Federal Climate Concessions and Cities on the Front Line

Shauna Sylvester, Founder and Lead Convenor of Urban Climate Leadership, sits down with Nikki and Tom to talk about Canada's city halls, convening nascent economic sectors, and long-term change that creates jobs, increases energy efficiency and helps people.

The Urban Climate Institute is currently convening those who bring social capital -- skills, knowledge, production, finance, policy -- to switch many urban apartment heating systems to heat pumps. The initiative brings air conditioning to many tenants who don't already have it while reducing total electricity demand and the need to spend on more power plants. Shauna sees the approach as a model that can be used to develop other sectors.

Shauna has worked as a convenor in other transformation projects, including Canada’s World, which worked to help decision-makers other countries see a modern Canada, and in that a potential partner an friend.

Below the Fold

With municipal elections happening in several provinces this fall, Tom connects with Saman Tabasinejad, executive director of Progress Toronto, for an update on her city's civic elections.

Tom also gets the details on the recent Smith-Carney oil and gas MOU from The Breach contributor Desmond Cole, who reports that key environment groups are raising concerns Carney has agreed to cut the industrial carbon levy so deeply that private sector investment in the promised carbon capture and storage plan -- The Pathways Project -- will never happen with just private money.

Love it or heave it 

Nikki is loving that the BC legislative session and the BC Conservative race is now almost over ans everybody can heal.

Tom is loving seeing Manitoba Premier Wab Kinew deal a very public correction to the "fake framing" of Alberta Premier Danielle Smith about à recent court case.

Transcript

Tom Parkin 0:24

Welcome to Left East West with me, Tom Parkend.

Nikki Hill 0:28

And me, Nikki Hill. I'm really looking forward to our discussion today, Tom, with Shauna Sylvester. Shauna is the senior fellow of the Definity Foundation, founder and lead convener of the Urban Climate Leadership, a project of Makeway. And she has a really impressive career as a convener and a policy leader, you know, not just here in BC, but across the country and globally. So really looking forward to the conversation at this critical time. And she's the former executive director at the SFU Mosque, Jay Wask Center for Dialogue, the Urban Sustainability Directors Network for US and Canada, and the co-founder of several local and international initiatives.

Tom Parkin 1:09

And she ran for Vancouver mayor in 2020. She did. So we'll talk about that mix with municipal government, which is timely because we have municipal elections in many provinces: Beastie, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario, and Prince Edward Island this fall. So that mix of municipal and environmental connects with our this weekend of the full theme for this show. First, we're going to have a check-in with Saman Tabasinajad about the work of Progress Toronto, the civic movement boosting progressive candidates in Toronto's municipal elections coming up. And then Desmond Cole, who's been covering the Smith Carney MOU for the breach.

Nikki Hill 1:49

Yeah, some great interviews to add in today. And then, but not just ending today. So reminding you of some really interesting people joining us for episodes in June, because somehow it is June. So first up with Steven Loven, the former Social Democrat Prime Minister of Sweden. So big interview there with Tom next week. Jim Stanford, a really well-known Canadian economist. We've been waiting to get on the show for a while. And Carla Beck, the leader of the Saskatchewan NDP. So you can hear us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, whatever you're listening to, tap that follow button so you'll see left, east to west episodes as they pop up on Mondays, and you can remember to check them out. We have Shauna Sylvester coming up shortly, but first let's do this week Below the Fold, tracking a couple of important news stories that didn't make national headlines.

Tom Parkin 3:04

Yeah. Important race. And for an on-the-ground look, I connected with a friend Taman Sabajinjad, Executive Director of Progress Toronto. Welcome to Left East to West, Saman. Thanks for joining us.

SPEAKER_03 3:17

Thank you for having me. Yeah.

Tom Parkin 3:19

Mayor Chow launched her re-election saying lots has been done and lots left to do. What have been the important changes you've seen and what are the steps ahead she's seeking a mandate for?

SPEAKER_03 3:31

Yeah, so Progress Toronto, um, we supported Chow in 2023. Um, we helped elect her along alongside six other city councillors since 2022. Um and we've seen some really important uh movements on issues that Progress Toronto has been campaigning on alongside tens of thousands of people for since our inception in 2018. So we've been around since then, and we've been campaigning on things like affordable housing, transit, investments in services, and there have been really great changes, right? We're seeing seven days a week open libraries. We're hot we're seeing that there's more investment like in services, more rec programs. There's the Toronto crisis response program that's been expanded to the whole city. Um, there's like more, uh, way more investment in building affordable housing by the city, but also in the buying up existing affordable housing that's at risk of being converted uh into um luxury condos. So there's been a lot done, but there's still a lot more to do. Like we are in a crisis, and that is after we've had 13 years of conservative rule. Um, the mess, the affordable crisis that we're experiencing today was not created, obviously, by this administration that's been around for two and a half years. Um, and there's a lot more to do. Like these last two and a half years have really been how do we um kind of right, like move this ship towards like a better path. However, have the there's a there's a lot more to be done, right? We need to build more affordable housing. We need to um reinvest in those services that for so long have been cut and um underfunded. We need to like bring uh contract back in a lot of the s uh the uh services that have been contracted out, like snow clothing, like garbage collection, um and in a lot of those wasteful contracts that lead that are that uh don't serve the public well and they don't serve workers well. So um there's a you guys I can imagine that the mayor has it a lot.

