Canada: a future Nordic social democracy?

Stefan Löfven, former prime minister of Sweden and now president of the Party of European Socialists, talks with Tom about the Nordic model, the key role played in it by the labour movement, and its ability to deliver strong economic and social results.

Nikki dives into the results of the B.C. Conservative leadership race and how Kerry-Lynne Findlay will shape the contest leading up to the election in 2027.

Tom looks into a recently promoted success of Mark Carney's Major Projects Office and finds it has little to do with creating jobs or speeding permits for projects and a lot more to do with buckets of public money for G7 priorities. 

Transcript

Welcome!

Tom Parkin 0:26

Welcome to Left East West with me, Tom Parkin.

Nikki Hill 0:30

And me, Nikki Hill, asking a question of Tom. What is social democracy anyway? Is it a value set? Is it a critique? Is it a thing? Or a range of things?

Tom Parkin 0:41

Well, Nikki, I I don't know, but we are going to sit down with somebody who has a lot of insight on that. Uh is Stefan Lofen. He's the former prime minister of one of the world's most fully developed social democracies, Sweden, to talk about the Nordic model. And central to that model is high union membership that makes workers social partners in the economy. And uh Mr. Lofen himself was a union president before he stepped into the role as the leader of the Social Democratic Party and then Prime Minister or a position he held for seven years. So uh kind of exciting interview. I think will give us some insights on make us reflect on maybe, you know, what are we trying to build? What does it look like? Um Stefan is no longer the president, uh sorry, the prime minister, he's the president of the Party of European Socialists, which is the association of uh center-left and left political parties across Europe. Uh whether they're in the European Union or not includes the British Labor Party, which okay, let's not get into the debate about whether anyway, whether they're left.

Nikki Hill 1:41

But uh the rabbit hole.

Tom Parkin 1:43

Yeah, that's for a different episode, I think.

Nikki Hill 1:47

Uh and because of the time zone difference between Stockholm and Vancouver, this is Tom's interview. Um, we have some fantastic guests though coming up in Canadian time zones that let me get up on time uh coming soon. So, including Ontario MVP leader Merritt Stiles, we have economist Jim Stanford, and I have Saskatchewan MVP leader Carla Beck coming up. So check out Apple Podcasts, Spotify, whatever you're listening to, tap that follow button so you get alerts when our episodes are up, and you'll see that new left east to west in your feed. So we're gonna have Stefan Loven coming out first this week below the fold, tracking a couple of important news stories that didn't make national headlines and that you might have missed. Listeners

Some Carney misdirection about a Quebec graphite mine

Nikki Hill 2:42

may recall seeing the prime minister at a Quebec graphite mine in mid-May, or maybe not, which is why it's a below-the-fold story. It was a national story, but not a top story. The prime minister pitched it as a jobs announcement, said it showed the value and the quickness of the major projects office approval process, which has been a big headliner.

Tom Parkin 3:02

Yeah, it's been a major uh signature, really, for him. And we've often heard the refrain that kind of pairs up with this, that this is all about overcoming the Canadian disease of not being able to get major projects done. Uh, and it's all kind of not so subtle jab or dig at environmental laws and indigenous consultation. And that's kind of the rationale between uh behind the major projects office and uh it's pair, the Bill 5, current my Mark Carney's Bill Five, which allows exemptions from environmental laws, occupational health and safety laws, and such uh at projects in designated special economic zones. And all this gets managed by the new major projects office. And back, yeah, Nikki, back on May 20, Mark Kearney was at the Meadowinny Graphite Mine, which is about 130 kilometers north of Montreal, giving praise to his major projects office. He said the MPO had approved what's going to be the largest graphite mine in the G7 and touted the quickness of the Major Projects Office approval, noting it had only been referred to the MPO a few months before in November of 2025. And Nikki, that puzzled me because I knew somewhere back in my mind that I had read about this mine before and that it had been it had been under construction some years ago. And so I thought, well, how could it be proceeding back then if it didn't have uh its environmental permits in place? So I looked back and yes indeedy, the Meadowinny Wine mine uh did have the necessary permits. It got them on February 10th, 2021, more than five years ago. Uh on that day, the mine owner, Nouveau Mond Graffite Graphite Inc., put out a press release saying they had all the required permits and were looking forward to starting construction in Q2 2021. But then the project stalled. The project didn't stall because of environmental laws that you know that mean Canada can't get major projects done. Uh the project, the problem was that it couldn't attract the investment. And cash is what the major project office uh provided, not permits. So in March, the major project office poured $459 million into the mine from the export development from Export Development Canada and the Canadian Infrastructure Bank, public money. Uh in April, the mining company raised a further $297 million from private equity placements bought by ENI, which is an energy company majority owned by the government of Italy, uh the Canada Growth Fund, which is uh fund of the Government of Canada, and Investissement Quebec on behalf of the Government of Quebec. So this is more public money with Italy now involved. Just after this three-quarters of a billion dollars of public money, the company raised ninety-six million in a public share offering, which I'm no expert on this, but uh it seemed to me to be kind of paltry compared to all that uh public money. But the prem the PM says the project will eventually draw $1.8 billion in private investment. So I guess we'll see. So all this is pretty deep under the fold, but let's go uh one level deeper. The sudden interest in pumping public money into this mine is geopolitical. Graphite is needed for batteries, and about two-thirds of graphite is mined in China. Uh a year ago, June 16 and 17, 2025, the G7 leaders met in Canada, and they decided that meeting to create the G7 Critical Minerals Production Alliance, backed with a commitment to use industrial policy where necessary to secure critical minerals like graphite. So I think we all get what's going on here, uh, and that this is a much larger discussion about Canada in the context of the US-China competition, rivalry, geopolitics. But I think there's a couple of uh key points to reflect on outside of that. One, uh Prime Minister Kearney is engaging in a bit of misdirection here. He said his major projects office and his bill five were because we needed to end-run environmental rules, and he was pretty kind of suggesting that this quick approval was proof positive of the benefit of his MPO. But really what they just did is mix in a bunch of cash. And that doesn't take an MPO, and that has nothing to do with the environment, indigenous consultation or anything like that. So that was a bit of a misdirection. It's not about jobs. Not really. It's not about environmental red tape, not at all. And it's certainly not about elbows up uh unless you mean elbows up against China. Uh so the second point, I think, Carney and the G7 aren't leaving it to market forces to solve this access to critical minerals problem. They reshape markets and they're deploying industrial policy to make sure that the access to these resources is secured. Again, we can put aside the debate for a second about how and who and who gets control of them. But I think the point here is for me, Nikki, when in it comes to questions like this, government gets its hands around the problem and makes sure it happens. But when it comes to our problems, like expensive housing, high food prices, a million and a half people unemployed, carbon emissions, Carney says he'll leave it to the private market to solve the problem. And that just makes me feel like uh we're less priority than uh you know, some you know, the global politics and we're just uh we're just kind of left to left to fend for ourselves.

