like they can sw still swim in our rivers, they can continue to learn from the land, and they can inherit watersheds that are, you know, they're healthy enough to continue to take care of them too. Yeah, not that.

Tom Parkin 44:44

You were talking uh about the you know, the idea that if different levels of government can get their act together, it can be, you know, we can achieve a lot. But uh, you know, just actually, you know, educate me a little bit here because uh w it seems you know, if you look at our constitution, i uh am I right in saying that mm lakes and st lakes and rivers generally would be a responsibility of the province primarily. You know, I think there's I think the Great Lakes are different. They are federal, certainly the Coast Guard, the Canadian Coast Guard, uh is in the Great Lakes. It's uh different. But so we've got different governments responsible for uh uh a river that runs to the lake, then the one that's responsible for the lake, and then we have international, and then we have water conservation agencies, which are often um uh uh at a different level, and then we've got municipalities that are drawing water for our water service. So just uh to try and break this out like how where's the tip of the spear, I guess, is what I'm asking. You know, if if there's one if there's a level of government that can say, you know what, we're gonna take this seriously because we need water into the future to maintain our our way of life, um, to keep doing the jobs that we do, to keep being able to have water when we want it, which one of those levels of government is best positioned to really drive the change and get others on board?

Corree Tull 46:10

Yeah, so I don't think it's just one level of government. I think it really does have to be a shared responsibility. Um, and a big part of that is because, you know, our water and our watersheds, like they don't follow sort of these traditional political boundaries, right? And so we have to ensure that all of the government are involved. Um, you know, whether or not our system right now is designed for that. Um, but you know, because the challenge right now is that water's managed kind of everywhere at once, but not always together or aligned. And so then we have these different jurisdictions, obviously, right? Not talking to each other or not planning jointly or investing in like coordinated ways. And so, you know, I think, you know, as these challenges that we're seeing are growing, um, you know, we have to start to think about who's in the best position to be doing what work and where does that co collaboration and alignment need to come together. And so I think this is where local governments really matter. Municipalities are often like the level of government closest to the impacts, um, but they're also the ones kind of best positioned to convene with their communities, with their neighbors, as well as across those kind of jurisdictions that can bring people together, provincial, federal agencies, indigenous governments to really align around that planning and infrastructure delivery. And so, you know, I think in many ways that's where at the local level, policy kind of becomes real. Um, and it's also where these decisions that are being made, you know, they either build resilience or they don't. Um, and I'm including sort of watersheds as part of like those infrastructure decisions, right? And so um, you know, and so I think it's, yeah, I don't think we can choose one level of government over another, but I think we need to start to think about how our system, you know, ensures that all levels of government are actually working together with clear coordination, shared data, and aligned investments so that we move out of these silos and we can actually start building that resilience at that watershed scale. And so this include, you know, this means that, you know, we can start to do more integrated watershed level planning and governance approaches, you know, that connect watersheds, land use, infrastructure, fisheries, thinking at that watershed scale rather than purely just, you know, administrative kind of boundaries. And I think ultimately this will unlock better, you know, priority setting, build that local trust relationships, but we get more efficient investments in the work that needs to happen, and then better long-term outcomes and resilience from that when our jurisdictions can work together around watershed.

Tom Parkin 48:50

Yeah, it's a it's an interesting discussion, Corey. And I think it's something, you know, I'm glad we were able to shed a little bit more focus, uh, put a little bit more focus on it with you. Um and uh we should see if we can continue the conversation and help uh raise that awareness of uh watershed and the impact on our on our economy, on our politics, on our um on how we see ourselves as Canadians. So thank you so much for joining uh Left East West. Appreciate it very much.

Corree Tull 49:17

Thanks for having me. Thanks, Corey.

Tom Parkin 49:19

Yeah, great to meet you.

Tom's loving that he called it, predicting the OLP would defeat Nate Erskine-Smith

Speaker 4 49:22

Don't go away, we'll be right back with love it or heave it.