Tom Parkin 5:40

Yeah. You you progress Toronto has been around, as you say, for now eight years. Uh but there seem to be several groups on the right of the spectrum suddenly popping up. What do you make of that? And uh how do you think Progress Toronto differs in the way that you do organizing?

SPEAKER_03 5:57

Yeah, I I I uh I find the it a little bit of a a compliment, you know, the more the merrier. Um they see that we have been effective. Um we but Progress Toronto is not just like me. I'm a very small part of the organization. Um there we have an amazing staff team, but we also what the most important part of our of our group, our uh organization is really like our thousands of volunteers who are out door knocking every single day. I haven't seen the of those other groups really mobilize people in the same way. I think that they um I think that they think that we're just or they think that they just can be on like present online to kind of have the impact that we do. Yeah. I guess that's uh that's what I would say in some ways.

SPEAKER_04 6:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:45

Yeah. Um and our and our work is really powerful, like we're out six, seven, eight times a week, knocking on doors, speaking to thousands of people on the ground. Um, those volunteers reach tens of thousands of people or hundreds of thousands of people. Like, and so when we get into the election, um when we just like progress trying to decide to support candidates or oppose candidates, we have a very tight budget of just $25,000. Um and as progressives, we know how to stretch a dollar. We're very prudent in our fiscal management. And we're only able really able to do that because we print out all of our flyers in the office on our printer. Those flyers get cut, um, counted, and bundled and delivered door to door. We're talking about tens of thousands of people who receive these flyers by volunteers. And that volunteer like energy is what is able to deliver that, those wins that we've seen, not only the six city councillors plus the mayor that we've helped elect, but also we defeated Anthony Fury. We defeated um Brad Bradford in the last election, Mark Saunders, we defeated also um uh Mark Grimes in 20 in 2022.

Tom Parkin 7:58

Yeah, Simon, in in Ontario, generally the mayor is the agenda setter and one vote on council, not a kind of CEO mayor. So you have 25 ward campaigns that all each one of them really matters to win a progressive council. How important is it to Progress Toronto to have a progressive running for mayor, shaping the overall election narrative?

SPEAKER_03 8:20

Yeah, so I would say that's one factor in it, but uh locally, um a lot there's a lot of components to it, right? How strong your volunteer base is, how many people, how lot how deep is your connection to the community? Um oftentimes like an income advantage is very real. And so Progress Toronto really gets involved in those races where we know we can have a strategic, give a strategic edge to counselors or council um candidates. And and so that's what we'll be looking for and in in the fall, and we are looking to elect a progressive majority so we can have more of those ambitious wins because the reality is Olivia Chow has been governing with John Torre, City Council, and this is an opportunity to make council more progressive and have a progressive majority.

Tom Parkin 9:08

Yeah, okay. Well, good work for it. Cement, thank you so much for joining. And uh what day is Ontario uh what what day is the municipal voting in Ontario this year?

SPEAKER_03 9:20

It's on October 26th, approximately 150 days away.

Tom Parkin 9:24

Okay, all right, you got it. Uh so we got that date circled, and hopefully we can talk again before then and catch up on how the campaigns are shape, shaping up. Thanks very much. Take care.

Nikki Hill 9:35

All right, thank you. Really interesting that others are trying to look like Progress Toronto here, but they're more like influencer groups than volunteers doing some of the doorstep conversations Progress Toronto has been doing for.

Tom Parkin 9:47

Yeah, Progress Toronto has built a real volunteer base across the city and uh they also know where they're fighting. So, you know, what what wards. So that's uh valuable.

Nikki Hill 9:55

Mm-hmm. For sure. And you're tracking a second story this week. I think a lot of people were tracking this one in the last couple of weeks, especially here in BC. Uh so that's that memo of understanding between Mark Carney and Danielle Smith, which wasn't at all under the fold, but the details about the deal really are.

Tom Parkin 10:13

Yeah, and I thought it was really urgent to get under the fold on this kind of sprawling story, and someone who's great at really crunching stories down to their core points is Desmond Cole, probably best known for being an author, but also someone covering his MOU for the breach. Desmond Cole, thank you for joining us. Welcome to Left East West. Yeah, my pleasure, Tom. Thanks for having me. Way back when there was a grand bargain between Ottawa, Alberta, and the oil and gas companies. Yeah, there was going to be a new pipeline approval, but also consumer and industrial carbon taxes, the North Pacific tanker ban, and an emissions cap. But the CEOs reneged, and we just watched the final capitulation. What was new in this agreement between Smith and Kearney that we've seen that we saw last month?

SPEAKER_01 10:58

So the biggest change is uh, of course, to the price of carbon, the charge that industrial emitters uh are expected to pay per ton of emissions. And if you go back to 2021, the Justin Trudeau liberals uh had this document called A Healthy Environment and a Healthy Economy. It was a climate plan. And in this plan, their goal was to get to a price on uh a carbon charge of $170 by 2030. If we look at Mark Kearney's plan now, it is calling for a price of $130 by 2030. So that's actually like a 28% reduction. And the problem with it, if you ask, you know, the David Suzuki Foundation or if you ask the Canadian Climate Institute, is that it's just not going to give enough of an incentive to these polluters to build up the pathways carbon capture and storage program that they've promised to do in exchange for getting this pipeline. There's just not enough of a penalty on them uh to do so. I think that's the biggest kind of new thing that's come out of this. I think it's also important to note Yeah, go ahead. Sorry.