Nikki Hill 8:44

Yeah. Yeah. I mean graphite is in in high demand, but it's interesting after all that public money's poured in, woo who gets the graphite from that mai.

Tom Parkin 8:52

Yeah, I I didn't look into that too much. It seemed to be a bit difficult. I assume that there are supply contracts in place. Uh and I think we should be able to see those contracts because we paid for the supply. But I I think this leads to a couple more questions about Mark Carney's resource development strategy. One, are we getting the best price when we sell this? Are Canadians getting the best price back for our resources? And and two, um, are these resources going for uses that strengthen Canada? Uh or is this really about strengthening the president of the United States who's threatening Canada? That would be my worry. Anyway, the supply agreements would help us understand that, and we I think we should see if we can dig to find them. Okay. Now, Nikki, you've been updating us on the BC

The BC Conservative leadership race is over

Tom Parkin 9:42

conservative leadership race, and it's been pretty eventful, but now it's over. Uh, what can we expect from new BC conservative leader, Carrie Lynn Finlay? And why should progressives outside of BC be paying attention?

Nikki Hill 9:56

Yeah, we definitely had a a long leadership race for the BC conservatives, started in January, wrapped up on May 30th. Um, and I think, you know, it was also kind of a challenging time period overlapping with the legislature, overlapping with conversations about we've talked about before on the show, about DRIPA. Um, and so it was actually like a pretty polarizing period of time in BC politics with all of these different dynamics going on at once and politics sort of coming into the fray on policy development, too. But Carolyn Finley won. She got 51% of the vote. It was a pretty tight vote. She edged out her nearest uh competitor, political commentator, Carolyn Elliott, who got 49. They're actually pretty close, I think, when we pulled the numbers in. And then there was a period where it wasn't really clear if former um BC Liberal cabinet minister Ian Black was gonna pull through with some votes. But in ranked ballots, how those votes fall, of course, is always really important. And they all continue to give Finlay uh a lead on all four ballots. So it was very interesting. It was a little bit of a uh it was a fast, they had a pretty good fluid voting system. We found out the results on each four ballots really quickly. Uh, lots of, I think, modernization of their system. But, you know, it was pretty firm there all the way along for Carolyn Finley. There was a final slate with uh Finley, Elliott, and then and Black, but also Yuri Fulmer and then Peter Milibar, who was the only sitting MLA that was running for the role and actually came in last, which was really interesting. So, and there were about six other candidates that, you know, would do a different points, mostly throwing their support behind uh the ones that stayed in the race. So it was a very divisive race. We certainly, and actually, you know, I think in the aftermath, if you you spend too much time on social media, like I do watching it, it's still very divisive. I actually haven't seen an aftermath of a leadership race like this in a while. I used to make it really striking how nice we are as new democrats after a leadership race compared to what's going on in BC right now with the very public sniping at each other. Um, so quite a dynamic here. But and Finley, I think herself didn't shy away in any way from elevating a lot of those tensions in the race, particularly when it came to sort of this purity test concept for social conservatives and rejection of the sort of BC liberals, which is a chunk of this caucus and a chunk of the membership uh and and their being in the race and where the party wants to go to. Her platform was more freedom, less government, and then really about keeping the conservatives into this pure social, firmly social conservative party versus a larger tent that we tend to see here. And in the last couple of weeks, you know, we see faith, family, freedom, really the big concept she's talking about. But she's not wasted any time stepping fully into the role of leader of the BC conservatives. So kudos to her there. She's been out doing media, she's been really clear. Like I think we're as we get to know her and the public more, um, it is very clear to see that continuation of her campaign message, that value set, very populous, not a shift here. Uh, she, you know, did things like head to Alberta in her first week to do a fundraising event with Premier Danielle Smith. Um, raise some eyebrowing out there. Yeah, raise some eyebrows. But I think again, showing us who she wants to be seen as, that, you know, connection to values and connection to that movement that she's part of. And I think more eyebrows sort of raised um recently, too, where she posted an endorsement from Pierre Pollyeb. So, you know, some folks are like, why would you do that? He's down in the polls. What is that signal? And I think for her, that is those signals of showing who her base is and who she's talking to. She tries to frame herself. The other interesting piece here is she brought in a chief of staff, Chris Delaney, who has a long history in the social conservative movement in BC, uh, was at some point himself, uh, about 2001, uh, was trying to unite right-wing parties in BC under a BC Unity party label that didn't last super long, but he's been, you know, appeared at different points. He's known for really kind of similar to our Finleys going, trying to keep the conservative in the Conservative Party of BC. He left the BC conservatives at some point because they were looking too much like the BC Liberals. He's very, you know, again, sort of peer here. So as we look at this kind of big tent project that she has with a caucus that is made up of, you know, conservatives, social conservatives, former BC United BC liberals, including former cabinet ministers. You know, there's I think a lot of signals here about where she's going to continue to go, which is also having some ripples in BC politics. The NDPs are trying to define her pretty quickly in terms of her background, of tying her to Trump, to MAGA values. And she's really pushing back here, trying to paint the uh BC NDP as extremists and ideologues already. So, you know, we're in for a really long couple of years here, I think, in BC politics already. But she's she's starp, I think. A lot of people were surprised. But if you look at her record and sort of her depth within the conservative movement, she has been a minister of natural revenue under Stephen Harper. She's a lawyer. You can see that when she does interviews. You really can actually see her performing as a lawyer pretty clearly as she defines herself. Um, and I think sort of creates the very blunt, very um upfront image that she's trying to portray as a leader right now.

Tom Parkin 15:22

Okay, so she's done some things, but she's she's not an MLA. Um MP. Um she was elected, defeated, elected, defeated again as an MP for South Surrey White Rock. Yeah. Um doesn't have a seat. So uh what's she gonna do about it? What do you what do you think it happens there?

