Marit Stiles: raising expectations to break the cycle of cynicism

Marit Stiles, leader of the Ontario NDP, sits down with Nikki and Tom to discuss the scandal-plagued Doug Ford government and her drive to raise people's expectation and break out of the cycle of cynical politics and bad outcomes Ontario has settled into.

Marit tells us about the work she’s been doing as official opposition to Premier Doug Ford, digging up scandal after scandal. But she also talks about the need to propose solutions and raise people’s expectations about what government can get done for them.

Recently, her NDP put out proposals for a forestry sector strategy, summer jobs for young workers, housing and healthcare staffing. In our interview Marit also talks about the need to reform the food distribution sector, which consistently delivers prices that rise faster than general inflation.

Marit also reflects on Ontario regionalism and the very different levels of public services and infrastructure in different parts of Ontario — or even different neighbourhoods of the same city. Doug Ford’s destructive focus on Toronto may be amusing to some in have-not regions, but the politics of resentment isn’t helping their access to healthcare, schools, job opportunities or even safe highways. Is "One Ontario" waiting to be built?

Nikki takes a look at a by-election win in PEI by the provincial Greens that could be signalling a coming political realignment in that province. Or it might just a by-election blip, though the scan polling evidence available suggests it is more than that.  

Tom digs into the signals sent by Prime Minister Carney appointing his principal secretary, Tom Pitfield, to the Senate and replacing him with Scott Gilmore. While Pitfield comes from a legacy Liberal family, Gilmore was an active Conservative until a few years ago. 

Transcript

Welcome!

Nikki Hill 0:24

Welcome to Left East to West with me, Nikki Hill.

Tom Parkin 0:27

And me, Tom Parkin, here in Ontario. Another good week for Mart Stiles, and a very bad week again for Doug Ford. For most of the past two weeks, Ford's been struggling under the PC expenses scandal, a barrage of news reports about Ford PCs lavishly spending public money on themselves. And a lot of those, almost all of that news is being generated out of Mart Styles' NDP. And so in a couple minutes, we're going to talk to Mark about that and a lot more.

Nikki Hill 0:56

Yeah, it's really been an interesting week or a few weeks, I guess. And Mars probably feeling pretty good about an Ecos poll we saw as well mid-last week, putting the Ontario NDP support up about 10 points from the last election. So that's putting them into second right now with both the PCs and the Ontario Liberal Party down. Best poll we've seen out of Ontario from our scan. So let's stay tuned to see if that's an outlier or a trend.

Tom Parkin 1:22

Yeah, lots to talk about with Mart, about her vision for Ontario. But first, let's go this week below the fold, taking a look at a couple of important stories that didn't make national headlines.

NIkki on a significant PEI by-election

Tom Parkin 1:43

Nikki, what are you following that's under the fold?

Nikki Hill 1:46

Well, we haven't given PEI a lot of airtime yet on the show, even though we're covering East to West. So let's talk about an interesting dynamic. I'm not going to pretend I'm an expert in PEI politics sitting here in BC, but this one did catch my eye and that of other politicos recently. But also PEI has had a lot of national attention this week with the premier's meetings July 21st to 23rd and the uh falling out of that and coming with Trump descending upon us again and premieres all being together for the Council of the Federation, then first ministers with the prime minister. And we also had, even sitting out here in BC, a glimpse of the beauty of the province at the same time with the volume of decision makers really descending upon the province. So there's a lot above the fold, though, on the prime minister's meetings with the premiers and the premier's meetings with key stakeholders. So we're going to talk about PI provincially instead. So on July 13th, so a few weeks ago now, there was a by-election that caused some political chatter, and it also caused the resignation of the PEI liberal leader, Robert Mitchell, after he lost his second by-election. But some speculation on the favorable wind in the sales of PEI's Green Party is mostly what we wanted to touch on today. So I think PEI politics has had a traditional political path familiar to other provinces, two parties, in their case, the liberals and progressive conservatives taking turns governing. Sounds really familiar sitting here in BC, while everyone else is trying to break through, including the Greens, who have had a lot more success on that front in recent years in the province. So with that by-election result, it puts the Greens tied to the opposition liberals at four seats apiece. So we're not talking about tons of seats here in PEI, but still bringing in the Greens into that opposition frame. And the governing Tories actually only hold 18 seats, and there's one independent for context for folks. And if you were wondering, there are no NDP MLAs in the PEI Legislative Assembly, and the NDP is actually only ever elected one MLA in the party's history. So that's former leader Dr. Herb Dickinson in 1996. But recent polling, and I think, you know, this is not uncommon with a lot of premiers right now, but recent polling showing some really high voter dissatisfaction with Premier Rob Lance and the governing progressive conservatives. Only 16% of islanders are satisfied. I mean, as we've noted, we are really seeing some premieres take some big hits across the country. PEI actually uh isn't in the samples that we've seen uh on Angus Reed and others as they look at all the premiers due to its size, but it's not a trend that it's not unusual right now. But we're gonna talk a little bit about the Greens and not the government. So I think analysts have looked at the PEI Greens mostly as a uniquely strong provincial green movement. Certainly Greens are active federally and active in different provinces. BC has a uh a pretty strong Green Party movement as well over the years, but has only gone as high as a couple of MLAs in the past. But in PEI, they did form the official opposition after the 2019 election, which was a first for a Green Party in Canada. But the assumption really has been that that was an exceptional moment rather than PEI's political scheme doing a political realignment. However, this new by-election result is giving some suggestion that that may be accelerating, as our polls will chat about. The by-election saw Green candidate Tate Willows capture the Cornwall Meadowbank seat, so defeating not only the governing progressive conservatives, but also the liberal leader. And Willows won with almost 40% of the vote, which is uh in a place where it was considered pretty fertile ground for the liberals and the PCs. We only really can see a lot of polling from one pollster from Becky's, which is narrative research, but they were showing in June before the by-elections a surge for the Greens that actually suggests they may be in line to form government in the next general election, which is targeted for next October, 2027. And the uh the PEI Green Party leader Matt McFarlane showing up and the premier favorabilities there as a preferred candidate for premier in that poll. So all of that could be another first for the Green Party in Canada if that persists through into their election, which is over a year away. So October 2027, as I noted. But I think what was really interesting, and we don't actually see with it from a lot of Green Party leaders in other provinces, is they are polling so strongly and seeing, you know, obviously really helpful to get those positive headwinds. But McFarland as leader said their intention is to bring the Greens into power in the next election, and their goal is to form government. So not something we see uh traditionally in a lot of Green Party strength across other provinces, but I think that's really what's making people pay attention to it to see if that's going to be the case when they come through to an election. So turn note was also noteworthy here. 61% of voters cast a ballot, which is really strong for a summer by-election. Um, and this is actually also seen as something where they've been having a declining voter turnout in PI. So kind of interesting here. Is it a loyal base? Is it candidate popularity, or is it actually seeing some change here in politics in PEI? It can also just be a by-election blip, as we know. Uh, but you know, July by-elections aren't always that popular. So actually, we can test out when we get to federal by-elections and see what the turnout was as well. But I think really our takeaway here is is PEI offering us a preview of something that's rare in Canadian politics, which is where that traditional two-party dynamic gives way to a real three-party contest, and also where the Greens aren't just competing for relevance, but they're actually competing for power in the next election. So I think after this by-election, something that people will be paying a little bit more serious attention to across the country with interest.