Tom Parkin 12:18

Aaron Powell Well, just take us into that for a sec, because that cap carbon capture and storage idea, the pathways plan, uh, was was kind of premised on having an industrial carbon tax at a rate that would make investing in that project seem like a good business plan. Is that is that is that now gone?

SPEAKER_01 12:35

What's your sense of that? Aaron Powell I would say just not gone, but significantly weakened. The balance is off. We have climate targets, emissions reduction targets that we have agreed to under the Paris Climate Agreement. And we can only reach those targets by 2050 with a quite aggressive, way more aggressive plan than we have had. We haven't been meeting our targets for most of the time up until now that we signed that agreement. We started getting a little bit back on track in the last couple of years. But um we're nowhere near net zero by 2050 means that Canada actually takes out of the atmosphere and out of industry the same amount of carbon as we're producing. We have absolutely no chance uh to get there with this plan. And so there are still um penalties and there are still incentives, um, but they're off. I think it's also important to note uh that um there's no agreement on how much the Pathways program is supposed to cost and how much of a split industry and government are going to uh uh contribute in order to build it out. Uh they estimated the five big oil companies that are part of the Pathways plan estimated that it would cost $16.5 billion in 2022. Um everything gets more expensive with time, everything that you need to build. Uh the materials have gotten more expensive. We know the price of a lot of things is going up. We have this trade issue with the United States. So I imagine that that estimate, and it's just an estimate, will be higher the next time the government provides one, but they're not providing an estimate at all. And I think that's worrying. And just a final idea, Tom, is that what holds we call it a bargain. It's an agreement. What holds these companies to this agreement? If they don't capture as much carbon and store it as they promise to or as they anticipate that they will, what is the penalty for them? There isn't one. And so there are a lot of worrying signs about how this is rolling out.

Tom Parkin 14:43

And we and the public could be on the hook for a project that doesn't work very well. And and I think you've uh made some comments about this technology or this process uh itself being a little bit unfounded or unproven. Can you just raise just you know illustrate the concern a little bit?

SPEAKER_01 15:01

Yeah. So there are a few issues with carbon uh capture and storage. Uh one big issue with it is that it kind of takes our focus away from what the problem is. The problem is too much carbon emissions, too much CO2 in the atmosphere. As much as uh carbon capture and storage might be able to reduce some emissions, 20% of what we emit from industry comes from the actual harvesting of things like oil and gas. But 80% comes from consuming it, from burning it. 80% of the total. So no matter how much carbon and capture storage you do, you're not addressing the root of the problem because the majority of whatever gets taken out through the production is going to be burned. It's gonna be consumed, and that's where most of the pollution comes from. So carbon capture and storage is a little bit of a diversion away from, I think, a better overall climate policy. Other problems with carbon capture and storage, among others, is that it costs a lot of money, as we know. It uses itself a lot of energy in order to be developed and to run. And um it it's just right now 0.5% of emissions in Canada are captured by carbon capture and storage. 0.5%. Let's be really generous and say that this could triple or quadruple quadruple that through pathways. I mean, we're still nowhere near getting to net zero with that kind of emissions. So I think carbon capture and storage has its uh promise, but it's just not nearly enough of what we need if we're actually serious about our targets.

Tom Parkin 16:57

Yeah.

unknown 16:58

Okay.

Tom Parkin 16:58

Well well thanks, Desmond, for helping us kind of wrap our heads around what is the what is the the center of this problem? Because I think for a lot of people watching the story, it's it's it's operates at the level of politics, but not really understanding what's what's below that. So uh thank you very much. And you've been cutting. Can I add about it? Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

Something new in the spring economic update was that the government of Mark Carney announced that it wants to give tax credits for something called CCUS. We've been talking about CCS, carbon capture and storage. CCUS is carbon capture utilization and storage. And what the utilization part essentially boils down to is taking carbon dioxide that you're capturing from an industrial project and actually pumping it back into uh an oil project to help with the pressure to produce more oil. So the government is subs Yeah, but um with carbon that's been captured already, and the government is now saying it's going to subsidize this. So what we're actually doing is subsidizing it oil companies to produce more of the thing that is creating the environmental problem that we're trying to stop. And so the incentives for a lot of what Mark Carney has introduced here are really problematic, to say the least. Yeah.

Tom Parkin 18:23

Yeah. All right. Well, yeah, thank you for uh raising all these issues and helping us focus on the things that are problematic here so we can watch them over the next while. Um your uh uh outfit, the breach, you also have a podcast, right? And people can find that podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and all those kind of places. That's correct. Anywhere you live. Alright, well, good. And I think it's uh every second week you've put something out. So um folks who are watching, maybe right after you you tap the follow button for Left East to West, of course, head over to the Breach podcast and give that one a follow too, and listening to uh Desmond uh talking about uh the issues that the breach is always always raising for us. So thanks. Thanks very much, Des.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

It's a pleasure. Thanks. See you later.