Nikki Hill 15:41

Yeah, it's it's kind of been the biggest question since her victory night because she has been clear she wants a seat. Sometimes leaders, you know, will say they don't want a seat for a while because they want to get on tour. Um, we've seen Abby Lewis see that federally, but um she has said right away she wants a seat. So she's got this very unique dynamic where a seat uh exists within her household. Um her husband, Brent Chapman, was elected in 2024, controversial campaign of his own where many were calling for his resignation because of racist statements. So she's indicated she plans to get a seat as soon as possible. She can't be the leader of the official opposition in the legislature without a seat, but we are on break here on the session until October. So there's a lot of questions, of course, on if it's you know Brent Chapman that's gonna need to step back or someone else. And and Brent Chapman doesn't seem to be stepping back right now. In fact, um, even he has been had some health issues he's been in and out with. But also, I actually think all of a sudden he's a little bit more profile in community than we've seen him in a bit as well. So really, you know, interesting kitchen table conversations going on, I bet. But um last time we had a in the BC Liberals had a a seat when Christy Clark was elected and didn't have her own seat as leader. Um someone did step back pretty quickly and then and got that seat back themselves when she found a new one. So, you know, it's sort of the who's gonna step back in the right spot. And is anyone gonna step back is is really the dynamic.

Tom Parkin 17:05

And until then, I mean, she's got to get well, she doesn't have to get paid, but I'm assuming she's getting paid, and that's a drain on the party's resources.

Nikki Hill 17:12

So yeah, I think they announced about a $170,000 salary that uh recently, which, you know, I think again, I've I've worked within the NDP when there's been unelected leaders, they need to be able to do their jobs and have some income while they're doing this, but they have found that that filler and their fundraising's been solid. So, you know, the money's there to do it right now. But she's gotta and she's gotta get out because I think um she did jump right away into one-on-one meetings with MLA. There's been caucus meetings that do have the benefit of the summer legislative break here. But I mean, I think that conversations with her own caucus have to be ongoing because there's all sorts of other things at play here as well, in terms of how long, like or if some of those former BC United folks stay within the caucus. There's a lot of questions going on right now. I think what's interesting though is, you know, um some people, I would say political watchers sort of dismissing her a little bit too early here. And I think what we are seeing, we've seen a few polls already that are really tight. BC polls are always really tight between the two main parties. It's not unusual to have that polarization. But I think that um what we are seeing here, some of the regions in the province, where very early days, of course. You know, you've been a leader for a couple of weeks, polls don't necessarily reflect what people know about you. But I think we are seeing some changes when we know younger, younger people are, you know, definitely more disenfranchised right now, seeing the struggle with housing, affordability, and jobs, that we are seeing some shifts in a couple of the early polls of young voters or voters in areas that have been sort of lower mainland traditional NDP strongholds would consider the conservatives. So um, you know, really paying attention there, I think, to more less on the conservative side and more to what voters are are feeling about, you know, current geopolitical pressures and what the impact is of that on their lives and how governments are responding. So I think um like she has the ability, I think, and this is why she can't be underestimated, to have that very clear communication style that may actually speak to some of those young voters who are are feeling that pressure. That being said, there was a new Legère poll that showed that 72% of um people surveyed knew that there was a new BC conservative leader, but only 26% had any familiarity with Carolyn Finley. So she's got a big job to do there.

Tom Parkin 19:35

Yeah. Well, it was nothing like the, you know, a a true believer can be very convincing. And she just strikes me as like her convictions are not uh tactical, they are bread and the bone kind of things. And yeah, people will find that appealing because, you know, she's just talking the truth kind of stuff. And yeah, uh, you know, BC is no uh you know, it's one from the East, uh, but we'd like to watch BC politics because it's so fascinating. And uh things can change very dramatically. I mean, that's been the history there. Uh you know, Silkreds uh crashing in uh with Vanderzam and then Christy Clark and her uh whole era. Um so you know, we've had the BC NDP in power now for how many years? It'll be 10 next year. Ten years. Okay. So they've they they've run a long part here, and I mean, I guess between you and me, well, we want to see them rejuvenate and win again. But um, you know, there are other people, and if they don't get what they want, then yeah, there's been this tradition of let's go to the right and let's let them run the place for a while.

Nikki Hill 20:46

Yeah. Yes, we like to keep it uh definitely spicy here in BC politics just to entertain all of you outside of BC. Um, but and I think this is the other dynamic that's going on here that really watching is this swirling piece. So, you know, when the Socreds and Vander Zam and Christy Clark and Gordon Campbell and others had long-term, there was 16 years after the NDP lost in 2001, uh, where there was a 16-year BC liberal government. And I think, but that was really formed as well with this united coalition of free enterprise that being able to keep some of the conservative liberal base all together here. So credit's same, it's always been this trying to keep these different parties which could form, because there could, you know, there's still many types of right-wing plinter parties that could happen. Um, but really important in here is that kind of former BC United, former, well, they're former BC United, former BC Liberal, but they're they are like traditional conservative federal liberal voters that I think in many cases did go to the BC NDP in the last election because the conservatives weren't the vehicle after BC United folded and handed over not only candidates, but locked up the party brand so no one could use it. And the only other entity was the BC Conservative. So I think what's coming out of this leadership really quickly from some of these camps is and more in the free enterprise side of that sort of center right is there is this the time now to get something back that is that entity in the middle? And coincidentally, someone uh must have gone to had that question too, because there was a recent poll from Research Co. that was asking the public if they felt that there was an appetite for that center right new party in BC. So I think it's like for those folks right now, it's kind of judging strategically. Do they want to put like their money where their mouth is and decide this is the time that they could actually get something up and running? There's been the BC Liberal brand has been tossed around. There was a BC Liberal organizing meeting recently. The funny thing about the BC Liberal brand is it's also been tied up and locked in that safe by Kevin Falcon with the BC United brand because it's connected legally still. So you can see. Oh, I see.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

They still own the name?

Nikki Hill 22:54

Yeah, because all they did was a rebrand, right? So in the elections BC, yeah. So you can't just kickstart, as far as I understand it. There's it's still very connected. You can't re-kickstart that. But we do have Center BC here, which was started by former BC United, has an AGM coming up. So, you know, we may, we don't know really at this stage if that if the folks who are in that more former BC United, federal liberal, federal conservative space are going to say, okay, let's give this a shot, or if they're going to put all their juice into the newly Carrie Linton Lee party.