Tom Parkin 7:36

Yeah, that's interesting. And you don't often get political realignments. That that's kind of once-in-a-generation kind of stuff. Uh, I guess I guess we just wait to see if that's what this is or if it's a if it's a blip.

Nikki Hill 7:48

Yeah. Now we can pay attention to what's going on PI before their next election.

Tom Parkin 7:52

Right on.

Nikki Hill 7:53

What's

Tom looks a signals from senior PM staff changes

Nikki Hill 7:54

under the fold for you, Tom?

Tom Parkin 7:56

Uh well, a couple weeks ago, Mark Carney appointed his principal secretary, Tom Pitfield, to the Senate and appointed Scott Gilmore as his new principal secretary. And I thought that was pr pretty interesting. It was pretty low profile, but I think it sends some significant signals about what Mark Carney is about and what his political project is. Tom Pitfield was born into the Liberal Party. His dad, Michael Pitfield, uh was cabinet secretary for Pierre Trudeau starting in 1975, 1982, he was appointed a senator and he he was a senator for for 28 years. In 2024, Tom Pitfield, the son, not quite 30, and while his dad was a liberal senator, gets hired as the senior policy advisor to the liberal government Senate leader at that time, Jack Austin. This is under Paul Martin's tenure. Uh so Pitfield the Younger in 20 uh 2006, I should say, helped found Canada 2020, which is kind of a a mix of think tank and a platform for up-and-coming liberals. It's kind of like a Liberal Party TED Talk kind of idea. Um after the federal 20 oh, for the Liberals, the 2011 disaster, he created Data Sciences Inc., which was kind of his business name for uh the job of providing data analytics to the Liberal Party about Liberal List, which is their in-house uh voter database. So he was the guy who was really has his hands on the political machinery.

Nikki Hill 9:30

Uh-huh.

Tom Parkin 9:31

And he was on Justin Trudeau's leadership campaign and was the liberal campaign chief digital strategist in 2025. But after sorry, after 2015, uh when when Trudeau came in at fr at first. But after 2015, he didn't go to work at the PMO. He stayed with Canada 2020, stayed with Data Sciences, running the Liberal Party machinery. Uh, and ten years later, fast forward to Mark Carney, he's he's the uh uh uh campaign key campaign guy for Mark Carney, and then when Carney becomes prime minister, he becomes or yes, when he becomes prime minister, he becomes his principal secretary. Okay. So, you know, uh uh a genetic liberal, if we can say it that way, born as a liberal to a very obviously high-powered liberal family, but his time as principal sec secretary is incredibly short. I mean, this has been just a little bit over a year. Uh Katie Telford was principal secretary for six years. Gerald Butts was five years, um, with uh Harper, Ray Novak was seven years, so one year.

Nikki Hill 10:41

Hmm.

Tom Parkin 10:42

Uh so uh you know, I I can't offer any insight on what that is, but you know, uh maybe there's something there about shifting gears a little bit. Uh because replacing Pitfield is a guy named Scott Gilmore, who is certainly not a blue blood, a blue blood liberal. He did not come from a political family. Uh before Carney, he never worked in the PMO, never worked in a minister's office, never worked in the civil service, he never worked on a Liberal Party campaign. Because until fairly recently, Gilmore was active in the Conservative Party. Gilmore parted ways with the Conservatives in 2017 during the leadership race that Andrew Schear won. He was pretty critical of Andrew Schear's style of politics. And while that was going on, he set up a series of dinner events in Halifax, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver, bringing people who dine together to discuss the possibility of a new conservative party. Andrew Coyne and Matt Gurney were dinner speakers at the event here in Toronto. The dinner club approach didn't really get too much media attention. This is kind of an interesting side story, except for McClain's, uh, then owned by Rogers, and he was a columnist for them. Um but then during these events, some of the promotional material for them uh said that the these dinners were sponsored by McClain's.

Nikki Hill 12:07

Um interesting.