Tom Parkin 19:07

Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back with Shauna. We're pleased to welcome Shauna Sylvester to the show this week. She's a senior fellow of the Definity Foundation, founder and lead convener of Urban Climate Urban Climate Leadership, a project of Makeway. So welcome to Left East to West, Shauna.

SPEAKER_04 19:34

Thanks, Tom. It's great to be here.

Tom Parkin 19:36

Thank you. Um, you've got an impressive career as a convener and a policy leader. You ran for Vancouver mayor, and we want to talk about that in a minute, but a big focus for you now is the urban climate leadership. Tell us about that and how this flows from your interest in municipal government and policy.

SPEAKER_06 19:56

Thanks, Tom. Actually, uh, I think urban climate leadership is the culmination of 40 years of working in this space. And and I started uh I'm aging myself, but I started in the early 80s, uh, really doing a lot of facilitation and convening, research, policy work, lobbying, advocacy. Um, and I think what I learned from all of those years is that while it was it wasn't easy, but it was fairly straightforward to do the research and come up with prescriptions for change. It was extremely hard to get to implementation. So urban climate leadership was created, it's a project of Makeway Charitable Society, and it was created with uh three foundations um to really support cities where they're having a struggle in overcoming the obstacles on equitable climate action. And the focus is getting the people around the table that all have a piece of the puzzle who could actually come up with some of those solutions and then to work across those private, public, nonprofit sectors to not just come up with the pathway to the solution, but actually get to implementation. And as I said, it it's far harder than it looks. Um and I'll use the one example uh is that when I first started, I thought financing was going to be the big issue. And I was looking specifically at the issues of how do you ensure that people don't die in the next heat dump? And particularly concerned with vulnerable residents who are living in three and four story buildings. And I sat down with the city of Vancouver and I said, Is this an issue? Why why is it so hard to just get a heat pump into a low rise MERB? And they said, Shauna, this is the biggest challenge. Like this this particular building architecture is about as difficult as it comes. And so then when I started to do the research, I realized they were right, it was extremely complicated. And so then that's where we put our first focus. Our second focus has really been on uh what we're seeing as a a serious emerging issue, which is the role of local governments with AI and data centers and how they navigate their way through those. So those are the things that urban climate leadership works on, helping cities navigate through the really difficult, difficult times. Yeah. Yeah, it's great.

Nikki Hill 22:22

And you ran for mayor of Vancouver in 2018. And uh so BC is just one of many provinces this fall heading into local government elections. And it feels like a very early start everywhere to that campaign season, which is unusual but uh making for interesting politics right now. You've talked before about cities being at the front edge of the climate crisis. How is climate policy faring in cities currently? And can you share any examples of a city that you think is doing climate action well right now?

SPEAKER_06 22:53

Thanks, Nikki. And yes, I did run for mayor. It feels like ancient history now and yes those campaigns are starting fast and purposely we're seeing the Vancouver campaign heat up already. But looking at municipalities and climate change, you know, I was really proud of the work and I can go back 20 years to the work that we started doing in Vancouver on climate. And I was extremely proud of Vancouver's leadership on climate policy. It wasn't just climate policy, it was economic policy as well because through the policies it then inspired a whole range of new businesses and innovations to emerge here. And I used to facilitate through carbon talks through renewable cities a number of the the dialogues that led to innovations here in Vancouver. And we had we attracted some of the best and the brightest to the city to lead that climate policy. Recently we've seen a real backsliding on climate policy I I um in Vancouver and I know we're seeing it in Edmonton and Calgary and even in Toronto, we're seeing either city councils backsliding or we're seeing state provinces encumber the role of municipalities being able to drive their climate policy. So it's a real shift and some of that I mean because I've worked in the United States and I've led Urban Sustainability Directors Network which is the association for uh the sustainability staff in cities in Canada and the United States I know that that is actually a trend and it's a conservative trend. It's one of the pages out of the mega handbook is stop cities from acting because they're closest to the people. I want to take a moment and just Nikki if it's okay I just want to say that cities are on the front line and it's really in municipalities and and we might not talk about it as climate change if we remember back in the late 80s early 90s and and think about um our interior communities dealing with pine beetle and the sector or farmers really trying to figure out when was the seeding time or you know the droughts or I think of my own where I'm from originally was Nelson wanting to go back to Nelson but I don't want to go back to Nelson anymore because the wildfire so much expense. Yeah. Any of those things happen it's local governments that people go to. And that so cities municipalities are constantly thinking about how do they serve the residents and protect them over the long term they're the ones that are seeing the insurance rises. They're the ones that are seeing that you know businesses can't get insurance or flood prone areas can't get insurance in Quebec for example. So this is a serious issue. We often forget the municipal pieces. And that's why I just wanted to put that front and center again municipalities are fundamental to climate action. It's why urban climate leadership focuses there but of course municipalities are never working alone they're working as an order of government you need multi-level climate action. So given that I can no longer say that Vancouver is my favorite city on climate action, I mean I could point to Montreal uh because they are doing because they have the alliance of BC I Quebec Hydro they've got the support of the Montreal or the uh the the provincial government but if I'm coming back home to British Columbia I'd probably say Victoria is where I'm looking at leadership right now. But I'm particularly proud of Victoria and New Westminster because they've just introduced the thermal regulations.