Tom Parkin 23:25

So this is this is fascinating to me because I I mean, again, from from far away, I was always kind of taught that, you know, the the the BC the Socreds were then the BC Liberals were federal conservatives and federal liberals working together under one in in one vehicle.

Nikki Hill 23:41

They happen, yeah, a lot of times.

Tom Parkin 23:43

And this is not. This is not federal liberals and conservatives, federal conservatives working together. This is poly ed conservatives and far right that's a little rough, but and right-wing uh conservatives, um, with the liberals left out of the equation now. So this r idea of reviving it to me is interesting, but also these are the folks that just folded up shock because everybody hated them just one election ago. And and yet we see a poll that says that they could be a significant force, even though just you know, recent so recently people were like, these this Kevin Falcon and this party is so bad, they should just go away. Um and it kind of reminds me, because we see this in Ontario where we got a leaderless Liberal Party doing well in the polls. And it makes me think, you know, people have this conception, but then when the reality comes along, when we when we really see um Bonnie Crombie, when we really see Kevin Falcon, you know, it becomes not so attractive anymore.

Nikki Hill 24:43

We're yeah, and some of that I think too was you know leader at the time. I think I always sort of describe the Kev Kevin Falcon changes. He just split the table because he got sick of you know, the movement telling him he need his polls were bad and he needed to go, right? You're like instead of opening up a race, he went, fine, I'm out of here and has locked it down for two years. So we're uh you know, it's gonna be really interesting. And I think this is a you know a big summer ahead for David Easy and the NVP to do that, defining themselves as well and really thinking about how to define Carolyn Finlay in the context of what voters are looking for and and where we see some of these shifts in voter sentiment. Because we do have a long runway here, hopefully till the next election, even with just a slim majority. And it's uh regrouping time on all sides, I think, this summer.

Tom Parkin 25:28

Yeah. And you're in Kelowna right now. I mean, that's where the the NDP is having a caucus meeting over the next couple days.

Nikki Hill 25:34

Caucus retreat and then training weekend. Yes, that's the lovely view behind me, is Kelowna. Yes. So this is you know, this is the season for caucus retreats and and to meet people together.

Tom Parkin 25:44

So chance for them to reflect on where they stand, um and I suppose, and and what and how they address uh both the public and the opposition, the new opposition leader that they face.

Nikki Hill 25:56

Yeah, yeah. They're touring in the last couple of days trying to do that. So interesting weekend.

Tom Parkin 26:01

Yeah. Here's my only thought for you know what it what it's worth is I know that new Democrats will want to sink their teeth into her identity politics or mega politics. And that's just such an obvious and an and enticing target. Um and and not that people shouldn't do that, um, but uh not forget that what people want isn't just new Democrats attacking conservatives. They they want jobs, they want the rent to be decent, they want an affordable home, food prices, etc. Um, and if the EB government, the NDP government doesn't keep working on that, doesn't keep messaging on that, if she's not on that, if she's off on her MAGA trip, it won't like it won't matter because she won't need to have a plan for that kind of stuff, because that's not the topic. So, you know, I think I think still the NDP, in my opinion, has an advantage there on the economy if it can focus on those things that are everyday concerns to people and let her go and do her mega thing and throw the occasional punch in that direction. But mostly stay focused on, you know, stick stick to your own knitting, NDP.

Nikki Hill 27:10

Yeah, I was uh you know, uh Pig her and Clona Premier speaking last night, and and I think that was the heavy play here. They've been up here too, and they've been you know doing announcements with forestry companies, housing, student housing, like going out and and talking about the economic drivers in the community, the wine industry out for an event last night. So I think you know, big supporter of the wine industry. But yeah, yes, I enjoyed the wine industry being out last night. Yes, it's good. Um, but I think that is that is gonna be the challenge of sticking into the message about what's going right because now you've got a pretty strong competitor telling everybody what's going wrong.

Tom Parkin 27:42

Right. Exactly, exactly. Okay. All right, well, a good story, and uh now into the next phase. So we'll see.

Nikki Hill 27:49

We're into the next phase, thankfully, because that was a long one we just had.

unknown 27:52

Yeah.

Tom Parkin 27:53

All right, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back with uh former Sweden Prime Minister, Stefan Lofen.

Stefan Lofven -- Can Canada become a Nordic social democracy

Tom Parkin 28:10

So a special international welcome to our left left east of to West guest today, Stefan Lofen. Thank you for joining us. Thank you very much for having me. I I really look forward to this. Oh, great. Mr. Lofen, you got your start in politics at the age of uh, as I understand it, maybe about 23, when you were working as a welder and you were elected as a union rep. And in 2005, you became the national president of that same union, Industry Faket Metal, then the leader of the Social Democratic Party of Sweden in 2012, prime minister in 2014, serving until 2021 when you passed the torch to the next Social Democrat PM, Magdalena Anderson, and now president of the Party of European Socialists and an association of parties across Europe. And you're joining us today from Stockholm. Is that right?

SPEAKER_00 29:02

Yes, I am Stockholm, yes. And uh let me also say that I I enjoy doing this uh program also because it's uh from Canada. And uh I've always uh we have a lot in common. Uh two countries far away geographically, but we do have uh also uh uh quite a lot in common.

Tom Parkin 29:23

I was refle i I stumbled across the fact that uh a nine percent of Canada's surface area is water, is fresh water. Wow. As is Sweden. Yeah so that's something I think culturally we must have together. And I'm wondering, do people like like fishing and uh and and and you know going into the forest and enjoying nature and northern skippers?

SPEAKER_00 29:45

Yeah, people really love that. So a lot of people are out there in the forest or fishing or uh in the mountains, or yeah, so that's very popular.

Tom Parkin 29:55

Yeah, so a lot, a lot of a lot in common geostrategically as well. Um we have neighbors sometimes that can be we have a neighbor anyway who's giving us a hard time right now. We don't know. If you put it that way, yes. Um how does your background coming from the labor movement shape your view about politics and the role of government? Uh is it common that Swedish Social Democrat MPs come from the labor movement?