Tom Parkin 12:08

Yeah. And then when a reporter saw that and asked Rogers, um, is your company uh McLean's sponsoring these dinners about setting up a new Conservative Party? They said, uh, no, we are definitely not. Uh so they disavowed it very, very quickly. But it is kind of a funny thing for him to have just made up out of his head. Um, so that kind of leaves I don't know, it's a head scratcher to me. Gilmore served on Kearney's transition team after he was named his advisor, and after that, he was sorry, he was named his advisor on foreign defense and security policy. Now he's principal secretary. So I think in a way, what we're seeing here with Kearney is that Gilmore gets the new Conservative Party he wanted, or at least the chance to build it, replacing the party built on this base of Canada 2020 and data sciences and you know hereditary liberals. So it's kind of a a play on this floor-crossing kind of idea that we've seen from Kearney. Okay, one big tense. Now, one last thing about former Principal Secretary, now Senator Tom Pitfield. Three other Senate appointments were made on the same day as him. Two came through the nonpartisan appointment vetting process that Trudeau created. But Pitfield and Richard Martel, a conservative MP, uh they were appointed in a process that bypassed that vetting process and that panel. And they were appointed in the old style on the PM's prerogative alone. It's a change. Martell's qualification for the Senate uh seems to be that he won his riding of Chukudomi uh uh La Fiord with just fifteen hundred more votes than the Liberal. So a by-election looks like a good shot for uh a pickup by Mr. Kearney's Liberals, or whatever they are. Uh there's the other partisan appointment also s appears to be something in this cross floor-crossing strategies. Uh Pitfield's Senate appointment led to some media speculation that Kearney was going to revive a liberal caucus in the Senate. But in an interview ten days or so ago, Senator Pierre Moreau, Kearney's representative in the Senate, said, no, that that is not going to be happen happening. But he did say two interesting things about what will be happening. First, he said in the future, Kearney will make both nonpartisan panel vetted appointments and also continue to make direct partisan appointments on his prerogative alone, the old style. So the second thing he said that was interesting is that he believes Kearney will be appointing more conservatives, like he just has. I don't honestly believe that. I think the much more likely reason is that this is a great signal to conservatives who would like a nice title, a nice office and staff, and $185,000 a year plus plus to do a bunch of kind of busy work. Um it's so it's kind of more of the the floor-crossing strategy. He's he's got six Senate vacancies still, even after appointing these four. So that's six sweet carrots to dangle in front of lots of conservative donkeys to, you know, follow the analogy. As Carney's new principal secretary, Scott Gilmore, tries to build his new Conservative Party, the one that he's wanted. So I think that might be a big clue, all these pieces together, about, you know, what is the political project of Mark Carney? Um You were just Nikki talking about um permanent realignment versus temporary blip. Yeah. I think he's going for the I think if this theory is correct, he's going for the permanent realignment by savaging uh and hollowing out the Conservative Party.

Nikki Hill 16:16

Yeah, and he had some other shifts in his office recently too. Um uh with Braden Cayley, who's gonna run in the seat that Jonathan Wilkinson's vacating, Braden also, former Canada 2020 head. Uh and so you know, we are seeing some of those long-term staffers sort of shifting around in for new opportunities. So interesting to see. And I and I think on the policy side, we're seeing a mix of that sort of traditional or maybe more Trudeau-era process around things like funding, you know, and a little bit more of the political um granting coming back into the scene. So we'll keep watching it.

Tom Parkin 16:50

More more carrots to dangle. Interesting side note. Uh Jonathan Wilkinson was a new Democrat uh at one time. Yeah. So uh, you know, not in West Vancouver.

Nikki Hill 17:01

No, he was in Saskatchewan.

Tom Parkin 17:02

He was a staffer for the Romano government way back when but just interesting that, you know, so kinda kind of a left liberal gets moved out, and we're seeing this um this move to more conservative staffing.

Nikki Hill 17:14

Yeah. I'm not sure if Braden Cayley talks about it anymore. He might get mad at me for saying it because we're old friends, but uh he's also a former New Democrat. So Oh, is he?

Tom Parkin 17:23

Interesting, yeah.

Nikki Hill 17:24

Yeah, that's how I first met him.

Tom Parkin 17:26

From British Columbia?

Nikki Hill 17:28

Yeah, yeah. I'm sure he's fine with it. He has lots of New Democrat friends. Yeah.

Tom Parkin 17:34

He could be a senator one day too, maybe, but he has to become a conservative first.

Nikki Hill 17:38

I don't think that'll happen. We'll see.

Tom Parkin 17:40

Okay.

Nikki Hill 17:41

Okay, well, let's take a quick break and we're gonna be back with Mart Styles. Okay.

Marit Stiles: raising expectations to break the cycle of cynicism

Tom Parkin 17:57

Mart Stiles, welcome to Left East to West. Thank you for joining us.

Marit Stiles 18:01

It's great to be here. Finally got on. It's I'm so excited.

Tom Parkin 18:05

Great. You came into elected politics from the labor movement. Uh you were elected to the Toronto District School Board in 2014, became an MPP in 2018, leader of the Ontario NDP in 2023. Let's start with uh some things that have been happening for you recently. Um you doing some some good work holding Doug Ford to account. A couple of weeks ago in early June, Doug closed the Ontario legislature down early and announced he would come back late, no doubt, hoping he'd have lots of quiet summery days in Muskoka. But uh obviously you had a different plan for him. Uh tell us a little bit about the last couple of weeks and how did you learn so much about the Ford MP uh Ford MPP's uh abusing the rules and and make this into such a big kind of rolling thunder type of scandal, this PC expense scandal.

Marit Stiles 18:57

Well, yeah, it's been quite a few weeks for sure. Uh and I and I think you're right. I think Doug Ford thought, you know, shut the legislature down early, uh break for 21 weeks, by the way. We're not coming back until the very end of October uh into the legislature. So he thought he was gonna, you know, get out of here because he was getting too much heat in the legislature from us, and particularly in the official opposition, I would say, in our team. And he thought, I'll just take a nice quiet summer and I get to control the message and and it'll be so much better. But the reality is that uh I think that, you know, first of all, hard work done not just uh by us and my team, which for sure, we did do uh a fair amount of work on this uh to bring some light uh around, shine some light on these expense issues that we had we had suspected there were things going on, uh certainly lots of rumors, but actually getting our hands on that was a bit of a different story. But also, I I will say journalists here, uh global news in particular, doing a lot of really good work. And, you know, it's not easy right now because the other thing that Doug Ford did in the spring was he changed uh the laws. Uh when it became clear that courts, for example, were ordering him to re provide his cell phone records, his mobile phone, which is the only phone, all of his phone records, uh, he he refused. And um, and he he actually changed the laws of the province of Ontario uh to reduce that accountability. So it's been a lot more difficult for us and for frankly the media as well to access things through the freedom of information laws. So um, but we didn't really have to make it anything because I will say I think that the reality in Ontario right now is that with people struggling so much to just afford the basic things like groceries, uh, it just the the idea that politicians, uh government officials, in this case, many of the ministers, uh, were expensing very expensive hotels, for example, on the taxpayer dime, uh, that just seems wrong. And it seems like a choice that they're making. Uh, and really they're poking poking Ontarians in the eye, right? So we didn't have to make it really an issue. I think Ontarians, what I've seen is that Ontarians have been just furious about it. And um, and I think the other reason for that is that it comes on the coattails of Mr. Ford, the premier, uh trying to buy himself a luxury private jet. And that $30 million jet, uh, people out there, and the fact that he then went on a pity tour to say, oh, poor me, I can't have my luxury jet. It it really, for a lot of Ontarians, I think it really showed them a side of Doug Ford that maybe they hadn't seen before. And so here we are uh again with a government that, you know, let's not forget a premier and a government that came into power in 2018 and said their whole line was, you know, the party on the taxpayer dime is over. But the reality is it just moved now over to luxury suites in downtown Toronto.