Tom Parkin 26:38

So great thanks well let's just kind of dive into that that mix a little bit more uh you've been working on a goal with municipalities this is a key uh they're key in this thing of um transitioning a lot of low rise multi-residential buildings over to energy efficient heat pumps uh and you've taken a kind of interesting approach to how to do this that I was hoping it could outline for us.

SPEAKER_06 27:05

Um pursuing this is really a kind of an economic strategy that builds a new sector rather than positioning it as you know here we are asking for something from government um and this approach has been you know you've pulled together some partners in a kind of nascent sector who could scale up to deliver the vision so t tell us about that and we're talking here about heat pumps in you know multi-residential low rise units but can this approach uh can it be applied in to other projects other issues I think it can so let me explain the approach a little bit more uh we were we wanted to find a solution that was a systems changing solution you you can go to government and ask for money and that's going to get you so far it's not gonna change the system and we have you know low rise these are the three and four story apartments and condominiums are the in British Columbia and many suburban areas of Canada they are the most prominent architectural feature you'll see that the the most important building form particularly for affordable houses think about where our seniors live our people living with disabilities our health center type housing and you see how prevalent this building form is. So we were looking for systems change. That's not going to come if you ask for government money it's gonna support the issue at that moment in that time as long as the government money is there. What we needed to do is develop a much more transformative solution that would unlock private capital. So when we started to look at what would it take in British Columbia we did I'm working with over 250 business leaders, financiers, all the housing providers that we have here in this in the in the built form and the concierges that help navigate folks through and the workers that are doing the contracting, have them all at the table and said, okay, so what's the solution? And one of the things I realized in British Columbia we have a sleeping giant here. We have an economic development strategy here that is very very exciting and unconventional. We often think dig in the ground resources that's what's going to deliver economic wealth actually look at the retrofit industry. So we've presented an offering to the provincial government that says with an investment through loan reserves through some investment in workforce workforce training a little bit of money to inspire the manufacturing and innovation sector and a little bit for the concierges we can unlock 1.5 billion in private capital. We can create 1900 new good long-term green jobs we can really reinforce what is a nascent well nascent because we don't see it doesn't mean it's not a powerful uh municipal our manufacturing and innovation sector one example shark energy here a BC based actually metro Vancouver based company 400% growth these are heat pump manufacturers 400% growth this year at least 400% projected next year but we don't know about them um we had to go searching for this manufacturing sector which is actually there the rest of the world knows about it we don't this is a competitive advantage for BC and if you start to think of the electricity the clean electricity we can actually by and I'm gonna get a little bit in the weeds by transforming electric baseboard heated low rise uh apartments and condominiums to energy efficient heat pumps we can save 1.5 billion in not having to build out electricity right through more dams. So we I mean think of we had in B BC we had 619 people die in 2020 without one heat dump just by putting uh transitioning 5,000 buildings to uh energy efficient heat pumps we can save 20 million in in those heat related hospitalization costs. So this is an economic strategy that I think is the way we need to be thinking about how we solve some of these intractable challenges that we have because you know it took us two years to figure it out. I'll be honest when we sat down and I did the first research I would never have known that there was the sleeping giant here of an economic powerhouse for BC and I'm really excited about what it could mean for our province.

Nikki Hill 31:35

Yeah and it's interesting I think and we talked about the Prime Minister Carney speech in Vancouver a couple of weeks ago as well and and heat pumps came up and and him talking about the energy transition in that that big speech we're seeing other jurisdictions look at some of these changes in response to the war in Iran like these are not um issues that are not you know they're now dominating a bit I think and and people starting to see them as a shift. So I think it's all very interesting and well timed.

SPEAKER_04 32:02

Yeah.

Nikki Hill 32:03

Absolutely and and building on that I think you know it it is those things we're talking about something like heat pumps as an economic driver, you know, we probably wouldn't have had 18 months ago and and we have seen 18 months in the last 18 months some of the fastest shifts in government policy direction in decades. But at the same time it does feel like sometimes that governments are a little bit less open to new policy approaches that could be providing some of these innovative solutions to geopolitical pressures that are sort of going back to some of the the the old systems versus looking at something that could be a new approach or drive a new sector. So you've taken a role of convener much of your career how do you see this role of stakeholders and helping governments find policy solutions and sort of what are the barriers that you've encountered in that I I think the days and and we probably remember from the 80s and 90s the arrogance of government sort of driving everything right.