SPEAKER_00 30:23

Aaron Ross Powell Well, uh the last question first, uh, we we do have uh MPs uh from the with a background in the trade union. As trade unionists, you always want more of that. So uh and it has decreased over the years if you compare it to, let's say, 20, 30 years ago. It has decreased somewhat, but there is uh quite a number of people with with that background. And I I am convinced that your background plays a role also in your adult life. And of course, being uh uh a metal worker, uh a trade unionist, yes, of course I brought uh thinking from those years and those experiences uh into the political life. Absolutely. The the the issue, the topic of of um employment, for example, has been uh since I know that that's so crucial for an individual, uh that you you that you can work, uh you earn your own money. It's a it's a it's a freedom issue, uh, but it also pride in that. Uh and uh but not only have a job, but but a safe job, a good job, uh with fair wages and all that. Yes, of course I've I I had that with me uh when I joined uh politics. Absolutely.

Tom Parkin 31:45

Now, I think for most Canadians when we think about social democracy or contrast it with liberalism or conservatism, they probably think about it as a distinct set of values uh or a set of policy choices, or maybe uh uh an electoral base. Uh and that could be all be true. But what I think, Mr. Lufen, what I think you can really help us with is to help us see social democracy more concretely, to help us be clearer in our understanding of uh, you know, help us figure out what we are trying to build block by block. The model Sweden has pursued, you call the Nordic model, which has an organized labor market, sector-wide bargaining. Uh who are the Nordics? And can you describe this model for us a little bit, especially around the industrial relations?

SPEAKER_00 32:36

Well, the Nordics, and uh as we also have a very close cooperation, both trade unions and uh social democratic parties, uh Iceland, uh Denmark, Norway, Finland, Sweden. And uh we do have similar uh policies, not not uh 100% uh uh the same, but but similar, built on the same pillars, you can say. And uh one of them being that the the labor market parties uh have quite a free uh role, uh a big responsibility in the society. So uh politics uh as has handed over that responsibility uh to the labor market parties, and that that that means that we have um uh participation uh from both employers and employees' trade unions, uh, which I think is a very, very good way of developing the labor market because uh the the the parties and the labor market knows so much more about the the labor market than politicians do. So we have a basic legislation, yes, uh on workers' rights on co-determination and and uh and so on. But the the actual um uh uh activities are decided mainly from the employers and the employees. And then there's um so so let me anyway go back to the values that you said, because I think this connection is extremely important that we we uh our basic values are about the the absolutely the the equal value for all of all human beings. We're the value, we're different as persons, thank God, but we are the value is the same. And that has to be expressed, in our view, in the society, meaning that uh equality is another value that is extremely important. And the only way we believe to reach uh equality is uh is solidarity, that we help one another, so we give one another good chances in life. To be more concrete, it means that uh children, uh all children in a public health care system uh need to be taken well care of from the very beginning, and of course the mothers, the maternity uh care uh and health care and um uh daycare, but also schools, because if you mean something with equal value, you you also need to give all children uh the best possible start. That should not be uh a thing only for for those who can afford a good school. So we pay taxes into the system and we discuss how to use these taxes. One of the things that we use them for is is schools, so that every child has the best possible chance to to reach uh an adult life as a free and strong individual. Uh so and but also the public health care, another thing, uh social insurances, if you're sick, if you're uh unemployed for a while, you you need to make sure that you can handle that and pay the daily costs, uh the the the the the food and the the rent and everything, because if you don't, uh that all that will affect the individual, but it will also affect the economy in the country, because it it will affect the consumption, the the possibility to consume. So it goes hand in hand that believing, including everybody, I would say, is the key. If you include everybody in the labor market, in schools and and in the society, it's good for everybody individually, but it also builds a stronger, more resilient society. And uh so going from the values to the very concrete um um things in in healthcare or school or or pension system or whatever is that connection is extremely important.

Tom Parkin 36:57

Mm-hmm. Good for the individual, good for the group. That's uh Yeah. Interesting way of looking at it and and expressing it. And also your labor, the way that your labor market is organized. Well, in Canada, about thirty odd, thirty-three or thirty-five percent of people are members of a trade union, but it's much, much higher in the in the Nordics. So the labor movement can speak for almost everybody.

SPEAKER_00 37:22

Yes. Uh so organizing is is of course crucial. And we have seen also here a slight decrease in in uh the percentage, but still it's very high, 75-80%, depending on what union you uh you look at. Uh but in general. So yeah, there is uh uh an incentive for people to be part of the union because the union has so much uh important tasks to fulfill. So so and that is uh also because the society, as I said earlier, uh politics gave uh the social partners their their uh tasks. And that would also mean that the trade union is is there, is participating in codetermination, uh, is active in the unemployment funds, for example. They're also paying into these funds. The the government is paying, but the individuals are paying. So the the trade union uh are also active in these unemployment funds. So the more the more the trade union can do, the more incentives also for individuals to actually join. Uh except, of course, for the I mean the wage negotiations are are the are crucial. So so uh yes, but but I think if if trade unions are given uh a real important role in society, I think more people uh will join.

Tom Parkin 38:48

Now in in the in the Nordic model, you uh we we we tend to have site-by-site collective bargaining, and the Nordic Nordic model is quite a bit different. I I understand that you have national level bargaining, sectoral bargaining, and local bargaining. Yes. How does that how does that work? You were a president of a national union, so what kind of things would you do at your level uh versus different sectors within your union or individual workplaces?

SPEAKER_00 39:14

Yeah, we we uh negotiate at the national level. So we sometimes we negotiate, we coordinate among the the blue-collar trade unions. Uh but we negotiate separately, but we coordinate our demands. Um and uh some 30 years ago now, we introduced a new uh new system because we had decades where the wage increases were quite high, also, I mean nominally uh quite high in in Krug learning the Swedish currency, but we noticed after after uh when the year was over, nothing was left because in of inflation, meaning that the wage increase was not met by productivity. And that also meant that that the the uh the sectors of the manufacturing industry, as an example, uh that are exposed to to international uh competition uh had problems because we needed to the companies needed to to raise prices and uh and lost competition. So a new system was uh introduced where the the sectors that are exposed to international uh competition decide how much can we afford in wage increase, and the rest of uh the sectors had to follow that. Uh still with the flexibility of doing uh special things for, let's say, low-wage people in in other sectors, yes, you can do that. But uh uh in general to to stick to that, and that has given real wage increase, I would say, ever since 1996, seven until now, almost every year. And I think there are few countries that can see that kind of real wage increase as we actually manage with this uh kind of structure.