Nikki Hill 21:54

Yeah, I mean, even here in BC, we hear obviously hear a lot about Doug Ford scandals. And the first big one being the green. Inbout scandal, which you also unearthed, Fed to the media pushed forward by demanding investigations from Auditor General to Integrity Commissioner, resulted in the whole plan being reversed. Can you just go through how your team played a key role here? How did it get all pieced together?

Marit Stiles 22:16

Well, I mean, first of all, I will say like it it came together because we we knew there was something smelled wrong about some of the legislation that the government was bringing forward. So Doug Ford had started out back in the 2018 election saying, I will not touch the greenbelt. And then a video had emerged showing him actually saying, Oh, to a bunch of developers, oh yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna cut up the, we're gonna divide up the the the spoils here. Uh the green belt will be divided up for all of you. And uh so we kind of got caught on that a while ago. And then we started to um to through freedom of information requests find evidence that the government uh that actually ministers and people in the premier's office had been meeting with developers. Uh we knew, as you know, that there were uh ministers uh who had had dinners, and um, of course, the premier also at the wedding of his daughter, uh, that guest list was publicly available online. And so we we'd seen all of these things. And so we started to put together uh the picture of what had taken place here. And we know as well now, of course, and we learned through some of the freedom of information requests that there were actually envelopes passed over with um, you know, which which piece parcels of land, uh, which developers wanted. And these are people with close ties to the premier. So, and then, you know, honestly, I have to say that a lot of really good work went on, again, in the media, but also uh when we asked for those investigations, uh we went to the auditor general, we went to the integrity commissioner, and they conducted very comprehensive investigations. Um, J. David Wake, uh, Justice, former Justice David Wake, who recently just passed away, sadly, actually, uh, he did an incredible job and uh brought to light a lot of the background. Uh so we started to find out things about ministers going to Las Vegas with developers. I mean, you can't make this stuff up. I mean, it's really wild. And we were able to, uh I was able to, in my new role as leader of the opposition, actually grill the premier on a lot of this. But again, you know, why does it, why does it matter? And a lot of, I think the thing is that a lot of Ontarians have become, a lot of Canadians have become very cynical about politics. Well, isn't everybody corrupt? You know, doesn't everybody, you know, uh dip their hands into the taxpayer cookie jar? And it's simply not true. And these guys have really pushed it. And so that you see this pattern, this this pattern of entitlement. Uh, and it really, the problem for Premier Ford is it really does away with his reputation as being the guy, again, who is going to end the gravy train. And so um, we were able to do a lot of really good work along with the media who were digging in very deep into some of this. And don't forget, like, there is still an RCMP criminal investigation underway currently. They've confirmed it's still underway. So I think there's more that's going to emerge from that.

Tom Parkin 25:09

Okay, let's let's pivot from some of the intense work you've done as an opposition force, as an opposition leader. Let's just talk a little bit about the plan to become a premier. Uh being the official opposition NDP has been the official opposition since 2018. That's through three elections. Um despite that, perhaps for historical reasons or maybe because there isn't a sharp distinction between federal and provincial politics in Ontario, uh, in many minds the way to vote out bad conservatives is to vote in bad liberals. Uh and the cycle the the cycle of cynical politics just kind of continues on. Uh but that default thinking has been to such huge advantage for Doug. Um how do you change that mindset so you can break that cycle?

Nikki Hill 25:55

Hmm.

Marit Stiles 25:56

Well, it certainly, and I mean, I of course when in 2018, you know, I will say I think Andrew Horvath was very close to actually uh forming government again. And um unfortunately that we came close, but we did become official opposition. And the liberals in Ontario have been pretty much wiped out until recently they didn't have party status again. And so they're still going through a lot of processes. I mean, you know, they're they're looking for new leaders, uh, they're going to they're going through their third leadership race now and um since since they were government. So there's a lot of uncertainty right now about who they are, you know, what do they represent. And and you know, the thing for me is the way I look at it, Tom, is we we need to earn, I need to earn the trust of liberals, you know, of people who may have voted liberal all their lives or maybe more so in the last few elections. I need to earn the trust of conservatives, people who have voted conservative. Uh I need to earn the trust of Greens. Uh I need to earn the trust of everyone. Uh, we need a big umbrella if we're gonna form government. And I think that you're right. In Ontario, there's been a tradition of going back and forth uh between liberals and conservatives, with one brief exception. And um and I really think that things are changing. I see it on the ground, uh, I see it in the way that people are shifting the way they're thinking. Uh, for one thing, they are, as as you mentioned, um, they're tired of Doug Ford's corruption. Uh, they're tired of uh these endless scandals. Uh, they saw that under previous liberal governments as well. Um, but and they're really, really concerned about affordability. They're really, really concerned, and they share this concern about life being so expensive. And I do think that we are the only party that is actually talking about those issues right now. There's no question. And and I'll tell you, on the doorsteps, uh myself, our MPPs who are out there all the time, you know, talking to constituents, listening to people, the number one issue without exception is everything costs so much. Groceries cost so much. And no one else is really talking about those issues right now. And I think that for us, the the key here is to not only, of course, always, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna shine a light in the dark corners of the conservative government and we are going to bring some transparency and accountability back, but also like we have to deliver real solutions. And I guess that's the other thing I would say is, you know, my motto is like we we can't only oppose, we have to propose. We have to have solutions. And so that's why I think we've been very focused, and you'll see it in the work we've done, on delivering um proposals that bring back hope. Government is not helpless. Government can find ways to address the cost of groceries. Government can actually address what we're seeing in terms of the slide in our healthcare system or a public education system. We are not helpless. And I think that that's really critical that we bring that hope back to people, that people understand that it doesn't have to be governments that are focused on, you know, the whims of a premier who is living a luxury life right now. Uh, they need a government that is actually focused on regular people, on working people. And I don't think that there's um anybody else right now uh in Ontario politics that's that's offering um that hope and those solutions.