SPEAKER_06 32:58

And I think those days are definitely over a government doesn't have the resources to be able to solve the problems that citizens expect them to solve. So the whole idea of convening and really bringing the players together that can support real change, grounding that in place is really important. And so I mean I actually think facilitation and convening is something that is something that is within the DNA of Canadians to be quite honest. And I think I I come out of a foreign policy background and it's the role we would often play in the international arena. So I've worked in that space globally for many many years. I know when I see uh something unique in a space when I'm convening so I'm looking for is there a high level of social capital meaning that is there a lot of connection is there a way that I can see this group moving to deliver that's a really important piece. So with the heat pump thing I in all my years, 40 years of convening and facilitating I had never seen such high capital capital among a group and so I knew something that there was something in BC that was unique that can be built upon. That's the kind of thing that we have to see government looking for I think that there's a lot more that government needs to do to actually open themselves. I also want to take a moment to defend our elected because I think that that there's a risk adversity for a good reason that many electeds and senior civil servants are feeling and that's coming because let's be honest we've seen a lot of attacks intentional attacks on our public service misinformation real disrespect of that role in public service. And I think that there's a role for all of us to play to lift each other up especially protect our public servants because they are working really hard on our behalf I mean that across political sex political ideologies I just think that we need to create the conditions that take the pressure off them having to deliver on everything and give them a chance to be a participant in the creation of alternatives in the creation. And so when you when we're doing that it's really really important that as we're looking at all the players that have a piece of the puzzle are at the table so the people on the front line the workers those that are communicating the narrative builders all of them are at that table trying to really grapple with the difficult issues. So you have to create safety in those spaces to enable people to actually take their hats off and look at the issues in a collaborative way. That's not an easy thing to do is easier than than it is.

Tom Parkin 35:40

Yeah I wanted to touch on another kind of transformative transformation idea that you you worked on in the past I think this is not your present work but Canada's world uh which was kind of an interesting take on or the way I read it an interesting take on foreign policy and kind of challenging myths about Canada this kind of old narrative which is you know no doubt still taken as true in some parts of the world that just sees our country as some you know little mini offshoot of French and British empires not as our own thing um which of course includes those colonial histories but it's far, far deeper and I'd say you know way more interesting. But Canada's world seemed to be this this effort to try and tell our story in a way that bolsters our international reputation um in order to improve international relationships and opportunities. So that just seems so massive how do you proceed on a task like that um and do you think that task that kind of approach of repositioning or helping people reunderstand Canada is more urgent in the MAGA area in the MAGA era thanks for raising Canada's global because I came out of my first 25 years was in foreign policy international global issues and one of the things that I had noticed and this was in the first years of the Harper administration is that Canada had a new nickname.

SPEAKER_06 37:10

You know we had always been the group that you wanted to convene and facilitate sessions and all of a sudden I was coming back from meetings with friends who had been part of the international environment and human rights consultations they said Canada's got a new nickname and I said what is it and they said uh it's a little bush and I said what is that yeah there's that one too yeah yeah yeah yeah we plant yeah door in the conference room corner didn't say anything but when we did it we were a little bush which was you know uh a reference yeah Bush Jr. Right so that was a real that kind of hit me and I realized that we were still kind of resting on these laurels of we were these peace builders and what we needed to do in Canada was to develop a narrative based on who we were as now as a country not who we were 50 years ago. And so it was the largest in engagement of Canadians in a foreign policy discussion ever. And hundreds well thousand I think there were 2500 people involved in that conversation and something or another right across the country. I think what's important about that conversation right now is that I mean I may not agree with what uh Prime Minister um uh Carney is doing right now in climate in fact I don't but what I will do is give him big marks high marks for his approach to foreign policy recognizes that not only do we bring our interests to the international arena we bring our assets and our values that's pretty critical he understands what it is to pursue a middle power initiative understands that what we need to bring into that international arena is those relationships. So yes our resources are important those are among our assets but more importantly is that we have a globally connected population. We have connections and intelligence about the rest of the world that very few countries have to the same weight as we do. And what we need to do in bringing that to the international for is we need to show up in those multilateral fora and ask for a rules-based international Reno. We need to build those relationships I have never I could never have imagined that Canada would have pivoted back as closely to Europe and to our other multilateral fora as fast as we have and I do have to give credit to Prime Minister Kearney for doing that. He gets he understands what it is to maneuver in multilateral fora that's a rare thing. And we've we've seen it with some of our better better leaders in the past and uh we're seeing it now. I wish of course that he would see that in the climate context as well and I'm hoping somewhere along the way he is but I don't hold out a lot of hope. Now in relationship because you brought up Meg and and I've spent some of my time in the United States and um I think we have to take the expansionism very seriously. This I do believe Meg is unhinged. I do believe that there is this absolute immaturity in understanding what global politics are like and and that and that what has been enabled in the states is um what I would call the worst of the worst of political machinations. But if we think for a second we're protected in Canada here, I think we are being deeply naive. And I think that the Prime Minister knows and understands that. So if I start to put that hat on, I think every decision that seems to be happening right now is how do we bolster ourselves um against a US intervention I think that we have potentials within Alberta through the separatist thing that that's an inroad I think the North is an inroad um I I spend some of my time in Point Roberts I can tell you that ICE is alive and well and surveillance is alive and well um I well we won't get into my own personal situation but it's it's how you maneuver through Meg is a really really fascinating conversation itself.

Nikki Hill 41:24

Yeah and I think one we we need to be having and they're gonna be having for a long time but not I don't think getting enough depth yet in Canada for sure um we're gonna do a little pivot here into housing policy where you've also had a strong focus and particularly around inequity in housing policy, which and housing continues, you know, poll after poll we're seeing housing still continuing to be a top concern for the public, at least in the top three across the country, particularly in some jurisdictions where they're more expensive. But it of course to move anything on housing requires significant policy levers and stakeholder buy-in and sort of see governments be able to move so far and then move back or or or try to get in line with where stakeholders are at and what they need. And then I think right now we're really seeing a lot of shifts as well for housing markets and and for those involved in the sector. So where do you see decision makers actually getting traction on housing policy changes?