Tom Parkin 41:14

So so at the national level, led by the blue-collar trade unions, there's a framework or uh a guideline about wage increase, uh, and others uh follow that uh that policy in their in their local bargaining?

SPEAKER_00 41:28

Yes, yes. And that then so that's the national. Then the locals, the locals, they can still negotiate, so they can negotiate higher if they if they uh I mean some do, uh because they can. The companies do well, uh they can do by wage increase or by uh uh in other forms, of course. So they have their uh freedom of negotiating, but when they start negotiating, they have this national level as a as a ground. So that's the the minimum, and then they can distribute money differently, the wage increases differently, they can increase locally and so on. But it's uh it's a national kind of a guarantee. At least this you you are entitled to.

Tom Parkin 42:17

And at the national level, you're also bargaining things like uh your unemployment insurance scheme, uh contributions and management of the of the fund, that's that sort of thing, or other social benefits?

SPEAKER_00 42:27

Aaron Powell Not the unemployment uh because that is a uh a separate separate body, the the whole that is also uh financed by by government. Um so that's a separate body. But we do, I mean, we do negotiate insurances, uh, for example, working hours, uh uh safety and and uh pension and so so there's a lot of uh of subjects in those uh agreements.

Tom Parkin 42:53

Yeah, in interesting. Now you talked about the the the the the uh era when you had high wage growth but also high inflation. It was affecting your exports. Uh I think this is probably something Canadians uh were a very export-oriented economy as well. Um so it was something we can relate to. Now do you think that the fact that you have an organized labor market gave this potential for a wage stability that uh allowed uh for containing inflation uh and then to s to in in effect create wage gains that were more long-term, more sustainable, more stable, more real. So that there's a you know, the old idea that unemployment, there's a trade off between unemployment and inflation, that in the organized labor market of the Nordics, that that trade off is a lot smaller, perhaps.

SPEAKER_00 43:54

Uh there is a trade off, I I'm convinced, because uh with high percent percentage membership. If with a lower percentage you don't reach that many people. So so I would say it it means something that you because that's the I mean that's crucial in in a trade union that you can meet people, you can have that dialogue, you can receive criticism when when they feel like that, but you can also explain and show uh this is how we're thinking. And uh at the time we we got that mandate, people were tired of these relatively high wage increases, but uh also high inflation. So we can we can make sense of that and having very broad dialogue within our I mean in in in in our example, within our trade union, and meet people out there at their workplaces in the regions and discuss. So I yes I would say it means something.

Tom Parkin 45:04

So almost a national discussion within the labor movement about wages and inflation and exports and the strength of the NAT how that that's a that's an enormous social project.

SPEAKER_00 45:15

Yes it is but uh and then again local trade union representatives uh exposed to competition uh foreign competition they I mean they saw this they saw what happened so they could relate to it okay we see we see this is not good so they could also uh add to that discussion and uh but again I I think it means something that you you have members that you can reach out to and they can reach out to their representatives so that connection is is extremely important.

Tom Parkin 45:46

Now you mentioned the social partners and uh that's not a term that we use in Canada. We don't have that could you just explain what you mean by that term and and who are the social partners what does it what decision do these partners make? And is that social partnership how dependent is that a is that something that only happens when the social democrats are in power or is that sort of a a feature that continues whether the Social Democrats are in or out?

SPEAKER_00 46:12

Yeah it it continues. I can say it's it's tougher for trade unions with with right wing uh governments because they tend to always as an example lower the the um payment from from unemployment funds as an example. So and that of course um that of course affects the the labor market and and and workers. So they're trying to do that we and every time we are in power we we correct that and and and raise those. So it's tougher uh with conservative governments, no doubt about it. But they they have another philosophy that's that's obvious. But it's still I mean i i it works the system between the partners works. So it's the employers and uh and their organizations and the trade union and and our organizations. So as I said we we are given quite a quite a lot of responsibility in the labor market. So so uh uh but also it that includes the the enterprise's development so with the codetermination law as an example the employers are obliged to inform the trade union representatives about the uh constantly about the development of the enterprise the company how how is it uh doing the economy sales you you know and changes within the company when we we want to restructure this enterprise they have to first inform and then negotiate meaning that trade unions workers they come in they participate also in let's say a restructuring of the enterprise and uh from the beginning uh many business leaders were not happy with this uh we're back now in the in the 70s but uh over the years many of them say hey this is very good because we we get some very good ideas uh from workers they know their job and they can see other things perhaps than the CEO does or the CFO so they many of the business leaders today say this is good and the the uh trade the workers also have a right to be in the company board the enterprises access board with representatives uh and I've heard also there business leaders saying hey now I can hear things that I can't hear from from from uh from the people in the office they they don't say this but these guys they do so um it's a kind of a I mean there's still this uh the this basic conflict between labor and capital is there but in doing this we we've found a way of dealing with it the best way we think we can. And we we also remember not not personally but we do know the history that from the industrialization started in late 1800s until 1930-40 were hard battles in in Swedish labor market, strikes, conflicts but then 1938 they sat down at the central level national level said no we can't go on like this we have to find a way of dealing with this basic conflict and uh and that's uh what happened so few days with conflict on the Swedish labor market.

Tom Parkin 49:47

Interesting do the social partners labor and and capital do they do they have a role in um deciding about what private or public sector investments are made in the economy or how they're uh how they're directed, where they're directed, what what sectors, what kind of businesses?

SPEAKER_00 50:06

I would say both both of them are also influencing politics. So they're uh not only I mean uh that I guess happens all over the world but this is uh different I would say when I was prime minister we invited the trade unions and the and the employers organizations big uh for example when we before we had discussions in the European Union that we knew affected the labor market we we we invited them and sat down with them and said hey this is the the issues that we're going to deal with uh these are the problems these are the opportunities let's hear your view and try to use that and uh also as a politician as a political leader of course it's a strength when you know that that the final decision you make the the the things you push for are supported by by uh the partners and the uh the labor market and of course they try to influence also political investments at the company level definitely trade unions also push for investment because they want to keep the enterprise as competitive as possible so um yeah I think it worked well and and the some of the well the Nordic model has developed some of the world's most innovative and productive economies.

Tom Parkin 51:28

I was looking at some OECD reports uh from twenty twenty five that put Sweden's productivity higher than Canada higher than the European average um what advantages do you think I think you've you know you've started this exploration but what are some of the other advantages this this Nordic social democratic model has in skills, in productivity and especially in innovation. And and what and how do you connect that back to workers in a store, in a plant, in a school um you know that that that are doing their job uh but there's always change and to be a participant in change and beneficiary of change.