Nikki Hill 49:34

Before we wrap today's show, we've come to the part that we call love it or heave it, which is about something that you love and want to keep normally, or that you want to heave and forever forget. But this week I actually think we're both going back into where we were right just for the fun of it.

Tom Parkin 49:52

Yeah. We're gonna rename this segment. We're gonna rename this segment. You should have listened to me then. Well, I I am loving that on the show back on February the 16th, I predicted the Ontario Liberal Brass, by any means necessary, was gonna try and knock out liberal MP Nate Erskine Smith at an upcoming provincial by-election nomination because that would make his campaign to become the Ontario Party leader, as I said then, dead on arrival. And it pretty much is. Uh, I'm also loving that some liberals on social media said my prediction was ridiculous. And uh to them, my friends, I'm accepting your apologies by email or you can DM me. It's it's I'm I'm very flexible on this.

Nikki Hill 50:35

So with the show email address in this point.

Tom Parkin 50:39

XX or you know, wherever they want. I'm I'm I'm open to anything. Postcards are nice too. A win era backroom team, including Ted Lodchko and Tom Allison, were reunited here to stop Nate. They ran a wealthy, unknown businessman, uh Samuel Hafiza, Hafizah, sorry, against Nate. And it was extremely messy. Uh, and the fallout isn't really fully known yet because it looks like there's going to be some ongoing legalistic battles. But as of today, it seems like Lodgeco and Allison did narrowly stop Nate. Tom Allison ran campaigns for Kathleen Wynn, Bonnie Crombie, and John Torrey. Lodgeco was campaign manager for former Wynn Cabinet Minister Han Dong when he ran for a federal liberal nomination in 2021. Um, and a foreign interference inquiry was called after news broke that an official of China's Toronto consulate paid for a busload of Chinese private high school students to attend that liberal nomination and go vote for Mr. Dong. Don't campaign denied any knowledge, Nikki. It was just a coincidence. So uh in this particular contest in Scarborough Southwest by provincial by-election, the PCs have not named a candidate yet. And while the Liberals are fighting each other, the NDP is out putting a lot of resources into building a team around a candidate that they nominated at several weeks ago, Fatima Shaban, who's been out on the doorsteps. Uh, and this is a very high priority by-election. Very important to all three parties, will be watched closely. So um it's kind of a a waypoint, uh, a milestone toward the eventual election that's still in Ontario is oh still three and a half years away.

Corree Tull 52:28

Oh yeah. I know some time for this.

Tom Parkin 52:32

Long time.

Nikki loving that BC Conservative claims of 42,000 doesn't seem true

unknown 52:33

Yeah.

Tom Parkin 52:34

What are you what do you what are you right about? What are you loving that you that you were right about many weeks ago?

Nikki Hill 52:40

Yeah, I mean, I don't know how right I am yet. I just think I am on a trajectory to be very right here. So you know, and and again, I was not gonna go back in the BC conservative leadership race and and full respect over as a former party staffer. I always had that empathy for folks in different political parties, no matter what stripes as they're trying to navigate some of these big systems. But um, and we've got a couple weeks to go here, but there was something that that keeps showing up here in BC that does build into where I get to be right as you know, political science geek and party administration geek about party functions. Um, so a couple of shows back, I talked about how unusual it was that the BC Conservative Party had released the membership numbers for their leadership race like a day after it closed off. So that would have been, you know, about a month ago, back in April, when when they ended that sign-up period. And so they put out a lot of social media, press releases saying they had the biggest membership in the province, really boasting about 42,000 members, which, you know, I'll credit 42,000 members is impressive for a provincial political party. If true and they went out there, if true. So if Impressive If True is our caveat here.

Tom Parkin 53:54

So that should be actually the title of this episode. Impressive if true.