SPEAKER_06 42:20

Well I think I want to call out one city in particular and um if you're from British Columbia you'll know that there was a time because of some municipal bylaws that the city of Burnham became this disaster area for housing. I mean it might have been good for those building big big skyscrapers but because of a municipal bylaw we saw the biggest dislocation of population in the history of Canada. Just when you think about it that's saying something and and that dislocation came through renovics and dem evictions as we saw so many of these low rise MERBs be destroyed and people displaced. So a a city Burnaby which I lived in growing up that never had a housing problem began to have a very serious housing problem. Well mayor Mike Hurley got um elected in 2018 and he got elected on a housing uh that he was going to change that situation and he asked me uh to uh facilitate his mayor's task force in affordable housing or on community housing and I remember at the time because I had uh facilitated the previous one in 2012 in Vancouver I'd learned a lot from that process that's one where we focused on building forms and there were so many things I wish we had done differently. So when I sat down with Mayor Hurley I said I have three conditions in saying yes on this I said the first is that you don't focus on building forms like what kind of housing you're going to build, you focus on the needs of the people of Burnaby so that everything in your policy meets those needs. The second thing you do is that you've got because you've got this problem of renovics and demovics, you've got a citizen it's almost shell shock in what's happened in this there's got to be a deep engagement with citizens in terms of refining that narrative and um and I brought colleagues from the Center for Dialogue really know how to do that work um into that conversation. And I said the third thing is if you do this, you got to see it through but at the end of it you know within two years you need to bring those players back together to evaluate your progress. To my surprise and and I really think it says a lot about Mayor Hurley he said yes. And then he brought the most exceptional planning staff to the table the city of Burnaby staff I I can't say enough good things about them. And we worked really hard for a seven month period through that and we had really you know we had the big developers at the table we had the tenants rights advocates acorns and others at the table we had the workers and the labor unions we had people who had been dem evicted all at the table and then we had the citizens dialogue that was kind of a a tango dance between the task force and the citizens process some taking leadership from the others at different stages. You know the policies that came out of Burnby through that I think are some of the best housing policies in the country the first time we really got a strong tenants relocation policy in play um really brought in uh really strong policies that today have been models for others. And so that would be the city where I think uh I would look to I know that there's been some really good work in Montreal some good work definitely some good work in Toronto and other communities um around the country but that's the one I'm closest to and and um excited by it sounds like a model others could use as well it was one of those ones where a city said you know we don't have all the we're not gonna try and solve this on our own we're really gonna it was authentic engagement and you know again that comes to leadership and have to again commend Mayor Hurley and you know what he ran the next time nobody ran against him. Yeah good politics is governance you can govern differently you can govern in concert with your communities in a more engaged way and I think that is the future.

Tom Parkin 46:22

Shauna listening to you it seems to me there's uh there's uh underpinning a lot of your work is some sort of theory of change um where do you think change happens where do you think it most effectively comes from running for City Hall engaging people I mean hearing a lot of different themes and what you're talking about. Just explore that what is your theory of change?

SPEAKER_06 46:48

Well I and and and and and I won't get too academic here. Yes on the four hours but I but I will say that I don't think power is monolithic. I actually believe that there are many ways in which power is constituted and reconstituted on a daily basis. And so I'm always looking for those spaces those social those political cultural economic spaces where you can apply pressure and create a systemic change. So that sort of in broad strokes my belief in in theory of change but what does that mean in practical implementation at implementation level it means that um the contractor matters it the farmer matters that you start to look at all of the players that bring a piece of that change to play. Like you've got to have those that are thinking broadly visionary. You need to have the communicators you need the artists that can bring about different ways of thinking and knowing that can challenge stereotypes you need people with frontline lived experience that can speak to what it's like you need people and and not one of the things I've learned as a facilitator there's only about 20% of us that feel really comfortable thinking about the future you need those futurists who can see a different way who can lead you need disruptors. I realize I spend so much of my time in institution protecting disruptors because there's nothing an institution hates more than somebody that's disrupting all the time and disruptors can be very divergent in their thinking protect them you've got to have them in the room so for me my theory of change is highly relational I spend more of my time in conversations helping to keep people seeing where are they moving to what's that Northstar what's the pressure point they're trying to apply so that they can they can create and apply that pressure in a way that's going to create the change that they want. And it tends to be um a little laborious at times um but it's it's actually from a cultural social economic perspective it's it's actually really exciting work and um and can go somewhere. So it keeps me going.

Nikki Hill 49:19

Yeah I feel like it's energizing and hopeful work as well and and having the pleasure of seeing you in action at different points in the last couple of decades as well I I get that from that process too. So it's all very appreciated. Thanks for joining us today Shauna we really appreciate you taking time out of your very busy schedule uh and and joining the show and we maybe we'll have you back at some point in the future these are important conversations for the country and lots of models here that can be pulled out and applied. So we're gonna take a break and come back with Love It or Heave It. Thanks so much. Before we wrap up we've come to the part of the show that we call Love It or Heave It about something that one of us loves and wants to keep or something we'd like to heave and forget forever. What do you have this week, Tom?