Nikki Hill 29:19

Yeah, let's take it into that a little bit too on the voting side. And certainly, you know, not a dynamic that's that's limited to Ontario. And I think in BC we've seen a lot of that lean into particularly federal liberal voters being really important in the last provincial election. Probably, you know, when we get to an election next time, that same scenario will come in because we still, you know, function between two parties right now. But you know, in BC, we think of ourselves very much as a region with our own political dynamics. Of course, you know, other provinces do as well. We're all special. But it it seems like Ontario voters don't really think of them as selves as much as a region or distinguish between the federal provincial liberals as much as in other provinces. I mean, because there is still that brand awareness, which does create some of that, you know, tricky terrain for you to navigate because you're trying to remind people about the behavior from the Ontario liberals and their their history at the same time. We're in this space, particularly you know, this week where we're all Team Canada, want Prime Minister Kearney to succeed against Trump, all the premiers coming together in that effort as we you'll face new tariff threats. So, as premier, you're going to need to work with the liberals and and Kearney's government, but you also need to be able to figure out how to complementalize some of those feelings about Ontario liberals and and how the role that they play. So, how does that, you know, really play out for you? How do you cross that path or or can you change the terrain in Ontario?

Marit Stiles 30:46

Well, you know, I think that I I don't think you're I think you're right about some of that. I think that Ontario, I mean, I'm from I grew up in, I was born and raised in Newfoundland, a place that thinks of itself absolutely is, you know, very Newfoundland and Labrador, very unique place. And no question, you know, I grew up thinking of myself first as a Newfoundlander and then as a Canadian. And I think that a lot of Ontarians don't see it that way. But I will add just one other piece to that, which is in Ontario though, there are, you know, people, people uh will will identify themselves as a northerner, you know. Or I'm from I'm from uh the Southwest. I'm uh I'm a I'm a person who lives in the GTA. Like it's the I think it's there are regional issues with in Ontario, they're very distinct. And of course, everybody who's outside of Toronto generally is not a fan of Toronto. I live in Toronto, I love it. But uh I also understand that, you know, absolutely, because it is true that you know, Northern Ontario has been left behind. Many regions have been forgotten. You know, I even hear it in eastern Ontario. People say, you know, nobody ever thinks about Ottawa. Ottawa just had like historic floods. And our MPPs there could not get the Minister of You know, emergency preparedness or management on the phone at all for days. It was weeks before the provincial government showed up. You know, they they are actually quite forgotten uh by this government in particular. And I will say this is the interesting thing about Doug Ford and his government is they are very Toronto focused, actually. And he is a Toronto obsessed. So that's a very interesting thing. But I I do agree with you, and I think there is that sense as of, well, you know, people will vote, as you know, like federally, they'll vote liberal, and then they might vote a different way provincially. And we see that across a lot of uh Canada, right? And I guess what I would just say, and how I'm thinking about things, especially lately, and you know, with an aim to defeating this this government and then you know, replacing him as premier, is um that people don't think necessarily in those partisan turn terms. And I think that to some extent, it isn't about party lines, anyways, it's about people. It's about uh it's about uh people needing, as I mentioned earlier, affordable groceries, not seeing the jobs and the opportunities that they once saw in the province of Ontario. I mean, I came here, like a lot of people came to Ontario and to other parts of the country from Newfoundland because at the time there were not opportunities. There were very few jobs. And it gave me a lot of opportunity, and I understand that. Um, but I and I think that most people, and I will add this like I do not think actually as a country and as people in Canada and in Ontario, we're as polarized as we think we are. I think most people want very much the same things. They want a good life for them and their families. They just want their kids to have an opportunity. Uh, frankly, speaking as a parent who has two now grown daughters, you want your kid to be able to move out of your house and hopefully be able to afford their own place. Like the basic things. And and you know, we that's kind of what we want. We want to know that when we're sick or somebody in our family is sick, that there's a healthcare system there that's going to serve them, it's going to care for them. These are really basic things. And I actually think that's what most people want. And I think that what has happened is that uh, you know, certainly we've seen it happen before that liberals will say, look, there's only one option. You you only have one option.

Nikki Hill 34:06

Yeah.

Marit Stiles 34:06

And and to be honest, I think in both cases, the bar has been so lowered. People's expectations of government and politicians are so low. And that was done intentionally. Doug Ford, in particular, his his type of government have reduced expectations of government to such a low that people don't even think their vote matters anymore. So our again, I kind of go back to that. That is our dilemma. It's it's getting people to understand and to believe, like we do as new democrats, that actually government has a role to play in those very basic things, in addressing those very basic things. And that includes, as well, I will say, and and as we're facing these latest threat of tariffs from Donald Trump, um, you know, there it there does there is this a time for unity. There's a time for unity, but it doesn't mean that we can't actually continue to demand more and better from our governments and our leaders. There is nothing wrong. This is a democracy. We need to hold those people, all of them, including myself, to account.

Tom Parkin 35:03

That's an interesting thought about the idea of, you know, Ontario unity or there being one Ontario. Because you're right. I think you're right. It's very people here uh feel regionalized. Um and they don't a lot of parts of the province they don't get the same level of service as Toronto, but even people in Toronto don't get the same as uh other neighborhoods.