SPEAKER_00 52:14

Yeah so so first make use of the companies and I and I still uh criticize business leaders and I tell them hey uh although we uh have quite a good of co-determination uh Swedish enterprises I think you make use of let's say 50% of the of the knowledge that people have so you can improve a lot but but relatively more than than many countries uh and when I was acting in the trade union I could see traveling to England or to Germany or other Japan I could see there are more layers between the CEO and the worker individual workers so let's say it's six, seven in Sweden perhaps three and that makes uh the workers more um there are more um more possibilities to influence to to come up with ideas and and tell this is how we can improve our the process uh a machine or uh whatever and and they do and they know that if we don't if we you have to be on your toes otherwise you you you you can't uh cope with the with the competition and it's it's hard and also remembering that Sweden you know the export the Swedish export is about 50% of our GDP 5 zero meaning that a lot of our the wealth that we build is export and it goes without saying that in in that light you you need to be very competitive. But also the other side of it is and this is very important when when things change you restructure a company perhaps meaning that a number of people get unemployed are being laid off in that moment people need to know again I will I will i it's okay I can handle the economy until I get the next job. If not they will resist the change. So countries with low uh unemployment fund or low uh yeah um uh insurances they I would say they will meet more resistance in the change because people are afraid of the change.

Tom Parkin 54:37

This is bad enough anyhow being being laid off but at least you know one thing I I can handle the economy still I can keep our house we can stay in the house and the second is the society helps me finding another job uh with uh an active uh labor market uh policy training whatever you need to to find that next job yeah and there is a fairly uh active skills training um initiative that is uh helping people get reintroduced into the into into workplaces when they're unemployed uh I've read a little bit about this but I'm not sure I'm I mean I won't have the level of knowledge that certainly you can help us with. Uh how does how how do you how does the state use its resources to to get people from unemployment into companies and help the companies find the skills that they need.

SPEAKER_00 55:35

So uh the school system is is of course the base the where you want to give the the you you give the kids and the youth the best possible basic education. And then of course universities all that but also labor market uh training different uh different skills uh be it welding I was a welder uh uh welding or uh driving a a truck or uh whatever you choose to do uh so the society's task is to make sure the uh society can provide that training so a part of the budget of the state budget is allocated to this kind so to make it easier to to cope with these changes on the labor market. Now we we criticize this government because they have reduced it it's it's not smart. We have to make sure again that people can find the path to to a new job. But also the the labor market partners are also involved in this so uh when I worked in the trade union we and they still do we developed something called technology college between the partners because again the the employers and the trade unions uh the the employees they know very well what kind of training people need. So they we developed training together this technology college that is now all over the country um and uh in in different sectors both parties are involved in shaping the training so that they know uh youth know that with this training I'll get the right uh skill and the employers know those who have gone in that kind of training that kind of education they have the right skill so it's it's another example of of giving the social partners a a task a very important task uh of freedom to to shape this uh because we think it's it's better.

Tom Parkin 57:40

Mm-hmm so I I imagine for a lot of Canadian Social Democrats this this all sounds you know you know incredible and wonderful and let's just do that. But there uh there is one lacaution or flag um all the Nordics um they're unitary states they don't have provinces they don't have states uh we are a federation of ten provinces and three territories with different levels of responsibility in different jurisdictions uh the the labor market is generally uh the laws are set out provincially provinces and our federal government make investments our federal government runs our unemployment insurance fund our Canada pension fund etc it's more of a a mix uh but with with your experience working with federations um uh and your viewpoint on them do you think there's a way uh around that uh for Social Democrats working in a federal arrangement I do uh I mean Sweden is a member of the European Union and uh so we have the same kind of um discussion there because the European Union has no mandate let's say on the on the social issues that's not a European Union mandate it's national uh but um a number of years ago uh uh I was one of them initiating uh what we called a social pillar uh so we we started a discussion with the the Commission president at the time Jean-Claude Juncker saying hey European Union must be more than uh for just capital or or uh goods and and and all that it it people must feel this is good for me.

SPEAKER_00 59:26

So uh and we do want to to raise uh the the social security for people so that they feel yeah we can cope with because we want also to make the European Union more efficient, more productive and and with that comes demands for for workers. So uh but given that it's not a European uh uh mandate we said let's go for we can if we can decide what we want to achieve in terms of employment in terms of what kind of jobs there is and what happens if you can't job three three uh topics and and uh recognize okay this is not uh something that we can decide for a whole Europe but we can decide that all of us will walk to a a a a certain path we want to increase employment we want to do that and that and that and you do it your way I do it my way and he or she does it her way. So that's a way of combining you you said goal and right now we have a new topic at the European level that is not a European Union mandate. It's housing but we see all over Europe that that's a a lack of of of a housing and youth are are forced to stay home with the parents but because they can't find a an apartment. And that is not a European mandate but our party the European Socialists we've said that hey this is a subject that we need to deal with all of us so let's let's find a way also here to combine our forces but it's it's a national decision but we do it together so it becomes a European issue anyway I I think it's that's one way. And let me say again that although we you say it it sounds good what we what we do in Sweden, I just want to say it's not perfect. It's far it's far from perfect. We have our share of of problems but but I think the basic model is good.

Tom Parkin 1:01:34

Final question just going back to your life as a as a union leader and thinking about people who are union leaders here in Canada is the same I in many ways.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:46

What are your thoughts on how to be a leader um to build support for unions within the membership what worked for you or didn't um to bring union members along the crucial the crucial thing is is presence. To be close uh if uh I mean at the local level uh I spent a lot of time uh walking around uh uh on the floor so to speak and and talk to people and inform people. Uh you know when the this codetermination legislation was implemented in the 70s uh we we found out after a time there's a risk that trade union representatives they sit with the with the leaders with the CEO or or whoever it is they get a lot of information but if you don't share that uh the members after a while they they say okay they sit and talk we but we don't know what what's happening so so presence is extremely important at the national level we introduced uh when we uh tw uh once a year we we we gathered quite small groups 10, 15 20 people uh workers some with the with the uh there were representatives some were not but they were at the very local level and we sat down for a day discussing uh could be wages but could be uh anything that we wanted to discuss with them and that creates uh inclusion so presence and inclusion I think is extremely important and even in in in tough times you just have to go there you have to be there and uh I I think that also gives respect if people see that you're not afraid to be there or even though they they are really criticizing you very tough. But but you're there you're there and and you take that criticism and you you you deal with it. So I would say again presence and inclusion is is absolutely crucial.