Nikki Hill 53:59

We'll get full kudos if it's true. Yes. We are fair people on this podcast. Um, but uh, you know, what was curiosity to me and what I what I talked about a couple shows ago was the fact having gone through leadership races myself on the party executive side is that there's still that vetting process. They're still going through candidate complaints as they look through the lists and see any discrepancies. They challenge different members. Folks have to, you know, show identification in different points, depending on what the systems. And, you know, we talked about early in the show that conservatives have set up some solid systems around identification and so on, but that goes carryover into some of the vetting. So we've been seeing a fair bit of social media about people getting vetted out, not having their membership approved. Vancouver son legislative reporter Alec Lazenby ran a story this week saying that according to someone affiliated with one of the leadership campaigns, so you know, we're still in the hearsay part of being right over here. Um, but only if we go back to 42,000 members being, you know, boasted about as after that cutoff, that only 11,000 had been vetted so far. And we are into voting here. That started on on May 9th. So that lines up as well with what BC Radio Talk Show host and former MLA Jazz Joe Hall's also been posting about how low the vetting numbers are, specifically in the South Asian community, which is a pretty significant voting block and population you want to bring in on a leadership race for sure. So hard to imagine if you've got, you know, if it's true that there's 11,000 or so folks vetted, how you actually do hit 42,000 real members, um given that the vote's underway and these verifications are going on. So I'll be fascinated to see what those numbers come out as at the end in the wash and if they actually release them. And these are massive processes. You know, it certainly takes a lot of work and a lot of staff time to pull off the leadership race and even to vet 42,000 members, like that in itself is a heavy lift on the staffing and planning side. But I also just think this is a case of don't count those membership numbers before they're vetted, or I get to enjoy being right.

Tom Parkin 56:12

Yeah. So so if only 11,000 have been vetted in, do we know how many have been in vetted out? Like I've been disqualified.

Nikki Hill 56:21

We're just getting the that we're just getting most multiple media reports of different leadership camps talking to the media, and it's all sort of coming into the zone of low amounts actually getting through the and people are posting their emails saying that they get from the party saying that their membership's not being counted. So we we are seeing it um to rise up a fair bit here. But um I think the trick here is they did start voting already, and we're a weekend to voting uh over now. And so and it closes on the 30th. So you gotta go pretty quick here to make sure people are happy with the process.

Tom Parkin 56:55

So will they even be finished vetting uh when they're supposed to announce the result?

Nikki Hill 57:01

Tough to say.

Tom Parkin 57:03

Yeah.

Nikki Hill 57:03

Godspeed to the conservative staffers.

Tom Parkin 57:06

That could be a little embarrassing. And I wouldn't like that at all if that happened, if that if they were embarrassed. I know you've been either. Because you're a fair minority. No one wishes. I appreciate that. No.

Corree Tull 57:15

Yeah.

Tom Parkin 57:17

Okay, and we're gonna be right about that, I'm sure. Um I guess that's what we got for the week, right? Uh but we got uh uh another show next week, and we have who do we have on deck, Nikki? We have We have Jennifer Howard coming on next week.

Nikki Hill 57:31

Woman of multi hats and lots of experience.

Tom Parkin 57:34

Yes, former minister in Manitoba. Former minister, yeah. Uh former chief of staff for the NDP leader Jug May Sing. Yeah. Um so there's a lot there to talk about. There's a lot there to talk about next. I saw some interesting social media posts, I know you saw them too, because I saw your comments, uh, about her some of her uh experiences as a staffer on the hill, which were sometimes uh not so great. Yeah. Maybe we should touch on that. Maybe. Yeah. At least what at least one question. You know.

Nikki Hill 58:08

In fairness, it's like sway people from staffer life.

Tom Parkin 58:12

Well, or you know, but we've also seen some concerted efforts uh from time to time to try and fix it. And uh be part of that. Okay. Yeah. All right. Nikki, have a great week. We'll be back at the time. All right. All right. Me too. Take care. Yep.

Speaker 4 58:25

Bye. Thanks for joining Left East to West with hosts Nikki Hill and Tom Parker. We love to hear your comments, ratings, follows, and shares. It helps people find us. To become a Left East to West community member and to help us reach even more Canadians. Subscribe using the link in the show notes. You can watch us on YouTube or listen wherever you get your favorite podcasts. Just search for Left East to West and subscribe. I'm Doug Hamilton, signing off for Left East to West. We'll see you next week.