Tom Parkin 50:17

Well Nikki, I am loving watching and re-watching Wab Canoe publicly calling out Daniel Smith on what he called her fake framing of a recent recent court decision. Smith said that a court had ruled that her separatist petition gatherers had a duty to consult First Nations and that that decision was obviously a faulty decision. Seems she'd said that in private too and clearly Wad Canu privately corrected her but in in a kind of a a a rude move she repeated re repeated this fake take in public in front of Canu and her fellow premiers I guess thinking that everybody would just say nothing and let this brazen lie just float out there unreputed. But Canu uh pointed out the court did not find the duty to consult fell on the separatist movement. It fell on her UCP government it fell on her and she did not do it. So the only person responsible for the court tossing out the petitioner's question was Daniel Smith. And so Karma's a bit of a bitch there, isn't it? It was a pretty brutal takedown in a week when polls showed Federalist voters shifting from the UCP to the NDP Separatists outnumbering Federalists about two to one amongst UCP supporters. So increasingly becoming the Separatist Party in the NDP aligning as the Federalist Party and according to that same Angus Re poll released last week the parties are statistically tied now UCP 46 Alberta NDP 45. So for years Smith has been stoking the threat of separatism higher to leverage even you know higher more lucrative deals for oil and gas companies mostly foreign often using our fake facts framing them to mobilize the haters to carry your message so for me seeing that cynical strategy so publicly hit the wall of WAB was the honesty that we deserve and need more of if we really love this country.

Nikki Hill 52:18

Yeah it was uh I think really great I think to watch the Western premieres conference as well and just see the the premieres from Canoe to Eevee to others be I think be so strong on that Teen Canada approach again and it just kind of a wild time for them to all ahead to Canonaskis for Western premieres this last week.

Tom Parkin 52:37

So yeah we're good Eevee and canoe were were we're good and the interesting thing with Scott Moe's like I'm I'm not I'm barely even here.

Nikki Hill 52:44

Yeah I noticed that like um or I don't want to be here for this conversation.

Tom Parkin 52:49

Yeah I thought I can pull a deal and I'm um I'm gonna hide now so yeah for that one. Yeah what what about you?

Nikki Hill 52:58

Loving or eating her freak I am loving that the spring session of the BC legislature has finally wrapped up along with the BC conservative leadership race. I think the overlap between those two has really created some difficult moments in BC, strained relationships, shake and trust really increased misinformation and narratives that I think have even spilled into the national conversation now we're seeing more and more so particularly around where we've seen public concern and confusion growing around issues like private property rights in the context of the Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous People Act being leveled into this sort of political fray. And then the the relationship into the legislature where talk of amendments and and ongoing discussions with First Nations leaders and government were the dominating piece here, no matter I think how much the government tried to switch the agenda into jobs and major projects and economic growth. So you know add into that really highly troubling moments like the use of a slogan associated with Nazi Germany on the floor of the legislature by an MLA. And I think in many other times where I think being in the legislature was was challenging for people at moments and sort of hearing where discourse is getting to it's clear I think this has just been a the first six months of the year have been very fraught and negative for BC politics. And it hasn't just been the politics I think you know it was a tough budget like many provinces tough stakeholder complex management after it really increasing pressures on all types of sectors from affordability issues and and governments cutting back on programs and funding. So I think you know it's made for a long year we're not even halfway through it. And then of course it's only June it's only you know we've we've just got through this and now we're into this whole new phase. And I'll I'll just I would both flag that we're recording before we have the BC conservative leadership vote. But you know that has been an added pressure I think into having multiple candidates really trying to drive issues to win that leadership particularly around Indigenous rights and DRIPA. So as we come back, we've got a few months here which I think is important. They don't come back until October now this is heavy constituency time getting into planning caucus retreats and of course for a conservative party a new leader probably new critics new strategy new staff all of the things being new to give them a time to figure out what their party stands for when they've got that new leader in there. So I think you know summer matters. I think it's gonna be an important time for all parties to reflect on the last six months and how they managed to navigate or didn't the some of these complex issues. But I think most importantly how they'll participate in sort of cutting down the disinformation and the political noise because you know no matter who is in government here, having these challenging narratives particularly around indigenous rights doesn't serve anyone very well, not only on the economic front and certainty, but also and you know what we've talked about before on the show in terms of increases in anti-indigenous hate and so there's a role here for rebuilding relationships this summer and and I I think getting regrounded in values are kind of across the board.

Tom Parkin 56:16

Yeah. Well you've heard uh from Nikki and me we're both loving things this week that's good news so you can email us at leftees to westgmail.com and let's talk about what you're loving or eating. And also remember to tap the follow button on your podcast better. Make sure that you get a reminder our next show on next Monday with Stefan Loven former Prime Minister of Sweden and current president of the Party European Socialists and in the week weeks after we have Jim Stanford and Carlo Beck joining us so you won't want to miss that. So uh Nikki have a great week and we'll see you next week.

SPEAKER_00 56:49

All right take care thanks for joining Left East to West with hosts Nikki Hill and Tom Parker. We'd love to hear your comments ratings follows and shares it helps people find us. To become a left east to west community member and to help us reach even more Canadians subscribe using the link in the show notes. You can watch us on YouTube or lesson wherever you get your favorite podcasts. Just search for left east to west and subscribe I'm Doug Hamilton signing off for Left East to West I'll see you next time