Tom Parkin 1:03:52

Well that's uh some good advice uh Mr. Offin thank you so much for taking time with us and uh help helping us on this project of trying to uh imagine for Canadian Social Democrats what a social democratic building process could could look like and I know that we uh can probably reflect on that a lot more clearly and concretely now with your help. So I hope I've contributed uh to some extent yes thanks very much we're gonna take a quick break and we'll be right back with Nikki and love it or leave it.

Tom: Heaving including real estate investors in Ford and Carney's $2.2B HST deal

Nikki Hill 1:04:34

Before we wrap up we've come to the part of the show we like to call love it or heave it something you love and want to keep or something you'd like to heave and forget forever. What do you have this week, Tom?

Tom Parkin 1:04:45

Well I'm heaving the $2.2 billion dollar HST rebate on new housing purchases by investors in Ontario. This is another partnership deal between Mark Carney and Doug Ford. And knocking off 13% HST for the purchase price of a new house or condo is great for you know an individual who's looking for a place and wants to live in it. But my concern here is that this HST rebate isn't limited to owner occupiers. It's also getting extended to investor speculators and there are some housing experts who are raising the concern that is this is going to reignite the increase in housing prices and rents. So for the past 10 years 57% of new condos and 23% of new house purchases in Ontario were for owner investment uh not for owner occupancy according to research by Jeremy Withers, a researcher with the new housing alternatives at the University of Toronto. So right off a big chunk of that $2.2 billion is going to flow to investors not not the people that Mark Carney and Doug Ford want you to picture in your head when they think about um you know the first time home buyer or the home buyer who's gonna live in the house. That's who they keep throwing the draw. But no A lot of this money is going to go to investors. And as Jeremy Withers points out, this effect is really problematic because uh if they juice the real estate returns by cutting this uh by giving this HST rebate, the inflow of capital uh American will very likely start pushing up house prices. So for example, just to think about the simple math and how this works, 13% HST on a million-dollar house or condo um is $130,000. So if in a few years the investor sells it for $1.2 million, the return after the tax is $70,000 or 7%. Okay. But without the the HST, it's $200,000 or 20%. So it really changes the finance math and the investment return. So the plan from Ford and Kearney is about attracting investors as a way to restart construction, um, but at the cost of higher prices. And that is what I am heaving. And I think from what I'm what I'm reading, and people like Jeremy Weathers and others who are expert in the field, that there are better ways to uh address the construction problem that don't fuel housing inflation. Uh and that's something I want to I want to dig into and uh give some love to in the next few months.

unknown 1:07:23

Yeah.

Tom Parkin 1:07:24

What about you, Nikki? What are you seeing?

Nikki: Loving FIFA promoting research on women in sport

Tom Parkin 1:07:26

Something loving, something hate leaving.

Nikki Hill 1:07:28

Yeah, listeners who don't know me well will be surprised I'm dipping back into sports ball again. Um, but it is FIFA Madness in Vancouver and other Canadian cities and probably all over my feet, so from other across the world. So let's do it. Um, not a big fan of the big sporting events are not my thing, uh, and some of the pressures they put on communities in particular, but I am a fan of sport organizations that invest in women's sports. So I'm gonna give FIFA some credit here before I probably curse them for the next uh month or so when I can't get downtown first. But um, they launched a female health and performance project recently. So I think something people just don't understand is that there is always been this real big, really big gap in health research in general, the gender gaps. And so most research in health and including in shaping recovery and training has been built on male data, even for women, built on male data. And there was a timely meme going around my group chats where lately what someone had up on Instagram that was telling saying to people, did you know that Home Alone 2 is now older than the first policy requiring women to be included in clinical trials? So just for those things to track how old Home Alone 2 is, 1993 was the first time that women were required, women's data was required in clinical trials. So this is why it's still really important that organizations organizations like FIVA are putting some money into what was still really innovative work, sadly, here in 2026. They did a review that showed on 5,000 sports science studies published between 2014 and 2020, only 34% of participants were female, and only 6% focused exclusively on women. So this is you know great to see from FIFA. Their chief women's football officer said we need to normalize these conversations around female health and embrace this, use it to our advantage instead of ignoring it and be fearful of discussing it. It's not a weakness, it's a strength. So, you know, also a fan favorite for me trying to address here in this work uh issues around support for menopause, menstruation. So, you know, good on FIFA. There we go. Probably the only nice thing I'll say about FIFA for the next little bit, unless I pop over to a good concert in Vancouver. Um there's so much chaos going on in the city. Uh, and if you don't cave to pressure from Trump around trans athletes, there'll be more good things to say, if that matters to FIFA, how I'm feeling about them.

Tom Parkin 1:09:57

Yes. Well, FIFA madness has descended on Toronto as well. And uh that's creases, but you know, I hope the people who work in the restaurants and bars are getting extra shifts and making money. Uh and that's just you know, I mean, the decision has been made long ago to have this, so I hope now at this point that it just works out and everybody has a good time and uh and enjoy the sport, you know. Even you, Nikki.

Nikki Hill 1:10:19

I'll happily stay in the suburbs and enjoy it.

Tom Parkin 1:10:22

All right. Okay, well, you heard from Nikki and me. You can em email us at left east to west at gmail.com if you want to tell us about something that you're loving or heaving. Uh, and also remember to tap the follow button on your podcast player because you want to get reminders for those upcoming interviews with Ontario NDP leader Mart Styles, economist Jim Stanford, and Carlo Beck, the leader of the Saskatchewan NDP, all coming up in the next few weeks, and then we'll tell you about who we are booking into July and and further on. So thanks for joining. Have a great week, Nikki.

Nikki Hill 1:10:55

Bye, Tom.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:56

Okay, take care. Thanks for joining Left East to West with hosts Nikki Hill and Tom Parker. We'd love to hear your comments, ratings, follows, and shares. It helps people find us. To become a Left East to West community member and to help us reach even more Canadians. Subscribe using the link in the show notes. You can watch us on YouTube or lesson wherever you get your favorite podcasts. Just search for Left East to West and subscribe. I'm Doc Hamilton signing off for Left East to West. See you next week.