Marit Stiles 35:24

So Scarborough. Scarborough, like for sure Scarborough. Some watching well no Scarborough. Scarborough is like always left behind. Um we're we're facing a by-election now in Scarborough Southwest. And you know, I hear this all the time on the doorstep, like we've and they have been. They have been left behind. And you see it in like rural communities where you know you can see like now, right now, in a lot of particularly in southern Ontario, uh, you know, those rural communities have voted conservative for a long time. Uh rural Ontario has been left behind. Rural Ontario is struggling, and you know, and they're not getting anything for these governments that they keep electing.

Tom Parkin 36:03

Mm-hmm. Well, so the next election, 2018, 20, I'm sorry, 2028 or 2029, I guess.

Marit Stiles 36:10

Fingers crossed.

Tom Parkin 36:12

Yeah. Um but you're already out there. You're talking about raising expectations, you're already out there with some policy papers on jobs and affordability issues that start to show what you would do as premier, what you would do different. Can you just tell us a little bit about some of those and will will there be more? As is this kind of a conscious strategy?

Marit Stiles 36:32

Yeah, I mean, first of all, I think it's really important to note that despite all of his bluster, uh, Doug Ford and his conservative government have been an absolute jobs disaster in Ontario. And the the numbers are very clear. And I know, Tom, you've drawn a lot of attention to these numbers as well by crunching a lot of that and drawing a lot of attention to that. It's very important Ontarians understand that. And it's a and you know, they are sp they spend millions of taxpayer dollars on ads claiming that everything is just fabulous. We're just doing great. But people know it's not. And uh I would say one of the areas where that's uh probably the most clear is for youth, where Ontario has, I believe, still the lowest youth employment numbers in the country. Just absolutely outrageously bad. And and we hear it every day in communities in every corner of this province where uh young people particularly, but everybody is really struggling, as you've also noted in the past, you know, that the wages when you even if you have a job, getting a good job that actually pays the bills with everything else rising in cost is becoming it's it's extremely difficult out there. So we've put forward a lot of proposals. Um, and you know, even some of them are actually very focused and very immediate. Like, for example, we pushed really hard this spring for a uh a youth employment program in Ontario, something along the lines of uh the can the federal program, Canada Summer Jobs, because we we really believe that you know there is a role for government really directly in making sure that young people get that first job, have that opportunity, and that there is a need out there for that, um, also among organizations, employers. So we've come forward with many of these proposals, and you're gonna see more of that. We've um been looking as well at very sector-specific plans. So, for example, we've released a forestry industry strategy where we've been working with the forestry sector. Uh, I gotta tell you, it's a story that is not often being told in Ontario, but our forestry industry has been on the decline for a while, but it is really folding and it's scary right now. And so, uh, and the board government does seem to have just kind of ignored it. They're just seem to be letting it die. And so we've come up with some really solid proposals that we think will save a lot of jobs, right? Uh, and we're we're going out there with those proposals, working with industry, working with labor, and we're gonna keep doing that sector by sector. Um, and then I think uh, you know, we've also been to coming out with obviously solid policy on things like grocery prices on those basics. But you are gonna see more of it, uh, and I'll and you're gonna start to see it more rolled out in the fall as we head back into the legislature. We're gonna be very focused, we're gonna be very targeted. Um, and uh and I think also I should be very clear like we're getting this, these ideas are coming from the people that we meet with in communities. We are getting it because we are we are listening to actual people out there in community. I think that's what differentiates it. It makes for frankly good policy solutions in in in contrast with what uh the government here in Ontario is providing, which is not solutions, it's just a lot of advertisements.

Nikki Hill 39:40

Yeah, that's great space for an opposition party. We're gonna talk a little bit about later in the show about VC conservatives and you know, versus the the clickbait to versus going into good policy solutions. And I think that dynamic comes up all the place. So good teamwork there. Um, but let's we're gonna flip a little bit. So you are a young ministerial staffer in the 1990s Ontario NDP government. It always horrifies me when I talk about myself on the same equivalent here in BC in the late 90s. Um, but of course, you learned how government works when we do take on those roles and you see up close how some of those successes work, where the mistakes happen with elected politicians and in the bureaucracy. So, you know, today we see Ontario's court system can't organize trials on time, even for really serious crimes. You got the Metrolinks, can't hit a deadline, fire fighting capacity, decayed, important skilled train training money, it was a slush fund. So lots of signs here of dysfunction that you can point to. Do you think this this cynical politics we've been talking about has damaged the Ontario public service, not just the front lines, but in functioning it? And what would be your leadership approach to making it, you know, clearly needing some more effectiveness and and go back in that reputational aspect?

Marit Stiles 40:56

Yeah, I mean it's it's interesting, right? Like right now, um I would say first of all, there's there's a ton of like just fantastic, great people out there in the Ontario public service. And uh and it is very obvious when you look right now at the wildfires that are bar burning in northwestern Ontario. Yeah. Uh it I was just up in Thunder Bay this week and um I was uh you know, meet I met with a few wildland firefighters. Uh we've been working very closely with them actually for years, uh, trying to get the government to both restore some of the funds that they've cut from uh wildland firefighting and also to uh to to you know develop a longer-term strategy, which was is completely missing. Um but so as an example, I I'd use that as an example here because the truth is that the the Doug Ford and his government have been gutting the Ontario public sector, the public sector for years. Uh they have been gutting it, uh it's been sort of systemic. And um and unfortunately, we are seeing the results of that, as you mentioned, in many respects, whether you're talking about the the failures, the delays, the over cost overruns of these P3 projects that you see under Metrolinks, uh, the disasters that we've seen unfold in other projects, uh, the state of our healthcare system in Ontario, the state of our public education system, um, these, this, this chipping away. And I I have to say, you know, I I am one of those who to some you know extent believes that this was the plan. You know, they to like when it comes to uh healthcare, uh they were they're interested in privatizing big chunks of our healthcare system and they have been on that track for a long time. They they do want it to sort of fail so they can figure out how to you know give their buddies a bit of a bit of a few contracts on the side or carve up our public health care and education systems. Um and but I think it's beyond that because it's also really a top-heavy system. And and Metrolinx is a very, very good example of that because Metrolinx has now, I believe it's about 200 vice presidents. So actually, there are like it's a very top-heavy situation. And you know, and again, the more that they contract out services and carve up our our public sector, our public services, the more that their friends, that these big corporate guys are making, are, are, are making millions, billions even off of taxpayers in Ontario who are falling, you know, who are finding that these systems are not working for them anywhere. And and with that, it reduces people's confidence in public services.

Nikki Hill 43:36

Yeah.

Marit Stiles 43:37

Guess what? So we all know this game. We've all seen this before, and we knew it was coming. Um, and I think what's interesting right now is that you know, going back to the beginning of this interview, you know, when people hear like, okay, so Doug Ford wants a private jet. So my you know, my say my mom, I take her to the emergency the other day. We wait for 12 hours, and then she's got a bed in a hallway for two days before she gets admitted. Something is deeply wrong in our system. And Doug Ford's focus is always on him and his legacy and his luxury and his lifestyle. And it is never on actually delivering a better system for people. And so again, I would just say I really think we have to stop overpaying executives. We have to stop overpaying consultants. We have to go back to empowering uh experts and those frontline workers. And that's going to be what solves a lot of the problems in our health in our in our public sector. And I do think people are open to that message because, you know, again, they see that things aren't like let's also be clear, this is not a fiscally responsible government. This isn't like the NDP governments that we have or the uh the the NDP governments that have you know had extremely strong fiscally responsible records across Ontario, across Canada over the years. This is a government that is racking up just massive debt. And um and it is actually a very fiscally irresponsible government and 200 vice presidents at MetroLeaks certainly uh paint that picture.

Tom Parkin 45:16

Yeah, that's a lot of salaries. Final question, Mark.

Marit Stiles 45:19

Yeah.

Tom Parkin 45:20

Uh if you can break this cycle of cynical politics, where do you want to take Ontario? What are some of the key steps that you think need to happen to get people in all regions feeling, you know, hopeful about this place again?

Marit Stiles 45:36

Yeah. Well, I mean, first of all, um uh you know, I want to say I don't think people are asking for very much. And I think that getting back to some of those basic things uh is really what matters for people. So you'll you'll notice, like we we we've talked a lot about I've talked just now a lot about the price of groceries because that is what I hear at the doors every day. So I think we have to really um dig in, and we will be digging in, on on delivering what regular people need right now. Uh they need things to be a little less expensive. Uh we need to make sure that like the big grocery giants aren't uh exploiting people and and jacking up the prices. Like we have to get this under control. Um and then I think as well, um, that's things like like you know, controlling rent, which is I would say used to be at one time seemed to be an issue that really resonated in a place like Toronto, but now is an issue everywhere across this province. Um but the other piece of it, I guess, is um so we're gonna remind people about the good things that that government can do in all of those respects in healthcare, in education, and in just managing the cost of things. But I think the other piece you you you nailed there in your question, Tom, is is that these um these regional differences are really important. So people in Northern Ontario, they need safe highways. And you know, we we did a tour this year uh where we highlighted that. Um, number of uh our northern members of provincial parliament and myself on the road, you know, actually explaining to people why it matters when these highways shut completely down and uh the lives that are being lost and the people who have paid a price. And uh and we're gonna fix those highways.

Nikki Hill 47:17

Yeah.

Marit Stiles 47:17

And we're gonna focus on the actual priorities of people in Ontario, whether you're a farmer in southwestern Ontario or you're uh somebody living in the Ottawa region, whether you're a northerner or somebody living in Scarborough or downtown Toronto, you know, actually focusing in on those very specific things that people have felt left behind on, I think is gonna be really important. And ending these absolutely ridiculous projects that this premier is obsessed with that actually deliver nothing for people. I mean, you you can't it I will say you cannot make this stuff up, right? And I will be reversing course on some of this ridiculous stuff that he's wasting, you know, this spa in downtown Toronto that he wants to, that he's spending Ontario taxpayer dollars on. Like we have to have better priorities, but I think just focusing in on what people's real actual needs are right now and reminding people that they deserve good government that is gonna des deliver to them not just in emergencies, but every day.

Nikki Hill 48:15

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining us. It was great to get you on. I'm glad it worked this time. And we're wishing you all the best of luck in all of this work and building that vision for Ontario. Uh, it looks like there's a great plan underway and a great team. So we're gonna take a quick break and come back with Love It or Heave It. Thanks so much. Before

Tom loves the troubles in PC paradise

Nikki Hill 48:51

we wrap, we're coming to the part of the show that we like to call Love It or Heave It, about something you love and would like to keep, or something you'd like to heave and forget forever. What's on your mind this week, Tom?

Tom Parkin 49:03

Well, I am loving the trouble in Ontario PC Paradise. We've talked about how Ford's ongoing MPP expense scandal has been driven by the NDP, but not all of it. And that's the that's especially the piece that I'm loving. The NDP did put out the story about PC MPP Stan Show charging up sixteen thousand dollars for downtown hotel stays, downtown Toronto hotel stays, even though he lives just six kilometers from the legislature. They did put out the story that 20 MPPs were doing this, uh, and the total cost was $120,000 to taxpayers. They did put out the story that Ford's house leader had asked the Board of Internal Economy to change expense rules to allow all these. Uh those stories resulted, as you recall, in Cho losing his $215,000 a year minister's job and the 20 MPs being told to repay $120,000 in hotel expenses from their own pockets.

Nikki Hill 50:02

Yeah.

Tom Parkin 50:03

But the trouble in PC Paradise that I love is revealed in a news story I confirm the NDP did not put out. Last week, midweek, Global News reported and quoted from an email from the Ford government whip to Toronto PC MPPs, encouraging them to stay in hotels overnight during night sittings. That story was not from the NDP. Somebody else supplied that story to the and the email to the reporter. Presumably a PC MPP who received the email and wanted to take a swipe or snipe uh at their own party for I I guess feeling like he'd been betrayed, right? Yeah. Go ahead and do this. Oh, wait a minute, you got that didn't work out so well, now you're gonna pay. Okay, so some some bad feelings here. Not everyone's singing kumbaya at the Doug Ford camp. So Nikki, we'll you know, we'll see how this one develops. Um just one other, I think, tactical thing tied to this is is noteworthy. Uh Doug Ford is certainly gonna think twice before he tries to use night sittings again. Uh he's used them to push through bills and reduce the number of sitting days, less question periods. Right. But if he uses night sittings again, he'll dredge up some unhappy memories that um his caucus he'd prefer his caucus for debt.

Nikki Hill 51:23

That's probably good news for some people, not to have so many night sittings.

Tom Parkin 51:27

Well, it's it's it it was a tactic that they were obviously using to reduce exposure uh in the legislature because when the legislature's in, it's tough on governments, right? Because they have to answer questions. He he likes his long summer breaks where he hides. So it's gonna be less easy for him to do that now.

Nikki Hill 51:43

Don't we all, Doug? Okay.

Tom Parkin 51:47

What about you? What are you

Nikki heaving more disinformation from BC Conservatives

Tom Parkin 51:49

what are you uh loving or heaving this week, Nikki?

Nikki Hill 51:51

Well, I feel like this is in my permanent rotation of heaves, but I'm gonna give another heave to disinformation for political gain, or maybe it's just for clicks, and then the confusion and the polarization it it causes in public discourse. So, you know, we've we've talked about this on the show, not new. Certainly a growing debate, I think, about um how political messaging crosses over into misinformation. So, how parties use some of the issues they're trying to push and get them out there. So, you know, last week the BC conservatives posted on their social media, I think it's still up there, even though it's been proven to be incorrect, that they had succeeded. So it was a victory lap that they'd succeeded in pushing the BC government to discute discontinue funding for a program that, you know, unfortunately has been in the crosshairs for a while, both of um, you know, political debate, but also misinformation. And that is what we call SOGI. It's the sexual orientation and gender identity programs in our school system. So there's always been, I think, a high level of misinformation here and it's sort of building some fear around this program. If you're uh particularly from the BC conservatives who saw it through the election campaign in 2024, not new. We're seeing it. Uh, there's now a new party leader for um Center BC, which is former BC Liberal, BC United folks. And so the person they just appointed leader actually brought Soji in when he was a BC Liberal cabinet minister. And so it's an ongoing discussion. But really, what the program does itself is ensure schools are inclusive and safe spaces for students of all sexual orientations and gender identities, and it helps educators with those goals. So, you know, anti-bullying, good things. The BCNDP Minister of Education came out to make it clear that the program's not canceled, that the anti-bullying resources and tools are still available, and school districts have also come out and said that they are still making sure that these services are supplied. I do want to say one of the things I think that there was, you know, maybe less just more confusion and not understanding the program was that there were funding changes from the provincial government to elite organization. So we should acknowledge that, you know, one of these nonprofits that was helping with the program and was key in developing it did lose some funding. And I think that's where this all came into the public domain again, but in a straight out um full misinformation that they've been called on pretty openly in the media as well. So I think really, though, what we're coming back to is again here is that when misinformation's in the picture at all, we lose the debate here on a policy or even funding allocations that are, you know, needed by organizations more than ever right now. So, like we've talked about issues like SOGI are being used to fuel culture war politics instead of inform public debate. So, you know, when we look at political parties and and their obligation, I think, to accurately represent decisions versus exaggerating claims for political gain. I think we're gonna see a really long and heated provincial pre-election period in BC. I say long because we're targeting for 2028 still. Uh, so it's not gonna be the last of these issues we see, but I'm giving a big heave to this and hoping parties actually come up with some solid policy and not these clickbait attempts to get the public riled up.

Tom Parkin 55:07

It's interesting. Um what's the political advantage for the new BC conservative leader from calling this thing a dead issue? You think they want to keep it alive, or maybe this is their way, or maybe this is their way of keeping it alive to get everybody saying no, it's still there.

Nikki Hill 55:26

Kind of a perverse way of going around politics, but yeah, so just it's like it's a it's been made into a complicated issue where really I think it's actually quite a simple program. Um and and did have some impact in terms of misinformation in some key constituencies in the last election where you know parents had the wrong idea about what it meant to them and their kids, and you know, Polly put that into some of their voting choices as well. So there is political benefit to the BC conservatives, but there's a downside here to kids, and there's a downside here to truth and political policy making.

Tom Parkin 55:58

Yeah. I I worked in the Manitoba campaign a few years ago and uh in a Winnipeg, a couple of Winnipeg ridings, and there was a very active anti-Soji campaign coming from third parties, very conservative third parties. Yeah. Um, mostly in uh non-English languages. Yeah. So it was very subterranean and targeted. Uh so Yeah, absolutely same.

Nikki Hill 56:23

Yeah.

Tom Parkin 56:23

It's a strange uh it we by the time that the central campaign, actually the NDP central campaign, uh learned about it, it was difficult to say how far it had spread and how much impact it had made.

Nikki Hill 56:34

So something to watch.

Tom Parkin 56:37

Uh and really I don't think we've got it uh anybody's really got a strong case for how to combat these kind of submarine tactics, subterranean tactics. I don't know.

Nikki Hill 56:50

No, absolutely.

Tom Parkin 56:51

Yeah. Anyway, well you've heard from Nikki and from me. You can email us at left east to west at gmail.com and talk about what you're loving at heaving. And please tap the follow button on your podcast player to get reminders for upcoming interviews. We've got Jared Walker from the Canadians for Tax Fairness week next week. Uh then we've got a break week, and then we're back with um B. Brusk, the president of the Canadian Labor Congress. So those will all be very interesting to listen to, I hope. Have a great week.

Nikki Hill 57:19

Okay.

Tom Parkin 57:20

See ya.

Doug Hamilton 57:25

Thanks for joining Left East to West with hosts Nikki Hill and Tom Parker. We'd love to hear your comments, ratings, follows, and shares. It helps people find us. To become a Left East to West community member and to help us reach even more Canadians. Subscribe using the link in the show notes. You can watch us on YouTube or left wherever you get your favorite podcasts. Just search for Left East to West and subscribe. I'm Doug Hamilton signing off for Left East to West. Let's see you next time.